First, a small patrol boat as a contender for a possible civil ship rule:
PB1, Teuton Patrol Boat laid down 1898
Displacement:
103 t light; 106 t standard; 110 t normal; 113 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(82,02 ft / 82,02 ft) x 16,40 ft x (5,41 / 5,54 ft)
(25,00 m / 25,00 m) x 5,00 m x (1,65 / 1,69 m)
Armament:
1 - 1,97" / 50,0 mm 45,0 cal gun - 3,85lbs / 1,74kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading gun in deck and hoist mount, 1898 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline forward
5 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 25,0 cal guns - 1,40lbs / 0,64kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1898 Model
1 x Quintuple mount on centreline aft
3 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm 80,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1.500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1898 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
2 raised mounts
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 11 lbs / 5 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,79" / 20 mm - 1,57" / 40 mm
2nd: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0,59" / 15 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 210 ihp / 156 Kw = 11,48 kts
Range 600nm at 8,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
16 - 22
Cost:
£0,009 million / $0,036 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 2,1%
- Guns: 2 tons, 2,1%
Armour: 3 tons, 2,9%
- Armament: 3 tons, 2,6%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,3%
Machinery: 34 tons, 30,7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 63 tons, 57,6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7 tons, 6,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
158 lbs / 72 Kg = 41,4 x 2,0 " / 50 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,23
Metacentric height 0,5 ft / 0,1 m
Roll period: 9,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,23
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2,00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,529 / 0,532
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 9,06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25,00%, 12,60 ft / 3,84 m, 10,30 ft / 3,14 m
- Forward deck: 35,00%, 10,30 ft / 3,14 m, 10,30 ft / 3,14 m
- Aft deck: 20,00%, 5,15 ft / 1,57 m, 5,15 ft / 1,57 m
- Quarter deck: 20,00%, 5,15 ft / 1,57 m, 5,15 ft / 1,57 m
- Average freeboard: 8,47 ft / 2,58 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 89,3%
Waterplane Area: 890 Square feet or 83 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 141%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 157 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,10
- Longitudinal: 23,96
- Overall: 1,50
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
37 mm "Quintuple" is a Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon
And a older and smaller battleship design to counter these 6x12" behemoths. ^^
, Teutonic Battleship laid down 1895
Displacement:
10.237 t light; 10.855 t standard; 12.000 t normal; 12.916 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(433,07 ft / 423,23 ft) x 72,18 ft x (22,97 / 24,40 ft)
(132,00 m / 129,00 m) x 22,00 m x (7,00 / 7,44 m)
Armament:
4 - 11,14" / 283 mm 45,0 cal guns - 661,39lbs / 300,00kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
10 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
30 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 18,0 cal guns - 1,32lbs / 0,60kg shells, 150 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1895 Model
6 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3.677 lbs / 1.668 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,0" / 280 mm 275,10 ft / 83,85 m 10,66 ft / 3,25 m
Ends: 3,94" / 100 mm 148,10 ft / 45,14 m 10,66 ft / 3,25 m
Upper: 5,91" / 150 mm 275,10 ft / 83,85 m 7,87 ft / 2,40 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 7,87" / 200 mm 11,8" / 300 mm
2nd: 5,91" / 150 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 7,09" / 180 mm
3rd: 0,59" / 15 mm - 1,97" / 50 mm
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1,97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12,01" / 305 mm, Aft 7,87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 12.240 ihp / 9.131 Kw = 18,00 kts
Range 4.500nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2.061 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
573 - 745
Cost:
£0,961 million / $3,842 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 784 tons, 6,5%
- Guns: 784 tons, 6,5%
Armour: 4.020 tons, 33,5%
- Belts: 2.230 tons, 18,6%
- Armament: 838 tons, 7,0%
- Armour Deck: 728 tons, 6,1%
- Conning Towers: 225 tons, 1,9%
Machinery: 2.075 tons, 17,3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.358 tons, 28,0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.763 tons, 14,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14.751 lbs / 6.691 Kg = 21,3 x 11,1 " / 283 mm shells or 2,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,37
Metacentric height 5,3 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 13,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,54
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,599 / 0,606
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,57 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,83 ft / 4,22 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100,2%
Waterplane Area: 22.314 Square feet or 2.073 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 599 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,95
- Longitudinal: 1,61
- Overall: 1,00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
37 mm "Quintuple" are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons
OK... 5% looks a bit heavy on how much armaments and armor that you can put on one of these vessels.
That would mean that a 1000 ton ship could mount 50 tons worth of weapons and armor.
This could easily lead to a 'quasi-warship' being built on that tonnage.
We're going to need to see what the upper limit will be, but I'm thinking 2.5% or lower might be necessary.
The battleship I like immensely!
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 03, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
OK... 5% looks a bit heavy on how much armaments and armor that you can put on one of these vessels.
That would mean that a 1000 ton ship could mount 50 tons worth of weapons and armor.
This could easily lead to a 'quasi-warship' being built on that tonnage.
We're going to need to see what the upper limit will be, but I'm thinking 2.5% or lower might be necessary.
That's why my suggestion was 2 to 3% OR a minimum of ~5 tons - similar to minesweepers, remember?
Quote
The battleship I like immensely!
Thanks, but I think I made too many cuts to reduce its displacement.
Quote from: Nobody on May 03, 2012, 11:43:42 AM
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 03, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
OK... 5% looks a bit heavy on how much armaments and armor that you can put on one of these vessels.
That would mean that a 1000 ton ship could mount 50 tons worth of weapons and armor.
This could easily lead to a 'quasi-warship' being built on that tonnage.
We're going to need to see what the upper limit will be, but I'm thinking 2.5% or lower might be necessary.
That's why my suggestion was 2 to 3% OR a minimum of ~5 tons - similar to minesweepers, remember?
Quote
The battleship I like immensely!
Thanks, but I think I made too many cuts to reduce its displacement.
I agreed with the 2-3% figure then and now... I was just wondering why you chose to go with 5% for this design?
And the battleship is actually spot-on for the period. It won't compare exactly to some of the ships people will be fielding here (though mine are similar in size), but it is very period-appropriate.
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 03, 2012, 11:59:52 AM
I agreed with the 2-3% figure then and now... I was just wondering why you chose to go with 5% for this design?
Well you haven't posted anything yet so I made some assumptions. In this case it's just a rework (to 1.5 composite and removed hull armor to achieve that) of the 100 ton craft posted before. Anyway, it's just 5 tons and less armament would be insufficient for a patrol craft in this world. (a light anti-ship gun to stop bigger ships, a short-range 'auto-cannon' against the biosphere and a few machine guns for day to day patrol, all with light shields)
That aside its hardly more than a 'study'. Once there are rules I will either adapt them or build them as smaller military vessels - like the one posted before.
Quote
And the battleship is actually spot-on for the period. It won't compare exactly to some of the ships people will be fielding here (though mine are similar in size), but it is very period-appropriate.
Except that the ship I thought I modeled mine after has more secondary and tertiary guns which are also bigger.
I like the battleship too.
Not exessive in all, just well balanced.
(My Liberté class with over 13000t is too big)
IMO, the PB is too small, with too short range for patrols.
Jef
Looks rather equivalent to Canopus, though better armored (a common SS artifact).
The problem with the BB is that it lacks heavy secondaries: the 4 12" guns won't fire rapidly (period guns are 1 round a minute while ready ammunition holds out), which limits your ability to get hits. The same period's 9.2" guns fire at 2 rounds per minute.
And yet, it was discovered that such an arrangement made both the heavy AND intermediate calibers less effective, becaues the heavy guns interfere with the intermediate guns, and vice versa. The most successful of the British battleships were the ones that had the large 6" batteries rather than the ones with the smaller batteries of 9.2" guns.
There's an argument to be made there, but it's not one that was, at the time, accepted as proven fact. To know that, all you have to do is look at the armament of the last generation of pre-dreads: most of them had a heavy secondary battery. Look at HMS King Edward VII and HMS Lord Nelson, the USS Connecticutt, the FN Liberte and Danton, etc.
Quote from: KWorld on May 04, 2012, 05:37:44 AM
There's an argument to be made there, but it's not one that was, at the time, accepted as proven fact. To know that, all you have to do is look at the armament of the last generation of pre-dreads: most of them had a heavy secondary battery. Look at HMS King Edward VII and HMS Lord Nelson, the USS Connecticutt, the FN Liberte and Danton, etc.
And, yet, those same vessels had spotting troubles
WELL KNOWN AT THE TIME- so
caveat emptor.
That wasn't seen as an issue until late in the pre-dreadnought period, as optics and ranges got longer. I suppose it's a question of how much hindsight you want to employ: the more you employ, the less the ships of this period will look like many of the historical ships, because in hindsight, we know better.
Quote from: KWorld on May 04, 2012, 08:00:10 AM
That wasn't seen as an issue until late in the pre-dreadnought period, as optics and ranges got longer. I suppose it's a question of how much hindsight you want to employ: the more you employ, the less the ships of this period will look like many of the historical ships, because in hindsight, we know better.
Not being able to tell the difference between the 9.2" and 12" splashes isn't 'hindsight'; it is an immediately noticed problem. As Tsushima had already been fought, the knowledge of longer range engagements is already there.
In fact it was a well-known enough problem that the
Lord Nelson battleships were
delayed due to their turrets being packed off to
Dreadnought's drydock; they knew the
Dreadnought was a superior ship for long range engagements.
We could suppose,
With a different rof between main & secondary guns,
The timing of the salves & splashes were different.
You could also change the number of guns. for ex, 4 x12" & 6x9"2.
You have then, a number of splashes different.
More easy to identify.
Jef
Quote from: KWorld on May 03, 2012, 07:47:51 PM
The problem with the BB is that it lacks heavy secondaries: the 4 12" guns won't fire rapidly (period guns are 1 round a minute while ready ammunition holds out), which limits your ability to get hits. The same period's 9.2" guns fire at 2 rounds per minute.
Which is why I'm not using 12" but 28 cm guns, that achieve 2 rounds per minute (http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_11-40_skc04.htm) (not that that would actually matter, because in real combat 1 per minute was quite good). You might notice notice that that is only a L40 gun and that it fires much lighter shells. So I modified my 1895 BB and gave her a better light battery:
BBL, Teutonic Battleship laid down 1895
Displacement:
10.266 t light; 10.855 t standard; 12.000 t normal; 12.916 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(433,07 ft / 423,23 ft) x 72,18 ft x (22,97 / 24,40 ft)
(132,00 m / 129,00 m) x 22,00 m x (7,00 / 7,44 m)
Armament:
4 - 11,14" / 283 mm 40,0 cal guns - 529,11lbs / 240,00kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 30,0 cal guns - 19,17lbs / 8,69kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
30 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,39lbs / 0,63kg shells, 250 per gun
Machine guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1895 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Quintuple mounts on sides, forward deck centre
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3.700 lbs / 1.678 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,0" / 280 mm 275,10 ft / 83,85 m 10,66 ft / 3,25 m
Ends: 4,33" / 110 mm 148,10 ft / 45,14 m 10,66 ft / 3,25 m
Upper: 5,91" / 150 mm 275,10 ft / 83,85 m 7,87 ft / 2,40 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 7,87" / 200 mm 11,8" / 300 mm
2nd: 5,91" / 150 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 7,09" / 180 mm
3rd: 0,59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0,47" / 12 mm - 2,36" / 60 mm
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1,97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12,01" / 305 mm, Aft 7,87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 12.240 ihp / 9.131 Kw = 18,00 kts
Range 4.500nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2.061 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
573 - 745
Cost:
£0,946 million / $3,784 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 768 tons, 6,4%
- Guns: 768 tons, 6,4%
Armour: 4.136 tons, 34,5%
- Belts: 2.253 tons, 18,8%
- Armament: 916 tons, 7,6%
- Armour Deck: 743 tons, 6,2%
- Conning Towers: 225 tons, 1,9%
Machinery: 2.075 tons, 17,3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.287 tons, 27,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.734 tons, 14,5%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15.319 lbs / 6.948 Kg = 22,2 x 11,1 " / 283 mm shells or 2,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,43
Metacentric height 5,7 ft / 1,7 m
Roll period: 12,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,25
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,55
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,599 / 0,606
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,57 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,83 ft / 4,22 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80,4%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100,2%
Waterplane Area: 22.314 Square feet or 2.073 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 588 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,95
- Longitudinal: 1,59
- Overall: 1,00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Warning: Wrong mount for machine gun - 4th battery
37 mm "Quintuple" are Hotchkiss Revolving CannonsFor comparison:
| Class | Year | Size | Main | 2nd | 3rd | 4th |
| Brandenburg | 1891 | 10013 | 6x28cm | 6x10.5cm | 8x8.8cm | 12x(?)x3.7cm |
| Kaiser-Friedrich-III. | 1896 | 11100 | 4x24cm | 18x15cm | 12x8,8cm | 12x(?)x3.7cm |
| Wittelsbach | 190? | 11744 | 4x24cm | 18x15cm | 12x8,8cm | 12x(?)x3.7cm |
| Braunschweig | 1902 | 13208 | 4x28cm | 14x17cm | 18x8.8cm |
| Deutschland | 1904 | 13190 | 4x28cm | 14x17cm | 20x8.8cm |
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 04, 2012, 08:17:44 AM
Quote from: KWorld on May 04, 2012, 08:00:10 AM
That wasn't seen as an issue until late in the pre-dreadnought period, as optics and ranges got longer. I suppose it's a question of how much hindsight you want to employ: the more you employ, the less the ships of this period will look like many of the historical ships, because in hindsight, we know better.
Not being able to tell the difference between the 9.2" and 12" splashes isn't 'hindsight'; it is an immediately noticed problem. As Tsushima had already been fought, the knowledge of longer range engagements is already there. In fact it was a well-known enough problem that the Lord Nelson battleships were delayed due to their turrets being packed off to Dreadnought's drydock; they knew the Dreadnought was a superior ship for long range engagements.
Thing is, though, if we're going to use the argument that "all that already happened, everyone knows the lessons learned from that", then why would we be building ships that look like WWI ACs, BBs, etc, rather than dreadnoughts and dreadnought cruisers? The mixed battery battleship was a product of it's environment, where ranges were expected to be short and guns were operating in local control. If ranges aren't expected to be short (because of better rangefinders, etc), then designs shouldn't look historical.
Quote from: KWorld on May 04, 2012, 10:09:56 AM
Thing is, though, if we're going to use the argument that "all that already happened, everyone knows the lessons learned from that", then why would we be building ships that look like WWI ACs, BBs, etc, rather than dreadnoughts and dreadnought cruisers? The mixed battery battleship was a product of it's environment, where ranges were expected to be short and guns were operating in local control. If ranges aren't expected to be short (because of better rangefinders, etc), then designs shouldn't look historical.
Because we cannot replicate these rangefinders yet?
In case most insist on building 6x12" ships, I will consider something like this. Your twelve inchers will have quite a hard time denting it.
BBL, Teutonic Battleship laid down 1905
Displacement:
17.078 t light; 18.009 t standard; 20.000 t normal; 21.593 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(551,18 ft / 551,18 ft) x 91,86 ft x (25,26 / 26,84 ft)
(168,00 m / 168,00 m) x 28,00 m x (7,70 / 8,18 m)
Armament:
6 - 11,14" / 283 mm 40,0 cal guns - 529,11lbs / 240,00kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
14 - 7,09" / 180 mm 40,0 cal guns - 141,10lbs / 64,00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 4,13" / 105 mm 40,0 cal guns - 35,27lbs / 16,00kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
40 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,39lbs / 0,63kg shells, 250 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5.488 lbs / 2.489 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 358,27 ft / 109,20 m 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
Ends: 5,91" / 150 mm 192,88 ft / 58,79 m 11,81 ft / 3,60 m
Upper: 8,66" / 220 mm 358,27 ft / 109,20 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1,97" / 50 mm 358,27 ft / 109,20 m 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 65,62 ft / 20,00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,8" / 350 mm 9,84" / 250 mm 13,0" / 330 mm
2nd: 9,45" / 240 mm 4,33" / 110 mm 5,91" / 150 mm
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm - 3,15" / 80 mm
4th: 0,47" / 12 mm - 2,36" / 60 mm
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3,15" / 80 mm
Forecastle: 1,97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 1,97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13,78" / 350 mm, Aft 7,87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 15.582 ihp / 11.624 Kw = 18,00 kts
Range 5.900nm at 13,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.583 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
840 - 1.093
Cost:
£1,367 million / $5,469 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.176 tons, 5,9%
- Guns: 1.176 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 8.984 tons, 44,9%
- Belts: 3.961 tons, 19,8%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 685 tons, 3,4%
- Armament: 2.068 tons, 10,3%
- Armour Deck: 1.926 tons, 9,6%
- Conning Towers: 344 tons, 1,7%
Machinery: 2.236 tons, 11,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.682 tons, 23,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.922 tons, 14,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32.855 lbs / 14.903 Kg = 47,5 x 11,1 " / 283 mm shells or 6,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,36
Metacentric height 7,5 ft / 2,3 m
Roll period: 14,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,17
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,547 / 0,556
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Average freeboard: 13,79 ft / 4,20 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107,3%
Waterplane Area: 35.246 Square feet or 3.274 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 644 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,99
- Longitudinal: 1,03
- Overall: 1,00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
37 mm "Quintuple" are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons
KWorld... Do you have experience, small arms or otherwise, in spotting rounds or fall of shell? I do not have to use hindsight to know it is hard to tell the difference between the impact of a heavy machine gun and a medium caliber rifle at 500 yds or more. Same principle here... the fact that the similar sized splashes would be confusing only requires anyone with reasonable experience in gunlaying doing a comparison on the spot.
Revised (better I think) version of my 'heavy battleship' design:
BBL, Teutonic Battleship laid down 1905
Displacement:
17.058 t light; 17.989 t standard; 20.000 t normal; 21.609 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(508,53 ft / 508,53 ft) x 82,02 ft x (27,89 / 29,73 ft)
(155,00 m / 155,00 m) x 25,00 m x (8,50 / 9,06 m)
Armament:
6 - 11,14" / 283 mm 40,0 cal guns - 529,11lbs / 240,00kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
14 - 7,09" / 180 mm 40,0 cal guns - 141,10lbs / 64,00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 4,13" / 105 mm 40,0 cal guns - 35,27lbs / 16,00kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
40 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,39lbs / 0,63kg shells, 250 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5.488 lbs / 2.489 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,8" / 350 mm 330,54 ft / 100,75 m 11,81 ft / 3,60 m
Ends: 7,87" / 200 mm 177,95 ft / 54,24 m 11,81 ft / 3,60 m
Upper: 12,0" / 305 mm 330,54 ft / 100,75 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1,97" / 50 mm 330,54 ft / 100,75 m 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59,06 ft / 18,00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,2" / 360 mm 9,84" / 250 mm 13,8" / 350 mm
2nd: 9,84" / 250 mm 5,91" / 150 mm 8,66" / 220 mm
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm - 3,15" / 80 mm
4th: 0,47" / 12 mm - 2,36" / 60 mm
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3,54" / 90 mm
Forecastle: 1,97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 1,97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13,78" / 350 mm, Aft 9,84" / 250 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 16.500 ihp / 12.309 Kw = 18,19 kts
Range 6.000nm at 13,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.620 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
840 - 1.093
Cost:
£1,385 million / $5,540 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.176 tons, 5,9%
- Guns: 1.176 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 9.516 tons, 47,6%
- Belts: 4.406 tons, 22,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 711 tons, 3,6%
- Armament: 2.172 tons, 10,9%
- Armour Deck: 1.852 tons, 9,3%
- Conning Towers: 375 tons, 1,9%
Machinery: 2.368 tons, 11,8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.958 tons, 19,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.942 tons, 14,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 0,2%
- Hull below water: 10 tons
- Hull above water: 10 tons
- On freeboard deck: 10 tons
- Above deck: 10 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28.390 lbs / 12.877 Kg = 41,1 x 11,1 " / 283 mm shells or 5,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,23
Metacentric height 5,4 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 14,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,25
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,602 / 0,610
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,20 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Average freeboard: 13,61 ft / 4,15 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92,0%
Waterplane Area: 30.557 Square feet or 2.839 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 619 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,19
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
37 mm "Quintuple" are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons
40 tons of weight reserve
I realized that my armor belts were way too high, so here is my 3rd incarnation of the 'heavy battleship' concept. I extended the main belt to the whole side and used the idea from the rules to use the upper belt to simulate a sloped armor deck.
BBL3, Teutonic Battleship laid down 1905
Displacement:
17.074 t light; 17.992 t standard; 20.000 t normal; 21.607 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(508,53 ft / 508,53 ft) x 82,02 ft x (28,22 / 30,07 ft)
(155,00 m / 155,00 m) x 25,00 m x (8,60 / 9,16 m)
Armament:
6 - 11,14" / 283 mm 40,0 cal guns - 529,11lbs / 240,00kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
14 - 7,09" / 180 mm 40,0 cal guns - 165,35lbs / 75,00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 4,13" / 105 mm 40,0 cal guns - 35,27lbs / 16,00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
40 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,39lbs / 0,63kg shells, 250 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5.827 lbs / 2.643 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,8" / 350 mm 330,54 ft / 100,75 m 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
Ends: 8,66" / 220 mm 177,95 ft / 54,24 m 11,81 ft / 3,60 m
Upper: 1,97" / 50 mm 330,54 ft / 100,75 m 5,00 ft / 1,53 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1,97" / 50 mm 330,54 ft / 100,75 m 29,53 ft / 9,00 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59,06 ft / 18,00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,2" / 360 mm 9,84" / 250 mm 13,8" / 350 mm
2nd: 11,0" / 280 mm 7,09" / 180 mm 9,84" / 250 mm
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm - 3,15" / 80 mm
4th: 0,47" / 12 mm - 2,36" / 60 mm
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3,54" / 90 mm
Forecastle: 1,97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 1,97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13,78" / 350 mm, Aft 11,02" / 280 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 16.500 ihp / 12.309 Kw = 18,21 kts
Range 6.000nm at 13,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.615 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
840 - 1.093
Cost:
£1,385 million / $5,542 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.176 tons, 5,9%
- Guns: 1.176 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 9.421 tons, 47,1%
- Belts: 4.228 tons, 21,1%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 711 tons, 3,6%
- Armament: 2.249 tons, 11,2%
- Armour Deck: 1.840 tons, 9,2%
- Conning Towers: 394 tons, 2,0%
Machinery: 2.368 tons, 11,8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.009 tons, 20,0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.926 tons, 14,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,5%
- Hull below water: 20 tons
- Hull above water: 20 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28.664 lbs / 13.002 Kg = 41,4 x 11,1 " / 283 mm shells or 5,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,26
Metacentric height 5,6 ft / 1,7 m
Roll period: 14,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,25
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,595 / 0,603
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,20 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Average freeboard: 13,61 ft / 4,15 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91,4%
Waterplane Area: 30.358 Square feet or 2.820 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 627 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,21
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Upper belt is increased thickness of armor deck sloops
37 mm "Quintuple" are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons
100 t reserve
I made a possible armor cross-section, since SpringSharp assumes armor decks as bolted on top of an existing deck, which is probably between .5" and 15mm thick, I noted it down as "+10 mm". The 'block' on top of the deck is a casemate for the 18cm guns.
47% of armour, That's "kolossal"
IMO, reduce armor & increase speed to the classic 21kts.
Jef
or making the ship lighter would be an option.
Quote from: Nobody on May 05, 2012, 05:10:43 AM
Upper belt is increased thickness of armor deck sloops
37 mm "Quintuple" are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons
100 t reserve[/tt]
I made a possible armor cross-section, since SpringSharp assumes armor decks as bolted on top of an existing deck, which is probably between .5" and 15mm thick, I noted it down as "+10 mm". The 'block' on top of the deck is a casemate for the 18cm guns.
Not sure that is a good idea.
The positions of the belts do some funny things with a ships's steadiness and stability.
We should just stick with using each belt location as it was intended EXCEPT for protected cruisers, which have no other way of simming things, save trying to create some kind of horribly overcomplicated algorithm for how deck/slope armor is distributed and how thick an armored deck should be to approximate this.
So, for anytihng but a protected cruiser, we are just going to assume that the armor is uniform in thickness.
Jef, snip:
The whole point of this 'heavy battleship' is to be enormously armored. And the 20 kn range was only 'classic' for turbine driven ships. At least all non-turbine ships I looked at had a top speed of 18 kn.
As you wish Carth, but I don't really see any difference.
BBL3, Teutonic Battleship laid down 1905
Displacement:
17.074 t light; 17.992 t standard; 20.000 t normal; 21.607 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(508,53 ft / 508,53 ft) x 82,02 ft x (28,22 / 30,07 ft)
(155,00 m / 155,00 m) x 25,00 m x (8,60 / 9,16 m)
Armament:
6 - 11,14" / 283 mm 40,0 cal guns - 529,11lbs / 240,00kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
14 - 7,09" / 180 mm 40,0 cal guns - 165,35lbs / 75,00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 4,13" / 105 mm 40,0 cal guns - 35,27lbs / 16,00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
40 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,39lbs / 0,63kg shells, 250 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5.827 lbs / 2.643 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,8" / 350 mm 330,54 ft / 100,75 m 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
Ends: 8,66" / 220 mm 177,95 ft / 54,24 m 11,81 ft / 3,60 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1,97" / 50 mm 330,54 ft / 100,75 m 32,81 ft / 10,00 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59,06 ft / 18,00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,2" / 360 mm 9,45" / 240 mm 13,8" / 350 mm
2nd: 11,0" / 280 mm 7,09" / 180 mm 9,84" / 250 mm
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm - 3,15" / 80 mm
4th: 0,47" / 12 mm - 2,36" / 60 mm
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3,94" / 100 mm
Forecastle: 1,97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 1,97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13,78" / 350 mm, Aft 11,02" / 280 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 16.500 ihp / 12.309 Kw = 18,21 kts
Range 6.000nm at 13,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.615 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
840 - 1.093
Cost:
£1,385 million / $5,542 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.176 tons, 5,9%
- Guns: 1.176 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 9.504 tons, 47,5%
- Belts: 4.085 tons, 20,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 790 tons, 3,9%
- Armament: 2.214 tons, 11,1%
- Armour Deck: 2.021 tons, 10,1%
- Conning Towers: 394 tons, 2,0%
Machinery: 2.368 tons, 11,8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.926 tons, 19,6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.926 tons, 14,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,5%
- Hull below water: 20 tons
- Hull above water: 20 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28.793 lbs / 13.060 Kg = 41,6 x 11,1 " / 283 mm shells or 5,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,27
Metacentric height 5,7 ft / 1,7 m
Roll period: 14,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,25
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,595 / 0,603
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,20 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Average freeboard: 13,61 ft / 4,15 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91,4%
Waterplane Area: 30.358 Square feet or 2.820 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 626 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,21
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
37 mm "Quintuple" are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons
100 t reserve
Deck Armor distribution (+10 indicates normal deck structures):
60 mm upper deck (50+10)
40 mm lower flat portion (50-20+10)
90 mm sloops (50 + 2*20)
And here is also my first try on a armored/large/heavy cruiser. Pretty much the opposite, focused on firepower and speed instead of protection. I also might have fully exploited the being a pre-dreadnought here:
, Teutonic Panzerkreuzer laid down 1908
Displacement:
11.443 t light; 12.067 t standard; 15.000 t normal; 17.346 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(552,83 ft / 551,18 ft) x 68,90 ft x (26,25 / 29,41 ft)
(168,50 m / 168,00 m) x 21,00 m x (8,00 / 8,97 m)
Armament:
8 - 8,66" / 220 mm 45,0 cal guns - 308,65lbs / 140,00kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1908 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 8,66" / 220 mm 45,0 cal guns - 308,65lbs / 140,00kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1908 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
12 - 4,13" / 105 mm 45,0 cal guns - 33,07lbs / 15,00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1908 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
30 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,39lbs / 0,63kg shells, 250 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1908 Model
6 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4.142 lbs / 1.879 kg
Main Torpedoes
4 - 21,7" / 550 mm, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m torpedoes - 1,722 t each, 6,890 t total
submerged bow & stern tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3,94" / 100 mm 358,27 ft / 109,20 m 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
Ends: 2,36" / 60 mm 192,88 ft / 58,79 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Upper: 3,15" / 80 mm 137,80 ft / 42,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1,18" / 30 mm 358,27 ft / 109,20 m 23,69 ft / 7,22 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 66,27 ft / 20,20 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8,27" / 210 mm 5,12" / 130 mm 7,87" / 200 mm
2nd: 7,87" / 200 mm 3,94" / 100 mm -
3rd: 5,12" / 130 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 4,72" / 120 mm
4th: 0,59" / 15 mm - 1,97" / 50 mm
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1,18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7,87" / 200 mm, Aft 4,33" / 110 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 37.800 ihp / 28.199 Kw = 24,14 kts
Range 8.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.279 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
677 - 881
Cost:
£1,207 million / $4,827 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.019 tons, 6,8%
- Guns: 1.005 tons, 6,7%
- Weapons: 14 tons, 0,1%
Armour: 3.463 tons, 23,1%
- Belts: 1.234 tons, 8,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 371 tons, 2,5%
- Armament: 1.162 tons, 7,7%
- Armour Deck: 536 tons, 3,6%
- Conning Towers: 160 tons, 1,1%
Machinery: 3.402 tons, 22,7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.529 tons, 23,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.557 tons, 23,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 0,2%
- Hull below water: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15.780 lbs / 7.157 Kg = 48,6 x 8,7 " / 220 mm shells or 1,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,32
Metacentric height 4,7 ft / 1,4 m
Roll period: 13,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,36
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,527 / 0,544
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 4,10 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Forward deck: 25,00%, 20,34 ft / 6,20 m, 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Aft deck: 40,00%, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 16,27 ft / 4,96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113,1%
Waterplane Area: 25.932 Square feet or 2.409 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 558 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,29
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
30 t misc - Torpedo Tubes: 7 t
3 Torpedos per Tube: 21 t
reserve: 2 t
Is the Torpedo-handling correct here?
IMO, futur BBs speed 'll be 21 kts.
A 1905 BB could be 21 kts to serve in the futur battleline.
The armored cruiser is powerfull, fast but with relatively light belt.
----
That's also logical to start the Navy in 1895 & then, increase year after year in size & performances.
Nova Francia ACs program
AC1 & AC2-1897,1900,1901 - 7900t
AC3-1903 - 10 000t
AC4-1906 - 12 500t
AC5-1909 - 15 000t
On the AC, good speed, excellent range & firepower (yes, you're taking full advantage of the rules, but the same rules apply to everyone so I'm good with it). Protection against other ACs firing APC, though, is pretty poor. If you can smother them in 22cm fire, you'll do OK, but any large-caliber hits will likely penetrate your armor.
Nice little tinclad- she's fast enough and heavily armed enough to last into the "battlecruiser era" a bit.
Now, she's going to wear out her engines like there isn't any tomorrow... but that's neither here no there in our world.
I'm not getting the armored deck protection. So, you have more than one deck... that's OK.
There aren't any 'slopes and flats' though. *They won't be effective, largely because the combat system won't model them.*
Protected cruisers are the exception only because there is no other way to do it.
Another 'Juggernaut' concept... It's so crazy I like it 8)
I kind of felt this is required to counter a 4x12" + many 10" 'double' battery.
, Teutonic Large Battleship laid down 1908
Displacement:
16.852 t light; 17.908 t standard; 20.000 t normal; 21.674 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(528,22 ft / 524,93 ft) x 82,02 ft x (27,89 / 29,78 ft)
(161,00 m / 160,00 m) x 25,00 m x (8,50 / 9,08 m)
Armament:
4 - 11,02" / 280 mm 45,0 cal guns - 661,39lbs / 300,00kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1908 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
10 - 11,02" / 280 mm 45,0 cal guns - 661,39lbs / 300,00kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1908 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
18 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1908 Model
18 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
18 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
20 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1908 Model
20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
20 raised mounts
40 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,32lbs / 0,60kg shells, 150 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck mounts, 1908 Model
8 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11.495 lbs / 5.214 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 341,21 ft / 104,00 m 10,86 ft / 3,31 m
Ends: 5,91" / 150 mm 183,69 ft / 55,99 m 10,86 ft / 3,31 m
Upper: 8,66" / 220 mm 341,21 ft / 104,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,8" / 350 mm 7,87" / 200 mm 13,0" / 330 mm
2nd: 11,8" / 300 mm 5,91" / 150 mm -
3rd: 7,87" / 200 mm - -
4th: 1,18" / 30 mm - 2,95" / 75 mm
5th: 0,59" / 15 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3,15" / 80 mm
Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1,38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12,99" / 330 mm, Aft 7,87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 33.000 ihp / 24.618 Kw = 21,94 kts
Range 5.500nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.766 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
840 - 1.093
Cost:
£1,705 million / $6,819 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.828 tons, 9,1%
- Guns: 1.828 tons, 9,1%
Armour: 6.954 tons, 34,8%
- Belts: 3.409 tons, 17,0%
- Armament: 1.604 tons, 8,0%
- Armour Deck: 1.610 tons, 8,0%
- Conning Towers: 331 tons, 1,7%
Machinery: 2.970 tons, 14,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.899 tons, 24,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.149 tons, 15,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1,0%
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 60 tons
- On freeboard deck: 40 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22.956 lbs / 10.413 Kg = 34,3 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,43
Metacentric height 6,9 ft / 2,1 m
Roll period: 13,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,583 / 0,592
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,39 ft / 0,12 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,39 ft / 4,08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92,2%
Waterplane Area: 30.993 Square feet or 2.879 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 678 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,35
- Overall: 1,00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
37 mm "Quintuple" are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons
200 t misc (=1% of the ship) for splinter protection
It's crazy- and I kind of like it.
Granted, you'd only get to fire those casemate 11" guns about every other minute or so- but hey, it would have a heck of a broadside when it could fire.
In terms of the game- they would fire once every 3rd round.
Something the size of a 12" casemate would probably fire every 4th round.
Really? Why would a casemate gun fire significantly slower than one in a turret? If it only fires at half the speed of a turreted gun (or worse), a Q turret would be a much better choice.
Quote from: Nobody on May 20, 2012, 02:37:33 AM
Really? Why would a casemate gun fire significantly slower than one in a turret? If it only fires at half the speed of a turreted gun (or worse), a Q turret would be a much better choice.
Uhm... different shell handling equipment?
A rotating gunhouse on a barbette would have a much more automated shell-handling system than a casemated mount. Look at pictures of the two different types of mounts historically to see what I mean. Then imagine trying to load a 300kg shell with the kinds of equipment you see in the casemate mounts.
If everyone decides to go A-Q-Y then the option will be eliminated; no I know why Rocky made it a different tech level in N3.
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 20, 2012, 11:22:15 AM
Quote from: Nobody on May 20, 2012, 02:37:33 AM
Really? Why would a casemate gun fire significantly slower than one in a turret? If it only fires at half the speed of a turreted gun (or worse), a Q turret would be a much better choice.
Uhm... different shell handling equipment?
A rotating gunhouse on a barbette would have a much more automated shell-handling system than a casemated mount. Look at pictures of the two different types of mounts historically to see what I mean. Then imagine trying to load a 300kg shell with the kinds of equipment you see in the casemate mounts.
I could not find any data to support or oppose that view. Navweaps does not mention different rof for different type of mounts and the only picture of a casemate mount I could find looks exactly the same as a turret cross-section. But since that is a 15 cm gun there is no special shell handling equipment anyway.
Quote from: Nobody on May 20, 2012, 01:01:11 PM
I could not find any data to support or oppose that view. Navweaps does not mention different rof for different type of mounts and the only picture of a casemate mount I could find looks exactly the same as a turret cross-section. But since that is a 15 cm gun there is no special shell handling equipment anyway.
I can, and it was easy.
6"/L47 turret diagram
http://www.usslittlerock.org/Armament/Little_Rock_6_inch_Gun.html
Casemates don't have powered loading equipment, they are loaded by hand.
Carth, I don't see how that would support either view. It doesn't even mention casemates. Besides, as I said 6" guns are loaded by hand anyway.
What I was looking for was some kind of comparison between the same big gun (>8") when mounted in both turrets and casemate.
Hmmm... as for a 'modern' casemate, this is a picture of one of the 5"/L51 guns of the U.S.S. Nevada:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h93000/h93414.jpg
There is a shell hoist, but there is no kind of power assistance; all the work is done by human hands. Because of this basic feature of a casemate mount, Springsharp isn't figuring in power assist loading for the heavier calibers. This means that the heavier shells must be transferred to the heavy guns with block and tackle and be hand rammed... meaning that the ROF is significantly lowered.
SMS Scharnhorst would be our best bet for comparisons in the 'modern' gun world; I'm looking for info on her, though I'm also seeing her 8.2" casemates referred to as 'wing turrets' in some sources- which, if they are, would disqualify them from comparison.
Additionally, we could compare the ROF in the older 9.2" British AC's with the more modern turreted versions.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_92-31_mk3.htm
On monitors without the setup of the 'mount & hoist' on the cruisers, the ROF was halved... at least. The higher practice figures (generally what's given on NavWeps) make it more like 1/8 the ROF. I see no reason that guns this heavy (11") without any 'helpful equipment' except a shell hoist would be able to fire as fast as their turreted counterparts with purpose-built equipmetn to speed loading.
The turreted versions compare favorably with the 'mount & hoist' cruiser mounts, but exceed their ROF when powered ramming is adopted.
Again I think not a suitable comparison. Neither 5 or 6 inch guns need power assist. In fact they might be a hindrance. On the other hand, I don't believe you can reload a 300 kg shell without. Therefore it has to be there. If it's there, then why should the gun in a casemate fire slower than in a turret?
The 21 cm guns would certainly be interesting - if we could find pictures or sketches of how they were installed in both turret and casemate.
Quote from: Nobody on May 20, 2012, 04:31:48 PM
Again I think not a suitable comparison. Neither 5 or 6 inch guns need power assist. In fact they might be a hindrance. On the other hand, I don't believe you can reload a 300 kg shell without. Therefore it has to be there. If it's there, then why should the gun in a casemate fire slower than in a turret?
The 21 cm guns would certainly be interesting - if we could find pictures or sketches of how they were installed in both turret and casemate.
Again- it is not there
because Springsharp isn't programed to assume it. The massive weight savings that are reflected by casemate mounts is partially because they do not consider this. Basically, the program doesn't make the same assumptions that you do. Also, if you are to include this powered equipment in a casemate mount, then you will have to either accept
1.) a fixed loading angle, as a result of the loading equipment not rotating with the entire assembly
OR2.) what would basically amount to a Coles/Ericsson mount; a giant turntable where all the equipment is mounted on it.
The 21cm guns aboard the
Scharnhorst offer our best comparison... if anyone can find information on this, then we will have at least an indication of our solution. HOWEVER we must also take into consideration a difference of 100+kg in some cases, and the effect that would have on shell handling.
Also, the 6"/47 caliber turrets were not hand-loaded.
The page detailing the turrets operation specifically states that the (powered) loading equipment didn't work at elevations of >22*. In fact, this page goes so far as to list the actual makers of the equipment makers for each piece of the turret's machinery!
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/Admin-Hist/075-Ordnance/075-Ord10R.html (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/Admin-Hist/075-Ordnance/075-Ord10R.html)
QuoteThe 6"/47 triple turret gun program involved the procurement of 148 assemblies at a total approximate cost of $38,800,000.[3]
The Naval Gun Factory, with the exception of the powder and projectile hoists, was the sole source of supply for these turrets, because of its heavy production schedules, the job shop nature of its work, and the fact that the manufacture of turrets was not easily adapted to mass production, many anxious moments arose during the early stages of the shipbuilding program. The Gun Factory, nevertheless, was able to ship the ordnance equipment to the shipbuilders within the time required for installation with the result that throughout the entire war period lack of turret equipment in no case caused delay in a ship's completion date.
The Jeffrey Manufacturing Company supplied all the powder and projectile hoists, and its performance was outstanding. Various other components were produced by commercial manufacturers. The Gilbert and Baker Manufacturing Company produced the sights, the elevating and training gun attachments as well as the fuze setters. Rammers were manufactured by the Carrier Corporation, which did an excellent Job on this particular work. General Mills machined counter-recoil cylinders and plungers.[4]
The Bethlehem Steel Company and the Midvale Company produced the 6"/47 forgings which were shipped to the Gun Factory and South Charleston for machining. Advanced deliveries permitted suspension of barrel.
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 20, 2012, 05:20:17 PM
Again- it is not there because Springsharp isn't programed to assume it. The massive weight savings that are reflected by casemate mounts is partially because they do not consider this. Basically, the program doesn't make the same assumptions that you do.
Springsharp makes no difference between casemate and deck mount. Only if you add a hoist or barbette the weight of the mount multiplies. I always thought anyway that the main difference was the weight saving in armor.
Quote
Also, if you are to include this powered equipment in a casemate mount, then you will have to either accept
1.) a fixed loading angle, as a result of the loading equipment not rotating with the entire assembly
OR
2.) what would basically amount to a Coles/Ericsson mount; a giant turntable where all the equipment is mounted on it.
The 21cm guns aboard the Scharnhorst offer our best comparison... if anyone can find information on this, then we will have at least an indication of our solution. HOWEVER we must also take into consideration a difference of 100+kg in some cases, and the effect that would have on shell handling.
Now that's the kind of argument I was looking for! So if you're saying that a casemate mount is less efficent, that's fine. But if it only fires every 2nd or 3rd 'round' then they are useless and the tonnage better spent on more AY-ships. If they take say 50% longer between shots and therefore are included in 2 out of 3 salvos than that's perfectly fine and understandable for me.
Quote from: Nobody on May 21, 2012, 01:55:27 AM
Springsharp makes no difference between casemate and deck mount. Only if you add a hoist or barbette the weight of the mount multiplies. I always thought anyway that the main difference was the weight saving in armor.
Looking at a diagram of a casemate mount and a deck mount, the only real difference is one is below the main deck, and one is above. Both are basically just pedestal mounts with an armored shield.
Quote from: Nobody on May 21, 2012, 01:55:27 AM
Now that's the kind of argument I was looking for! So if you're saying that a casemate mount is less efficent, that's fine. But if it only fires every 2nd or 3rd 'round' then they are useless and the tonnage better spent on more AY-ships. If they take say 50% longer between shots and therefore are included in 2 out of 3 salvos than that's perfectly fine and understandable for me.
I thought I was explaining this with all the comments on powered loading equipment not being present in a casemate mount and presenting evidence to back my choice up?
Another example of a gun with and without power assist are the German 28cm L/40 and the 28cm L/45: the L/40 was hand operated and rammed, the L/45 was power-rammed. The L/40 fired at up to 2 rounds per minute, the L/45 at up to 3 rpm (both per navweaps).
SMS Scharnhorst's beam 21cm guns clearly are in a casemate mounting of some sort, not a turret, but it's certainly possible that there's a limited-traverse and elevation turret mechanism inside that casemate.
Something truely riddicious this time:
(i wonder if I can manage that with 18 or 22 cm guns as well...)
CCC, Teutonic Crazy Cruiser Concept laid down 1900
Displacement:
10.056 t light; 10.602 t standard; 13.432 t normal; 15.695 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524,93 ft / 524,93 ft) x 65,62 ft x (26,25 / 29,64 ft)
(160,00 m / 160,00 m) x 20,00 m x (8,00 / 9,03 m)
Armament:
4 - 8,66" / 220 mm 40,0 cal guns - 308,65lbs / 140,00kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
24 - 5,91" / 150 mm 40,0 cal guns - 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
24 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
20 - 4,13" / 105 mm 40,0 cal guns - 33,07lbs / 15,00kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
10 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
10 double raised mounts
20 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,32lbs / 0,60kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4.502 lbs / 2.042 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,72" / 120 mm 334,65 ft / 102,00 m 9,19 ft / 2,80 m
Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 187,01 ft / 57,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
3,28 ft / 1,00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 3,94" / 100 mm 288,71 ft / 88,00 m 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Main Belt covers 98% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,87" / 200 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 7,09" / 180 mm
2nd: 5,91" / 150 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 3,94" / 100 mm
3rd: 3,94" / 100 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 1,97" / 50 mm
4th: 1,18" / 30 mm - -
5th: 0,47" / 12 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1,18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5,91" / 150 mm, Aft 3,94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 21.062 ihp / 15.713 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 7.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.093 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
623 - 810
Cost:
£1,056 million / $4,224 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 772 tons, 5,7%
- Guns: 772 tons, 5,7%
Armour: 2.710 tons, 20,2%
- Belts: 1.072 tons, 8,0%
- Armament: 1.049 tons, 7,8%
- Armour Deck: 469 tons, 3,5%
- Conning Towers: 120 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 3.291 tons, 24,5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.284 tons, 24,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.376 tons, 25,1%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13.840 lbs / 6.277 Kg = 42,6 x 8,7 " / 220 mm shells or 1,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,48
Metacentric height 5,2 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 12,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,35
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,520 / 0,538
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Forward deck: 25,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 30,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 20,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,45 ft / 4,10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93,8%
Waterplane Area: 23.375 Square feet or 2.172 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 107 lbs/sq ft or 522 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,23
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Carth, what does showing a couple of 'small' guns in casemate mounts with no power assist prove if I know that such guns were hand-loaded anyway even in WW2, independent of the mount they were installed in - be that turret, deck mount or casemate?
KWorld, thank you. I think that is useful information.
Heh, that's an escort cruiser: intended to kill TBs, DDs, and CLs dead, with capability as well against other ACs. :)
On casemate mountings, one other thing that I note as interesting: the 21cm casemate mountings on SMS Scharnhorst are about the biggest smokeless powder casemate guns I can recall, followed by a Russian 8"/45, the French 194mm/50, and with the US 7" being the next largest (the British 7.5" guns were all in turrets or the open mountings in HMS Hawkins). There were some Russian 9" casemate mounts from the 1880s as well.
QuoteCarth, what does showing a couple of 'small' guns in casemate mounts with no power assist prove if I know that such guns were hand-loaded anyway even in WW2, independent of the mount they were installed in - be that turret, deck mount or casemate?
Because the text on the site with the 6" diagram mentioned loading equipment... meaning it wasn't entirely hand-loaded. The second site I showed mentioned mechanical rammers, meaning that the shells might have been transferred by hand, but loading was power-assisted.
Now, if none of these are taking place in hand-loaded casemates with heavy guns:
1.) we know that the 200lb shells of the 7.5" guns suffered ROF problems because of manual loading.
2.) the shells of the 11" guns are at least 3x as heavy as the 7.5" gun shell.
3.) if a 7.5" gun loads slower with manual loading, then a 11" will be far less efficient.
It's a logical chain of conclusions supported by fact. I can also point to the ROF of the older broadside battleships that had large guns and manual loading, but didn't want to because of the era difference.
All that being said- I don't think that the ship with 12 6" casemates per side is strange or unreasonable at all. There were British cruisers which mounted 8 per side and devoted more weight to engine space; they had the volume to mount that many 6" guns had the decision been made that firepower was more important than speed. Exactly the same timeframe as well.
My question would be, what prevents a casement from having power loading? Perhaps siming power loaded casements as wing turrets with a note stating that they are limited to casement style movement?
Quote from: Desertfox on May 21, 2012, 02:24:08 PM
My question would be, what prevents a casement from having power loading? Perhaps siming power loaded casements as wing turrets with a note stating that they are limited to casement style movement?
Casematess don't historically have power loading equipment... so Springsharp doesn't devote mass to it. There are also much lighter weights of armor and structure involved. Thus, you can't just assume that bigger calibers will have power loading equipment because they are bigger calibers- because the program doesn't make the same assumptions.
I wouldn't mind your idea about it, DF, except for two things:
1.) stability will be adversely affected, because the turrets cannot be mounted below the main deck. :(
2.) you'd still be paying for the large structural difference between the two gun types.
Here is how the comparison works:
12" casemate with 1" armor all around & 150 roundsDistribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 104 tons, 1.0 %
- Guns: 104 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 8 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 8 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,671 tons, 96.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 274 tons, 2.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
12" turret/barbette with 1" armor all around & 150 roundsDistribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 190 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 190 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 20 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,573 tons, 95.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 274 tons, 2.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
So, we see two things here:
1.) armor would be different in weight- it would be too heavy if we used turret & barbette as a substitute for casemates
2.) there is a marked difference in gun mount weight, which will amount to the heavier mounting and supporting equipment
I REALLY like the idea of finding a work-around, DF... but honestly, we are dealing with ships that are soon to be eclipsed and thus will be used for a limited amount of time. I don't know why we have to devote so much time to debating them. We should just look historically, take those vessels as examples of what is available at this general tech level and run with it.
I don't understand why that is a bad rule of thumb?
NOTE: hull used was 400'x80'x20' with 16' freboard
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 21, 2012, 12:59:03 PM
All that being said- I don't think that the ship with 12 6" casemates per side is strange or unreasonable at all. There were British cruisers which mounted 8 per side and devoted more weight to engine space; they had the volume to mount that many 6" guns had the decision been made that firepower was more important than speed. Exactly the same timeframe as well.
Really? Erm... okay, than how about this one. This is the the ship I had in mid when i named it. I just couldn't fit it on the hull earlier.
CCC, Teutonic Crazy Cruiser Concept laid down 1900
Displacement:
11.603 t light; 12.228 t standard; 15.000 t normal; 17.218 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(492,13 ft / 492,13 ft) x 78,74 ft x (26,25 / 29,21 ft)
(150,00 m / 150,00 m) x 24,00 m x (8,00 / 8,90 m)
Armament:
4 - 8,66" / 220 mm 40,0 cal guns - 308,65lbs / 140,00kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
24 - 8,66" / 220 mm 40,0 cal guns - 308,65lbs / 140,00kg shells, 50 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in any sea
20 - 4,13" / 105 mm 40,0 cal guns - 33,07lbs / 15,00kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in any sea
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
10 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 17,64lbs / 8,00kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
10 double raised mounts
20 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,32lbs / 0,60kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9.506 lbs / 4.312 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5,12" / 130 mm 341,21 ft / 104,00 m 7,22 ft / 2,20 m
Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 147,64 ft / 45,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
3,28 ft / 1,00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 3,94" / 100 mm 288,71 ft / 88,00 m 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Main Belt covers 107% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,87" / 200 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 7,09" / 180 mm
2nd: 7,87" / 200 mm 3,54" / 90 mm 3,94" / 100 mm
3rd: 3,94" / 100 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 1,97" / 50 mm
4th: 1,18" / 30 mm - -
5th: 0,47" / 12 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1,38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 6,30" / 160 mm, Aft 3,94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 23.350 ihp / 17.419 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 6.500nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.989 tons (95% coal)
Complement:
677 - 881
Cost:
£1,369 million / $5,477 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.416 tons, 9,4%
- Guns: 1.416 tons, 9,4%
Armour: 2.942 tons, 19,6%
- Belts: 978 tons, 6,5%
- Armament: 1.234 tons, 8,2%
- Armour Deck: 596 tons, 4,0%
- Conning Towers: 134 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 3.630 tons, 24,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.615 tons, 24,1%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.397 tons, 22,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13.829 lbs / 6.273 Kg = 42,6 x 8,7 " / 220 mm shells or 1,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,79
Metacentric height 9,0 ft / 2,7 m
Roll period: 11,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,27
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,516 / 0,532
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 11,15 ft / 3,40 m
- Forward deck: 25,00%, 11,15 ft / 3,40 m, 11,15 ft / 3,40 m
- Aft deck: 30,00%, 11,15 ft / 3,40 m, 11,15 ft / 3,40 m
- Quarter deck: 20,00%, 11,15 ft / 3,40 m, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
- Average freeboard: 11,71 ft / 3,57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106,3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 82,2%
Waterplane Area: 26.205 Square feet or 2.434 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 616 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,41
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: KWorld on May 04, 2012, 10:09:56 AM
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 04, 2012, 08:17:44 AM
Quote from: KWorld on May 04, 2012, 08:00:10 AM
That wasn't seen as an issue until late in the pre-dreadnought period, as optics and ranges got longer. I suppose it's a question of how much hindsight you want to employ: the more you employ, the less the ships of this period will look like many of the historical ships, because in hindsight, we know better.
Not being able to tell the difference between the 9.2" and 12" splashes isn't 'hindsight'; it is an immediately noticed problem. As Tsushima had already been fought, the knowledge of longer range engagements is already there. In fact it was a well-known enough problem that the Lord Nelson battleships were delayed due to their turrets being packed off to Dreadnought's drydock; they knew the Dreadnought was a superior ship for long range engagements.
Thing is, though, if we're going to use the argument that "all that already happened, everyone knows the lessons learned from that", then why would we be building ships that look like WWI ACs, BBs, etc, rather than dreadnoughts and dreadnought cruisers? The mixed battery battleship was a product of it's environment, where ranges were expected to be short and guns were operating in local control. If ranges aren't expected to be short (because of better rangefinders, etc), then designs shouldn't look historical.
KWorld - because there is not enough technological progress to build anything else.
We don't have replicators like in Star Trek.
We don't have unlimited industrial capability.
We don't have the production capacity.
The nations in our game, like those historically, are limited as much by their abilities to build ships and their components as theories. Just because we were able to theorize about an atom bomb in the 1920's doesn't mean that we could build them.
We might know that long-range combat is the more efficient way to do things- we just can't build ships with the specialized technology to fight that far until 1910... and if we choose to limit things by treaty, we can limit them even farther.
Quote from: Nobody on May 21, 2012, 03:02:19 PM
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 21, 2012, 12:59:03 PM
All that being said- I don't think that the ship with 12 6" casemates per side is strange or unreasonable at all. There were British cruisers which mounted 8 per side and devoted more weight to engine space; they had the volume to mount that many 6" guns had the decision been made that firepower was more important than speed. Exactly the same timeframe as well.
Really? Erm... okay, than how about this one. This is the the ship I had in mid when i named it. I just couldn't fit it on the hull earlier.
As long as one is willing to accept the limitation of ROF due to the lower efficiency of the casemates (which means that only 1/2 of the guns can fire per turn) then... well, it would be allowable.
Personally, I think we are spending FAR too much time debating the pre-start ships.
What can we do to simplify this process?
You can't mount turrets below the freeboard? *grumble* I liked the Russian battleship with the secondaries below the freeboard...
How about devoting misc weight to power loading equipment? Say take gun size in in and multiply by 5. So a 12" gun requires 60 tons, an 8" gun 40 tons and so on? If you have it you don't get a RoF penalty, if you don't well the guns will fire slower.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 21, 2012, 03:27:34 PM
You can't mount turrets below the freeboard? *grumble* I liked the Russian battleship with the secondaries below the freeboard...
How about devoting misc weight to power loading equipment? Say take gun size in in and multiply by 5. So a 12" gun requires 60 tons, an 8" gun 40 tons and so on? If you have it you don't get a RoF penalty, if you don't well the guns will fire slower.
Problem I can see with this is that it opens up a loophole for the "how many guns can bear in a broadside" rule, and it encourages things that are totally odd like my AQY battleship with 6 12" guns in turrets and 4 12" casemates.
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 21, 2012, 03:25:08 PM
Personally, I think we are spending FAR too much time debating the pre-start ships.
What can we do to simplify this process?
IMO, just point back to the already decided rule on how many guns can bear on a broadside, and the assumption that casemate guns are not power-operated. The combination will allow people who REALLY want to do so for story reasons to build a monstrosity like my battlehip with the 12" casemates, without forcing everyone to go down the same road in case there's a war that breaks out very early on.
Also, if the assumption is that pre-start ships PROBABLY won't be that important, don't worry about what they look like too much.
Quote from: KWorld on May 21, 2012, 03:36:57 PM
Quote from: Carthaginian on May 21, 2012, 03:25:08 PM
Personally, I think we are spending FAR too much time debating the pre-start ships.
What can we do to simplify this process?
IMO, just point back to the already decided rule on how many guns can bear on a broadside, and the assumption that casemate guns are not power-operated. The combination will allow people who REALLY want to do so for story reasons to build a monstrosity like my battlehip with the 12" casemates, without forcing everyone to go down the same road in case there's a war that breaks out very early on.
Also, if the assumption is that pre-start ships PROBABLY won't be that important, don't worry about what they look like too much.
Ok- willing to go with that advice on the startup rules.
And while the ships won't be important in the long run, they will be important early on.
We have to make sure that things are 'fair enough' but not 'too restrictive.'
Maybe we should just look into the SpringSharp Manual and definitions:
Quote from: SpringSharp
Casemate mount – Pivot or ring mount gun that may have integrated shell handling all behind an armoured casemate. Armour restricted to face and hoist. All side and low mounted guns that are not broadside mounts will be considered to be casemate mounts.
Maybe we should just look into the SpringSharp Manual and definitions:
Quote from: SpringSharp
Casemate mount – Pivot or ring mount gun that may have integrated shell handling all behind an armoured casemate. Armour restricted to face and hoist. All side and low mounted guns that are not broadside mounts will be considered to be casemate mounts.
But it's not apparent that Springsharp is accounting for 'powered' shell handling as opposed to 'integrated' shell handling. 'Integrated' shell handling could be nothing more than block and tackle; it would still require manpower and thus be slower and less efficient... but it is integral to the mount.
PS: apologies for the 'edited' notice- I didn't change the message- I hit the wrong button, but I repaired it.
A rather hopeless attempt from me to design an early cruiser...
More like a too big, too slow and too poorly armored destroyer which is missing its torpedos if you ask me.
CL, Teutonic small Ccruiser laid down 1895
Displacement:
3.123 t light; 3.226 t standard; 4.000 t normal; 4.619 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(393,70 ft / 393,70 ft) x 45,93 ft x (16,40 / 18,25 ft)
(120,00 m / 120,00 m) x 14,00 m x (5,00 / 5,56 m)
Armament:
6 - 4,13" / 105 mm 35,0 cal guns - 33,12lbs / 15,02kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1895 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 4,13" / 105 mm 35,0 cal guns - 33,12lbs / 15,02kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
20 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,39lbs / 0,63kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 359 lbs / 163 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0,98" / 25 mm 298,56 ft / 91,00 m 7,55 ft / 2,30 m
Ends: 0,79" / 20 mm 95,14 ft / 29,00 m 8,14 ft / 2,48 m
Upper: 0,79" / 20 mm 255,91 ft / 78,00 m 7,22 ft / 2,20 m
Main Belt covers 117% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,39" / 10 mm 0,79" / 20 mm
2nd: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,79" / 20 mm 0,79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1,18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1,77" / 45 mm, Aft 1,18" / 30 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8.057 ihp / 6.011 Kw = 19,50 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.393 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
250 - 326
Cost:
£0,321 million / $1,285 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 61 tons, 1,5%
- Guns: 61 tons, 1,5%
Armour: 469 tons, 11,7%
- Belts: 173 tons, 4,3%
- Armament: 37 tons, 0,9%
- Armour Deck: 243 tons, 6,1%
- Conning Towers: 16 tons, 0,4%
Machinery: 1.366 tons, 34,1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.228 tons, 30,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 877 tons, 21,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3.923 lbs / 1.780 Kg = 111,1 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,58
Metacentric height 3,4 ft / 1,0 m
Roll period: 10,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 89 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,12
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,77
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,472 / 0,490
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,25 ft / 4,04 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117,5%
Waterplane Area: 11.751 Square feet or 1.092 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 332 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,40
- Overall: 1,00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
To improve matters a bit, you can lower the cruise speed to 10 knots, and consider lowering the freeboard a bit. Also, you could replace the current armor scheme with a protected cruiser scheme, that will save you more tonnage.
> 6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
This doesn't match the number of guns at all, should be single mounts.
Quote from: KWorld on May 30, 2012, 09:22:35 AM
To improve matters a bit, you can lower the cruise speed to 10 knots, and consider lowering the freeboard a bit. Also, you could replace the current armor scheme with a protected cruiser scheme, that will save you more tonnage.
That equals cutting the range by 30%, but it's already rather low for a cruiser.
Evolution: the next generation version of pretty much the same ship:
CL, Teutonic small Ccruiser laid down 1900
Displacement:
3.446 t light; 3.555 t standard; 4.300 t normal; 4.896 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(410,11 ft / 410,11 ft) x 45,93 ft x (16,40 / 18,09 ft)
(125,00 m / 125,00 m) x 14,00 m x (5,00 / 5,51 m)
Armament:
6 - 4,13" / 105 mm 40,0 cal guns - 33,07lbs / 15,00kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1900 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 4,13" / 105 mm 40,0 cal guns - 33,07lbs / 15,00kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
20 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,32lbs / 0,60kg shells, 150 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 357 lbs / 162 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2,17" / 55 mm 305,12 ft / 93,00 m 7,87 ft / 2,40 m
Ends: 1,38" / 35 mm 104,99 ft / 32,00 m 8,14 ft / 2,48 m
Upper: 1,77" / 45 mm 295,28 ft / 90,00 m 7,22 ft / 2,20 m
Main Belt covers 114% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,38" / 35 mm 0,39" / 10 mm 1,57" / 40 mm
2nd: 1,97" / 50 mm 0,79" / 20 mm 1,97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0,39" / 10 mm - 0,79" / 20 mm
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 0,98" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 0,59" / 15 mm Quarter deck: 0,59" / 15 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 2,95" / 75 mm, Aft 2,36" / 60 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9.178 ihp / 6.847 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.341 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
265 - 345
Cost:
£0,346 million / $1,385 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 76 tons, 1,8%
- Guns: 76 tons, 1,8%
Armour: 691 tons, 16,1%
- Belts: 408 tons, 9,5%
- Armament: 42 tons, 1,0%
- Armour Deck: 211 tons, 4,9%
- Conning Towers: 30 tons, 0,7%
Machinery: 1.434 tons, 33,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.235 tons, 28,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 854 tons, 19,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 0,2%
- Hull below water: 10 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4.286 lbs / 1.944 Kg = 121,3 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,57
Metacentric height 3,3 ft / 1,0 m
Roll period: 10,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,11
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,67
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,487 / 0,503
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,25 ft / 4,04 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 114,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117,0%
Waterplane Area: 12.404 Square feet or 1.152 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 65 lbs/sq ft or 319 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,26
- Overall: 1,00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
And me trying a really fast cruiser. Not very successful I would say. Its a protected cruiser as in the rules. Armored belts would be useless anyway, because they would have to be significantly longer than the sip itself.
, Teutonic fast small cruiser laid down 1898
Displacement:
3.521 t light; 3.610 t standard; 4.000 t normal; 4.312 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(479,00 ft / 472,44 ft) x 39,37 ft x (18,04 / 18,99 ft)
(146,00 m / 144,00 m) x 12,00 m x (5,50 / 5,79 m)
Armament:
3 - 4,72" / 120 mm 35,0 cal guns - 44,09lbs / 20,00kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1898 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
20 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 15,0 cal guns - 1,32lbs / 0,60kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1898 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 159 lbs / 72 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1,18" / 30 mm 295,28 ft / 90,00 m 5,00 ft / 1,52 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,39" / 10 mm 1,97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0,47" / 12 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1,18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1,97" / 50 mm, Aft 1,57" / 40 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12.000 ihp / 8.952 Kw = 22,08 kts
Range 2.200nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 703 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
250 - 326
Cost:
£0,399 million / $1,597 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 0,8%
- Guns: 33 tons, 0,8%
Armour: 336 tons, 8,4%
- Belts: 70 tons, 1,8%
- Armament: 15 tons, 0,4%
- Armour Deck: 231 tons, 5,8%
- Conning Towers: 19 tons, 0,5%
Machinery: 1.889 tons, 47,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.246 tons, 31,1%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 479 tons, 12,0%
Miscellaneous weights: 17 tons, 0,4%
- Hull below water: 17 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1.902 lbs / 863 Kg = 36,1 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,40
Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 11,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,42
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,417 / 0,427
Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21,74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -20,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Forward deck: 22,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Aft deck: 33,00%, 8,53 ft / 2,60 m, 8,53 ft / 2,60 m
- Quarter deck: 20,00%, 8,53 ft / 2,60 m, 9,19 ft / 2,80 m
- Average freeboard: 12,62 ft / 3,85 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 155,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103,0%
Waterplane Area: 11.573 Square feet or 1.075 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 62 lbs/sq ft or 302 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,99
- Longitudinal: 1,09
- Overall: 1,00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: Nobody on May 31, 2012, 01:44:48 PM
Quote from: KWorld on May 30, 2012, 09:22:35 AM
To improve matters a bit, you can lower the cruise speed to 10 knots, and consider lowering the freeboard a bit. Also, you could replace the current armor scheme with a protected cruiser scheme, that will save you more tonnage.
That equals cutting the range by 30%, but it's already rather low for a cruiser.
Not too many cruisers of the day had a range of greater than 6000 nm, and a fair number had a lot less. It really depends on what you think you need. Since we don't, at the time these ships are being built, have overseas colonies, I'm not convinced I need a huge amount of range, but you might see it differently.