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Thread for discussion of the 1914 Roman-Aztec War. IC News & Stories here (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7547.0.html).

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Are you guys scripting battles or is Kirk gaming them?

Kirk will be gaming, but we may script some stuff later on.

I have a feeling the ratio of sim to script will shift towards script as the war winds down.  But early on, likely to be all simmed, at least in the broad strokes.

As Tac says, it may shift as things go on.
I'm aiming to play out the first fights on Tuesday/Weds.

A reminder to always properly sight your guns...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F8p3BvetSA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F8p3BvetSA)

I have a feeling cavalry will be a tad more important than in OTL.

Quote from: Desertfox on October 23, 2020, 11:19:57 AM

I have a feeling cavalry will be a tad more important than in OTL.

Considering the success of Russian Cavalry, I think where the battlespace is big enough for them, they could be very effective.
Of course the last successful Cavalry charge was in 1942...by the Italians...against the Russians.  Oddities.

So fighting in hurricanes is a bad idea. I knew Foxy was involved somehow :P

Snip and TacCovert have asked me to post the Commentary and then Battle description in the OOC thread.

I feel the Battle Commentary is a useful preamble to the Battle....which is a long read.

Overall,

I think the Aztec had slightly above average luck, while the Romans had average.

Notable occurrences were the Romans lost 2 destroyers very quickly, an later had 2 eliminated by 7cm Crits for "3x structural damage".
As a 7cm did 40pts damage, and the E-Class could take 160, those hits alone were crippling, and when combined with even 1 more..fatal.

The Dividorum were less effective than expected, both being masked by the E-Class for a while, and then middling to poor roles.

The Battleships actually rolled rather well, their effectiveness was limited by the need to change targets after swatting an MTB, but they were chewing through.
The loss of the Imperito class was unfortunate, more torpedoes 'hit' than the odds, and random target allocation put them on one vessel. Had they been strictly
to the odds, both Battleships *may* have made it.


What I find interesting is the difficulty the Aztec had when they needed to search for the Roman fleet, they wasted 20 minutes in the NE
while the Roman freighters turned and headed South.
I expected the Aztec had read the Chinese version of the Cheju-do battle, and knew the Chinese led their MTBs with DDs, copying that.

Realistically, it was the Roman E-Class DDs which headed North to engage the Aztec, which pulled the rest of the Aztec forces South, and into conflict
with the Roman fleet.
It made logical sense, because in the darkness the sentry could only see a dozen vessels forming the southern edge of the Aztec force.
Jad the entire Roman force immediately headed, SE, they may have broken contact.

However, with the information the Romans had, they mounted an effective defense. Had there been 10 more E-Class destroyers, the result would likely be a Aztec disaster. The successive lines of defenders engaged and destroyed ~30 vessels.  This was an adaptation of the Japanese effort in the last battle, and essentially meant they were chewing through the attackers as fast as they could resolve FC on them. 

Ironically, the MTBs are so small that basically any hit is a kill, be it 140, 100 or 75mm.  With the Roman 14cm, a hit also killed a Scimitar, while a 10cm tended to cripple.  So the results would have been similar if the Aztec had thrown 50 DDs at the Romans, just the cost to the Aztec would be higher.

Ironically, had they been all Scimitar class, the number of destroyed vessels would be similar, but the tonnage cost far higher.


Erratta :

Aztec :
2 x 'Scout' class SC
8x 'Scimitar' class DD
50x MTB-A

Roman :
2 x Imperito Class PD
2 x Divodurum Class PC
10 x E-Class DD

Predawn : 0353
Daylight : 0523

Weather : Was Sea state 2, now 3, with a Tropical storm rolling in from the SE.  The storm is passing over Vilnus territory, but the very limited radio broadcasts do not make understood.
Note : I place a limit of Sea State 4 on MTB ops / Amphibious landings.

This is the battle description portion.

The sea state has worsened from 2 to 3, a 10 knot wind with large wavelets and some breaking crests, but well within the MTB's abilities. The Aztec Strike is timed for the predawn hours, between 0323 and 0523, namely 445am.  Columns of MTBs are led by Destroyers, while Cruisers bring up the rear. Having steamed through areas well charted by them, they arrive on schedule.  Seeking to catch the Romans against the rising Sun, they aim to pass North of Grand Turk, then fan out East and South looking for the Romans. While the Destroyers do not train with the MTBs, they do have both radios and chart rooms for coordination, so the burden falls on the MTBs to follow.

The Romans, having safely waited the night out at sea, were planning to return to the beach shortly after dawn to resume off loading. At 445am they were 11 nm away from the beaches, using the growing light to reform the flotilla.

At that time, the scouting Destroyer North of  Grand Turk flashed the warning.
The Roman E Class Destroyer was 4nm North Northwest  of Grand Turk when sentries saw the 2 Aztec Scimitar class, followed by 10 MTBs, looming out of the predawn at only 8000m away. Their attention was grabbed by the peal of gunfire and splashes erupting around their vessel.

For the Romans, A radio call to the Fleet, the leading destroyers only 24km away in the morning gloom, was made as the Destroyer came to battle stations and returned fire. The Boiler were already hot, and steam was fed into the boilers to bring them up to speed. In the Aztec fleet, a radio call rippled Northwards, alerting the other columns of discovery, and engines started to come up to speed.

With the E class having but one 10cm gun bearing forward, the helm was brought about to parallel the Aztec course.

The skirmish takes a long 16 minutes, the Aztec being hindered by the two destroyers firing at one target, and having difficulty making out the splashes from the small 7cm round at that range. The Roman has no problem, the new optics and the larger 10cm splashes giving them an advantage. They rapidly land two 10cm shells on the lead destroyer, sending her out of line, a third shell sets her coal stocks ablaze, and she drifts burning in the night.  The second Aztec destroyer continues the engagement with the superior Roman. They fight bravely and the Aztec is severely damaged, but an explosion collapses the Roman's aft stack and starts a fire, rendering her a wreck.

In the meantime, the Roman Admiral has been making orders, sending the frieghters on a turn south, to be then head SE, away from the Aztec force. Contingencies to scatter are given. The battlefleet will try to cover, while the beach side destroyers run north to find the Aztecs and find just how many there are.

Over the next 20 minutes, the Romans landing force turns to the South East , while the Admiral orders his warships to make 'S' turns to cut forward progress while keeping steam up. The Fleet shakes out in 3 lines, 6000m apart, each visible to the next in the early light. The Southern destroyer forms up, while the beach destroyers plow North.

To the North, the Aztec have passed the apex of the island, and now begin their grand arc heading south. When the Romans had departed the beach, they had headed NE, and this hook was designed to catch them just beyond the island, or if they were absent, sweep south and pin them to the beach in the morning, where they be hopefully be in the process of anchoring. The early skirmish had destroyed that hope while not telling them where to search. So now at 20 knots they swing south, while the stokers work hard to bring steam pressure up to full. 

At 515 in the Morning of July 7th, the two Roman 'beach' destroyers find themselves between a pair of Aztec scout cruisers off the NE tip of the island, and a pair of Aztec destroyers heading south, and followed by 30 MTBs. The Romans radio the fleet, and engage the destroyers while themselves being surrounded in a forest of shell splashes  For the Aztec, the lifting gloom finally shows a short line of Roman destroyers in the distance, the Roman screen. The destroyers communicate by radio and accelerate to flank. The following MTBs take the hint and also accelerate.


The second engagement starts badly for the Romans as the four Aztec vessels focus on the lead DD, and the two sides each loose a destroyer. With the range dropping rapidly towards 4000m, both sides find the firing soloution easy, and the two cruisers punish the Roman, but not before it cripples the remaining Scimitar class.

Dawn finds the Aztec fleet deployed as hoped, charging southeast out of the dark towards a Roman fleet limed by the rising sun. However, a line of Roman E-class Destroyers are at the edge of visibility, their number reduced to just 7.  For the first time, the Romans can get an accurate estimate of the Aztec force, 2 small cruiser from the West, and from the North 4 destroyers and 50 MTBs. While the Aztec destroyers make their best speed, the following MTBs take to wide weaving behind them as evasive maneuvers, and also to keep their position, as the MTB's decks only allow about 7miles visibility, and the Destroyers mast tops much more.

Firing at an 8m wide target, 6.6nm away, when it takes your shell 15 seconds to reach there and the target moves over 200m in that timeframe is surprisingly difficult, but twice 10cm shells impact on 40t MTBs, with adverse effects.  As the Aztecs charge, seeking the heavier warships beyond the Roman destroyers, more MTBs are struck. The Aztec 7cm counter fire lightly damages several destroyers.  As the MTBs close, their bows pitching through the chop, they open fire with their forward pintle mount 4cm, but fail to hit the targets moving 30knots at 3nm away. The distant Dividorum cruisers claim their first victim, as a 140mm shell impacts an MTB.

The wave of MTB splits to pass foe and aft of the Romans, the 10cm guns become masked and only a few can bear, but those are deadly, and the MTB losses reach 10.  The Roman gunners and FC scramble to bear on the far sides of their vessels, reaquiring targets and engaging their darting foes.  Ahead of the Roman line, the slower Aztec destroyers are in position to 'cross the T', while behind, their old Scout Cruisers prepare to do the same.  In the distance, the muzzle splashes of the Roman battleships tertiary armanent can be seen.

At point blank range, the Aztec Scimitar gunners hammer at the two lead E-Class destroyers, turning the first into a flaming wreck with a dozen quick 7cm hits, while 15 hits on the 2nd destroyer turn it into a flaming pyre. The remaining 5 Romans have to quickly veer to avoid runniEang into the wreckage at 32knots.  To add insult to injury, 4cm holes appear in some of the rest.

The 5 columns of 10 MTBs have been heavily battered, numbering 8, 5, 5, 8, 9.
The MTB columns closest to the Roman Cruisers, which have also taken the brunt of the punishment, has one take a slant angle, while the second passes in front, and the 10 MTBs combine to launch 20 torpedoes at 2000m,  while the other 3 columns hurtle towards the battleships in the distance.

The two cruisers make sharp turns away, minimizing the profile and maximizing run time. They successfully avoid most of the torpedoes from the western MTBs, with only 1 striking home, but 4 of the Eastern torpedos slam home on one cruiser. The fact one is a dud is of little help as 3 explode and the cruiser vanishes. The other cruiser is lucky, as the hit is in the stern. Unfortunately the hit destroys the stern and the crew is very concerned about sinking.

The remaining 25 MTBs bear down on the Battleships, while the Aztec Destroyers and Roman Destroyers continue to trade fire, and the Aztec cruisers slowly close the distance.   The rear Aztec destroyer is torn by shells and looses power, adrift. In return, the cruisers savage the rear E-class, with one sinking quickly, the other staggering out of line. The Aztec destroyers reduce the already damaged lead destroyer to sinking condition as well.  As the Roman destroyers pass behind the Aztec, they continue to fire, but as both sides switch targets, they fail to hit.

As the lead MTBs approach the battleships, 5 are destroyed by accurate fire, leaving but 3 in the first launch.  The 6 torpedoes cause the battleships to make a sudden turn away to comb the wakes, but a torpedo slams into the aft starboard side of one, the flash causing a fire in one of her several engine room, and with a slight loss in speed she continues, pumps going.  To the North, the two E-Class settle into a stern chase of the 3 Scimitars, but are limited by their single gun forward, which has been wrecked in the case of the lead destroyer, which is damaged. 

The battleships switch targets to the last two groups of incoming destroyers, destroying 4  before they reach launch positions. The lead Roman destroyer takes a disabling hit to the boilers. The last E-class destroyer (fails morale) breaks for the open ocean.

The 13 MTBs launch from ranges of 1500-2000m, 5 broadside to the battleships, and 8 having passed astern and launching on the port quarter. The Roman Admiral orders the ships to attempt to avoid the aft Torpedoes, as there are more of them. Only 1 of those 16 strikes, but 4 of the 10 do., but 2 are duds, one of which was Imperito's sole hit. The remaining 3 live torpedoes strike the already wounded Sublimis. One wrecks the shafts, while the other two strike sequentially abreast of Y turret, and a shaft of smoke and flame blows the roof off the turret as the ship breaks up.

The Imperito finishes it's turn and focuses on the lead Aztec Scimitar, only 9000m away. At 8000m, she finds the range, and the lead Scimitar disintigrates.

At this point, the Aztec Admiral calls off the action. His force had been told it was sacrificial, and had lost heavily, but shattered the Roman fleet. The remaining 2 destroyers and 2 old scout cruisers, (plus 26 MTBs with no torpedoes), were unlikey to be able to sink or even seriously injure the remaining battleship, but may loose all vessels. The Aztec vessels start evasive manuevers, laying smoke and heading away. The Imperito, and the lone E-Class regroup to escort the scattered merchants away.

As the morning progresses, the winds get worse and worse, and by evening the winds are over 40knots, hitting 57knots at midnight, and raging for days.   The Aztec fleet shelters in their anchorage on Grand Turk. The Roman fleet is scattered at sea, with 1 freighter lost, 2 driven ashore. The two flotillas that headed for Ocean wind up in the Bahamas, the remainder make Guantanamo Bay.  The Imperito makes harbor. The surviving E-class radios that they are foundering and is not seen again.

Losses:
3 Scimitars Sunk
1 Scimitar 60% dam – makes port
1 Scimitar 80% dam – sinks before making port. All crew off.
1 Scimitar 90% dam – adrift, lost in storm. 
2 Scimitars 25% dam
24 MTBs – sunk

1 Imperito Class – Sunk
1 Dividorum Class – Sunk
1 Dividorum Class 75% dam, ablaze– Scuttled to avoid capture, all crew off.
4 E-Class – 80% damage, scuttled to avoid capture, all crew off.
5 E-Class – sunk.
1 E-Class – lost at sea. (Seakeeping 0.64)

My thanks to Kirk for such a detailed battle.  I think this could possibly be the largest single action, if you discount some of the Sino-Japanese actions that carried over multiple days.

Ya, the detail here is wonderful. I hope anyone looking to assault a Roman port in the future is looking forward to hundreds of MTBs  ;)

Quote from: snip on October 24, 2020, 11:59:41 AM
Ya, the detail here is wonderful. I hope anyone looking to assault a Roman port in the future is looking forward to hundreds of MTBs  ;)

Same with Aztec ports.

Actually the last Sino-Japanese battle was bigger, but it was indeed in multiple parts, so was effectively 3 battles.
Had the surface combat gone forward it would have been fascinating, but I really really didn't want to wipe out the IJN, so I'm glad terms were announced.

What I keep seeing is that while MTBs should be limited - and are- in range/ seakeeping/ vulnerability / search area/ communications...
they are cheap enough that if deployed in quantity they can saturate the defenses.
Then toss in most of the targets haven't been very large or fast.

In this case the Romans had good fire control and could engage several minutes further downrange, and thanks to the searching delay, the Aztecs were not coming out of the night, so a -4 poor light modifier instead of -10 nighttime. Which is why the Romans chewed so many of the attackers.

Curiously, the older Aztec torpedo technology, the 1905, requires them to close to knife-fight ranges, but since range is a divisor in the formula SK4 uses,
that pays off in increased accuracy.  Like the latter stages of the Sino-Japanese, I was  halving the SK4 'hit %' as it seemed a-historically high. 
That accuracy may drop as better tech leads to longer ranges...oddly enough.
While I've considered adding a factor for 'fire control' to torpedo launches - ala the 'torpedo Direction center; but that would apply beyond the historic 3000m 'eyeball' FC range,
and all these launches were inside that.

Wow !!!
What movie!!!
I have the battle actions in my head.

=> Do the MTBs have a sufficient range to make the round trip from their base?
If not, they are all lost.

This seems to reinforce the small fry narrative from the Sino-Japanese War.

Indeed it does. This result (pending any other major clashes) probly just strangled the Totanis in the cradle. The Audax's might end up being the last Roman battleships, the Large Armored Cruisers may take over the role of capital ship. Because if the nature of defending coastlines is fill the sea with fish, I can build a lot of MTBs for how much gets sunk into a capital unit.

I guess on the other hand, it's also reinforcing the narrative that maybe attackers need to spend a bit of time sanitizing their target areas before bringing in the valuable fleet units and the vulnerable transports.

Quote from: Jefgte on October 24, 2020, 03:58:03 PM
Wow !!!
What movie!!!
I have the battle actions in my head.

=> Do the MTBs have a sufficient range to make the round trip from their base?
If not, they are all lost.

They do.  The battle itself was fought from within the Caicos, so even at the worst case MTBs can ride up on the sand and await refueling, or anchor in one of the many small coves.  The great limitation of MTBs is that range extending into the blue water, and that limitation is a pretty hard limit for a while.  But in the right circumstances they can be a powerful defense....if individually fragile.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 24, 2020, 06:06:24 PM
I guess on the other hand, it's also reinforcing the narrative that maybe attackers need to spend a bit of time sanitizing their target areas before bringing in the valuable fleet units and the vulnerable transports.

As a general rule I agree.  Had my squadrons run up against a sizeable flotilla of destroyers and even small cruisers that are nimble......and they weren't tied down with defending other fleet elements, this thing could have gone very differently.  I'm thinking any attacker is going to need to let loose packs of destroyers into the MTB ranges, maybe backed up with small cruisers that can dodge torpedoes, and chop up MTBs before letting the big boys in.  But as a general rule, if your Battle fleet is 100nm from the nearest shoreline, you're probably pretty safe.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 24, 2020, 06:06:24 PM
I guess on the other hand, it's also reinforcing the narrative that maybe attackers need to spend a bit of time sanitizing their target areas before bringing in the valuable fleet units and the vulnerable transports.

The European arrogance of "We can do this better than the Japanese because reasons." was a nice flavor addition I felt. The battle between Traditional and The New School has a new talking point, and by that I mean a lot of the Traditional thinkers that backed this will last about 5 seconds in their positions after the fighting is over.

Quote from: TacCovert4 on October 24, 2020, 06:09:45 PM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 24, 2020, 06:06:24 PM
I guess on the other hand, it's also reinforcing the narrative that maybe attackers need to spend a bit of time sanitizing their target areas before bringing in the valuable fleet units and the vulnerable transports.

As a general rule I agree.  Had my squadrons run up against a sizeable flotilla of destroyers and even small cruisers that are nimble......and they weren't tied down with defending other fleet elements, this thing could have gone very differently.  I'm thinking any attacker is going to need to let loose packs of destroyers into the MTB ranges, maybe backed up with small cruisers that can dodge torpedoes, and chop up MTBs before letting the big boys in.  But as a general rule, if your Battle fleet is 100nm from the nearest shoreline, you're probably pretty safe.

That's the Japanese plan for dealing with MTBs, hunt them down and eliminate them before sending in the big boys. Think allied hunter-killer groups during the Battle of the Atlantic.

That said, the 2nd Battle of Jeju showed that MTB strikes can be defeated, both Chinese MTB strikes where wiped out with limited damage done by the MTBs. It was the massive third destroyer strike, that crushed the screen first, that did the bulk of the damage.

Foxy is correct,
The last Cheju-Do battle, his layers of defenders eliminated the Chinese MTB force.
They were able to partially able to reposition to damage the Chinese coming from the opposite direction,
though I think there were a couple successful runs. 

That scattered the Japanese all over.

The final wave was from the open ocean, and late to arrive, but was destroyers (as MTBs couldn't make that) in front
of the Chinese fleet. The Japanese battlecruisers actually sunk a fair number of destroyers, and then took a fair amount of damage.

Foxy's tactics I adapted for the Roman commander, but the Romans lacked the resources to make them fully effective - they still got 30 vessels. Pretty darn good.

Hence my comment that another 10 E-Class probably would have changed that result, won the Romans that battle.


As for the Miracle weapon of the MTB,
Well Parthia currently has 256 of those, and 240 of the older torpedo boats they are replacing. We believe in them for close defense.
But we also don't intend on starting a war by sailing our invasion fleet within range of enemy MTBs and anchoring.

First get command of the seas, and Recon in force, then send in the slow transports that have to be protected.

However this wraps up, its probly done enough to make the mear thought of an amphibious landing after this conflict enough to throw the offending officer out of a planning meeting. At least for the Caicos, I ether take it "now" while I can attempt to block resupply or I imagine it sprouts forts like a bad breakout at which point why bother.

Quote from: snip on October 24, 2020, 11:22:07 PM
However this wraps up, its probly done enough to make the mear thought of an amphibious landing after this conflict enough to throw the offending officer out of a planning meeting. At least for the Caicos, I ether take it "now" while I can attempt to block resupply or I imagine it sprouts forts like a bad breakout at which point why bother.

Heh "Fort Acne" " Fort Pimple"  "Fort Blackhead"  "Fort Pustule"
'Bad news, you're being sent to Fort Pustule...."

Hey, at least this view saves me having to ever research any amphib tech, since I need to play some catchup on mines and night fighting :P

Okay, the tech rules for MTBs only specific cruise speeds.  What is their actual peak/attack speed?

I'm not entirely sure what Kirk's using, but I'd probably go with maximum cruise something between 10 and 25 percent.

I think Kirk mentioned 34kts at some point.

Just as an FYI for everyone else, we have concluded simmed thing for July and are starting August. There is one minor naval action, one near miss, and a raid that need to be posted. We'll try and have those narratives up Soon(tm), but the results are known if anyone needs them going into August.

Tac and I will try and get the Texas scrip caught up as we have time, if nessiary we are happy to provide a more condensed timeline.

I'm not too impatient these days.  Mainly contemplating recent combat events and trying to translate that into building strategy, and you guys fighting will give me more data to work with.

Some nasty one-sided affairs there.

Eh, both were really due to luck.

Bahamas was because there simply weren't any remaining escorts in the Roman Fleet after Grand Turk.  Since the hurricane (Cat 2 BTW, sunk one of Rome's DDs and caused some hairy moments for mine....from personal experience living in NC through over a dozen of the buggers that's about right) split their fleet up, the 1 remaining ship couldn't cover everything.  I had ordered an 'if practicable' attack.....and my cruisers (possibly the oldest cruisers in the whole theater) wisely decided that suiciding against a battleship to get the other half of the transports wasn't their bag baby.  The hurricane also meant that the transports couldn't just keep running, so the weather was my biggest asset for that raid.

Galveston Bay, that was me trying to be cute.  I knew that my mixed-capability mine warfare ships weren't really suited to offensive mine operations, but I was hoping that the Romans would have moved their local forces towards the Caicos.  I got unlucky with that, and with the fast response of the Roman cruisers.  If they had been a little slower off the mark, my cruisers would have been up to full steam and got away which were in their orders.  Learned a valuable lesson about the survivability of small protected cruisers, they have little use now except as commerce raiders, station ships, and the like.  In response, the only small protected cruisers that I will consider building will be that one class I put up as a possibility for 1915......as either an MTB-carrier or a fast minelayer, they're not suited even to backing up the fleet screen.  Also learned a valuable lesson about drives.  If they had been electric drive, they could have likely accelerated away, having to bring up steam to add power to direct drive is something that's just not viable and reduces roles of direct drive ships to ones that would mean they're likely going to be at or near a constant speed.  A lot easier to pour power on with turbo-electric.

The real funny thing about Galveston was that I forgot I gave the Aosta class minelaying capabilities. Way to go past me.

How much information is leaking out of the theater and into neutral intel/news?

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 01, 2020, 06:43:11 PM
How much information is leaking out of the theater and into neutral intel/news?

Considering the gist of what Kirk warned me about with the upcoming festivities.......I think wilno will be very aware of whatever happens in this battle.

That and if it's a positive result for the Sultanate in anything,  the Aztecs are going to push it to every outlet.  Because we want Roman's to know that they're paying this exorbitant price in money and blood for these islands......and maybe public pressure will stop the war.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 01, 2020, 06:43:11 PM
How much information is leaking out of the theater and into neutral intel/news?

I have started including Vilnus in the SigInt rolls, but they haven't picked up anything...useful.
Rome has been pretty disciplined on Radio traffic. Obviously Santiago and Havana broadcast fleet orders.
Theres has been alot of Aztec radio activity in the Caicos.

Vilnus native fisherman have seen Roman Warships to the North of Hispanolia, while Vilnus freighters have been stopped and asked for manifests. Once it's clear they are heading for Vilnus they are released. The Confederation of 5 Tribes is experiencing the same. The Maya don't talk to people, and the Norse are having internal political turmoil of some hush hush nature.

Currently I'm working on the Battle of Caicos island.  I've had to pause as I other things to do.
I *hope* to finish that on Tuesday, but it's large and may run to my next 'free' night of Thursday.
But it may proove decisive.

Rome is being quite tight-lipped about the goings on, it would be difficult to confirm details.

Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 01, 2020, 09:03:42 PM
Currently I'm working on the Battle of Caicos island.  I've had to pause as I other things to do.
I *hope* to finish that on Tuesday, but it's large and may run to my next 'free' night of Thursday.
But it may proove decisive.

I think the only way this is indecisive is if both battlefleets leave in the same state they came in. Somehow I doubt that is going to be the case.

Depending on the timing and provided it doesn't get sunk, my hospital/rescue/diplomatic ship should be helping out with the aftermath, and since its based out of Haiti should provided a pretty good third party perspective on the coming battle.

Alright, so I'm going to assume I know the generalities of the Aztec side of the story to date.

I'd like to RIP for Kirk.......

Having seen the initial 'mapping' he's done, I think we're going to have to donate to his scotch or bourbon fund after this battle.

Ya, there are pictures. Its impressive.

I look forward to the complete obliteration of your fleets.

I to look forward to what bits I have to pick up afterwards. It may not be much, but it could be enough.

Kirk is earning a serious end years present from us.

QuoteThe Caicos, Battle-Eve

"There's going to be a fight !!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK3JNlSA0z8

I thank you for the thought of Scotch. I believe I shall be imbibing of Lagavulin or Laphroaig shortly.

I *severely* underestimated the time requirement for this many ships...and ship types, with primary AND secondary batteries..
I am pretty much down to the capital ships slugging it out now. There are cruisers, but they are largely beat up.

Veracruz is stuck on course with her steering jammed from a long range 340mm shot from Invicta.
Saladin the Great is down to 14 knots, while her sister is down at the stern from one of two Torpedos that struck home.
The other one being an underwater tube fired by a Toucan which sunk an unaware Parisius.

Argonautia is struggling to stay afloat, having absorbed a dozen 280mm and 210mm rounds.
Imperito has survived 9 x 280mm, and 10x 210mm fairly well, but is down to 9knots and battling..lets call them leaks.
The Roman Triumphus has just pulled out of line with severe flooding forward, as 280/45 rounds are punching through the 300mm forward bulkheads.

There were 12 Aztec Cruisers and Capital ships, 18 destroyers, 5 MS, and 46 MTBs. 
There were 7 Roman Battleships, 1 AC, 16 cruisers, 30 destroyers.

The Destroyers and MTBs I can break into squadrons, everything else I make counters from 3x5 cards.
I really miss my old Star Fleet Battles, as that had LOTs of counters...

Apparently running a battle with ~ 55 counters is ...involved.
then measuring the range, the TH chance for different ships based on range, speed, fire control,
trying to determine the ROF for the guns that bear....
Reminds me of the Good Old Days of Star Fleet....I mean uh...

It got simpler once folks ran out of destroyers and MTBs.  Fewer cruisers afloat too.

Anyhow, I thought I'd wrap up by 1800 here, it's 1900....I'm taking a break :)

Figured I'd send poor Snip and Tac the battle so far, and go get a pizza.
Then I'll finish the thing tomorrow during football.

Kirk Out.

Nice, thanks, Kirk.

The effort that has gone into this fight is amassing and Im looking forward to the results.

I'm wondering I can have pizza delivered from here to Kirks castle...

Ahh, but I have Bernillos pizza just 5 minutes away. Consistantly excellent. Only place I know that gives them a run is Gold Rush in Sutter Creek, about..5hours away.

The battle reminds me of a Star Fleet Battles one I had with my friend Tom.  He had the Kzinti- a cat like race with heavy missle armanent, and I had his arch enemies, the Lyrans - another cat like race with heavy specialized missile defenses. But I had retrofitted my fleet with better long range fire, while he had improved his missles, launchers and the control links so he could have more. .

We each had about 30 ships, and he was synchronizing missile launches and missle pods so that a couple hundred missles would be heading my way at once. Basically overwhelm anything I could have. ... but I found a nifty new tactic of focusing my fleet fire on his leading frigates (short range fighters) and detonating them like giant bombs just as the missles were passing by...

Completely off topic, but it had lots and lots of counters, tracking damage to individual ships, timing of different things, etc.

I'm wondering how much will morale have an effect on the battle, especially on the Impetigo, whose crew already must be suffering from PTSD.

Quote from: Desertfox on November 08, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
I'm wondering how much will morale have an effect on the battle, especially on the Impetigo, whose crew already must be suffering from PTSD.

We don't see crews of warships suddenly mutinying in combat, so I don't view that as a morale thing.
As ships take damage, their speed/ secondary is supposed to attrit. I make kinda a mod call when the Captains feel they aren't up to continued action and need to pull out.
For example, Lauri #4 just took a 210mm critical causing severe flooding. that's 1500 damage on a 3800 damage ship...which already had 1500pts, then it took a 300pt 150mm crit.
Yes, she has 300lbs of damage remaining...no, she's not going to stay to fight.  With that level of damage, all but one gun is out of action and she's down to about 6knots and trying not to sink.
Before those hits she *was* the healthy one.

Morale in SK4 gets rolled for at over 65%-75% losses. I apply that to squadrons mostly.

So the 2 E Class that ran for it - that was morale.   The 8 MTBs of 46 that broke of the attack just shy of launch...that was rolled for.

The Roman cruisers that saw their lead ship blowup as they got way to close to dreadnaughts...that actually a mod call. They were at a very unhealthy tactical location, and so scattered, they are trying to reform and reengage...there's a couple Toucans, which are still firing at nearby targets but are mostly concerned with getting away while they still can move...and for some reason both they and the Aztecs can't seem to hit each other.  Everyone is ignoring the dead in the water Tenochitalan which has stopped sinking, probably has a couple guns, but is out of action.

So normally, I just feed the results back to Snip and Tac, and let them decide what gets 'public'.  This way they can also interpret any 'lessons' they feel like.  In this case I've taken some photos.

To share with the group, this is the Battle, just after the Roman fleet Admiral gave the order to split by alternate divisions.

If you zoom in, the counters have little labels so I know which is which. They are not to scale.

The leading roman ships are L1 -L4, the Lauri class, who had been locked on course so they could engage the MTBs coming from the NW....and which are now off the board.
This has meant as they got closer to the Aztec Line, which was intent on 'Crossing the T', they have collected progressively more attention and are now...pretty much out of action.

I have one of the pages I track hits on, - in this case 'P' for Parisius.  All the little numbers are different shell hits - mainly by little 7cm and 10cm rounds..lots of little hits.

I have a 3x5 card with a very crud top and side view of a 'Saladin the Great' class battleship, giving armor by location, gun positions and types, tonnage, damage absorp, TDS details, speed, fuel type on side.  You can see from the line between upper and main belts, that there's an armor deck. For protective, I put it under the main belt.  On the left I have the belt heights to help determine what is getting hit.   

   Deck and Belt hits get an additional roll for location, so I compare penetration against the appropriate category. I halve damage from superstructure hits as nothing vital and no floatation should be there. Deck crits I do check if shell splinters can penetrate, as that was the main threat in this time. 

   I made a chart of Penetrations for the Roman and Aztec guns, much like I have for my Parthian guns. I compare that to the armor at the location. If there's a decent angle I may add more to the armor value.

I have a corner of the To Hit sheet with adjustments for all sorts of things,
I have a piece of a note page where I track the TH by ships.  I update that as ranges/aspects change.

There's a number of things I can do in future downtime to make this easier to do - premade sheets and things.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7YBYvYNH/DSC-0012.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HVyCXmKR)

Fantastic and exciting job !!!
I will read the final report with great interest.
:)

Quote from: Desertfox on November 08, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
I'm wondering how much will morale have an effect on the battle, especially on the Impetigo, whose crew already must be suffering from PTSD.

Another note on Morale :

I do not view it as my place to dictate how fanatic the crews are.
For example, the historical Japanese demonstrated a tremendous willingness to fight to the bitter end.
Who am I to say if our mythical nations have, or do not have, that 'fighting spirit'.

So, while players seem to regard high casualties as acceptable, and older units in particular as expendable,
...which should *really* drive morale of those crews down
...that is not my call, so I just go with SK4's high default levels, and eyeball when individual ships are basically out of action.

So, Tac's goals were to fight to the bitter end.
Most of his ships did that. Some were able to get away, but when the last two battle wagons struck, the 3 other ships, which all had engine damage, could not get away.

I list the ships in rank of 'Tons Normal' and tried to count from my damage sheets which of the shells must have been main battery vs. intermediate vs. secondaries.

	Battle of Caicos Survivors
								Hits
	Ship name	Type	Tons, Normal	Floatation	Damage	%	Main	Intermediate	Secondary
	ROMAN
	Invicta 1	BB	22962	37130	10700	29%	7	12	16
	Invicta 2	BB	22962	37130	600	2%	1
	Trajen VIII 1	BB	17429	30000	600	2%	1
	Trajen VIII 2	BB	17429	30000		0%
	Argonautica	AC	16834	15881	11700	74%	4	10
	Triumphus 1	BB	16173	24000	19050	79%	12	7	3
	Triumphus 2	BB	16173	24000	7850	33%	7	4	2
	Imperito 1	BB	16042	25000	16250	65%	11	16	4
	Divodurum 2	PC	5847	2400	720	30%			11
	Parisius 4	PC	5620	4160	766	18%			4
	Aosta 1	PC	4012	1970	600	30%			2
	Arquese 1	PC	3319	3099	831	27%		2	4
	Arquese 2	PC	3319	3099	1238	40%		2	1
	Arquese 3	PC	3319	3099	1816	59%		2	3
	E class 10	DD	848	158	48	30%			1
	E class 9	DD	848	158	96	61%			2
	AZTEC
Surrendered	Veracruz 1	Az BB	15886	24700	20325	82%	7	3	9
Surrendered	Saladin the Great 1	Az BB	12340	13669	11570	85%	3	5	5
Surrendered	Tenochitlan 1	Az AC	9843	9000	4090	45%		8	10
Surrendered	Toucan 2	Az PC	4438	4477	1440	32%			9
Surrendered	Toucan 4	Az PC	4438	4477	2760	62%		1	9
	Escaped :
	8x MTB
	5x MS
	Auxilary freighters

If Im understanding this right, I have 12 destroyers left in theater and 32 left overall out of 80 total I started the war with. Thats a 60% casualty rate of my total DD force, 80% for in-theater assets. Ouch.

Quote from: snip on November 08, 2020, 11:32:53 PM
If Im understanding this right, I have 12 destroyers left in theater and 32 left overall out of 80 total I started the war with. Thats a 60% casualty rate of my total DD force, 80% for in-theater assets. Ouch.

You sent 10 G, 10 F, and 10 E with the Task Force.

You have 2 damaged E types left.... oh darn I forgot to fill out the damage for those.  Both took 7cm hits.
So 48 dam on one, and 96 damage on the other.

You also lost 10 destroyers at the Battle of Grand Turk.

..that's 38 lost DDs,   80-38 = 42.

Am I missing 10 more lost?  ...I mean, it can be arranged.

I'd kinda lost track in the narrative where ten of the D-class ended up (I know the other ten are safely back in Texas). Since some of the other ships they were working with ended up here, I though they had too. Oops

Snip, Tac, what were the original OOBs? This looks absolutely nasty.

I assume any capital ship with over 50% dmg is basically a write-off at this point.

I believe over 300 torpedo boats of all kinds have been sunk to date.

I think thats best provided by Kirk, as I know I had some split forces doing some different things that came together in other ways to make up the force I sent in.

So Aztecs have lost their battle fleet, and the Romans' protected cruiser/destroyer force has been pretty trashed as well.  Ouch.

Basically, Aztec holed up in Caicos Bay, 40nm E-W wide and 22 nm N-S deep. 
Islands form a 'C' facing south, with islands off the tips of the C.
There are side channels between them and the main islands,
which the Romans had reason to believe were mined.

There is  ~5-10m deep water over sand bar across of the mouth of the C,
but there seemed to be a ~10nm area where Google earth showed a 100m+ deep channel.
With "current" technology, that is not mineable, but the Romans would not have maps of just how deep or wide.
They scouted and verified.

Then they stuck their fleet into the bay, following destroyers equipped with light paravanes 'just in case'.
The Aztecs spent most of their time cruising broadside to the entrance trying to butcher what poked it's nose it.

Worked pretty well considering the disparity of the fleets.

Exact details are up to the players.

I will have to check my notes at home to verify,
But per my recollection
Roman
1x BB Imperito
2x BB Triumphus
2x DN Invicta
2x DN Trajen VIII
1x AC Argonautica
4x PC Parisius
4x PC Arquese
4x PC Lauri
2x PC Divodurum
2x PC Aosta
10x Gclass DD
10x Fclass DD
10x E Class DD

It should be noted that many of the Roman vessels were larger class by class than the Aztec
Aztec
2 x Veracruz DN
4x Saladin the Great BB
2x Tenochtitlan AC
4 x Toucan PC
2 x Scout PC
8 x DD-1
10 x DD Scimitar
46 x MTB-A
5 x MS

By my count, that is:
1 Dreadnought
4 Pre-Dreads
1 Armored Cruiser
16 Protected Cruisers
56 Destroyers
61 MTBs

At the bottom of Caicos Bay...

Quote from: Desertfox on November 09, 2020, 11:08:29 AM
By my count, that is:
1 Dreadnought
4 Pre-Dreads
1 Armored Cruiser
16 Protected Cruisers
56 Destroyers
61 MTBs

At the bottom of Caicos Bay...

Ironbottom sound indeed

Wonder how many men between those ships, is it spreadsheet time? Its spreadsheet time.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 09, 2020, 05:27:47 AM
So Aztecs have lost their battle fleet, and the Romans' protected cruiser/destroyer force has been pretty trashed as well.  Ouch.

The Wilno just became the most powerful navy around that part of the world without lifting a finger.  :P

Quote from: snip on November 09, 2020, 11:21:38 AM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 09, 2020, 05:27:47 AM
So Aztecs have lost their battle fleet, and the Romans' protected cruiser/destroyer force has been pretty trashed as well.  Ouch.

The Wilno just became the most powerful navy around that part of the world without lifting a finger.  :P

Have I mentioned my fine selection of vintage pre-dreadnoughts and protected cruisers for disposal?

Weather should be good and the islands were close by, so should be fair amount of survivors. My hospital/rescue ship could be there in about 12 hours.

I'm just upset all the Saladins are lost. I was hoping to pick one up as an "Army" ship. Rocky, let me know when you start getting rid of the Nieposkromiony Class, I'll have to pick one of those up instead.

So doing some math with the Springsharp Low-High spread of crewmen, I have possible casualty figures. Remember casualties does not mean deaths, tho I presume a fair chunk of these are. I assumed that any ship that was sunk had all crew as casualties (this is probly more true of the light ships than larger ones) and I looked at the survivors based on average damage for the class (I can break this down by unit but effort) for any ships left afloat (assumption being the crew is attrited roughly at the level of the ship). That said...

The Battle of Caicos had somewhere between 15,193 and 19,698 casualties between both sides. The Imperial Roman Navy suffered between 8,218 and 10,716 casualties and the Royal Aztec Navy suffered between 6,975 and 8,981 casualties.

Quote from: Desertfox on November 09, 2020, 11:54:56 AM
I'm just upset all the Saladins are lost. I was hoping to pick one up as an "Army" ship.

I mean, there is still one around. Gently loved condition, no lowballs. Seller knows what he has.

Ouch.

Quote from: Desertfox on November 09, 2020, 11:54:56 AM
Weather should be good and the islands were close by, so should be fair amount of survivors. My hospital/rescue ship could be there in about 12 hours.

I'm just upset all the Saladins are lost. I was hoping to pick one up as an "Army" ship. Rocky, let me know when you start getting rid of the Nieposkromiony Class, I'll have to pick one of those up instead.

We're probably two to three sim-years from that point, I'd reckon.

Looking at Tsushima, I would expect 30-40% of those casualties would be deaths, depending on how the ships sank, did any suffer rapid unscheduled disassembly?

The Key is..this is the discussion thread.
What is publically available is from the story threads.

Quote from: Desertfox on November 09, 2020, 11:08:29 AM
By my count, that is:
1 Dreadnought
4 Pre-Dreads
1 Armored Cruiser
16 Protected Cruisers
56 Destroyers
61 MTBs

At the bottom of Caicos Bay...

So the islands are the 'Turks and Caicos'

The first battle was off the island of Grand Turk, about 30nm West.
This is the bay of Caicos Cay :)
But yes, it's been a pricey little war so far.

A number of the ships went down fairly slowly. For example the Tenochitalin 1- it was an immobile burning wreck, but it didn't plunge right to the bottom.  I think 3 cruiser magazine explosions. The MTBs didn't do well absorbing 140mm shells though.

It will be up to the players what they radio others and if the Aztec ask for the Hospital ship.
Then it has to get up to steam, make the run, and then the Romans have to allow the Japanese a first
hand look at the damage they've taken - which might not fit with their desired P.R. stance.

It would be pretty bad PR for them to block neutral ships from rescuing sailors.

Quote from: Desertfox on November 09, 2020, 12:31:39 PM
It would be pretty bad PR for them to block neutral ships from rescuing sailors.

That is up to the Romans (and Aztecs)

This is the discussion thread.
Information here is not grounds for action by any participant.

Story threads are where actionable items occur.

Since the Romans took out the radio station at the harbor several days prior, and all Aztec ships have fled or surrendered.
The Aztecs will have coded information prior to surrendering.
there's not alot of ways for information to get out other than official channels.

Some of the frieghters/tankers that ran for it will get to Martinique in a week- unless the  Romans chase, but I would bet they maintain radio silence.

Even if the knowledge was available, you would need to know where, and that there was a south channel to get through the minefields.
It's ~500nm away from the nearest Vilnus port, so more than 12 hours. Quite alot could happen long before you would get there, even if you started getting up steam immediately.

...and now the Aztecs have made that information available :)
...like magic, isn't it :)

Quote from: snip on November 09, 2020, 11:21:38 AM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 09, 2020, 05:27:47 AM
So Aztecs have lost their battle fleet, and the Romans' protected cruiser/destroyer force has been pretty trashed as well.  Ouch.

The Wilno just became the most powerful navy around that part of the world without lifting a finger.  :P

It's spelled M a y a n  ...

Did the Aztec ever make peace with the Maya after making an unprovoked attack on the Maya?
.... good thing NPCs are still pretty passive and undefined :)

Is there an outline of the Mayan OOB somewhere?  It'd be a useful thing for me to look at.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 09, 2020, 08:10:01 PM
Is there an outline of the Mayan OOB somewhere?  It'd be a useful thing for me to look at.

Snip's concept, which I'm trying respect,
calls for the NPC to be in Tiers with a defined strength relative to players,
but without specific details.

That way they do not need to be constantly updated, turns made for them, etc.

What I have long wanted to augment that with is by adding the Classes of NPC ships,
just not specifying how MANY in those classes.
That would at least give a concept of what type of force is out there.

The Mayans are a destroyer / cruiser force - probably nothing larger than an armored cruiser,
They have less tonnage than the Aztec, but more than a breadbox.

If the Aztecs had another batch of MTBs to throw at the Romans, they might do some serious harm.  But is there another batch?

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 10, 2020, 07:34:41 PM
If the Aztecs had another batch of MTBs to throw at the Romans, they might do some serious harm.  But is there another batch?

For the right price, I'm sure another batch could be procured somewhere...

This specific post is for the pictures from the Battle of the Caicos
The pictures will eventually be deleted and this post removed - the rest of the thread will be left.

Picture 1. 
The Aztec forces deep in the bay were deliberately split, but due to pickets had plenty of time to consolidate. I ran several turns of Aztec-Only movement to account for that, the Romans being frozen in place.   So...the Roman column should actually be off to the left at this point, where it's pictured is where it 'unfroze'.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyLJb9r8/BoC1.gif) (https://postimg.cc/hzkSyfgm)

Picture 2.
The Roman destroyers have cleared the channel and are trying to bring their broadsides into action. With the Aztec Destroyers to the East and heading West, and the Aztec Fleet to the North and West and heading East, they decided to turn away from the Aztec Destroyers and head NW.  This wound up exposing their broadside to the Aztec fleet, boosting it's To Hit by 15%...They did not survive to launch distance.

(https://i.postimg.cc/N06yCYXk/BoC2.gif) (https://postimg.cc/94fFz6JD)

Picture 3
The Roman destroyers have been eliminated, but the leading Roman cruisers are making best speed, hoping to get ahead of the Aztec battleline. By this stage they have finished off the remaining Aztec DDs, and are exchanging fire with the Aztec PCs. The two counters out of line I think were Tenochitlan 1, which was pounded by Argonautica, and a Saladin that had a long range hit slow it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8PYrjZDM/Exiting3.gif) (https://postimg.cc/ppDdSYmL)

Picture 4
The Roman cruisers determined they were taking a heavy pounding from the Aztec secondaries, and so launched at 5-6000m, further than desirable. They hoped to disrupt the Aztec line, and maybe score some hits. AThe Aztecs had to veer away, disrupting their MTB plans, and once the torpedoes were passed turned back onto their course. At this time they fired some underwater torpedoes at the Roman Cruisers, and a Toucan blew up a Parisius. The MTBs and DDs wound up facing close range broadsides from 20x 10cm, as well as long range 14cm fire. The original plan disrupted and under fire,  MTBs then went into the attack.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbmX4mGX/Roman-Torpedoes4.gif) (https://postimg.cc/2qj3hb88)

Picture 5
Once the Aztec MTBs had been smashed, the Romans desperately needed to break formation and clear broadsides, as the Aztec line was hammering one battleship at a time and rapidly rendering them unservicable. The fastest way was to deploy to alternating sides of the route by squadron. So some squadrons went port, some starboard.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TwvVhCVC/5-Romans-Alternate.gif) (https://postimg.cc/CZJBQC6q)

Battle of Caicos Bay,
a summary

Strategically, the two sides had differing goals.
The Romans sought to identify the Aztec forces and lure them out to fight a battle on the open ocean.
The scouting and tip and run raids achieved the first part, but not the second.

The Aztecs wanted to force the Romans to come to them at a place of their choosing. The calm,mine guarded and  MTB-friendly Caicos bay, that place.  The geography of the islands also made this an excellent area from which to counterstrike any serious attempt at an amphibious landing.

The Romans in contrast had determined to eliminate the Aztec fleet, even if it meant a high cost. This meant that when their efforts to draw out the Aztecs failed, they went for the direct attack.

The Aztecs knew Caicos had four channels in, of which 3 were usable by the Roman fleet. Two were known to be shallow, the last too deep to mine, but that information not generally available.

The Aztec posted destroyer and MTB groups as pickets, expendable if needed. The bulk of their battleline was in two squadrons.  These could respond to Romans at the East or West entrances, or collapse on the Southern.  The Destroyer force was consolidated in the South.  This allowed them to react flexibly and ensured they could engage the Roman force before they cleared a channel. This also prevented  their fleet from being overwhelmed by a Roman nighttime strike, or if the Roman fleet struck in the dark. If caught at disadvantage, they could disperse or have one part fight a delaying action. If, as expected, he pickets worked, then the fleet could consolidate at whichever bay entrance the Romans were approaching.

The Aztec hoped to be able to get their fleet into position to 'cross the T' of the Roman fleet moving through a channel, and bludgeon it.  As the Romans would be limited in manuever room, that could allow the Aztecs to close to where their lighter shells could penetrate the Roman battleship armor. Their MTBs would shadow the battleline, and would engage in the  midst of the battle, emerging from behind the Aztec fleet at hopefully a moderate range.

The mines were an important part of Aztec strategy, as their potential effect was devastating, and so the Romans had to take precaution for the worse case.  That worse case was that the Southern Channel was shallower in areas and would allow moored mines. This meant using their expendable Destroyers with paravanes to lead and sweep the channel.  If there were mines, they would be found long before an expensive and critical vessel was suddenly lost.

The battle developed much as the Aztecs hoped.
Their pickets spotted the Romans, giving the fleet time to get underway.  The widely scattered MTBs had furthest to go, while the Battleline was in two primary squadrons. The fleet consolidated and moved towards the Southern Entrance.  The MTB & Destroyer force mustered behind them and then trailed, gaining.

The Aztecs approached the channel's western edge, and then about 7-8000m from the exit, the line turned in sequence and steamed across the exit.  This ensured that vessels near the exit of the channel would be in good fire control range.  The Destroyers had come from the East and crossed at ~5000m range.

The Romans had a line of paravane- equipped destroyers, with cruisers behind.  This was to both sweep mines, and kill the expected MTB charge. This lead formation also meant the Roman fleet had to cluster in column.

Behind was the AC and a destroyer squadron, with the idea of having some speed and power. The gap between the two ensured that should the lead ships run into mines, the AC and following capital ships could disengage.   The battleline followed, flanked by cruisers to ward off MTBs/ DDs, and with the old but heavily armored battleships in front.

The Aztec battleline steaming East, and their destroyer force steaming West worked mostly as intended. Timewise, if the battleline had reached the sequential turn point about 10 minutes earlier it would have been nice.  As it was, the combined fire tore holes in the Roman destroyer line, and meant the 20 destroyers were eliminated shortly after clearing the channel. This is a decided win.

The Win could have been much better if the Aztec vessels had heavier QF weapons.  The 7cm is simply too light, and even the 10 and 10.5cm just lack the punch to ensure the Romans 1000tonners would be seriously damaged with only 1 hit. The need to land several hits to stop them was very evident in comparison to the G class's 14cm's ability to clobber the 750t destroyers with a single hit. Adjusting aim by spotting both requires a minimum ROF...and means substantially higher is wasted as you  shoot before you get correction information. This meant the slower 14cm was not at a disadvantage at the longer ranges, and this part of the battle was short enough the loaders would not wear down yet. Plus frankly in a battle this side, accurate tracking such things would fall by the wayside. The downfall of the Roman design was the single gun forward was a real limitation on firepower.  The smaller, less well armed Aztec Destroyers managed an equal fight as a result.

As the last of the destroyers exited the channel, the Romans had a choice of charging straight at the Aztec line, turning starboard – into the Aztec Destroyers, or turning Port, opening the broadside guns...they turned Port.   That also exposed their broadside to the Aztecs. Bow on is +0 to hit, Broadside is +15, that was decisive as the Aztec line rapidly shredded the last G class Destroyers.

Once the Roman Destroyers were out of the way, the Roman cruiser line behind came into action. Honestly, they probably could have fired before that, but I was thinking they were masked by the Destroyers downrange when there likely would have been clear windows for at least some. The Roman Cruisers were larger, better armored and better armed than the Aztec DDs or Toucans. The 14cm advantage really helped.and they battered the Aztec Toucans and Tenochitilans – backed by Argonautica. They were taking a diagonal out of the channel, veering east.  This part goes to the Romans...

..until the Aztec battleline started taking the Romans under fire  with their secondaries. The Aztec 15cm started doing a lot of damage.

Due to the gap in the Roman formations – meant to provide cushions against misfortune- the Argonautica was the heaviest unit in range for a while, then the Imperito joined in, and finally – due to the 14km FC, the rear was in range. Again, due to only 1 turret bearing forward, most could not score hits.  At the same time, the Aztecs could not penetrate the armor at these ranges, but the Romans, when they landed a lucky hit like Invicta vs. Veracruze, could. The combination of light belt armor and light armament hindered the Veracruz design, as it meant they were vulnerable before they could do criticals. This was made worse by the use of an Armored deck, which is at the top of the belt, and not turtle back. While there are benefits to armor decks vs. protective decks, thats mainly higher flotation, which does not help when your belt is full of holes.

At this point, the Aztec line had almost completely reached and made the turn, and so was broadside to the Roman Column.  At this point the East end of the Aztec line was closing the channel and the line was completely across, while the MTBs were just behind.  The 20 lead Roman DDS were sunk, as were the Aztec DDs. Near the tip of the Aztec line the Roman Cruisers were trying to cut it off, or torpedo it, and were taking heavy losses.  Over to the west, near the turn point, the 3rd squadron- the E type, was trying to get to torpedo position, which put it approaching the Aztec turn point.

This is when the Roman Cruiser line launched torpedoes.  The Aztec goal of crossing the T meant the faster Roman cruisers moved ahead of them, but as the range came down, they were getting sunk by the Aztec 15cm. The Romans chose to disrupt the Aztec fleet, and buy time to get away from the Secondaries, so they launched at ~5000m.  There was a 1.5% chance to hit. The Diceroller came up with a 2, I rolled again to see if it was 1.5 or 2.5 , and got 1.5.  A 25mm bulkhead at 2m in is pretty minimal, and would be enough on a 16" and maybe 18", but not 21" torpedo. However the critical was "excessive flooding", which the compartmentalization of a TDS helps prevent so the critical was discounted.

To avoid those 30 torpedoes, the Aztec turned away.  This was a very critical aspect.
The MTBs were next up to turn , and were going to go on the unengaged side of the battleline. They have Ad hoc leaders with radios, but no radios themselves. Suddenly, all the ships in the battleline turn towards the unengaged side (away from the torpedoes) placing cruisers and battleships exactly where the MTBs were going to go.  At the same time, the 3rd Roman DD squadron, the E's, are heading west while the Azecs were heading East, so they steam into the path of the MTBs, and bring the radio leader destroyers underfire. Last but not least, long range pot shots by the Dividorums, back with the Roman batltleships, land and mangle the leading Scimitar.   With their planned steaming route blocked by their own fleet, no information as to why, with Roman destroyers suddenly taking them under close fire – which means running would get them shot up – and with their leading destroyers suddenly blowing up under long range fire, the Destroyer leaders and MTBS had to make a sudden choice.  Can't turn, stay and absorb fire, run and absorb fire, or attack .   Given their training and 'make em bleed' orders, they attacked.

The Roman Battleline at this point had merged into a line-ahead column on the western side of the Swept channel, then angled across the swept channel, aiming for the Eastern Corner.  This meant some of them could fire broadsides at the rear of the Aztec Battleline. This also meant the fleet was broadside to the MTB charge. I worked out their closing speed and range, and figured the Roman TH at each turn mark. Then used the diceroller to roll the broadsides. The Romans actually rolled somewhat Poorly, but they had so many cannons to bear.

The MTBs had the beneficial effect of locking the Romans in formation and course. The Aztec line was able to batter them. As the range got really short the Aztecs were getting penetrations, but were rolling badly for criticals. They really should have sunk Argonautica, Imperito, and Triumphus, I think the Romans got "lucky", as it is the ships were wrecked.   Both sides had problems with line -ahead formations in that as ships lost speed, they had to pull out of line. At that point the ship behind either had to pass behind them – blocking it's own shots – or in front of them, blocking the shots. As an aside, I long ago planned to write about how the Parthians practice maneuvers in Oblique order, which was meant to show off professionalism and skill....but actually would have helped both sides in this battle, as in oblique order, a ship can loose speed/course, and the next vessel – off the port or starboard quarter- would just slide past without issue, while since the line slants away, there would be more opportunity to shoot around.

After the MTB strike, the Romans split by squadron left/ right as that seemed the quickest way to open broadsides. At that point, the bigger, better armed, better armored ships were able to persevere.

The Aztec plan MOSTLY worked. They were severely overmatched and they were able to force the Romans to fight at a disadvantage at ranges the Aztecs could hurt them. Had the sequence of events seen the MTBs behind the line as planned, then that threat would have constrained the Romans longer, and the mass torpedo launch probably would have sunk the damaged (and thus slow) targets, while the Electric-drive modern Roman ships would have shown off their extra maneuverability and torpedo resistance. At which point the Romans would still win, but with more losses, and the modern ships would be more clearly superior. It would have been a nice teachable moment if it worked as I guess it would.

End result – the Aztecs definitely succeeded in exacting a high price. The 7cm gun is obsolete, the 10cm needs numbers to be useful. The 14cm is perhaps overlarge but effective. When you have fewer guns firing, you rely a bit more on luck for criticals, but you really need to penetrate the belt to do that. All of these combat was so short ranged that the 'deck hits' bounced off....or in a couple cases the shells were large enough that the 1/6th diameter > deck thickness, allowing splinters to penetrate the deck.

I think a light force emerging from behind the battleline could be useful either to disrupt, or sink damaged vessels which are limited in speed/secondary already.

So in summary, pre-dreads are still quite dangerous at short ranges, protected cruisers have no place in set piece battles, armored cruisers can stand and fight, destroyers need numbers to be effective, and I somehow lucked out on the most appropriate destroyer weapon in the 5"/45.

Quote from: Desertfox on November 13, 2020, 04:43:37 PM
So in summary, pre-dreads are still quite dangerous at short ranges, protected cruisers have no place in set piece battles, armored cruisers can stand and fight, destroyers need numbers to be effective, and I somehow lucked out on the most appropriate destroyer weapon in the 5"/45.

Predreads with firecontrol, yes.
The /35 or /40 calibers have MV issues, but the boost from 1910 AP shells helps.

Protected cruisers did ok actually, they just can't take volleys of 140/150mm rounds at point blank range.  At the longer ranges the Toucan's 105mm just didn't cut it.

Armored cruisers held up well, pretty much rejecting QF weapons- so a fair number of crits were avoided.
The Argonautica was also one of the larger vessels, and the Aztec 280mm rounds penetrated, but didn't crit - a 1/3 chance.

The 5" gun actually WAS a poor choice- slower firing and not needed vs. 250 and 500t DDs.   
NOW the 5" is about right.    Now that they are up at 1000 and 1500 ton DDs, they are much harder to sink, and 70-75mm will rely on the right hit.

If you think of the criticism of British secondaries, this makes sense.

Another factor is the shell splash range. It's hard to hit a destroyer at 10km, but even harder if you can't see the shell splashes because they are small.
Back in Feb I added the CM of the weapon = KM it can be be ranged by splashes at.
I know it was a limitation, and that destroyers could not effectively engage at ~15-16km.

QuoteThe 5" gun actually WAS a poor choice- slower firing and not needed vs. 250 and 500t DDs.   
NOW the 5" is about right.    Now that they are up at 1000 and 1500 ton DDs, they are much harder to sink, and 70-75mm will rely on the right hit.

That reminds me, I do have a question about the first battle. At Jeju my (75mm) DDs went up against Chinese DDs (90mm) and had a bad time, while at the first battle the Aztec DDs (70mm) went up against Roman ones armed with 100mm and won that round. What made the difference in the two battles? I'm curious since Jeju is what lead to switching wholesale to 5" for the DDs.

I'd wager part of the issue that the E-class suffered was weather related. They are almost-sub level seaboats and had that fight in the outer edge of a tropical storm.

Actually a bit hard to remember at this remove.

There are a couple of factors.
The first is that the Chinese were running around with then up to date Fire Control, which helped.  They were able to start hitting you consistently long before you could hit them. 
Your Umikaze Destroyers had no fire control. Heck looking now, they still don't. 

In the Jeju battles, I was just using the SK4 chart, so if you had FC and were within it's Tech window (10km for 1908) to range with , it was +3 To Hit. If you did not, it was -12 To Hit - thats a 15 point swing.

Which means that at 8000m against a small fast target, your To Hits were likely in the single digits or possibly negative. By that late in the war I was giving at least a 1% chance to hit, and I think 2% up to twice your FC range, just to give you more of a chance. But since the pre-FC range "long range" was 3km, twice was merely 6km. 1908 FC is 10km.
The Chinese though would be in the low to mid teens. A 3% for you could be an 18% for them.

Please note: for the Caicos, and likely onward, I'm giving +1% for every 1000m under your max FC range. This seems to work well, though my original idea was 2%.

The second is that shell damage is a combination of a multiple of your shell weight and any crits you do. A 75mm shell is about 6kg. a 90mm shell is about 10kg.  The Chinese shells were starting at 167% more damage. Their damage was then multiplied off that higher number. 

I don't recall which Parthian-clones DDs you were facing.  The Chinese wound up with Parthian-Clones because they had the range to reach the Phillipines/Indonesia.
Three classes  the Atlatl, Parthian Bow and Pirate have 4x90mm with 2 guns forward...but I think it was the older "Spear" class.
The "Spear class" are weird ships. 500tons, 1904, 93% coalfired...and have casements.   The Parthians (me) like casements...though I could have the same effect with waist guns like your Umikazes have. The "Spear" have forward superstructure casements. They aren't much use in heavy seas, but those battles were in light seastates so they were usable. 

So they had comparable forward firepower to your DDs, hit a  higher % and did more damage when they hit.

Edit : I should also note that everytime you have a penetrating hit there is a 65% chance of a critical to some target location. This can be additional structural damage, engine damage, steering damage, extra guns knocked out, magazine fires, or the oddly high number of searchlights and radio rooms that get hit.   
So the fact they were hitting MORE also led to more crits....oh and being hit gave a ship a -8 TH the next round.

Quote from: snip on November 13, 2020, 05:36:44 PM
I'd wager part of the issue that the E-class suffered was weather related. They are almost-sub level seaboats and had that fight in the outer edge of a tropical storm.

While I was watching Seastate, the water was smooth enough for MTBs, which meant your unseaworthy E class could be there.

The bigger problem is you had far to small a fleet for the job.
So the 10 Eclass were scattered.  Two were assigned counterbattery on the beach, lobbing HE at muzzle flashes. Mainly deterrence. 2 were pickets North and South of the island.
Which led to 3 DDs being defeated 'in detail'.  You lost a couple to the Scout Cruisers on pretty lucky hits, and then were just outgunned.

After the battle :
Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.64
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

came into play.
Granted, the slower that vessel goes, the better the seakeeping, so it's a fuzzy number, but you get a warning like that and it's a problem.
I'm going to view their seawortheness about the same as an MTB. They need to be in seastate 4 or less to avoid penalties, and stay out of anything resembling a storm.

Another aspect is that in your quest for speed, you build delicate short range destroyers. 750t, built 1908, Speed 31.28, Survivability:  158 lbs....
Compare that to the 2/3rds size Scimitar class :    Survivability :  141 lbs
While the slower, but same size/era 4x90mm  Parthian 'Parthian Bow' class  750t, built 1908, speed 28.0knts  20% more range, Survivability::  287 lbs - nearly twice the E on the same tonnage and nearly the same guns.

So

So as I understand it, it was more a factor of the Roman destroyers under-performing compared to the Chinese destroyers, due to a combination of fragility and tactics (defeat in detail)? In other words, the lessons learned from Jeju where the correct ones, while Caicos was more an anomaly?

Ya, I think Grand Turk is more anomaly, the fault of Roman tactics. The only thing you can take from Caicos is dont put destroyers under heavy secondary fire, it just wont end well.

Curious to see if the Aztecs continue to try and bleed the Romans with what remains of their navy or if this battle effectively ends things.

The main question is actualy "Cui Bono"

Diminished Aztec and Roman navies.... Who can reap the fruit of that branch?

Well the war has taken both navies out as players in the Pacific. But that doesn't help Japan much either way.

Quote from: Desertfox on November 15, 2020, 02:05:16 AM
So as I understand it, it was more a factor of the Roman destroyers under-performing compared to the Chinese destroyers, due to a combination of fragility and tactics (defeat in detail)? In other words, the lessons learned from Jeju where the correct ones, while Caicos was more an anomaly?

Different 'lessons'  appear to different evaluators.

You absolutely need to fit Destroyers with Fire Control.
The British modified their fire control setup so they could fit a limited version in their Destroyers, fairly early on.

Caicos is a poor example in several ways, but 12 smaller DDs took on 20 larger ones, and claimed 1:1.
As destroyer size/survivability increases, it becomes hard to get enough 70/75mm hits to destroy one, so you are relying on criticals.

With Destroyers, they are small, stuffed with machinery and guns and unarmored,
shell splinters have potential for criticals regardless of where they hit.
Which could be extra structural damage, or removing a searchlight...
But with a 70/75mm you are expecting to land 4-6 shots to disable/sink.

Shells around 100mm are still effective, but it takes several shots. 2-4 depending on size.
This will get worse as destroyers get more robust.

The Romans found their 14cm very effective against smaller and older Destroyers.
It will be less so against newer, modern destroyers.

I've highlighted the great differences in floatation by design.
This really effects how many shells they can take, but has the downside
that a random Crit can do them in, and damage degrades performance.

Turning broadside with a destroyer looks to be a bad choice.
Bow on, or Angled, makes a substantial difference in how many times you get hit.
The 1 bow gun arrangements had difficulty making hits until they turned broadside.
Also, the single gun forward was a distinct limitation, as it gave barely enough shots to range on, reduced the chance to hit.
Over time, that 39kg weight would start limiting ROF without a hoist, but they got shot up.

To get full 'credit' for your 'to hit', you kinda need a ROF about 10+ in any direction.

It should be noted that the way the "To Hit" works, is you bundle shots in clusters of 10.
Less than that, you get proportionally lower "To hit", Higher than that, you get a roll per cluster.
Which means a single 14cm forward is not going to get the full benefit of the "To Hit" value.

while a 24 ROF translates to 3 rolls, the 3rd at a ~40% of whatever your raw "To Hit" is.
There's even a small chance at 2 or 3 hits instead of 1.


PS :..anyone hostile to Parthia please build  Destroyers with  12:1 LB, very short range, high speed, poor seakeeping, and a 1x180mm gun mounted aft

Quote from: maddox on November 15, 2020, 01:22:58 PM
The main question is actualy "Cui Bono"

Diminished Aztec and Roman navies.... Who can reap the fruit of that branch?

Sadly, I've been running around enough I'm not sure which Navies are strongest.
Wilno seems to come out best, as neither can really challenge her in the Caribbean anymore, and that's central to her colonies.

The Maya and Norse also benefit, but without players can not take advantage.
Five tribes comes out worse as potential allies on the other side of Wilno are diminished. However, relations on that border are fine, so that's not a big deal.

Parthia's interest in that area is limited to some strategic points. Due to the Treaty of Malta, she has to consider Rome more of Neutral or even a Byzantine ally, than as a potential Parthian Ally.

The Union has been trying to ensure that the Five Nations have an outlet for expansion, rather than block them outright.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 15, 2020, 01:07:23 PM
Curious to see if the Aztecs continue to try and bleed the Romans with what remains of their navy or if this battle effectively ends things.

Rome has been offered a settlement of one particularly worthless piece of Texas desert for islands so apparently strategic that Rome would commit to a war of annihilation.

It remains to be seen if Rome will accept the offer or if a few hundred thousand Roman's need to die first.  Whenever the international papers get the casualty lists from ironbottom bay, and the Aztecs will be honestly sending those as it's a glorious last stand against overwhelming odds......I wonder how long Rome will abide its governments excess.  I figure they can suppress their own papers, but not iberian and wilno papers getting across the border.  Ten thousand men and all that shipping lost in a fight with opposition that would be considered clearly inferior?  Plus the lies about grand turk.......

So where are things at now, guys?

Nothing really happened in September, waiting on October results.

Quote from: snip on November 24, 2020, 03:45:40 PM
Nothing really happened in September, waiting on October results.

Waiting on me to submit October orders.   Probably tonight.   Latest tomorrow morning.

More blood for the blood god, then.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 24, 2020, 04:46:13 PM
More blood for the blood god, then.

One always hopes for no.  Rome only need cease this folly and the spilling of blood ceases with it.  Upon the Emperor's Hands does all of this blood flow, upon his shoulders does the responsibility for this war lie. 

So I have the two sides October orders, which I will resolve tomorrow, then come back for November orders. So things will be moving along shortly.
I have time this weekend to get caught up on that, and start my prep for the next Expansion phase.

I flaked and didn't get to it until tonight.

Onto November !

To answer Rocky's question from the story thread...

As far as characters go, Fabron is going to get the MacArthur treatment. To politicly expensive to fire because the press blew his accomplishments up to 11, but he made exactly zero friends at the Admiralty and lost most of those he had for sticking two Dreadnaughts into a mined-water scenario. As far as ships go, on my side, Argonauta did a ton more work then I though she would.

Tac and I will catch Texas up as we have time, but by October/November I would expect that we are starting to see the early stages of trench warfare in the Texas panhandle. The far north would likely still see mobile horseback action.

Just an FYI to all, this conflict will be coming to a close in December 1914. Tac and I will be finishing up the story work on it as time permits, along with the peace conference. The peace conference will be finished IC by 1915H2, but we will have the OOC framework of the agreement set soon.

...so it will be over by Christmas?

ish

dangit!  There goes the Iberian market for used slightly scratched military hardware

Quote from: Darman on December 13, 2020, 12:16:29 AM
dangit!  There goes the Iberian market for used slightly scratched military hardware

The Japanese, Aztec, and even Roman fleets have taken big hits.
I think you will still find some buyers.

So what am I supposed to do now with this invasion fleet?

I'd suggest using to attack the Maya. They are cuddly AND next door to your new possessions.
oh, and you already started a war with them.

Or you could still take a swing at me, Im sure the Japanese Marines would love to learn the same lessons their Roman counterparts have just gotten.

QuoteI'd suggest using to attack the Maya. They are cuddly AND next door to your new possessions. oh, and you already started a war with them.

Such slander! We have done no such thing! Those were just Japanese vacationing in Baja! I hear its nice this time of year!  ;D

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/28/russians-troops-fighting-in-ukraine-naw-just-on-vacation/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/28/russians-troops-fighting-in-ukraine-naw-just-on-vacation/)

You'll have to explain that to the Mayans, I'm sure they will be receptive to the babblings of the imperialist warmongers seeking to overthrow the people's regime.

A note on the conference, which I think I already mentioned earlier. Tac and I have already agreed on what the IC agreement will represent, we just figured it would far more interactive to play it out. If at any point someone has a 1915H2 plan that its absolutely critical to know the resolution of this, I'd be happy to provide that information privately.

Quote from: snip on December 23, 2020, 09:14:52 PM
A note on the conference, which I think I already mentioned earlier. Tac and I have already agreed on what the IC agreement will represent, we just figured it would far more interactive to play it out. If at any point someone has a 1915H2 plan that its absolutely critical to know the resolution of this, I'd be happy to provide that information privately.

Iberia was planning on sending a massive wave of shipping and infrastructure BP to the Caicos in a soft-power attempt at conquering the islands themselves by building a 5G wifi network using only Iberian parts.....

Quote from: snip on December 23, 2020, 09:14:52 PM
a 1915H2 plan

Sorry, disregard the previous comment....I thought you said 2015H2....

My legion of K-Pop* girl-bands have already conquered the local youth, Darman.



*Krakow Pop

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 26, 2020, 06:00:18 AM
My legion of K-Pop* girl-bands have already conquered the local youth, Darman.



*Krakow Pop

I'm going to take this opportunity to drop this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gY1AHjq1y8) as what I imagine Krakow Pop to sound like.

Quote from: snip on December 26, 2020, 08:12:50 AM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 26, 2020, 06:00:18 AM
My legion of K-Pop* girl-bands have already conquered the local youth, Darman.



*Krakow Pop

I'm going to take this opportunity to drop this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gY1AHjq1y8) as what I imagine Krakow Pop to sound like.

This is now canon.

Quote from: snip on December 26, 2020, 08:12:50 AM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 26, 2020, 06:00:18 AM
My legion of K-Pop* girl-bands have already conquered the local youth, Darman.



*Krakow Pop

I'm going to take this opportunity to drop this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gY1AHjq1y8) as what I imagine Krakow Pop to sound like.

Would explain why the locals would rather dig trenches than willingly accept European overlords......and all the music they'd bring.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 26, 2020, 09:33:44 AM

Quote from: snip on December 26, 2020, 08:12:50 AM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 26, 2020, 06:00:18 AM
My legion of K-Pop* girl-bands have already conquered the local youth, Darman.



*Krakow Pop

I'm going to take this opportunity to drop this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gY1AHjq1y8) as what I imagine Krakow Pop to sound like.

This is now canon.

The Khanate just forbid "Dancing Men" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyiEaSzpdMk), so they are seeking refuge...

Also inspirational.

I mean[urlhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB-mPCIBckM] this is the only acceptable dancing song[/url] in the Golden Hoard.

I am a Rasputin fan myself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYnVYJDxu2Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYnVYJDxu2Q), but those are some epic videos.

So there I am with two perfectly good diplomatic ships sitting in Haiti, and neither side took the opportunity to travel to Bermuda in comfort...

Having done the drive from Denver to Kansas City, I can say that part of the country is the most mind-numbingly dull area I've ever driven thru.  Ten hours of absolutely nothing but farms and cows.

Quote from: Desertfox on January 14, 2021, 05:24:50 PM
Having done the drive from Denver to Kansas City, I can say that part of the country is the most mind-numbingly dull area I've ever driven thru.  Ten hours of absolutely nothing but farms and cows.

I have a buddy that likes flat areas, and I've met folks who like the cows & farms view as peaceful, orderly and calm.
Of course that buddy is moving to Northern Maine and plans on having some cows... so he may be biased.

I like mountains/steep hills or sea, and I want at least some trees.
Coincidentally, I live a mile from the sea, and work in a forest in the coastal mountains...huh, I may be biased too.

Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on January 15, 2021, 09:46:55 AM

Quote from: Desertfox on January 14, 2021, 05:24:50 PM
Having done the drive from Denver to Kansas City, I can say that part of the country is the most mind-numbingly dull area I've ever driven thru.  Ten hours of absolutely nothing but farms and cows.

I have a buddy that likes flat areas, and I've met folks who like the cows & farms view as peaceful, orderly and calm.
Of course that buddy is moving to Northern Maine and plans on having some cows... so he may be biased.

I like mountains/steep hills or sea, and I want at least some trees.
Coincidentally, I live a mile from the sea, and work in a forest in the coastal mountains...huh, I may be biased too.

I visited Arizona once.... I liked the mountains, nothing looks quite like them in New England, ours are covered in trees and rarely do you have 50+ miles of flat open land from which to view them from afar.  But when I found out the largest body of water was a manmade reservoir that I could almost throw a stone across (I said ALMOST!!!)...I decided I preferred my sea-side paradise

Its interesting to see what people value. I would have given up all of Kansas for the Texas panhandle and the southernmost Texas province.

It would be kinda weird if I ended up with a land border with the Aztecs.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on January 20, 2021, 06:10:21 PM
It would be kinda weird if I ended up with a land border with the Aztecs.

We're good neighbors.   We don't start wars

The Maya *may* have a different view..

Quote from: TacCovert4 on January 20, 2021, 07:00:03 PM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on January 20, 2021, 06:10:21 PM
It would be kinda weird if I ended up with a land border with the Aztecs.

We're good neighbors.   We don't start wars

I'm not complaining.  It would just be weird if I started on the east coast and you in Mexico and we met anywhere.

Though I assume Rome intends to continue northward, so it's likely moot.

Theoretically, we could also end up having a land border in North America, that would be a tad more difficult. Now South America is a bit more likely...

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on January 20, 2021, 08:01:44 PM
Though I assume Rome intends to continue northward, so it's likely moot.

Throws more money at the border provinces along the Mississippi