For the time being I'm assuming standard history with regard to the battle of the Spanish-American War although with a different peace settlement.
This ship (unnamed right now) was laid down before the start of the Spanish-American war, but work continued slowly due to the huge budget cuts made to the navy after the Rif War and the shift in focus of the Spanish government to the Spanish Army.
Humiliated by the lost colonies after the war, the Spanish government re-instituted a heavy focus on the Spanish navy. In general the series of defeats the Spanish had suffered at the hands of those who were once inferior to them forced great introspection.
QuoteHull-005, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1895
Displacement:
6,126 t light; 6,511 t standard; 7,000 t normal; 7,391 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 60.00 ft x (21.00 / 21.93 ft)
(106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 18.29 m x (6.40 / 6.68 m)
Armament:
4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 40.0 cal guns - 637.82lbs / 289.31kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 40.0 cal guns - 12.94lbs / 5.87kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,688 lbs / 1,673 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Ends: 3.50" / 89 mm 150.00 ft / 45.72 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 10.0" / 254 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,838 ihp / 4,356 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 880 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
382 - 497
Cost:
£0.666 million / $2.665 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 659 tons, 9.4 %
- Guns: 659 tons, 9.4 %
Armour: 2,257 tons, 32.2 %
- Belts: 1,157 tons, 16.5 %
- Armament: 507 tons, 7.2 %
- Armour Deck: 498 tons, 7.1 %
- Conning Tower: 95 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 990 tons, 14.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,220 tons, 31.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 874 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,587 lbs / 2,988 Kg = 9.9 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.556 / 0.562
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 66.1 %
Waterplane Area: 14,732 Square feet or 1,369 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 124 lbs/sq ft or 607 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.69
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Quite verticly short belts there
Well it was because the freeboard is so low. The upper belt has to cover a height in multiples of deck height.
I assume 6 ft tall deck heights are the bare minimum and so I had to cut the main belt height (it's 50% above and below waterline by default in SS) so that there was one deck height above the main belt.
I couldn't make the freeboard be higher because that would easily force 500 more tons on the ship.
uhm Logi just a few minor issues that realy jump out at me.
Issues
1: uhm dont you think that freeboard is just a tad low for an ocean going ship?
2: BC isnt bad (actualy lowish for period BBs) but with that L-B IDK if you would actualy have room for all the guns (im realy concernd about how well your twin 11" turrets would fit at the ends)
3: isnt 16 knots a tad slow realy anything could run it down or run away from it...
Oh and a question who are you buying your 11" guns from? the shell weight is off for the german 11/40 (should be 529)
I also note that 8" L45 are just a bit advanced, L40 would be better. That will save some tonnage.
Quote1: uhm dont you think that freeboard is just a tad low for an ocean going ship?
If it ever decides to go for service in Africa, yes. The waves would force no combat on the ship - although SS says it can go through the weather. It would just never be able to fire in the weather.
However in the Mediterranean Sea, the coast off Iberia (Atlantic side), and the area around the Philippines the waves are relatively calm and this amount of freeboard would have no problems.
Of course the slow speed of the ship helps too - it doesn't generate much bow wave.
Quote2: BC isnt bad (actualy lowish for period BBs) but with that L-B IDK if you would actualy have room for all the guns (im realy concernd about how well your twin 11" turrets would fit at the ends)
Well I looked at historical ships. Length is not an issue, although the beam could possibly be trouble. However, the two 8" guns are at midships where there is the widest beam. It also has comparatively fewest guns in total compared to other ships in the period. It carries 8 small secondaries whilst out ships of the period carries 8-10 and eliminates the rest of the guns for 2 twin 8"s.
But I would have preferred a larger BC if I had the composite strength - which is likely once I reduce the secondary to L40 and correct te shell weight (I was indeed thinking of buying from Krupp).
Quote3: isnt 16 knots a tad slow realy anything could run it down or run away from it...
There shouldn't be a need to chase anything - given the lack of capacity and the recent lost of a fleet the Spanish Navy doesn't have the ability to chase. Also, even the 2 kts to 18 kts is expensive - costing about 0.30 composite strength. So until there's improved engine technology the ship won't be getting much faster. The typical pre-dreadnought speed is 18 kts, the fast ones are 20 or faster. But faster are either weaker or significantly larger - which isn't then a concern. The typical enemy ship isn't fast enough to run away.
I know this for sure because in N4 there was a simmed battle between the RRC and Russian navy where the RRC was simmed at not being able to get away due to only 2 kts of speed difference and was thus destroyed. ::)
If a tiny ship can force other ships to run from it, hasn't it completed it mission of area denial? The mission of a battleship is to secure an area, not engage ships - it's just a side-effect of the mission.
QuoteOh and a question who are you buying your 11" guns from? the shell weight is off for the german 11/40 (should be 529)
QuoteI also note that 8" L45 are just a bit advanced, L40 would be better. That will save some tonnage.
Thanks guys, I'll fix as soon as possible.
Correct the guns - increased forecastle freeboard, not SS rates as 1.21 seakeeping. BC increased to 0.594 and beam increased from 60' to 62'.
QuoteHull-005, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1895
Displacement:
6,149 t light; 6,506 t standard; 7,000 t normal; 7,395 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 62.00 ft x (19.00 / 19.88 ft)
(106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 18.90 m x (5.79 / 6.06 m)
Armament:
4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 40.0 cal guns - 529.00lbs / 239.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 40.0 cal guns - 245.35lbs / 111.29kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 40.0 cal guns - 12.94lbs / 5.87kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,201 lbs / 1,452 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Ends: 3.50" / 89 mm 150.00 ft / 45.72 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 10.7" / 273 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,957 ihp / 4,444 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 889 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
382 - 497
Cost:
£0.655 million / $2.619 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 623 tons, 8.9 %
- Guns: 623 tons, 8.9 %
Armour: 2,315 tons, 33.1 %
- Belts: 1,168 tons, 16.7 %
- Armament: 518 tons, 7.4 %
- Armour Deck: 534 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Tower: 95 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 1,010 tons, 14.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,202 tons, 31.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 851 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,278 lbs / 3,301 Kg = 10.9 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.594 / 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.65 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.65 ft / 2.94 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.6 %
Waterplane Area: 15,786 Square feet or 1,467 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 118 lbs/sq ft or 578 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I'm dubious about a 6' deck height: that means that anyone over about 5'8" is walking around with a permanent stoop, proabbly want to go to a 2m/7' height here. The speed is perfectly in-period, certainly the USN has a number of ships of similar speed (USS Indiana, for instance). Length matches up with the Indianas as well, and the Indianas carried more weapons on that hull (they were wider and substantially deeper). I would be rather worried about TBs in this design, though, with only 4 quick-firing guns per side you're pretty vulnerable to a charge.
Quote...with only 4 quick-firing guns per side you're pretty vulnerable to a charge.
Decrease armor of belt or turrets to have 12 to 16 guns.
305 to 300
356 to 350
Jef
Having spent a bit of time on a ship or 2 in my life (admitedly modern US ships but ships none the less), and having toured Mikasa a couple times, I figure minimum for a 6 foot useable deck height is 7 foot decks (there are all kinds of pipes and crap in the overhead).
Honestly Logi its a decent effort, that said I think your just trying to do to much on to little tonage. I made that mistake in N2/N3 as did several others we ended up with ships that all we could realy do with was scrap them when their original service lives were over.
*edit*
My original 6 startup predreads are all gone, si I can't link you to them but none of them were over 7K tons light and while they technicly worked Cramped dosnt even begin to describe their problems LOL.
Quote from: KWorld on September 21, 2012, 02:49:54 AMI'm dubious about a 6' deck height: that means that anyone over about 5'8" is walking around with a permanent stoop, probably want to go to a 2m/7' height here.
Actually very few people on Earth at 1900 were above 5' 8" tall. The average height in Spain in 1895-1900 for example was 164.27 cm or 5' 3.8". This average height increased at about a rate of 1 cm per 5-10 years.
It's not a worry for a long long time.
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 21, 2012, 09:25:42 AM
Having spent a bit of time on a ship or 2 in my life (admitedly modern US ships but ships none the less), and having toured Mikasa a couple times, I figure minimum for a 6 foot useable deck height is 7 foot decks (there are all kinds of pipes and crap in the overhead).
Interesting so I'll raise the freeboard.
Modified - 7' decks and increase of tertiary guns (3") from 8 to 12. Main belt thickness increased to 14" from 12".
Added 500 tons to normal displacement.
QuoteHull-005, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1895
Displacement:
6,615 t light; 6,991 t standard; 7,500 t normal; 7,908 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 62.00 ft x (22.00 / 22.94 ft)
(106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 18.90 m x (6.71 / 6.99 m)
Armament:
4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 40.0 cal guns - 529.00lbs / 239.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 40.0 cal guns - 245.35lbs / 111.29kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 40.0 cal guns - 12.94lbs / 5.87kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,253 lbs / 1,475 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 190.00 ft / 57.91 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 160.00 ft / 48.77 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 190.00 ft / 57.91 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 10.5" / 267 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.10" / 53 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,090 ihp / 4,543 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 917 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
402 - 523
Cost:
£0.677 million / $2.706 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 631 tons, 8.4 %
- Guns: 631 tons, 8.4 %
Armour: 2,662 tons, 35.5 %
- Belts: 1,464 tons, 19.5 %
- Armament: 564 tons, 7.5 %
- Armour Deck: 535 tons, 7.1 %
- Conning Tower: 99 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 1,032 tons, 13.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,290 tons, 30.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 885 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,048 lbs / 3,650 Kg = 12.1 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.556
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.65 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Average freeboard: 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75.3 %
Waterplane Area: 15,142 Square feet or 1,407 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 590 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.90
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
This one's a good deal better. Shows a bit of a French influence in the gun layout, which is perfectly appropriate in a 1895 Spanish design.
A later one-off variant - modification of the Hull-005 design with replacing the secondary 8" with the main caliber.
The main caliber is switched to the new (at 1898) 12"/40 offered by Armstrong Whitworth.
The hull is increased in all dimensions for a total of an additional 2,500 ton of weight over the previous class. The guns are arranged, as before, in the hexagonal style of the French.
QuoteHull-006, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1898
Displacement:
8,808 t light; 9,415 t standard; 9,996 t normal; 10,460 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(380.00 ft / 380.00 ft) x 70.00 ft x (24.00 / 24.88 ft)
(115.82 m / 115.82 m) x 21.34 m x (7.32 / 7.58 m)
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 849.99lbs / 385.55kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1898 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 14.29lbs / 6.48kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1898 Model
12 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,971 lbs / 3,162 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 219.00 ft / 66.75 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: 4.50" / 114 mm 161.00 ft / 49.07 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 219.00 ft / 66.75 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,128 ihp / 5,317 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,046 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
499 - 649
Cost:
£1.028 million / $4.114 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,073 tons, 10.7 %
- Guns: 1,073 tons, 10.7 %
Armour: 3,342 tons, 33.4 %
- Belts: 1,672 tons, 16.7 %
- Armament: 923 tons, 9.2 %
- Armour Deck: 627 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 120 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,150 tons, 11.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,244 tons, 32.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,187 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,456 lbs / 4,289 Kg = 10.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.548 / 0.553
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Average freeboard: 10.92 ft / 3.33 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75.1 %
Waterplane Area: 18,529 Square feet or 1,721 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 702 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 1.93
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Espania in 1896, NOPE... 8" twins on the wings no problem, 10" twins on the wings ehhhhh proly ok, 12" twins on the wings just not gona happen. Its a dreadnaught type and that isnt allowed till like 1905ish per the rules, course if you want 12" twins on the wings you could always put like 13.5" twins for the main guns, and later on jerk them out and refit with a 12" tripple.
This design will not be allowed. It violates the capital ship architecture rules for the level that will be allowed at game start (1890: Mixed main armament with double turrets+casemates). Willful ignorance of the rules that are in place will have consequences. You should know better then this.
I haven't even looked at the rules in detail so calm your horses before you go labeling things as "willful ignorance". I posted because I didn't see a huge problem because I thought it was an incremental improvement.
The only thing I changed - literally - is replaced the 8" wing with 12" wing. Which I didn't find to be so off considering the base and certainly did not consider it a dreadnought. I throwing ideas on how the ship would change if I increased the allowed tonnage.
However if it is unsuitable, I can have another go at an incremental improvement. Which is difficult because the armor is quite sufficient, and having the speed change provides little to no benefit for a fleet action.
You should know them from N3 as they are basically the same as far as Capital ship Architecture is concerned. There may be one change, but it will still not allow the design to be built.
Ignorance of the law (or rules) is not an excuse. Iregardless of how you "viewed" the ship it is clearly a violation of the rules which you should have known from N3 (after all we took that part virtualy intact from N3)
Quote from: Logi on September 25, 2012, 04:01:41 PM
I haven't even looked at the rules in detail so calm your horses before you go labeling things as "willful ignorance". I posted because I didn't see a huge problem because I thought it was an incremental improvement.
The only thing I changed - literally - is replaced the 8" wing with 12" wing. Which I didn't find to be so off considering the base and certainly did not consider it a dreadnought. I throwing ideas on how the ship would change if I increased the allowed tonnage.
However if it is unsuitable, I can have another go at an incremental improvement. Which is difficult because the armor is quite sufficient, and having the speed change provides little to no benefit for a fleet action.
Standard incremental improvement at the time was to add more secondaries: 2 guns per side could easily be seen as inadequate, especially when compared to the American Indianas and Iowas that had 4 turreted 8" guns on either beam.
Neither 12" end or wing turrets are a problem on their own, both makes it a Dreadnought though.
Anyway, discussing ships and checking for errors is why we post ships in the first place is it not? Could have been an accident after all, plus no damage done.
I'm going to ignore the harping and knee-jerk reactions above. Not only are you guys making a mountain out of a molehill for a design I posted for feedback - you even going far enough accuse me of "willful ignorance" as if I've broken a rule by placing a design up for review.
Thanks - great to know how friendly you are about feedback - worse than youtube comments.
Quote from: Nobody on September 25, 2012, 04:17:48 PM
Neither 12" end or wing turrets are a problem on their own, both makes it a Dreadnought though.
Anyway, discussing ships and checking for errors is why we post ships in the first place is it not? Could have been an accident after all, plus no damage done.
Well then I'll keep that in mind. And it was an accident as you think it might be.
Quote from: KWorld on September 25, 2012, 04:15:33 PM
Standard incremental improvement at the time was to add more secondaries: 2 guns per side could easily be seen as inadequate, especially when compared to the American Indianas and Iowas that had 4 turreted 8" guns on either beam.
The problem I had with this approach (and I had thought about it) was that I'm not sure how much space I have on the ship for more guns. That is why I resorted to simplification rather than proliferation.
Ignore them all you want. The points made still stand.
the bigest problem all your proposed ships thus far have had Logi is lack of space. Mostly this is caused by the limited tonage your allowing them to have, I imagine this is mostly due to trying to cram as many "battleships" into your aloted starting tonnage as you can. IMHO that isnt the answer (voice of experiance here) You would be better off trying to build truely capable units on reasonable Tonnage than trying to cram as much as you can into a hull that honestly shortly after startup will be more or less useless (puting you in the posistion of having to scrap that hull and build a replacement).
Granted this is just my opinion but it is based on my experiences in N2/N3
Quote from: Logi on September 25, 2012, 04:34:12 PM
Quote from: KWorld on September 25, 2012, 04:15:33 PM
Standard incremental improvement at the time was to add more secondaries: 2 guns per side could easily be seen as inadequate, especially when compared to the American Indianas and Iowas that had 4 turreted 8" guns on either beam.
The problem I had with this approach (and I had thought about it) was that I'm not sure how much space I have on the ship for more guns. That is why I resorted to simplification rather than proliferation.
Sizewise, it shouldn't be a problem: USS
Iowa was 360'/110m long and 72'/22m across the beam. The
Indianas were a hair shorter than Iowa and not as wide as your design.
If you want 4T2 on a ship early in the game, I could LD in 1898 a Dupleix cruiser for Iberia.
Jef
As noted in the French thread, that ship will need to be reviewed.
Quote from: Jefgte on September 25, 2012, 05:42:08 PM
If you want 4T2 on a ship early in the game, I could LD in 1898 a Dupleix cruiser for Iberia.
Assuming that it goes through all the reviews without problem that would be wonderful Jef :)
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 25, 2012, 04:42:25 PM
the bigest problem all your proposed ships thus far have had Logi is lack of space. Mostly this is caused by the limited tonage your allowing them to have, I imagine this is mostly due to trying to cram as many "battleships" into your aloted starting tonnage as you can. IMHO that isnt the answer (voice of experiance here) You would be better off trying to build truely capable units on reasonable Tonnage than trying to cram as much as you can into a hull that honestly shortly after startup will be more or less useless (puting you in the posistion of having to scrap that hull and build a replacement).
The problem here then is my design style - I love to minimize ships to the bare minimums needs to adequately handle it's mission. In fact - even when given unlimited resources I will limit the tonnage because that's where I find the fun in designing things - min-max optimization. I haven't actually calculated the amount of tonnage Spain will have anyhow - since to do that I have to assume the complete losses of the Carribean squadron as OTL. I don't know specifically the tonnages of the ships involved and lost.
But on another note - you insist that the ship I put forth is not "truly capable" and I need to have "reasonable tonnage" but you haven't given me a clear reason as to why it's not a good ship. Tonnage for the sake of tonnage is not a reason - given that there were similar ships of the same tonnage, length, and beam in the period.
Look at the Indiana and Iowa classes.
The difference - the Iowa class is 17.5 kts vs H-005's 16 kt and carries 2x2 more 8" secondaries. The Iowa class also has a lot more tertiary guns and even torpedo tubes.
The difference is 2,840 in tonnage and 10 more ft of beam - Where does this difference come from?
- I already mentioned that an increase in 1 kt of speed was 0.3 composite strength and it also makes for a longer main belt.
As proof - H-005 uses 6,091 hp whereas the Iowa used 11,000 hp - almost double.
- The Iowa has almost double the bunker size at max displacement (SS offers normal as well but the data I got only shows Iowa at standard and max)
- It has double the heavy secondary (weight and deck space)
- It has 4 above-deck torpedo tubes (deck space)
- It has a much thicker deck (3" on Iowa vs 2" on H-005)
Another example would be the Austria-Hungarian Habsburg class.
The Habsburg class was 8,200 tons with a length of 371' (waterline) and beam of 65' - quite similar to the H-005 design.
Lets look at the differences that makes up 21' of length, 3' of beam, and 700 tons.
- The Habsburg class runs at 19.6 kts with a total power of 15,063 hp. The H-005 design runs 2 kt slow and has less than two-fifth that power.
Btw, larger machinery power = larger space consumed by machinery meaning given the relative same length - a wider or deeper ship is needed.
Wait - previous I mentioned the huge difference speed makes to tonnage so why is Habsburg class still so light?
It has much less armor (belt-wise) and a smaller main battery caliber (9.4" vs 11").
But if we look at the schematic we see it is pretty reasonable to fit 11" in the 9.4" slot and 8" on the side midship replacing the 5.9"s. (8" is only barely 3' larger in diameter than a 6")
In conclusion I think the H-005 is not an example of trying too much on too little (given similar ships of that time) but a different focus. H-005 is focused on firepower and staying power whereas the other ships were more slanted towards speed. I don't believe speed is a major point of interest in fleet doctrine (Spain has a long history of operation as a fleet rather than as a single unit) until the Russo-Japanese War (which hasn't happened yet).
Logi, you can build whatever you want but my advice would be to consider future needs not just curent capabilities. A 16 knot ship is little more than a target even in 1896, even the slower ships built by nations like the UK and USA could maintain their ideal range on you. Ships like the REs would not only be able to maintain ideal range but easily outrun you if they so chose. What you realy realy need is cruisers... ACs, PCs, & DDs, you need to be in more places than a few BBs can be. As to your aloted BP that would be 135 (5 years / 10 turns) and thats for everything (including army, forts, ports, Docks, and Ships). so spend carefuly especialy since we are about to go live.
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 25, 2012, 09:43:06 PM
Logi, you can build whatever you want but my advice would be to consider future needs not just curent capabilities. A 16 knot ship is little more than a target even in 1896, even the slower ships built by nations like the UK and USA could maintain their ideal range on you. Ships like the REs would not only be able to maintain ideal range but easily outrun you if they so chose. What you realy realy need is cruisers... ACs, PCs, & DDs, you need to be in more places than a few BBs can be. As to your aloted BP that would be 135 (5 years / 10 turns) and thats for everything (including army, forts, ports, Docks, and Ships). so spend carefuly especialy since we are about to go live.
My counterpoint:
1. Speed is expensive and produces a significantly less useful but larger ship. What does it matter that your ship goes 22 kts if it has no A2/AD capabilities?
2. Slow ships - so long as they have staying power and firepower have their range of A2/AD.
Why do we even assume ships can maintain their "ideal" range? This is the time before the advent of long range gunnery. And you also maintain that 16 kt is slow - whereas many fleets of the world were 16 kts at this time and even in fleet action the faster speed ships would have to slow down to the slowest ship (often 16kt or less).3. The size of a cruiser (I am going to get them) would be about the size of the battleship if I wanted a great deal of speed on that hull. For example, look at the french Dupleix for 6 kts, the armor and firepower is for practical intent nonexistent.
Basically this - a slow ship can deny area provided it has staying power and firepower but fast ships can't do anything if the enemy sails the capital ships to blockade you. Speed means nothing if you can't dmg them - that's my opinion on the matter anyways.
Also I mentioned the problem wasn't the total BP I have to spend - but that I don't know the tonnage amount for the ships in the Spanish-American War that I have to subtract from my total BP.
As far as losses during the S-A War go, looks like 22K tons will cover it without a problem. In fact, you'd probably only need to "pay" for the loss of Cristobal Colon and the two destroyers, the other ships were laid down and completed before the 5 years we're starting at. If we look at it that way, 7K tons will cover the losses (Cristobal Colon is about 6500 tons light, especially since she was missing her 10" guns), the two DDs were about 250 tons light).
Speed mostly depends on the date: for a 1895 ship, 16 knots is perfectly reasonable, plenty of them out there. For a ship with an 1898 or 1899 date, 16 knots is a bit slow, most navies new capital ships were faster than that. Speeds expensive, yes, and there's some limits on how well you can use them if you're operating in a battleline with 16 knot ships. But how much longer will those 16 knot ships be around? Will your battleline ALWAYS have a speed of 16 knots (a la the USN with the Standards, until they broke the pattern with USS South Dakota)?
Since I'm of the thought process that higher speed is not useful if there are slower ships in the fleet - the capitals will only get faster when the fleet is larger enough or the amount of composite strength required for higher speed becomes much lower.
In other words, the fleet won't get incremental speed increases with successive classes but all-at-once leaps in speed.
For example, say everything in 1895-1905 is 16 kt in fleet, then after the standard speed becomes 24 kts - so on.
- Also thanks for the calculation KWorld. So I'll just subtract 7k ton from my starting amount.
A protected cruiser - There wasn't a feasible way to reduce tonnage while having the same firepower and engine speed/range.
4 kts faster than main fleet with two British 9.2"/40 guns. The additional 1000nm range allows it to traverse the African's colonies more easily.
QuoteHull-007, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1896
Displacement:
3,172 t light; 3,293 t standard; 3,700 t normal; 4,026 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 43.00 ft x (17.00 / 18.13 ft)
(106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 13.11 m x (5.18 / 5.53 m)
Armament:
2 - 9.20" / 234 mm 40.0 cal guns - 380.01lbs / 172.37kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1896 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1896 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1896 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 923 lbs / 419 kg
Main Torpedoes
2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.491 t each, 0.982 t total
submerged bow tubes
2nd Torpedoes
1 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedo - 0.491 t total
submerged stern tube
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.50" / 38 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.00" / 76 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,863 ihp / 6,612 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 733 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
236 - 308
Cost:
£0.382 million / $1.530 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 215 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 212 tons, 5.7 %
- Weapons: 3 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 495 tons, 13.4 %
- Armament: 103 tons, 2.8 %
- Armour Deck: 376 tons, 10.2 %
- Conning Tower: 15 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,437 tons, 38.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,026 tons, 27.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 528 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,784 lbs / 809 Kg = 4.6 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.506 / 0.516
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.59 ft / 2.92 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 145.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75.1 %
Waterplane Area: 10,084 Square feet or 937 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 75 lbs/sq ft or 365 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.32
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
this ship... im not sure what it actualy is you called it a PC but you left out the side belt we agreed was necessary to sim a PC long long ago, but then you did use BB/AC layout rules on the guns so technicly its an AC but that unarmored freeboard looks unwise... well unless you plan to drop em down around 1K tons then who cares
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 26, 2012, 05:10:34 PM
this ship... im not sure what it actualy is you called it a PC but you left out the side belt we agreed was necessary to sim a PC long long ago, but then you did use BB/AC layout rules on the guns so technicly its an AC but that unarmored freeboard looks unwise... well unless you plan to drop em down around 1K tons then who cares
Let me this straight - protected cruisers need a side belt but aren't allowed turrets.
Then what's the difference between protected cruiser and a light cruiser? What advantage does it have? I thought the advantage was that the turtle-back deck allows you to have no side belt (coal serving as buffer) - abet at the expense of the protection of everything above.
In fact in DF's Netherlands design thread he posted a design with no belt and single turreted 8.27" guns. You responded:
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 19, 2012, 09:44:52 AM
*checks his pulse* Yup im still alive... DF im impresed, its slowish and has armor (although with the lack of a belt I assume its a PC) a great departure from what us vets had come to expect from you, and here I am planing to produce a 20+ knot battleship with tinclading (oh how the roles have reversed eh I honestly expected a version of your super cruisers).
Since you defined it in that thread through your rely that a ship with turreted 8.27" guns with no side belt is assumed to be a PC I thought my design fit into those standards.
I'm not sure on the difference then - I've never had to sim them either during N3.
PCs are suposed to have a 4' high belt to simulate the turtlebacking (since SS3 like SS2 assumes all decks are flat even if you pick protected deck) the guns are fine though, I was more rambling and trying to figure out where the ship fit. Posibly the rules have changed on the 4' tall belt but I didnt notice anything changing them.
In 4.5 we were using 5' high belts to simulate the turtle decking. This is, effectively, a very small version of one of the British 1st class protected cruisers, or a baby Garibaldi or Cristobal Colon.
On the ship itself, the layout of the 3" guns won't work: the deck mounts will be in the way of the casemates. Either the deck mounts need to go up a level, or the casemate need to go down, or something.
A real eggshell armed with a sledgehammer: against other cruisers, the only weapons she has that will sting are the 9.2s and the torps, the 3" guns are too small to do much, and are short of ammunition given their rate of fire. The 9.2s, on a small ship like this, are probably going to have a hard time.
Quote from: KWorld on September 26, 2012, 06:42:09 PMOn the ship itself, the layout of the 3" guns won't work: the deck mounts will be in the way of the casemates. Either the deck mounts need to go up a level, or the casemate need to go down, or something.
I'll fix that.
Quote from: KWorld on September 26, 2012, 06:42:09 PMA real eggshell armed with a sledgehammer: against other cruisers, the only weapons she has that will sting are the 9.2s and the torps, the 3" guns are too small to do much, and are short of ammunition given their rate of fire. The 9.2s, on a small ship like this, are probably going to have a hard time.
The thing is looking at her competition (the same size) she has larger main guns (9.2" vs 8.27" or 6") and comparable armor, speed, and ammo load.
So a slight change - addition of 6" secondary with reduced number of 3" tertiary.
Protected deck corrected by inclusion of 4' tall belt.
Tonnage increased by 300.
QuoteHull-007, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1896
Displacement:
3,436 t light; 3,573 t standard; 4,000 t normal; 4,341 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 43.00 ft x (18.00 / 19.17 ft)
(106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 13.11 m x (5.49 / 5.84 m)
Armament:
2 - 9.20" / 234 mm 40.0 cal guns - 380.01lbs / 172.37kg shells, 60 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1896 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1896 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1896 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,283 lbs / 582 kg
Main Torpedoes
2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.491 t each, 0.982 t total
submerged bow tubes
2nd Torpedoes
1 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedo - 0.491 t total
submerged stern tube
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 145 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.70" / 94 mm 1.50" / 38 mm 1.50" / 38 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.00" / 76 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,332 ihp / 6,962 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 768 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
250 - 326
Cost:
£0.418 million / $1.671 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 271 tons, 6.8 %
- Guns: 268 tons, 6.7 %
- Weapons: 3 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 591 tons, 14.8 %
- Belts: 103 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 92 tons, 2.3 %
- Armour Deck: 380 tons, 9.5 %
- Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,518 tons, 38.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,056 tons, 26.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 564 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,894 lbs / 859 Kg = 4.9 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.38
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.517 / 0.527
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.81 ft / 2.99 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 144.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 72.5 %
Waterplane Area: 10,183 Square feet or 946 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 77 lbs/sq ft or 376 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Basically a smaller OTL Elswick class protected cruiser.
QuoteHull-008, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1895
Displacement:
1,303 t light; 1,401 t standard; 1,500 t normal; 1,579 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(250.00 ft / 250.00 ft) x 32.00 ft x (13.00 / 13.52 ft)
(76.20 m / 76.20 m) x 9.75 m x (3.96 / 4.12 m)
Armament:
2 - 9.40" / 239 mm 40.0 cal guns - 380.01lbs / 172.37kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,381 lbs / 626 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.474 t each, 2.845 t total
In 6 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.50" / 64 mm - -
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,794 ihp / 2,830 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 2,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 179 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
119 - 156
Cost:
£0.178 million / $0.710 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 201 tons, 13.4 %
- Guns: 196 tons, 13.0 %
- Weapons: 6 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 184 tons, 12.3 %
- Belts: 37 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 44 tons, 3.0 %
- Armour Deck: 100 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 520 tons, 34.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 398 tons, 26.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 197 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
733 lbs / 333 Kg = 1.8 x 9.4 " / 239 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.46
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 10.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.505 / 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 8.50 ft / 2.59 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 7.50 ft / 2.29 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.50 ft / 2.29 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 8.09 ft / 2.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 149.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.6 %
Waterplane Area: 5,354 Square feet or 497 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 74 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 62 lbs/sq ft or 301 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.00
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
A 24cm deck mount? That must be a fun thought for the gunners. Not to mention a terrific fire hazard, with those big powder bags in lockers on the fore and aft decks.
Quote from: KWorld on September 27, 2012, 05:25:11 AM
A 24cm deck mount? That must be a fun thought for the gunners. Not to mention a terrific fire hazard, with those big powder bags in lockers on the fore and aft decks.
Agreed, mount and hoist definitely needed!
Per the rules it requires a turret or a turret on a barbette... thing would be a bear to turn, or load on that small of a deck, after all tis a 25+ ton gun. The 9.2 british was a 25 ton gun(and from what I can tell only ever turret mounted) so I assume a 9.4 would be heavier... Not fun seams a mild description.
Quote from: eltf177 on September 27, 2012, 07:36:50 AM
Quote from: KWorld on September 27, 2012, 05:25:11 AM
A 24cm deck mount? That must be a fun thought for the gunners. Not to mention a terrific fire hazard, with those big powder bags in lockers on the fore and aft decks.
Agreed, mount and hoist definitely needed!
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 27, 2012, 09:11:28 AM
Per the rules it requires a turret or a turret on a barbette... thing would be a bear to turn, or load on that small of a deck, after all tis a 25+ ton gun. The 9.2 british was a 25 ton gun(and from what I can tell only ever turret mounted) so I assume a 9.4 would be heavier... Not fun seams a mild description.
Quote from: eltf177 on September 27, 2012, 07:36:50 AM
Quote from: KWorld on September 27, 2012, 05:25:11 AM
A 24cm deck mount? That must be a fun thought for the gunners. Not to mention a terrific fire hazard, with those big powder bags in lockers on the fore and aft decks.
Agreed, mount and hoist definitely needed!
The 24cm Krupp gun was also only ever mounted in a turret, same with the 24cm Guillen gun from Spain. The 24cm Guillen was a 22.5 ton gun, not counting breech, while the Krupp gun was a 24 ton gun. So yeah, not fun.
Ya, this design will need a turret if it retains that gun.
Well okay but I was unsure about the mount style on the Elswick class.
The same ship (+500 tons) with turrets for the 9.4"s.
QuoteHull-008, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1895
Displacement:
1,778 t light; 1,882 t standard; 2,000 t normal; 2,094 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(250.00 ft / 250.00 ft) x 39.00 ft x (14.50 / 15.01 ft)
(76.20 m / 76.20 m) x 11.89 m x (4.42 / 4.58 m)
Armament:
2 - 9.40" / 239 mm 40.0 cal guns - 380.01lbs / 172.37kg shells, 70 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,381 lbs / 626 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.474 t each, 2.845 t total
In 6 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,617 ihp / 3,444 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 2,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 213 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
149 - 194
Cost:
£0.247 million / $0.987 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 297 tons, 14.8 %
- Guns: 291 tons, 14.5 %
- Weapons: 6 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 221 tons, 11.0 %
- Belts: 37 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 59 tons, 3.0 %
- Armour Deck: 121 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 659 tons, 32.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 602 tons, 30.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 222 tons, 11.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
897 lbs / 407 Kg = 2.2 x 9.4 " / 239 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.495 / 0.501
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 8.43 ft / 2.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 148.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.8 %
Waterplane Area: 6,468 Square feet or 601 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 75 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 81 lbs/sq ft or 395 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.28
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
An alternative - without the 9.4" guns but lighter.
QuoteHull-009, Iberia Unprotected Cruiser laid down 1895
Displacement:
868 t light; 922 t standard; 1,000 t normal; 1,062 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(250.00 ft / 250.00 ft) x 28.00 ft x (10.00 / 10.47 ft)
(76.20 m / 76.20 m) x 8.53 m x (3.05 / 3.19 m)
Armament:
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 621 lbs / 282 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.474 t each, 2.845 t total
In 6 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.20" / 30 mm - -
2nd: 1.20" / 30 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 1.35" / 34 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,597 ihp / 2,684 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 2,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 140 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
88 - 115
Cost:
£0.118 million / $0.474 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 96 tons, 9.6 %
- Guns: 90 tons, 9.0 %
- Weapons: 6 tons, 0.6 %
Armour: 23 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 2.0 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 443 tons, 44.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 306 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
441 lbs / 200 Kg = 4.1 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.51
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 9.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 8.50 ft / 2.59 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.97 ft / 2.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 168.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75.6 %
Waterplane Area: 4,664 Square feet or 433 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 50 lbs/sq ft or 243 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
And all my cruisers say NOMNOMNOM. The all need to be faster IMO.
Quote from: snip on September 27, 2012, 12:52:52 PM
And all my cruisers say NOMNOMNOM. The all need to be faster IMO.
Agreed personaly, the speed is a bit slow but given that the rest of his fleet is slowish, slowish cruisers would be ok for it (even if they would get smoked by slightly heavier faster cruisers).
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 27, 2012, 09:11:28 AM
Per the rules it requires a turret or a turret on a barbette... thing would be a bear to turn, or load on that small of a deck, after all tis a 25+ ton gun. The 9.2 british was a 25 ton gun(and from what I can tell only ever turret mounted) so I assume a 9.4 would be heavier... Not fun seams a mild description.
Actually the 1892 (?) BB Victoria carried a shielded 9.2-inch gun aft. There were several cruisers with deck-mounted 10-inch guns but these seem to have been limited to end-on fire only. I would technically allow mount and hoist but training and ROF will be _slow_, not to mention crew discomfort in anything but clear, cool, calm weather plus vulnerability when facing an enemy...
Quote from: snip on September 27, 2012, 12:52:52 PM
And all my cruisers say NOMNOMNOM. The all need to be faster IMO.
But your cruisers are all 3 times or more in size compared to mine. Where you have one, I have three.
Not to mention the armament on both is much larger than anything in their tonnage range. The unprotected has armament better that your 3kton cruisers while the protected one has armament the equivalent of a 10kton cruiser.
To say your cruiser wins absolutely would be a falsity - it would be a wash. As I've stated before - what does it matter whether a ship has speed or not if it can't risk getting close? My slower ships still have more powerful A2/AD than a similar faster ship.
Edit: Also note your ships aren't that much faster - only 1 kt faster than the unprotected and 2 kt faster than the protected.
On such a small hull, I feel that the handleing of those large rounds, barbette or no, will be quite adventurous. My cruisers have the speed to run, and also the numbers as well. you forget I have 6x the BP you do. I can build enough that your quantity does not have the quality you think it may. Also, I dont have to be alone in any fight we get into. I have friends with powerful ships as well. You want to tango with the Royal Navy, be ready, Im bringing friends as well as the largest battlefleet on Earth.
Your argument is valid if you would actualy have superior numbers. Your problem is going to come in when your limited number of cruisers are forced to face a numaricly superior and qualitativly superior force. Now producing small ships with massive firepower can somewhat offset your disadvantages. That said, the UK likley has more BP for Cruisers than you will have in your entire Navy ( im figuring you at about 70 BP for ships after everything Italia by comparison has 46 in just Cruisers at this moment). Snip dosnt have to build perfect ships as he has the tonage to burn, and even his flawed ships can still bury any of us in shear numbers (outside the other super powers)
Quote from: Logi on September 27, 2012, 01:16:48 PM
Quote from: snip on September 27, 2012, 12:52:52 PM
And all my cruisers say NOMNOMNOM. The all need to be faster IMO.
But your cruisers are all 3 times or more in size compared to mine. Where you have one, I have three.
Not to mention the armament on both is much larger than anything in their tonnage range. The unprotected has armament better that your 3kton cruisers while the protected one has armament the equivalent of a 10kton cruiser.
To say your cruiser wins absolutely would be a falsity - it would be a wash. As I've stated before - what does it matter whether a ship has speed or not if it can't risk getting close? My slower ships still have more powerful A2/AD than a similar faster ship.
Yes I perfectly understand he can drown us in number but I was pointing out the comparison - that my ships are easy picking for his - was not a very valid one considering the tonnage difference.
To that point his suggestion was not very possible either - more speed is prohibitively expensive on tonnage. Perhaps if you were, like Snip, the UK you could waste tonnage on speed - but a limited BP nation cannot afford such luxuries. That is the root of my reply - the feedback wasn't very valid.
Oh and also my cruisers though small have the same roll period as a 11 kton cruisers - just slightly less than a 10 kton battleship. They were designed to be stable. Loading might be cramped and hard but no where as adventurous as you seem to think it is.
my whole point logi is let them grow a bit, your 868 ton one is roughly equivilant to my Partalope class Torpedo Cruiser which I intend to use as DDLs, both in size and firepower (ok so the Partalopes will be 300 tons heavier but they are 1890 boats) the Diferance that 300 tons makes is they hit almost 21 knots in 1890 (I can push it to almost 23 in 1896). that allows them to remain marginaly usefull for a little while anyway, instead of being little more than scraper fodder post startup. Speed costs, but honestly its a necessary expenditure.
300 tons increase is light on a 10 kton, but on a 1 kton that's a 30% increase in weight for marginal utility. I'm of the opinion that for small ships its extremely not worth it.
But regardless here's the modification:
+ 400 tons
+ 2 kts
+ 1 6"/40 gun
+ 250nm cruise range
- Removed armor on guns
QuoteHull-010, Iberia Unprotected Cruiser laid down 1896
Displacement:
1,226 t light; 1,294 t standard; 1,400 t normal; 1,485 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(280.00 ft / 280.00 ft) x 28.00 ft x (12.50 / 13.07 ft)
(85.34 m / 85.34 m) x 8.53 m x (3.81 / 3.98 m)
Armament:
7 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1896 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 725 lbs / 329 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.491 t each, 3.927 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,237 ihp / 4,653 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 2,250nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 190 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
113 - 148
Cost:
£0.173 million / $0.692 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 104 tons, 7.4 %
- Guns: 96 tons, 6.9 %
- Weapons: 8 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 712 tons, 50.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 410 tons, 29.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 174 tons, 12.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
481 lbs / 218 Kg = 4.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.44
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.38 ft / 2.86 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76.6 %
Waterplane Area: 5,224 Square feet or 485 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 59 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 52 lbs/sq ft or 252 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Now thats a nice little cruiser, the only complaint I have about it honestly (and its a nitpick) is there is no weight assigned for the torps (are we still doing that? I have on all my ships). I went with 4.7" guns (since the Class I based them off called for them) but all told IMHO a very nice little cruiser. I cant even complain about it being cramped since I used the same layout =P
As long as you save and reload the design, SS3b3 calculates the torpedo weight OK. It's if you don't reload it from a save file that it calculates it but doesn't apply the weight to the ship. An odd flaw, but there it is.
This little fellow's cute, but REALLY short-legged: it's only got enough coal for about 16.5 hours at full speed. It's, again, an eggshell armed with a lot of hammers: it can do damage, but can't take it. Any hit with a 4" or larger common or base-fused HE shell could penetrate the non-existent armor and bring the ship to a wallowing halt (by no means all such hits would do so, of course, but any hit to the boiler/engine room and it's done). It's also vulnerable to a close pass in the dark or weather by a TB: even if the TB doesn't hit with its torpedos (reasonable likelihood), it's machineguns or light cannon can kill anyone above deck that's exposed and start fires.
if you think it has short legs you should look at my 1200 toner... Course my range was based off the OTL ship so I figured it would be OK for med service and as a DDL.
Quote from: KWorld on September 27, 2012, 02:38:57 PM
As long as you save and reload the design, SS3b3 calculates the torpedo weight OK. It's if you don't reload it from a save file that it calculates it but doesn't apply the weight to the ship. An odd flaw, but there it is.
This little fellow's cute, but REALLY short-legged: it's only got enough coal for about 16.5 hours at full speed. It's, again, an eggshell armed with a lot of hammers: it can do damage, but can't take it. Any hit with a 4" or larger common or base-fused HE shell could penetrate the non-existent armor and bring the ship to a wallowing halt (by no means all such hits would do so, of course, but any hit to the boiler/engine room and it's done). It's also vulnerable to a close pass in the dark or weather by a TB: even if the TB doesn't hit with its torpedos (reasonable likelihood), it's machineguns or light cannon can kill anyone above deck that's exposed and start fires.
It's quite light for a cruiser - I don't expect long legs for such ships. But if we were to armor the ship in any meaningful way (to repel 4" and below) the weight of the ship would more than double - which is not worth it at all.
But in any case - increased range version
+ 400 tons
+ 1750 nm at cruise speed
+ 0.5" Splinter Shield for 6" Battery
+ 0.45" Splinter Shield for Conning Tower.
QuoteHull-010, Iberia Unprotected Cruiser laid down 1896
Displacement:
1,509 t light; 1,585 t standard; 1,800 t normal; 1,972 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(280.00 ft / 280.00 ft) x 28.00 ft x (16.00 / 17.15 ft)
(85.34 m / 85.34 m) x 8.53 m x (4.88 / 5.23 m)
Armament:
7 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1896 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 725 lbs / 329 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.491 t each, 3.927 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0.45" / 11 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,348 ihp / 5,482 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 387 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
137 - 179
Cost:
£0.214 million / $0.856 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 104 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 96 tons, 5.3 %
- Weapons: 8 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 11 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 0.5 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 934 tons, 51.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 460 tons, 25.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 291 tons, 16.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
561 lbs / 255 Kg = 5.2 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.502 / 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 11.50 ft / 3.51 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.47 ft / 2.89 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 183.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.1 %
Waterplane Area: 5,234 Square feet or 486 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 53 lbs/sq ft or 256 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 1.97
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Im with Logi on this one honestly these kind of ships are realy just over grown Destroyers, their role is mostly just to put the hurt on the other sides TB/DD (which can take even less damage), eventualy they will grow into what we all know and recognise as CLs.
Was thinking about growing the 2 kton 9.4" design a bit for better utility (longer range, better protection, etc.)
Had this strange idea while design it - what if I overgrew the protected cruiser concept to allow for battleship weaponry?
So you have a protected "cruiser" here - I'm not sure if this breaks the rules or not.
QuoteHull-012, Iberia Protected "Cruiser" laid down 1895
Displacement:
4,302 t light; 4,507 t standard; 5,000 t normal; 5,395 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (20.00 / 21.18 ft)
(106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 15.24 m x (6.10 / 6.46 m)
Armament:
4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 40.0 cal guns - 529.00lbs / 239.95kg shells, 60 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,737 lbs / 1,242 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.474 t each, 2.845 t total
In 6 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 280.00 ft / 85.34 m 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.58" / 193 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,194 ihp / 5,367 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 888 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
296 - 386
Cost:
£0.559 million / $2.237 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 512 tons, 10.2 %
- Guns: 506 tons, 10.1 %
- Weapons: 6 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 943 tons, 18.9 %
- Belts: 137 tons, 2.7 %
- Armament: 227 tons, 4.5 %
- Armour Deck: 531 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,219 tons, 24.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,627 tons, 32.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 698 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,039 lbs / 1,378 Kg = 4.6 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.509
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.43 ft / 2.87 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 120.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.0 %
Waterplane Area: 11,660 Square feet or 1,083 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 107 lbs/sq ft or 520 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.75
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Not even protected against its own guns at any reasonable engagement range. The reasons noone built ships like this OTL, I dont know them all but I do know Rate of Fire (or in most cases the lack there of) was a Major Factor. Secondly at 18 knots she will get run down my most any AC, which is armored to kill her while the 3" armor would be just enough to arm the fuses on say an 8" shell.
In addition to Tan's comments, I also question the beam. I dont think 50ft is quite enough
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 28, 2012, 04:47:08 PM
Not even protected against its own guns at any reasonable engagement range. The reasons noone built ships like this OTL, I dont know them all but I do know Rate of Fire (or in most cases the lack there of) was a Major Factor. Secondly at 18 knots she will get run down my most any AC, which is armored to kill her while the 3" armor would be just enough to arm the fuses on say an 8" shell.
It's supposed to be an overgrown protected cruiser - since when do they have protection against their own guns?
Also you realize this is a protected cruiser armor scheme - 3" is quite a bit for such a ship - they typically had 1-2" throughout the whole protected cruiser period. The heaviest was 4" flat or 6" selective with 2" everywhere else.
Also what is "armored to kill her"? I assume you meant armed to kill her? Otherwise I'm not sure of your point.
Quote from: snip on September 28, 2012, 04:52:51 PM
In addition to Tan's comments, I also question the beam. I dont think 50ft is quite enough
I had to look at quite a bit of blueprints. From the Maine class I approximated about 35' beam or slightly less for the 12" gun - which makes 50' for 11" twins perfectly reasonable. We can also note that the later Deustcheland class cruiser (of WW2 period) used 70 beam at maximum to house triple 11" guns and from pictures - still had a good amount of space.
Now 40' or less is pushing it.
It's essentially a slightly more modern and much smaller version of the Italia class ships. If I have any available and I have to fight these, I send in the TBs or destroyers: with only 3 medium guns without ammo hoists per side it's shark food.
Logi I have been trying to be diplomatic, as such I havnt mentiond things like all your ships having the efective freeboard of a Torpedo Boat, or the fact that the guns you have on alot of them have literaly NO way of fiting.
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 28, 2012, 08:01:28 PM
Logi I have been trying to be diplomatic, as such I haven't mentioned things like all your ships having the effective freeboard of a Torpedo Boat, or the fact that the guns you have on a lot of them have literally NO way of fitting.
Do I have to go through this again - just like the last time I drew out the entire ship just to show you it does - in fact - fit? I'm am very certain the weaponry can all fit - in fact there are ships of a similar length and size OTL that carried even more than my designs do. I pointed them out just a few pages ago.
I don't want to have to calculate the bow wave height again just to show you that at the low low speeds the ships are going as well as their area of operations at they have enough freeboard to function.
And I have been diplomatic - the only place I think you would be mistaken about my intent is here:
QuoteAlso what is "armored to kill her"? I assume you meant armed to kill her? Otherwise I'm not sure of your point.
I was genuinely confused - I thought the intention of your passage was that the armor was so thin so why state that ships would be able to penetrate it's armor
again? So I was thinking perhaps you didn't miswrite but rather meant armored for the get-go in which case I didn't know what you intended to point out.
On the last design, 9' of freeboard does not give much, if any margion of error in any sort of weather. Also, seeing as she has AC class guns, the 6" will have to be in casemates, not deck mounts.
whatever Logi, I will tell you exactly what I told you when you ran the RRC, build whatever you want but if and when you get into a war with someone dont whine if it gets sunk in Job Lots. If you want to waste your already limited BP on ships that will be worthless for anything other than looking nice in a Harbor that is your business. From this point on all I will point out on your ships is rules violations.
Quote from: snip on September 28, 2012, 09:52:28 PM
On the last design, 9' of freeboard does not give much, if any margion of error in any sort of weather.
From the bow wave calculations it produces a crest of 1.078 meters at 18 kts. So we'll assume the total wave height as the summation of the absolute value of the wave heights so we double the magnitude of the function.
So 2.157 meters tall. But this decreases over time. So the ship has a leeway of 1 m before waves at bow and more than 1 m after bow.
So yes I suppose it needs a slight boost in freeboard to handle further than coastal areas.
Quote from: snip on September 28, 2012, 09:52:28 PMAlso, seeing as she has AC class guns, the 6" will have to be in casemates, not deck mounts.
Ok
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 28, 2012, 09:56:48 PM
whatever Logi, I will tell you exactly what I told you when you ran the RRC, build whatever you want but if and when you get into a war with someone don't whine if it gets sunk in Job Lots. If you want to waste your already limited BP on ships that will be worthless for anything other than looking nice in a Harbor that is your business. From this point on all I will point out on your ships is rules violations.
I'll whine when the ship follows stupid orders but not before then. I have quite confidence in this ship design (although I should have mentioned I have absolutely no intention of building them) seeing as how the no armor - heavy gun scheme worked perfectly against my more armored ships in N3 during the Chinese Civil War.
You really don't need to be so exasperated - I listen to your feedback even if I don't always agree with it.
An attempt at a destroy for the Iberian Navy - this and the unprotected cruiser (the 6" one) should be the general workhorse of the navy.
QuoteHull-014, Iberia Destroyer laid down 1898
Displacement:
450 t light; 463 t standard; 565 t normal; 647 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(230.00 ft / 230.00 ft) x 20.00 ft x (8.50 / 9.43 ft)
(70.10 m / 70.10 m) x 6.10 m x (2.59 / 2.87 m)
Armament:
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1898 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1.70lbs / 0.77kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1898 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 31 lbs / 14 kg
Main Torpedoes
4 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.540 t each, 2.159 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,551 ihp / 4,887 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 183 tons (100% coal)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
57 - 75
Cost:
£0.063 million / $0.253 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 7 tons, 1.3 %
- Guns: 5 tons, 0.8 %
- Weapons: 3 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 328 tons, 58.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 111 tons, 19.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 115 tons, 20.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
127 lbs / 57 Kg = 9.4 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.63
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 8.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.11
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.506 / 0.522
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 8.94 ft / 2.72 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 190.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.4 %
Waterplane Area: 3,081 Square feet or 286 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 27 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 87 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.32
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Trial Speed: 27
Needs Misc weight for torps. I'm also a bit curious as to how four singles fit, as I dont think there would be quite enough room for all of that centerline. Is it two on each beam?
Quote from: snip on October 02, 2012, 10:18:16 PM
I'm also a bit curious as to how four singles fit, as I dont think there would be quite enough room for all of that centerline. Is it two on each beam?
Well I was going by historical vessels the US Bainbridge class. I wasn't sure how the secondary guns are laid out so I used fewer guns (only 2 instead of 5).
Looking now at the blueprints from HNSA - I probably should be able to fit two 1.5" centerline although it would be centerline distributed and not centerline ends. In blueprint they are 2 along each side and 1 centerline in the center for DD-1.
Quote from: snip on October 02, 2012, 10:18:16 PM
Needs Misc weight for torps.
Right, I thought SS3 accounted for torpedo weight but apparently not.
The design fixed:
QuoteHull-014, Iberia Destroyer laid down 1898
Displacement:
450 t light; 463 t standard; 565 t normal; 647 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(230.00 ft / 230.00 ft) x 20.00 ft x (9.00 / 9.95 ft)
(70.10 m / 70.10 m) x 6.10 m x (2.74 / 3.03 m)
Armament:
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1898 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1.70lbs / 0.77kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1898 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 31 lbs / 14 kg
Main Torpedoes
4 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.540 t each, 2.159 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,465 ihp / 4,823 Kw = 24.00 kts
Trial Speed = 27.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 184 tons (100% coal)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
57 - 75
Cost:
£0.063 million / $0.253 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 7 tons, 1.3 %
- Guns: 5 tons, 0.8 %
- Weapons: 3 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 328 tons, 58.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 110 tons, 19.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 115 tons, 20.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0.4 %
- Above deck: 2 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
123 lbs / 56 Kg = 9.1 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.60
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 8.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.11
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.478 / 0.494
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 11.50 ft / 3.51 m, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 8.69 ft / 2.65 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 189.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.1 %
Waterplane Area: 3,004 Square feet or 279 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 27 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 88 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: Logi on October 03, 2012, 12:09:06 AM
Quote from: snip on October 02, 2012, 10:18:16 PM
Needs Misc weight for torps.
Right, I thought SS3 accounted for torpedo weight but apparently not.
SS3 DOES account for torpedo weight, but only if those torpedoes are there when you load the file from a saved file. Where it gets tricky is that if you have torpedoes in the SS file AND you add miscellaneous weight to account for them, if you save the file and reload it (to tweak it or whatever), you'll end up paying twice for those torpedoes. So, if you're going to use miscellaneous weight to account for your design's 4 torpedoes, you should have notes describing the torpedoes and their layout, your miscellaneous weight should be 3 tons (as shown in the Weapons line in the Distribution of weights section), and you should delete the torpedoes from the SS file. What I've been doing for the US designs is making sure I save them, clear the design, and then reload it before generating the design to post.
You still need to add misc wieght. Its written in the rules.
HA I was about to point out that torpedo weights are dictated by the rules, and SS3 plays some realy funky tricks with torpedos trust me... my 17" 12' torpedo has that I can count 4 Diferent weights depending on what ship I put it on (they are all the same year so that shouldnt matter).
Quote from: snip on October 03, 2012, 10:07:40 AM
You still need to add misc wieght. Its written in the rules.
Standardization of weights according to light tonnnage - also added torpedo weights to ships carrying torpedoes.
Unprotected Cruiser - Standardized to 1,500 light tonnage (~-100 tons).
QuoteHull-010, Iberia Unprotected Cruiser laid down 1896
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,576 t standard; 1,789 t normal; 1,960 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(280.00 ft / 280.00 ft) x 28.00 ft x (15.50 / 16.63 ft)
(85.34 m / 85.34 m) x 8.53 m x (4.72 / 5.07 m)
Armament:
7 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1896 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 725 lbs / 329 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.504 t each, 4.028 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.20" / 5 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0.40" / 10 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,339 ihp / 5,475 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 384 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
136 - 178
Cost:
£0.213 million / $0.852 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 104 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 96 tons, 5.4 %
- Weapons: 8 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.2 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 929 tons, 51.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 457 tons, 25.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 289 tons, 16.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 0.2 %
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
558 lbs / 253 Kg = 5.2 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.42
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.515 / 0.526
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.59 ft / 2.92 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 184.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.2 %
Waterplane Area: 5,294 Square feet or 492 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 52 lbs/sq ft or 254 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 1.93
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Protected Cruiser - Standardized tonnage to 2,200 light tonnage (~+400 ton) - increased armor and range of vessel.
QuoteHull-008, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1895
Displacement:
2,200 t light; 2,316 t standard; 2,581 t normal; 2,793 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(260.00 ft / 260.00 ft) x 39.00 ft x (18.00 / 19.10 ft)
(79.25 m / 79.25 m) x 11.89 m x (5.49 / 5.82 m)
Armament:
2 - 9.40" / 239 mm 40.0 cal guns - 380.01lbs / 172.37kg shells, 70 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,381 lbs / 626 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.487 t each, 2.919 t total
In 6 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.00" / 76 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,311 ihp / 3,962 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 477 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
180 - 235
Cost:
£0.285 million / $1.141 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 297 tons, 11.5 %
- Guns: 291 tons, 11.3 %
- Weapons: 6 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 380 tons, 14.7 %
- Belts: 77 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 63 tons, 2.4 %
- Armour Deck: 227 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 829 tons, 32.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 692 tons, 26.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 381 tons, 14.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 0.1 %
- Above deck: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,301 lbs / 590 Kg = 3.1 x 9.4 " / 239 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.495 / 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.12 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.67 ft / 2.95 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 136.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63.5 %
Waterplane Area: 6,724 Square feet or 625 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 84 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 79 lbs/sq ft or 386 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.76
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Battleship - Standardized to 6,500 light tonnage (~-100 tons)
QuoteHull-005, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1895
Displacement:
6,500 t light; 6,873 t standard; 7,377 t normal; 7,780 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 62.00 ft x (22.00 / 22.94 ft)
(106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 18.90 m x (6.71 / 6.99 m)
Armament:
4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 40.0 cal guns - 529.00lbs / 239.95kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 40.0 cal guns - 245.35lbs / 111.29kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 40.0 cal guns - 12.94lbs / 5.87kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,253 lbs / 1,475 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 190.00 ft / 57.91 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 160.00 ft / 48.77 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 190.00 ft / 57.91 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 10.6" / 268 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.90" / 277 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,013 ihp / 4,486 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 907 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
397 - 517
Cost:
£0.671 million / $2.683 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 631 tons, 8.6 %
- Guns: 631 tons, 8.6 %
Armour: 2,605 tons, 35.3 %
- Belts: 1,460 tons, 19.8 %
- Armament: 548 tons, 7.4 %
- Armour Deck: 508 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Tower: 89 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,019 tons, 13.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,245 tons, 30.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 877 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,639 lbs / 3,465 Kg = 11.5 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.541 / 0.547
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.65 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Average freeboard: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 71.1 %
Waterplane Area: 15,017 Square feet or 1,395 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 589 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.81
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Post start-up the unprotected cruiser gets a slight update in that it gets tonnage dropped by 300 tons in excahnge for 12 rounds on the battery.
QuoteHull-016, Iberia Unprotected Cruiser laid down 1900
Displacement:
1,200 t light; 1,265 t standard; 1,440 t normal; 1,580 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(272.50 ft / 272.50 ft) x 26.00 ft x (14.00 / 15.03 ft)
(83.06 m / 83.06 m) x 7.92 m x (4.27 / 4.58 m)
Armament:
7 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 89 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 725 lbs / 329 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.504 t each, 4.028 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,430 ihp / 4,796 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 315 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
116 - 151
Cost:
£0.173 million / $0.692 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 104 tons, 7.2 %
- Guns: 96 tons, 6.7 %
- Weapons: 8 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 719 tons, 49.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 373 tons, 25.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 240 tons, 16.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 0.3 %
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
474 lbs / 215 Kg = 4.4 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.38
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.508 / 0.519
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.51 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.08 ft / 2.77 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 66.6 %
Waterplane Area: 4,756 Square feet or 442 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 63 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 48 lbs/sq ft or 236 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.90
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
IMO,
1200t with 7x152...
The hull is overloaded & stressed
Recoil is too high: 0.86
Jef ;)
It's a slower, smaller GTB-1916: great against merchants and AMCs, in real trouble against cruisers because it can't reject any hits and it can't take them either. 3" or larger shells will cause it real problems, and it's actually fairly vulnerable to TBDs shooting it up because it doesn't have any quick-firing guns to engage with. Doesn't help that there are big lockers on deck full of 6" shells and powder charges.
Quote from: Jefgte on October 12, 2012, 02:04:01 AM
IMO,
1200t with 7x152...
The hull is overloaded & stressed
Recoil is too high: 0.86
Jef ;)
I noticed - I'm seriously questioning the merit of designing a ship for 1900 period until ~1908. The improvements are so incremental that it's pointless to make a new design. For example, I was barely about to squeeze out the 300 ton save in a 4 year time gap by over-stressing the hull.
Quote from: KWorld on October 12, 2012, 03:02:54 AM
It's a slower, smaller GTB-1916: great against merchants and AMCs, in real trouble against cruisers because it can't reject any hits and it can't take them either. 3" or larger shells will cause it real problems, and it's actually fairly vulnerable to TBDs shooting it up because it doesn't have any quick-firing guns to engage with.
You are seriously comparing the speed of a 1900 ship and a 1916 ship? (Not to mention almost all contemporary cruisers are 21-22 kts) Also practically all cruisers have trouble vs other cruisers in this time period. The guns, assuming a shell that doesn't shatter on contact, can all penetrate each other's armor with no problem. So why put armor on a ship that is
1,200 tons. You know that is just over double the size of a destroyer and well under 1/4 or 1/3 the size of your contemporary cruisers in the USN.
Your cruisers also don't even have the armor to shatter the shells on contact - let alone reject the shells.
Another note, 4" guns of 1900 have a fire rate of 7~8 rounds per minute, 6" guns of 1900 had a fire rate of 5-7 rounds per minute. 3" guns have a fire rate of ~15 rounds per minute. The guns don't fire THAT slow that it is so vulnerable to TBs.
It has 7 6" guns to fire a broadside, has torpedoes, and has a decent speed (DDs of the period are hard pressed dot manage more than 27 kts trial speed - unless ofc it's just little more than a PT boat in which case 1 hit sinks them). If you really want to try it, I can do what CT did once before - calculate the approximate number of such ships you would need to torpedo or gun down this cruiser. His numbers revealed a disproportional advantage to the larger ship and concluded that a TB/DD attack would only be feasibly efficient on tonnage in very very rare cases.
Remember speed of a ship negatively affects gun accuracy and larger caliber guns typically have larger engagement radii. In short, how many TBs are you sending after a 1,200 ton ship to guarantee the kill? Assuming DDs of 500, anything over 2 means you've wasted more tonnage sinking the ship than target weighted. Assuming TBs of 200, anything over 6 applies similarly.
QuoteDoesn't help that there are big lockers on deck full of 6" shells and powder charges.
When your ship is practically a destroyer, I don't think it is much of a concern.
The reason to put armor on cruisers is to prevent shell fragments from holing water-tight compartments that were not hit. That's the idea behind a protected cruiser: the sloped "belt" (actually the downward sloping deck edges) protects against direct penetration, and the deck armor protects against fragments that would allow water into the protected compartments beneath the deck (which are intended to keep the ship afloat). In this ship, fragments from a shell exploding above the waterline can cause flooding in multiple compartments by penetrating the hull below the waterline.
You have 5 guns per broadside, the other 2 are on the other side. 5-7 rpm for period best case, a little boat like this isn't the best case. It's a good seaboat for a 1200 ton vessel, but that doesn't mean it doesn't react to the seas more than a larger vessel, seaboat rating is size-relative. Keep in mind the problems the much larger WWII German DDs with 15cm guns had serving them, while your ship is slower it's also less than half their size.
It's about 1/3 the size of my USN cruisers: most of those are ~3400 tons light, I don't have any that are ~4800 tons light (looked at a design, once, but it didn't work out so it was never finished). This ship has 2 more 6" guns, 1 of which will bear on a broadside, the USN ships have 6 extra 4" guns and 8 extra 6-pounders.
IMO,
Instal on a 1200-1400t hull-21kts, 4 x 6" Single mounts on centreline, a couple of QF guns & a 1" Belt-Deck armor.
Jef
France and Italy had a history of building ships like these, however atleast the Italians used a more intermediate gun (4.7" QFs) the Italian ships were unarmored but actualy dont work as built in Spring Sharp (with our rules restrictions atleast). I ended up at 1200 tons to get them to work at a 1.00 composite (however mine also hit 22 knots)
Quote from: KWorld on October 12, 2012, 05:41:59 AMThat's the idea behind a protected cruiser: the sloped "belt" (actually the downward sloping deck edges) protects against direct penetration
The point is unless you have 3" or more of deck at slope (2.12" flat deck according to historical US ships) the armor isn't even going to shatter poor 6" projectiles, let alone protect against direct penetration of non-subpar ammunition.
This means very few cruisers can protect against 6" rounds unless they are much larger ships (I've only seen 10K+ ton cruisers simmed with that kind of armor).
Quote from: KWorld on October 12, 2012, 05:41:59 AM5-7 rpm for period best case, a little boat like this isn't the best case.
Um no? 5-7 rpm was what 6" guns did. Best case was 8 rpm. Also gunnery best case has very little to do with boat size - it has to do with boat stability, heel, and roll. While those are related to ship size (natural benefit through ship size) it doesn't mean a small ship is automatically bad at it.
Case in point, the ship has a roll period of 10.1 seconds - your Pennsylvania class of 11.5K ton has a roll period of 12.3 seconds. A difference of 2 seconds while the larer ship has 10" guns.
Quote from: KWorld on October 12, 2012, 05:41:59 AMIt's a good seaboat for a 1200 ton vessel, but that doesn't mean it doesn't react to the seas more than a larger vessel, seaboat rating is size-relative. Keep in mind the problems the much larger WWII German DDs with 15cm guns had serving them, while your ship is slower it's also less than half their size.
Size is not the main determinate of the seakeeping. You need to keep in mind that the WW2 German DDs were much faster, which produces a substantially larger bow wave height. Not to mention the problems of seakeeping they had was fixed through a better bow design. As for the problem with the gun and wetness - that was primarily due to the lower buoyancy at forecastle due to a poor distribution of guns along the ship. This wasn't helped by the fact that the fore gun was a twin semi-turret.
As for seakeeping - The bow wave height of this ship at 21 kts is only 2.59 ft.
In a sea of 5 ft waves in H[1/3] state- the minimum bow height required for 10% wetness is 7.39 ft.
In a sea of 10 ft waves in H[1/3] state - the minimum bow height required for 10% wetness is 9.38 ft.
Meaning - The ship will survive in 10 ft and below waves. The ship doesn't even have to worry about exposed belt since it doesn't have armor to begin with.
Modified according to Jefgte's suggestions:
Splinter armor added - a few QF guns added.
+100 tons
QuoteHull-016, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1900
Displacement:
1,300 t light; 1,360 t standard; 1,545 t normal; 1,693 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 26.00 ft x (14.00 / 15.00 ft)
(91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 7.92 m x (4.27 / 4.57 m)
Armament:
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.92lbs / 49.41kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 14.29lbs / 6.48kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 493 lbs / 224 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.579 t each, 4.636 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.50" / 13 mm
Forecastle: 0.50" / 13 mm Quarter deck: 0.50" / 13 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 0.40" / 10 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,398 ihp / 4,773 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 334 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
123 - 160
Cost:
£0.176 million / $0.705 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 86 tons, 5.6 %
- Guns: 77 tons, 5.0 %
- Weapons: 9 tons, 0.6 %
Armour: 52 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 48 tons, 3.1 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 764 tons, 49.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 394 tons, 25.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 245 tons, 15.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 0.3 %
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
527 lbs / 239 Kg = 4.9 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 10.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.495 / 0.506
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.54 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 8.74 ft / 2.66 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 174.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.0 %
Waterplane Area: 5,174 Square feet or 481 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 68 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 46 lbs/sq ft or 225 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.36
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
QuoteAs for seakeeping - The bow wave height of this ship at 21 kts is only 2.59 ft.
In a sea of 5 ft waves in H[1/3] state- the minimum bow height required for 10% wetness is 7.39 ft.
In a sea of 10 ft waves in H[1/3] state - the minimum bow height required for 10% wetness is 9.38 ft.
Where did you find this numbers in SS ?
In addition to the aforementioned comments, I feel the ship suffers from NEDS.
Quote from: Jefgte on October 12, 2012, 02:26:28 PM
QuoteAs for seakeeping - The bow wave height of this ship at 21 kts is only 2.59 ft.
In a sea of 5 ft waves in H[1/3] state- the minimum bow height required for 10% wetness is 7.39 ft.
In a sea of 10 ft waves in H[1/3] state - the minimum bow height required for 10% wetness is 9.38 ft.
Where did you find this numbers in SS ?
I didn't get those from SS, though the inputs were from the SS. I used the programs I created and posted in the Knowledge Base->Wave Tools thread which are based on empirical equations derived by other naval architects and are used in Universities like TU Delft. There shouldn't be a problem as SS uses familiar formulas to derive it's equations.
However, if you plan to take a look at the programs, I would wait ~ 1 hr. I need to go and insert a wait on completion so they don't auto-exit on calculation completion.
Quote from: snip on October 12, 2012, 02:44:09 PM
In addition to the aforementioned comments, I feel the ship suffers from NEDS.
How so? To accommodate 1 more 6" gun on the centerline, the ship length has growth 20'. I would thing that's more than enough space.
I was referring to the old design that had 7x6" guns. The new one must have been edited in after I replied.
At this point, I would just strip the armor and make the ship lighter overall. Those thicknesses are going to do very little against any projectile. If it is supposed to be a "supper" DD, build it as light as you can.
Quote from: snip on October 12, 2012, 02:58:23 PMI was referring to the old design that had 7x6" guns. The new one must have been edited in after I replied.
Yes I was reworking the new design for some time so you might have missed it.
Quote from: snip on October 12, 2012, 02:58:23 PMAt this point, I would just strip the armor and make the ship lighter overall. Those thicknesses are going to do very little against any projectile. If it is supposed to be a "supper" DD, build it as light as you can.
The first post 1900 design I did was no armor at 1200 tons - that's about as light as feasibly possible. For the new design the lightest possible would be around 1170 tons. I'ld rather have splinter armor for 80 tons in that case.
As KWorld mentioned, the purpose of the armor is to contain penetrations by stopping splinters - not to reject any sort of shell.
Quote from: Logi on October 12, 2012, 02:52:22 PM
Quote from: Jefgte on October 12, 2012, 02:26:28 PM
QuoteAs for seakeeping - The bow wave height of this ship at 21 kts is only 2.59 ft.
In a sea of 5 ft waves in H[1/3] state- the minimum bow height required for 10% wetness is 7.39 ft.
In a sea of 10 ft waves in H[1/3] state - the minimum bow height required for 10% wetness is 9.38 ft.
Where did you find this numbers in SS ?
I didn't get those from SS, though the inputs were from the SS. I used the programs I created and posted in the Knowledge Base->Wave Tools thread which are based on empirical equations derived by other naval architects and are used in Universities like TU Delft. There shouldn't be a problem as SS uses familiar formulas to derive it's equations.
However, if you plan to take a look at the programs, I would wait ~ 1 hr. I need to go and insert a wait on completion so they don't auto-exit on calculation completion.
On another note, I've fix the Wave Tool programs. The specific order I used for the calculations above is Tasaki Model -> Alternative China Classification Society Model. Feel free to give feedback or ask questions about them.
A design for a newer destroyer for the Iberian Navy in 1900.
QuoteHull-015, Iberia Destroyer laid down 1900
Displacement:
500 t light; 514 t standard; 612 t normal; 690 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(230.00 ft / 230.00 ft) x 20.00 ft x (9.50 / 10.40 ft)
(70.10 m / 70.10 m) x 6.10 m x (2.90 / 3.17 m)
Armament:
3 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 14.29lbs / 6.48kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 43 lbs / 19 kg
Main Torpedoes
4 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.579 t each, 2.318 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.15" / 4 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,595 ihp / 7,158 Kw = 26.00 kts
Trial Speed = 29.00 kts
Range 3,750nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 176 tons (100% coal)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
60 - 79
Cost:
£0.072 million / $0.286 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 10 tons, 1.6 %
- Guns: 7 tons, 1.1 %
- Weapons: 3 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 369 tons, 60.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 119 tons, 19.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 112 tons, 18.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0.4 %
- Above deck: 2 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
115 lbs / 52 Kg = 8.5 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.44
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 9.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.14
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Average freeboard: 9.05 ft / 2.76 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 198.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.1 %
Waterplane Area: 3,038 Square feet or 282 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 20 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 91 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.51
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Im a little leery of the freeboard at 8ft, would it be possible to get another foot out of her? No light guns is an interesting choice.
I'm puzzled by the shape: it's JUST too long to fit into a Type 0, so why the relatviely fat Cb? But it's also got a very high L:b ratio.
Quote from: snip on October 28, 2012, 05:08:28 PM
Im a little leery of the freeboard at 8ft, would it be possible to get another foot out of her? No light guns is an interesting choice.
I'm not sure but I can try.
Quote from: KWorld on October 28, 2012, 06:26:32 PM
I'm puzzled by the shape: it's JUST too long to fit into a Type 0, so why the relatviely fat Cb? But it's also got a very high L:b ratio.
No... it is long enough to fit a Type 0. The Hull-014 and Hull-015 were specifically designed that way. I use the imperial system so the max length allowed in a Type 0 is 230 ft. The metric measurements are pointless in this case. We settled this issue quite some time ago.
QuoteType 0, Dry-dock 70 meters/230 feet, cost $4
Quote from: Logi on October 28, 2012, 04:35:16 PM
Hull-015, Iberia Destroyer laid down 1900
Armament:
3 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 14.29lbs / 6.48kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Singles or twins?
Not sure why it says twins, but it's supposed to be singles. In any case, this version has the mounting fixed and the freeboard raised to 8.5' (a full feet requires the guns lose their splinter shield which I prefer to keep).
QuoteHull-015, Iberia Destroyer laid down 1900
Displacement:
500 t light; 514 t standard; 612 t normal; 690 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(230.00 ft / 230.00 ft) x 20.00 ft x (9.50 / 10.40 ft)
(70.10 m / 70.10 m) x 6.10 m x (2.90 / 3.17 m)
Armament:
3 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 14.29lbs / 6.48kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 43 lbs / 19 kg
Main Torpedoes
4 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.579 t each, 2.318 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,593 ihp / 7,156 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 3,750nm at 10.00 kts
Trial Speed = 29.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 176 tons (100% coal)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
60 - 79
Cost:
£0.072 million / $0.286 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 11 tons, 1.8 %
- Guns: 8 tons, 1.3 %
- Weapons: 3 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 369 tons, 60.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 117 tons, 19.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 112 tons, 18.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0.4 %
- Above deck: 2 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
115 lbs / 52 Kg = 8.5 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 9.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.14
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.50 ft / 2.59 m, 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.50 ft / 2.59 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.03 ft / 2.75 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 198.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.4 %
Waterplane Area: 3,037 Square feet or 282 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 20 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 92 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.50
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Looks good to me. I cant help but wonder if adding a bit of beam would help add a bit more strength to the design.
QuoteRange 3,750nm at 10.00 kts
Colonial work ?
Quote from: Jefgte on October 29, 2012, 06:21:38 PM
QuoteRange 3,750nm at 10.00 kts
Colonial work ?
The DD is meant, as it's predecessor was, to operate as a general destroyer for the fleet. In other words, it should be able to travel the same ranges as it's fleet. Unfortunately I had to reduce the cruise range from 4000 nm at 10 kts to 3750 nm but I think it should still be fine for operating with the fleet at most ranges.
I'll make special shorter range DDs later.
*Mental note*
Dont ride on Iberian DDs, they are gona be wet and miserable in any kind of moderate seas...
Quote from: snip on October 29, 2012, 03:35:05 PM
Looks good to me. I cant help but wonder if adding a bit of beam would help add a bit more strength to the design.
It does not. Beam and draught have negative correlation with regard to cross-sectional strength. As beam goes increase draught must decrease to maintain the same cross-sectional strength. In a similar vein, beam has a negative impact on seakeeping whilst draught has a positive impact (again draught from the beam:draught relationship).
Beam is necessary in general for ship stability and lowering recoil effect on the ship. Neither of these are an issue this design. However, seakeeping is and that is why I have chosen more draught over more beam.
td:dr I have already tried this as well and it yields negative benefits.
Quote from: Tanthalas on October 29, 2012, 10:14:39 PM
*Mental note*
Dont ride on Iberian DDs, they are gona be wet and miserable in any kind of moderate seas...
That has nothing to do with the Iberian navy Tan, Italy is just the new France. Everyone else's DDs (UK, France, etc.) have seakeeping and freeboard similar to mine. Italy is just the odd one out with its lavishly comfortable destroyers.
Edit: I'll have to retract that statement. Everyone but Italy
and Japan.
but mine are fast to (actualy faster than your specimen here but with shorter legs)... no IDK why it worked out that way it just did
Quote from: Tanthalas on October 29, 2012, 11:40:54 PM
but mine are fast to (actualy faster than your specimen here but with shorter legs)... no IDK why it worked out that way it just did
Two reasons:
1) You have a longer overall ship length (yours being 20 ft longer than my design or an 8.7% increase in length). Having such increases the natural speed of the ship and thus reduces the power necessary to attain similar speeds. IE: You can have lighter machinery propel your ship to 1 kt faster than mine. You save 25 tons on machinery.
2) You have half the range of my destroyer (your range double is 3800nm which is only 50 nm away from my design's range). The difference manifests itself in the bunker weight (90 on yours, 176 on mine). This difference of 86 tons.
In total this is a weight savings of 111 tons, which is 22.2% the weight of the ship. This is a pretty significant chunk of weight and structural strength that you can devote to seakeeping and freeboard. This manifests itself in the lavishly comfortable state of your destroyers in comparison to mine.
tl;dr I exchanged comfort for utility in range and possible build locations.
Strength does not necessarily mean composite.
Not gona get into it with you logi, if you cant accept a joke in the good humor it was meant in, well thats your loss. I realised EXACTLY why my DDs ride so much better than everyone elses, however they are built to my needs not anyone elses (seriously think about it whats the farthest my ships are likley to go without coaling... Tranto to Alexandria?)
Quote from: snip on October 29, 2012, 11:49:21 PM
Strength does not necessarily mean composite.
Which post are you responding to?
In my reply to you, I only look at cross-sectional strength because longitudinal strength is at 1.50, way above any minimum requirement. I've tried your suggestion after you asked and I've tried it before too. I typically don't like ships with very high L:B ratios even if it's completely accurate for a destroyer.
In my reply to Tan, 111 tons of weight can be translated to either cross-sectional strength or longitudinal. All you have to do is change the shape of the ship (since you have sufficient composite strength due to the reserve weight). If I changed speed, range, and length of my ship to that of Tan's design ceteris paribus, I instantly have 1.16 seakeeping (1.00 before) and 0.57 cross-sectional strength (0.50 before). With this additional strength, I can raise the average freeboard from 9.03 ft to 10.20 ft giving the ship 1.46 seakeeping.
Quote from: Tanthalas on October 30, 2012, 12:09:08 AM
Not gona get into it with you logi, if you cant accept a joke in the good humor it was meant in, well thats your loss. I realised EXACTLY why my DDs ride so much better than everyone elses, however they are built to my needs not anyone elses (seriously think about it whats the farthest my ships are likley to go without coaling... Tranto to Alexandria?)
Oh, I thought it was meant seriously, my bad. :-[ As the years have passed I've realized I've almost completely lost my ability to discern seriousness from humor in a post.
A possible candidate for the next Iberian battleship. Given the fact that we are drowning in BP (or at least I am), Iberia can probably afford to build these. Since they will take 21 months to build, the actual cost of one is only $3 and 3 BP per half year. A set (4) will cost $12 and 12 BP per half year.
QuoteHull-018, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1900
Displacement:
12,000 t light; 12,559 t standard; 13,577 t normal; 14,391 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(485.00 ft / 485.00 ft) x 68.00 ft x (28.00 / 29.28 ft)
(147.83 m / 147.83 m) x 20.73 m x (8.53 / 8.92 m)
Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 828.07lbs / 375.60kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 14.29lbs / 6.48kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,606 lbs / 2,543 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 125.00 ft / 38.10 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 8.00" / 203 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.50" / 267 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21,780 ihp / 16,248 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,832 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
628 - 817
Cost:
£1.378 million / $5.511 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,034 tons, 7.6 %
- Guns: 1,034 tons, 7.6 %
Armour: 3,826 tons, 28.2 %
- Belts: 2,221 tons, 16.4 %
- Armament: 722 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 753 tons, 5.5 %
- Conning Tower: 129 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,403 tons, 25.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,737 tons, 27.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,577 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,198 lbs / 3,718 Kg = 9.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.515 / 0.522
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.13 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.02 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.50 ft / 4.42 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.90 ft / 3.32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 70.7 %
Waterplane Area: 22,271 Square feet or 2,069 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 630 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Another possible design. Instead of going the way of the Italians and Japanese, Iberia decides to stick with it's previous design tradition.
This one would take 17.5 months to build (3 turns), and costs $2.83 and 2.83 BP per half year.
QuoteHull-019, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1900
Displacement:
8,500 t light; 9,002 t standard; 9,807 t normal; 10,451 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 66.00 ft x (27.00 / 28.40 ft)
(106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 20.12 m x (8.23 / 8.66 m)
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm 35.0 cal guns - 1,286.46lbs / 583.53kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 14.29lbs / 6.48kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,350 lbs / 2,880 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 235.00 ft / 71.63 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 115.00 ft / 35.05 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 235.00 ft / 71.63 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 8.00" / 203 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.29" / 261 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,335 ihp / 8,456 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,450 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
492 - 640
Cost:
£1.025 million / $4.100 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 947 tons, 9.7 %
- Guns: 947 tons, 9.7 %
Armour: 2,856 tons, 29.1 %
- Belts: 1,581 tons, 16.1 %
- Armament: 628 tons, 6.4 %
- Armour Deck: 546 tons, 5.6 %
- Conning Tower: 102 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,771 tons, 18.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,927 tons, 29.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,307 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,122 lbs / 3,231 Kg = 5.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.558
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.43 ft / 3.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63.9 %
Waterplane Area: 16,127 Square feet or 1,498 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 692 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.56
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Whether or not the 14"/35 is an improvement on a 12"/40 is open to question. But otherwise, it's a pretty solid ship, though I would either add another 8" turret per side or replace the 8" turret with 6" casemates, 2 guns per side isn't enough except at very close range.
I prefer the 8500t BB-18kts.
For the moment, 21kts for a BB cost too much in displacement.
Wait turbines to increase speed.
Have a uniform 18kts battle line is tacticaly interresting.
Jef
Honestly I think im the only one with BBs that do 20+ knots... (I blame it on me falling in love with the RE class things Italy built OTL). It led to a whole host of aditional problems like what did I use as a fleet scout (hence the 23 knot ACs that are as big as my BBs), ofcourse it also led to some very interesting solutions long term, like my BBs and BCs (post Dreadnaught) will be aproximatly the same size as my BBs and ACs curently are. So there will be no real change in my building plan.
I think the main belts are to short at 7ft. They are nice and thick, but 7ft does not give much protection. I know it will make them more expensive, but they really need taller belts. Also, you might want to changed the armored decks to single deck as opposed to multiple decks otherwise your main deck is a bit thin (2" is prefect for a single deck for now IMO) aside from the obligatory comments about the shallow freeboard (which raising may help you get some more strength on this tonnage) and there ability to venture out into any sort of weather able to fight, the speed and armament of the design look to be competitive with the latest battleships of several nations.
Taller belts give odd belt heights vs deck heights and also 7 ft is plenty for a ship with a freeboard of 10 ft. I'll fix the deck section.
Is modification of designs still open? I want to replace my predreadnought's with this (same tonnage).
QuoteHull-005, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1895
Displacement:
6,500 t light; 6,782 t standard; 7,282 t normal; 7,682 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 60.00 ft x (23.00 / 23.97 ft)
(106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 18.29 m x (7.01 / 7.31 m)
Armament:
4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 40.0 cal guns - 529.00lbs / 239.95kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 32.27lbs / 14.64kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,503 lbs / 1,135 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 225.00 ft / 68.58 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 125.00 ft / 38.10 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 225.00 ft / 68.58 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.60" / 269 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,278 ihp / 6,921 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 899 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
393 - 512
Cost:
£0.678 million / $2.713 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 473 tons, 6.5 %
- Guns: 473 tons, 6.5 %
Armour: 2,469 tons, 33.9 %
- Belts: 1,556 tons, 21.4 %
- Armament: 341 tons, 4.7 %
- Armour Deck: 486 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 86 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,573 tons, 21.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,985 tons, 27.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 782 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,930 lbs / 2,690 Kg = 8.9 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.528 / 0.534
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.08 ft / 2.77 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 62.6 %
Waterplane Area: 14,354 Square feet or 1,334 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 108 lbs/sq ft or 525 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.71
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
A modification of the 8,500 design to be slightly larger in return for higher firepower and better protection.
QuoteHull-019, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1900
Displacement:
10,500 t light; 11,203 t standard; 12,121 t normal; 12,856 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(370.00 ft / 370.00 ft) x 72.00 ft x (28.00 / 29.36 ft)
(112.78 m / 112.78 m) x 21.95 m x (8.53 / 8.95 m)
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm 35.0 cal guns - 1,286.46lbs / 583.53kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 9.40" / 239 mm 45.0 cal guns - 418.83lbs / 189.98kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,903 lbs / 4,038 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 256.00 ft / 78.03 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 114.00 ft / 34.75 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Upper: 10.0" / 254 mm 256.00 ft / 78.03 m 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 8.00" / 203 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 11.00" / 279 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,793 ihp / 9,543 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,653 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
576 - 750
Cost:
£1.356 million / $5.424 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,506 tons, 12.4 %
- Guns: 1,506 tons, 12.4 %
Armour: 3,462 tons, 28.6 %
- Belts: 1,840 tons, 15.2 %
- Armament: 857 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 640 tons, 5.3 %
- Conning Tower: 125 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,999 tons, 16.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,533 tons, 29.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,621 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,344 lbs / 3,785 Kg = 6.1 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.569 / 0.575
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.08 ft / 3.38 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.8 %
Waterplane Area: 18,922 Square feet or 1,758 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 766 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.48
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
The increase in armament is fine, but there's a problem with the thicker armor: you've actually reduced your armor coverage. If the main belt is centered on the waterline, you have 4' of unarmored sides above your upper belt, and your main belt only goes 4' deep below the waterline.
Whoops!
QuoteHull-019, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1900
Displacement:
11,000 t light; 11,713 t standard; 12,658 t normal; 13,414 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(380.00 ft / 380.00 ft) x 72.00 ft x (28.00 / 29.35 ft)
(115.82 m / 115.82 m) x 21.95 m x (8.53 / 8.95 m)
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm 35.0 cal guns - 1,286.46lbs / 583.53kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 9.40" / 239 mm 45.0 cal guns - 418.83lbs / 189.98kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.89lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,903 lbs / 4,038 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 254.00 ft / 77.42 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 126.00 ft / 38.40 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Upper: 10.0" / 254 mm 254.00 ft / 77.42 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 8.00" / 203 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.30" / 262 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13,026 ihp / 9,717 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,700 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
596 - 775
Cost:
£1.379 million / $5.514 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,506 tons, 11.9 %
- Guns: 1,506 tons, 11.9 %
Armour: 3,855 tons, 30.5 %
- Belts: 2,214 tons, 17.5 %
- Armament: 857 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 663 tons, 5.2 %
- Conning Tower: 121 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,035 tons, 16.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,604 tons, 28.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,658 tons, 13.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,259 lbs / 4,200 Kg = 6.7 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.578 / 0.585
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.28 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.08 ft / 3.38 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.9 %
Waterplane Area: 19,608 Square feet or 1,822 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 753 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.33
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Better. Now, the 4" guns: You've got a ship that's similar in size to USS Indiana, with slightly larger main and secondary guns. Based on her design, you'll probably need to move all of the 4" guns either up, down, or behind casemates to protect the crews.
And look, this design HAS enough range to threaten New York..... and people think I''m paranoid. Ha! :)
That shouldn't be necessary. The design is 380 ft lwl whereas the USS Indiana was 350 ft lwl. Given part of the tertiary is already raised (4 out of 12) there should be enough space to fit the guns.
Yes, it's all a dastardly plot to attack the US ;D
AH HA The truth comes out... Dusts off War Plan Flouresent Clear *looks through it* "huh in case of war between Iberia and the US, Declare Neutrality, for further instructions see apendix C" *digs through till he finds Apendix C* "Sell ammo and Ships to both sides" Ok now I know what to do you may begin your combat at any time.
Quote from: Logi on November 06, 2012, 03:51:01 PM
That shouldn't be necessary. The design is 380 ft lwl whereas the USS Indiana was 350 ft lwl. Given part of the tertiary is already raised (4 out of 12) there should be enough space to fit the guns.
Yes, it's all a dastardly plot to attack the US ;D
QuoteIs modification of designs still open?
No
What the Guy above me said
Quote from: snip on November 06, 2012, 04:39:42 PM
QuoteIs modification of designs still open?
No
QuoteIs modification of designs still open?
No
The game is not started & made minor adjustements are always possible if the displacement (Spreadsheet & 1900H1 report ) didnt change.
Jef
The game has effectively started, so only in cases of rule violations will revision of designs be allowed.
QFE
Quote from: snip on November 06, 2012, 05:20:24 PM
The game has effectively started, so only in cases of rule violations will revision of designs be allowed.
Quote from: Logi on November 06, 2012, 03:51:01 PM
That shouldn't be necessary. The design is 380 ft lwl whereas the USS Indiana was 350 ft lwl. Given part of the tertiary is already raised (4 out of 12) there should be enough space to fit the guns.
30' isn't very much, especially when your main and secondary batteries are both larger than Indiana's (and, in the case of the 9.4" guns, 10 calibers longer).. The 9.4" guns by themselves will use up almost all that extra length. Look at the picture of Indiana here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/USS_Oregon_1893_USNHC_NH_76619_010332.jpg
*applods the good drawing of his home-state's BB*
Quote from: KWorld on November 06, 2012, 05:45:39 PM30' isn't very much, especially when your main and secondary batteries are both larger than Indiana's (and, in the case of the 9.4" guns, 10 calibers longer).. The 9.4" guns by themselves will use up almost all that extra length. Look at the picture of Indiana here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/USS_Oregon_1893_USNHC_NH_76619_010332.jpg
That's quite simply false. While a 9.4" gun may (gun length wise) may take up ~20 ft more space. I have superfiring tertiaries, the Indiana is different. The Indiana (if you look at your picture and the specs on the ship) carried 4 x 6"/40 guns and 20 x 6pdrs.
A 6pdr has the overall length of 2.48m vs the 5.25m of a 4"/50. Given this, we can roughly approximate that a 4"/50 takes double the volume as a 6pdr. Given the overall length of a 6"/40 is around 6.3m (120% of a 4"/50 gun) we can make the very crude estimate that removing the 4x6"/40 and 20x6pdr gives the equivalent space for 14.25 4"/50 guns. Crudely we can say that there is enough space.
If we want to be more precise, we can measure the picture you have given. Assuming the 8"/35 turret is
only the length of the barrel (it is larger) then distance from the barrel tip to the rear end of the 8"/40 turret is 280" or 23.33'. The space between the 8"/40 turrets (the place where the 20x6pdr and 4x6"/40 reside) is about double of that, 560", 46.66'.
Given that the space between the 6pdrs is about the length of the gun in the picture, we can use this measure for the 4"/50. The guns need 200" of space between them. 560" is enough to store 2 of these guns in a very comfortable manner (+80" per gun). This becomes 8 x 4"/50 guns on 350'.
Now the class I design has a length of 380', a 30' gain of which 20' is allocated to the longer 9.4"/45 guns. Now let's assume all of that 10' (or 120") is allocated to that midsection. There is now 680" of space which is enough to store 3 4"/50 guns in the manner previously prescribed (+26.66" per gun). This becomes 12 x 4"/50 guns on 380'.
QED.
Not convincing. They'll physically fit, and PROBABLY be workable as long as the 9.4" guns are trained out on the broadside. But if the 9.4" guns have to be trained mostly fore or aft (like say against a cruiser leading a flotilla of torpedo boats), your deck mounted 4" guns will be either masked by the 9.4s or their crews will in serious blast danger. The 6-pounder gunners on the Indiana have the same problem, slightly lessened because the 8" gun will have less blast effect than the 9.4s. Why make the ship weaker than it could be by putting the guns in a place where they are less capable than they could be?
Downsized the ship, removed 4 x 4"/50 deck mounts and replaced them with casemates. The deck mounts are half superfiring (2 per side deck level, 2 per side raised). The tertiary is full enclosed and protected for blast damage.
Main belt thinned and protection increased, allowing for the upper belt to become shorter and much thinner.
QuoteHull-019, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1900
Displacement:
9,800 t light; 10,487 t standard; 11,370 t normal; 12,076 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(370.00 ft / 370.00 ft) x 69.00 ft x (28.00 / 29.38 ft)
(112.78 m / 112.78 m) x 21.03 m x (8.53 / 8.95 m)
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm 35.0 cal guns - 1,286.46lbs / 583.53kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 9.40" / 239 mm 45.0 cal guns - 418.83lbs / 189.98kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,903 lbs / 4,038 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 266.00 ft / 81.08 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 104.00 ft / 31.70 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 266.00 ft / 81.08 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
2nd: 7.00" / 178 mm 2.50" / 64 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.55" / 192 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,190 ihp / 9,094 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,589 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
549 - 715
Cost:
£1.318 million / $5.273 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,506 tons, 13.2 %
- Guns: 1,506 tons, 13.2 %
Armour: 3,069 tons, 27.0 %
- Belts: 1,700 tons, 14.9 %
- Armament: 681 tons, 6.0 %
- Armour Deck: 607 tons, 5.3 %
- Conning Tower: 82 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,905 tons, 16.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,319 tons, 29.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,570 tons, 13.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,049 lbs / 3,197 Kg = 5.1 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.557 / 0.564
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.36 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.43 ft / 3.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63.6 %
Waterplane Area: 17,929 Square feet or 1,666 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 155 lbs/sq ft or 758 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.46
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Only issue I can see is that you have 4 of your 4" guns in deck mounts on the main deck and 4 in main deck casemates, Not quite sure how that lays out. I'd suggest moving 2 of them up a deck and casemating the other pair, but that's me.
Logi, Did you SS tests ?
3T2x356
3T2x279
3T2x356 becomes something like this:
It is lighter and can support a heavier 4"/50 battery but I am concerned with the over-pressure from the main guns. The shields protects the secondary but it shouldn't protect the superstructure (which will be vulnerable to blast damage).
QuoteHull-019, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1900
Displacement:
9,000 t light; 9,605 t standard; 10,448 t normal; 11,123 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(390.00 ft / 390.00 ft) x 65.00 ft x (26.50 / 27.84 ft)
(118.87 m / 118.87 m) x 19.81 m x (8.08 / 8.49 m)
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm 35.0 cal guns - 1,286.46lbs / 583.53kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,193 lbs / 3,716 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 267.00 ft / 81.38 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 123.00 ft / 37.49 m 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 267.00 ft / 81.38 m 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.4" / 314 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,221 ihp / 8,371 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,518 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
516 - 671
Cost:
£1.146 million / $4.583 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,100 tons, 10.5 %
- Guns: 1,100 tons, 10.5 %
Armour: 2,898 tons, 27.7 %
- Belts: 1,646 tons, 15.8 %
- Armament: 553 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 595 tons, 5.7 %
- Conning Tower: 103 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,753 tons, 16.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,250 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,448 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,075 lbs / 3,209 Kg = 5.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.544 / 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.51 ft / 2.90 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 59.9 %
Waterplane Area: 17,592 Square feet or 1,634 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 709 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.00
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Yep, I need to get the Illustrious class units out of the Med.
Anyway, I think it is to damn small to safely fight proper BBs. As a matter of size, it can take far less hits before there are issues from it. Not saying she cant dish it out, but she most definelty cannot take the punishment that a compatible full sized BB could take. And that is ignoring (seeing as you just brush it off) the fact that she will swamp in any sort of sea. Very very powerful monitor that can inflict quite the punishment, but a subpar battleship in terms of ability to take a hit, serviceability and seaworthiness.
while this ship is technicly legal, my largest concern about it is the ease with which ships with this large (or larger) twins can be rapidly refit with tripple 12" guns to turn what was a reasonable (if slow firing) predread into a real (if rather slow) Dreadnaught. If this ship came up amongst the mods for discussion about legality I would have to come down against it for this reason. (no backdoor Dread refits sorry)
QuoteAnd that is ignoring (seeing as you just brush it off) the fact that she will swamp in any sort of sea.
No, rather seeing that as complete bullocks that is not backed up by any empirical or theoretical model.
The ship has a bow wave height of 4.64 ft. In a H
1/3T
2 sea state the ship will be wet 0.44% of the time in 5 ft waves (typical of the Med). To go to extremes, in 10 ft waves, the ship will be wet 6.66% of the time.
But let us take a section behind the bow where the freeboard is 9 ft. Let us assume that the bow wave height did not decrease and remains the same. This example is our bounded above and is the maximum wetness probability (because bow wave will dramatically decrease) the ship will have in the sections rear of the bow. In a H
1/3T
2 sea state the ship will be wet now 14.96% of the time in 5 ft waves and 38.66% of the time in 10 ft waves.
What does this mean? It means in the maximum (worst) case the ship can operate in the Straits of Gibraltar at reduced capacity. Given that is not the ship's function - the ship has absolutely no problem operating in the Med for any mission.
QuoteAnd that is ignoring (seeing as you just brush it off) the fact that she will swamp in any sort of sea. Very very powerful monitor that can inflict quite the punishment, but a subpar battleship in terms of ability to take a hit, serviceability and seaworthiness.
Supbar in terms of ability to take a hit how? It has 12" armor, extremely similar or even better than even the UK's battleships. It has a armor coverage of 5 ft above waterline out of a total of 9 ft freeboard (vs your 7.5 ft on a 20 ft freeboard).
I think I have addressed the point of seaworthiness to death. I assume serviceability is linked with seaworthiness and thus do not wish to address it again.
Quote from: Tanthalas on November 08, 2012, 12:02:37 AM
while this ship is technically legal, my largest concern about it is the ease with which ships with this large (or larger) twins can be rapidly refit with triple 12" guns to turn what was a reasonable (if slow firing) predread into a real (if rather slow) Dreadnought. If this ship came up amongst the mods for discussion about legality I would have to come down against it for this reason. (no backdoor Dread refits sorry)
A legitimate concern that I had as well when designing the ship. I don't think it is possible given the length of the ship. It is a very tight fit and a 12"/45 gun (modern) would take up 560" barrel length vs the 14"/35's 490". This is a total of 12.5' of additional space needed. This is simply not possible in the A-Q-Y format with on 390 ft of length. (Remember the Brandenburg with 11"/40 had to be squeezed to fit in 380 feet of length). However, it is an valid view and I would understand if it was judged not legal.
Jefgte also asked for a sim of 3T2x279
I deliver. The ship is tiny, only 500 tons more than the predecessor (actually built) Iberian battleships. I do not like it very much due to the many compromises in armor I had to make. In order to fit the gun on only 380 ft of length, I had to raise half of the secondaries as well.
For reference this ship has a lower bow wave height than the previous ship so wetness is even less of a concern.
This ship definitely has too little length for modern longer guns. I believe the lower beam also prevents refitting the ship with triples but I may be proven wrong.
QuoteHull-019, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1900
Displacement:
7,000 t light; 7,371 t standard; 8,095 t normal; 8,674 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(380.00 ft / 380.00 ft) x 57.00 ft x (24.00 / 25.35 ft)
(115.82 m / 115.82 m) x 17.37 m x (7.32 / 7.73 m)
Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm 45.0 cal guns - 671.17lbs / 304.44kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,298 lbs / 1,950 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 255.00 ft / 77.72 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 125.00 ft / 38.10 m 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 255.00 ft / 77.72 m 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
2nd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.72" / 145 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,595 ihp / 7,158 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,303 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
426 - 554
Cost:
£0.846 million / $3.382 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 780 tons, 9.6 %
- Guns: 780 tons, 9.6 %
Armour: 2,505 tons, 30.9 %
- Belts: 1,561 tons, 19.3 %
- Armament: 385 tons, 4.8 %
- Armour Deck: 509 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 50 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 1,499 tons, 18.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,216 tons, 27.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,095 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,812 lbs / 2,636 Kg = 8.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.545 / 0.553
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.32 ft / 2.84 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 60.5 %
Waterplane Area: 15,046 Square feet or 1,398 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 560 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.65
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Iregardless Logi, the problem is if we allow one player to fo it, we have to allow everyone to (and someone *whistles inocently* would be sure his ship had enough room). Further more, im genuinly wondering where the secondaries would fit on it as is (im not going to bother drawing it but I think at 390' she would be damn tight (and I dont care what your calculations say... Look at OTL ships of similar design. Brandenburg AQY 10' shorter (close enough) but with twice the freeboard for call it half her legnth (roughly) IDK I doubt the guns your fitting would fit, Just sayin ya know.
Quote from: Tanthalas on November 08, 2012, 12:42:45 AMFurther more, im genuinly wondering where the secondaries would fit on it as is (im not going to bother drawing it but I think at 390' she would be damn tight
I fully agree. If I was to go ahead on the design I would have to allow the tonange to raise 100-200 tons to allow a longer ship. That may have cascading effects on the stability of the design and I like ending my tonnage in multiples of 500s so I didn't do it.
Quote from: Tanthalas on November 08, 2012, 12:42:45 AM(and I dont care what your calculations say... Look at OTL ships of similar design. Brandenburg AQY 10' shorter (close enough) but with twice the freeboard for call it half her length (roughly) IDK I doubt the guns your fitting would fit, Just sayin ya know.
Freeboard doesn't factor in length. I want to understand your point but I can't understand your lingo.
Well, the nerest comparison I have to these ships in OTL is the USN coastal battleships I will have to use those. They had issues due to there limited freebord. These ships will be no different, despite the calculations you present which cannot account for the weather not cooperating (which unlike prefect-math-land, stuff does not always work out in ideal ways). They may not get swamped, but they will be damn uncomfortable and that will have an effect on preformace.
QuoteSubpar in terms of ability to take a hit how?
Not talking about armor. Talking about protected buoyancy. Almost any hit scored on these ships that penetrates has the potential to let the sea in in comparison to a ship with higher freeboard. Also, given the deep draft, there is lots of volume that is already submerged in comparison to above the normal load waterline. Not qualities that lend themselves well to surviobility, no matter what numbers you cough up.
In my IC opinion, the RN feels these ships should be the poster children for Glass Cannons premade with cracks and is glad that most any sort of weather will keep the Iberian Navy bottled up in port, unable to do anything.
OOC opinion: These designs, despite the math presented, will have issues handleing in all but glass-sheat seas. That will be reflected in any combat these ships engage in. Once again, very powerful monitor, but it is no substitute for a proper battleship and if Iberia feels the need to defend her possession she should investigate larger more capable ships. Selling BP means you can afford to do this from the industrial side and you can sure as hell do it from the cash side. Iberia should be able to afford and build better ships for her defense. Don't count on being able to hide behind France's skirt.
about the 3X2X11/45 one uhm 380' thats brandenburgs length... the guns wont fit (least I dont think they will) Brandenburg had to use one L35 with 2 L40 turrets. If I get motivated I might see what happens when I slap L45s on my Brandenburg drawing tomorow but I can tell you that AQY with them is tight on the RE class hull.
as to my lingo I didnt explain what I was trying to very well did I, I was mostly refering to places to mount guns which your ship is sorley lacking... I shoulda just drug out the dreaded NEDS.
Quote from: snip on November 08, 2012, 12:51:16 AM
Well, the nerest comparison I have to these ships in OTL is the USN coastal battleships I will have to use those. They had issues due to there limited freeboard. These ships will be no different, despite the calculations you present which cannot account for the weather not cooperating (which unlike prefect-math-land, stuff does not always work out in ideal ways). They may not get swamped, but they will be damn uncomfortable and that will have an effect on performance.
Maybe you go into perfect mathland but I used empirical models - ie models based on real data. I will be rude in saying this but I'll say it anyways. If the formulas are good enough for naval architects and universities everywhere, including DEFLT in Netherlands and the US government, I will trust them over your inhibitions.
Let me pull the example of a US coastal battleship, the Indiana class. The class had a freeboard of 11.5' (according to Congressional hearings). For the areas of operation for the US, the wave heights are 15' in large swaths of territory . Going by the previously mentioned sea state, the ship would be wet 18.11% of the time in 15 ft waves. Much more likely is the large swath of area near New England that is subject to 20-25' waves regularly. In 25' waves the ship is 35.87% likely to be wet.
Now what does that sound like? The 15 ft wave condition of wetness for the Indiana corresponds the 9,000 ton design I posted if we cut off the bow and run it in the water without regard for the fact that bow wave decreases dramatically after the bow. The 25 ft wave condition of water corresponds to the same bow cut situation with the design in the Straits of Gibraltar. Now if we ignore that complete fantasy and take the data of the design with a bow, the design is MUCH less wet than the Indiana.
For reference, the (later) Maine class has ~18.75 ft of freeboard at bow (from the same Congressional hearing) and has 0.21% of wetness at 15 ft waves and 2.45% wetness at 25 ft waves. The Maine class did indeed have much better seakeeping than the Indiana class.
(Btw these numbers are very similar to my design with a bow)Quote from: snip on November 08, 2012, 12:51:16 AM
Not talking about armor. Talking about protected buoyancy. Almost any hit scored on these ships that penetrates has the potential to let the sea in in comparison to a ship with higher freeboard. Also, given the deep draft, there is lots of volume that is already submerged in comparison to above the normal load waterline. Not qualities that lend themselves well to survivability, no matter what numbers you cough up.
That's a factor of the ship tonnage. There's nothing wrong with the design itself. To point this out as a flaw is the same as complaining that a cruiser can take less water than a battleship before sinking - moot.
Also note that the argument goes both ways. While a penetrating hit is more likely to let in water, a lower freeboard also means that penetrating hit is less likely to happen. I'll also quote Admiral Capps from the Congressional hearing on this:
"Generally speaking, freeboard in excess of seagoing requirements is most undesirable in a battleship. High freeboard involves a high center of gravity and considerably less stability under damaged conditions; it also means greater target area; moreover, the extra weight devoted to high freeboard decrease the percentage of displacement which can be devoted to other seriously important elements of the design.He continues after asserting the English and Japanese also only design for the minimum freeboard necessary.
"In the very long and fine lined ship, however, with concentration of weight nearer the extremities, it is desirable, for seagoing reasons, as already stated, to raise the forecastle; but the Japanese are apparently so impressed with the desirability of limiting the elevation of their top weights and devoting as much weight as possible to armor and armament, that they appear to be willing to make some sacrifice in freeboard. They have therefore maintained approximately the same freeboard in their new and longer battleships as seemed sufficient for their older and shorter vessels; and surely the Japanese have the advantage of great experience so far as concerns the essential requirements of battleships under modern battle conditions."Quote from: snip on November 08, 2012, 12:51:16 AM
In my IC opinion, the RN feels these ships should be the poster children for Glass Cannons premade with cracks and is glad that most any sort of weather will keep the Iberian Navy bottled up in port, unable to do anything.
OOC opinion: These designs, despite the math presented, will have issues handling in all but glass-sheet seas. That will be reflected in any combat these ships engage in. Once again, very powerful monitor, but it is no substitute for a proper battleship and if Iberia feels the need to defend her possession she should investigate larger more capable ships. Selling BP means you can afford to do this from the industrial side and you can sure as hell do it from the cash side. Iberia should be able to afford and build better ships for her defense. Don't count on being able to hide behind France's skirt.
I have no problem if you believe hiding in your own beliefs and refusing any fact presented to you is a way to solve you changing your mind about anything. I've presented facts, and even made a counterpoint by demonstrating the validness of my empirical models in front of you.
The problem here is that you have already formulated an idea of what a good ship's specifications are and simply refuse to accept any alteration of the idea, even after being bombarded with empirical and historical facts. You have already decided what the minimum tonnage for a capable ship is, what the freeboard is, etc. irregardless of the different missions and operating areas of ships and irregardless of any incorrectness in your original idea. I don't know what you would call it, but I call it a lost cause. One of those fanatic who would rather delude themselves than change their minds.
Freeboard is not universal, but a condition of the ship's mission. If you have assets far from coast that you have to venture into the Atlantic to protect, you will encounter higher waves and need more freeboard. If you're operating in a relatively bottled up area with low waves, you don't need high freeboard. I'm not even going to talk about how the ratios of a ship's l/b/d affect the freeboard needed to manage waves.
Quote from: Tanthalas on November 08, 2012, 12:52:33 AMabout the 3X2X11/45 one uhm 380' that's Brandenburg's length... the guns wont fit (least I don't think they will) Brandenburg had to use one L35 with 2 L40 turrets. If I get motivated I might see what happens when I slap L45s on my Brandenburg drawing tomorrow but I can tell you that AQY with them is tight on the RE class hull.
as to my lingo I didn't explain what I was trying to very well did I, I was mostly referring to places to mount guns which your ship is sorely lacking... I shoulda just drug out the dreaded NEDS.
As I said, I had to lift half of the secondary (8x4"/50, same as Brandenburg) up a deck. I assume the superstructure needed for the secondaries is halved as well. I am not sure either but I thought freeing up the deck space of 2x4"/50 guns (we can say 400" total or 33.33' total from my estimate in the Indiana class) would be enough space saved to just barely fit the longer guns.
This calculation, as opposed to my seakeeping calculations are very shaky since I haven't studied and looked at it in detail. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong and it's NEDS. I'll wait for your drawing tomorrow.
STOP.This is pointless.
Logi, no matter what you think you prove by writing these (I suppose) hydrodynamic formulas is completely moot if we don't understand the theory behind it.
If you want to show us something do it literally. You could e.g.:
- make a scale drawing of you ship
- apply a normal wave pattern to it, which sources why you choose a certain wave height
- apply the self generating waves of the ship, again sources
- superimpose those patterns onto the ship drawings, bot best and worst case
Let us see what happens.
Quotea freeboard of 11.5' (according to Congressional hearings). For the areas of operation for the US, the wave heights are 15' in large swaths of territory . Going by the previously mentioned sea state, the ship would be wet 18.11% of the time in 15 ft waves.
WTH? If the waves are higher than the freeboard than the ships basically awash, is it not? "18% wet" sounds strange in this situation.
The others I think we need to discuss something in private.
Quotemake a scale drawing of your ship
I broke my tablet and using a mouse to draw takes me quite a bit longer than just hammering out the math. This also has to do with the fact that I suck at drawing ships and generally don't want to see how ugly I make a ship look.
Quoteapply a normal wave pattern to it, which sources why you choose a certain wave height
P3D's link to ocean weather. (http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,2861.0.html)
NOAA/NCEP links to P3D's link and also to here. (http://www.lajollasurf.org/gblpac.html)
When I pick a wave height, I'm picking from what the wave heights actually are in that area.
Quoteapply the self generating waves of the ship, again sources
I have them all named in my Logi's Unofficial tools thread. I use the Tasaki Empirical Model and the China Classification Society Model for 18% wetness in H
1/3T
1 sea state.
TU DELFT: Evaluation of Minimum Bow Height and Freeboard Based on Probabilistic Deck-Wetness Considerations (http://www.shipmotions.nl/DUT/PapersReports/1232-OC-00.pdf)
TU DELFT: Joint Development of a Bow height Formula by China and the Netherlands Based on Probabilistic Deck Wetness Analysis (http://www.shipmotions.nl/DUT/PapersReports/1270-IMO-SLF-01.pdf)
Naval Hydrodynamics by the US Office of Naval Research (no links, sorry!)
Journal of Society of Naval Architects of Japan, Vol. 141 Pg 10, Titled: On Deck Wetness and Impulsive Water-Pressures Acting On The Deck In Head Seas (is quite far away at the Southern Illinois University Carbondale)
This report by the Seaking Committee in ITTC is a good overview of the terminology and methods used. (http://ittc.sname.org/proc15/Report%20of%20Seakeeping%20Committee.pdf)
Most of the TU DELFT articles are taken from the J.M.J.Journée. The formulas are also mentioned in Naval Symposiums but they don't go in much detail or methods so they aren't useful to link to.
Just for good measure, multiple links to the Congressional Hearing I was quoting before. Btw, these are all free ebooks.
Hearings before the Committee on naval affairs of the House of Representatives (https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=5PcuAAAAMAAJ&rdid=book-5PcuAAAAMAAJ&rdot=1)
Congressional Serial Set (https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=yOFTAAAAIAAJ&rdid=book-yOFTAAAAIAAJ&rdot=1)
United States Congressional Serial Set (https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=DLRRei6p788C&rdid=book-DLRRei6p788C&rdot=1)
Quotesuperimpose those patterns onto the ship drawings, bot best and worst case
I assume then you all have no idea what a H
1/3T
1 sea-state means. When I say something like 5 ft in H
1/3T
1 sea state that means the height of the highest 30% of waves over a single wave period. The H state is something like a normal distribution. H
1/100T
1 would then describe the highest 1% of waves over a single wave period (worst case period).
If you want pictures, I have to do more math and plot the function simply because while bow wave height decreases after the fact it doesn't do so in a nice formula although the general trend is quite nice. This is why I bound the function from above when doing the math so it absolutely encapsulates the wave.
QuoteWTH? If the waves are higher than the freeboard than the ships basically awash, is it not? "18% wet" sounds strange in this situation.
The reason is simple. Ships are not static, they rise with waves. The wave has to overcome the ability of the ship to ride the wave to come over the top.
This research paper attempting to model this behavior should make it easy to understand (Because it has very nice pictures). Titled: A combined strip theory and Smoothed Particle Hydrodynamics approach for estimating slamming loads on a ship in head seas (http://cmst.curtin.edu.au/local/docs/pubs/veen_gourlay_2012_a_combined_strip_the%20ory.pdf)
I am going to pull the numbers that matter.
From the 6x14"
QuoteStability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
These numbers tell me this. The ship is built rather tight, and will not take a hit an be able to mantian is characteristics well.
From the 6x11"
QuoteStability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Slightly better then the above, but the same point still stands.
You can throw all the numbers you want out, but in the end, only the ones that come out of SS reports matter.
There will be no contesting this. If the numbers say one thing, and you claim another based on calculations outside of SpringSharp, the SpringSharp numbers will be the numbers that are used.
Quote from: snip on November 08, 2012, 11:23:32 PM
I am going to pull the numbers that matter.
From the 6x14"
QuoteStability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
These numbers tell me this. The ship is built rather tight, and will not take a hit an be able to mantian is characteristics well.
This is completely random, given all the values are the typical values expected on a ship. The only one high is the recoil but is still good.
Quote from: snip on November 08, 2012, 11:23:32 PM
From the 6x11"
QuoteStability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Slightly better then the above, but the same point still stands.
You can throw all the numbers you want out, but in the end, only the ones that come out of SS reports matter. There will be no contesting this. If the numbers say one thing, and you claim another based on calculations outside of SpringSharp, the SpringSharp numbers will be the numbers that are used.
The same point is invalid. What exactly is your opinion of good criteria then? The years I've designed here and with the others have indicated that 1.08 stability and above is desired and recoil below 0.8 is desired. Anything fitting that is ok.
Im done with this. Will only comment on rules violations from now on.