Follow on to the Thor (Nevada) class. Bigger hull to hold four triples, no other changes.
Hela
Surtur
(https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/research/histories/ship-histories/danfs/p/pennsylvania-ii/_jcr_content/body/image_1264231298.img.jpg/1481721282281.jpg)
Hela (Arizona), Norse Battleship laid down 1913
Displacement:
28,797 t light; 30,724 t standard; 31,881 t normal; 32,806 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(600.00 ft / 600.00 ft) x 93.50 ft x (30.00 / 30.75 ft)
(182.88 m / 182.88 m) x 28.50 m x (9.14 / 9.37 m)
Armament:
12 - 13.98" / 355 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,376.70lbs / 624.46kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
22 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
22 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
22 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
10 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 5.98lbs / 2.71kg shells, 400 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1.64lbs / 0.74kg shells, 500 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,200 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,822 lbs / 8,084 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 230.00 ft / 70.10 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.00" / 51 mm 375.00 ft / 114.30 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 80.00 ft / 24.38 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 8.00" / 203 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 3.00" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 3.00" / 76 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 15.00" / 381 mm, Aft 8.00" / 203 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 36,730 shp / 27,400 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,082 tons
Complement:
1,192 - 1,550
Cost:
£3.081 million / $12.326 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,703 tons, 11.6 %
- Guns: 3,703 tons, 11.6 %
Armour: 12,165 tons, 38.2 %
- Belts: 4,232 tons, 13.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 833 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 4,170 tons, 13.1 %
- Armour Deck: 2,433 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Towers: 498 tons, 1.6 %
Machinery: 1,439 tons, 4.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,424 tons, 32.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,084 tons, 9.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,065 tons, 3.3 %
- Hull below water: 260 tons
- Hull above water: 260 tons
- On freeboard deck: 175 tons
- Above deck: 370 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,666 lbs / 21,621 Kg = 34.9 x 14.0 " / 355 mm shells or 7.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.89
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.51
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.663 / 0.666
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 33
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m, 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 25.00 ft / 7.62 m, 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 21.08 ft / 6.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.8 %
Waterplane Area: 43,490 Square feet or 4,040 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 977 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.70
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
-260t Damage Control
-260t Climate Control
-100t Flag Facilities
-75t LR wireless + Remote Sensing
-370t FC
Seems reasonable.
Stacks up well with the Audax class a year this design's senior and is consistent with prior Norse practice.
Logical progress
Bigger G-class. Significantly upgraded armament and slight boosts to speed and range.
H-class, Norse Destroyer laid down 1914
Displacement:
890 t light; 932 t standard; 1,025 t normal; 1,100 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(290.00 ft / 290.00 ft) x 27.50 ft x (10.00 / 10.52 ft)
(88.39 m / 88.39 m) x 8.38 m x (3.05 / 3.21 m)
Armament:
1 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal gun - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck and hoist mount, 1914 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
3 - 3.94" / 100 mm 50.0 cal guns - 32.30lbs / 14.65kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1914 Model
3 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 5.98lbs / 2.71kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 177 lbs / 80 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,041 shp / 16,443 Kw = 30.25 kts
Range 5,050nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 169 tons
Complement:
89 - 117
Cost:
£0.154 million / $0.616 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 52 tons, 5.1 %
- Guns: 52 tons, 5.1 %
Machinery: 515 tons, 50.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 266 tons, 25.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 135 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 58 tons, 5.7 %
- Hull below water: 5 tons
- Hull above water: 5 tons
- On freeboard deck: 18 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
248 lbs / 112 Kg = 4.7 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.84
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.450 / 0.459
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.55 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 16.50 ft / 5.03 m, 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 16.50 ft / 5.03 m, 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
- Aft deck: 50.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 11.63 ft / 3.54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121.3 %
Waterplane Area: 5,087 Square feet or 473 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 146 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.67
- Overall: 0.57
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
-5t Damage control
-5t Climate Control
-25t LR Wireless
-5t FC
-18t 4 x 53cm TT + 2 reloads
I kinda like the mixed-battery design Foxy's got.
Were the original stats for the I-class destroyers ever posted, can't seem to find them.
Improved version of previous class, homogeneous 155mm main battery, more torpedoes, more speed and range.
Danae, Norse Light Cruiser laid down 1915
Displacement:
4,801 t light; 4,973 t standard; 5,408 t normal; 5,756 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(455.00 ft / 455.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (16.00 / 16.79 ft)
(138.68 m / 138.68 m) x 15.24 m x (4.88 / 5.12 m)
Armament:
6 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 120.29lbs / 54.56kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1915 Model
6 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.19lbs / 1.45kg shells, 450 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 734 lbs / 333 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 65.00 ft / 19.81 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 132 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 0.00" / 0 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 51,011 shp / 38,054 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,850nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 783 tons
Complement:
314 - 409
Cost:
£0.750 million / $3.001 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 217 tons, 4.0 %
- Guns: 217 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 740 tons, 13.7 %
- Belts: 409 tons, 7.6 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 288 tons, 5.3 %
- Conning Tower: 27 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,932 tons, 35.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,663 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 607 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 249 tons, 4.6 %
- Hull below water: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 64 tons
- Above deck: 85 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,427 lbs / 1,554 Kg = 30.2 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.527
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 24.00 %, 25.00 ft / 7.62 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Aft deck: 41.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 17.25 ft / 5.26 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 130.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149.4 %
Waterplane Area: 15,439 Square feet or 1,434 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 350 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 1.43
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
-50t FC and Remote Sensing
-50t LR Wireless and Flag Facilities
-50t Climate Control
-50t Damage Control
-24t Torpedo Tubes 4 x 21" + 4 Reloads
It's a good, solid design. Should serve the Norse well.
Good scout design to do the job.
A new destroyer class aimed at pursuing the needs of the Norse People all around the world as required - either in small groups, or in support of larger vessels.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Garm_%281913%29.jpg)
Snekkja, Norse Destroyer laid down 1916
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,570 t standard; 1,824 t normal; 2,028 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(369.89 ft / 360.89 ft) x 32.81 ft x (12.47 / 13.42 ft)
(112.74 m / 110.00 m) x 10.00 m x (3.80 / 4.09 m)
Armament:
2 - 6.10" / 155 mm 45.0 cal guns - 114.59lbs / 51.98kg shells, 125 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
2 - 6.10" / 155 mm 45.0 cal guns - 114.59lbs / 51.98kg shells, 125 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount
4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 4,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 459 lbs / 208 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 35,068 shp / 26,161 Kw = 32.00 kts, TrialSpeed 32.5 kts
Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 458 tons
Complement:
139 - 181
Cost:
£0.346 million / $1.384 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 78 tons, 4.3 %
- Guns: 78 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 13 tons, 0.7 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 979 tons, 53.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 392 tons, 21.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 324 tons, 17.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 37 tons, 2.0 %
- Hull above water: 4 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
425 lbs / 193 Kg = 3.7 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.53
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 9.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 46 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.86
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.432 / 0.446
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m
- Average freeboard: 12.82 ft / 3.91 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.7 %
Waterplane Area: 7,449 Square feet or 692 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 64 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 156 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weight:
-- 27t 3 x 3 21" Torpedos in swivel mounts, centreline
-- 7t 1912 FC (split between above water and above deck)
-- 3t Night Fighting Equipment
I think its going to be a much to lively platform for 155's and the crew is likey to get worn out quickly schlepping those rounds about. Sure, the 155 is going to end anythign sort of a 1500t can in one hit, but getting that hit might prove more challenging than with a smaller gun that can fire faster for longer. Also, the design does not have great seakeeping, so its theoretically fast speed will degrade much faster in a seaway than a comprible boat with higher seakeeping. I'd drop down to something in the 120-130mm range (I think you have such a gun available) and turn the reserve into more freeboard.
I'll think on it before I commit to building anything, and I'd welcome more feedback. I know there are many other Destroyers around with less than perfect seakeeping, and it's only a little below average for steadiness firing those things.
In a destroyer, ending the fight sooner rather than later feels more important than getting lots of rounds on target - because in a sustained gunfight they're just as likely to be taking their own knocks too, and a destroyer doesn't have that kind of staying power.
I'm more ambivalent about her sister-class the Skeid, which is emphatically not designed for Atlantic cannonball transits but does have other attractions:
Skeid, Norse Destroyer laid down 1916
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,570 t standard; 1,653 t normal; 1,719 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(369.89 ft / 360.89 ft) x 32.81 ft x (12.47 / 12.79 ft)
(112.74 m / 110.00 m) x 10.00 m x (3.80 / 3.90 m)
Armament:
3 - 6.10" / 155 mm 45.0 cal guns - 114.59lbs / 51.98kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
1 raised mount
1 - 6.10" / 155 mm 45.0 cal gun - 114.59lbs / 51.98kg shells, 125 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1916 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 4,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 459 lbs / 208 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 41,518 shp / 30,973 Kw = 34.00 kts, TS 34.5 kts
Range 1,600nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 149 tons
Complement:
129 - 168
Cost:
£0.342 million / $1.367 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 78 tons, 4.7 %
- Guns: 78 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 19 tons, 1.2 %
- Armament: 19 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 961 tons, 58.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 395 tons, 23.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 153 tons, 9.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 46 tons, 2.8 %
- Hull above water: 4 tons
- On freeboard deck: 39 tons
- Above deck: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
322 lbs / 146 Kg = 2.8 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.86
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.392 / 0.397
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
- Aft deck: 40.00 %, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m
- Average freeboard: 12.82 ft / 3.91 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 201.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.1 %
Waterplane Area: 7,249 Square feet or 673 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 33 lbs/sq ft or 161 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 0.55
Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weight:
-- 36t 4 x 3 21" Torpedos in swivel mounts, centreline
-- 7t 1912 FC (split between above water and above deck)
-- 3t Night Fighting Equipment
Quote from: snip on April 14, 2021, 11:58:25 PM
I think its going to be a much to lively platform for 155's and the crew is likey to get worn out quickly schlepping those rounds about. Sure, the 155 is going to end anythign sort of a 1500t can in one hit, but getting that hit might prove more challenging than with a smaller gun that can fire faster for longer. Also, the design does not have great seakeeping, so its theoretically fast speed will degrade much faster in a seaway than a comprible boat with higher seakeeping. I'd drop down to something in the 120-130mm range (I think you have such a gun available) and turn the reserve into more freeboard.
Snekkja mk2Actually just doing some small tweaks to Performance and I think this answers most of your concerns barring installing a deck-and-hoist mount system:
Snekkja, Norse Destroyer laid down 1916
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,570 t standard; 1,824 t normal; 2,028 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(369.89 ft / 360.89 ft) x 32.81 ft x (12.47 / 13.42 ft)
(112.74 m / 110.00 m) x 10.00 m x (3.80 / 4.09 m)
Armament:
2 - 6.10" / 155 mm 45.0 cal guns - 114.59lbs / 51.98kg shells, 125 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
2 - 6.10" / 155 mm 45.0 cal guns - 114.59lbs / 51.98kg shells, 125 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount
4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 4,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 459 lbs / 208 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 35,068 shp / 26,161 Kw = 32.00 kts, 32.5 kts in Trial
Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 458 tons
Complement:
139 - 181
Cost:
£0.346 million / $1.384 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 78 tons, 4.3 %
- Guns: 78 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 13 tons, 0.7 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 979 tons, 53.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 392 tons, 21.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 324 tons, 17.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 37 tons, 2.0 %
- Hull above water: 4 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
419 lbs / 190 Kg = 3.7 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.49
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 10.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.35
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.93
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.432 / 0.446
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m, 8.56 ft / 2.61 m
- Average freeboard: 12.82 ft / 3.91 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.7 %
Waterplane Area: 7,449 Square feet or 692 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 64 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 156 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weight:
-- 27t 3 x 3 21" Torpedos in swivel mounts, centreline
-- 7t 1912 FC (split between above water and above deck)
-- 3t Night Fighting Equipment
QuoteCramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Your DD is always poor seaboat with poor perf. with speed attack...
Reduce the speed to about 30kts & calculate the top speed.
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7032.0.html
Have confortable sea qualities is important to have good result during a battle.
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7641.0.html
Hearsay had it that a certain degree of slow seakeeping was fine in a DD - and that some ships had been designed and built with a Seakeeping well below 0.9. That being said, I'm fine with taking care of my brave lads over long sea voyages!
I also checked and confirmed the shell weight and ensured these weren't classed as heavy:
QuoteAs a practical matter, shells between 60 and 95kg are heavy and the ROF will slowly decrease as the crew gets tired. Power assist will delay this. Hoists are highly recommended.
Shells over 90kg are difficult to handle and are slow to handload. Power hoists and ramming with a turret is recommended.
Bearing these tips in mind, I'm happy to present
Snekkja mk3.
Any further useful input? Not sure how many rounds of design we usually do for these.
Snekkja, Norse Destroyer laid down 1916
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,588 t standard; 1,846 t normal; 2,052 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(401.90 ft / 393.70 ft) x 32.81 ft x (12.47 / 13.38 ft)
(122.50 m / 120.00 m) x 10.00 m x (3.80 / 4.08 m)
Armament:
2 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 120.29lbs / 54.56kg shells, 180 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
2 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 120.29lbs / 54.56kg shells, 180 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount
12 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 4,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 483 lbs / 219 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 31,939 shp / 23,826 Kw = 32.43 kts
Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 465 tons
Complement:
140 - 183
Cost:
£0.342 million / $1.368 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 92 tons, 5.0 %
- Guns: 92 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 13 tons, 0.7 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 934 tons, 50.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 389 tons, 21.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 346 tons, 18.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 71 tons, 3.8 %
- Hull above water: 24 tons
- On freeboard deck: 39 tons
- Above deck: 8 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
410 lbs / 186 Kg = 3.6 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.401 / 0.416
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.86 ft / 2.70 m, 8.86 ft / 2.70 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.86 ft / 2.70 m, 8.86 ft / 2.70 m
- Average freeboard: 12.20 ft / 3.72 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.8 %
Waterplane Area: 7,957 Square feet or 739 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 68 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 153 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.87
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc Weight:
-- 36t 4 x 3 21" Torpedos in swivel mounts, centreline
-- 7t 1912 FC (split between above water and above deck)
-- 3t Night Fighting Equipment
-- 25t Long Range Wireless (between hull above water and above deck)
Quote from: snip on April 14, 2021, 11:58:25 PM
I think its going to be a much to lively platform for 155's and the crew is likey to get worn out quickly schlepping those rounds about. Sure, the 155 is going to end anythign sort of a 1500t can in one hit, but getting that hit might prove more challenging than with a smaller gun that can fire faster for longer. Also, the design does not have great seakeeping, so its theoretically fast speed will degrade much faster in a seaway than a comprible boat with higher seakeeping. I'd drop down to something in the 120-130mm range (I think you have such a gun available) and turn the reserve into more freeboard.
We've both played around with the larger-caliber guns on DDs. And I think you've settled on a shorter 140, while I at least temporarily ditched the 150 in favor of a ferociously rapid twin 100 and then a balanced 130.
However, in the case of this particular class, the big gun is growing on me. The North Sea and the Baltic is a lot different. Ranges are fairly short, targets fairly fleeting, visibility is often utterly crap. Having a gun where 1 hit kills are possible, and 1 hit cripples are likely, sort of makes sense in this particular set of weather conditions.
To make a comparison, a balanced DD gun is like having a 9mm. Good capacity, good follow up shots, etc. etc. Going with the 'maximum' DD gun is like having a Desert Eagle, short barreled 500 Magnum, etc. Sure you lose capacity. Sure your follow up shots are slower. Sure your comparative accuracy is going to tank outside of 10 yards. But if you run into the latter in a back alley at night, it's going to be very ugly.
I have a different preference for main guns, which is fine.
I feel like the class would benefit from some tonnage allocated to ASW capabilities, though.
True. It's more of a 'DD Leader' or 'Torpedo Boat/Destroyer Destroyer'. I guess it's going to be a question of whether K will be going a route with subchasers and fleet destroyers, or going the route of trying to make all of them balanced.
Overall, there aren't really all that many submarines worldwide. I mean I don't think any nation has more than 40, and WW1 Germany had something along the lines of 5 times that during its most successful times.
Taking advantage of some new/upcoming research and the new ASW rules, the Skeid-class destroyer - a shorter legged vessel designed to operate mainly in small independent divisions in friendly territorial waters (and to keep an eye out for unwelcome submarines in same).
Skeid, Norse Destroyer laid down 1917
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,604 t standard; 1,678 t normal; 1,738 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(401.70 ft / 393.70 ft) x 32.81 ft x (11.97 / 12.24 ft)
(122.44 m / 120.00 m) x 10.00 m x (3.65 / 3.73 m)
Armament:
6 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 120.29lbs / 54.56kg shells, 170 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck centre
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 4,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 723 lbs / 328 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 36,369 shp / 27,131 Kw = 34.06 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 135 tons
Complement:
130 - 170
Cost:
£0.390 million / $1.561 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 102 tons, 6.1 %
- Guns: 102 tons, 6.1 %
Armour: 10 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 885 tons, 52.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 435 tons, 25.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 179 tons, 10.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 67 tons, 4.0 %
- Hull below water: 10 tons
- Hull above water: 6 tons
- On freeboard deck: 44 tons
- Above deck: 7 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
336 lbs / 153 Kg = 3.0 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.385
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Average freeboard: 12.62 ft / 3.85 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 194.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.1 %
Waterplane Area: 7,846 Square feet or 729 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 167 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.06
- Overall: 0.54
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
8t - 80 90kg depth charges, rails inc.
10t - FC
3t - Night Fighting Equipment
36t - 4 x 3 21" Torpedos in swivel mounts, centreline
5t hydrophones (basic)
2t - 2 ASW Twin Kites
1t - 10 ASW harpoons + locker
2t - 120m2 Electro-contact mined nets
Your BC is below 0.38, also twin 155mm mounts without mount and hoist won't have good RoF.
Foxy beat me to it.
Fixed up the BC. On RoF, the rounds aren't classed as "heavy" (being under 60kg) so I'd expect it to take a good few minutes before RoF begins to slow.
And if the destroyer is in a sustained gunnery duel for 30+ minutes and is still fit to continue the engagement (neither ship having taken heavy enough damage to withdraw) I'll accept the slowing RoF and keep the longer range and heavier rounds that make it less likely to be the Skeid taking the crippling hits.
Since fixing the BC meant losing the 1.22 Seakeeping, I managed to coax top speed above 34 kn.
155 twins on a 1500t DD are going to be not-fun to use. Looking at the difficulties the KM had with the much larger Z classes armed with 150s, I dont think these weapons are going to be very serviceable at all. I think the range is also far to low for a 1916 design, you dont have a lot of wiggle room for high speed operation.
Also, I think that 3 twin 155 mounts plus four tripple tubes all on centerline is very tight for only 120m. Finding historical contemporaries is difficult, but the trend Im seeing is that most destoryers in this size range have only a pair of tube groups (typicly quads). I'd be skeptical about it all fitting with room for the uptakes and such for the massive engines.
Looking at the Fubiki and Porter classes, it should barely fit... Both have 1 less mount on 4-9m less length. It'll be cramped but doable, especially if the TT are moved to side mounted like the four stackers or dropped down to 3 mounts. The Pilums also have nearly the same issues.