After the troubles that France has undergone, and the political games awarding , or especialy not awarding ship builders contracts La patrie has gotten a seriously outdated fleet. With the strongest units, the Danton Class, being designed and build in the late 19th century.
With the lessons learned from watching others and the losses of France, Premier Paixhans, and the new minister of defence Dupuytren are looking very closely in the new role of the Marine National.
To replace the 4 elderly battleships of the Formidable class , what are in need for a refit, several shipbuilders have send in proposals.
Not to upset the limited Naval budget, the new class cannot use more than 47000 tons displacement.
Design One, from the Chantiers de st NazaireQuoteChanson, French Battleship laid down 1906
Displacement:
14.076 t light; 14.878 t standard; 17.547 t normal; 19.683 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
446,19 ft / 442,91 ft x 88,58 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
136,00 m / 135,00 m x 27,00 m x 8,40 m
Armament:
4 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns (4x2 guns), 137,06lbs / 62,17kg shells, 1901 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
12 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns (8 mounts), 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6.538 lbs / 2.965 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 277,23 ft / 84,50 m 11,08 ft / 3,38 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 149,26 ft / 45,49 m 11,08 ft / 3,38 m
16,42 ft / 5,01 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 7,00" / 178 mm 277,23 ft / 84,50 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 96% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 440,00 ft / 134,11 m 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
2nd: 8,00" / 203 mm 6,00" / 152 mm 6,00" / 152 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2,50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 24.206 shp / 18.058 Kw = 20,26 kts
Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.805 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
761 - 990
Cost:
£1,369 million / $5,477 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 755 tons, 4,3%
Armour: 5.540 tons, 31,6%
- Belts: 2.482 tons, 14,1%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 488 tons, 2,8%
- Armament: 1.122 tons, 6,4%
- Armour Deck: 1.288 tons, 7,3%
- Conning Tower: 160 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.729 tons, 9,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.701 tons, 32,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.471 tons, 19,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24.424 lbs / 11.079 Kg = 20,4 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,22
Metacentric height 6,0 ft / 1,8 m
Roll period: 15,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,33
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,33
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,568
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21,05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 14,47 ft / 4,41 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 14,47 ft / 4,41 m
- Stern: 14,47 ft / 4,41 m
- Average freeboard: 16,69 ft / 5,09 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109,2%
Waterplane Area: 27.848 Square feet or 2.587 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 728 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,92
- Longitudinal: 2,24
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
A variation on the proposed extremely expensive F class battleships, using the excelent 340mm guns and 2 of the UKA provided 12000 HP turbine units. By sacrificing 1 main turret the hull can be kept smaller so 3 ships of this class will replace the 4 elderly Formidables.
The secundary turrets are the same as used on the Ville Class AC's
The 350 tons misc weight represent the marconi set and the command facilities for a flagship.
Ahoj!
Secondary battery is too weak - 4 guns a side is not enough. Two shafts is IMO ahistorical, and dangerous - use 4 5000shp turbines for 17-18 knots. These guys are neither chasing anybody, nor running away. They are there to slug it out.
Use the weight savings on armour and secondaries. And keep the imported turbines for ACs - they need speed.
Just my two Groschen.
Borys
Borys, You're right in most respects. I myself would go for an 18kts battleline.
And that is perfectly acceptable with homegrown turbines.
In effect, France wants visual imposing ships. But that's difficult with the "budget" constraints I'm imposing on myself...
QuoteAria, French Battleship laid down 1906
Displacement:
16.186 t light; 17.180 t standard; 20.065 t normal; 22.373 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
479,00 ft / 475,72 ft x 95,14 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
146,00 m / 145,00 m x 29,00 m x 8,40 m
Armament:
6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns (8x2 guns), 137,06lbs / 62,17kg shells, 1901 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
12 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 10.280 lbs / 4.663 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 277,23 ft / 84,50 m 11,08 ft / 3,38 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 149,26 ft / 45,49 m 11,08 ft / 3,38 m
49,23 ft / 15,01 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 7,00" / 178 mm 277,23 ft / 84,50 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 90% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 440,00 ft / 134,11 m 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
2nd: 8,00" / 203 mm 6,00" / 152 mm 6,00" / 152 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2,50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 16.299 shp / 12.159 Kw = 18,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.193 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
842 - 1.095
Cost:
£1,731 million / $6,924 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.192 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 6.472 tons, 32,3%
- Belts: 2.529 tons, 12,6%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 488 tons, 2,4%
- Armament: 1.801 tons, 9,0%
- Armour Deck: 1.479 tons, 7,4%
- Conning Tower: 175 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.164 tons, 5,8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.157 tons, 35,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.879 tons, 19,3%
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28.629 lbs / 12.986 Kg = 23,9 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
Metacentric height 6,3 ft / 1,9 m
Roll period: 15,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 79 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,58
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,563
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21,81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 14,47 ft / 4,41 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 14,47 ft / 4,41 m
- Stern: 14,47 ft / 4,41 m
- Average freeboard: 16,69 ft / 5,09 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113,4%
Waterplane Area: 31.976 Square feet or 2.971 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 819 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 2,04
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
With only a little growth in size this ship will use the first French build turbines. Using 3 main 340 gun turrets and 8 Ville class secundaries
The 200 tons misc weight represent the marconi set and the command facilities for a flagship.
The first design was step back 10 years. If you don't have medium-caliber armament, you need three turrets. Secondary should be 16x140mm or 12x165mm.
6000nm@14kts is excessive. Scale it back to 12 knots - until you have oil firing this is only a waste of dispacement.
350t of misc weight - for what? 100t should be enough for most of what you need - including "special" installations.
I think battleships should be seconds priority behing Armored/Battlecruisers. France has to "up" the DKB designs if only for national prestige - that is BCs with 6x340mm guns, with 24 knots. It is feasible on a *gasp* 20000t light displacement.
Torpedo bulkhead is not strong enough. For battleship it should be 35-40mm.
Armor: use 11.55", 8.4" 4.2" 7.35", 10.50" thickness for the belt, and 2.3" or 2.9" for the deck.
18" knot ships are a stopgap measure only. Won't a full 20000HP give you one knots?
Ahoj!
IMO better.
Are 165mm deck mounts intentional, or a miss-click?
IMO anything above 38mm for TBS is a waste - it is a splinter catcher.
Borys
Heavily redesigned version of Napoleon the Great, only 1500t a ship more expensive.
Chanson, France battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
15,540 t light; 16,590 t standard; 18,911 t normal; 20,767 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 27.35 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 24.38 m x 8.34 m
Armament:
6 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6.50" / 165 mm guns in single mounts, 137.06lbs / 62.17kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm guns in single mounts, 10.47lbs / 4.75kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
20 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 9,758 lbs / 4,426 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 320.00 ft / 97.54 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 230.00 ft / 70.10 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 320.00 ft / 97.54 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 320.00 ft / 97.54 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,271 shp / 17,360 Kw = 20.35 kts
Range 6,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,177 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
806 - 1,048
Cost:
£1.654 million / $6.614 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,127 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 6,295 tons, 33.3 %
- Belts: 2,906 tons, 15.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 296 tons, 1.6 %
- Armament: 1,505 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,420 tons, 7.5 %
- Conning Tower: 168 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,164 tons, 6.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,804 tons, 36.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,371 tons, 17.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,639 lbs / 12,083 Kg = 22.2 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 4.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.42
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (40 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 17.14 ft / 5.22 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.2 %
Waterplane Area: 30,707 Square feet or 2,853 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 153 lbs/sq ft or 749 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Well, 60mm torpedo bulkhead can mean void-fuel-fuel-void with 3x10mm and 1x30mm plates but that's at least two BB Architecture techs away.
It's a great idea Earl822. The Hull of Napoleon the Great is rusting away on the slip. So, why not using that as a stop gap messure.
Also, combined with the imput from the others this 165m long ship will serve the Purpose of being "Visible" perfectly. Again, the secundaries are the Ville Class 165mm double mount and hoists. With a twist...
Major change is draft. The way lighter engines raise the ship with .5m, and give enough room for an extensive secundary belt. The whole ship is up to the gills in 8" armor.
QuoteNapoleon the Great, France battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
18.438 t light; 19.454 t standard; 21.243 t normal; 22.675 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
541,34 ft / 541,34 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 95,14 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
165,00 m / 165,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 29,00 m) x 8,00 m
Armament:
6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns (8x2 guns), 137,06lbs / 62,17kg shells, 1903 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1903 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1903 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 10.259 lbs / 4.653 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 300,00 ft / 91,44 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
Ends: 8,00" / 203 mm 241,33 ft / 73,56 m 10,86 ft / 3,31 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 341,21 ft / 104,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 85% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1,50" / 38 mm 540,21 ft / 164,66 m 25,59 ft / 7,80 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 7,09" / 180 mm 8,66" / 220 mm
2nd: 8,00" / 203 mm 6,00" / 152 mm 6,00" / 152 mm
- Armour deck: 2,30" / 58 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19.826 shp / 14.790 Kw = 19,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.221 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
879 - 1.143
Cost:
£1,783 million / $7,134 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.190 tons, 5,6%
Armour: 7.949 tons, 37,4%
- Belts: 3.863 tons, 18,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 767 tons, 3,6%
- Armament: 1.802 tons, 8,5%
- Armour Deck: 1.319 tons, 6,2%
- Conning Tower: 198 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 991 tons, 4,7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.058 tons, 37,9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.806 tons, 13,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 1,2%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34.361 lbs / 15.586 Kg = 28,7 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 7,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
Metacentric height 4,7 ft / 1,4 m
Roll period: 18,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,61
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,69 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (20%): 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Mid (50%): 17,68 ft / 5,39 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 17,68 ft / 5,39 m
- Stern: 17,68 ft / 5,39 m
- Average freeboard: 20,37 ft / 6,21 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129,5%
Waterplane Area: 30.987 Square feet or 2.879 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 835 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 1,79
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The hull from Napoleon the Great, with the knowlegde gathered all over the world
An extensive redesign with the first French domestic turbines and the succesfull moint and hoist 165mm from the Ville Class AC as main secundary mount.
The 250 tons misc weight represent the marconi and the power room for the hydraulics needed to give the secundaries the capacity to turn fast enough.
Scary to see the Arcadia's half-sister/cousin come back out again after all she went through.
Er... French does not have domestic turbines. You have to import even 5000HP turbines.
By the rules if you consider 6.5" guns a medium-caliber gun, then you can put them on turrets with barbettes on the ship. But not mount with hoists unless they' have no more than splinter armor (1").
Or if it is a small-caliber, "secondary" gun, then it will have to go into the casemates.
@ Ithekro
The only relation Napoleon the Great has with the Napoleon III class is the turrets.
In no other respect she has any connection with those ships.
Also, I believe, with this ship France has an eycatcher again.
@ P³D, redesigning during dinner....
Ahhh.... Good to know.
Would using existing Armored Cruiser turrets make any difference P3D?
But will she still be ugly?
Cause its in the rules and if its in the rules you have to live with it even if it makes absolutely no sense.
Maddox your going to have to come up with something bigger if NS builds Enterprise...
Just had to keep my head with the rules. If I don't follow them, why should anyone else?
Retry, and it just didn't get better.
Changed the 4 5000 hp turbines in 2 12000 hp- from the 30 that are being delivered by the UKA.
Removed the 8 double 165mm moint and hoists in favor of 2 275mm main gun turrets.
Reduced the armor on the upper belt and the ends with 1"
Introduced 105mm QF guns in casemates. The 70mm QF get a spot on the superstructure and main gun roofs.
Reduced the misc weight- what was partialy to give the 165mm guns the power they need.
And a few other tweaks to get the weight ok.
QuoteNapoleon the Great, France battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
18.522 t light; 19.454 t standard; 21.243 t normal; 22.675 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
541,34 ft / 541,34 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 95,14 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
165,00 m / 165,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 29,00 m) x 8,00 m
Armament:
6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
4 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (2x2 guns), 634,55lbs / 287,83kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
12 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1903 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1903 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1903 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11.026 lbs / 5.001 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 300,00 ft / 91,44 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
Ends: 7,00" / 178 mm 240,00 ft / 73,15 m 10,86 ft / 3,31 m
1,34 ft / 0,41 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 7,00" / 178 mm 341,21 ft / 104,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 85% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1,50" / 38 mm 540,21 ft / 164,66 m 25,59 ft / 7,80 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 8,00" / 203 mm
2nd: 9,00" / 229 mm 6,00" / 152 mm 6,00" / 152 mm
3rd: 3,00" / 76 mm - -
4th: 1,50" / 38 mm 1,00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 24.009 shp / 17.911 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.221 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
879 - 1.143
Cost:
£1,896 million / $7,585 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.286 tons, 6,1%
Armour: 7.605 tons, 35,8%
- Belts: 3.642 tons, 17,1%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 767 tons, 3,6%
- Armament: 1.851 tons, 8,7%
- Armour Deck: 1.147 tons, 5,4%
- Conning Tower: 198 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.200 tons, 5,7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.331 tons, 39,2%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.721 tons, 12,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31.865 lbs / 14.454 Kg = 26,6 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 6,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 4,9 ft / 1,5 m
Roll period: 18,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 81 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,61
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,69 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (20%): 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Mid (50%): 17,68 ft / 5,39 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 17,68 ft / 5,39 m
- Stern: 17,68 ft / 5,39 m
- Average freeboard: 20,37 ft / 6,21 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129,5%
Waterplane Area: 30.987 Square feet or 2.879 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 863 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 1,84
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The hull from Napoleon the Great, with the knowledge gathered all over the world
The 2 12 000 HP turbines are the first ones delivered by the UKA.
The 100 tons misc weight represent the marconi and flag facilities.
Thats more French ;D
Somehow, I've just ended up with the most powerful new BB's in the N-Verse.
I might cancel one of the Dreadnoughts, and build a BC counter to the new one from Rohan
;D
Turrets yes, mounts with hoists no.
Desertfox: the 6-7" guns are unfortunately at the borderline of medium and small-caliber guns. If they are considered both, then cutting edge and above light cruiser technology is superfluous - everyone will build small armored cruisers with 6.5" guns.
Quote from: Earl822 on March 27, 2007, 12:55:31 PM
Somehow, I've just ended up with the most powerful new BB's in the N-Verse.
I might cancel one of the Dreadnoughts, and build a BC counter to the new one from Rohan
;D
The Orange Minister of Finance inquired about the price of how much the next generation of ships with some revolutionary feature would cost, and commented that's a very expensive price for a pair of battleships. When he was corrected that the price is for one ship he fainted.
The Ville Class AC's are considered a partial failure by the French admirality. The weak main guns are good to hunt out light cruisers, and the good armor can withstand most shells of those. But going toe to toe with anything heavier will be a disaster.On the other hand, their speed makes them very usefull.
But that's a discusion for another tread.
QuoteThe Orange Minister of Finance inquired about the price of how much the next generation of ships with some revolutionary feature would cost, and commented that's a very expensive price for a pair of battleships. When he was corrected that the price is for one ship he fainted.
Yes, 54BP for 3 very powerful ships, 3 ships each able to shoot twice as many 340mm shells as each Danton class ship.
I am rather thinking of 54BP for two ships...
your ships, I trust ;D
Minister Dupuytren, how can I help you?
Simple premier Paixhans. We need a bigger budget for the new battleships. With the Napoleon the Great approved for the rebuild, we noticed that she's not the best, nor fastest, nor best armed or armored ship in the World. I would like to propose to exchange the Formidable class for 2 more capable ships, each of 28000 tons trial displacement . This will give us Napoleon the Great next year but the new ships will take 3 to 4 years to construct.
So Minister, you propose less ships at sea in exchange for 2 prestige projects more.
Premier, it is only 1 hull less. With our diminished demands in the South Atlantic that shouldn't be a big problem. And we have a name to keep up. Even 3th rate naval countries as the Middle Kingdom is aquiring larger ships.
That last bit you'll have to explain.
Easy enough Premier. With the Mantsjoeria question and the Russian rebellion over there, the Middle kingdom has aquired at least 2 modern battleships. And you know, Magenta and Marceau even modernized, can't go up against those Russian monsters. Let be the not so modern classes we have so many of. if we don't go bigger and more modern, we'll get to be a second rather soon.
The same for our armored cruisers. The Ville Class have proven to be good cruiser hunters, but the 165mm guns lack the punch to hurt larger ships.
That ,minister is a matter for another time. I have heard your plea for new battleships. And will consider your words. But now I have work to do.
QuoteWith the Mantsjoeria question and the Russian rebellion over there, the Middle kingdom has aquired at least 2 modern battleships. And you know, Magenta and Marceau even modernized, can't go up against those Russian monsters
???
Isn't it obvious?
The Chinese are coming! We must increase the naval budget!
I dont get this part:
QuoteWith the Mantsjoeria question and the Russian rebellion over there, the Middle kingdom has aquired at least 2 modern battleships. And you know, Magenta and Marceau even modernized, can't go up against those Russian monsters
Where from?
In the Great Russian Pacific Fleet Scrapyard Sale.
Ahoj!
Japan acquired the Russian Far Eastern fleet, crews included. However, not all crews wanted to be mercenaries - they wanted to go home. And also, just as importantly, the Middle Kingdom expected payment for Manchuria. Port Artur was apparently not enough for the insatiable Peking court - thus supply met demand - and several dozen warships reinforced the Dragon penant-flying Imperial Fleet.
However, the MK fleet is experiencing acute manning problems. In some areas coastal villages are half-starving, the fishermen fearing to take to sea as not to be kidnapped in the navy's latest recruitment drive. And Navy officers are promoted beyond their years and experience ....
Borys
*grumble grumble*
Grumble along Desertfox. But you don't have to defent home waters against the MK hordes.
Yeah, things go like normal, the "who's the bigger dragon is Asia?" factor will kick in again.
With Napoleon the Great in build, and another batch of the UKA turbines arriving, the team that gave us Greater Napoleon want to do an Encore
QuoteAlsace , French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
26.497 t light; 27.932 t standard; 30.756 t normal; 33.015 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
590,55 ft / 590,55 ft x 104,99 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
180,00 m / 180,00 m x 32,00 m x 8,40 m
Armament:
6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (4x2 guns), 634,55lbs / 287,83kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
10 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1901 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
10 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 14.066 lbs / 6.380 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,8" / 351 mm 383,86 ft / 117,00 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Ends: 6,90" / 175 mm 206,66 ft / 62,99 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Upper: 9,20" / 234 mm 383,86 ft / 117,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,15" / 29 mm 590,55 ft / 180,00 m 32,81 ft / 10,00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,8" / 351 mm 9,20" / 234 mm 11,5" / 292 mm
2nd: 11,5" / 292 mm 9,20" / 234 mm 9,20" / 234 mm
3rd: 6,90" / 175 mm 1,57" / 40 mm 2,36" / 60 mm
4th: 1,15" / 29 mm - -
5th: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3,45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 13,80" / 351 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 30.411 shp / 22.687 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 7.500nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.083 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1.160 - 1.509
Cost:
£2,530 million / $10,120 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.655 tons, 5,4%
Armour: 11.932 tons, 38,8%
- Belts: 4.696 tons, 15,3%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 824 tons, 2,7%
- Armament: 3.144 tons, 10,2%
- Armour Deck: 2.976 tons, 9,7%
- Conning Tower: 292 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.521 tons, 4,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.240 tons, 36,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.259 tons, 13,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
51.693 lbs / 23.448 Kg = 43,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 10,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
Metacentric height 7,3 ft / 2,2 m
Roll period: 16,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,46
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,630
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28,87 ft / 8,80 m
- Forecastle (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Stern: 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Average freeboard: 19,56 ft / 5,96 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140,7%
Waterplane Area: 46.629 Square feet or 4.332 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 901 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,54
- Overall: 1,01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The turbines are operated at a lower steam temperature than they are rated for, because the endurance and maintenance scedules are still in doubt.
if this ship comes to be, 2 will be build. Alsace and Gascogne.
Honestly I don't understand why the French are putting 275mm guns beside the 340mm ones. The logic for installing medium-caliber armament was to be able to punch through secondary armor that was thich enough to defeat 6" projectiles, while having a significantly higher rate of fire than main guns. The ROF of 275mm guns are not significantly different from 340mm ones. Higher ROF needs a 7-9" guns. 11" guns are neither fish nor fowl here - falling down between two saddles.
Nevermind that spotting will not allow the use of one of the main caliber guns until the range is established.
Its a French ship, it has to look ugly.
Tradition.
I suppose in theory the French want to be able to engage both Battleships and Armored Cruisers at the same time using the different caliber weapons. Ships like Aki and the historical Dantons are from this period in time...The semi-dreadnoughts.
In lay out this proposal is just a Greater Napoleon with smaller secundaries. And the keel problem eliminated.
But the possibility of building this is small... I have other idea's
Danton had 240mm guns. A 275mm gun has the disadvantage of both lower ROF (compared to, say, a 240mm gun) and the lack of ability to penetrate main belt armor.
There's a reason that semidreadnoughts did not have guns larger than 10" - and usually 8-9.4" ones.
This monster any better then?
QuoteLorraine, French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
26.724 t light; 28.110 t standard; 30.756 t normal; 32.873 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
590,55 ft / 590,55 ft x 104,99 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
180,00 m / 180,00 m x 32,00 m x 8,40 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (4x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
10 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1901 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
16 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13.419 lbs / 6.087 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,8" / 351 mm 383,86 ft / 117,00 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Ends: 9,20" / 234 mm 206,66 ft / 62,99 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Upper: 9,20" / 234 mm 383,86 ft / 117,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,75" / 44 mm 590,55 ft / 180,00 m 32,81 ft / 10,00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,8" / 351 mm 9,20" / 234 mm 11,5" / 292 mm
2nd: 9,20" / 234 mm 9,20" / 234 mm 9,20" / 234 mm
3rd: 6,90" / 175 mm 1,57" / 40 mm 2,36" / 60 mm
4th: 1,15" / 29 mm - -
5th: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3,45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 14,80" / 376 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 30.411 shp / 22.687 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.763 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1.160 - 1.509
Cost:
£2,453 million / $9,814 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.554 tons, 5,1%
Armour: 12.641 tons, 41,1%
- Belts: 4.906 tons, 15,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.255 tons, 4,1%
- Armament: 3.192 tons, 10,4%
- Armour Deck: 2.976 tons, 9,7%
- Conning Tower: 313 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 1.521 tons, 4,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.859 tons, 35,3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.032 tons, 13,1%
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
54.152 lbs / 24.563 Kg = 45,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 11,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
Metacentric height 7,4 ft / 2,2 m
Roll period: 16,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,45
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,630
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28,87 ft / 8,80 m
- Forecastle (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Stern: 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Average freeboard: 19,56 ft / 5,96 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140,7%
Waterplane Area: 46.629 Square feet or 4.332 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 870 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,48
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
- have at least three 2x7.5" turrets on each side
- correct 140mm gun mounts to casemate, and increase their number to 12-16.
- I see no special need for the 57mm guns.
That would look like a real Danton.....
Not really. Two more turrets, larger guns, thicker armour.
I must say P³D, your suggestions didn't fall to deaf mens ears. So I present you, the latest variation on the old F class design....
QuoteLorraine, French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
27.950 t light; 29.371 t standard; 32.095 t normal; 34.275 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
590,55 ft / 590,55 ft x 109,91 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
180,00 m / 180,00 m x 33,50 m x 8,40 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (6x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1901 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
10 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 14.906 lbs / 6.761 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,8" / 351 mm 383,00 ft / 116,74 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
Ends: 9,20" / 234 mm 206,00 ft / 62,79 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
1,55 ft / 0,47 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 9,20" / 234 mm 383,00 ft / 116,74 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,45" / 37 mm 590,00 ft / 179,83 m 32,00 ft / 9,75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,8" / 351 mm 9,20" / 234 mm 11,5" / 292 mm
2nd: 9,20" / 234 mm 9,20" / 234 mm 9,20" / 234 mm
3rd: 9,20" / 234 mm 1,50" / 38 mm 2,30" / 58 mm
4th: 1,15" / 29 mm - -
5th: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3,45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 13,80" / 351 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 31.414 shp / 23.435 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.905 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1.198 - 1.558
Cost:
£2,645 million / $10,578 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.722 tons, 5,4%
Armour: 13.006 tons, 40,5%
- Belts: 4.638 tons, 14,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.013 tons, 3,2%
- Armament: 3.945 tons, 12,3%
- Armour Deck: 3.110 tons, 9,7%
- Conning Tower: 300 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.571 tons, 4,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.452 tons, 35,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.146 tons, 12,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55.257 lbs / 25.064 Kg = 46,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 11,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
Metacentric height 8,2 ft / 2,5 m
Roll period: 16,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,43
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,628
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,37 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28,87 ft / 8,80 m
- Forecastle (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Stern: 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Average freeboard: 19,56 ft / 5,96 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70,3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142,3%
Waterplane Area: 48.724 Square feet or 4.527 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 893 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,48
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ahoj!
I love it - so many powder rooms ... and I'm not talking 'bout the ladies' variety ....
Borys
Oh, it seems you like Agincourt too Borys.
You'll have to admit, even the shields of the 140mm guns are "sturdy" with their 9.2" and for the rest, try to reach one of the main powder rooms below the turrets.
Armor sceme on this ships is "extensive"
But your sentiment is heard, and you can rest assured this monster isn't cutting the cheese either.
Ahoj!
It is true that I will be able to blow here sky-high no sooner than in 1911-12, when I will have on strength a new generation of battleships.
Borys
In theory, with some handing out of a lot of $, France can have this build.
The same ship as the powder room. But no casemates, the 105mm's are seen as TB deterent, nothing else. The weight of Broadside lowers a but by lack of 140mm guns. But the more sensible lay out and decreased " golden twinkie opportunity" cancels that out.
I'm trying to avoid Hindsight and "logic" but still retain a plausible vessel.
QuoteCiel Bleu
French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
27.848 t light; 29.131 t standard; 31.840 t normal; 34.007 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
590,55 ft / 590,55 ft x 109,91 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
180,00 m / 180,00 m x 33,50 m x 8,40 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (4x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
20 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1901 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12.604 lbs / 5.717 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,8" / 351 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
Ends: 9,20" / 234 mm 190,54 ft / 58,08 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
Upper: 9,20" / 234 mm 383,00 ft / 116,74 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 104% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,45" / 37 mm 590,00 ft / 179,83 m 32,00 ft / 9,75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,8" / 351 mm 9,20" / 234 mm 11,5" / 292 mm
2nd: 9,20" / 234 mm 9,20" / 234 mm 9,20" / 234 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,50" / 38 mm -
4th: 1,15" / 29 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3,45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 13,80" / 351 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 31.204 shp / 23.278 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.876 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1.191 - 1.549
Cost:
£2,413 million / $9,651 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.452 tons, 4,6%
Armour: 13.312 tons, 41,8%
- Belts: 5.640 tons, 17,7%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.013 tons, 3,2%
- Armament: 3.265 tons, 10,3%
- Armour Deck: 3.095 tons, 9,7%
- Conning Tower: 299 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.560 tons, 4,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.324 tons, 35,6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.992 tons, 12,5%
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
60.185 lbs / 27.299 Kg = 50,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 13,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
Metacentric height 7,8 ft / 2,4 m
Roll period: 16,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,44
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,623
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,37 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28,87 ft / 8,80 m
- Forecastle (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Stern: 16,99 ft / 5,18 m
- Average freeboard: 19,56 ft / 5,96 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142,5%
Waterplane Area: 48.499 Square feet or 4.506 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 887 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,52
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
With plans from other countries in the world to build 28000 tons BB's. France has to look into increasing it's Battle Ship budget.
The talks between Minister of Defence Dupuytren and Premier Paixhans did come out that the first of the new BB's together with 2 large fast cruisers will layed down early july 1906. The only problem is deciding what design gets preference. Even ordering ships at the UK is considered.
French 1906 BB. Enlarged and of a less slender build than the previous ships (you'll see that the block coefficient with the previous ships is like a cruiser , not a ponderous BB)
QuoteChanson , France Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
28.191 t light; 30.192 t standard; 33.352 t normal; 35.880 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
610,24 ft / 603,67 ft x 108,27 ft x 28,22 ft (normal load)
186,00 m / 184,00 m x 33,00 m x 8,60 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns in single mounts, 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
14 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1900 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
18 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (10 mounts), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1901 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 15.252 lbs / 6.918 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,8" / 376 mm 392,39 ft / 119,60 m 11,52 ft / 3,51 m
Ends: 9,00" / 229 mm 211,25 ft / 64,39 m 11,52 ft / 3,51 m
Upper: 9,00" / 229 mm 392,39 ft / 119,60 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 550,00 ft / 167,64 m 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,8" / 376 mm 12,0" / 305 mm 13,0" / 330 mm
2nd: 10,0" / 254 mm 4,00" / 102 mm 4,00" / 102 mm
3rd: 8,00" / 203 mm 4,00" / 102 mm 4,00" / 102 mm
4th: 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 31.846 shp / 23.757 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 8.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.688 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1.233 - 1.604
Cost:
£2,694 million / $10,777 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.767 tons, 5,3%
Armour: 13.545 tons, 40,6%
- Belts: 5.050 tons, 15,1%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 916 tons, 2,7%
- Armament: 3.597 tons, 10,8%
- Armour Deck: 3.648 tons, 10,9%
- Conning Tower: 335 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 1.592 tons, 4,8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.136 tons, 33,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.160 tons, 15,5%
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,4%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57.173 lbs / 25.933 Kg = 47,7 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 11,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,27
Metacentric height 8,7 ft / 2,7 m
Roll period: 15,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,35
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,47
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,633
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,58 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,57 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (50%): 17,29 ft / 5,27 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 17,29 ft / 5,27 m
- Stern: 17,29 ft / 5,27 m
- Average freeboard: 19,36 ft / 5,90 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71,4%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138,7%
Waterplane Area: 49.291 Square feet or 4.579 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 852 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,42
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The return to all casemated secundary guns is given in by the fear of vurnable secundairy magazines. And a bit of trying to cut down the cost.
The long range was demanded by Monsieur Le Carburme in parliament, who started a good campagne with as reasoning that French WarShips will not buy foreign coal anymore if it can be avoided.
High quality steaming coal is probably imported anyway ....
So we are back to 'my ship is bigger than yours' race? NS will watch from the sidelines. I can build 90 of those muti purpose ships for one of these monsters. And I can gladly exchange 9 of them for one of these monsters anytime.
French politicians do see their achivements different from the New Swiss.
It is interesting to watch the ships get larger - in some cases, double the size of the last vessel built by a given nation. There might be something to be said for caution and a more gradual growth of ship sizes.
For France this isn't a doubling. But that isn't the main issue.
After a build stop of about 6 years, and seeing the ships over the world going bigger there isn't much choise than to trumph them all.
If Premier Paixhans and minister Dupuytren get their idea's trough, the ships will grow in size rather fast, with the next class up to 33000 tons. Light.
I echo the wonder at nations doing 10,000 ton jumps in design displacement in one shot. Its 1906 and a 28,000 ton ship looks a little out of the range in my opinion. This would send us down the path to Tillman Battleships type ships.
Michael
You could call it overreacting. But France did not build any major warship in the last 6 years, only the Debacle Greater Napoleon and the successor Napoleon the Great. And that one was a half build hulk for the better part of 2 years. Just now it's getting finished (need to find a purpose for the ordered, but not used VTE's for this ship)
In the mean while, all over the world ships of 22000 tons and bigger appear. France, always been in love with Bigger is Better doesn't have much of an option to build larger. But is also in dire need of more hulls in the water. The premisse was for this class of BB that the 4 Formidables would go off the list of active ships.
OOC, these vessels, even individualy seeming all powerfull, are diminishing the French fleet.
It will take at least 10 quarters to build this monster, 2.5 years, and more like 4 years, knowing the French.
Battleships are starting to approach the size of passenger liners laid down 5 years ago. So what? Shipyards has the experience to build large ships, and has the experience to build somewhat smaller battleships. Then come the question of quality vs. quantity.
*Puts on helmet and hides in foxhole*
I'd call it the player's urge to build really big ships... especially since he can afford it. :)
Seriously, below you'll see the various tonnage marks being crossed by various nations historically. Looking at that list, I would say that a warship with a normal dispacement exceeding 30,000 tons is out of place at the moment... but that is my opinion.
Note that most of the displacements are taken from Jane's WW1 book and those displacements are normal displacement. The 'more modern' ships were taken from the Warships1 archive. Also these ships are those that were built and actually completed.
I have no idea about the Russian warships though. I just quickly looked around. Maybe Olekit would know better.
I could be wrong about the various ships so feel free to correct me.
UK
20,000+ => Colossus (1909-1911)
25,000+ => Lion (1909-1912)
30,000+ => Nelson (1922-1927)
German
20,000+ => Thueringen (1908-1911)
25,000+ => Derfflinger (1912-1914)
30,000+ => Gneisenau (1935-1938)
USA
20,000+ => Utah (1909-1911)
25,000+ => Arkansas (1910-1912)
30,000+ => Pennsylvania (1913-1916)
Japan
20,000+ => Settsu (1909-1912)
25,000+ => Kongo (1911-1913)
30,000+ => Fuso (1912-1915)
France
20,000+ => Jean Bart (1910-1913)
25,000+ => Dunkerque (1932-1937)
30,000+ => Richelieu (1935-1940)
Italian
20,000+ => Dante Alighieri (1909-1912)
25,000+ => Vittorio Veneto (1934-1940)
30,000+ => Vittorio Veneto (1934-1940)
Russian
20,000+ => Gangut (1909-1914)
25,000+ => No idea, probably Kiev (1970-1975)
30,000+ => No idea, probably Kiev (1970-1975)
Ok Walter, I'll start building a balanced, very usefull and aggresive French Fleet, led by competent admirals; not moneygrabbing politicians.
Quote from: maddox on April 05, 2007, 12:04:45 PM
Ok Walter, I'll start building a balanced, very usefull and aggresive French Fleet, led by competent admirals; not moneygrabbing politicians.
Shhhhhh!
Don't listen to him.! Keep building those white ele... er, monuments to the greatness of France!
Walter,
Maddox is building ships for flavor rather than perfection in capabilities. I've got a couple of those kinds of ships planned myself. one is an excellent cruiser that's not really able to cruise because she isn't the most seaworthy ship out there. I already built a ship that's nothing but a floating radio station thats largely useless except for RP fodder. In fact, it's upkeep was only $0.00525... didn't impact my budget at all.
These might not be the best kinds of ships to build, but they are the kind that real countries would build.
Geez, Walter, now look what ya done.
I did say that that is my opinion. If you want to build that monstrosity glorious 30,000 ton ship, then go ahead. :)
From hazegray, ship size increase looks like this:
(laying down dates)
UK
1905: 18000 (Dreadnought)
1909: 26000 (Lion)
1916: 40000 (Hood)
1921: 48000 (G3/N3)
Germany
1907: 18000
1909: 24000
1915: 30000
1919: 44000
Japan
1909: 20000
1912: 30000
1920: 40000
Basically a 2000t/year increase in capital ship displacement in 1905-1920.
A young guy, sitting in a bar in Brest, drinking himself to a stupor. Again, his plan for a battleship that is capable , affordable and to build with the current French materials is denied because a lack of grandeur.
A grey haired straight spined blue eyed uniformed man comes in the bar and sees a glimps of the drawings.....
QuoteValeur, French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
16.515 t light; 17.447 t standard; 19.104 t normal; 20.429 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
498,69 ft / 492,13 ft x 88,58 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
152,00 m / 150,00 m x 27,00 m x 8,50 m
Armament:
6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns in single mounts, 137,06lbs / 62,17kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
18 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1903 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
4 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9.489 lbs / 4.304 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 319,88 ft / 97,50 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Ends: 8,00" / 203 mm 172,21 ft / 52,49 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 319,88 ft / 97,50 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 32,00 ft / 9,75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 9,00" / 229 mm
2nd: 8,00" / 203 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2,50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22.998 shp / 17.157 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2.982 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
812 - 1.056
Cost:
£1,735 million / $6,941 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.186 tons, 6,2%
Armour: 7.303 tons, 38,2%
- Belts: 3.240 tons, 17,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 710 tons, 3,7%
- Armament: 1.776 tons, 9,3%
- Armour Deck: 1.407 tons, 7,4%
- Conning Tower: 169 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.150 tons, 6,0%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.776 tons, 35,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.589 tons, 13,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26.905 lbs / 12.204 Kg = 22,4 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 5,5 ft / 1,7 m
Roll period: 15,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,50
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,56 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,90 ft / 8,20 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (15,52 ft / 4,73 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 15,52 ft / 4,73 m
- Stern: 15,52 ft / 4,73 m
- Average freeboard: 17,69 ft / 5,39 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119,1%
Waterplane Area: 30.424 Square feet or 2.826 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 779 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,94
- Longitudinal: 1,94
- Overall: 1,01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Its reasonable, Nooooo!!!
France does have enough advanced 1909 turbines to build a core of 13 of these ships..... (3 turbines are in the Napoleon the Great)
Happily, at that precise moment, a bar wench of Gran Colombian descent conveniently spills a tankard of dark ale on the drawings...
I do like the battlecruiser version of Valeur.
QuoteGalope, French Large Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
15.346 t light; 16.139 t standard; 17.715 t normal; 18.975 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
498,69 ft / 492,13 ft x 88,58 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
152,00 m / 150,00 m x 27,00 m x 8,50 m
Armament:
6 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865,70lbs / 392,68kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns in single mounts, 137,06lbs / 62,17kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
18 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1903 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
4 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7.487 lbs / 3.396 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9,00" / 229 mm 319,88 ft / 97,50 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Ends: 6,00" / 152 mm 172,21 ft / 52,49 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Upper: 6,00" / 152 mm 319,88 ft / 97,50 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 32,00 ft / 9,75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9,00" / 229 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 9,00" / 229 mm
2nd: 6,00" / 152 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 9,00" / 229 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48.022 shp / 35.825 Kw = 24,50 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2.836 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
767 - 998
Cost:
£1,659 million / $6,638 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 936 tons, 5,3%
Armour: 5.725 tons, 32,3%
- Belts: 2.544 tons, 14,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 474 tons, 2,7%
- Armament: 1.492 tons, 8,4%
- Armour Deck: 1.085 tons, 6,1%
- Conning Tower: 132 tons, 0,7%
Machinery: 2.401 tons, 13,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.183 tons, 34,9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.369 tons, 13,4%
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20.701 lbs / 9.390 Kg = 23,9 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 3,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,22
Metacentric height 6,0 ft / 1,8 m
Roll period: 15,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,510
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,56 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (15,52 ft / 4,73 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 15,52 ft / 4,73 m
- Stern: 15,52 ft / 4,73 m
- Average freeboard: 17,63 ft / 5,38 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109,3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121,5%
Waterplane Area: 29.312 Square feet or 2.723 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 733 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 1,89
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Way too heavy secondaries for my taste. Although most countries are apparently content with 5-6kyds fighting distance, so it does make some sense.
Considering how few of us actually have real fire control at this date, it makes sense we expect to fight in close and dirty.
That's my point exactly.
Ahoj!
Looking at the plans, von Fernseher, the Habsburg Naval Atache, says "Ya, Junge, guttes dravings. Now, trink some more, ya? Ay veel vipe ze plans dry on the skirt of ze Sudamerikaner madeln ... "
Going by those upper and side belts, I'd recommend upping the Secondaries into Second Main Calibre guns, of whatever queer calibre France uses in the 8-10 inch range.
I thus change my advice for Rohan - go with 6x14" plus 8-12x9".
Borys
It is just a fast one , based on valeur, just changed the 340mm for 305mm guns, to get weight and space for the turbines.
A bit of toying and cutting into cruise speed ,less and smaller secundaries remove and then you get this cheap monster
Galope, French Large Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
QuoteDisplacement:
15.816 t light; 16.635 t standard; 17.715 t normal; 18.578 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
498,69 ft / 492,13 ft x 88,58 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
152,00 m / 150,00 m x 27,00 m x 8,50 m
Armament:
6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1903 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
4 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8.160 lbs / 3.702 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9,00" / 229 mm 319,88 ft / 97,50 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Ends: 6,00" / 152 mm 172,21 ft / 52,49 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Upper: 6,00" / 152 mm 319,88 ft / 97,50 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 32,00 ft / 9,75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9,00" / 229 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 9,00" / 229 mm
2nd: 6,00" / 152 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 9,00" / 229 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48.022 shp / 35.825 Kw = 24,50 kts
Range 6.000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.944 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
767 - 998
Cost:
£1,747 million / $6,986 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.020 tons, 5,8%
Armour: 5.682 tons, 32,1%
- Belts: 2.544 tons, 14,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 474 tons, 2,7%
- Armament: 1.449 tons, 8,2%
- Armour Deck: 1.085 tons, 6,1%
- Conning Tower: 132 tons, 0,7%
Machinery: 2.401 tons, 13,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.663 tons, 37,6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.898 tons, 10,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0,3%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19.589 lbs / 8.885 Kg = 16,3 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 3,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
Metacentric height 5,6 ft / 1,7 m
Roll period: 15,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,510
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,56 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (15,52 ft / 4,73 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 15,52 ft / 4,73 m
- Stern: 15,52 ft / 4,73 m
- Average freeboard: 17,63 ft / 5,38 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121,5%
Waterplane Area: 29.312 Square feet or 2.723 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 790 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,94
- Longitudinal: 1,99
- Overall: 1,02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ahoj!
Not enough armour. I'm afraid your belt is close to be vulnerable to 8-10 inch shells at 5000 yards.
Even with no pentration, you'll have splinters flying.
Borys
Borys, these fast ships are just cariations on the "French common sence". We can't have that, can't we?
The 24 kts large or armored cruisers are at best second class battleships.
QuoteGalope, French armored cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
16.040 t light; 16.809 t standard; 17.898 t normal; 18.770 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
501,62 ft / 492,13 ft x 85,30 ft x 27,23 ft (normal load)
152,89 m / 150,00 m x 26,00 m x 8,30 m
Armament:
4 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (4x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1903 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
4 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7.043 lbs / 3.195 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9,00" / 229 mm 319,88 ft / 97,50 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Ends: 8,00" / 203 mm 172,21 ft / 52,49 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 319,88 ft / 97,50 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 32,00 ft / 9,75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9,00" / 229 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 9,00" / 229 mm
2nd: 8,00" / 203 mm 6,00" / 152 mm 8,00" / 203 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 45.032 shp / 33.594 Kw = 24,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.961 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
773 - 1.005
Cost:
£1,616 million / $6,465 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 880 tons, 4,9%
Armour: 6.293 tons, 35,2%
- Belts: 2.911 tons, 16,3%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 474 tons, 2,6%
- Armament: 1.664 tons, 9,3%
- Armour Deck: 1.082 tons, 6,0%
- Conning Tower: 162 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 2.252 tons, 12,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.565 tons, 36,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.858 tons, 10,4%
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0,3%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21.550 lbs / 9.775 Kg = 18,0 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 3,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
Metacentric height 4,7 ft / 1,4 m
Roll period: 16,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,548
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,77 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (15,52 ft / 4,73 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 15,52 ft / 4,73 m
- Stern: 15,52 ft / 4,73 m
- Average freeboard: 18,65 ft / 5,69 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125,7%
Waterplane Area: 29.242 Square feet or 2.717 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 769 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 1,92
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ahoj!
Yes, AC.
Borys
Now remember kids, the armored cruisers don't have the best gun of the fleet normally (though Invincible, her sisters and the Japanese Kongos did).
Rohan will go with the 8 x 14" and the 12 x 6" for the next normal battleship. Should the sizes and numbers of guns increase radically again, then well the Maek will need to either return to the 9" secondary main batteries, Add a fifth centerline 14" turret (or two wing turrets) or invest in triple 14" turrets. (I see Nevada and Pennsylvania types in the future). Rohan may also need to invest in a longer barrelled 14" guns if they wish to keep the fighting out of secondary ranges. Or attempt to construct a 16" cannon to counter the rumored 15" guns. Rohan does hope this will be a long time before there is need of such a gigantic weapon on a battleship.
Ahoj!
I think that even before the Kongo the Japanese had 12inch armed ACs. Italians too?
Borys
Definitly 10" for the Italians (Pisa, San Marcos), 12" if you consider the Regina Elena et al to be cruisers (they were much more battlecruiser than battleship...).
The Springsharp of the ship talked about in the "Current events" of july 1906.
QuoteValeur, French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
17.489 t light; 18.559 t standard; 20.285 t normal; 21.666 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
498,69 ft / 492,13 ft x 88,58 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
152,00 m / 150,00 m x 27,00 m x 8,50 m
Armament:
6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (6x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
18 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1903 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
12 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11.413 lbs / 5.177 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 320,00 ft / 97,54 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Ends: 8,00" / 203 mm 172,00 ft / 52,43 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 320,00 ft / 97,54 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 500,00 ft / 152,40 m 25,00 ft / 7,62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 9,00" / 229 mm
2nd: 8,00" / 203 mm 5,00" / 127 mm 5,00" / 127 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 24.157 shp / 18.021 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.106 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
849 - 1.104
Cost:
£1,902 million / $7,607 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.334 tons, 6,6%
Armour: 7.402 tons, 36,5%
- Belts: 3.249 tons, 16,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 694 tons, 3,4%
- Armament: 2.121 tons, 10,5%
- Armour Deck: 1.162 tons, 5,7%
- Conning Tower: 176 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.208 tons, 6,0%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.445 tons, 36,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.796 tons, 13,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26.413 lbs / 11.981 Kg = 22,0 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 5,0 ft / 1,5 m
Roll period: 16,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,39
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,584
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,56 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,90 ft / 8,20 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (15,52 ft / 4,73 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 15,52 ft / 4,73 m
- Stern: 15,52 ft / 4,73 m
- Average freeboard: 17,69 ft / 5,39 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117,6%
Waterplane Area: 31.410 Square feet or 2.918 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 834 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 1,93
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Thin armor.
French experiments with the new Herauld Carbonated plate does give the designers confidence that 11" is the equivalent of 14" old style plate.
Saving the weight of the armor gives more speed and firepower on a smaller hull
hmmmm, after a quick session with Springsharp, I've come up with this. Think of the RL Courbet with 4 twin 340mm turrets instead of 6 twin 305mm turrets.
Courbet, France BB laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
18,381 t light; 19,894 t standard; 21,777 t normal; 23,283 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 26.65 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 24.38 m x 8.12 m
Armament:
4 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
18 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
12 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm guns in single mounts, 10.47lbs / 4.75kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12,215 lbs / 5,541 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 12.0" / 305 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.50" / 318 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 24,499 shp / 18,276 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6,200nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,389 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
896 - 1,165
Cost:
£1.994 million / $7.974 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,403 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 7,651 tons, 35.1 %
- Belts: 3,472 tons, 15.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 694 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 2,028 tons, 9.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,247 tons, 5.7 %
- Conning Tower: 210 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,225 tons, 5.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,976 tons, 36.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,396 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,932 lbs / 12,670 Kg = 23.3 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.31
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.59 ft / 5.06 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.3 %
Waterplane Area: 33,707 Square feet or 3,131 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 169 lbs/sq ft or 827 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
It all depends if Premier Paixhans listens to Admiral Geon or not.
Will Glorious France build a few Greater Napoleons, or a fleet of little Valeurs?
Currently, the Napoleon the Great is in the outfitting dock, and the successor, the 28000 tons monster Superbe Lorraine is being layed down.
Yes, the eternal struggle.
EDIT:-
Found I'd put waay to many shells into Courbet, so here's the revised version
Courbet, France BB laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
18,323 t light; 19,621 t standard; 21,777 t normal; 23,502 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 26.65 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 24.38 m x 8.12 m
Armament:
4 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
18 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
12 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm guns in single mounts, 10.47lbs / 4.75kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12,215 lbs / 5,541 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 12.0" / 305 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.50" / 318 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 24,499 shp / 18,276 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,881 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
896 - 1,165
Cost:
£1.992 million / $7.966 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,403 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 7,651 tons, 35.1 %
- Belts: 3,472 tons, 15.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 694 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 2,028 tons, 9.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,247 tons, 5.7 %
- Conning Tower: 210 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,225 tons, 5.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,919 tons, 36.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,453 tons, 15.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28,239 lbs / 12,809 Kg = 23.5 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 4.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.32
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.59 ft / 5.06 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.3 %
Waterplane Area: 33,707 Square feet or 3,131 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 821 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ahoj!
Looks OK.
But I think we should be cautious about wing turrets with over 12 inch guns. As far as I know, none were ever built. I only managed to dig up that British designed Dutch never-were. I've read that the move up from 12 inch to 13,5-14 inch was a factor in the move towards all centerline. So, unless this is an urban legend, I recommend caution. My unease with this arrangement with weak OTL evidence to back it made me overbuilt my warship. And maybe twin or larger wing turrets with guns over 14 should simply be banned?
Borys
@earl822
Premier Paixhans is the man to talk to. Try to convince him to buy more UKA ships.
And your next 4 main turrets will be ready for delivery in HY1 1907. ;)
Borys,
The reason echolon main gun turrets got abandoned is that superfiring became standard. You don't have to fit an extra turret to keep your broadside.
UKA yards are using every BP they have, and those turrets will be gratefully received in the UKA yards, where fitting out will be starting.
With the 2 Valeurs nearing completion, France is ready for the next serie of 2 battleships.
Looking around in the world, noticing that Battleships are getting bigger and bigger, with the brandnew Valeurs tiny, undergunned and underarmored. Also, the rest of the world isn't using large secundaries.
And reports from tests by the BB's with large caliber secundaries gave the naval architects the confidence that a larger main battery augmented with smaller but more numerous secundaries can be accepted by the admirality and politicians.
QuoteMarat/Robbespiere, French Dreadnought laid down 1909
Displacement:
23.759 t light; 25.257 t standard; 27.378 t normal; 29.075 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
564,30 ft / 557,74 ft x 114,83 ft x 26,57 ft (normal load)
172,00 m / 170,00 m x 35,00 m x 8,10 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11.117 lbs / 5.043 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 362,53 ft / 110,50 m 14,00 ft / 4,27 m
Ends: 8,00" / 203 mm 195,19 ft / 59,49 m 12,67 ft / 3,86 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 362,53 ft / 110,50 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 500,00 ft / 152,40 m 36,00 ft / 10,97 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 28.628 shp / 21.356 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.818 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1.063 - 1.383
Cost:
£2,184 million / $8,738 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.372 tons, 5,0%
Armour: 10.983 tons, 40,1%
- Belts: 5.204 tons, 19,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 999 tons, 3,6%
- Armament: 2.035 tons, 7,4%
- Armour Deck: 2.511 tons, 9,2%
- Conning Tower: 235 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.431 tons, 5,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.822 tons, 35,9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.619 tons, 13,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47.397 lbs / 21.499 Kg = 39,5 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 10,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
Metacentric height 8,4 ft / 2,6 m
Roll period: 16,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 90 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,31
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,38
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,563
Length to Beam Ratio: 4,86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (15%): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Mid (50%): 17,39 ft / 5,30 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 16,54 ft / 5,04 m
- Stern: 16,54 ft / 5,04 m
- Average freeboard: 17,89 ft / 5,45 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69,3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140,8%
Waterplane Area: 45.245 Square feet or 4.203 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 849 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,55
- Overall: 1,01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The successors of the Valeur class.
The 150 tons misc are mainly a set of Ears and a flag bridge. Of course, crew comfort is important too.
The ommition of the 195mm secundary turrets gave room for a heaver main gun armament. Also, the 195mm turrets are not fast enough to shoot enemy TB's or torpedoboat destroyers; The 16 140mm guns do have the combination of punch and speed of action.
Increase of armor protection, especialy underwater protection was very important in the design. The lessons from the Pacific war are digested.
The 4 70mm QF guns are mounted with defence against the flying spies-airships- in mind.
Very good.
I would make MB 13 inch, and turret face 14 inch, but apart from that I could take it for my fleet.
Borys
The Marat has way too shallow draught and too wide for its length. Reduce beam and perhaps increase draught.
Belt too thick, turret armor too thin.
The shallow draft and the beam are typical French solutions to the "Torpedo Problem".
But the changed version.
QuoteMarat/Robbespiere, French Dreadnought laid down 1909
Displacement:
23.419 t light; 24.909 t standard; 26.992 t normal; 28.660 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
564,30 ft / 557,74 ft x 108,27 ft x 27,79 ft (normal load)
172,00 m / 170,00 m x 33,00 m x 8,47 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11.117 lbs / 5.043 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 362,53 ft / 110,50 m 14,00 ft / 4,27 m
Ends: 8,00" / 203 mm 195,19 ft / 59,49 m 12,67 ft / 3,86 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 362,53 ft / 110,50 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 500,00 ft / 152,40 m 36,00 ft / 10,97 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 12,0" / 305 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 28.028 shp / 20.909 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.751 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1.052 - 1.368
Cost:
£2,168 million / $8,673 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.372 tons, 5,1%
Armour: 10.980 tons, 40,7%
- Belts: 4.718 tons, 17,5%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 999 tons, 3,7%
- Armament: 2.605 tons, 9,7%
- Armour Deck: 2.368 tons, 8,8%
- Conning Tower: 291 tons, 1,1%
Machinery: 1.401 tons, 5,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.515 tons, 35,2%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.574 tons, 13,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
45.676 lbs / 20.718 Kg = 38,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 10,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
Metacentric height 7,8 ft / 2,4 m
Roll period: 16,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,40
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,563
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (15%): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Mid (50%): 17,39 ft / 5,30 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 16,54 ft / 5,04 m
- Stern: 16,54 ft / 5,04 m
- Average freeboard: 17,89 ft / 5,45 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134,2%
Waterplane Area: 42.660 Square feet or 3.963 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 846 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,95
- Longitudinal: 1,56
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Artists impression of the desing "DeCreme". A successor to
Sup, aheum, Chanson.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/RandalthorPK/monster2-1.gif)
Data placeholder
Quote*
thanks for the drawing Tanthalas
Not ugly enough.
A and Y are way too close to the ends, B and X should be superfiring to save space and move them more amidships.
The ugly comment I can support.
But the superfiring turrets. Not in this ship.Thanthalas is reworking her.
The official stats from the design bureau.
QuoteDeCreme, French Glorious Dreadnaught laid down 1910
Displacement:
32.263 t light; 34.188 t standard; 37.902 t normal; 40.874 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
728,35 ft / 721,78 ft x 121,39 ft x 27,33 ft (normal load)
222,00 m / 220,00 m x 37,00 m x 8,33 m
Armament:
10 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (5x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1910 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
5 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
10 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13.671 lbs / 6.201 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 469,16 ft / 143,00 m 13,22 ft / 4,03 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 252,60 ft / 76,99 m 13,22 ft / 4,03 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 469,16 ft / 143,00 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 469,16 ft / 143,00 m 27,17 ft / 8,28 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 12,0" / 305 mm 15,0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
4th: 1,00" / 25 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 46.174 shp / 34.446 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6.686 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1.357 - 1.765
Cost:
£2,843 million / $11,371 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.690 tons, 4,5%
Armour: 13.998 tons, 36,9%
- Belts: 5.904 tons, 15,6%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 707 tons, 1,9%
- Armament: 3.615 tons, 9,5%
- Armour Deck: 3.406 tons, 9,0%
- Conning Tower: 365 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 2.099 tons, 5,5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.276 tons, 37,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.639 tons, 14,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
74.537 lbs / 33.810 Kg = 62,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 14,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,25
Metacentric height 10,1 ft / 3,1 m
Roll period: 16,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,30
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,554
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,95 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32,15 ft / 9,80 m
- Forecastle (20%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (50%): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Stern: 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Average freeboard: 20,55 ft / 6,26 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64,6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167,0%
Waterplane Area: 61.378 Square feet or 5.702 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 902 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,99
- Longitudinal: 1,15
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
No dazzle camo? LOL ;D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage)
only because i refuse to paint it I dont wana go blind
This better P3D?.
End On fire is reduced. But lay out improved.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/RandalthorPK/monster4.gif)
Thanks to Tanthalas, again.
Now is ungainly, lol.... Plus no longer kill admiral if Y turret fire directly aft
ADDED LATER: Could do Truinfante side by side bow and make X and Q en echelon amidships. Same # turrets and guns, better fire if chasing, less broadside though.
Ahoj!
I don't like the arrangment of either. I partly agree with Sachmle - Berta and Felix should be crossdecking, en echelon, amidships. Anton - alone fore, and Dora and Emil should be back to back aft.
Borys
Sometimes common sense wins over style. Sometimes....
Quote from: maddox on December 06, 2007, 02:01:52 AM
This better P3D?.
End On fire is reduced. But lay out improved.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/RandalthorPK/monster4.gif)
Thanks to Tanthalas, again.
B&D turrets will have horrible firing arcs, considering the spacing of the turrets i think that 90-100 degrees on each beam is the best that can be hoped for.
And i think the ship is over-armoured; there are no guns in existence that motivates that much armour. If (unlikely considering the tech of the day) the plate offer full protection for its thickness, it will stop a 38cm AP shell at around 20hm, and smaller shells at even shorter range.
It would be possible to reduce the main belt with 10%, and not suffer any real loss in protection, the saved weight could be used to make the belt deeper.
Go with the first version, Maddox.
So it's a bit cramped, and the turret placement for 1 & 5 are as close to the ends as some pre-dreads. If there is technically enough room for engines, then I'd say 'build it like that.'
I LIKE the lack of superfiring- it gives the ship character. It's not trying to be an uber-ship... just the biggest of the big, fitting right in with France's general desige to be 'Glorious' in all ways.
Sometimes, designing the BEST ship gets confused with designing the PERFECT one.
Actualy, there seems to be a matter of size/perspective.
All the 6 centerline turreted ships I have found- albeit superfiring- weren't as long as the DeCreme with its 220m.
They got all 6 turrets on, and with a larger superstructure than this Glorious design.
Even Agincourt achived 7 turrets in a useable lay out.
************************************************************************************
In the end, I think it will be a combination of the 2 drawings.
Fun idea
Side profile 2 smokestacks, but in effect having 4, with 2 side by side stacks (like the Majestics)
Quote from: maddox on December 06, 2007, 07:21:55 AM
Actualy, there seems to be a matter of size/perspective.
All the 6 centerline turreted ships I have found- albeit superfiring- weren't as long as the DeCreme with its 220m.
They got all 6 turrets on, and with a larger superstructure than this Glorious design.
************************************************************************************
In the end, I think it will be a combination of the 2 drawings.
Fun idea
Side profile 2 smokestacks, but in effect having 4, with 2 side by side stacks (like the Majestics)
The limiting factor is not the length of the ship, it is the length of the belt, as it is taken for granted that you want all the main gun inside the main belt. Superfiring will save at least 20-30m of belt.
QuoteEven Agincourt achived 7 turrets in a useable lay out.
She also had a belt covering around 75% of her waterline lenght.
Quote from: Korpen on December 06, 2007, 07:34:17 AM
Quote from: MaddoxEven Agincourt achived 7 turrets in a useable lay out.
She also had a belt covering around 75% of her waterline lenght.
And it was still to short. The belt only continues to the middle of the barbette of Sunday turret. Also, she has to superfiring turrets, if they were all on deck the belt would have to cover the whole damn ship
Quote from: Korpen on December 06, 2007, 07:34:17 AMThe limiting factor is not the length of the ship, it is the length of the belt, as it is taken for granted that you want all the main gun inside the main belt. Superfiring will save at least 20-30m of belt.
Korpen... bluntly, what if he DOESN'T WANT to save that weight?
I mean, he's designed a good ship, and the art isn't actually to scale. Lots of room for error as to whether or not the drawing there is actually giving you a good impression as to what it looks like. SS might not be perfect, but it asumes that the turrets will fit; if it's good enough that way, it's good enough for the game, I guess.
If we knew the EXACT length of, asy, the British 15" turret, we could see if this would fit.
Anyone here know that or have a site we can use to find it?
Quote from: Korpen on December 06, 2007, 07:34:17 AMQuoteEven Agincourt achived 7 turrets in a useable lay out.
She also had a belt covering around 75% of her waterline lenght.
And this ship has one that covers 65% of her length.
The occupied internal space is considerably shorter than the ship's belt, so it's probably an adequate approximation.
Triunfante's the same way, though I came to the final belt length by measuring pixels in my drawing of the ship.
A British 13.5" twin from Iron Duke is according to my messurments 20.3 m long
A QE 15" twin isn't much larger with 21.5m. Not surprisingly, as the 15" 42 caliber is based on the 13.5" 45 cal.
Quote from: Carthaginian on December 06, 2007, 08:53:28 AM
Korpen... bluntly, what if he DOESN'T WANT to save that weight?
I mean, he's designed a good ship, and the art isn't actually to scale. Lots of room for error as to whether or not the drawing there is actually giving you a good impression as to what it looks like.
Then he don't. :) It was just a suggestion, and on second thought, i think lengthening the belt would be a better idea then deepening it...
To be a bit harsh, i think a drawing that is totally incorrect is worse then no drawing at all. I might be cursing in the church now; but I think the primary concern of a drawing is to show how the information from springsharp comes together, or not. If the art look good is of secondary concern.
QuoteSS might not be perfect, but it asumes that the turrets will fit; if it's good enough that way, it's good enough for the game, I guess.
The problem is that springsharp do not assume anything, as it has no real concept of how much space things really take on a ship, and this goes for everything, not just guns. This is why springsharp handles situations were volume rather then weight is central pretty badly.
I mean, I can design a 120m long ship with 150 15cm guns in hull casemates, springsharp think that is fine. This is why I see sketches as drawing as so usefull, they work as a reality check.
QuoteIf we knew the EXACT length of, asy, the British 15" turret, we could see if this would fit.
Anyone here know that or have a site we can use to find it?
P3D posted info about diameters in the knowledge base.
But is do not think millimetric accuracy is needed in drawings, but within a meter or around there seems reasonable.
QuoteAnd this ship has one that covers 65% of her length.
Yes, difference is significant.
Quote from: Korpen on December 06, 2007, 09:17:29 AM
QuoteAnd this ship has one that covers 65% of her length.
Yes, difference is significant.
Really?
Using guess-timates provided by Maddox's data, we can say that
Agincourt would have used about 140m+(3m*6)=158m- call it an even 160m- for deckspace taken up by turrets. This would mean aproximately 78% of her hull had to be covered by the belt; that's in line with your quoted figure; it's actually a bit much, because I'm using the 13.5" turret instead of a 12".
Well and good, all her turrets are protected.
I'll use the same formula for Maddox's ship now- (length of turrets)+[(3m 'swing clearance')*(number of turrets-1)]- and see what we come up with. (5x21.5m)+(3m*4)=119.5... call it 120m. Now, 65% of 220m is 143m. Thus, it's a pretty safe bet that- though it's a tight squeeze- all the turrets could fit on centerline with 23m to spare. Not a LOT, but it still can.
So, he COULD build the ship comfortably, if he gave another 10m or so of belt.
Not too far off in the grand scheme of things.
Based on the drawing, the main belt should be 185m long not 143.
SS2 might allow you some design, but if you cannot make a drawing that shows how it could be arranged, then that design should be unfeasible.
The second drawing has ~145m belt, but the turret firing arcs are just prohibitively narrow to be acceptable. The ship would barely have full elevation range in a 90 degrees firing arc. That few hundred tons superfiring costs should be paid, it is about 2% of the ship cost. At least the design is ugly enough ;), although honestly I does not know why anyone could sabotage the French navy by building this ship without raising enough complaints and ridicule within the naval establishment to cancel the ship before laying down.
PLease not the super fiering version PLEASE
I resimmed my earlier Rohirrim battleships based on my drawing after I found out the belts were not long enough to cover the barbettes.
There is no scale on this drawing, but those guns look really big for some reason (QE big). The belts are shown on the drawing as being long enough, but they may not match the SS file.
=P the original drawing was fairly accurate, but that ship is on about revision number 16 or 17, accuracy drops in masive amounts with each revision...
QuoteThanks to Tanthalas, again.
You're
thanking him for that?
I kid, I kid.
It could be worse. Oh yes, it could be worse.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 06, 2007, 04:18:15 PM
You're thanking him for that?
I kid, I kid.
French Navy doctrine takes the ugliness of ship into account for combat strength.
Any spotter looking at those ships will have to make a serious effort keeping an eye on the ship and not faint, therefore reducing spotting accuracy at the critical first salvoes. This effect is similar to that of the dazzle camouflage, only it also works for stereoscopic rangefinders.
At short ranges it works as well, affecting all the enemy crew looking at the ship (sanity rolls etc).
Quote from: P3D on December 06, 2007, 04:45:33 PM
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 06, 2007, 04:18:15 PM
You're thanking him for that?
I kid, I kid.
French Navy doctrine takes the ugliness of ship into account for combat strength.
Any spotter looking at those ships will have to make a serious effort keeping an eye on the ship and not faint, therefore reducing spotting accuracy at the critical first salvoes. This effect is similar to that of the dazzle camouflage, only it also works for stereoscopic rangefinders.
At short ranges it works as well, affecting all the enemy crew looking at the ship (sanity rolls etc).
Note to self: Only put Officers and men with a SAN of at least 25 on rangfinding and spotting duties vs the French...
But i do not really finds the ship THAT ugly, but then again, i think most french pre-dreads look cool...
Quote from: Korpen on December 06, 2007, 04:49:36 PM
Note to self: Only put Officers and men with a SAN of at least 25 on rangfinding and spotting duties vs the French...
Or select ones with 0 sanity who developed a mania for accurate spotting.
On an unrelated comment, why would you think that the capital of Maoria is not called Ralieh (one of the several alternative spellings)? Two completely unrelated maps follows.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/R%27lyeh_map.png/776px-R%27lyeh_map.png)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/ithekro/navalism1906h.gif)
Redrawn, for about the 500th time...
Scale is 1 pix = 1 foot
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/RandalthorPK/Monster4-1.gif)
YAY it all fit
It is getting uglier as well. The huge stock-like tower seems French to me.
And what is this map question business about? I don't understand the question.
Even Cthulhu himself would fail a sanity check on that thing.
Thus, I can say for certain that it's appropriately styled for a French ship.
The fore superstructure and the spotting tower are perfect... like a scaled-up version of the hideousness that was the French pre-dreadnought 'face.'
Still say more the superstructure forward and make "B" turret amidships en echolon w/ "Q". Come, ya know ya wanna! ;D
Jedi mind trick: DO IT DO IT DO IT
Quote from: Sachmle on December 06, 2007, 10:37:30 PM
Still say more the superstructure forward and make "B" turret amidships en echolon w/ "Q". Come, ya know ya wanna! ;D
Jedi mind trick: DO IT DO IT DO IT
But if you moved 'B' turret, it wouldn't be 'B' turret anymore, and thus he couldn't move it because you can't move something that isn't there anymore, because...
See how sticky that line of reasoning can get... even under the new Saga rules, that Mind Trick would probably be a DC40 or so. ;)
Remember Neo, there is no spoon....................... ;D
ha i win im Not fooled see im Jabba
U sound happy to be a giant. gluttonus slob w/ bad breath. LOL
IR I GOTS ALL DEH MONIES ^.^
Didn't Jabba get fed to a giant sand worm?
nope chocked to death by a HOTTIE
Ahoj!
There was a half-crazy (or just short of raving mad) author called Lovecraft. His vision for the world included very, very Evil ASB. Called Cthulu etc.
Borys
Quote from: P3D on December 06, 2007, 05:49:19 PM
Quote from: Korpen on December 06, 2007, 04:49:36 PM
Note to self: Only put Officers and men with a SAN of at least 25 on rangfinding and spotting duties vs the French...
Or select ones with 0 sanity who developed a mania for accurate spotting.
On an unrelated comment, why would you think that the capital of Maoria is not called Ralieh (one of the several alternative spellings)? Two completely unrelated maps follows.
That explains so much...
Tell me, does maories have the Innsmouth look?
Quote from: Tanthalas on December 06, 2007, 06:40:40 PM
Redrawn, for about the 500th time...
Scale is 1 pix = 1 foot
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/RandalthorPK/Monster4-1.gif
YAY it all fit
I like her :)
Some might call her ugly, but i think she just look feisty.
I'll just say it's definately French. Now whether that's good or bad is up to you.
Just for referance... Gaulius my new 9X 14" bb with DeCreme
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/RandalthorPK/DeCremeandGaulius.gif)
Hello,
Love that pic gives a true idea as to the scale. Awesome ships. Decremes a beaut.
:-[
The idea was to build an ugly ship, not a beauty.
A proposal of a yard. 3 of these to replace the 6 Republiques.
QuoteGannef, French Cuirassier Tres Rapide laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
21.247 t light; 22.520 t standard; 25.120 t normal; 27.200 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
688,98 ft / 688,98 ft x 98,43 ft x 27,07 ft (normal load)
210,00 m / 210,00 m x 30,00 m x 8,25 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
18 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12.291 lbs / 5.575 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8,00" / 203 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Ends: 3,00" / 76 mm 241,12 ft / 73,49 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Upper: 3,00" / 76 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0,75" / 19 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 22,55 ft / 6,87 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8,00" / 203 mm 4,00" / 102 mm 8,00" / 203 mm
2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 74.544 shp / 55.610 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 9.800nm at 13,50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.680 tons
Complement:
996 - 1.296
Cost:
£2,542 million / $10,166 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.393 tons, 5,5%
Armour: 6.073 tons, 24,2%
- Belts: 2.613 tons, 10,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 280 tons, 1,1%
- Armament: 1.392 tons, 5,5%
- Armour Deck: 1.641 tons, 6,5%
- Conning Tower: 148 tons, 0,6%
Machinery: 2.972 tons, 11,8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.509 tons, 41,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.873 tons, 15,4%
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,2%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31.948 lbs / 14.491 Kg = 26,6 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
Metacentric height 6,8 ft / 2,1 m
Roll period: 15,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,479
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (50%): 17,72 ft / 5,40 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 18,96 ft / 5,78 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,3%
Waterplane Area: 44.339 Square feet or 4.119 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 854 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,25
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
QuoteArmour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8,00" / 203 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Ends: 3,00" / 76 mm 241,12 ft / 73,49 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Upper: 3,00" / 76 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
1* Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2* 0,75" / 19 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 22,55 ft / 6,87 m
1* Oops.
2* Pointless IMO
Agreed. I think the block coefficient is rather low for a 21,000 t ship, too.
Otherwise, probably a reasonable Dutch-style BC.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on July 10, 2008, 07:49:15 PM
Otherwise, probably a reasonable Dutch-style BC.
So is there Dutch and Iberian style BC's? ;)
Got to agree that the Torpedo Defense is questionable. Its beamer than, my BC by a good 4 feet but that TBD is thin and not fully covering the mags / engines is also bad.
Michael
Quote from: miketr on July 10, 2008, 08:11:43 PM
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on July 10, 2008, 07:49:15 PM
Otherwise, probably a reasonable Dutch-style BC.
So is there Dutch and Iberian style BC's? ;)
Michael
I'd say so. There are similarities, but also some sizable differences. I also notice the Rohan and Gran Columbian Battle cruisers as slightly different from the others. See the post I'll make shortly on the different Amoured Cruisers/Amoured Frigates/Battlecruisers/whatever the hell people call them in the General Naval Thread. ;)
Increased length of belt armor and torpedo bulkhead as well thickness of that to 1".
To compensate for the weight increase, I diminished the main armor from 8 to 7",and played a bit with cruising speed and range.
To get the ship down to 21Ktons, I had to leave out 10 shells per main gun.
QuoteGannef, French Cuirassier Tres Rapide laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
21.001 t light; 22.204 t standard; 25.120 t normal; 27.453 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
688,98 ft / 688,98 ft x 98,43 ft x 27,07 ft (normal load)
210,00 m / 210,00 m x 30,00 m x 8,25 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
18 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12.291 lbs / 5.575 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7,00" / 178 mm 500,00 ft / 152,40 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
Ends: 3,00" / 76 mm 188,68 ft / 57,51 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
Upper: 3,00" / 76 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 112% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 500,00 ft / 152,40 m 23,00 ft / 7,01 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,00" / 178 mm 4,00" / 102 mm 8,00" / 203 mm
2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7,00" / 178 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 74.544 shp / 55.610 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 10.200nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.249 tons
Complement:
996 - 1.296
Cost:
£2,532 million / $10,129 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.393 tons, 5,5%
Armour: 5.867 tons, 23,4%
- Belts: 2.307 tons, 9,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 426 tons, 1,7%
- Armament: 1.365 tons, 5,4%
- Armour Deck: 1.641 tons, 6,5%
- Conning Tower: 129 tons, 0,5%
Machinery: 2.972 tons, 11,8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.469 tons, 41,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.119 tons, 16,4%
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,2%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32.274 lbs / 14.639 Kg = 26,9 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
Metacentric height 7,0 ft / 2,1 m
Roll period: 15,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,479
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (50%): 17,72 ft / 5,40 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 18,96 ft / 5,78 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,3%
Waterplane Area: 44.339 Square feet or 4.119 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 850 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,26
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ahoj!
Looks like a nice AC. And it must have a distinct appearance. At the same time it is beamy, as to carry those quads, but with very low BC. Thus the turrets are as far as possible from the stem and stern. So I imagine a very short citadel in the centre of the ship. Maybe even a queer arrngement of turret, bridge, boilers/stacks, maybe one set of turbines, turret, either all, or part of turbines. Or a licensed electric drive, again with part of the powerplant AFT of the Y turret.
Jeftge, what says you?
Maybe worth posting at Warship Projects, with such an inquiry?
Borys
Ahoj!
I checked an old post by P3D, who kindly listed various barbette diameters, and found the figure of 39' for the 34cm quad.
Borys
4 twin turrets not two quads, Borys.
I'd reduce the beam, perhaps add a bit length, fill the displacement to get 80,000SHP, then thicken the armor. The ship must face 12-14" guns on enemy BCs.
Or shorten the ship, reduce beam, keeping 80,000SHP in mind, and add armor. Would make a lighter ship.
Compare to the Holland BC on 25,000t.
Oh, so I ran off after a red herring after missreading the file?
:D
Four twins is OK.
Borys
Took the changes proposed by P3D in account. Lenghtened the ship to the max in the class 3 yards.
Uparmored it to the Valeur thickness of armor.
Slimmed it down, and increased BC, gained 2Ktons.
QuoteGannef, French Cuirassier Tres Rapide laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
23.006 t light; 24.244 t standard; 27.447 t normal; 30.010 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721,78 ft / 721,78 ft x 91,86 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
220,00 m / 220,00 m x 28,00 m x 8,00 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12.108 lbs / 5.492 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 500,00 ft / 152,40 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
Ends: 5,00" / 127 mm 188,68 ft / 57,51 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
33,10 ft / 10,09 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5,00" / 127 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 107% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 500,00 ft / 152,40 m 23,00 ft / 7,01 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 4,00" / 102 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7,00" / 178 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78.992 shp / 58.928 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 10.500nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.766 tons
Complement:
1.066 - 1.386
Cost:
£2,617 million / $10,467 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.372 tons, 5,0%
Armour: 7.656 tons, 27,9%
- Belts: 3.706 tons, 13,5%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 426 tons, 1,6%
- Armament: 1.672 tons, 6,1%
- Armour Deck: 1.715 tons, 6,2%
- Conning Tower: 137 tons, 0,5%
Machinery: 3.150 tons, 11,5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.579 tons, 38,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.441 tons, 16,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 0,9%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36.357 lbs / 16.491 Kg = 30,3 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
Metacentric height 5,9 ft / 1,8 m
Roll period: 15,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,552
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (50%): 17,72 ft / 5,40 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 18,96 ft / 5,78 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150,7%
Waterplane Area: 46.361 Square feet or 4.307 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 166 lbs/sq ft or 812 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,99
- Longitudinal: 1,02
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
A bit more miscellaneous weight - for stuff other than Fire Control - might be wise, but othewise, it's looking pretty good.
To keep her seakeeping and stability ok, I had to reduce beam even more, increase BC, but gained a bit of leeway to spend on the misc weight, like 170 tons extra.
She's still reasonably armored for her class, the speed is ridiculously high for a French ship,and the main battery is nothing to triffle with.
QuoteGannef, French Cuirassier Tres Rapide laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
22.897 t light; 24.132 t standard; 27.330 t normal; 29.888 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721,78 ft / 721,78 ft x 88,58 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
220,00 m / 220,00 m x 27,00 m x 8,00 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12.108 lbs / 5.492 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 500,00 ft / 152,40 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
Ends: 5,00" / 127 mm 188,68 ft / 57,51 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
33,10 ft / 10,09 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5,00" / 127 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 107% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 500,00 ft / 152,40 m 23,00 ft / 7,01 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 4,00" / 102 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7,00" / 178 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78.936 shp / 58.886 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 10.500nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.756 tons
Complement:
1.062 - 1.381
Cost:
£2,612 million / $10,449 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.372 tons, 5,0%
Armour: 7.615 tons, 27,9%
- Belts: 3.699 tons, 13,5%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 426 tons, 1,6%
- Armament: 1.672 tons, 6,1%
- Armour Deck: 1.682 tons, 6,2%
- Conning Tower: 137 tons, 0,5%
Machinery: 3.147 tons, 11,5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.343 tons, 37,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.433 tons, 16,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 420 tons, 1,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35.033 lbs / 15.891 Kg = 29,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
Metacentric height 5,4 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 16,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,68
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,570
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (50%): 17,72 ft / 5,40 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 18,96 ft / 5,78 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148,4%
Waterplane Area: 45.467 Square feet or 4.224 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 164 lbs/sq ft or 799 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,00
- Longitudinal: 1,00
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Any chance someone could post the link to the post about barbette diameter from P3D that Borys found for us new guys?
Nevermind, I found it:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=727.msg13999#msg13999
Ahoj!
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=727.msg13999#msg13999
Here you are.
Borys
Much better.
The battleships after the Marat, not GBB's of 35Ktons+, but more affordable ships of 25Ktons.
QuoteAlpine/Pyrénées, French Battleship laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
24.198 t light; 26.026 t standard; 28.753 t normal; 30.934 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 95,14 ft x 30,18 ft (normal load)
170,00 m / 169,00 m x 29,00 m x 9,20 m
Armament:
4 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.674,25lbs / 759,43kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.674,25lbs / 759,43kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
14 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17.915 lbs / 8.126 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 360,40 ft / 109,85 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 194,04 ft / 59,14 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Upper: 4,00" / 102 mm 360,40 ft / 109,85 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 360,40 ft / 109,85 m 28,41 ft / 8,66 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 29.226 shp / 21.803 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.908 tons (70% coal)
Complement:
1.103 - 1.435
Cost:
£3,193 million / $12,771 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.239 tons, 7,8%
Armour: 9.439 tons, 32,8%
- Belts: 3.518 tons, 12,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 568 tons, 2,0%
- Armament: 2.863 tons, 10,0%
- Armour Deck: 2.206 tons, 7,7%
- Conning Tower: 283 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 1.419 tons, 4,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.701 tons, 37,2%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.555 tons, 15,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,4%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30.705 lbs / 13.928 Kg = 18,3 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 5,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 5,5 ft / 1,7 m
Roll period: 17,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,632
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Mid (50%): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 15,31 ft / 4,67 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99,5%
Waterplane Area: 39.748 Square feet or 3.693 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 202 lbs/sq ft or 987 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,95
- Longitudinal: 1,54
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Powerful, but I'd prefer something with more freeboard.
With more freeboard stability is ruined.
With the freeboard you have - the mountain of a forecastle notwithstanding - your forward turrets may be quite wet.
Do you think there's room for five centreline, deck-level 15" turrets on a ship of that size?
5 turrets , don't think so , she's short, 170m oa, to fit in a type 2 dock.
And if I have to use a Type 3 dock to build her, I can do a 5x3 15" gunned vessel for 35 ktons, thanks to the low speed requirements of the Marine Nationale.
QuotePaixhans, French GBB laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
34.666 t light; 37.370 t standard; 40.940 t normal; 43.797 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
662,73 ft / 656,17 ft x 111,55 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
202,00 m / 200,00 m x 34,00 m x 9,00 m
Armament:
15 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (5x3 guns), 1.763,70lbs / 800,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
5 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 27.989 lbs / 12.696 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 430,00 ft / 131,06 m 14,00 ft / 4,27 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 200,00 ft / 60,96 m 12,30 ft / 3,75 m
26,17 ft / 7,98 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 6,00" / 152 mm 405,18 ft / 123,50 m 9,00 ft / 2,74 m
Main Belt covers 101% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 480,00 ft / 146,30 m 29,80 ft / 9,08 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 12,0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 35.567 shp / 26.533 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6.427 tons (80% coal)
Complement:
1.438 - 1.870
Cost:
£4,626 million / $18,504 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3.313 tons, 8,1%
Armour: 13.393 tons, 32,7%
- Belts: 5.081 tons, 12,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 794 tons, 1,9%
- Armament: 4.010 tons, 9,8%
- Armour Deck: 3.149 tons, 7,7%
- Conning Tower: 358 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.743 tons, 4,3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.616 tons, 38,1%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.275 tons, 15,3%
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47.273 lbs / 21.442 Kg = 28,2 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 7,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
Metacentric height 7,2 ft / 2,2 m
Roll period: 17,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,663
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25,62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (20%): 17,49 ft / 5,33 m
- Mid (50%): 17,49 ft / 5,33 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 17,49 ft / 5,33 m
- Stern: 17,49 ft / 5,33 m
- Average freeboard: 18,32 ft / 5,58 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,4%
Waterplane Area: 56.741 Square feet or 5.271 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 216 lbs/sq ft or 1.053 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,26
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: maddox on August 18, 2008, 07:50:21 AM
5 turrets , don't think so , she's short, 170m oa, to fit in a type 2 dock.
And if I have to use a Type 3 dock to build her, I can do a 5x3 15" gunned vessel for 35 ktons, thanks to the low speed requirements of the Marine Nationale.
Think one really needs a drawing of such a design, as I have some huge doubts about fitting in five 38cm gun turrets on 130m. After all each barbarette is 10-11m wide, and then just as much for the barrels. That is 80m, with some space for the turrets to rotate, 90-100m at least. That gives one only around 30m for funnel uptakes, superstructure and the deck mounted cassettes. Maybe possible, but I want to see it to believe it.
Length of British 5x2x13,5" battleships
Erin - 560
Orion - 580
KGV - 600
Iron Duke - 620 feet.
Canada - 660
Borys
Quote from: Borys on August 18, 2008, 09:10:50 AM
Length of British 5x2x13,5" battleships
Erin - 560
Orion - 580
KGV - 600
Iron Duke - 620 feet.
Canada - 660
Borys
But those all has superfiring B and X turrets, France doesn't do superfiring on BBs.
Quote from: Borys on August 18, 2008, 09:10:50 AM
Length of British 5x2x13,5" battleships
Erin - 560
Orion - 580
KGV - 600
Iron Duke - 620 feet.
Canada - 660
Borys
Problem as I see it is not the length of the boat, but the length of the belt.
Accepting poor arcs, and no superstructure whatsoever (forget secondaries in anything but hull mounts), it seems it might be done.
(http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/2666/frenchkm7.png)
The image is only accurate about the length of the main belt and size of superstructure and turrets.
Giving her 2 superfiring turrets screws up stability, seakeeping and increases weight with at least 2000 tons, light.
On the other hand, a broadside of 13000kg with good fire-arcs....
QuotePaixhans, French GBB laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
36.780 t light; 39.579 t standard; 43.257 t normal; 46.199 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
695,54 ft / 688,98 ft x 114,83 ft x 30,18 ft (normal load)
212,00 m / 210,00 m x 35,00 m x 9,20 m
Armament:
15 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (5x3 guns), 1.812,20lbs / 822,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
5 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 28.717 lbs / 13.026 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 12,67 ft / 3,86 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 241,12 ft / 73,49 m 12,67 ft / 3,86 m
Upper: 6,00" / 152 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 447,83 ft / 136,50 m 28,45 ft / 8,67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 12,0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 36.048 shp / 26.892 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6.620 tons (80% coal)
Complement:
1.499 - 1.949
Cost:
£4,710 million / $18,841 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3.313 tons, 7,7%
Armour: 13.454 tons, 31,1%
- Belts: 4.664 tons, 10,8%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 707 tons, 1,6%
- Armament: 4.424 tons, 10,2%
- Armour Deck: 3.314 tons, 7,7%
- Conning Tower: 345 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 1.767 tons, 4,1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17.745 tons, 41,0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.477 tons, 15,0%
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,2%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
54.126 lbs / 24.551 Kg = 32,3 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 8,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 7,4 ft / 2,3 m
Roll period: 17,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,634
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (15%): 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
- Mid (50%): 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
- Quarterdeck (10%): 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
- Stern: 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
- Average freeboard: 19,56 ft / 5,96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144,4%
Waterplane Area: 59.721 Square feet or 5.548 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 231 lbs/sq ft or 1.127 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,28
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: Sachmle on August 18, 2008, 10:00:58 AM
Quote from: Borys on August 18, 2008, 09:10:50 AM
Length of British 5x2x13,5" battleships
Erin - 560
Orion - 580
KGV - 600
Iron Duke - 620 feet.
Canada - 660
Borys
But those all has superfiring B and X turrets, France doesn't do superfiring on BBs.
Me bad - I forgot that.
As to stability 1,10, fireplatform 60%, seakeeping 1,21 - MO acceptable. I'd even try to sacrifice some seakeeping for stablity, which then I'd transform into fireplatform.
But like I say - the current result is IMO acceptable.
Borys
With the Baltic plans for a battleship with tripple turrets, Glorious france can't do anything else than trumph that design.
The GBB DeCreme is almost finished, and the slip free. So the successor of her, Paixhans, proudly presented.
Big change is the main guns, in tripple turrets And superfiring.
And the secundary experimental light cruiser based 140mm QF twin mount and hoist.
QuotePaixhans, French GBB laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
38.123 t light; 40.618 t standard; 43.574 t normal; 45.938 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721,78 ft / 715,22 ft x 123,69 ft x 28,22 ft (normal load)
220,00 m / 218,00 m x 37,70 m x 8,60 m
Armament:
12 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 23.600 lbs / 10.705 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 122
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 420,00 ft / 128,02 m 12,86 ft / 3,92 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 290,00 ft / 88,39 m 12,86 ft / 3,92 m
5,22 ft / 1,59 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5,00" / 127 mm 460,00 ft / 140,21 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 90% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 511,81 ft / 156,00 m 27,99 ft / 8,53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm -
4th: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 60.815 shp / 45.368 Kw = 23,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.320 tons
Complement:
1.507 - 1.960
Cost:
£4,325 million / $17,301 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.727 tons, 6,3%
Armour: 13.746 tons, 31,5%
- Belts: 4.808 tons, 11,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 795 tons, 1,8%
- Armament: 4.195 tons, 9,6%
- Armour Deck: 3.628 tons, 8,3%
- Conning Tower: 320 tons, 0,7%
Machinery: 2.425 tons, 5,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18.624 tons, 42,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.451 tons, 12,5%
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,4%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
63.047 lbs / 28.597 Kg = 37,7 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 11,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
Metacentric height 8,4 ft / 2,6 m
Roll period: 17,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,611
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (15%): 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Mid (50%): 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Quarterdeck (10%): 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Stern: 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Average freeboard: 20,79 ft / 6,34 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81,0%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168,1%
Waterplane Area: 65.369 Square feet or 6.073 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 227 lbs/sq ft or 1.110 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,24
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250tons FC
100 tons Ears
150 tons Crew Comfort
100 tons Flag Bridge/large Marconi
I LIKE IT
Me too... ;)
Jef
Named for a living politician? How crass...
No worse than Marius Naming a BB after himself in Italia ^.^ (sometimes you do things to convince the political machine to build it)
Somebody will have to answer for the project name.
But she's just a project on paper, signed to be build, commencing HY 01 1913, to be finished HY 01 1917
Could I suggest to name French BBs with Napoleon's victories...
Jef ;)
Has France developed triple 380 turrets?
At least on paper
Rocky Doc wrote:
"Has France developed triple 380 turrets?"
As I know...no
The design of triple turret was just approved in april 1940 by Admiral Darlan for the Alsace BB project
3T3x380 - ABY - B superfiring
Jef ;)
cant stand the challenge ;D ;D
Paixhans-antidode, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1913
Displacement:
35.707 t light; 37.868 t standard; 40.727 t normal; 43.015 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720,91 ft / 716,86 ft x 108,27 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
219,73 m / 218,50 m x 33,00 m x 9,00 m
Armament:
12 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1.674,25lbs / 759,43kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 21.746 lbs / 9.864 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,8" / 350 mm 536,42 ft / 163,50 m 12,50 ft / 3,81 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 4,92" / 125 mm 536,42 ft / 163,50 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,97" / 50 mm 536,42 ft / 163,50 m 27,30 ft / 8,32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,8" / 350 mm 7,87" / 200 mm 11,8" / 300 mm
2nd: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
3rd: 0,20" / 5 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2,95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 11,81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 78.428 shp / 58.507 Kw = 25,00 kts
Range 7.500nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.147 tons
Complement:
1.433 - 1.863
Cost:
£4,324 million / $17,295 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.718 tons, 6,7 %
Armour: 12.858 tons, 31,6 %
- Belts: 4.807 tons, 11,8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.066 tons, 2,6 %
- Armament: 3.518 tons, 8,6 %
- Armour Deck: 3.165 tons, 7,8 %
- Conning Tower: 301 tons, 0,7 %
Machinery: 3.073 tons, 7,5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16.558 tons, 40,7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.020 tons, 12,3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
51.966 lbs / 23.571 Kg = 31,0 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 8,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
Metacentric height 6,9 ft / 2,1 m
Roll period: 17,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,622
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,62 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (70 %): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Stern: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Average freeboard: 21,02 ft / 6,41 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 163,0 %
Waterplane Area: 57.940 Square feet or 5.383 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 215 lbs/sq ft or 1.051 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,26
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
No, no, no. The Baltic antidote should be a whole bunch of 11"-armed pre-dreadnoughts. Then Glorious France can built a whole bunch of 12"- armed predreadnoughts, and name the whole lot after even more living politicians.
I took a good look at DeCreme in the encyclopaedia, and she is not alright. The problem is similar to the one I pointed out on the design above, not enough deck space to mount the secondaries on deck.
I guess that the 5 centreline 14cm guns are on top of the turrets?
Quote from: Korpen on September 19, 2008, 05:47:58 AM
I took a good look at DeCreme in the encyclopaedia, and she is not alright. The problem is similar to the one I pointed out on the design above, not enough deck space to mount the secondaries on deck.
I guess that the 5 centreline 14cm guns are on top of the turrets?
yes they were, and unless she changed after I drew the pic they actualy all fit (granted its tight in some places)
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 19, 2008, 07:38:52 AM
Quote from: Korpen on September 19, 2008, 05:47:58 AM
I took a good look at DeCreme in the encyclopaedia, and she is not alright. The problem is similar to the one I pointed out on the design above, not enough deck space to mount the secondaries on deck.
I guess that the 5 centreline 14cm guns are on top of the turrets?
yes they were, and unless she changed after I drew the pic they actualy all fit (granted its tight in some places)
No picture.
But a problem with your drawings is that they lack a top view, and when looking at arcs and blast zones they are essential. From a pure side view it is easy to fit stuff, but then one start to take the training arcs from the main battery into account, it get much much harder.
Quote from: Korpen on September 19, 2008, 07:55:07 AM
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 19, 2008, 07:38:52 AM
Quote from: Korpen on September 19, 2008, 05:47:58 AM
I took a good look at DeCreme in the encyclopaedia, and she is not alright. The problem is similar to the one I pointed out on the design above, not enough deck space to mount the secondaries on deck.
I guess that the 5 centreline 14cm guns are on top of the turrets?
yes they were, and unless she changed after I drew the pic they actualy all fit (granted its tight in some places)
No picture.
But a problem with your drawings is that they lack a top view, and when looking at arcs and blast zones they are essential. From a pure side view it is easy to fit stuff, but then one start to take the training arcs from the main battery into account, it get much much harder.
I know but I tend to have trouble geting the shape even close to correct on a top view, making them less than worthless ^.^ (and look like crap to boot)
DeCreme ain't a good BB.
She was designed to be the biggest, heaviest armed most Glorious within the restrictions of the MN, like no superfiring.
And yes, the 140mm guns are mounted on top of the main gun turrets, in deck mounts, a very stupid thing to do, because the ammo transfer is a bitch, and gives a huge hazard.
Quote...the 140mm guns are mounted on top of the main gun turrets...
And the gunners are very exposed to splinters.
This kind of mount is strictly forbiden in Peruvian Armada.
Jef ;)
QuoteDeVits/DeTerme, French Glorious Dreadnaught laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
34.905 t light; 36.869 t standard; 42.483 t normal; 46.975 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721,78 ft / 715,22 ft x 121,39 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
220,00 m / 218,00 m x 37,00 m x 9,00 m
Armament:
8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16.358 lbs / 7.420 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,5" / 368 mm 464,90 ft / 141,70 m 13,22 ft / 4,03 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 250,31 ft / 76,29 m 13,22 ft / 4,03 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 464,90 ft / 141,70 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 700,00 ft / 213,36 m 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,5" / 368 mm 12,0" / 305 mm 14,5" / 368 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14,50" / 368 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 41.895 shp / 31.254 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10.106 tons
Complement:
1.479 - 1.923
Cost:
£3,075 million / $12,299 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.889 tons, 4,4%
Armour: 14.677 tons, 34,5%
- Belts: 5.733 tons, 13,5%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.554 tons, 3,7%
- Armament: 3.551 tons, 8,4%
- Armour Deck: 3.459 tons, 8,1%
- Conning Tower: 380 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.904 tons, 4,5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.835 tons, 37,3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7.578 tons, 17,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,4%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
82.254 lbs / 37.310 Kg = 49,1 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 18,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
Metacentric height 9,3 ft / 2,8 m
Roll period: 16,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,36
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,33
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,580
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,89 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32,15 ft / 9,80 m
- Forecastle (20%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (50%): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Stern: 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Average freeboard: 20,55 ft / 6,26 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155,6%
Waterplane Area: 62.322 Square feet or 5.790 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 199 lbs/sq ft or 973 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,26
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
A more modern lay out, the superfiring aversion overcome due the many excelent examples over the 7 seas. 2 main guns sacrificed to have better firing arcs
The 15" armor used on the DeCreme has proven qualitatively less than perfect, and by diminishing thickness with .5" the quality and expense problems are solved.
(one of the results of the speeded up building)
More extensive underwater protection for increased survivability in the age of bigger torpedo's.
600 tons misc.
250tons FC
100 tons Ears (3 sets)
100 tons flag facilities
150 tons crew comfort messures.
Quote from: Jefgte on September 19, 2008, 08:30:57 AM
Quote...the 140mm guns are mounted on top of the main gun turrets...
And the gunners are very exposed to splinters.
This kind of mount is strictly forbiden in Peruvian Armada.
Jef ;)
Pansy!
Borys
That's a very long torpedo bulkhead - is it practical so close to the ends of the ship?
A new idea of the French BB architects, even breached, a Torpedo Bulkhead will be less breached than the hull itself, therefor easier to contain the inflow of water/fuel and or/do battle repairs.
so more an inner hull than a torpedo bulkhead then?
You could look at it that way.
Problem is that you don't have much more beam fore and aft the citadel for torpedo protection.
Fore, the bow and forecastle are just too narrow. Aft the forecastle, the keel rises rapidly to makes space for the screws. My suggestion is to limit TBH length to say 80% of the total hull (that is 120% of the 'normal' length).
The ship is an oil tanker with capital ship armament. Does France really need to circumnavigate the globe without refueling?
Beam is excessive,I see no reason to have 120' beam. And the ship is either undergunned or overweight.
Quote from: P3D on November 07, 2008, 12:32:56 PM
Problem is that you don't have much more beam fore and aft the citadel for torpedo protection.
Fore, the bow and forecastle are just too narrow. Aft the forecastle, the keel rises rapidly to makes space for the screws. My suggestion is to limit TBH length to say 80% of the total hull (that is 120% of the 'normal' length).
That would be logical. But is it a reason ? We have seen stranger things done irl.
QuoteThe ship is an oil tanker with capital ship armament. Does France really need to circumnavigate the globe without refueling?
How else to reach French Polynesia if French Indochina ain't available anymore?Or reach the Great canal if the Atlantic is rife with enemy BB's?
Quote
Beam is excessive,I see no reason to have 120' beam.
From the start all the ships designed by me are slender of form but wide in the midsection.
QuoteAnd the ship is either undergunned or overweight.
Armament is heavier than the Queen Elisabeth class BB's and heavier than the armament of HMS Hood, the one a bit lighter but heavier protected and the other a lot bigger and faster.
Quote from: maddox on November 07, 2008, 12:53:28 PM
That would be logical. But is it a reason ? We have seen stranger things done irl.
The reason would be that it just won't fit geometrically.
QuoteThe ship is an oil tanker with capital ship armament. Does France really need to circumnavigate the globe without refueling?
QuoteHow else to reach French Polynesia if French Indochina ain't available anymore?Or reach the Great canal if the Atlantic is rife with enemy BB's?
The ship has larger fuel capacity than the Iowa.
French Polynesia is a distant base, it's only importance being French presence in the region. I'd count on reaching it with refueling at Ceylon or the Grand Canal.
QuoteFrom the start all the ships designed by me are slender of form but wide in the midsection.
K, this way it makes sense.
QuoteArmament is heavier than the Queen Elisabeth class BB's and heavier than the armament of HMS Hood, the one a bit lighter but heavier protected and the other a lot bigger and faster.
Main armament is the same as for the QEs and speed is 4kts lower (assuming QE at 25kts), the weight of the unarmored 14cms are almost negligible. Now compare it to the Bayern class, identical protection, main armament but on a 8,000t heavier hull.
Ill or non fitting bulkheads.
It just means that the bulkheads will get close to each other on the ends. It fits, just not easely nor with any good result in a fight.
On range and fuel capacity. The large fuel bunkers are the result of the requirement put on this ship to reach French Polynesia starting from Tricomalee or even Djibouti at a reasonable speed. And return.
Armament, speed and size. The slow top speed compared to the almost same sized and armed QE stems from the fact that the engines are about a decade older in design.
The Bayern class. You don't want to be on those ships for longer than a week, especialy not on the open sea.
And, Springsharp has its quirks. So do I.
This more to your liking then P3D?
Just a tweaked design, gaining speed, and secundary guns. Sacrificing armor and cruise speed.
QuoteDeVits/DeTerme, French Glorious Dreadnaught laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
35.998 t light; 37.984 t standard; 42.138 t normal; 45.462 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721,78 ft / 715,22 ft x 121,39 ft x 29,29 ft (normal load)
220,00 m / 218,00 m x 37,00 m x 8,93 m
Armament:
8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (12x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16.729 lbs / 7.588 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,5" / 368 mm 464,90 ft / 141,70 m 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
Ends: 5,00" / 127 mm 250,31 ft / 76,29 m 12,00 ft / 3,66 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 464,90 ft / 141,70 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 500,00 ft / 152,40 m 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,5" / 368 mm 12,0" / 305 mm 14,5" / 368 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 3,50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14,50" / 368 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 49.525 shp / 36.946 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7.477 tons
Complement:
1.469 - 1.911
Cost:
£3,197 million / $12,787 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.931 tons, 4,6%
Armour: 15.352 tons, 36,4%
- Belts: 6.328 tons, 15,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.110 tons, 2,6%
- Armament: 3.501 tons, 8,3%
- Armour Deck: 4.035 tons, 9,6%
- Conning Tower: 378 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 2.251 tons, 5,3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.865 tons, 37,6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.140 tons, 14,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,4%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
74.376 lbs / 33.736 Kg = 44,4 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 15,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
Metacentric height 8,7 ft / 2,7 m
Roll period: 17,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,580
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,89 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Stern: 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Average freeboard: 19,83 ft / 6,05 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65,6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153,0%
Waterplane Area: 62.322 Square feet or 5.790 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 201 lbs/sq ft or 982 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,20
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
A more modern lay out, the superfiring aversion overcome due the many examples over the 7 seas. 2 main guns sacrificed to have better firing arcs
The 15" armor used on the DeCreme has proven qualitatively less than perfect, and by diminishing thickness with .5" the quality and expense problems are solved.
600 tons misc.
250tons FC
100 tons Ears (3 sets)
100 tons flag facilities
150 tons crew comfort messures.
As shown in the HY report of HY01 1912, France layed down the keel of 4 new BB's.
No radical new desing came up, so the designers worked with the latest class of 25Ktons battleships, the Marats.
QuoteMarat B, French Dreadnought laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
24.156 t light; 25.730 t standard; 28.280 t normal; 30.320 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
564,30 ft / 557,74 ft x 94,49 ft x 28,54 ft (normal load)
172,00 m / 170,00 m x 28,80 m x 8,70 m
Armament:
8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
18 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16.173 lbs / 7.336 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 362,53 ft / 110,50 m 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 195,19 ft / 59,49 m 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 362,53 ft / 110,50 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,50" / 38 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 12,0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 29.199 shp / 21.783 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.590 tons
Complement:
1.089 - 1.417
Cost:
£2,600 million / $10,401 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.868 tons, 6,6%
Armour: 10.814 tons, 38,2%
- Belts: 5.097 tons, 18,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 666 tons, 2,4%
- Armament: 2.554 tons, 9,0%
- Armour Deck: 2.257 tons, 8,0%
- Conning Tower: 240 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 1.327 tons, 4,7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.747 tons, 34,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.123 tons, 14,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,4%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37.173 lbs / 16.861 Kg = 22,2 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 6,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
Metacentric height 5,6 ft / 1,7 m
Roll period: 16,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,40
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,658
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Forecastle (15%): 17,39 ft / 5,30 m
- Mid (50%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 17,26 ft / 5,26 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118,6%
Waterplane Area: 40.668 Square feet or 3.778 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 876 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,95
- Longitudinal: 1,50
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Marat B, the same hull as the original Marats, but redone for oil firing.
Due the lower weight of fuel, less draught.
Less freeboard to conserve stability.
400 tons misc weight is divided between FC, a set of ears and crew comfort.
Good, solid design. I'm not certain about the wholesale abandonment of casemates for deck mounts - personally, I'm doing a class or two with a transitional mix of the two.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 17, 2008, 08:51:11 AM
Good, solid design. I'm not certain about the wholesale abandonment of casemates for deck mounts - personally, I'm doing a class or two with a transitional mix of the two.
My I's have both (granted its only 4 casemates but still)
Nice ship, I'd like 2 knots more though.
Borys
DeVits does not offer much extra for having 10000t weight over the Marats.
You're right P3D, the only thing DeVits has is more stamina.
Luckely the Marat B's are layed down, and not the DeVits. The DeVits would be layed down after DeCreme.
I'll restart on the GBB successor of DeCreme.
QuoteChampagne/Bearn, French Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
24.142 t light; 25.633 t standard; 28.669 t normal; 31.097 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
629,92 ft / 623,36 ft x 88,58 ft (Bulges 101,71 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
192,00 m / 190,00 m x 27,00 m (Bulges 31,00 m) x 8,00 m
Armament:
6 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10 mounts), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 15.988 lbs / 7.252 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 374,02 ft / 114,00 m 11,50 ft / 3,51 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 92% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2,00" / 51 mm 374,02 ft / 114,00 m 24,71 ft / 7,53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 12,0" / 305 mm
2nd: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40.562 shp / 30.260 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.464 tons
Complement:
1.101 - 1.432
Cost:
£3,815 million / $15,260 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.847 tons, 6,4%
Armour: 7.943 tons, 27,7%
- Belts: 2.274 tons, 7,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 684 tons, 2,4%
- Armament: 2.495 tons, 8,7%
- Armour Deck: 2.248 tons, 7,8%
- Conning Tower: 242 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 1.617 tons, 5,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.236 tons, 42,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.526 tons, 15,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,7%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37.922 lbs / 17.201 Kg = 22,7 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 6,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
Metacentric height 5,3 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 18,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,32
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,603
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,13 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28,05 ft / 8,55 m
- Forecastle (20%): 17,85 ft / 5,44 m
- Mid (50%): 17,85 ft / 5,44 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 17,85 ft / 5,44 m
- Stern: 17,85 ft / 5,44 m
- Average freeboard: 18,66 ft / 5,69 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125,1%
Waterplane Area: 40.499 Square feet or 3.763 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 211 lbs/sq ft or 1.031 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,42
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
100 tons advanced radio-aural R-ears
100 tons crew comfort
50 tons admirals comfort.
Heretic! Superfiring turret :o on French battleships! Present yourself at the nearest Habsburg Consulate for re-indoctrination.
I have my reservations on the features of this ship. Does she really has a bulge or it is just the good old ugly tumblehome?
Quote from: P3D on December 03, 2008, 01:08:45 AM
Heretic! Superfiring turret :o on French battleships! Present yourself at the nearest Habsburg Consulate for re-indoctrination.
Dear god no he will be worshiping the blood god by the time we get him out of there...
The good old ugly tumblehome shape, but internaly its an armored hull - slab sided, not angled- with an external decapping void and an internal torpedo bulkhead.
And the SF turret isn't a new feature... the Demarce Cruisers are already floating and being a nuicance.
Or should I say, there is a new wind blowing trough the admiralty- or is it passed already. Flatulence can have fans.
But what are the reservations? She ain't as big as the DeCreme or Superbe not to mention the idiotic Masque. Nor does she has any tech features France doesn't posses for enough time.
I would not want to bring decapping in Nverse. Ahistorical, and one can design ships with invulnerable main belts using it. Anyhow, it would require additional armor thickness in the order of 1" and more.
Maddox, have you tried sketching a cross-section of the ship with the armor belt? I cannot make any sense of it. Belt is narrow, thin, short, and would leave something exposed - either under or above the waterlone. As I mentioned in PM, the ship can easily be mission-killed without any belt penetration - but even that won't be difficult to achieve. Also, dangerously vulnerable to secondaries.
As if a normal ship hull thickness bulge would decap a good apc shell.
About the narrowness of the belt. It's what Springsharp allocates for it. So it should do for France. I don't know for Rockies naval war system, but for what I use, it's a lucky hit to hit the armor belt.
The shorness of the belt ain't a problem, it's a result of the rather slow speed and 3 turret design of the ship, so less space for magazines and engines.
And mission kill is always a risk.
But for good order and messurment, a bit of tweaking.
Only 3Ktons heavier.
QuoteChampagne/Bearn, French Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
27.002 t light; 28.555 t standard; 31.803 t normal; 34.402 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
656,17 ft / 649,61 ft x 108,27 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
200,00 m / 198,00 m x 33,00 m x 8,00 m
Armament:
6 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10 mounts), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 15.988 lbs / 7.252 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 376,77 ft / 114,84 m 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 89% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 376,77 ft / 114,84 m 24,78 ft / 7,55 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 12,0" / 305 mm
2nd: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 43.033 shp / 32.102 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.847 tons
Complement:
1.189 - 1.547
Cost:
£3,981 million / $15,923 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.847 tons, 5,8%
Armour: 9.384 tons, 29,5%
- Belts: 3.077 tons, 9,7%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 691 tons, 2,2%
- Armament: 2.495 tons, 7,8%
- Armour Deck: 2.863 tons, 9,0%
- Conning Tower: 260 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 1.716 tons, 5,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13.555 tons, 42,6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.802 tons, 15,1%
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
49.584 lbs / 22.491 Kg = 29,6 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 9,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
Metacentric height 7,8 ft / 2,4 m
Roll period: 16,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,30
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,603
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25,49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28,05 ft / 8,55 m
- Forecastle (22%): 17,85 ft / 5,44 m
- Mid (50%): 17,85 ft / 5,44 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 17,85 ft / 5,44 m
- Stern: 17,85 ft / 5,44 m
- Average freeboard: 18,75 ft / 5,71 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,0%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147,5%
Waterplane Area: 51.584 Square feet or 4.792 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1.006 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,39
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
100 tons advanced radio-aural R-ears
100 tons crew comfort
50 tons admirals comfort.
QuoteOccitanie, French GBB laid down 191X (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
35.010 t light; 37.418 t standard; 40.602 t normal; 43.149 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721,80 ft / 715,22 ft x 108,27 ft x 30,18 ft (normal load)
220,00 m / 218,00 m x 33,00 m x 9,20 m
Armament:
12 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 23.589 lbs / 10.700 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 410,00 ft / 124,97 m 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 88% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 407,68 ft / 124,26 m 28,55 ft / 8,70 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48.001 shp / 35.809 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.731 tons
Complement:
1.429 - 1.859
Cost:
£4,168 million / $16,672 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.726 tons, 6,7%
Armour: 13.771 tons, 33,9%
- Belts: 5.265 tons, 13,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 861 tons, 2,1%
- Armament: 3.618 tons, 8,9%
- Armour Deck: 3.695 tons, 9,1%
- Conning Tower: 331 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 2.182 tons, 5,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.732 tons, 38,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.592 tons, 13,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
50.243 lbs / 22.790 Kg = 30,0 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 8,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
Metacentric height 6,5 ft / 2,0 m
Roll period: 17,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,608
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2,43 ft / 0,74 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (25%): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Mid (50%): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Quarterdeck (18%): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Stern: 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Average freeboard: 18,31 ft / 5,58 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129,8%
Waterplane Area: 57.060 Square feet or 5.301 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 211 lbs/sq ft or 1.030 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,17
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc weigth
250 tons FC
100 tons Enhanced Radio-Aural Ears
100 tons Admirals quarters
100 tons crew comfort
50 tons to be assigned
Quote
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 410,00 ft / 124,97 m 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 88% of normal length
Part of the AoN concept in the US Navy was that of a minimal flotational volume which would be armored, so that waterline hits outside the citadel wouldn't eventually result in flooding that could sink the ship. This is what SS is reflecting with it's armor coverage percentage.
So I think you'll want to armor at least 100% of the normal length, or put end belts back in. Since your belt probably extends from the vicinity of your first and last main battery turrets, this will also have the effect of spreading those out a bit, which would also give you more usable space amidships for machinery, magazines, and wine stores. You know, the important stuff. ;)
The USN fixed the citadel lenght at 2/3rds lenght. With the Pacific in mind.
Other fleets had other ideas - due to usually being closer to a base, the RN went for citadels closer to 1/2 of lenght.
Borys
Hm. I knew that the Nelrods and G3 and N3 had shorter citadels, but what I don't know is how long was the belt on the KGV's?
If you look better you'll see that the turrets and magazines are inside the shorter belt. The lower speed of the French ships allow for a smaller engine and boiler room, and by extending the quarterdeck and forecasle I could pull all the vurnable parts behind the short, but high belt.
Forecastle 25% and quarterdeck 18% - compared to 20 and 15% of SS default. That is why the 88% warning is there ,and not the warning "armor belt doesn't cover engine space or magazines."
It's also the reason I considered NEDS, and therefor only put 16 secundaries on her.
Ah, I see. Ok.
Still probably not nearly enough wine bunker space. :P
All I can find ATM about the KGV is that the MB ran from the foremost to aftmost MG turret :)
Borys
Looking at a couple of line drawings and photos from the side, I think the main belt on KGV was approx 416 feet, which is about 55% of total length. I'd say that my not terribly advanced ruler on book or virtual ruler on jpg measurement system is probably +/- 5%.
I'm not worried, it's not af she's in the French books. Just a design.
With 10 tons of admirals quarters designated to a granite lined wine cellar . (only 500 bottles of good wines of the era)
And 10 tons of the crew comfort to Vinogel storage.
Vinogel is distilled wine, so it is easier to transport and after transport, just ad water to get it into an acceptable alcohol %. (the strongest vinogel I ever have seen is 35%, so 1 liter of vinogel is 3 liters of reconstituted wine)
So 10 tons of vinogel storage is 9 tons of liquid. Means 27000 liter of restored alcoholic beverage.
1850 crew members, on sea for 21 days(7000nm @ 14 kts) have a ration of .71 liter, or 1 bottle.
I think this data on wine storage needs to find it's way into the ship design guidelines....
Quote from: guinness on December 13, 2008, 05:25:13 PM
I think this data on wine storage needs to find it's way into the ship design guidelines....
IDK it only realy aplies to the French and Italians (us less Civilised types just haul beer)
The CSN is, sadly, dry.
AON has nothing to do with protected flotation reserve - that is an US concept. Every other navies with AON (i.e. everyone but the Germans) had much shorter citadel length. Just armor what you really need to.The G/N/O3 which took it even further, neglecting machinery protection for magazines.
The length of belt means that at least 65% of the flotation reserve is contained behind that belt.
218 meters total waterline length, and 124.97m belt length.
Means 57% of the waterline length is protected by the belt. Combined with the shape of the hull -in the middle rather boxy- I see a floatation capacity of the armored citadel of 65% .
In the worst case, if both ends are flooded, and the ship rides very deep in the water (Seydlitz anyone?) there are the options to lighten her. I hear the badly wounded admiral ordering the granite plates of his winecellar overboard.
The best way to determine the coverage needed for your vessel is to draw a picture of your ship. Only then will you know if the 88% coverage of the main belt is enough...
... and I doubt that 0.71 liters per crew member is enough for the French. :D
Oh, that's easely solved, the amount of alcoholic beverage on board.
First of all, it could be seen as normal consumables ,and therefore fitting into the :
QuoteFuel, ammunition & stores: 5.592 tons, 13,8%
Other solution is to take on stronger vinogel, after all it is just distilled wine. Just distil it up to 70% alcohol, and double the amount of restored wine. :)
But a bottle of wine a day, is more than enough, I'm not having ships manned with drunken bums.
Quote from: maddox on December 14, 2008, 02:33:48 AM
Other solution is to take on stonger vinogel, after all it is just distilled wine. Just distil it up to 70% alcohol, and double the amount of restored wine. :)
Why not simply give them vodka instead?
Or is that my Central/North European background speaking ... ?
Borys
Vodka has 1 disadvantage. If you drink a bottle of that, you're out for the job you're supposed to be doing.
A 0.7 liter 10-12% alcohol volume drink, consumed during 2 meals shouldn't impare people that are used to drinking that.
QuoteFreeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (25%): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Mid (50%): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Quarterdeck (18%): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Stern: 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Average freeboard: 18,31 ft / 5,58 m
rectilign deck with just 1 break at 25%.
I think...not a good looking hull
;)
French ships are ALWAYS ugly.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on December 14, 2008, 03:18:46 PM
French ships are ALWAYS ugly.
Borys
its a rule isnt it?
But very seaworthy, can't have wet turrets, don't we.
And it's a French feature since I do the springsharps. A massive bow to part the sea in an aggressive move.
So, what would you propose otherwise Jef?
Occitanie should be a beauty.
forecastle 25%...6.2m
wet ship forward then
No thanks, we can't use seawater in the crew quarters.
No
From 5.2 to 6.2 at 25%
This better?
QuoteOccitanie, French GBB laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
35.010 t light; 37.418 t standard; 40.602 t normal; 43.149 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721,75 ft / 715,22 ft x 108,27 ft x 30,18 ft (normal load)
219,99 m / 218,00 m x 33,00 m x 9,20 m
Armament:
12 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 23.589 lbs / 10.700 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 410,00 ft / 124,97 m 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 88% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 407,68 ft / 124,26 m 29,00 ft / 8,84 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48.001 shp / 35.809 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.731 tons
Complement:
1.429 - 1.859
Cost:
£4,168 million / $16,672 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.726 tons, 6,7%
Armour: 13.607 tons, 33,5%
- Belts: 5.265 tons, 13,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 875 tons, 2,2%
- Armament: 3.705 tons, 9,1%
- Armour Deck: 3.431 tons, 8,4%
- Conning Tower: 331 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 2.182 tons, 5,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.895 tons, 39,1%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.592 tons, 13,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
51.193 lbs / 23.221 Kg = 30,6 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 8,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
Metacentric height 6,6 ft / 2,0 m
Roll period: 17,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,27
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,608
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2,43 ft / 0,74 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,20 ft / 8,90 m
- Forecastle (25%): 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Mid (50%): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Quarterdeck (18%): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Stern: 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Average freeboard: 19,18 ft / 5,85 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135,2%
Waterplane Area: 57.060 Square feet or 5.301 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 212 lbs/sq ft or 1.033 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,22
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc weigth
250 tons FC
100 tons ears
100 tons Admirals quarters
100 tons crew comfort
50 tons to be assigned
...and seaboat quality increase to 1.27
thanks for the crew & ...the wine :D
;)
Had to shave off .25" of deck armor. Now it's the feeble 3.25"
Oh..heavens..3.25" now a 15" shell could penetrate it from 20kyds..damn
Somebody is complaining about the cost of battleships. So a small design is forwarded, using every modern trick in the French inventory of tricks.
QuotePetite, French battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
20.984 t light; 22.444 t standard; 25.532 t normal; 28.002 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 98,43 ft x 25,43 ft (normal load)
170,00 m / 169,00 m x 30,00 m x 7,75 m
Armament:
6 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns (3 mounts), 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12.372 lbs / 5.612 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 135
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 282,78 ft / 86,19 m 23,00 ft / 7,01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 78% of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,25" / 57 mm 282,78 ft / 86,19 m 24,35 ft / 7,42 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 12,0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 2,75" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 33.480 shp / 24.976 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 7.500nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.558 tons
Complement:
1.009 - 1.312
Cost:
£3,471 million / $13,884 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.428 tons, 5,6%
Armour: 8.192 tons, 32,1%
- Belts: 3.713 tons, 14,5%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 573 tons, 2,2%
- Armament: 1.566 tons, 6,1%
- Armour Deck: 2.115 tons, 8,3%
- Conning Tower: 224 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.335 tons, 5,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.629 tons, 37,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.548 tons, 17,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,6% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37.019 lbs / 16.791 Kg = 22,1 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 7,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 6,5 ft / 2,0 m
Roll period: 16,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,644
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Forecastle (30%): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Mid (65%): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Quarterdeck (19%): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Stern: 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Average freeboard: 15,94 ft / 4,86 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115,9%
Waterplane Area: 41.576 Square feet or 3.863 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 890 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,95
- Longitudinal: 1,53
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
50 tons ears
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons admirals cabin
IMO, much small BBs are also better in tactical use.
;)
The same numbers in BIG battleships are better ;)
The design needs further work.
The MB is too short, and the artillery way too weak.
If ship size is an issue, then 4x2x34cm is the way to go.
ONLY six guns in ONLY two turrets? And all forward? This is no ship-of-the-line.
Borys
This better Borys?
A tad heavier broadside
Less secundaries. Bit more range and a belt that rectified the few inches I overlooked somewere.
QuotePetite, French battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
21.215 t light; 22.603 t standard; 25.928 t normal; 28.589 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 98,43 ft x 25,43 ft (normal load)
170,00 m / 169,00 m x 30,00 m x 7,75 m
Armament:
9 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2 mounts), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 3 raised guns
8 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
3 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12.862 lbs / 5.834 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 285,55 ft / 87,04 m 23,00 ft / 7,01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 79% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,25" / 57 mm 285,55 ft / 87,04 m 24,37 ft / 7,43 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 12,0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 2,75" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 33.930 shp / 25.312 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 8.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.986 tons
Complement:
1.021 - 1.328
Cost:
£3,529 million / $14,115 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.458 tons, 5,6%
Armour: 8.271 tons, 31,9%
- Belts: 3.742 tons, 14,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 579 tons, 2,2%
- Armament: 1.589 tons, 6,1%
- Armour Deck: 2.135 tons, 8,2%
- Conning Tower: 226 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.353 tons, 5,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.733 tons, 37,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.714 tons, 18,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38.130 lbs / 17.295 Kg = 31,8 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 7,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
Metacentric height 6,7 ft / 2,0 m
Roll period: 16,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,654
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Forecastle (30%): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Mid (65%): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Quarterdeck (19%): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Stern: 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Average freeboard: 15,93 ft / 4,85 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115,6%
Waterplane Area: 41.960 Square feet or 3.898 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 892 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,45
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
50 tons ears
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons admirals cabin
Quote from: maddox on January 26, 2009, 04:02:53 AM
Armament:
9 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2 mounts), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 3 raised guns
The three-gun turret raised aft and the six-gun turret forward? ;)
You could fill the oceans with these:
Petit et Dangeroux, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
19 052 t light; 20 120 t standard; 23 124 t normal; 25 526 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550,00 ft / 550,00 ft x 100,00 ft x 27,00 ft (normal load)
167,64 m / 167,64 m x 30,48 m x 8,23 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1 322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
14 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11 879 lbs / 5 388 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,5" / 318 mm 285,00 ft / 86,87 m 14,00 ft / 4,27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 80% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 285,00 ft / 86,87 m 42,00 ft / 12,80 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,4" / 340 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 11,0" / 279 mm
2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm - 1,00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 30 345 shp / 22 637 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 8 000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5 406 tons
Complement:
936 - 1 218
Cost:
£3,218 million / $12,873 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 346 tons, 5,8%
Armour: 7 570 tons, 32,7%
- Belts: 2 353 tons, 10,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 886 tons, 3,8%
- Armament: 1 966 tons, 8,5%
- Armour Deck: 2 120 tons, 9,2%
- Conning Tower: 245 tons, 1,1%
Machinery: 1 210 tons, 5,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 526 tons, 36,9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 072 tons, 17,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,7%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34 637 lbs / 15 711 Kg = 28,9 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 7,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,22
Metacentric height 7,2 ft / 2,2 m
Roll period: 15,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,33
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,545
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25,00 ft / 7,62 m
- Forecastle (20%): 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
- Mid (50%): 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
- Stern: 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
- Average freeboard: 15,80 ft / 4,82 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116,6%
Waterplane Area: 38 205 Square feet or 3 549 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 842 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,55
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote9 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2 mounts), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 3 raised guns
I was hoping to see four and a half guns per turret, myself.
Glitches aside - the type might have some appeal as a "colonial" battleship. It's a tough cookie for most dreadnoughts to handle, and might be able to hold out until help arrives from the Glorious French homeland.
Deglitched , delouzed, and decorrupted.
A small, sturdy ship that isn't ment to operate alone in the cold hard blue sea.
QuotePetite, French Budget battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
20.988 t light; 22.408 t standard; 25.492 t normal; 27.959 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 98,43 ft x 25,43 ft (normal load)
170,00 m / 169,00 m x 30,00 m x 7,75 m
Armament:
9 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
10 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
3 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13.446 lbs / 6.099 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 293,86 ft / 89,57 m 20,00 ft / 6,10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 82% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,50" / 64 mm 293,86 ft / 89,57 m 25,00 ft / 7,62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 12,0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 2,50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 33.435 shp / 24.943 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 7.500nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.551 tons
Complement:
1.008 - 1.311
Cost:
£3,540 million / $14,160 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.479 tons, 5,8%
Armour: 8.163 tons, 32,0%
- Belts: 3.319 tons, 13,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 680 tons, 2,7%
- Armament: 2.020 tons, 7,9%
- Armour Deck: 1.921 tons, 7,5%
- Conning Tower: 224 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.333 tons, 5,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.613 tons, 37,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.504 tons, 17,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36.225 lbs / 16.431 Kg = 30,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 7,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
Metacentric height 6,2 ft / 1,9 m
Roll period: 16,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,643
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25,26 ft / 7,70 m
- Forecastle (28%): 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Mid (65%): 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Quarterdeck (19%): 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Stern: 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Average freeboard: 16,23 ft / 4,95 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80,0%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118,5%
Waterplane Area: 41.538 Square feet or 3.859 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 886 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,43
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
50 tons ears
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons admirals cabin
A quick throw-together, got 8x38cm guns:
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1912
Displacement:
20 000 t light; 21 651 t standard; 23 296 t normal; 24 612 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557,74 ft / 557,74 ft x 91,86 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
170,00 m / 170,00 m x 28,00 m x 9,00 m
Armament:
8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1 807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
6 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns (4 mounts), 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 15 586 lbs / 7 070 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 135
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,2" / 310 mm 351,05 ft / 107,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 206,69 ft / 63,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Upper: 4,72" / 120 mm 351,05 ft / 107,00 m 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,38" / 35 mm 351,05 ft / 107,00 m 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,6" / 320 mm 4,72" / 120 mm 12,2" / 310 mm
2nd: 1,38" / 35 mm - -
3rd: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2,95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 9,84" / 250 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 24 824 shp / 18 518 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 8 430nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 961 tons
Complement:
942 - 1 225
Cost:
£2,364 million / $9,454 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 815 tons, 7,8 %
Armour: 7 685 tons, 33,0 %
- Belts: 3 111 tons, 13,4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 499 tons, 2,1 %
- Armament: 1 969 tons, 8,5 %
- Armour Deck: 1 933 tons, 8,3 %
- Conning Tower: 173 tons, 0,7 %
Machinery: 990 tons, 4,2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9 190 tons, 39,4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 296 tons, 14,1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 320 tons, 1,4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25 026 lbs / 11 351 Kg = 14,9 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 4,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
Metacentric height 5,1 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 17,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,539
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,07 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Mid (50 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,63 ft / 4,16 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96,7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93,9 %
Waterplane Area: 35 389 Square feet or 3 288 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 946 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,43
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Sorry Korpen, she doesn't do what I expect from her.
I'm not as keen on the Korpen design as the latest Maddox design - but I agree that bunkerage is pretty high.
QuoteBritannie, Glorious France Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
34.464 t light; 36.996 t standard; 40.151 t normal; 42.676 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
659,45 ft / 656,17 ft x 113,19 ft x 29,20 ft (normal load)
201,00 m / 200,00 m x 34,50 m x 8,90 m
Armament:
12 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 23.587 lbs / 10.699 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 364,17 ft / 111,00 m 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 85% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 364,17 ft / 111,00 m 28,02 ft / 8,54 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 50.174 shp / 37.430 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 8.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.680 tons
Complement:
1.417 - 1.843
Cost:
£5,492 million / $21,970 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.726 tons, 6,8%
Armour: 13.521 tons, 33,7%
- Belts: 5.190 tons, 12,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 755 tons, 1,9%
- Armament: 3.833 tons, 9,5%
- Armour Deck: 3.415 tons, 8,5%
- Conning Tower: 328 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 2.001 tons, 5,0%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.816 tons, 39,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.688 tons, 14,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
50.520 lbs / 22.916 Kg = 30,2 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 8,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
Metacentric height 7,0 ft / 2,1 m
Roll period: 18,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,648
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25,62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,20 ft / 8,90 m
- Forecastle (25%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 18,56 ft / 5,66 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,0%
Waterplane Area: 56.792 Square feet or 5.276 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 219 lbs/sq ft or 1.069 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,30
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Half sister to Occitanie
Armor belt sloped 12°
250 tons FC
50 tons radar
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons admiral quarters
The answer to the OR design for a new Battleship (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4146.0)
A cut down, cheaper, heavier armored and faster version of the Occitanie/Britannie designs.
QuoteLe Bête, French Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
30.009 t light; 32.052 t standard; 35.135 t normal; 37.601 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
693,08 ft / 688,98 ft x 101,71 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
211,25 m / 210,00 m x 31,00 m x 9,00 m
Armament:
9 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17.618 lbs / 7.991 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 135
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 399,61 ft / 121,80 m 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 89% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 399,61 ft / 121,80 m 27,78 ft / 8,47 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3,75" / 95 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 71.325 shp / 53.209 Kw = 25,00 kts
Range 7.500nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.549 tons
Complement:
1.283 - 1.668
Cost:
£5,720 million / $22,880 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.052 tons, 5,8%
Armour: 11.179 tons, 31,8%
- Belts: 3.742 tons, 10,7%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 821 tons, 2,3%
- Armament: 2.755 tons, 7,8%
- Armour Deck: 3.537 tons, 10,1%
- Conning Tower: 324 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 2.657 tons, 7,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13.721 tons, 39,1%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.126 tons, 14,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,1%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44.639 lbs / 20.248 Kg = 26,7 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 7,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
Metacentric height 5,9 ft / 1,8 m
Roll period: 17,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,594
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,77 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 4,10 ft / 1,25 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28,87 ft / 8,80 m
- Forecastle (22%): 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
- Mid (50%): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 17,39 ft / 5,30 m
- Stern: 17,39 ft / 5,30 m
- Average freeboard: 19,04 ft / 5,80 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137,1%
Waterplane Area: 50.979 Square feet or 4.736 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 978 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,28
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 ton FC
25 tons ERADe
25 tons Long range marconi
25 tons Flag facilities
75 tons crew comfort
Nice. That could be a battlecrusier for you. (You know you need them) ;). Seriously, that could cream everything you have besides a Decreme, a Occitanie, or the Masque.
I don't see the reasoning to build a smaller BC than the much faster Montmedie.
Montmedie?
Montmedie or Montmedy (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3563.msg38960#msg38960)
is being build...
QuoteShip building. $/BP-HY totals $/BP/Time
Montmedy $7/6.25 $29,27/28,75/12months
Masque GBB $5/5 $84,70/62,81/48 months
20 x 1Kton DD's $12,5/10 $25/20 Tigre B Shakedown nov/jan
6 X Demarce III B $12/12 $24/25/12
Dear god, you have hoards of huge ships. Pretty soon you'll have to start building escort battleships the size of the first Drednought.
Actualy, France officialy has 2 HUGE ships. Superbe (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1545.msg20288#msg20288) and DeCreme (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1545.msg30460#msg30460)
And as of HY 01 1917 3 in build. Masque, Montmedie and her half sister.
Superbe ain't no longer abnormal in size, about all BB building countries are building or have 30Kton ships in service.
On the other end of the spectrum France has the 2 obsolete Magenta and Marceau (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1545.msg15792#msg15792)
Why does France keep Occitanie a secret?
Occitanie?
Maybe a thing to put your well payed spy service on.
But rumors are that there is an Italian BB in Tunis that isn't in the books.
;D
A follow up on the Bretagnes.
QuoteAuvergne/Centre/Champagne/Picardie, French Battleship laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
27.000 t light; 28.740 t standard; 31.482 t normal; 33.676 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
626,64 ft / 623,36 ft x 101,71 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
191,00 m / 190,00 m x 31,00 m x 8,50 m
Armament:
8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16.320 lbs / 7.403 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 355,31 ft / 108,30 m 20,00 ft / 6,10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 88% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 355,31 ft / 108,30 m 32,00 ft / 9,75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 12,0" / 305 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 43.071 shp / 32.131 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.935 tons
Complement:
1.181 - 1.536
Cost:
£5,505 million / $22,020 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.884 tons, 6,0%
Armour: 11.672 tons, 37,1%
- Belts: 4.526 tons, 14,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 841 tons, 2,7%
- Armament: 2.915 tons, 9,3%
- Armour Deck: 3.068 tons, 9,7%
- Conning Tower: 322 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 1.605 tons, 5,1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.439 tons, 36,3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.482 tons, 14,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,3%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42.628 lbs / 19.336 Kg = 25,5 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 8,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 6,1 ft / 1,9 m
Roll period: 17,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,623
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,13 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Forecastle (23%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (50%): 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Stern: 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Average freeboard: 16,48 ft / 5,02 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80,0%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117,7%
Waterplane Area: 47.383 Square feet or 4.402 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 187 lbs/sq ft or 913 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,22
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 ton FC
25 ton ERADe equipment
75 ton Crew comfort
25 ton Long range marconi
25 ton undefined
A good classic BB
;)
Thank you.
I'm rather happy with the result on 27ktons.
Nice BB, I rather like it honestly
Don't you have triple turrets? I would think that would be more useful. 3x3 insted of 4x2.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 17, 2009, 03:33:31 PM
Don't you have triple turrets? I would think that would be more useful. 3x3 insted of 4x2.
France dosnt use tripple turrets...
Masque...
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 17, 2009, 03:40:37 PM
Masque...
an aberation... I swear I had the argument with Maddox once...
Well, historically, the British started usign tripple turrets in 1920, so do you think that will happen to the french?
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 17, 2009, 03:33:31 PM
Don't you have triple turrets? I would think that would be more useful. 3x3 insted of 4x2.
The tripple turret is developed, and at least 8 are seen in the naval shipyard at Brest.
The 3*3 version . A more French hull has its advantages.
QuoteAuvergne II, French Battleship laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
27.001 t light; 28.744 t standard; 31.060 t normal; 32.913 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
626,64 ft / 623,36 ft x 106,63 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
191,00 m / 190,00 m x 32,50 m x 9,00 m
Armament:
9 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.674,25lbs / 759,43kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16.556 lbs / 7.510 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 342,85 ft / 104,50 m 18,50 ft / 5,64 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 85% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 342,85 ft / 104,50 m 27,17 ft / 8,28 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 41.754 shp / 31.149 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.169 tons
Complement:
1.169 - 1.520
Cost:
£5,773 million / $23,090 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.052 tons, 6,6%
Armour: 10.563 tons, 34,0%
- Belts: 4.084 tons, 13,1%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 689 tons, 2,2%
- Armament: 2.692 tons, 8,7%
- Armour Deck: 2.799 tons, 9,0%
- Conning Tower: 298 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 1.556 tons, 5,0%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.431 tons, 40,0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.059 tons, 13,1%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,3%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40.552 lbs / 18.394 Kg = 24,2 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 7,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 6,6 ft / 2,0 m
Roll period: 17,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,554
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28,87 ft / 8,80 m
- Forecastle (23%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Quarterdeck (22%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 17,55 ft / 5,35 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124,4%
Waterplane Area: 46.557 Square feet or 4.325 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 996 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,48
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 ton FC
25 ton ERADe equipment
75 ton Crew comfort
25 ton Long range marconi
25 ton undefined
Wow. Thats not something I would want to fight. Thats a fairly high cruising speed, though.
Same as the new cruisers and DD's.
Whistles inocently while looking at the 19 knot cruise on his new BCs
With all the Big Battleships the ESC is designing, the French naval architects can't stay behind.
QuoteSeine, French GBB laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
49.859 t light; 52.696 t standard; 57.705 t normal; 61.713 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
885,83 ft / 879,27 ft x 131,23 ft x 31,82 ft (normal load)
270,00 m / 268,00 m x 40,00 m x 9,70 m
Armament:
8 - 16,14" / 410 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2.755,78lbs / 1.250,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 23.730 lbs / 10.764 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 126
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 448,43 ft / 136,68 m 21,00 ft / 6,40 m
Ends: 2,00" / 51 mm 430,82 ft / 131,31 m 21,00 ft / 6,40 m
Main Belt covers 78% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 448,43 ft / 136,68 m 29,61 ft / 9,03 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 15,0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 138.042 shp / 102.979 Kw = 28,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9.018 tons
Complement:
1.861 - 2.420
Cost:
£10,420 million / $41,679 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.313 tons, 4,0%
Armour: 18.622 tons, 32,3%
- Belts: 7.156 tons, 12,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 983 tons, 1,7%
- Armament: 4.042 tons, 7,0%
- Armour Deck: 5.959 tons, 10,3%
- Conning Tower: 483 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 5.143 tons, 8,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 23.280 tons, 40,3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7.847 tons, 13,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 0,9%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
94.910 lbs / 43.051 Kg = 45,1 x 16,1 " / 410 mm shells or 16,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
Metacentric height 10,4 ft / 3,2 m
Roll period: 17,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,70 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29,65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31,50 ft / 9,60 m
- Forecastle (25%): 21,65 ft / 6,60 m
- Mid (50%): 21,65 ft / 6,60 m
- Quarterdeck (24%): 21,65 ft / 6,60 m
- Stern: 21,65 ft / 6,60 m
- Average freeboard: 22,64 ft / 6,90 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73,0%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178,5%
Waterplane Area: 80.529 Square feet or 7.481 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 225 lbs/sq ft or 1.100 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,99
- Longitudinal: 1,06
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe equipment
25 tons Long range Marconi
50 tons flag facilities.
100 tons crew comfort
50 tons not designated yet
Belt sloped 12°= Belt height is 20.54 feet/6.26 meter
410mm just to make sure the guns are bigger then? :) Why not go for 419mm (and call it 420mm)? At least then there is something close to an actual historical gun to base it on, not that it was ever actually fielded.
*Shakes fist at French and ESC designers*
Hey, Gran Colombia/Rocky, your BB's have French roots. Or did you forget that you "bought" a French naval designer ,so around the El Dorado issues...
Even if I had, my fifteen-gunned Radiante class would remind me.
Still, I'm allowed to shake my fist at the current crop of ESC and French designers who scale things up so enormously.
In a few years, we are going to have 80 000t BBs :o
;)
Waste of money. The 12x15'' gunned Brittanie's are much better ships.
Could you explain that a tad better TC?
Certainly. The broadside of the guns is about the same. However, the 12x15'' design will have more shells in the air at a given time, and will have better FC, because the faster rate of fire will lead to more shell splashes, leading to better FC.
Also, this ship weighes 15,000 tons more, but has the same broadside. That's just a waste of BP. Even if it is 28 knots, the ship will be so prohibititaly expensive to the point where only 2 can be fielded at a time. Each one of them take's up a whole year's worth of BP, when you consider the escorts needed to defend it.
Now the question is, "how will the French heavy 15" shells do against the ESC monsters?".
Testing in Biggun as we speak.
It can barely penetrate at 16,000 feet. If it is decapped, it is doomed. However, I was testing based on a 45L gun. Is it 40L, 45L, or 50L?
The older 340mm is L45, the 380mm is L42.
Shells are or AP, Yellow or Green shells. HE isn't standard in the magazines.
But, the barely " able to penetrate" is the reason for larger guns.
A 6" deck is nuts. The Yamato had that....
On the bright side, he's using up valuable BP right now that can't be taken back...
If France can't counter those monsters, that BP is well spend. Imagine one of those entering Brest with impunity...
He has his monster's for 9 BP less, and 1 more gun.
Speed costs, I aimed for 3 kts faster as that is the lowest difference that could mean a thing in a running battle.
I don't know... It seems to be not worth it. The speed you gained at the cost of firepower and size makes my view of the ship terribly similar to TC's.
This better?
QuoteSeine, French GBB laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
50.000 t light; 53.628 t standard; 58.699 t normal; 62.756 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
885,83 ft / 879,27 ft x 131,23 ft x 31,82 ft (normal load)
270,00 m / 268,00 m x 40,00 m x 9,70 m
Armament:
12 - 16,14" / 410 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2.755,78lbs / 1.250,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 34.753 lbs / 15.764 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 126
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 422,05 ft / 128,64 m 21,00 ft / 6,40 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 74% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 422,05 ft / 128,64 m 29,00 ft / 8,84 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 57.555 shp / 42.936 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9.128 tons
Complement:
1.885 - 2.451
Cost:
£11,527 million / $46,107 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3.365 tons, 5,7%
Armour: 17.911 tons, 30,5%
- Belts: 5.790 tons, 9,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 906 tons, 1,5%
- Armament: 4.715 tons, 8,0%
- Armour Deck: 6.012 tons, 10,2%
- Conning Tower: 488 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 2.144 tons, 3,7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 26.154 tons, 44,6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8.699 tons, 14,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 425 tons, 0,7%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
97.952 lbs / 44.430 Kg = 46,6 x 16,1 " / 410 mm shells or 17,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
Metacentric height 9,2 ft / 2,8 m
Roll period: 18,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,559
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,70 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29,65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 33 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31,50 ft / 9,60 m
- Forecastle (26%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (50%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Quarterdeck (26%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Stern: 20,01 ft / 6,10 m
- Average freeboard: 22,21 ft / 6,77 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175,1%
Waterplane Area: 81.247 Square feet or 7.548 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 252 lbs/sq ft or 1.231 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,15
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe equipment
25 tons Long range Marconi
50 tons flag facilities.
75 tons crew comfort
Belt sloped 12°= Belt height is 20.54 feet/6.26 meter
Yes. Another in the line of the GBB's. I think this ship is more effective, although I wonder if a little less range would make just a little more speed. 24 knots?
Quote from: maddox on January 24, 2010, 05:43:59 PM
If France can't counter those monsters, that BP is well spend. Imagine one of those entering Brest with impunity...
A few heavy caliber coastal guns and a command detonated minefield can handle that. It would be insane for anything this big to get anywhere near the enemy's coast under most circumstances.
No, the whole point of building such monsters is to make the enemy decide between hiding his major units in port or risk having them sunk in a Mahanian ultimate battle.
All that written, I think escalating the super-battleship building race is the wrong strategy for the ESC. The French can always match at a minimum, or continue the escalation. Few if any other powers can compete in the long run. The end result: the French simply have more and better ships than everyone else, but everyone else have spent all their BP for years and years in the process.
Since no one is interested in an arms limitation treat, I suppose this is inevitable. What will be interesting to see is what powers other than France might do. Will GC, Rohan, the UNK, Orange, Russia, or the CSA try to match these ships qualitatively on their own? Will they have any influence on the development of the ship designs of the Pacific powers?
50,000 tons buys me 33 Kidd class Super Destroyers, or 100 E-class submarines. Most definately a better way to spend money.
You know, DF....50 Kidd destroyer's would die againist this and a few escorts, (2 Demarce IV's, 5 Tigre B's)
The 5 Tigres would not cause the DD Captains to even blink, oh and 2 Demarces? Thank You! I needed more targets for the 450 Long Lances...
*hmmmm*
How to phrase this.....
450 Long lances on 50 ships means any single HE round hitting any one of these ships is extremely likely to lead to an Oxygen fueled Fire on the deck followed shortly by sympathetic detonation of the 24" Warheads.
Historically this goes back to the fact that over the course of the war more Japanese Ships were sunk because of the Long Lance Type 93 Torpedo then the number of Allied Ships sunk because of it.
All that being said 50 Destroyers is an awful lot of destroyers to handle but If I were the Destroyer Captains I would still want it at night in confined waters. And not in the bright sun of a clear ocean with no land within 50 miles.
This goes back to the old arguement of a swarm fleet against a small number of much larger ships and can the swarm fleet be defeated in detail ???? ;)
I have the 12 Demarce IIIb's especialy against those swarms. 12 fire control directed quick firing 140mm guns per ship, ERADe and night fighting capacity. Come and get it.
And that's not counting the potential Eclaire class cruisers, faster than any DD, heavier broadside than an AC.
With such a threat, shouldn't France start making shells with smaller bomblets on a timer? A French 380mm shell can carry -in weight- 19 of the 140mm shells.
It seems some more secundaries are needed. And the armor protection cannot be diminished. So I end up with a ship that is a tad larger.
QuoteSeine, French GBB laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
54.000 t light; 57.687 t standard; 63.020 t normal; 67.286 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
889,11 ft / 882,55 ft x 124,67 ft (Bulges 144,36 ft) x 31,50 ft (normal load)
271,00 m / 269,00 m x 38,00 m (Bulges 44,00 m) x 9,60 m
Armament:
12 - 16,14" / 410 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2.755,78lbs / 1.250,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (12x2 guns), 55,12lbs / 25,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 34.401 lbs / 15.604 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 126
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 441,27 ft / 134,50 m 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
Ends: 2,00" / 51 mm 441,25 ft / 134,49 m 13,00 ft / 3,96 m
Main Belt covers 77% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2,00" / 51 mm 441,27 ft / 134,50 m 28,00 ft / 8,53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 15,0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 16,00" / 406 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 89.522 shp / 66.784 Kw = 24,50 kts
Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9.599 tons
Complement:
1.988 - 2.585
Cost:
£12,208 million / $48,833 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3.343 tons, 5,3%
Armour: 19.390 tons, 30,8%
- Belts: 7.086 tons, 11,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 914 tons, 1,5%
- Armament: 5.162 tons, 8,2%
- Armour Deck: 5.681 tons, 9,0%
- Conning Tower: 546 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 3.335 tons, 5,3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 27.482 tons, 43,6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9.020 tons, 14,3%
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 0,7%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
102.181 lbs / 46.348 Kg = 48,6 x 16,1 " / 410 mm shells or 19,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
Metacentric height 9,6 ft / 2,9 m
Roll period: 19,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29,71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31,82 ft / 9,70 m
- Forecastle (25%): 22,64 ft / 6,90 m
- Mid (50%): 22,64 ft / 6,90 m
- Quarterdeck (25%): 22,31 ft / 6,80 m
- Stern: 22,31 ft / 6,80 m
- Average freeboard: 23,43 ft / 7,14 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165,9%
Waterplane Area: 76.765 Square feet or 7.132 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 261 lbs/sq ft or 1.277 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,99
- Longitudinal: 1,13
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe equipment
25 tons Long range Marconi
50 tons flag facilities.
100 tons crew comfort
Belt sloped 12°= Belt height is 20.54 feet/6.26 meter
Quote from: maddox on January 24, 2010, 10:39:46 PMWith such a threat, shouldn't France start making shells with smaller bomblets on a timer? A French 380mm shell can carry -in weight- 19 of the 140mm shells.
OUCH... not the main gun flak round, Maddox.
Down such a path lies madness... ;)
I'm even more crazy. But that will be seen... Gold shells will be cheap compared to the idea I have now.
I'm not so sure how feasible this is. In weight it could carry 19 140mm shells, but in volume may less, especially if you don't want to stack those shells on top of each other.
Also, I'd expect very poor accuracy and range. When fired, the overall round will be imparted with spin by the rifling, but the shells within it upon release would be likely to tumble, I expect.
Possibly at very short ranges, you could expect higher likelihood of hitting something, but those ranges would be well within expected torpedo range. Also, that close, training the big guns sufficiently quickly to hit what you were aiming for, even when firing the metal cloud, would be difficult.
The main battery AA rounds on the Yamatos were barrage antiaircraft weapons, meant to project a cloud of metal fragments at sufficient altitude and distance to deter torpedo bomber attack. Something similar might be useful against destroyers for sweeping the crew from the decks, but again I think you'd have the problem that such a weapon would only be useful inside the expected effective range of the enemy's surface-fired torpedoes.
I see a "BOOMING" business for frogmen armed with limpet mines. ;D
QuoteI see a "BOOMING" business for frogmen armed with limpet mines. ;D
I totally agree. "Buy three frogmen and get the limpet mines for free." :)
Or just substitute Butane for fuel oil...
Can Not Control Myself, ;)Itching-Itching 8) 8):
QuoteEsc Bb laid down 1921
Displacement:
59.734 t light; 62.857 t standard; 66.447 t normal; 69.319 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
851,82 ft / 847,77 ft x 121,39 ft x 34,45 ft (normal load)
259,63 m / 258,40 m x 37,00 m x 10,50 m
Armament:
6 - 17,91" / 455 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2.874,11lbs / 1.303,67kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 17,91" / 455 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2.874,11lbs / 1.303,67kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (12x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
6 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 31.224 lbs / 14.163 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,7" / 400 mm 470,14 ft / 143,30 m 19,06 ft / 5,81 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 7,87" / 200 mm 470,14 ft / 143,30 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,97" / 50 mm 611,22 ft / 186,30 m 29,86 ft / 9,10 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,7" / 400 mm 11,8" / 300 mm 15,7" / 400 mm
2nd: 15,7" / 400 mm 11,8" / 300 mm 15,7" / 400 mm
3rd: 2,95" / 75 mm 1,97" / 50 mm -
- Armour deck: 7,09" / 180 mm, Conning tower: 15,75" / 400 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 135.896 shp / 101.378 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6.463 tons
Complement:
2.069 - 2.690
Cost:
£15,335 million / $61,339 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3.903 tons, 5,9 %
Armour: 25.211 tons, 37,9 %
- Belts: 7.686 tons, 11,6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.329 tons, 2,0 %
- Armament: 5.246 tons, 7,9 %
- Armour Deck: 10.393 tons, 15,6 %
- Conning Tower: 557 tons, 0,8 %
Machinery: 4.680 tons, 7,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 25.190 tons, 37,9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.713 tons, 10,1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 1,1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
80.750 lbs / 36.627 Kg = 28,1 x 17,9 " / 455 mm shells or 12,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,00
Metacentric height 6,7 ft / 2,0 m
Roll period: 19,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,656
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,98 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29,12 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Stern: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Average freeboard: 19,82 ft / 6,04 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82,2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143,7 %
Waterplane Area: 79.271 Square feet or 7.364 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 245 lbs/sq ft or 1.198 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,00
- Longitudinal: 1,03
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Armor disposition :
Upper 50mm
Middledeck 100 mm
Lowerdeck 20mm
Misc Weight:
2x FC :500t
L/RW/L:25 t
Seendes augen :25 t
Flag faciliteies:50 t
Starshells :50 t
Reserve:100t
Main belt outward slope 10 dg
I win! ;D
(http://granitegrok.com/pix/New_Coast_Guard_via_Democratic_leadership.jpg)
Damn ,Thrumphed again :D :D
I miss the 20mm torpedo's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O562VTz7YnU)
QuoteGold shells will be cheap compared to the idea I have now
You might be on to something there:
Swiss Officer: "We've been hit!"
Swiss Captain: "Plot a course for the nearest friendly port! If we make it home, we'll be rich!"
Something with reasonable armor, and guns to have fun with. For an pricetag the politicians can stomache.
QuoteGrande petite, French GBB laid down 1920
Displacement:
35.000 t light; 37.097 t standard; 40.649 t normal; 43.491 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
688,98 ft / 685,70 ft x 91,86 ft (Bulges 111,55 ft) x 29,53 ft (normal load)
210,00 m / 209,00 m x 28,00 m (Bulges 34,00 m) x 9,00 m
Armament:
8 - 16,54" / 420 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2.755,78lbs / 1.250,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 55,12lbs / 25,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 22.934 lbs / 10.403 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 397,70 ft / 121,22 m 20,00 ft / 6,10 m
Ends: 3,00" / 76 mm 287,97 ft / 87,77 m 11,50 ft / 3,51 m
Upper: 3,00" / 76 mm 397,70 ft / 121,22 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 89% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2,75" / 70 mm 397,70 ft / 121,22 m 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 15,0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 49.309 shp / 36.784 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6.394 tons
Complement:
1.430 - 1.860
Cost:
£8,204 million / $32,816 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.386 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 14.951 tons, 36,8%
- Belts: 6.051 tons, 14,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.214 tons, 3,0%
- Armament: 3.799 tons, 9,3%
- Armour Deck: 3.505 tons, 8,6%
- Conning Tower: 382 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.724 tons, 4,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.488 tons, 38,1%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.649 tons, 13,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,1%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57.557 lbs / 26.107 Kg = 25,5 x 16,5 " / 420 mm shells or 11,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
Metacentric height 5,2 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 20,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,30
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,630
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (21%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Quarterdeck (21%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Stern: 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Average freeboard: 19,88 ft / 6,06 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119,6%
Waterplane Area: 47.371 Square feet or 4.401 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 221 lbs/sq ft or 1.077 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,26
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe
25 tons Long range Marconi
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons specialised night fighting equipment
50 tons not assigned
Absolutely not. Insufficiently awe-inspiring. No wine cellar, either.
You really really didnt think that 50 tons unassigned wasnt the wine cellar I mean I can see it fooling the Temperance League suffrigates but nobody else.
Charles
Ahoj!
Immpressive. But IMO the UB is too thin. It will not keep out anything over 6".
The UB not ment to stop more than splinters.
Quote... Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 397,70 ft / 121,22 m 20,00 ft / 6,10 m
Ends: 3,00" / 76 mm 287,97 ft / 87,77 m 11,50 ft / 3,51 m
Upper: 3,00" / 76 mm 397,70 ft / 121,22 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 89% of normal length
Main is excessive in all & 89% is too short
Ends & Upper are insufficient
Jef
Main belt excessive against the 16"+ ESC guns?
And it's actualy an AoN ship with slapped on armor and insulation around the crew quarters. But I'll change a few things.
This better?
QuoteGrande petite, French GBB laid down 1920
Displacement:
35.000 t light; 37.097 t standard; 40.649 t normal; 43.491 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
688,98 ft / 685,70 ft x 91,86 ft (Bulges 111,55 ft) x 29,53 ft (normal load)
210,00 m / 209,00 m x 28,00 m (Bulges 34,00 m) x 9,00 m
Armament:
8 - 16,54" / 420 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2.755,78lbs / 1.250,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 55,12lbs / 25,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 22.934 lbs / 10.403 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 425,13 ft / 129,58 m 19,00 ft / 5,79 m
Ends: 6,00" / 152 mm 260,54 ft / 79,41 m 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
Main Belt covers 95% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2,50" / 64 mm 425,13 ft / 129,58 m 28,17 ft / 8,59 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 15,0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 49.309 shp / 36.784 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6.394 tons
Complement:
1.430 - 1.860
Cost:
£8,204 million / $32,816 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.386 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 14.933 tons, 36,7%
- Belts: 6.139 tons, 15,1%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.108 tons, 2,7%
- Armament: 3.799 tons, 9,3%
- Armour Deck: 3.505 tons, 8,6%
- Conning Tower: 382 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.724 tons, 4,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.506 tons, 38,1%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.649 tons, 13,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,1%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57.234 lbs / 25.961 Kg = 25,3 x 16,5 " / 420 mm shells or 11,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
Metacentric height 5,1 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 20,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,630
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Quarterdeck (18%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Stern: 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Average freeboard: 19,83 ft / 6,05 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119,5%
Waterplane Area: 47.371 Square feet or 4.401 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 221 lbs/sq ft or 1.079 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,23
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe
25 tons Long range Marconi
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons specialised night fighting equipment
50 tons not assigned
UB is over now ?
Jef
AoN ships don't need to carry a Upper belt. But, because you ask so nicely.
QuoteGrande petite, French GBB laid down 1920
Displacement:
35.000 t light; 37.097 t standard; 40.649 t normal; 43.491 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
688,98 ft / 685,70 ft x 91,86 ft (Bulges 111,55 ft) x 29,53 ft (normal load)
210,00 m / 209,00 m x 28,00 m (Bulges 34,00 m) x 9,00 m
Armament:
8 - 16,54" / 420 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2.755,78lbs / 1.250,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 55,12lbs / 25,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 22.934 lbs / 10.403 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 438,85 ft / 133,76 m 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 246,83 ft / 75,23 m 11,50 ft / 3,51 m
Upper: 4,00" / 102 mm 438,85 ft / 133,76 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 98% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2,50" / 64 mm 438,85 ft / 133,76 m 28,17 ft / 8,59 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 15,0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 49.309 shp / 36.784 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6.394 tons
Complement:
1.430 - 1.860
Cost:
£8,204 million / $32,816 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.386 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 14.980 tons, 36,9%
- Belts: 6.150 tons, 15,1%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.144 tons, 2,8%
- Armament: 3.799 tons, 9,3%
- Armour Deck: 3.505 tons, 8,6%
- Conning Tower: 382 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.724 tons, 4,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.459 tons, 38,0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.649 tons, 13,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,1%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57.324 lbs / 26.002 Kg = 25,4 x 16,5 " / 420 mm shells or 11,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
Metacentric height 5,1 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 20,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,28
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,630
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (18%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Quarterdeck (18%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Stern: 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Average freeboard: 19,74 ft / 6,02 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119,6%
Waterplane Area: 47.371 Square feet or 4.401 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 220 lbs/sq ft or 1.077 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,25
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe
25 tons Long range Marconi
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons specialised night fighting equipment
50 tons not assigned
Ok, UB is not neccessary.
so you could have
Ends 152
Main-100%-(18ft ok)
Jef
I like High belts, as long they protect everything important.
Now, this makes you happy Jefgt?
QuoteGrande petite, French GBB laid down 1920
Displacement:
35.003 t light; 37.101 t standard; 40.653 t normal; 43.495 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
688,98 ft / 685,70 ft x 91,86 ft (Bulges 111,55 ft) x 29,53 ft (normal load)
210,00 m / 209,00 m x 28,00 m (Bulges 34,00 m) x 9,00 m
Armament:
8 - 16,54" / 420 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2.755,78lbs / 1.250,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 55,12lbs / 25,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 22.934 lbs / 10.403 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 479,99 ft / 146,30 m 19,00 ft / 5,79 m
Ends: 5,00" / 127 mm 205,69 ft / 62,69 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m
Main Belt covers 108% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2,50" / 64 mm 479,99 ft / 146,30 m 28,00 ft / 8,53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 15,0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 49.313 shp / 36.787 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6.395 tons
Complement:
1.430 - 1.860
Cost:
£8,204 million / $32,817 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.386 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 15.122 tons, 37,2%
- Belts: 6.192 tons, 15,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.243 tons, 3,1%
- Armament: 3.799 tons, 9,3%
- Armour Deck: 3.506 tons, 8,6%
- Conning Tower: 382 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.724 tons, 4,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.351 tons, 37,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.650 tons, 13,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 420 tons, 1,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57.334 lbs / 26.006 Kg = 25,4 x 16,5 " / 420 mm shells or 11,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
Metacentric height 5,2 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 20,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,28
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,630
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (15%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Stern: 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Average freeboard: 19,61 ft / 5,98 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119,6%
Waterplane Area: 47.374 Square feet or 4.401 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 219 lbs/sq ft or 1.070 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,24
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe
25 tons Long range Marconi
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons specialised night fighting equipment
20 tons not assigned
Successors to the Bretagnes, and replacements for the aging Dantons.
QuoteChampagne/Auvergne/Forez/Landau, French Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
29.998 t light; 31.897 t standard; 34.830 t normal; 37.176 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
692,26 ft / 688,98 ft x 114,83 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
211,00 m / 210,00 m x 35,00 m x 8,00 m
Armament:
9 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17.761 lbs / 8.056 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 344,49 ft / 105,00 m 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 77% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 344,49 ft / 105,00 m 24,76 ft / 7,55 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 12,0" / 305 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 44.798 shp / 33.419 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.279 tons
Complement:
1.274 - 1.657
Cost:
£6,562 million / $26,246 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.052 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 11.180 tons, 32,1%
- Belts: 4.091 tons, 11,7%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 631 tons, 1,8%
- Armament: 2.986 tons, 8,6%
- Armour Deck: 3.173 tons, 9,1%
- Conning Tower: 299 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.669 tons, 4,8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.696 tons, 42,2%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.832 tons, 13,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,1%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
54.443 lbs / 24.695 Kg = 32,5 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 10,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 8,1 ft / 2,5 m
Roll period: 16,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,587
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (25%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,73 ft / 5,10 m
- Quarterdeck (25%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75,6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148,6%
Waterplane Area: 57.167 Square feet or 5.311 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1.004 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,21
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The replacements for the aging Dantons.
Misc weigth
250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe
50 tons crew comfort
75 tons to be assigned
That's not a very long belt - only half the ship's waterline is protected.
Good enough to protect everything important. And the middle part of the ship, after all, is the fullest. Buyancy is garantied.
Looks like those Rohirrim 17" guns projected some time back are needed after all.
Quote from: Ithekro on March 07, 2010, 12:40:04 PM
Looks like those Rohirrim 17" guns projected some time back are needed after all.
With Rohan signing the
Washington Richmond treaty pretty unlikely.
Quote from: P3D on March 07, 2010, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: Ithekro on March 07, 2010, 12:40:04 PM
Looks like those Rohirrim 17" guns projected some time back are needed after all.
With Rohan signing the Washington Richmond treaty pretty unlikely.
oh Rohan could still go 17" but I was projecting 15.5/50 with somthing like a 2250 pound shell (under development) as Rohans next big gun.
I see, need thicker deck armor. Time for tumblehome again.
Development does not always mean actual use when it comes to artillery. It would be more a status thing at that point since so far (to my knowledge) there has been no direct area of conflict that would involve French and Rohirrim ships engaging each other.
Also one can probably get a pair of treaty sized battleship on 40,000 tons armed with some 17" guns, though 15.5" is more practical...plus one can place more of them on a hull.
(Rohan oddity note: For whatever reason I was increasing the barrel lengths by 6 calibers on each increase rather than 5. So the next size up from the 42cal would be a 48cal followed by a 54caliber cannon)
One incident of conflict. The Profitable incident.
TUMBLEHOME TIME
QuoteChampagne, French Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
25.000 t light; 26.790 t standard; 29.397 t normal; 31.483 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
626,64 ft / 623,36 ft x 72,18 ft (Bulges 104,99 ft) x 27,56 ft (normal load)
191,00 m / 190,00 m x 22,00 m (Bulges 32,00 m) x 8,40 m
Armament:
9 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1914 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,34" / 34,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,20lbs / 0,54kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 17.756 lbs / 8.054 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 405,18 ft / 123,50 m 16,50 ft / 5,03 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2,00" / 51 mm 405,18 ft / 123,50 m 25,61 ft / 7,81 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40.724 shp / 30.380 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.693 tons
Complement:
1.122 - 1.459
Cost:
£6,133 million / $24,530 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.052 tons, 7,0%
Armour: 9.662 tons, 32,9%
- Belts: 3.962 tons, 13,5%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 768 tons, 2,6%
- Armament: 2.721 tons, 9,3%
- Armour Deck: 1.925 tons, 6,5%
- Conning Tower: 287 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 1.517 tons, 5,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.369 tons, 38,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.397 tons, 15,0%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,4%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32.226 lbs / 14.617 Kg = 19,2 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 6,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
Metacentric height 3,6 ft / 1,1 m
Roll period: 23,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,570
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,74 ft / 8,15 m
- Forecastle (20%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (50%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 17,23 ft / 5,25 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 89,1%
Waterplane Area: 32.009 Square feet or 2.974 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 212 lbs/sq ft or 1.036 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,22
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: TexanCowboy on March 07, 2010, 05:43:21 PM
One incident of conflict. The Profitable incident.
Nope, Officialy the armed merchant sunk by Queen Emeraldas and Fürst Bismarck was not a French Vessel, but a pirate that used the ruse of the French flag to get away.
Also, it was under the premiership of the certified madman Premier Palpaté.
Bad maddox! Bad maddox!
*Thwaps with newspaper*
Of course, at least it isn't dazzlepainted...
;D
On what base are you calling me bad TC? The Profiable "dodging" or the new Champagne 25Kton BB?
The new BB.
I would call you bad for the Profitable, but that deserve's more the title of "Swiss"
Now I feel compelled to commission a drawing with Champagne in Dazzle paint.
(http://uglyships.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/guilty.jpg)
The horror, the horror.
Inspiring...
The advantage of dial-up: time to abort an upload before I have to see it.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on March 07, 2010, 08:34:05 PM
The advantage of dial-up: time to abort an upload before I have to see it.
Be thankfull you have saved your eyes.
An offshoot of Brittanie. Less main guns, but more speed and more distributed armor with a much heavier deck.
QuoteMarteau, French GBB laid down 1920
Displacement:
33.974 t light; 35.972 t standard; 38.309 t normal; 40.177 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
692,26 ft / 688,98 ft x 114,83 ft x 28,87 ft (normal load)
211,00 m / 210,00 m x 35,00 m x 8,80 m
Armament:
9 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 18.137 lbs / 8.227 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 413,39 ft / 126,00 m 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 92% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 413,39 ft / 126,00 m 27,56 ft / 8,40 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 10,0" / 254 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 65.404 shp / 48.791 Kw = 24,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.205 tons
Complement:
1.368 - 1.779
Cost:
£7,726 million / $30,906 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.095 tons, 5,5%
Armour: 14.055 tons, 36,7%
- Belts: 5.720 tons, 14,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 843 tons, 2,2%
- Armament: 2.943 tons, 7,7%
- Armour Deck: 4.230 tons, 11,0%
- Conning Tower: 318 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 2.287 tons, 6,0%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.038 tons, 39,3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.335 tons, 11,3%
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,3%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57.738 lbs / 26.190 Kg = 34,5 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 10,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
Metacentric height 7,9 ft / 2,4 m
Roll period: 17,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,587
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
- Forecastle (22%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Quarterdeck (18%): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Stern: 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Average freeboard: 19,50 ft / 5,94 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146,7%
Waterplane Area: 57.164 Square feet or 5.311 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 205 lbs/sq ft or 1.001 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,32
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 ton BB FC
100 ton cruiser FC- secundaries and AA
50 ton damage control
25 ton Long range marconi
25 ton ERADe
50 ton crew comfort
Simple, cheap and sturdy. A Bretagne hull smoothed down a bit, 1 main gun extra, the old armor sceme replaced by an extensive inclined main belt. Speed up the minimum stated by the agreements between the Nassau partners.
QuoteDanton II class, French Battleship laid down 1920
Displacement:
25.500 t light; 27.290 t standard; 29.313 t normal; 30.932 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 94,49 ft x 28,54 ft (normal load)
170,00 m / 169,00 m x 28,80 m x 8,70 m
Armament:
9 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17.767 lbs / 8.059 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 365,94 ft / 111,54 m 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 102% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 365,94 ft / 111,54 m 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 43.695 shp / 32.596 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.642 tons
Complement:
1.119 - 1.456
Cost:
£6,691 million / $26,764 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.053 tons, 7,0%
Armour: 10.852 tons, 37,0%
- Belts: 4.994 tons, 17,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 812 tons, 2,8%
- Armament: 2.499 tons, 8,5%
- Armour Deck: 2.302 tons, 7,9%
- Conning Tower: 246 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 1.528 tons, 5,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.667 tons, 36,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.813 tons, 13,0%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,4%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34.354 lbs / 15.583 Kg = 20,5 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 5,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
Metacentric height 5,4 ft / 1,7 m
Roll period: 17,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,686
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,87 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (50%): 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Quarterdeck (14%): 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Stern: 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Average freeboard: 16,34 ft / 4,98 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108,6%
Waterplane Area: 41.471 Square feet or 3.853 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 953 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,95
- Longitudinal: 1,62
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
An updated Bretagne design.
250 ton FC
25 ton ERADe equipment
25 ton Long range marconi
50 ton aviation equipment, 2 floatplanes+ gear
50 ton crew comfort
I'm going to comment on the designs in order.
On the first design, you have a ship about 1.5kt lighter then Occitaine, but with three less guns. Is that worth the tradeoff? I'm inclined to think no. Also, do you need a seperate fire control for the secondaries?
On the scond design, I like it. :) I'm not sure if a triple can fit on the beam, considering that the R-class had a 88.5' beam, and the Vittorio Vento class had a 108' beam, but I'll leave that one to people more knowledgable then me on that. Maybe for more of a quirky French feel, the superfiring turret could be placed aft?
Unfortunately, I think Tex is right about the beam. While there aren't very many ships w/ triple 15" guns, those that there are have beams over 31m. There are, however, lots of ships w/ 28m beams, and all of them are triple 12".
Yet the Normandie class could mysteriously mount quad 14"s on a 27m beam. ;)
The diameter for a 15" triple isn't very high and can be fitted into a 94.49ft beam with TDS readily. The high cB of the Danton II also means that slim fore and aft beam (where the guns are) isn't much of a problem.
I like the second design more due to displacement, but I'm would be worried about the immunity zone. The larger calibers guns (16" and greater) mean that the belt isn't so much the problem as the deck. 3" is starting to get thin.
I've wondered for a bit about the Normandie's provisions for torpedo defense. Did she have an interior bulge and holding bulkhead? How deep were those compartments? That could be why she was so narrow.
For the turret, not only do you need space for the barbette diameter, but the supporting structure, sufficient set back for flash protection around the magazines, and then space for the TDS system- which I think would help push that beam requirement out, and require the BC be appropriate so the beam abreast of the turrets is sufficient.
This has a nice beefy BC, but the beam overall is slightly less than the US Nevada, which had triple 14" in a single cradle, cramped turret. However the contempary of this vessel would be the USS Tennessee class- laid down 1917, with triple single sleeved 14", and an improved TDS, and a 97.5 ft / 29.7m beam.
With a Cb of 0.686, it is much fatter than the Nevada at 0.617, to say, it's fatter than even the Pennsylvania (0.650), which carried triple 14"s. The Penn was a pretty fat ship, as from the top down drawings, had quite a bit of free space from gun outer and edge of the beam.
In other words, maybe a slightly less robust TDS system due to the increased triple 15" instead of triple 14" but the wider beam at the gun point due to higher Cb.
QuoteThis has a nice beefy BC, but the beam overall is slightly less than the US Nevada, which had triple 14" in a single cradle, cramped turret. However the contempary of this vessel would be the USS Tennessee class- laid down 1917, with triple single sleeved 14", and an improved TDS, and a 97.5 ft / 29.7m beam.
On the beam there might not be enough space for the rotating ring in the shell handling room.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 11, 2010, 08:36:20 AM
I'm going to comment on the designs in order.
On the first design, you have a ship about 1.5kt lighter then Occitaine, but with three less guns. Is that worth the tradeoff? I'm inclined to think no. Also, do you need a seperate fire control for the secondaries?
The 1500 kton lighter on itself isn't a worthy trade-off for those 3 guns, but the 2 kts faster and the more extensive main armor is.
QuoteOn the second design, I like it. :) I'm not sure if a triple can fit on the beam, considering that the R-class had a 88.5' beam, and the Vittorio Vento class had a 108' beam, but I'll leave that one to people more knowledgable then me on that. Maybe for more of a quirky French feel, the superfiring turret could be placed aft?
I realise the 94.5' beam poses some problems on the barbette and the TB of the Danton II class. On the other hand, if I messure the beam just in front of the forward turret of the tripple 16" armed Iowa I come out on 26m.
The fat form, in contrast to all other French BB's , for the Danton II, gives me that same width, or even more. I believe, with these meassurments, that the beam and hullshape give a good indication of possibility.
Yes, I know that some of the real experts call the Iowa hull form and torpedo defences flawed for WW II norm.
But remember, we're in the Nverse, and the modern French BB's show a reasonable torpedo resilience, after all the experience gathered from all those NS scrapes.
I think it's close, but close enough that no one could say it wouldn't work, at least short of detailed design. It all depends on exactly where the barbettes are, the details of the torpedo defense system, etc. Also, I suspect that adding a meter to the beam and subtracting the displacement from block coefficient wouldn't necessarily make matters any clearer.