A paper on Cruisers:
http://www.aandc.org/research/cruisers/cr_navsea.html#LinkTarget_8265
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/staty.php
Useful site about WWII warships. The useful part for us are the line drawings of all the WWI vintage vessels which survived up to that time.
Like this pretty Spanish cruiser:
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=&period=2&idtrida=1685
Borys
http://www.steelnavy.com/
While the page is mainly dedicated to model rewievs, descriptions and comments, there is quite allot of informations about ships, and of course plenty on the looks of ships.
A nice thing is that there is many odd or uncommon ships represented on the site, such as USS Kearsarge and Tsarevitch.
The films here are a MUST see. I suggest a download, though.
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/tech/
The Czech site now added a section for WWI ships:
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/staty.php?language=E&period=1
Other links to ship websites:
http://www.viribusunitis.ca
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm
http://www.kuk-kriegsmarine.at/
http://hazegray.org/
http://www.german-navy.de/
http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/
http://www.uboat.net/wwi/types/
http://www.submariners.co.uk/Boats/Barrowbuilt/index.htm
Some Wikipedia links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battleships
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cruisers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyer_classes
http://www.geocities.com/mppraetorius/
http://www.greatoceanliners.net/index2.html
Historical French ship plans (http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/02fonds-collections/banquedocuments/planbato/planbato/listebato/listebato.php)
http://uboat.net/wwi/types/ (http://uboat.net/wwi/types/)
A wealth of knowledge on the capabilities of pre-WWI through WWII submarines in the German Navy. By referencing the attributes of these real boats, you can make a decent fictional sub.
Quote from: Carthaginian on August 13, 2007, 03:02:31 PM
http://uboat.net/wwi/types/ (http://uboat.net/wwi/types/)
A wealth of knowledge on the capabilities of pre-WWI through WWII submarines in the German Navy. By referencing the attributes of these real boats, you can make a decent fictional sub.
And specifically for Dutch submarines :http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/
And if you happen to read Swedish : http://www.submarines.nu/index-1.htm
For those not following Warships1 discussion
from Leo F:
6"/47 Triple Turret Cl-42 and CL-48: Inner Diameter 17 ft.
6"/47 Triple Turret Cl-55 and 106 Classes: Inner Diameter 17 ft.
6"/47 Twin Turret CL-144 Class: Inner Diameter 18 ft. 10 in.
8"/55 Triple Turret CA 27, 28, 31 and 33: Inner Diameter 19 ft. 4.75 in.
8"/55 Triple Turret CA 32 and 36: Inner Diameter 21 ft.
8"/55 Tripe Turret CA 37 and 38: Inner Diameter 19 ft. 9 in.
8"/55 Triple Turret CA 45: Inner Diameter 22 ft. 6 in.
8"/55 Triple Turret CA 68 and 122 Classes, CAG 1 and 2: Inner Diameter 22 ft. 6 in.
12"/50 Triple Turret CB 1 and 2: Inner Diameter 30 ft.
14"/50 Triple Turret BB 43-44: Inner Diameter 31 ft.
16"/45 Twin Turret BB 45, 46 and 48: Inner Diameter 31 ft.
16"/45 Triple Turret BB 55 and 57 Classes: Inner Diameter 37 ft 3 in.
16"/50 Triple Turret BB 61 Class: Inner Diameter 37 ft 3 in.
These are the inner diameters of the stationary barbette at the top of the barbette.
Creeping Death1929
Japanese 6"/50 twin: 4.2 meters(13.78 feet)
Japanese 6.1"/60 triple: 5.71 meters(18.73 feet)
Japanese 7.9"/50 single: 3.2 meters( 10.5 feet)
Japanese 8"/50 twin: 5.03 meters(16.5 feet.)
This is the roller path diameter.
Tony D:
USN
8"/55 Three-gun Turret CA-134 class: Inner diameter 26 ft. 0 in.
14"/45 Triple Turret BB-36 class: Inner diameter 30 ft. 0 in.
14"/45 Triple Turret BB-38 class: Inner diameter 29 ft. 0 in.
14"/45 Two-gun Turret BB-34 and BB-36 classes: Inner diameter 28 ft. 0 in.
12"/50 Two-gun Turret BB-32 class: Roller path outer diameter 24 ft. 11 in.
UK RN
16"/45 Three-gun Turret Nelson class: Inner diameter 38 ft. 6 in.
15"/42 Two-gun Turret: Inner diameter 30 ft. 6 in.
14"/45 Two-gun Turret KGV: Inner diameter 29 ft. 6 in.
14"/45 Four-gun Turret KGV: Inner diameter 40 ft. 0 in.
8"/50 Two-gun Turret County classes inner diameter: 20 ft. 6 in.
6"/50 Two-gun Turret Leander/Perth/Arethusa cruisers inner diameter: 17 ft. 6 in.
6"/50 Three-gun Turret Town/Colony cruisers inner diameter: 23 ft. 6 in.
6"/50 Two-gun Turret Nelson class inner diameter: 17 ft. 9 in.
bager1968:
Additionally,
12"/50 Triple Turret CB 1 and 2: Roller path outer diameter 26 ft. 11 in.
14"/50 Triple Turret BB 43-44: Roller path outer diameter 28 ft. 1 in.
16"/45 Twin Turret BB 45, 46 and 48: Roller path outer diameter 27 ft. 7 in.
Which brings this up:
Taking into account both the roller path outer and barbette inner diameters, and weight of the rotating parts of the turrets, if the turrets and guns were available, the Tennessee, California, New Mexico, Idaho, & Mississippi could have had their high-dispersion triple 14"/50 turrets replaced with twin 16"/45 turrets identical to those of Maryland, West Virginia, & Colorado... forming a homogenous 16" battle-line of 8 ships... with the 6- 14"/45 gunned BBs as back-up.
Outlawed by WNT & 1LNT, of course, but an interesting thought.
14"/50 Triple Turret BB 43-44 (& 40-42?): Inner Diameter 31 ft.; Roller path outer diameter 28 ft. 1 in.; Rotating weight 958 tons [1127 tons total turret weight]
16"/45 Twin Turret BB 45, 46 and 48: Inner Diameter 31 ft.; Roller path outer diameter 27 ft. 7 in.; Rotating weight 900 tons [1245 tons total turret weight]
P3D :
...
Tegethoff 3x12"/45 - ID 32' (9.75m) , OD 34' (10.5m), roller ring OD 28' (8.5m)
...
To get OD, just add twice the barbette armor and a bit
12" twin : 28'-30' OD
Kriegsmarine ships
The 11inch triples had an internal barbette diameter of 10.2m of 33.46ft.
The 15 inch twins were 10.0m and 32.81ft.
Looking at French deisgns
Bretagne 13.4" twin ~8.2m (27')
Lanquedoc 13.4" quad ~11.6m (39')
THIS (http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200I-0023-0033%20Report%20S-12.pdf) document list some statistics about Japanese WWII merchant ships.
Battleship cost, WWI
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/wcosts.htm
From the BC forum: (http://www.bobhenneman.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5519&sid=73be6bff47f9055bbd4825213858f470)
British Mark XXII 152mm (6') Southampton, Gloucester:
Revolving weight 150 tons
Roller path diameter 19'
Barbette int diameter 23'6"
Guns axes separation 78"
British Mark XXIII 152mm (6") Belfast, Fiji:
Revolving weight 174 tons
Roller path diameter 19ft
Barbette int diameter 23'6"
Guns axes separation 78"
US 6" Cleveland, Fargo:
Revolving weight 173 tons
Roller path diameter 15'3"
Barbette int diameter 17'
Guns axes separation 55"
Overall length turret overhang to end of barrels 42'
Working Circle 43'3"
US 6" Brooklyn, Helena:
Revolving weight 167 tons
Roller path diameter 15'3"
Barbette int diameter 17'
Guns axes separation 55"
Overall length turret overhang to end of barrels 42'
Working Circle 43'3"
Japanese 15.5cm (6.1") Mogami/ Yamato:
Revolving weight 177 tons
Roller path diameter 18'9"
Guns axes separation 61"
Turret length, not including guns 27'.8"
Turret width at widest point of rangefinder 29'2.4"
Turret at widest point not including rangefinder 19'6"
German 15cm (5.9") Koln, Leipzig, Nurnberg
Revolving weight 134.8 tons
Roller path diameter 14'76"
Barbette int diameter 18'7"
Guns axes separation 61"
French 152.4mm (6") Emile Bertin, La Galissonniere
Revolving weight 169.3 tons
Roller path diameter 15'3"
Barbette int diameter 19'1"
Guns axes separation 65"
French 152.4 (6") Richelieu
Revolving weight 224.4 tons
Roller path diameter 21'8.6"
Barbette int diameter 23'11"
Guns axes separation 72.8"
Italian 152.4mm (6") Littorio, Garibaldi
Revolving weight (not including shield which varied by class) 133.3 tons
Roller path diameter 16'5"
Barbette int diameter 19'"
Guns axes separation 50"
Argentina 152.4mm (6") La Argentina
Revolving weight 139 tons
Roller path diameter 17'6"
Barbette int diameter 21'
Guns axes separation 48"
Even more liners:
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/descriptions/index.htm
WWI war emergency merchant ships
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/WWlStandardBuilt.htm
http://www.mo-na-ko.net/lode-monografie.htm
Some nice drawings of ships, quite a few from our era.
Excelent site Korpen, anyone have data on HMS Abercrombie I found it interesting.
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/WeaponBook/Fleet.htm
Drawings, compartmentalization, armor schemes for ships.
Click on book covers (after decyphering the Cyrillic script or looking at the link address itself) then click on the drawings section "Chertezhi i skemi" (usually the last or the penultimate link).
Ahoj!
I can (barely) read Russian, so I can be consulted :)
Borys
Really nice page about HMS Flygia, and her 1931-32 long cruise.
http://www.flottansman.se/Alvsnabben/fylgia3132/fylgia3132.htm
The page is in Swedish, but for those who, for some reason, cannot read it, there is plenty of pretty pictures. :)
A US floating drydock. 53000t capacity, own displacement is 47000t light. 1050'x175'.
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s-file/s584162.jpg
Flow of Water through Holes In Gallons Per Minute
http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/library/tables/holes.htm
Whitehead torpedoes
http://comunidad.ciudad.com.ar/argentina/capital_federal/cldwch/index.html
Korpen:
I already linked that website a few posts back.
I had previous posted this elsewhere, but I figured it would be useful here.
Historical Length/Beam ratios of a selection of capital ships designed and built between 1900 and the Washington Treaty. In compiling these, I believe they are all without bulges:
| US: |
| Maine(2): | 5.45 |
| Virginia: | 5.79 |
| Connecticut: | 5.95 |
| South Carolina: | 5.65 |
| Delaware: | 6.09 |
| Florida: | 5.91 |
| Wyoming: | 6.03 |
| New York: | 6.0 |
| Nevada: | 6.12 |
| Pennsylvania: | 6.27 |
| New Mexico: | 6.43 |
| Tennessee: | 6.41 |
| Colorado: | 6.41 |
| South Dakota (1): | 6.51 |
| Lexington (as BC): | 8.38 |
|
| UK: |
| Duncan: | 5.72 |
| King Edward VII: | 5.81 |
| Swiftsure: | 6.75 |
| Lord Nelson: | 5.58 |
| Dreadnaught: | 6.43 |
| Bellerophon: | 6.38 |
| Neptune: | 6.42 |
| Orion: | 6.60 |
| King George V: | 6.72 |
| Iron Duke: | 6.92 |
| Agincourt: | 7.54 |
| Queen Elizabeth: | 7.14 |
| Revenge: | 7.09 |
| Invinicble: | 7.22 |
| Indefatigable: | 7.38 |
| Lion: | 7.9 |
| Tiger: | 7.77 |
| Renown: | 8.82 |
| Hood: | 8.26 |
|
| Germany: |
| Wittlesbach: | 5.52 |
| Braunschweig: | 5.81 |
| Deutschland: | 5.74 |
| Nassau: | 5.43 |
| Helgoland: | 5.87 |
| Kaiser: | 5.94 |
| Konig: | 5.94 |
| Bayern: | 6.0 |
| Von Der Tann: | 6.45 |
| Moltke: | 6.22 |
| Seydlitz: | 7.04 |
| Derfflinger: | 7.25 |
| Mackensen: | 7.34 |
| Ersatz Yorck: | 7.47 |
|
| France: | |
| Republique: | 5.58 |
| Liberte: | 5.52 |
| Danton: | 5.62 |
| Courbet: | 5.94 |
| Bretagne: | 6.17 |
| Normandie: | 6.23 |
| Lyon: | 6.59 |
|
| Italy: |
| Alighieri: | 6.32 |
| Cavour: | 6.03 |
| Andrea Doria: | 6.03 |
| Caracciolo: | 6.81 |
|
| Austria: |
| Viribus Unitis: | 5.44 |
|
| Russia: |
| Borodino: | 5.26 |
| Evstafi: | 5.24 |
| Pervozvanny: | 5.74 |
| Gangut: | 6.77 |
| Imperatritsa Mariya: | 6.14 |
|
| Japan: |
| Mikasa: | 5.92 |
| Katori: | 5.40 |
| Satsuma: | 5.38 |
| Settsu: | 6.27 |
| Fuso: | 6.96 |
| Ise: | 6.80 |
| Nagato: | 6.39 |
| Kongo: | 7.65 |
More Barbette diameters, thanks to Borys
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2937&highlight=&mforum=warshipprojects
9.2"/50, twin, Model No 8 for Lord Nelson: Inner diameter 19 ft. 6 in
8"/50 Two-gun Turret County classes inner diameter: 20 ft. 6 in.
6"/50 Three-gun Turret Town/Colony cruisers inner diameter: 23 ft. 6 in.
6"/50 Two-gun Turret Leander/Perth/Arethusa cruisers inner diameter: 17 ft. 6 in.
6"/50 Two-gun Turret Nelson class inner diameter: 17 ft. 9 in.
Quote...
Data on early 20C gun mountings is hard to come by, but the Italian 10in twins on San Giorgio were Elswick pattern and had roller path diameter 17'6". I would not expect the barbette diameter to be more than 3' greater. The figures for the Italian/Armstrong 12in were 24'6 and 28'.
Thurston (Vickers designer) gives internal barbette diameters 21'0" for HMS Swiftsure's 10in L45s; 21'6" for Rurik's 10in L50s.
An L45 10in (450") is a bit shorter than an L50 (460") or L51 (469") 9.2in; an L50 10in about 3ft longer, showing you don't need that much bigger barbette. Most of the extra length is outside, in the barrel.
Simply scaling down the L50 in proportion to 10" to 9.2" gives an internal barbette diameter of about 19'9", a bit more than Thurston's 19'6, so calling the L51 an L50 9.4in (as it was originally) would give 20'3" scaled down from the 10in; 19'11 scaled up from 9.2in. Call it 20', as the scaling down from 10 to 9.2 gave a slightly high result.
Mainly about pre-dreadnoughts, but covering most major nations.
http://www.cityofart.net/bship/site_nav.html
Nicked of the Warship Projects forum.
If useless/redundant, please let me know and I'll delete. Maybe can be added to something similar posted by P3D?
Alaska 12" 50 cal. triple turret has a barbette int. dia. of 30 ft. and a revolving weight of 934 tons.
Oklahoma 14" 45 cal. triple turret has a barbette int. dia. of 30 ft and a revolving weight of 748 tons.
Oklahoma 14" 45 cal. twin turret has a barbette int. dia. of 28 ft int. dia. and a revolving weight of 618 tons.
Arizona 14" 45 cal. triple turret has a barbette int. dia. of 29 ft. 0 in. (I think this is questionable, it is probably the same as Oklahoma's, but that is what I found somewhere)
Some questions have come up about the realism of our light displacement/1000 months +9 time to build rule. Taking a randomish sampling of some real world examples(TT is the total real world time in months, NT is the total time we might expect that ship to build in Navalism in months):
Big stuff
USS Vermont: LD 21/05/04 Launch 31/08/05 Comm 04/03/07 TT(Months): 22 NT(Months): 23
USS N. Dakota: LD 16/12/07 Launch 10/11/08 Comm 11/04/10 TT(Months): 29 NT(Months): 27
USS Washington: LD 14/06/38 Launch 01/06/40 Comm 15/05/41 TT(Months): 35 NT(Months): 41
HMS Dreadnought: LD 02/10/05 Launch 10/02/06 Comm 2/12/06 TT(Months): 14 NT(Months): 25
HMS Iron Duke: LD 12/01/12 Launch 12/10/12 Comm 12/03/14 TT(Months): 26 NT(Months): 32
SMS Nassau: LD: 22/07/07 Launch: 07/03/08 Comm: 01/10/09 TT(Months): 28 NT(Months): 28
FS Paris: LD: 10/11/11 Launch: 28/09/12 Comm: 01/08/14 TT(Months): 33 NT(Months): 29
IJN Nagato: LD: 28/08/17 Launch: 09/11/19 Comm: 15/11/20 TT(Months): 39 NT(Months): 37
IJN Musashi: LD: 29/03/38 Launch: 01/11/40 Comm: 05/08/42 TT (Months): 52 NT (Months): 71
RN Caio Duilio: LD: 24/02/12 Launch: 24/04/13 Comm: 13/06/16 TT(Months): 50 NT(Months): 30
ARA Rivadavia: LD: 25/05/10 Launch: 26/08/11 Comm: 27/08/14 TT(Months): 51 NT(Months): 34
Some smaller stuff:
HMS Birmingham: LD: 10/06/12 Launch: 07/05/13 Comm: 02/1914 TT(Months): 20 NT(Months): 13
USS Raleigh: LD: 16/08/20 Launch: 25/10/22 Comm: 06/02/24 TT(Months): 42 NT(Months): 15
USS Philadelphia: LD: 28/05/35 Launch: 17/11/36 Comm: 23/09/37 TT(Months): 28 (NT Months): 18
IJN Mikuma: LD: 24/12/31 Launch: 31/05/34 Comm: 29/08/35 TT(Months): 44 NT (Months): 18
USS Goldsborough: LD: 08/06/18 Launch: 20/11/18 Comm: 26/01/20 TT(Months): 19 NT (Months): 10
HMS Vampire: LD: 10/10/16 Launch: 21/05/17 Comm: 22/09/17 TT(Months): 11 NT (Months): 10
HMS Daring: LD: 18/06/31 Launch: 04/07/32 Comm: 25/11/32 TT(Months): 17 NT (Months): 10
FS Fantasque: LD: 15/11/31 Launch: 15/03/34 Comm: 01/05/36 TT(Months): 53 NT (Months): 11
Block Coefficents:
First US ships, all from Friedman's books:
CVs:
USS Langley: 0.70
USS Lexington: 0.564
USS Ranger: 0.457
USS Yorktown: 0.527
USS Wasp: 0.583
USS Essex: 0.573
USS Midway: 0.605
BBs:
USS Indiana: 0.622
USS Iowa (BB-4): 0.637
USS Louisianna: 0.660
USS Michigan: 0.637
USS North Dakota: 0.600
USS Utah: 0.584
USS Arkansas: 0.622
USS Texas: 0.616
USS Nevada: 0.617
USS Pennsylvania: 0.650
USS New Mexico: 0.638
USS Tennessee: 0.635
USS West Virginia: 0.640
USS South Dakota (BB-49): 0.662
USS Washington: 0.622
USS South Dakota (BB-57): 0.613
USS Iowa: 0.593
USS Montana: 0.665
Cruisers:
USS Olympia: 0.520
USS Brooklyn: 0.520
USS South Dakota (ACR-9): 0.569
USS Montana (ACR-13): 0.560
USS Birmingham: 0.553
USS Concord: 0.606
USS Lexington (as BC): 0.501
USS Salt Lake City: 0.563
USS Louisville: 0.552
USS Indianapolis: 0.535
USS Tuscaloosa: 0.533
USS Boise: 0.516
USS Wichita: 0.516
USS Atlanta: 0.502
USS Cleveland: 0.503
USS Baltimore: 0.525
USS Des Moines: 0.543
USS Worcester: 0.546
USS Alaska: 0.539
DDs:
USS Bainbridge (DD-1): 0.43
USS Lawrence (DD-8): 0.428
USS Smith (DD-17): 0.407
USS Paulding (DD-22): 0.410
USS Perkins (DD-26): 0.414
USS Trippe (DD-33): 0.412
USS Henley (DD-39): 0.410
USS Downes (DD-45): 0.423
USS Tucker (DD-57): 0.443
USS Rowan (DD-64): 0.452
USS Gwin (DD-71): 0.510
USS Wickes (DD-75): 0.470
USS Kimberly (DD-80): 0.470
USS Preble (DD-345): 0.478
USS Farragut (DD-348): 0.522
USS Porter (DD-356): 0.487
USS Sampson (DD-394): 0.482
USS Gridley (DD-380): 0.488
USS Benham (DD-397): 0.480
USS Fletcher (DD-445): 0.499
USS Barton (DD-722): 0.520
USS Charles R. Ware (DD-865): 0.540
Some others I could dig up with a little googling:
Bismarck: 0.550
Yamato: 0.596
It would be fair to say that most of those ships are chunkier than I'd have expected.
I think, particularly in large ships that were approaching the Panama Canal limits, that we might want to consider US ships as the upper limit of the range of reasonable BC values. That's just a guess though, as I haven't collected much data yet about other navies.
QuoteBismarck: 0.550
And to think, the SS Demo on Bismark has 0.572 as it's BC
The French Nverse ships are slender with a big waist then. But I won't change it now, I like 'm that way.
Quote from: Sachmle on August 12, 2009, 09:53:37 AM
QuoteBismarck: 0.550
And to think, the SS Demo on Bismark has 0.572 as it's BC
We may have a source conflict there. I'll have to dig around and find where I found the value I've got. If I had to guess, my guess is the SS demo is wrong...
Looking at my Scharnhorst book and Bismarck book, they should be the same. The book also indicates that the longitudinal prismatic coefficient is 0.55.
I am not so sure about the correctness of the SS demo BCs. Of the SS 1.1 files, Alaska was simmed with a BC of 0.466 and Yamato 0.678.
For seeing the line drawings of many ships, I use: http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/ships/
Its not first-hand sources, but it helps greatly; like with the US Four-Stackers on the placement of the Torpedo Tubes.
Found a pretty good site on (pre)dreadnoughts, armored and protected cruisers.
http://www.bigbadbattleships.com/
For the merchant navy, an interesting paper (http://belleindochine.free.fr/images/MessagerieFluviale/00302120.JPG) : the maritime lines the of passenger ships of the French company Messageries Maritimes for Asia and their dates of passage in different harbours, for 1912.
http://www.collectibleblueprints.com/Ships.html
Blueprints of various ships - mostly American, but the odd other vessel. Potentially a useful resource for those folks drawing their ships.
Found this (http://3dhistory.de/wordpress/?page_id=986 (http://3dhistory.de/wordpress/?page_id=986))
Lots of blueprints for French battleships. Might be useful for internal layout stuff.