This is a topic for people to put in their preferences for countries in the different scenarios under discussion.
We know that Jefgte would like to play France in both. ;)
My preference for Conquest of Paradise would be the US, and for Decline of the Spanish Empire I'd go with the Norse League.
We can give him Quebec then. It's French (sort of) and it is original, new & certainly pleasant for him to play. ;D
I will just wait a bit and see what others come up with before making a choice.
Well...
I suppose you're not surprised that I would like to play Germany. However, that's sort of important, so not really the best choice for someone who doesn't know if he will be able to play properly.
Quote from: Nobody on July 10, 2013, 11:51:21 AM
Well...
I suppose you're not surprised that I would like to play Germany. However, that's sort of important, so not really the best choice for someone who doesn't know if he will be able to play properly.
Hanseatic League would be the rough equivalent for Germany under a decline of the Spanish Empire scenario.
My preferences would be:
Decline and Fall of the Spanish Empire: the Spanish Empire (for those of you who understand the reference; think Solarian League)
Conquest of Paradise: The Netherlands
All ship sims I'm currently working with are recycled sims from the start attempt in which I controlled Cao Wei, so I kind of like to do something Chinese again (saves time coming up with the ship names as I already have them from that particular start; also it does not need to be the whole of China).
If we plan to stick to Europe (Darman's opinion in the 1870 thread) I guess I will "move" a bunch of people and a bunch of landmarks and mountains to a location near you in Europe. :) Still need to figure out where though.
Eventhough it is Navalism, the silly idea of playing Switzerland (small navy of small ships on the lakes and a big army + lots of fortifications) also crossed my mind. "I shall be your bank, but borrow money at your own risk. Failure to pay back the money in time will result in an invasion." ;D
I have no objection in principle to the idea of a competent, industrializing Chinese empire at his time period, there's no objective reason it couldn't have happened (it would take some explaining, but that's on your head, Walter). The practical issue with a Chinese empire is that, given the rules we have, China would rapidly out-industrialize and out-produce the rest of the world because of her huge population.
Like I said, it does not need to be the whole of China. A small part of it, comparable to what the rest will have when it comes to industry and population, would be better with the rest of China being infested by the warring warlords (who will no doubt create more than a few headaches for the more 'civilized' part of China).
Alternatively (and probably more likely), I will look for some European real estate and move some asians (after all, there should be more than enough of them in Asia) there as well as some of the landmarks. Since I like mountains, perhaps Switzerland and a slice of Italy so I have some seaside property. :D
Quote from: Walter on July 28, 2013, 08:43:39 AM
Like I said, it does not need to be the whole of China. A small part of it, comparable to what the rest will have when it comes to industry and population, would be better with the rest of China being infested by the warring warlords (who will no doubt create more than a few headaches for the more 'civilized' part of China).
Alternatively (and probably more likely), I will look for some European real estate and move some asians (after all, there should be more than enough of them in Asia) there as well as some of the landmarks. Since I like mountains, perhaps Switzerland and a slice of Italy so I have some seaside property. :D
Of the two ideas, I quite prefer the former myself, in part because it's more historically reasonable. A rebellious region of China, population 30-50 million, that broke away around say 1830 or so and has been developing separately since. Such a state wohuld have the remaining Chinese empire as a natural enemy (and might, as a consequence of their enmity have started that empire modernizing as well, though more slowly and less efficiently than their rivals).
With the second one, you should not think that I'll be moving 30-50 million asians into the region and each and every monument in asia. Just a few (million :D ).
To be honest, when I posted that, I was looking at the situation from the mountains. Having looked around a bit more with Google (and having played too much Assassin's Creed II lately), I'm now leaning more towards Italy (with some additional mountain regions in the north)...
... hmmm Venice. 8)
No issue with you taking Italy, Walter, but if you do, take Italians (not Chinese).
Certainly Jef would feel more loved that way, if he had Darman to his northeast and you to his south-east. ;)
Italians eating Chinese food it is then. A good enough reason to expand to the East. Go for the source of the food. ;D
I will look friendly at Jef and smile and ask him if he has any problems with the North Italian Kingdom not giving him Savoy and Nice in 1860. :D
Quote from: Walter on July 28, 2013, 09:43:43 AM
Italians eating Chinese food it is then. A good enough reason to expand to the East. Go for the source of the food. ;D
Well, some have claimed they already do, between the pasta and the rice. ;)
QuoteI will look friendly at Jef and smile and ask him if he has any problems with the North Italian Kingdom not giving him Savoy and Nice in 1860. :D
QuoteWell, some have claimed they already do, between the pasta and the rice.
Pasta is wheat
Rice is seed
All I need
Is a little bit more speed.
Quote
No idea how I should reply to that particular part of the reply of yours. ;D
Besides
not giving Savoy and Nice to France, I was thinking of annexing Switzerland as well as a slice of Western Austria in order to have a lot more pf the Alps in my section of land for my "I like Mountains" program. 8)
Perhaps make Corsica French (Oh wait! That is already French. I meant Sardinia of course). ;D
Quote from: Walter on July 28, 2013, 01:44:23 PM
No idea how I should reply to that particular part of the reply of yours. ;D
Besides not giving Savoy and Nice to France, I was thinking of annexing Switzerland as well as a slice of Western Austria in order to have a lot more pf the Alps in my section of land for my "I like Mountains" program. 8)
Perhaps make Corsica French (Oh wait! That is already French. I meant Sardinia of course). ;D
Sounds like you've got plenty of things to do in starting in 1870. :)
Heh... >:(
Savoy & Nice are French.
Corsica is the born place of Napoléon...French too.
If you want more territories, there are more countries in south coasts of Mediterranee.
We could negociate for them :) but not about France departements.
Jef
They were stolen by the French but returned to their rightful owner, the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia, in 1815. The only reason they are French now is because the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia wanted the assistance of Napoleon III and gave it to him in 1860. :)
Looking more at France, I noticed that in 1870 the Second Empire fell and the Third Republic came into being so it is going to be interesting to see what you will be doing with France.
The sim star just before the war France vs Prussia.
So, no war with Prussia, I prefer Conquest of Paradise...
01-01-1870 : France is not a III Republique but III Empire :)
Jef ;)
Vive l'Empreur!
Heh, it's Emperor Jefgte, instead of the historical Emperor Napoleon III, so maybe some better decisions will be made. :)
Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that Bismark and those darn Germans will be sitting on their hands. ;)
Not the same history...
Conquest of Paradise first.
We could imagine with Prussian (Nobody) an official reception for Emperor Guillaume I in Paris with the Emperor Napoleon III.
Jef
... both smiling while holding knives behind their backs. :D
Good thing the French and Germans are allies now. God know how many more battles between the two we would have had when they were not.
The mod is just saying that assuming that Europe is going to be quiet for 30 years while everyone goes colony grabbing may not be a safe assumption. Italy, for example, is apparently looking at it's neighbors mountains with envy. ;) Prussia is looking to unify Germany under it's leadership, having beaten the main contender for the job, Austria-Hungary, in 1866. Etc, etc.
Conquest of Paradise, yes. Just watch your back while you're out conquering, because your neighbors may have designs on your home country.
Quote from: Walter on July 29, 2013, 06:28:23 AM
... both smiling while holding knives behind their backs. :D
Good thing the French and Germans are allies now. God know how many more battles between the two we would have had when they were not.
Crap..... and I'm stuck in between them both....
Who, if anyone, is playing Prussia is undetermined at this point, so don't worry TOO much about chatter you may over-read. ;)
Countries:
USA: Kworld (?)
Britain: Darman
France: Jefgte
Prussia: Nobody(?)
Italy: Walter
Spain:
United Provinces:
Austria:
Russia:
Any other countries we want to add to the list? These are countries I deem important, although Russia and Austria can be filled last, unless someone wants them. Other countries can be added if we get more players who are interested.
Any players I didn't mention who want to claim a country please feel free to do so.
QuoteItaly, for example, is apparently looking at it's neighbors mountains with envy.
... was actually thinking of claiming them pre-start thus having a border with the evil Huns... :P
With Conquest of Paradise, should Kworld not conquer his US territories first before he can start setting his people there? Or are we dealing with President Sitting Bull residing in the White Thipi? ;D
Quote from: Walter on July 30, 2013, 12:54:44 PM
QuoteItaly, for example, is apparently looking at it's neighbors mountains with envy.
... was actually thinking of claiming them pre-start thus having a border with the evil Huns... :P
With Conquest of Paradise, should Kworld not conquer his US territories first before he can start setting his people there? Or are we dealing with President Sitting Bull residing in the White Thipi? ;D
I'm of the opinion that there shouldn't be any countries outside of Europe just because if everyone starts in Europe then we're all on as equal a footing as we can be.
Quote from: Walter on July 30, 2013, 12:54:44 PM
QuoteItaly, for example, is apparently looking at it's neighbors mountains with envy.
... was actually thinking of claiming them pre-start thus having a border with the evil Huns... :P
With Conquest of Paradise, should Kworld not conquer his US territories first before he can start setting his people there? Or are we dealing with President Sitting Bull residing in the White Thipi? ;D
If you look at the original Conquest of Paradise proposal (here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,6316.msg82096.html#msg82096), it does say that some countries will start with overseas colonies, while others will not. The US is a moderately historical, post-US Civil War US, not a North America from a Civilization game where Sitting Bull, having strangled Montezuma in his cradle, has grown unopposed. ;)
Quote from: Darman on July 30, 2013, 01:02:57 PM
Quote from: Walter on July 30, 2013, 12:54:44 PM
QuoteItaly, for example, is apparently looking at it's neighbors mountains with envy.
... was actually thinking of claiming them pre-start thus having a border with the evil Huns... :P
With Conquest of Paradise, should Kworld not conquer his US territories first before he can start setting his people there? Or are we dealing with President Sitting Bull residing in the White Thipi? ;D
I'm of the opinion that there shouldn't be any countries outside of Europe just because if everyone starts in Europe then we're all on as equal a footing as we can be.
I disagree here, because the map gives certain countries in Europe an advantage in an expansionist scenario, and because if we back all colonization up until 1870 (the only way I'm not seeing countries in the Americas), now we have to create what groups colonizers will find in the Americas from whole cloth. In the aborted game from the spring/summer of 2012, that was easy: no one. In a game based on conquest of colonies, not so easy.
Quotebecause the map gives certain countries in Europe an advantage in an expansionist scenario
Not as much as a nation outside Europe has. If I want a piece of America, I need to send a bunch of boats over carrying troops. The US only needs to march its vast army south over land. I'm not sure what the final costs will be, but I think that for the cost of one of Darman's troopships, you could probably buy a single corps. "The ability to move 1400 men" vs "having and additional 50000 men to move over land" is a big difference. How big an army can you create from the $$ and BPs you spend on building enough troopships to move 50000 men?
I think I would rather go for a Chinese piece of land and face all those angry Chinese warlords around me and fight my way to the sea to secure locations there to build ports and ships than going for Germany trying to conquer some far away pieces of land.
Some European Countries could have a kind of assitance or goodwill for South America conquest, lend ships for ex....
South America is not only for USA.
Just so everyone knows, there are several obstacles to the US just marching south. There's Mexico, which while not on par with the major players is not a bunch of tribes that can just be beaten up and ignored (they did just finish kicking France out of Mexico only a couple years ago). There's the terrain: yes, the troops COULD march south, but they'd need supplies, that would probably need to come by ship (no north-south rail line), it would be simpler to send the troops by ship as well. There's the mod, who figures that his job is MOSTLY to run the world and be the GM for the players, not to try to take over the entire world himself (that's not fair to everyone else).
So, no, don't expect to find the US competing with you to try to take over South America. The US might interfere with your attempts to do just that (due to the Monroe Doctrine), it might colonize a particular site in someplace like Panama or Nicaragua (for a canal), or some islands in the Caribbean for bases or to kick some particular annoying neighbors out (like Cuba), but the US Army is VERY unlikely to appear at the gates of Cuzco looking to enter by force so that an American administrator can take over and run the place for the betterment of the taxpayers of Wilmington, Raleigh, and Washington, DC.
Hey guys, I'll like to join in but, what's the map state (if it's been decided)?
If Walter's playing in Asia, I'm likely to want to play something in Asia as well.
Logi, current claim state of the map is shown in http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,6319.msg82388.html#msg82388. No, Walter isn't in Asia, he's in Italy.
No, no, I've seen the post. I meant the map state, i.e. the likely territories they control. For example, does the Netherlands have DEI, etc.
In addition, are we not decided on the state of the other countries not on the list, such as the USA?
Quote from: Logi on July 31, 2013, 08:20:58 AM
No, no, I've seen the post. I meant the map state, i.e. the likely territories they control. For example, does the Netherlands have DEI, etc.
In addition, are we not decided on the state of the other countries not on the list, such as the USA?
The USA's at the top of that list......
Right now, MY plan is the following:
The Dutch will probably still control Belgium and Luxembourg, along with Cape Colony, Ceylon, and the DEI.
The Brits control parts of India, Australia, and Canada.
The French control Algeria, French Guyana, Cambodia, and Cochinchina.
The US controls Alaska.
Currently Italy doesn't have any identified colonies, but I'll probably have to give Walter something so he'll stop agitating to have Vienna as a colony. ;)
Russia, having sold Alaska to the US, has no overseas colonies, but still stretches from the Baltic to the Barents so it hardly needs any.
Austria-Hungary and Prussia have no overseas colonies.
Spain still controls Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines, while Portugal controls Angola and Mozambique, along with various small fortified trading stations along the African and India coasts. However, Cuba is in wide-spread revolt (the historical Ten Years War). [On the map, Portugal and Spain are combined, with their possessions shown in gold.]
Sardinia was part of Italy in 1870. The Venice area is also Italian.
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/history/italian_unification_risorgimento_map.html
Personally I think that Nizza and Savoia should remain Italian, but Jef did not like that idea so I won't bother him with that. :)
QuoteCurrently Italy doesn't have any identified colonies, but I'll probably have to give Walter something so he'll stop agitating to have Vienna as a colony.
Well, Vienna does come from the Italian name for it, so perhaps it should be made Italian. ;D
If you make Svizzera
(Switerland) Italian, I'll shut my mouth. :-X
QuoteCurrently Italy doesn't have any identified colonies, but I'll probably have to give Walter something so he'll stop agitating to have Vienna as a colony.
Libya could be Italy colony.
Quote from: Walter on July 31, 2013, 09:57:48 AM
Sardinia was part of Italy in 1870. The Venice area is also Italian.
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/history/italian_unification_risorgimento_map.html
Personally I think that Nizza and Savoia should remain Italian, but Jef did not like that idea so I won't bother him with that. :)
Updated the map.
QuoteQuoteCurrently Italy doesn't have any identified colonies, but I'll probably have to give Walter something so he'll stop agitating to have Vienna as a colony.
Well, Vienna does come from the Italian name for it, so perhaps it should be made Italian. ;D
If you make Svizzera (Switerland) Italian, I'll shut my mouth. :-X
Hah, but in that case, would we have to buy Italian chocolates???
Quote from: Jefgte on July 31, 2013, 10:12:46 AM
QuoteCurrently Italy doesn't have any identified colonies, but I'll probably have to give Walter something so he'll stop agitating to have Vienna as a colony.
Libya could be Italy colony.
Actually, looking at the history of things, the most likely Italian colony at this time period would seem to be Tunisia. Going east from there in the future would certainly make sense, though.
QuoteHah, but in that case, would we have to buy Italian chocolates???
Everybody will love our Italian Chocolates... and it will be an excellent combination with our Italian Icecream. :D
I'm wavering between Spain, some part of China (as per Walter), and Japan.
A likely explanation for China (as per Walter) would be that the Taiping revolution (which happened around 1850-1860) allied with the Nein Rebellion and as a result was able to maintain a de facto ceasefire with the Qing government as the Qing government's hands were tied up in other revolts within China. Therefore the civilized portion of China would be the territory of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom (Jiangxi, Zhejiang, Jiangsu, Anhui, Hubei, Fuijian, Henan)
The warlords could be separated by their respective rebellions:
Dungan Rebellion (Gansu, Shanxi, Ningxia, Xinjiang), Miao Rebellion (Guizhou), Panthay Rebellion (Yunnan)
As detailed by these maps: link (http://qed.princeton.edu/getfile.php?f=Collapse_of_the_Chinese_empire_-_rebellions_and_foreign_attacks,_1839-1901.jpg) link (http://oook.info/anth230/rebelmap.jpg) link (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Taiping2.PNG) link (http://taipingrebellion.com/TapingRebellionMap.gif)
I attached an approximate map for the scenario.
Yellow - Qing Dynasty, Purple - Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, Brown - Dungan Rebellion, Green - Panthay Rebellion, Pink - Miao Rebellion, Blue - France, Light Green - Spain, Orange - Netherlands, Red - Japan, Dark Red - Russia
... hmm... I forgot about Italy and the helmets with dead chickens on them... need to do something about that...
QuoteTherefore the civilized portion of China would be the territory of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom
Dungan Warlord: "Die Taiping barbarian scum! You are blocking my way to the beaches and the pretty girls in swimsuits!!!" *declares war* ;D
Logi,
Iberia as a whole only has a population of 20 million or so, which puts it above the Dutch but well below everyone else for home population. In the immediate term, that doesn't much matter, but when you try to buy more IC, it will. A segment of China will have a population of around 40 million or so (because we'll so hand-wave it), Japan about 33 million. Japan, of course, has the upside of being on an island, but it has the downside of being on an island as well: hard to get to, but hard to get out as well.
oh, what part(s) of India does Britain possess?
I knew something was off...
... I doubt there is a large section of land there in the South Atlantic that is owned by the US if we use the historical earth...
Hah, yes. Fixed.
As to the question of what parts of India does the UK control, the answer is Bombay, the Central Provinces, the Punjab, and Hyderabad. Population approximately 90 million.
I think I might play Japan. By the by, I have on hand the World98+ map (8000x3859) converted into PNG.
The world is divided into the countries' internal subdivisions (provinces, states, etc.).
If there is a desire for the map, I will upload it. I've attached low res version of the file (4000x1929 JPG max compression) as a preview.
Divisions that small are unnecessary.
It should be to make it more correct, but for the individual territories for each nation, it is probably better to use the more crude bits of land from the other map
(PS, I'm still waiting for my piece of Chocolate lands... and I also need it for the Swiss guard to protect some things)QuoteJPG max compression
Gyaaaaaagh!!! Super jpg compression!!
My eyes hurt!!! :o ;D
Quote from: Walter on August 06, 2013, 01:36:57 PM
It should be to make it more correct, but for the individual territories for each nation, it is probably better to use the more crude bits of land from the other map (PS, I'm still waiting for my piece of Chocolate lands... and I also need it for the Swiss guard to protect some things)
The Swiss Guard's already guarding the Pope, in Rome. :)
It's not just the Pope. It's for some other things as well. If you have ever read the wiki bit on it, you'll probably know that in the past they did a lot more than just that and that the Swiss Constitution forbids them to do that now (with exception of protecting the Pope).
If we want a more precise map we can use a blank Victoria II map.
The Vic2 map is too detailed in some cases. There's too much division within large countries in which such is relatively unnecessary. Case in point, the USA and China.
However, I can go and clean up the map for our use - if we decide to use that map.