Now if Rocky wants to run an nice big game of Starfire....
I am so IN......
Charles
While I would be eager to sign up for a Starfire game, I've found that my attempts to play such seem to be freakin' cursed, and that it would therefore probably be better to concentrate on the floating warships rather than the flying ones.
OK... guys, WTF is Starfire, and how can an RPG obsessed nerg get his hands on a copy? ;)
I'm borrowing elements from it, but I wasn't thinking of running a campaign, per se...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfire_(board_wargame)
Now comes the questions:
How is it that SVC made a game I don't know about?
Does ADB own the rights to the game (now or ever), or were lost sometime in the past?
Can one create new races/empires for the game; if yes, is it difficult or easy?
Is it worth the money to order the $50.00 Ultimate package?
*investigates a bit*
HOLY CRAP... the counters look like they were pilfered from SFB!
I'm most familiar with the 'Ultra' incarnation, in which race creation is quite easy and 'building one's own empire' is in fact the entire 'grand strategic' side of the game.
I have only limited familiarity with the rights situation, but I know it's complicated.
No clue about the value of the Ultimate package. I probably wouldn't, but that's 'cause I'm broke as broke and I /think/ I still have my old copy of Ultra floating around somewhere in the digital depths of my HD.
Oh, I know that creating an 'empire' (as in 'taking control of a large area of space) is part of the game... it looks, on the whole, like a modified Federation and Empire setup- with exploration/exploitation playing a larger part than combat. When I typed 'race/empire' I was simply meaning 'species'; in SFB/FedCom/F&E, you generally refer to them as 'empires' as 50% of the time there is more than one 'race' in each 'empire.'
Might just have to spend the annual Gift Card from the in-laws on this one!
Ah. Yes, 'species' can produce mechanical effects on the larger game, both at the tactical and strategic levels. There's a point buy system for what does what, as well as planetary habitability rules. Obviously, the visual appearance or whatever of a species is up to the player.
It's assumed that at start of play each 'empire' is monospecies, although amalgamations are possible.
Ok I split Starfire discussion off into a seperate thread....
Starfire is a great system its economics are easily understood.
If you want to form a Colony on a newly Discovered Moon... you consult the Charts for the Habitiabilty Index of the Moon and then you pay to build the Colony. You also Pay to move the Colonist to the Colony and depending on the Distance [Number of systems away from where they are comming from] you might pay even more.
It has a technology tree.... From Frigates and Destroyers armed with primative missiles, Lasers, and such up to Super Dreadnaughts with Hetrodyne Lasers or even Carriers with space born fighters capable of launching strikes from outside the range of even the longest ranged missiles. You have to develop a tech level and then you have to develop so many of the items on that tech level before you can start working on the next tech level.
For those who have an aversion to spread sheets well I have found no other way to play the game even when you outlaw things like Asteroid Colonies because tracking them all just takes to much time and you want to limit income to a reasonable level it requires a spread sheet of some sort once you get beyond say 3 or 4 star systems.
QuoteWarning for those of you interested in building a huge exploration fleet and jumping thru the 1st worm hole you find well you could wind up incountering a potentially hostile species who is up to 2 Tech Levels higher then you. As an example you largest ship type is a Heavy Cruiser and their is a Dreadnaught they have strike fighters and long range missiles and you do not... and you just pissed them off by revealing to them the existance of worm holes and invading their home system.
Not averse to spreadsheets... I'm just unable to write them. ;)
Sounds like a fun game if you can get several like-minded people together to play it.
There are computer support options available for both 3rd Edition and Ultra, although I believe that the latter has a nominal fee associated these days and the former was, last I checked, given to legal troubles.
But for a proper Starfire game, I'd damn well learn spreadsheets.
Problem with starfire is it tends to get bogged down when there are more than say 10 system per player. Big changes to game between Imperial Starfire and 3rd Ed and even more changes between 3rd and Ultra.
I like 3rd Ed the best but it does have problems. A fun game, I have run several campaigns but I keep having problems with players doing turns and the like. Starfire Assistant is the best support aid out there but its very complex for new people and it has no instructions to speak of. So its hard for new people to use the damn thing.
When doing games I tend to do stuff like limit colonization only to Terran worlds just to keep the economics from getting totally out of hand.
Also use a bunch of other home brew rules like graded leaders and the like.
Might try to run a campaign next year some time.
Michael
If you start accepting 'teh n00bz,' let me know.
I've got good experience with SVC's tactical games, but have never tried anything strategic. If the rules still follow the 'feel' of his other games, I should be able to pick things up with a degree of ease.
While I'd still be up for a 3rd Edition Revised game, if I can find my rulebook, I'd prefer Ultra. The 'evolutionary' tech paradigm makes more sense to me, I like not being locked in to The One True Path (as y'all may've noticed already, here!), and it comes stock with both 'economic reduction' features, graded leadership rules, and a variety of interesting optional rules.
Also, Starfire Online (http://www.starfireonline.com/) is considerably better documented than I remember SA being. I could actually figure out what I was supposed to be doing.
Quote from: Carthaginian on December 12, 2011, 12:11:55 PM
If you start accepting 'teh n00bz,' let me know.
I've got good experience with SVC's tactical games, but have never tried anything strategic. If the rules still follow the 'feel' of his other games, I should be able to pick things up with a degree of ease.
Big changes between the simple tactical game that Stephen V. Cole first created back in the early 80's and the current system. Also there is the issue of getting a complete copy of the game.
3rd Ed was an update to the tactical combat system only. Sky Marshal II was an electronic Product that overhauled the Economic System from Imperial Starfire. So there were lots of problems but it was very workable. Even though its been like 8 years now I still get pissed when I think about Marvin and Steve blowing things up. The Unified Rules Document was 99% finished. I have my E Copy but I can't do anything with the damn thing of course beyond my small group of friend who all have copies of Imperial Starfire, 3rd Ed Rev and SM2 so we can use the URD as correction as needed.
If you could get a copy of this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starfire-3rd-Edition-Revised-Rule-Book-Task-Force-Games-/260912661977?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbf9b45d9
and say Sky Marshal II
That would be enough to do it.
There are some webpages out there that have information.
http://18inchfly.net/starfire/index.html
Here is a campaign page of my own from 10 years ago that is still up for some reason. It was also the longest run campaign at 70+ turns.
http://www.speakeasy.org/~mtrohde/starfire/index.html
The forum from the last game I ran that broke down over the summer.
bgb.yuku.com/
Quote from: Valles on December 12, 2011, 12:38:23 PM
While I'd still be up for a 3rd Edition Revised game, if I can find my rulebook, I'd prefer Ultra. The 'evolutionary' tech paradigm makes more sense to me, I like not being locked in to The One True Path (as y'all may've noticed already, here!), and it comes stock with both 'economic reduction' features, graded leadership rules, and a variety of interesting optional rules.
Also, Starfire Online (http://www.starfireonline.com/) is considerably better documented than I remember SA being. I could actually figure out what I was supposed to be doing.
My problem with Ultra is that it has a very different feel than 3rd, its much more evolutionary in terms of tech dev. Also the game is designed for shorter campaigns I feel with speed up economics. Starfire 3rd is an arms race, get the break through tech. Never played a campaign with Ultra. It landed rather like a lead weight among my group. I don't see me every playing with it to be honest.
Michael
Oh... the Memories...70+ Turns and things were going so well.... I wish it hadnt blown up none of the other games have approached it in Role Playing or pure unadultered mass combat.
Remember my Warnings about people exploring to fast.... My favorite combat was doing a warp point assult to recover a system taken from one of my Allies by the Evil High Tech Non Player Race. We cleared the Warp point and then the Nasty Aliens had developed Cloaking Technology.... It was painful closing thru the enemies missile swarms and fighter strikes from Cloaked Carriers and Super Dreadnaughts. The only reason we won was overwhelming numbers and even then I think we simply obsorbed most of their missiles on our Point Defense Shields and Hulls. We lost 2 to 3 SDN for each of theirs on the Battle Field and Drove them from the System thru sheer stuborness and numbers.
The Roleplaying came when I finally learned the Enemies language and tried to negotiate peace, between the Aliens and my Ally.
So great memories but the amount of work for a ten player game well that would require multipule Moderators.
The one game was lots of fun. I agree we will have to see where I am at next summer as I just don't have the time right now.
Michael
I think I've seen the boxes, but never played.
Star Fleet Battles's Federation & Empire was what I attempted to play. However we found that combats with 20+ ships on each side, plus battlestations and minefields, waves of 100+ Kzinti drones*...
However those fights were really really long, so we staggered out fo the Lyran-Kzin opening and had some Klingon/Hydran action set up and called it. Did some Traveller combats too.
*Hint- the combined firepower of a Lyran fleet at range can detonate Kzinti frigates or light cruisers as a means of defense against drone waves. Much to the consternation of the Kzinti player.
INTERESTING TACTIC!!! I play Fartbreathers (Hydrans) so I never really deal with Kzinti-level drone barrages... but the occasional E4D does get my goat by draining by phaser-G's- which all good Hydran captian knows is our best heavy weapon!!!
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on December 14, 2011, 04:57:54 PM
I think I've seen the boxes, but never played.
Star Fleet Battles's Federation & Empire was what I attempted to play. However we found that combats with 20+ ships on each side, plus battlestations and minefields, waves of 100+ Kzinti drones*...
However those fights were really really long, so we staggered out fo the Lyran-Kzin opening and had some Klingon/Hydran action set up and called it. Did some Traveller combats too.
*Hint- the combined firepower of a Lyran fleet at range can detonate Kzinti frigates or light cruisers as a means of defense against drone waves. Much to the consternation of the Kzinti player.
I played Federation & Empire more than a few times. Some place I have a complete home brew rules for doing a 4X type board game using the F&E system as its base.
Just checked and I see that the game is still in print!
http://www.starfleetgames.com/federationandempire.shtml
http://store.starfleetstore.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=S&Category_Code=08
Michael
Not only IN PRINT, Mike... it is SOON TO BE UPDATED!!! I play SFB, FedCom, Prime Directive (D20 & GURPS) and want to get into F&E, though there is no one around to play it. I also have SFC:OP on my hard drive after 10 years.
A 4x with SFB races... that would be awesome.
TITAN IS MINE!!!
Well if Summer comes along Mike and your willing I will help moderate because well you will simply need help lots and lots of help.
Fights between huge fleets in Star Fleet Battles well we used to do it simply instead of rolling dice for every missile and beam weapon shoot we used statistics. You fired 1000 in 10 100 missiles savlvo and you hit with 70% of them so that 700 missile hits. The Enemys point defense rating against those missiles is 60% so 420 of them hit. 10 of the Enemy Ships are hit each with 42 missiles. That sort of thing no if those were capital ship antimatter warheads each enemy Super Dreadnaught just took 42x4 or 168 damage to shields, then armor then internal system then out the space at the back of the ship..... ??? :o
Realistically my example is too large because a salvo is all the missiles from a single data link of ships basically a Time on Target where you hope to swamp the point defense and get more then 20% of your missiles thru the defenses.
The HTK or Hits to Kill numbers on Super Dreadnaughts with improved armor and shields well they can be quite good but their are weapons that ignore armor, those that ignore shields and the nasty primary beam the does both ;)
We actually did data sheets per ship, rolled per weapon, and had the drones moving by the chart...though we did use 1 counter to represent many drones.
Statistics may have been the better way to go :)
We had allowed some 'prewar' time to build and/or modify vessels. So the Kzinti player had modified with expanded sensors and expanded racks, would fire a salvo at the end of 1 round, then 8 impulses later in the next, with scatterpacks trundling along as the 3rd wave, handing drone controls on the smaller ships off to the bigger ones or the battlestations. Plus he liked to use the big drones for more damage/damage res per drone control. 20 ships with 4-6 racks with the command vessels handling up to 12, I guess he could flush up to 160-200 drones in a 1/4 turn. A turn or two later then when the 1st wave died, pop the scatterpacks right behind the 2nd wave and follow with more volleys.
It was really a nasty nasty thing to look at. Detonating his frigates seemed like the best area defense strategy I could come up with.
The Lyran ESGs and P-IIIs made for good point defense, and the P-IIs were often pressed into service, and I think I even popped out shuttles for point defense...but I had spent pre-war upgrading Lyran disruptors so I would up picking individual light Kzinti ships and salvo firing until they exploded. There was at least once when I ran Minesweepers ahead of my fleet, dropping mines in the path of the drone wave... I still lost ships, he just swamped my defenses, but I was taking out a huge %- I want to say 80% but it's been waaay to long.
I think we had one Hydran/Klingon skirmish, I know we had one Klingon/Kzinti fleet battle. I remember I had some modified C-9s I was proud of, but the Klingons did not fare as well against the Kzinti as the Lyrans did. I think I had them completed, but never got any B-10s engaged. Anyhow, we realized that we'd never have the time to actually finish the campaign - 40+ ships on a map just took to long to fight - and called it.
Well in my Example above where my Ally and I were taking on an NPR I think we deployed something like 30 or 40 Dreadnaughts [DN]some being Carriers. We had upwards of the same numbers in Heavy Cruisers [CA] and the Enemy had I think 6-8 DN and 4-8 Carriers.
We used Missile Pod Carriers to clear the Warp Point and then send some minesweepers thru but the enemy was standing off the Warp Point in cloak. We then moved to engage the planet leaving some ships to picket the Warp Point.
Basically we got hit in deep space by a force that was in Cloak the only way we could tell where they were was by watching the Missile Salvoes hitting us and from where we lost track of the Fighters while they Rearmed. The good news is all our fighters were kept as Fleet defense after the first strike there werent many of the enemy fighters left. Even Strike Fighter 1 can engage Strike fighter 4's in dogfights when they have numbers on their side inside the Point Defense envelope of their own ships.
I think the enemy broke and ran when one of my Data Links got targeting info on one of the Carrier Groups and Salvoed its missile load at them. My ships were effectively Vertical Launch systems no way to reload but a single very massive dense salvo. I actually did no manage to destroy the Cloaked Ships but all three Carriers were knocked out of Cloak, Shields Down, and out of Data Link and my Cruisers were then able to close on the Cripples and finish them with beam fire all the other ships just never reapeared and the remaining fighters flew off into space where I am assuming the other carriers moved around to pick them up.
I got good scans of all sorts of technology which I conveninently didnt completely share with my ALLY....???
But the point of my ramble was we managed to do this fight with very few rolls and probably in under 3 to 4 hours. To sim a battle its was fast forward thru hours of bordom leading to about 1 hour of combat time [Terror as the enemy slowly picked apart my Allies data links and swated one of mine as well] I think the enemy was trying to destroy our data links so the rest of his fleet could attack but he failed to do that because of good planning on our part. We retook the lost system and the enmey retired behind his Warp Point Defenses in the next system.
And then I had a break thru and we could actually communicate with the enemy capturing the crews of those three carriers treating them well recovering the life pods well that is the way to find common ground and make peace.
Miketr...
Wasnt it John Mcdougal who tried to get us to play that Huge Star Trek game that sounds like Federation and Empires..... I really really did not like that Game especially as I was constantly being forced to play the Federation and had to wait while Mcdougal and Chris exploited the Rules so that the Romulans and the Klingons could build up to their maximum while the Federation just went peacefully along its way waiting for the inevitable attack in overwhelming strength once the Enemy had completed its Conquests of other races.
Starfire has some elements of that game but their is not Dice Roll to determine when you can or cant go to full war time economy. You can spend your money building Shipyards and expanding your colonies basically investment in Economy and Infrastructure or you can just start building More and Bigger ships and then paying maintenance on them.....
Its a fun balancing act...
Charles
Yes that was Fed and Emp Charles.
I am wondering if I should put out the age of sail idea again.
Michael
Quote from: miketr on February 10, 2012, 01:50:11 PM
I am wondering if I should put out the age of sail idea again.
Michael
I have some research I'm willing to share, its only from Wikipedia but it is the length of construction time and the cost of various Royal Navy ships from the mid-1600s through the 1830s. I concentrated on wooden sailing vessels since that is what I was much more interested in.
If I was going to do it, I would use this for the combat system.
http://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/7090001.PDF
Other than limiting boarding actions as the system makes such god like.
Michael
You can tell I have a lot of time on my hands, I read the game manual you had linked to. I've read it before, and it looks interesting. What I'm concerned about would be how we figure out how we're going to build the ships and if we'll just use the standardized ships from that game. So no 200 gun monstrosities. And very few tiny 1 gun gunboats. Or whatever it is they had as the tiniest...
I'm interested in just playing, whether its age of steel and big guns or age of sail matters not all that much to me.
My assumption is to limit people to the 'historic' designs available. I have a land combat system to use that is of the same time period.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/254/empires-in-arms
There is a reasonable economic engine for the campaign games. Costs of things like Infantry, Cav, Guard Infantry and buying a ship of the line. Note the game has the naval system as most abstracted but if you make some assumptions... Like that the default SOL is a 74, you can make some abstractions from there.
Problem with Starfire is the rules are out of print and finding enough copies for people.
Michael
Why not use the ship list at the end of the "wooden ships and iron men" game? It gives you enough variety.
Anyways I'm up for it.