Well i am planning to lay down a new class of torpedoboat destroyers to replace my old c-class ships.
At the moment is am a bit uncertain witch of the two versions i should go for. Version 1 is slightly slower (therefore a better sea boat) but carries a heavier gun armament consisting of three 12cm guns.
Version 2 is slightly faster and armed with three of the powerful Dutch 10cm guns instead. Both designs have 10t assigned to radio equipment.
The 12cm guns has a slightly lower rate of fire of between 6 and 10 RPM, while 10cm guns can be expected to fire at between 10 and 15 RPM.
The ammunition for the lighter gun is a bit easier to handle, but the heavier gun can be expected to cripple a enemy torpedo boat with a single hit.
At he moment i think i lean towards the 12cm version, but i am interested in what other thinks.
Version 1:
F-Class, Nederländerna Torpedobootjager laid down 1906 (Engine 1905)
Displacement:
750 t light; 776 t standard; 884 t normal; 971 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
262,47 ft / 262,47 ft x 26,25 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
80,00 m / 80,00 m x 8,00 m x 3,00 m
Armament:
3 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 159 lbs / 72 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 14 000 shp / 10 444 Kw = 27,36 kts
Range 2 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 195 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
80 - 105
Cost:
£0,112 million / $0,447 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 20 tons, 2,2 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0,4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0,4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 493 tons, 55,8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 218 tons, 24,7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 134 tons, 15,2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 1,8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
207 lbs / 94 Kg = 3,9 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,60
Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 9,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,456
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16,67 ft / 5,08 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (40 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Stern: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Average freeboard: 11,50 ft / 3,51 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 198,2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80,7 %
Waterplane Area: 4 417 Square feet or 410 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 36 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 120 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,88
- Overall: 0,57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Version 2
F-Class, Nederländerna Torpedobootjager laid down 1906 (Engine 1905)
Displacement:
750 t light; 773 t standard; 881 t normal; 968 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
262,47 ft / 262,47 ft x 26,25 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
80,00 m / 80,00 m x 8,00 m x 3,00 m
Armament:
3 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37,48lbs / 17,00kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 112 lbs / 51 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 14 800 shp / 11 041 Kw = 27,74 kts
Range 2 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 195 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
80 - 105
Cost:
£0,107 million / $0,428 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 11 tons, 1,3 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0,3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0,3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 508 tons, 57,7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 212 tons, 24,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 131 tons, 14,8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 1,8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
207 lbs / 94 Kg = 6,8 x 3,9 " / 100 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,63
Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 9,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,15
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,455
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16,67 ft / 5,08 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (40 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Stern: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Average freeboard: 11,50 ft / 3,51 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 197,7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80,6 %
Waterplane Area: 4 411 Square feet or 410 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 35 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 117 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,84
- Overall: 0,57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ahoj!
F.
These boats are for the North Sea, where the weather is bad. I'd expect the lighter guns to have double the ROF of the larger gun. And with the awful accuracy to be expected from small lively boats, it is the weight of metal in the air which will count.
I'd increase the number of rounds carried - to 150-200.
ADDED LATER:
I'm not so sure if that much ammunition is needed after all ... need data on RL ammunition supply.
Borys
What does the 120mm add compared to the 100mm guns?
These ships have and need torpedo's to go against the bigger ones. Like Protected cruisers. So the heavier punch of the 120mm won't add a lot in that respect, especialy not when going against a well designed ship.
And to shoot their foreign breathren 100mm is big enough.
What I would do is something like this.
Quote
Van Galen, Netherlands Destroyer laid down 1906
Displacement:
799 t light; 830 t standard; 903 t normal; 961 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
290,78 ft / 285,43 ft x 25,26 ft x 8,69 ft (normal load)
88,63 m / 87,00 m x 7,70 m x 2,65 m
Armament:
3 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30,51lbs / 13,84kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns (3 mounts), 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 114 lbs / 52 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 12.924 shp / 9.641 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 2.000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 131 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
82 - 107
Cost:
£0,107 million / $0,430 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 14 tons, 1,6%
Machinery: 482 tons, 53,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 268 tons, 29,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 103 tons, 11,5%
Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 3,9%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
272 lbs / 124 Kg = 8,9 x 3,9 " / 100 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,39
Metacentric height 1,1 ft / 0,3 m
Roll period: 10,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,40
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0,504
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,89 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m (12,04 ft / 3,67 m aft of break)
- Mid (50%): 12,04 ft / 3,67 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m before break)
- Stern: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 12,26 ft / 3,74 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95,7%
Waterplane Area: 4.822 Square feet or 448 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 128 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,57
- Longitudinal: 2,17
- Overall: 0,65
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The 35 tons misc weight is a marconi instalation and 2 reloads for each tube, + reloading crane.
Ahoj!
Very nice ship Maddox.
The 2000 range is plenty, could be cut down to 1500. I do not "see" such a small ship carrying reloads, let alone a crane. The Japanese used dollies, I think.
As the torpedos are small, maybe carry 6 TT?
As the bow gun is on the raised Forecastle, it also counts as "elevated"
As you overshot the 750 ton limit by almost 50 tons, these savings would be appreciated :)
ADDED LATER:
I almost forgot - NOT ENOUGH DECKSPACE!
:)
Borys
I aimed for the 800 tons limit on destroyers according the rules. ;)
With the Dutch having the best gun lay out for destroyers I see the room for another 100mm gun.
Removed 2 of 57mm anti TB guns and elevated the 2 8mm machine to clear deckspace.
Also, took 200 shells for the main guns compared to the 180 in the previous version.
Added 2 torpedo tubes and removed all the reloads and equipment I did see as possible.
QuoteVan Galen, Netherlands Destroyer laid down 1906
Displacement:
746 t light; 779 t standard; 858 t normal; 922 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
290,78 ft / 285,43 ft x 25,26 ft x 8,20 ft (normal load)
88,63 m / 87,00 m x 7,70 m x 2,50 m
Armament:
4 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30,51lbs / 13,84kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
2 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 133 lbs / 61 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 12.558 shp / 9.368 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 1.500nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 143 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
79 - 103
Cost:
£0,104 million / $0,417 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 17 tons, 1,9%
Machinery: 458 tons, 53,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 267 tons, 31,1%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 112 tons, 13,1%
Miscellaneous weights: 5 tons, 0,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
272 lbs / 123 Kg = 8,9 x 3,9 " / 100 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,43
Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 9,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,31
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,41
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0,508
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,89 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m (12,04 ft / 3,67 m aft of break)
- Mid (50%): 12,04 ft / 3,67 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m before break)
- Stern: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 12,26 ft / 3,74 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81,1%
Waterplane Area: 4.840 Square feet or 450 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 44%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 129 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,57
- Longitudinal: 2,17
- Overall: 0,65
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The 5 tons is for the short ranged marconi
Ahoj!
Where do you see space for another gun?
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/hochseeflotte/gtb1906.gif
Borys
While the torpedo armament might be considered light, i consider one of the main purposes of my TBJ;s is to defend my well-armed but slow capital ships from enemy TBs. So therefore the powerful guns, and few torpedoes. The misc weight is still enough to allow a 10t radio set, and the increased seakeeping will be nice in the north sea (were most of these ships will serve).
And I thiknk MGs are more effective at that ranges were the 5cm gun might be usefull.
F-Class, Nederländerna Torpedobootjager laid down 1906 (Engine 1905)
(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2756/fclass1wn7.png)
Displacement:
750 t light; 777 t standard; 886 t normal; 973 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
288,28 ft / 278,87 ft x 25,75 ft x 9,19 ft (normal load)
87,87 m / 85,00 m x 7,85 m x 2,80 m
Armament:
3 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37,48lbs / 17,00kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 113 lbs / 51 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 14 000 shp / 10 444 Kw = 27,60 kts
Range 2 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 196 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
80 - 105
Cost:
£0,107 million / $0,427 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 11 tons, 1,3 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0,3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0,3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 505 tons, 57,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 216 tons, 24,4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 136 tons, 15,3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 1,7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
215 lbs / 98 Kg = 7,0 x 3,9 " / 100 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,63
Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 8,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,17
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,470
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1,64 ft / 0,50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16,67 ft / 5,08 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (40 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Stern: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Average freeboard: 11,50 ft / 3,51 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 195,9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86,5 %
Waterplane Area: 4 659 Square feet or 433 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 37 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 112 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,60
- Overall: 0,56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: Korpen on April 01, 2007, 10:56:37 AM
While the torpedo armament might be considered light, i consider one of the main purposes of my TBJ;s is to defend my well-armed but slow capital ships from enemy TBs.
In that case build the ship for the job. What you need is this:
Dutch Destroyer Killer 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
2 616 t light; 2 724 t standard; 3 300 t normal; 3 761 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
389,80 ft / 377,30 ft x 39,37 ft x 16,40 ft (normal load)
118,81 m / 115,00 m x 12,00 m x 5,00 m
Armament:
8 - 4,70" / 119 mm guns (4x2 guns), 51,91lbs / 23,55kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 0,43" / 10,9 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 416 lbs / 189 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
4 - 19,7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1,57" / 40 mm 344,49 ft / 105,00 m 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 140% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,79" / 20 mm - 0,39" / 10 mm
- Armour deck: 0,39" / 10 mm, Conning tower: 0,98" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22 015 shp / 16 423 Kw = 26,00 kts
Range 6 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1 037 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
217 - 283
Cost:
£0,289 million / $1,157 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 52 tons, 1,6%
Armour: 230 tons, 7,0%
- Belts: 141 tons, 4,3%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 15 tons, 0,4%
- Armour Deck: 70 tons, 2,1%
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0,1%
Machinery: 1 101 tons, 33,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 184 tons, 35,9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 684 tons, 20,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2 716 lbs / 1 232 Kg = 52,3 x 4,7 " / 119 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,31
Metacentric height 2,0 ft / 0,6 m
Roll period: 11,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,51
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0,474
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,58 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,42 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21,65 ft / 6,60 m
- Forecastle (25%): 20,67 ft / 6,30 m (13,78 ft / 4,20 m aft of break)
- Mid (50%): 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Stern: 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Average freeboard: 15,60 ft / 4,76 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 122,3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97,9%
Waterplane Area: 9 670 Square feet or 898 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 314 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,91
- Longitudinal: 2,48
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Quote from: maddox on April 01, 2007, 05:17:29 AM
I aimed for the 800 tons limit on destroyers according the rules. ;)
With the Dutch having the best gun lay out for destroyers I see the room for another 100mm gun.
Removed 2 of 57mm anti TB guns and elevated the 2 8mm machine to clear deckspace.
Also, took 200 shells for the main guns compared to the 180 in the previous version.
Added 2 torpedo tubes and removed all the reloads and equipment I did see as possible.
That ship is if possible even more crowded then mine.
As for the number of shells, in perfect weather and conditions 200 shells are enough for almost 15 minutes of constant firing, and i simply do not expect my TBs to survive that long in a environment that requires that kind of ammunition expenditure. ;D
Just 1 question, who do you see as your North sea enemy, and what is the mainstay of his/her/their fleet(s).
No public answer needed.
Quote from: Borys on April 01, 2007, 11:07:03 AM
In that case build the ship for the job. What you need is this:
Dutch Destroyer Killer 1906 (Engine 1909)
When i can build ships with 1909 turbines, i will consider it! ;)
But as for the moment my engines weights about 600 tons more for that power output :(
Quote from: maddox on April 01, 2007, 11:17:43 AM
Just 1 question, who do you see as your North sea enemy, and what is the mainstay of his/her/their fleet(s).
No public answer needed.
That is not as much about who the enemy is, as it is about the fact that the c-class TBs that are to replace are stationed in my European water, and that means the north sea.
Extripator, Dutch Destroyer Slaughterer
Laid down 1906 (Engine 1905)
Quote
Displacement:
3 342 t light; 3 470 t standard; 4 327 t normal; 5 013 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
412,70 ft / 400,00 ft x 42,00 ft x 15,00 ft (normal load)
125,79 m / 121,92 m x 12,80 m x 4,57 m
Armament:
8 - 4,70" / 119 mm guns in single mounts, 51,91lbs / 23,55kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 - 0,43" / 10,9 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 416 lbs / 189 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2,00" / 51 mm 350,00 ft / 106,68 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 135% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,00" / 25 mm - 1,00" / 25 mm
- Conning tower: 1,00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19 457 shp / 14 515 Kw = 24,00 kts
Range 6 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1 543 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
266 - 346
Cost:
£0,388 million / $1,550 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 52 tons, 1,2%
Armour: 252 tons, 5,8%
- Belts: 224 tons, 5,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 22 tons, 0,5%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0,1%
Machinery: 1 621 tons, 37,5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 366 tons, 31,6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 985 tons, 22,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1,2%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3 129 lbs / 1 419 Kg = 60,3 x 4,7 " / 119 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,40
Metacentric height 2,4 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 11,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 89 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,77
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0,601
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
- Forecastle (40%): 21,00 ft / 6,40 m (14,00 ft / 4,27 m aft of break)
- Mid (50%): 14,00 ft / 4,27 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 14,00 ft / 4,27 m
- Stern: 14,00 ft / 4,27 m
- Average freeboard: 16,96 ft / 5,17 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 132,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108,9%
Waterplane Area: 12 299 Square feet or 1 143 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 62 lbs/sq ft or 305 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 2,00
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Quote from: Borys on April 01, 2007, 11:31:55 AM
Extripator, Dutch Destroyer Slaughterer
Laid down 1906 (Engine 1905)
If building a ship like that i think i would go for sometinh slightly larger.
Celt, Netherlands Sloop laid down 1906 (Engine 1905)
Displacement:
3 910 t light; 4 088 t standard; 5 004 t normal; 5 737 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
435,69 ft / 426,51 ft x 39,37 ft x 21,33 ft (normal load)
132,80 m / 130,00 m x 12,00 m x 6,50 m
Armament:
4 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 714 lbs / 324 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 170
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1,97" / 50 mm 367,45 ft / 112,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 133 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,97" / 50 mm - 0,98" / 25 mm
2nd: 1,97" / 50 mm - 0,98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1,97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 0,98" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19 983 shp / 14 907 Kw = 24,06 kts
Range 6 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1 649 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
296 - 386
Cost:
£0,443 million / $1,771 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 89 tons, 1,8 %
Armour: 763 tons, 15,2 %
- Belts: 283 tons, 5,7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 70 tons, 1,4 %
- Armour Deck: 403 tons, 8,1 %
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0,1 %
Machinery: 1 649 tons, 32,9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 389 tons, 27,8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 094 tons, 21,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0,4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3 279 lbs / 1 487 Kg = 62,2 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,31
Metacentric height 2,0 ft / 0,6 m
Roll period: 11,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,489
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Mid (30 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Stern: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 12,43 ft / 3,79 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 121,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79,2 %
Waterplane Area: 11 078 Square feet or 1 029 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 69 lbs/sq ft or 335 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,37
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Deacent armour, eight gun broadside, and still quite slow :/
Ahoj!
IMO the shields are too thick - you are firing at fast moving targets, remember?
Apart from that - OK.
But maybe adjust the trim to improve shooting, the raison de ettre of this boat.
Borys
If you are going for a cruiser type, Rohan could probably build you this in a year next year in just over one year (so you'd get it in 1908).
Halifirien
Rohan Protected Cruiser laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
3,696 t light; 3,845 t standard; 4,450 t normal; 4,916 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
450.00 ft / 450.00 ft x 45.00 ft x 15.00 ft (normal load)
137.16 m / 137.16 m x 13.72 m x 4.57 m
Armament:
2 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1907 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1907 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1907 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 457 lbs / 207 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 16.0" / 406.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 34,500 shp / 25,737 Kw = 28.17 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,088 tons)
Complement:
272 - 354
Cost:
£0.410 million / $1.638 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 57 tons, 1.3 %
Armour: 436 tons, 9.8 %
- Belts: 400 tons, 9.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 25 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,659 tons, 37.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,495 tons, 33.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 754 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,552 lbs / 1,611 Kg = 78.0 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m before break)
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 15.43 ft / 4.70 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 132.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.7 %
Waterplane Area: 13,152 Square feet or 1,222 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 332 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Not slow, 6 gun broadside, better armor.
Huge change from a 750 tons destroyer to a 4K tons protected cruiser, or even a small armored cruiser.
Ahoj!
'Tis true, that a huge leap.
But what would you chose - 6 unarmoured destroyers with 3x120 each dancing on the waves, or a single much more stable and protected against tropedoboat/destroyer gunfire vessel with 6 120mm guns (firing in one direction).
BTW - the italain cacciatori (destroyer destroyers) proved to be not very successful ...
Borys
Again, it depends greatly on the role the vessel is to have. If you want mostly expendible (or just cheap) vessels to take out torpedo boats, that is what destroyers are for. If you want to take out destroyers, that's what light cruisers are for.
Quote from: Ithekro on April 01, 2007, 01:02:09 PM
If you are going for a cruiser type, Rohan could probably build you this in a year next year in just over one year (so you'd get it in 1908).
Fast indeed, but by late 1908 it seems likley that i will be able to build it my self, but thanks for the offer. ;)
And for the moment i want more keels in the water.
And like i said, a major reason for new TBJs is to repalce my old small TBs.
Also expendibility is very nice in the north sea, as in any war with other countires there, i would not be supprised if you could walk across much of the sea by stepping from mine to mine..
And a crusier is no better then a TBJ at surviving hitting a mine.
If your looking for a destroyer destroyer look to the Swiss, killing TBs since 1901!
And having a lot of trouble with them.
50 TBs killed for 9 destroyers lost isnt too shabby.
Some more studies from the netherlands, this time a torpedobootjager (destroyer).
The ship is intended mainly for fleet operations, and to support the armoured frigates.
For this reason the ship has unmatched range, sea keeping and almost unique for a destroyer, adequate accommodations for the crew.
The 24 ton misc weight includes the four torpedoes, a small radio and at least ten mines or minesweeping equipment.
QuoteG-class, Netherlands Torpedobootjager laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
750 t light; 777 t standard; 907 t normal; 1 011 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
282,15 ft / 282,15 ft x 25,26 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
86,00 m / 86,00 m x 7,70 m x 3,00 m
Armament:
3 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37,48lbs / 17,00kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1908 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 112 lbs / 51 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16 659 shp / 12 427 Kw = 28,80 kts
Range 4 030nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 234 tons
Complement:
82 - 107
Cost:
£0,101 million / $0,406 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 11 tons, 1,3 %
Machinery: 469 tons, 51,7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 246 tons, 27,1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 157 tons, 17,3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 2,6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
260 lbs / 118 Kg = 8,5 x 3,9 " / 100 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,42
Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 9,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,30
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,452
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (48 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Stern: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Average freeboard: 12,40 ft / 3,78 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90,0 %
Waterplane Area: 4 556 Square feet or 423 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 118 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 2,27
- Overall: 0,58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I like the lack of torpedo reloads. Seems more period-appropriate.
I'd suggest retaining mixed-bunkerage, though. Getting oil in places like Surinam is not necessarily going to be easy.
A version with a slightly heavier gun armament, to give the ship a bit more bite.
QuoteG-class, Netherlands Torpedobootjager laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
750 t light; 782 t standard; 912 t normal; 1 016 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
282,15 ft / 282,15 ft x 25,26 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
86,00 m / 86,00 m x 7,70 m x 3,00 m
Armament:
3 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1908 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 159 lbs / 72 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,20" / 5 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16 450 shp / 12 272 Kw = 28,68 kts
Range 4 030nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 234 tons
Complement:
82 - 107
Cost:
£0,106 million / $0,426 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 20 tons, 2,2 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0,2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0,2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 454 tons, 49,8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 251 tons, 27,5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 162 tons, 17,7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 2,6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
258 lbs / 117 Kg = 4,9 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,41
Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 9,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,31
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,455
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (48 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Stern: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Average freeboard: 12,40 ft / 3,78 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180,1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90,2 %
Waterplane Area: 4 565 Square feet or 424 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 120 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 2,30
- Overall: 0,58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on July 17, 2007, 01:15:23 PM
I like the lack of torpedo reloads. Seems more period-appropriate.
I'd suggest retaining mixed-bunkerage, though. Getting oil in places like Surinam is not necessarily going to be easy.
Should not be too hard either, and fleet tankers are high on the priority list.
But in the present situation, operations in the NOI is considered most likely, and there oil is easier to get then good coal.
As for the lack of torpedo reloads, in Dutch doctrine torpedoes are mainly a coup-de-crace weapon, to be fired at short range against targets crippled by gunfire (or against enemy ships trying to close with capital ships for a torpedo attack).
And reloading of torpedo tubes are not really practical to do at sea anyway, it is quite a complex process, especially on a small lively ship like a torpedo boat. As it have no tactical value, it is preferred to leave the carrying of torpedo reloads to special supply ships.
QuoteFor this reason the ship has unmatched range, sea keeping and almost unique for a destroyer, adequate accommodations for the crew.
Actually the slightly smaller Van Hakes have better range (5,000@12) and similar seakeeping
On torpedo reloads, only the special Johann Wys class carry reloads.
The van Hakes are slow (27kts) for a destroyer. Sacrificing speed for range. Can be caught by any new cruiser in a bit heavier weather.
The Orange ones have firepower, speed and extra TTs - in exchange for shorter range (3000@12). Also, their L:B ratio is limited to 10:1.
The UKA ones have weak (3") guns, but nice range and speed.
A new design proposal for a class of fleet destroyers.
The armament is excellent, in fact it is superior to some older light cruisers, giving the ships a first rate firepower. The ships is wide, high and fairly short for a destroyers, this to aid its sea keeping in hard weather, allowing the ships to be able to operate even in the worst weather (maybe not very well but tat will at least survive). Draft has has been maximised to minimize stamping. With their range and for a destroyer, very good haubitillity, they would make excellent escorts for the fleets main artillery vessels.
QuoteDisplacement:
750 t light; 791 t standard; 975 t normal; 1 122 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 29,53 ft x 11,48 ft (normal load)
70,00 m / 70,00 m x 9,00 m x 3,50 m
Armament:
5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 265 lbs / 120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
2 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13 391 shp / 9 990 Kw = 26,00 kts
Range 5 500nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 330 tons
Complement:
86 - 113
Cost:
£0,114 million / $0,456 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 3,4 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0,5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0,5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 428 tons, 43,9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 261 tons, 26,8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 225 tons, 23,1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 22 tons, 2,3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
327 lbs / 148 Kg = 6,2 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,50
Metacentric height 1,6 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 9,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,35
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,438
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Mid (44 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Stern: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,57 ft / 4,14 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170,2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104,3 %
Waterplane Area: 4 285 Square feet or 398 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 141 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 3,84
- Overall: 0,61
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Design altered a bit in light of recent experience. The ship carries a 10 ton radio and 20 tons of mines or minesweeping equipment.
Karanga, Netherlands Torpedoboot laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
750 t light; 792 t standard; 971 t normal; 1 114 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 29,53 ft x 10,83 ft (normal load)
70,00 m / 70,00 m x 9,00 m x 3,30 m
Armament:
5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 0,59" / 15,0 mm guns (4 mounts), 0,10lbs / 0,05kg shells, 1908 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 265 lbs / 120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11 452 shp / 8 543 Kw = 25,00 kts
Range 3 000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 323 tons
Complement:
86 - 113
Cost:
£0,110 million / $0,441 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 3,4 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0,5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0,5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 401 tons, 41,3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 281 tons, 28,9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 221 tons, 22,7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 3,1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
379 lbs / 172 Kg = 7,2 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,39
Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 10,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,47
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,463
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Mid (46 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
- Stern: 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
- Average freeboard: 14,63 ft / 4,46 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 162,9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136,6 %
Waterplane Area: 4 372 Square feet or 406 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 72 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 141 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 4,83
- Overall: 0,63
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
For torpedo boat it doesn't mount any.
Michael
Quote from: miketr on August 15, 2007, 01:11:30 PM
For torpedo boat it doesn't mount any.
Michael
That is true, recent experience show that torpedoboat captains cannot be trusted to use them wisely, and they make the forget their duty.
Respectfully the problem I think lies with peoples perception as to what these ships can and should do in this time period.
There basicly popcorn that is all but incapable of taking any real damage. Look at your Destroyer...
QuoteSurvivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
379 lbs / 172 Kg = 7,2 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
7 hits or so from a 5" gun will sink it, 3 to 4 hits from a 6" gun and anything in the 8" range or above will just kill it out of hand. So for anything other than TB/DD its a target without the ability to do real damage back in return. Sure you can use it to screen your larger units but once the other side ID's them on the battle field they will ignore them other than to thin them out for a torpedo attack of there own; especially if you don't field a light fast torpedo armed ship to go along with them. Combined with there low speed they are a very limited ship that take a number of tactical opitions away from your fleet.
In WW1 nearly 200 of them were lost to various causes.
If they get there torpedo's off they are deadly all out of proportion from there size. The lesson my navy will have taken from the fighting is as follows.
1) All ships need more QF weapons.
2) TB/DD's need more speed to close the range quicker
3) TB/DD's need more torpedo's and of a larger size to do more damage once they launch.
If you want a battle line escort that is the clear role of a cruiser (of some size); at least till we get DD's in the 1,000 to 1,500 ton range.
Michael
Quote from: miketr on August 15, 2007, 02:29:03 PM
Respectfully the problem I think lies with peoples perception as to what these ships can and should do in this time period.
There basicly popcorn that is all but incapable of taking any real damage. Look at your Destroyer...
QuoteSurvivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
379 lbs / 172 Kg = 7,2 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
7 hits or so from a 5" gun will sink it, 3 to 4 hits from a 6" gun and anything in the 8" range or above will just kill it out of hand. So for anything other than TB/DD its a target without the ability to do real damage back in return. Sure you can use it to screen your larger units but once the other side ID's them on the battle field they will ignore them other than to thin them out for a torpedo attack of there own; especially if you don't field a light fast torpedo armed ship to go along with them. Combined with there low speed they are a very limited ship that take a number of tactical opitions away from your fleet.
Disagree as they are ships designed for one purpose, and that is to protect the capital ships from enemy torpedo boots, as is the primary function of all my TBs (and the reason why the captain that torpedoed the cruiser got a medal and a demotion). They are not intended to be a threat in themselves to an enemy, they are there to be expended so that the large ships is not.
It is the artillery vessels that are relies on to do damage to the enemy.
Sure it does reduce the number of tactical options, but so far those options have only been a liability, and not something that has been beneficial.
Quote
If you want a battle line escort that is the clear role of a cruiser (of some size); at least till we get DD's in the 1,000 to 1,500 ton range.
Well, I consider cruisers to be the worst of two worlds, they are to big to be expendable, but to small to be capable of fighting anything but the most puny of enemies. While a single cruiser is more durable then a single TB, I can get five TBs for the same cost, and both types of ship is about equally vulnerable to underwater damage.
But maily it is that I simply do not like them. :)
Basiclly useless. If my tactics are properly followed those ships would be dead meat. They cant catch destroyers nor can they sink battleships. Any cruiser would make mincemeat out of them. I too am considering battleline escorts, but these are just too light.
Rohan seems to have always considered cruisers the proper escort and left the torpedo boats and destroyers as attack craft. But then Rohan was late into the torpedo age and until recently has had not much use to the "fish that miss". This is always why the Mark doesn't have all that many torpedo boats. The destroyers have been fitted as torpedo boat destroyers but also to engage warships with torpedoes if possible (which has not worked out for Rohan...mainly due to numbers of ships used being between one and five mostly). Rohan prides itself on being able to take out enemy torpedo boats with quick fire weapons before they can can be effective. While in practice it has limited the number of TBs that can attack Rohan lines, it has never killed them all before they can launch torpedoes. Only the low chance of a torpedo hitting a target when using only a few torpedoes has saved the Mark's ships to date.
This shows a little in the Rohirrim designs being gun heavy, even with many 3 inch and 6 inch then losts of 4.5 inch and now 6" again. The 6" may not be as effective as intended, but it can help make short work of larger destroyers and cruisers while the main guns engage capital ships and cruisers.
(Combat system wise, a TB takes one or two hits and it is destroyed. Most destroyers can take three, but cannot conduct torpedo attacks after two hits. Larger destroyers will increase to 4, 5, and 6 hits once they start appearing in ten or so years)
Quote from: Desertfox on August 15, 2007, 08:30:28 PM
Basiclly useless. If my tactics are properly followed those ships would be dead meat. They cant catch destroyers nor can they sink battleships. Any cruiser would make mincemeat out of them. I too am considering battleline escorts, but these are just too light.
But they outgun any destroyers in the world, and while a cruiser can shoot them to pieces, the opposite is also true, four of these ships will make mince met out of even fairly well-protected cruisers, 20 12cm guns is quite allot of firepower.
As for not being able to catch DDs, good, that is not their job.
Ahoj!
I disagree with the cruiser killing capability. Lively little boats simply can't put enough metal, and accurate metal, in the air as to destroy cruisers with 2+ inch belts. With 25 knots max speed, this means 22? 23? in moderate seas.
This class is IMO cruiser-feed.
Borys
Well with 4" plus guns they will at least be able to do some damage to a cruiser. The 3 inch guns won't do anything in most systems (of course most systems don't take into account the German 88mm guns, though some place them at the very bottom of the "I can hurt somebody" scale).
Ahoj!
The 4,7" guns will have half the ROF of 4 inch guns, thus cutting by half the chance of hits. And the penetration is nothing to get excited about ...
Borys
Quote from: Borys on August 15, 2007, 11:35:17 PM
Ahoj!
I disagree with the cruiser killing capability. Lively little boats simply can't put enough metal, and accurate metal, in the air as to destroy cruisers with 2+ inch belts. With 25 knots max speed, this means 22? 23? in moderate seas.
This class is IMO cruiser-feed.
Borys
They can get a sustained ROF of around 5-6 rounds, but with a slightly higher burst speed (about 10rpm). That is a significant amount of fire. And while they will be lively ships, the difference to a 2000 ton light cruiser is not that huge. At long range, then yes a cruiser might have an advantage, but as long as they stay at long range these ships are doing their job admirably.
They are to stop enemy torpedo attack on the artillery ships, and they got more then enough firepower to hurt anything smaller then a capital ship, at ranges of less then 3km their relative instability should not be that significant.
That is the reason why 12cm guns are selected, far superior stopping power. Also a lesson from the Moluccas battle where the TB allowed enemy torpedo crafts to pass them and get between the capital ships and their screen.
And they are as fast in seaway as any other destroyer, and designed to be able to cope with even the worst sea (the reason why they are short, wide and deep).
Not much of a torpedo boat though. A torpedo boat destroyer maybe (rather than a torpedo-gunboat). Or a fast gunboat? (or just a destroyer)
While this ship has the firepower of some of protected cruisers (broadsides verse this centerline) they really don't have the size to stand up to many cruisers for long. Numbers may tell a different story if it is five on one against a 4, 5, or 6 inch armed cruiser, but against any of the armored cruisers, this will be ineffective. (though it is possible the larger batteries won't be able to hit the destroyers very easily) Dueling battleships or battlecruisers with these will not be possible as the 4.7" guns will not do a whole lot and the quick fires on most battleships are designed to put little ships like this below the waves as quickly as possible. Engaging other ships there size, sure they will have an advantage.
Rohirrim destroyers take that adantage, but also have torpedes if they encounter larger vessels that their guns will not effect. I'd say they are cheap, but Rohan just doesn't think highly of the torpedo and made these light vessels to see what all the fuss was about in Europe. With only 21 torpedo boats, the Mark decided it would rather kill the torpedo boats before they come close to the fleet, thus making destroyers instead, but even those were in small numbers until recently. Minrimmon is the only Rohirrim built cruiser that was built with torpedoes and that was to emmulate the Confederate purchased cruisers. Rohan has decided so far not to follow up on that design and instead moved on to belted cruisers for superior firepower over the seemingly inaccurate torpedo.
So while I can understand the idea of the light ships as escorts rather than cheap attack craft, it doesn't seem to fit the combat experiance of this (and the Sino-Swiss War) quite right. A lot of ships have been put away by torpedoes in this war and the previous Asian war. I guess it comes down to if the nation believes the answer is more torpedoes to run with this advantage, or mount more guns to negate the torpedoe craft before they can launch torpedoes. Rohan is for blowing the little things up, but keeps the torpedoes in case of an opportunity to strike.
Quote from: Korpen on August 15, 2007, 11:06:08 PM
Quote from: Desertfox on August 15, 2007, 08:30:28 PM
Basiclly useless. If my tactics are properly followed those ships would be dead meat. They cant catch destroyers nor can they sink battleships. Any cruiser would make mincemeat out of them. I too am considering battleline escorts, but these are just too light.
But they outgun any destroyers in the world, and while a cruiser can shoot them to pieces, the opposite is also true, four of these ships will make mince met out of even fairly well-protected cruisers, 20 12cm guns is quite allot of firepower.
As for not being able to catch DDs, good, that is not their job.
I don't see why you expect these ships to do anything to a cruiser of the same generation. Older PC's sure but new construction? I don't see it. There too slow to close the range and while there firepower will be impressive to an unarmored target is useless to anything with any type of protection. Odds are a cruiser will have something around a 6" gun and be faster than they are. Leaving them tied to your battleline needing it to protect them. All they can do is chew up unarmed sections which will cause pain I grant you but it won't kill anything with as Borys pointed more than a 2" belt.
Michael
Quote from: miketr on August 16, 2007, 01:27:30 AM
I don't see why you expect these ships to do anything to a cruiser of the same generation. Older PC's sure but new construction? I don't see it. There too slow to close the range and while there firepower will be impressive to an unarmored target is useless to anything with any type of protection. Odds are a cruiser will have something around a 6" gun and be faster than they are. Leaving them tied to your battleline needing it to protect them. All they can do is chew up unarmed sections which will cause pain I grant you but it won't kill anything with as Borys pointed more than a 2" belt.
Michael
I do not expect these ships to du much against a cruiser, on their own that is.
But I do expect them to be able to stop a cruiser that is trying to force its way past them to attack the larger ships they protect with torpedoes. Yes, this is tying them to the battleline, and that is the intention.
Quote from: Ithekro on August 16, 2007, 01:20:34 AM
A lot of ships have been put away by torpedoes in this war and the previous Asian war. I guess it comes down to if the nation believes the answer is more torpedoes to run with this advantage, or mount more guns to negate the torpedoe craft before they can launch torpedoes
There has been more manoeuvring warships sunk by surface torpedoes in this war then the total loss to them during the entire ww1. And this with torpedoes carrying about 1/2 (About 1/3 of a ww2 torpedo), of the warhead of a ww1 torpedo, and lacking a gyroscope, giving them worse accuracy (at least on paper) then torpedoes of the world wars...
This last point from Korpen is very true: with the amount of tonnage lost to surface torps in the past few months, the world's navies ought to be taking notice and taking steps to counteract them.
Personally, I look forward to seeing how this operational model works out.
Quote from: Korpen on August 16, 2007, 03:04:15 AM
There has been more manoeuvring warships sunk by surface torpedoes in this war then the total loss to them during the entire ww1. And this with torpedoes carrying about 1/2 (About 1/3 of a ww2 torpedo), of the warhead of a ww1 torpedo, and lacking a gyroscope, giving them worse accuracy (at least on paper) then torpedoes of the world wars...
That I think has to do with the fact that in this war several times there have been fights where major torpedo attacks occured. Considering that Jutland was basicly it in WW1 for a major surface torpedo attack s (1 each side) and they neither sides torpedo units got as close as we have scene especially that night attack. Also the ships in question are 1/2 or 1/3 the size of WW1 warships.
Michael
Ahoj!
I took notice of the torpedo menace. My new 6 inchers are 45 calibres long, with 100 pound shells. For high training speed and ROF.
This is instead of a 50 or 55 calibre long weapon, 110/120 lb shell, with long range and pentrating power. I will leave that to 7,5 inch guns. The 6 incher is to be a GTB muncher.
Borys
Quote from: miketr on August 16, 2007, 07:54:54 AM
That I think has to do with the fact that in this war several times there have been fights where major torpedo attacks occured. Considering that Jutland was basicly it in WW1 for a major surface torpedo attack s (1 each side) and they neither sides torpedo units got as close as we have scene especially that night attack. Also the ships in question are 1/2 or 1/3 the size of WW1 warships.
Michael
That matters a bit, but just looking on the number of hits, we are about equal with ww1.And while Skagerrak was the only major fleet action, there were loads of surface fighting, not only in the famous north sea battles between England and Germany. Some of the most intense areas of operations were the black sea and the Baltic.
First, I am of the opinion that it is too easy to hit, but without knowing exactly with, if any modifications that is made to SoW, it is hard to tell.
But getting almost 50% hit rates at long range shoot against ships manoeuvring to evade, well, that would be good wire guided torpedoes. Unless my match if off in SoW, those shots had a hit % of around 10% against the AFs, and 15% against the battleships. It would seem that the Swiss got VERY luck, again.
Another thing that inflates casualties in most games is the lack of self preservation, pressing every ship to fight to the bitter end rather then try and break off when they are in a very exposed position.
A more conservative design, that retain the torpedoes. Still have five 12cm guns however.
The 30 ton of misc weight is enough to fist a 10-ton radio, 4 torpedoes, two pair of paravanes and up to 14 mines.
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2283/gclassnf2.png)
Type-G, Netherlands Jager laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
750 t light; 791 t standard; 920 t normal; 1 023 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
291,34 ft / 269,03 ft x 28,38 ft x 10,17 ft (normal load)
88,80 m / 82,00 m x 8,65 m x 3,10 m
Armament:
5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0,59" / 15,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,10lbs / 0,05kg shells, 1908 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 265 lbs / 120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,47" / 12 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15 369 shp / 11 466 Kw = 28,00 kts
Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 233 tons
Complement:
83 - 108
Cost:
£0,113 million / $0,453 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 3,6 %
Armour: 6 tons, 0,7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 0,7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 424 tons, 46,1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 257 tons, 28,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 170 tons, 18,5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 3,3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
256 lbs / 116 Kg = 4,9 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,37
Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 10,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,14
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,415
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,40 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17,72 ft / 5,40 m
- Mid (29 %): 17,72 ft / 5,40 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Stern: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 12,20 ft / 3,72 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179,6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91,5 %
Waterplane Area: 4 743 Square feet or 441 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 134 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 2,15
- Overall: 0,57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
EDIT: Fixed the trim so the became a steady platform.
An extremely effective 'jack-of-all-trades' design, it seems.
Good range for a destroyer, heavy armament. I'd go with a 'distributed' arrangement as it seems to better fit the illustration, though. The return of 4 torpedoes gives it weapons that can threaten a BB/AC-sized ship, and the 5 120mm singles will at least make life miserable for a small cruiser. Add in the fact that she's just as fast and twice as cheap, and you get to send 2 ships out instead of one... which makes that small cruiser's life go from 'interesting' to 'miserable with possibility of sucking.'
Are you sure she is period appropriate? A little more speed and some bigger torpedoes and she would make a nice WWII! destroyer.
Where are you going to put the mines and paravanes?
Quote from: Desertfox on August 17, 2007, 01:02:21 PM
Are you sure she is period appropriate? A little more speed and some bigger torpedoes and she would make a nice WWII! destroyer.
Where are you going to put the mines and paravanes?
The mines goes as deck cargo, but on the scale I use, small details such as mine rails only look weird.
The rail goes along the sides of the ship, with the mines made fast below the D-gun platform.
The paravanes are strapped to the superstructure, or to the deck in front of the boats.
The ship is basically a smaller, shorter, slower V-class destroyer, and she fits the need.
Hm, removing the capacity to carry mines and/or other funny equipment allowed the speed to be increased by one knot.
Also the sea keeping, while about equal in all, is worse at top speed.
Type-G, Netherlands Jager laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
750 t light; 789 t standard; 918 t normal; 1 021 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
301,18 ft / 278,87 ft x 27,89 ft x 9,68 ft (normal load)
91,80 m / 85,00 m x 8,50 m x 2,95 m
Armament:
5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0,59" / 15,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,10lbs / 0,05kg shells, 1908 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 265 lbs / 120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17 439 shp / 13 009 Kw = 29,00 kts
Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 232 tons
Complement:
83 - 108
Cost:
£0,116 million / $0,464 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 3,6 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0,6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0,6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 443 tons, 48,3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 252 tons, 27,5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 168 tons, 18,3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 1,7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
233 lbs / 105 Kg = 4,4 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,37
Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 10,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,427
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Mid (30 %): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m (9,19 ft / 2,80 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9,19 ft / 2,80 m
- Stern: 9,19 ft / 2,80 m
- Average freeboard: 11,70 ft / 3,57 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185,0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90,3 %
Waterplane Area: 4 872 Square feet or 453 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 131 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,74
- Overall: 0,56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Which version do you prefer?
The extra speed is nice, but the reduced payload limits what kind of operations the ship can conduct, as well as reducing the ability to incorporate new equipment.
Interesting enough, the weight difference between 5x10cm and 5x12cm guns are almost non-existent, the only change a switch to 1dm guns be an increase in the number of shells.
Second one definately. ;)
Hmm if the difference between guns is minimal, I might just have the Kidd class DDs end up with 5" guns...
Can I note that in terms of style this ship type should have more smaller funnels and more of a straight bow?
Even with SS3 the weight difference between 4" and 5" is minimal. The 5th gun, however, costs more.
However, on any but calm seas the ROF will be much different. For Netherlands, it is IMO acceptable. For countries like NS, DKB and Orange, bad weather capability should more important, therefore the mentioned countries should stay with fixed 4" ammo, not separate 5" one.
France is gently strolling away, with the everywere present 140mm quick fire guns....
Ahoj!
The 10 rpm burst ROF of the 4,7 guns is attainable in calm seas. NOI and Great Rift - possible. Not in the North Sea.
In a way it funny that the Habsburgs are designing their ships with the most awful weather in mind :)
And when talking about 4,7/5 inch guns - the USN found the 5"/51 guns to be too heavy and cumbersome on their c.1000 ton flush deckers. IMO a viable 5 inch gun for such small boats - without penalty of slow train, etc. - should be 35-40 calibre lenght.
As to the French 5,5" guns - maybe someday someone will have a stroke of genious and introduce separate ammo for these guns ....
Borys
Quote from: Borys on August 19, 2007, 12:22:03 AM
Ahoj!
The 10 rpm burst ROF of the 4,7 guns is attainable in calm seas. NOI and Great Rift - possible. Not in the North Sea.
In a way it funny that the Habsburgs are designing their ships with the most awful weather in mind :)
And when talking about 4,7/5 inch guns - the USN found the 5"/51 guns to be too heavy and cumbersome on their c.1000 ton flush deckers. IMO a viable 5 inch gun for such small boats - without penalty of slow train, etc. - should be 35-40 calibre lenght.
As to the French 5,5" guns - maybe someday someone will have a stroke of genious and introduce separate ammo for these guns ....
Borys
Dutch ships are designed with the worst possible weather in mind, something already stated, but the Netherlands do not expect the smallest combat crafts to be able to perform much action in storms and high seas, so priority is put in the ability to survive the worst weather.
I think it is important not to stare bliondly at the seaboat rating, as it is a relative, not absolute messurment.
Considering that the Us 5"/51 was a extremely powerful gun, it does not surprise me that it could give problems to some ships.
I think it is important not to stare blindly at the seaboat rating, as it is a relative, not absolute measurement. The seaboat rating is how well the ships perform in sea at top speed relative other ships of the same size.
Finalized version, using a slightly less powerfull 12cm gun.
Still enogh misc weight for a radio, four torpedoes and two paravanes.
(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6577/gclassfinas6.png)
G-Class, Netherlands Jager laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
750 t light; 786 t standard; 915 t normal; 1 018 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
290,72 ft / 280,51 ft x 28,05 ft x 9,78 ft (normal load)
88,61 m / 85,50 m x 8,55 m x 2,98 m
Armament:
5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 46,30lbs / 21,00kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0,59" / 15,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,10lbs / 0,05kg shells, 1908 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 232 lbs / 105 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17 226 shp / 12 851 Kw = 29,00 kts
Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 232 tons
Complement:
83 - 108
Cost:
£0,116 million / $0,462 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 3,6 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0,6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0,6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 440 tons, 48,1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 254 tons, 27,7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 165 tons, 18,1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 18 tons, 2,0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
239 lbs / 108 Kg = 4,5 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,39
Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 10,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,416
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Mid (32 %): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m (9,19 ft / 2,80 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9,19 ft / 2,80 m
- Stern: 9,19 ft / 2,80 m
- Average freeboard: 11,82 ft / 3,60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 184,3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92,5 %
Waterplane Area: 4 893 Square feet or 455 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 131 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,78
- Overall: 0,56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Ahoj!
Actually, going by the picture, four guns are "elevated". Forecastel, forecastle elevated, amidships elevated, aft elevated. But it probably makes no difference. The gain in speed is beneficial.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on August 20, 2007, 05:04:54 AM
Ahoj!
Actually, going by the picture, four guns are "elevated". Forecastel, forecastle elevated, amidships elevated, aft elevated. But it probably makes no difference. The gain in speed is beneficial.
Borys
There are no guns mounted on what springsharp considers the forecastle, it just that the hull midbreak is quite far forward, the forward guns are mounted on the 18% of the hull that is the mid forward of midbreak.
Quote from: Borys on August 19, 2007, 12:22:03 AM
Ahoj!
The 10 rpm burst ROF of the 4,7 guns is attainable in calm seas. NOI and Great Rift - possible. Not in the North Sea.
In a way it funny that the Habsburgs are designing their ships with the most awful weather in mind :)
And when talking about 4,7/5 inch guns - the USN found the 5"/51 guns to be too heavy and cumbersome on their c.1000 ton flush deckers. IMO a viable 5 inch gun for such small boats - without penalty of slow train, etc. - should be 35-40 calibre lenght.
As to the French 5,5" guns - maybe someday someone will have a stroke of genious and introduce separate ammo for these guns ....
Borys
Actually, as the L/45 (21kg shell) gun use fixed ammunition, 10rpm is never really out of the question, if the historic guns with fixed ammunition if anything to go by (8-12 RPM seems like the average).
And while about 34kg (21 complete round) is heavy to load, it is not really an inhuman load to handle quickly and repeatedly. As surface fire is at much lower elevation some of the problems of rapid fatigue is much reduced compared to the need of AA fire were it has to be rammed upwards.
Of course if conditions are really bad the ROF could drop far lower then that, but in those cases the gun crew on lighter guns will have just as much problems. :)
The real drop off in ROF will happen when the ready ammunition is used up, but that is a problem shared with all ships with deck guns.
Did some more research on the problems with 127mm guns on US destroyers. Most of those problems seem to be that the ships were rearmed with the guns later in their life. Their original armaments were 10cm guns, and getting trouble when mounting guns significantly more powerful then the ships were designed for is no surprise.
Well, inspired by Carthaginians drawing of the CSA ship, I have given a shot on making a larger scale drawing of the G-Class.
Scale is 1pixel=1dm
The drawing needs some more work, such as adding details to the deck.
(http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/9958/gclassbc2.th.png) (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gclassbc2.png)
The skellies are cute.
Quote from: Borys on September 27, 2007, 03:26:30 PM
The skellies are cute.
My, thank you.
They are included for size comparison, they are about as large as an avarage dutch seaman.
Excellent drawing... and made me realize that my gun mounts need some work. :)
Keep it up!
Well looking to convert some old TBs for use in other roles, mainly mine laying and sweeping.
The first ideas include ripping out the old engines, and mount a more modern engine packet, but only in half the old space. The freed space being used for more fuel. An extra 5cm gun is getting mounted on the forecastle, and a radio is getting fitted. The remaining of the extra misc weight is to be used to mount mine warfare equipment, as well some extra crew space.
The cost would be about 0,15bp and €0,24 per boat.
Any thoughts?
Orginal ship: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=690.msg4399#msg4399
C-Class (M), Netherlands Enter ship type laid down 1895 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
344 t light; 355 t standard; 471 t normal; 564 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
180,45 ft / 180,45 ft x 20,01 ft x 10,01 ft (normal load)
55,00 m / 55,00 m x 6,10 m x 3,05 m
Armament:
3 - 1,97" / 50,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,81lbs / 1,73kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1895 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 11 lbs / 5 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Conning tower: 0,98" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1 972 ihp / 1 471 Kw = 17,85 kts
Range 5 420nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 209 tons
Complement:
49 - 65
Cost:
£0,033 million / $0,130 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0,3 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0,3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0,3 %
Machinery: 138 tons, 29,3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 166 tons, 35,2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 127 tons, 26,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 38 tons, 8,1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
469 lbs / 213 Kg = 123,1 x 2,0 " / 50 mm shells or 0,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 0,5 ft / 0,2 m
Roll period: 11,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,08
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2,00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0,456
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,02 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13,43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Stern: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Average freeboard: 10,25 ft / 3,13 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73,8 %
Waterplane Area: 2 315 Square feet or 215 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 144 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 142 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,82
- Longitudinal: 5,78
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
I don't know if the additional range is really necessary - they'll be too slow to work as offensive layers, and won't be travelling too far as defensive sweepers.
The idea's not a bad one. Would a torpedo-boat have a long shelf-life after spending ~13-14 years in service with a hull strength of 0.50? It might be getting somewhat beaten up.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 06, 2007, 12:20:43 PM
I don't know if the additional range is really necessary - they'll be too slow to work as offensive layers, and won't be travelling too far as defensive sweepers.
The idea's not a bad one. Would a torpedo-boat have a long shelf-life after spending ~13-14 years in service with a hull strength of 0.50? It might be getting somewhat beaten up.
The longer range is to make it possible for them to operate together with the main fleet units, and fulfil the role of long range sweepers to some degree.
As for wear, it is true that some of the ships might be in a worn state, but just a bit over ten years in the water, mostly in peace (very few of these boats see much service in the last war), it seems unlikely that they will have reached the end of their hull life. At least not in the less strenuous work they would get as mine warfare ships. That is at least what is hoped for.
The largest worry is that refitting them will be more expensive then building a new AM-class sweeper. The advantage they would have over those ships is that they are larger, better range and better sea boats, so more suited to support fleet units.
How did you arrive at the $0.24 price? The engine is $0.28, the refit itself is $0.1. You can almost build a 300t minesweeper from scratch for the price.
I'd rip out half the boilers (I'll check some numbers but my first guess is 100-150t for the boilers), install oil burners in the coal boilers, and you'd have 50-75t for more fuel and misc. weight.
Quote from: P3D on December 06, 2007, 02:00:06 PM
How did you arrive at the $0.24 price? The engine is $0.28, the refit itself is $0.1. You can almost build a 300t minesweeper from scratch for the price.
I'd rip out half the boilers (I'll check some numbers but my first guess is 100-150t for the boilers), install oil burners in the coal boilers, and you'd have 50-75t for more fuel and misc. weight.
The new engines are not 280 tons, but 138ton, so 0,14 and then 0,1 for the refit itself.
I think boilers are included in the machinery weight, as the weight of the machinery changes when one changes boilers. In any case if the boilers were 150 tons, the engine+boilers would weight more then the entire ship at normal displacement.
Adding the cost of fuel would be strange, as that is never included in the cost of the ship otherwise, and most of the misc weight is potential cargo (mines).
EDIT:
On second reading, did you mean to keep the engines and just rip the boiler out, and that the quoted weight for boilers were only a proportion of the engine?
A problem witht hat is that SS do not allow oil fuel at that engine date.
Engine cost is double the weight. My proposed refit is difficult to implement with SS2, but can be done.
I will look into boiler weight of RN destroyers.
One of several studies for the next class of destroyers.
It is basically a enlarged G-Class ship, and with the same layout.
The major difference is that they will be fitted with FC systems, and have significantly longer range.
K.M. De Schelde Shipyard
QuoteH-Class, Netherlands Jager laid down 1912
Displacement:
1 000 t light; 1 047 t standard; 1 285 t normal; 1 476 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
329,90 ft / 324,80 ft x 29,53 ft x 11,27 ft (normal load)
100,55 m / 99,00 m x 9,00 m x 3,43 m
Armament:
5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1912 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 265 lbs / 120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21 509 shp / 16 046 Kw = 29,70 kts
Range 7 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 429 tons
Complement:
106 - 139
Cost:
£0,148 million / $0,593 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 2,6 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0,4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0,4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 612 tons, 47,6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 310 tons, 24,1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 285 tons, 22,2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 3,1 %
-25 ton FC
-10 ton Radio
-5 ton Torpedoes
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
335 lbs / 152 Kg = 6,3 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,48
Metacentric height 1,6 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 9,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,11
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,416
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18,02 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Mid (32 %): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m (9,19 ft / 2,80 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9,19 ft / 2,80 m
- Stern: 9,19 ft / 2,80 m
- Average freeboard: 11,82 ft / 3,60 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176,6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93,5 %
Waterplane Area: 5 964 Square feet or 554 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 63 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 134 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,24
- Overall: 0,54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
One of the several designs that is undergoing studies in the competition for the 1912 TBJ design.
The design is a radical deviation form traditional Dutch designs in that everything have been sacrificed to maximise her speed. With a speed of 35kts under average conditions (and even more under good conditions and/or in shallow water) it would be some of the fastest ships in the world. Together with her heavy torpedo armament the class is a formidable foe in restricted waters. The ship however lacks the firepower that is usually associated with Kingdom designs. This together with the shorter range and worse accommodations makes the ship far less suited for open sea operations then the design above.
Mij Feijenoord Shipyard, Schiedam
QuoteH-Class, Netherlands Torpedoboot laid down 1912
Displacement:
840 t light; 863 t standard; 934 t normal; 990 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
328,08 ft / 328,08 ft x 27,33 ft x 8,89 ft (normal load)
100,00 m / 100,00 m x 8,33 m x 2,71 m
Armament:
3 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
Weight of broadside 60 lbs / 27 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 34 393 shp / 25 657 Kw = 35,00 kts
Range 130nm at 35,00 kts, ~2300nm @ 12kts
Bunker at max displacement = 127 tons
Complement:
83 - 109
Cost:
£0,114 million / $0,457 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 8 tons, 0,8 %
Machinery: 560 tons, 59,9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 266 tons, 28,5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 94 tons, 10,1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 0,6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
202 lbs / 91 Kg = 9,7 x 3,5 " / 88 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,45
Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 9,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,07
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,71
Her seakeeping is 1,0 at 30,5kts
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,410
Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18,11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (30 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Stern: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Average freeboard: 10,86 ft / 3,31 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 200,3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 85,3 %
Waterplane Area: 5 553 Square feet or 516 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 33 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 128 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,07
- Overall: 0,53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Any thoughts on the designs?
The third candidate for a new TBJ-class.
She is largely a compromise between the two previous designs, lacking the speed of the Feijenoord design and the firepower of the Schelde design. However, she is still fast at over 32kts, and her range is equal to the preceding G-class ships. Her firepower is far from what is carried by the preceding class or the Schelde design, but with FC it is still average and about equal to what is carried by most other nations.
The tubes are arranged in a twin and one triple mount.
Again the lack of extra range is arguing against adopting this design, as is its lowered firepower, both which makes the ship less good in the primary missions.
Rijkswerf, Amsterdam
QuoteH-Class, Netherlands Torpedoboot laid down 1912
Displacement:
1 000 t light; 1 035 t standard; 1 168 t normal; 1 273 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
341,21 ft / 341,21 ft x 28,44 ft x 10,27 ft (normal load)
104,00 m / 104,00 m x 8,67 m x 3,13 m
Armament:
4 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37,48lbs / 17,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 150 lbs / 68 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
5 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,20" / 5 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 28 286 shp / 21 101 Kw = 32,50 kts
Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 238 tons
Complement:
99 - 129
Cost:
£0,138 million / $0,553 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 15 tons, 1,3 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0,1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0,1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 645 tons, 55,3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 297 tons, 25,5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 168 tons, 14,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 3,4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
250 lbs / 113 Kg = 8,2 x 3,9 " / 100 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,34
Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 10,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,20
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,92
Seakeeping is average at 31,4kts.
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,410
Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18,47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 75
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (35 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Stern: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Average freeboard: 11,27 ft / 3,44 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 192,2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91,1 %
Waterplane Area: 6 011 Square feet or 558 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 130 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,03
- Overall: 0,54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
And in case i have been unclear;
I would LOVE to hear which (and why) design people thing should be adopted as the next basic Jager class!
And we are talking about a run of 24 ships, so it will not be an insignificant number of keels.
The 35kts design has limited operational capabilities due to the lack of W/T.
The 32.5kts design also has limited endurance for all its displacement.
I'd build 16 of the 30kts design, plus 8 of the faster design - slowed down to 32kts for longer range.
You might want a slightly longer ranged version of the 35 knot vessel and then maybe a small selection of better armed versions of the designs (maybe slightly larger, or with less guns) as leaders.
Quote from: P3D on April 07, 2008, 04:18:22 PM
The 35kts design has limited operational capabilities due to the lack of W/T.
The 32.5kts design also has limited endurance for all its displacement.
I'd build 16 of the 30kts design, plus 8 of the faster design - slowed down to 32kts for longer range.
Adding radio to the Feijenoord is possible, adding a ten ton radio increase her size to 910ton, something that is accepteble.
Quote from: Ithekro on April 07, 2008, 08:02:46 PM
You might want a slightly longer ranged version of the 35 knot vessel and then maybe a small selection of better armed versions of the designs (maybe slightly larger, or with less guns) as leaders.
Increasing range is trickier as 80%-90% of any size increase is used up my engines and hull, giving very little payoff for increasing displacement. At 1000ton the Feijenoord design would have a range of 160nm full speed (3000nm @ 12kts) and a ten ton radio. would have a range of 160nm full speed (3000nm @ 12kts) and a ten ton radio.
The Admiralty feels that de Scheldes design is the strongest as things stand.
This due:
Superior range; allowing the ships to undertake traditional mission such as ocean patrol, escort duties and capital ship screening.
Superior firepower; allowing the designs to outgun and outfight all existing foreign destroyers as well as quite a few older light & protected cruisers.
Familiar design; the designs is a evolution of the preceding class, and ties in with existing routines and operating concepts.
While her speed is not stellar, it is enough to allow the design to operate together with the fast armoured frigates to be laid down in 1912.
The Feijenoord is otherwise a design the Navy is interested in, but it feels that such a radically different design, with such strict operating limitations is not suitable for the global mission required of the destroyer force. However we (the kingdom) are considering building a flotilla in addition to the 24 boat main class for North Sea service, were the design can shine.
Ii always interested in feedback, thoughts and questions about the designs and how they are to be used. And thanks to those who already have given some. :)
Quote from: Korpen on April 08, 2008, 05:07:21 AM
Superior range; allowing the ships to undertake traditional mission such as ocean patrol, escort duties and capital ship screening.
Range does not translate into endurance, their utility as patrol ship is still limited.
Quote from: P3D on April 08, 2008, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: Korpen on April 08, 2008, 05:07:21 AM
Superior range; allowing the ships to undertake traditional mission such as ocean patrol, escort duties and capital ship screening.
Range does not translate into endurance, their utility as patrol ship is still limited.
True, and one reason i took some pains to make sure the accomodations was slightly less cramped then is usual on DDs.
A few weeks at sea should not be outside their capabillity (even if it is very unlikley unless when at war).
Very simple concept, instead of having banks of torpedoes, the ship got a pair of 35cm guns fixed on the forecastle. The guns cannot train, but have around 3 degrees of elevation, allowing for a range of around 6km. The concept is simple, as out to that range the shell travels on such a low trajectory to be able to strike targets along almost the entire path (and below 4km, the entire path).
So the plan is that a ship such as this would go full speed towards the enemy, aim a few meters ahead of the enemy (10m) at around 4km and fire. Even if the enemy is moving at 30kts there would not be enough time to get out of the shells path.
The firecontrol is just a simple rangefinder so one knows the rough distance.
A normal ammo load out would be two shrapnel, four APC and two HE rounds per gun.
Could this work?
Hammer of Tyr, Netherlands Arial torpedoboot laid down 1912
Armoured gunboat
Displacement:
1 000 t light; 1 035 t standard; 1 132 t normal; 1 210 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
278,87 ft / 278,87 ft x 26,25 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
85,00 m / 85,00 m x 8,00 m x 3,00 m
Armament:
2 - 13,78" / 350 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1 322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mount
on bow with limited arc
Main guns limited to end-on fire
Weight of broadside 2 646 lbs / 1 200 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 8
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15 624 shp / 11 655 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 3 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 176 tons
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
96 - 126
Cost:
£0,343 million / $1,374 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 327 tons, 28,9 %
Machinery: 241 tons, 21,3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 422 tons, 37,3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 11,7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 0,9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
129 lbs / 58 Kg = 0,1 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,44
Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 9,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 44 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 3,15
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,76
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Mid (30 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Stern: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 10,83 ft / 3,30 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 268,7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108,6 %
Waterplane Area: 5 108 Square feet or 475 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 29 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 217 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 2,20
- Overall: 0,58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
If you're sending it out to attack capital ships...I suppose it might work. Only problem is she can't harm anything that isn't directly in front of her, so screening units might chew her up before she can get many rounds off.
Rather limited utility there. Can the ship support that much weight and space (and balance while manuvering)?
However, I do see a sci-fi parallel to this design (two actually)....White Star/Defiant type. Small (relative to the targets) ship, highly manuverable, with extremely heavy firepower for its size. Problem here is that while is may have the firepower, if won't have enough to kill a target (unless really lucky on critical hits) with only eight APC shells on the boat. Of course with approach speeds and her limited range, that means maybe two shots per gun at a target per run. (assuming 4km range, 27 knots closing speed and a target that might think you are on a torpedo run if they don't identify the ship correctly. About 4 minutes to shoot at the target. You might get four shots off with each gun. I doubt a half minute reload time for some reason, and timing fire with the target from a fixed platform (steerng only the ship) might take longer than a turret. Also that would make her a one use vessel in battle, if she can only attack one target on a run...though her other shell might be useful agianst crusiers. Shapnel rounds against other destroyers, or just close in on the cruisers right before you turn off?
Tactic: Use a flotilla of these in a line abreast with a line astern of torpedo boats/destroyers. Use the lead gunships to supress the enemy until you are in very close range, then turn away in line, releasing torpedoes from the train as they come to bare.
The reload of the gun could be certainly shorter , about 15sec because, the shells & pounder bags are near the gun, in light protected case, ready for use (no magazine, hoist & barbette).
BB guns on a DD...
Idea is interresting, so, I imagine the guns on the side of the little bridge to limite the weight at the stem. Your stem is too short
"...Forecastle (10 %)..."
Your ship is also
"Poor seaboat..."
Test other form of hull.
&...Place a QF gun for retreat
Jef ;)
If the range is short, IMO no need for 350mm guns. A 10-12" gun with light shells would still have adequate penetration.
Problem is, aiming in even moderately heavy seas would be close to impossible. And torpedoes are much deadlier than one or two large caliber hits - a torpedo hit is always below the waterline, and damages vital stuff (flotation reserve at the least), while a gun shot can just go through the superstructure or the hull.
Also limited utility in daylight against capital ship.
Quote from: Jefgte on April 21, 2008, 08:38:52 AM
The reload of the gun could be certainly shorter , about 15sec because, the shells & pounder bags are near the gun, in light protected case, ready for use (no magazine, hoist & barbette).
Good point i did in fact not consider reloading during an attack. I wonder if it might be possible to fit a loading tray (like on field howitzers such as FH77) to give "burst" capacity, if a 15cm gun manages 3 rounds in less then 10sek, 3 rounds in 30sek might be possible with such a system... :)
QuoteBB guns on a DD...
Idea is interresting, so, I imagine the guns on the side of the little bridge to limite the weight at the stem. Your stem is too short
"...Forecastle (10 %)..."
There is a reason for that, i suspect that the deck of a DD cannot handle a 35cm gun fired at zero elevation less then 1m above it, so the guns stick out over the stem, see picture below (fixed the angle of the bow as well).
QuoteYour ship is also
"Poor seaboat..."
That i will simply live with it :)
(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/873/ganonbtru3.png)
QuoteArmoured gunboat
Displacement:
1 000 t light; 1 035 t standard; 1 132 t normal; 1 210 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
278,87 ft / 278,87 ft x 26,25 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
85,00 m / 85,00 m x 8,00 m x 3,00 m
Armament:
2 - 13,78" / 350 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1 322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mount
on bow with limited arc
Main guns limited to end-on fire
Weight of broadside 2 646 lbs / 1 200 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 8
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15 624 shp / 11 655 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 3 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 176 tons
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
96 - 126
Cost:
£0,343 million / $1,374 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 327 tons, 28,9 %
Machinery: 241 tons, 21,3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 422 tons, 37,3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 11,7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 0,9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
127 lbs / 58 Kg = 0,1 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,44
Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 9,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 44 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 3,07
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,77
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -60,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Forecastle (22 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Mid (32 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Stern: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 10,89 ft / 3,32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 268,7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105,0 %
Waterplane Area: 5 108 Square feet or 475 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 29 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 216 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 2,23
- Overall: 0,58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Quote from: P3D on April 21, 2008, 10:41:19 AM
Problem is, aiming in even moderately heavy seas would be close to impossible. And torpedoes are much deadlier than one or two large caliber hits - a torpedo hit is always below the waterline, and damages vital stuff (flotation reserve at the least), while a gun shot can just go through the superstructure or the hull.
True that a torpedo might usally do more damage, but the guns are several times more accurate, and despite its primitive mounting, are much more likley to score hits from much longer ranges, especially against targets that tries to avoid being hit (such as by showing the tail to the boat).
Ahoj!
I suspect that the guns should cost several times more than the rest of the ship ...
Borys
Hmm kind of like the dynamite guns on Vesuvius. I was thinking of replacing torpedo tubes with 18" recoiless guns. Similar concept, probably easier to integrate, thought the guns would be more expensive and would need to be developed.
Rohan and the Swiss have a torpedo boat on that style design using a single 8" dynamite gun. Rohan has been experimenting with using rocket assist to increase its range for almost ten years. They'll likely scrap the project in a year or so and scrap all the remaining torpedo boats in the fleet.
QuoteI was thinking of replacing torpedo tubes with 18" recoiless guns.
I look forward to the technical discussion on that.
Ahoj!
Soviets equiped a destroyer with a recoiless 12" gun. And took it off quite quickly, if that is anything to go by ...
Borys
Quote from: Borys on April 24, 2008, 09:55:02 PM
Ahoj!
Soviets equiped a destroyer with a recoiless 12" gun. And took it off quite quickly, if that is anything to go by ...
Borys
I have a suspicion that the fact that 2/3rd of the charge in a recoilless weapon goes out in the back-blast. So a 30cm gun would require a larger powder charge then the 45cm gun on Yamoto, with huge blast zones at both ends. So I suspect a DD would simply rip itself apart, but it would sure as hell be impressive to see! ;D
Ahoj!
Your breakdown could be optmistic :)
Neertheless, the pics I've seen depicted the gun pointing to the side.
Borys
http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=734959gq.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=735010um.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=734993oe.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=734976tr.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=735035ix.jpg
Awww... no pic of it firing?
I feel cheated!
I wanted to see a destroyer 'take off!'