Greetings I am your host. In this thread we will be making an attempt to setup the world while the rest of the mod team fights over economics.
A couple of ground rules for us to go over.
1) We would like nations to make sense in terms of history and geography. Even if we are changing history all over the place we want things to line up.
2) While the players are going to have a great deal of latitude the Moderators reserve the right to VETO things in the interest making the game run smoothly
3) The moderators want people NEXT to each other in geographic terms. So requests for people in North Africa by themselves, South Central Asia, etc are going to have be shot down.
4) The intention is that each player area (EUROPE, NORTH AMERICA and EAST ASIA) will have a number of weaker NPC powers. This will give players something to interact with, sell stuff too, trade with, attempt to bully and or annex. Also each area will be closed off on the land side by powerful land based NPC nations. For example if we have Mexico as in North America then to its south will be a nation that might be a naval piggy me but is very powerful and will not be possible for Mexico to just Blitz in a RISK like bid to break into South America. The same will be done in Europe and Asia.
Africa, South America and Central Asia, etc are to be populated with a combination of territory open for colonization and failed former colonies now independent nations if of a weak and unstable sort.
5) DA BLANK MAP Thanks to SNIP for helping me with it.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/848/largeblankmap.png/
| Player | Pick-1 | Pick-2 | Pick-3 | Pick-4 | Pick 5 | Pick 6 |
| Valles | Japan-Korea | Pacific-NW | Russia | China | | |
| Miketr | Balkans-Turkey | GB | Northern Germany | East Asia | | |
| Snip | Pacific-NW | GB | Israel | Philippines | | |
| P3D | Hungary-Dalmatia | Japan | Super-Texas | France | | |
| Darman | New England | Denmark | Taiwan | GB | | |
| Nobody | Germany | East Coast | SE Asia | Europe | | |
| Kaiser Kirk | Persia | GB+Brittany | Norse-Kingdom | Persia | California | Seven Tribes (US South East) |
| Logi | Caribbean Islands | Scandinavia | Japan/Korea | North East US | | |
| TexanCowboy | Frisian Empire | Novgorod/Scandinavia | Texas | Latvian Empire | | |
| Korpen | Nordic Nations | Australia | Newfoundland | GB | | |
| Jefgte | ANY | | | | | |
| Desertfox | Mexico | | | | | |
| Delta Force | Austria-Hungary | Japanese Empire | North East US | Western US | | |
| PyscoWard | Philippines | | | | | |
| Walter | Japan | Canada | Netherlands | Argentina | | |
Rough placement of people (NOT SET IN STONE)
Europe
Miketr Balkans-Turkey
P3D Hungary-Dalmatia
Nobody Germany
Kaiser Kirk GB+Brittany
Korpen Nordic Nations
Jefgte Iberia
North America
Desertfox Mexico
Logi Caribbean Islands
Snip Pacific-NW
Darman New England
TexanCowboy Texas
Asia
Valles Japan-Korea
PyscoWard - Philippines
We need one person in Western Europe and Jefgte said he was willing to take anything so we could put him in France, Italy or Iberia to fill in the hole there.
Here is an example set of what we are looking for from people, IE
IT IS NOT CANON AT ALL BUT AN EXAMPLE!
Guinness - English Speaking America (south)
DesertFox - Mexico (presumed first choice)
Logi - Lower Florida, Cuba, the Caribbean
Snip - Pacific Northwest
Darman - English Speaking America (north)
N. America NPCs: California-Nevada, The Texas Republic, The Iroquois Confederation, French N. America, The Great Plains (Aka Sioux Lands), Unsorted lands in Central America who aren't Mexico
Sketch back story:
N. American history is largely as OTL until the French and Indian War (the 7 Years War in Europe). Unlike OTL history, the war in N. America went quite a bit better for the French. The result is the French hold on to all of Quebec, and the lands north of Quebec, formerly held by the British are ceded to the French. In return the British receive claim to all formerly French lands south of the Ohio River and east of the Mississippi River, with the exception of a parcel east of the Mississippi near Baton Rouge. The British fare better in the negotiated peace to the south, acquiring Spanish holdings north of the James River in OTL Florida. Spain continues to hold the Florida peninsula south of that point.
The French and British both assent to recognizing the Iroquois Confederation's holdings as approximately OTL Indiana and Illinois. Many members of Iroquois tribes migrate west from their traditional territories in Western New York as a result.
The war was extremely costly, and the French and British both seek to refill their treasuries by taxing their North American colonies. The resulting crushing taxes in both the British and French held leads to widespread dissatisfaction and unrest. This flashes over first in the British colony of Massachusetts, where by the 1770s a state of open revolt exists. British regulars are defeated at Lexington and Concord and later at Bunker Hill. Eventually delegates from northern English speaking colonies of MA, RI, CT, NY, NJ, PA, and DE convene in Philadelphia to sign what they called the Declaration of Independence, but what would become known as the Philadelphia Declaration, affirming their right to self rule.
To the South, colonists in the colonies of MD, VA, NC, SC, and GA are equally dissatisfied, but a British landing and show of force in Charleston deters their participation in Philadelphia. Southern colonists begrudgingly march in their Militias north under orders of British regulars, with a Virginian named George Washington as the ranking Continental. The combined British and Southern army is defeated in a series of running battles starting outside Georgetown, MD by Northern forces commanded by Nathaniel Greene and his second in command, Benedict Arnold. The British never come close to their goal of taking Philadelphia, and the war settles into a stalemate along a line just south of Gettysburg, PA.
The British, menaced by renewed war in Europe with the French and their erstwhile Spanish allies cannot commit sufficient forces to North America to end the stalemate. Southern Colonists taste for war, never strong, disappears, and the British N. American Army is plagued by desertion. Eventually, King George III is forced to accept a negotiated peace, cemented at the 1778 Treaty of Boston.
The British, shackled with war debt, and in a strategically tenuous position in Europe and elsewhere, effectively withdraw from N. America. The southern colonies remain nominally loyal to the crown well into the 19th century, as greater and greater freedom is granted them by a series of acts of devolution in parliament. Officially it is the policy of the United States of New England that they remain at war with the Southern Colonies, and in reaction the states of MD and VA pull together in an explicit treaty of mutual defense, which would eventually be extended to all of the Southern colonies. Finally, around 1815, the Southern States appeal for true independence from the Crown in London, which is granted. The Confederate States of America is born, it's first capital in Charleston, SC.
Meanwhile Spain, dominated as they are by the French and French interests, and having already lost control of large sections of South America, begin losing their grip on their North American holdings. First to go is New Spain, which takes on the national name "Mexico", and encompasses initially all of OTL Mexico in addition to OTL Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and parts of Colorado. The Mexicans declare themselves to be a Republic, but are in reality a dictatorship. Soon after the rest of the Spanish empire in the Western Hemisphere fractures completely. The territories of Florida, Cuba, and the West Indies pool together for mutual defense, though in reality the entire area is sparsely populated.
Spain's disintegration makes French holdings in N. America tenuous, and the French fear British reapproachment with it's colonies. The American southern colonies, not yet one nation, cooperate in mounting expeditions west into the OTL states of AL, MS, TN and KY. The USNE continues to menace their borders with Quebec. Eventually, the French choose Quebec over their southern colony of New France, and cede those lands to the Southern states in a series of land sales, resulting in GA, NC, and VA gaining lands across the Mississippi, and a new flood of settlers west, eventually settling as far as Texas.
By 1840, Texas is majority English speaking, and feeling a greater affinity to the CSA than to Mexico, enter into open revolt. With military aid from the CSA, Texas declares it's independence. 7 years later gold is discovered in California, and the weak and distant government in Mexico City cannot resist overland and overseas migration, largely from the USNE and CSA to the area around San Francisco. Soon enough the population of California explodes and by 1855 California declares it's independence, again backed by military aid from the CSA, but this time also with the tacit support of the USNE government in Philadelphia.
To the North, the pacific northwest has been slowly colonized by the Russians, but other strategic interests eventually lead to the stream of people and support from Russia being cut off. The discovery of gold in the Yukon in the 1890s brings on a second gold rush. Russia, which had more or less neglected it's North American possessions becomes interested again, but the massive influx of immigrants across the continent from the CSA and USNE, as well as from the south in California swells the Yukon's population, and eventually they too sue for their independence.
There's a lot more history here involving canals and railroads, a somewhat less industrialized USNE than we'd expect OTL, and a somewhat more industrialized CSA, etc. etc. but fast forward to the 1880s...
By 1880, the Iroquois and Sioux are feeling the pressure from the east. The USNE's population has exploded, but the amount of farmable land has become limited, leading to a feeling that the nation must expand further west. To the South, the southerners maintain the tenuous peace with their northern neighbors, but also warily eye Florida and Cuba and their vast sugarcane fields, citrus farms, and numerous pirate havens. Mexico, under more nationalistic and aggressive leadership has made it it's stated policy objective to retake California and Texas. To the west, millions eke out an existence extracting precious metals from the mountains, while both the English and Spanish speaking California and Russian and English speaking Yukon rapidly industrialize.
So I think, maybe, if we can all agree on the general "who goes where" part of this exercise, we can then break up and go work on specifics by region/continent. So I'd go work with the Norte Americanos, P3D would go work with the Europeans, etc. to flesh out details of back story, borders, etc. When we get to that point, we'll start threads for each of Europe, N. America and Asia. This will help us parcel the work without it getting too messy (I hope). For spots where the three units need to interface, the mods + Mike and P3D* will hash that stuff out.
BTW: I really think we need one if not two more Asian countries. We still need to slot Charles somewhere, but that leaves us needing another one. Food for thought.
*(A team I hereby christen unimaginatively the Nverse Four Steering Group, aka the N4SG for future reference).
So with picks out in the open is there any interest in people moving around a bit? People that have NOT spoken up please speak up?
Also to clear up the plan is that there will be 4 MOD nations (P3D, CTWATERMAN, GUINNESS and MIKETR) that will be stronger than the players. In effect part of the MOD nations function is to prevent people from blitzing the weaker nations at the get go.
Player nations are to be same economic strength.
EDIT: YAH ME MIKE SPEAK ENGRISH GOOOD! RAH!
I'm willing to move to Europe with the Frisians, if possible....
One Question, how is Texas an NPC and my nation at the same time?
QuoteTo the South, the southerners maintain the tenuous peace with their northern neighbors, but also warily eye Florida and Cuba and their vast sugarcane fields, citrus farms, and numerous pirate havens.
Wait what? Just to make sure, does that make me something of a backwater nation? Pirate Havens seems to signal that to me.
I was hoping for a bit more industrialization and economic strength (granted not manpower heavy). ??? Not something like Ireland in N3.
Logi & TexanCowboy
Quote from: miketr on June 01, 2011, 02:34:00 PM
Here is an example set of what we are looking for from people, IE IT IS NOT CANON AT ALL BUT AN EXAMPLE!
I thought so, but just wanted to make sure.
I have been toying with kitbashing/completely making up a culture for the NW, would that be an acceptable thing due to my relative geographic isolation?
Tex: I just missed you in the example.
Quote from: snip on June 01, 2011, 05:50:03 PM
I have been toying with kitbashing/completely making up a culture for the NW, would that be an acceptable thing due to my relative geographic isolation?
Probably. The idea is that continental/regional history would be a group exercise.
Quote from: miketr on June 01, 2011, 02:34:00 PM
Rough placement of people (NOT SET IN STONE)
Europe
Miketr Balkans-Turkey
P3D Hungary-Dalmatia
Nobody Germany
Kaiser Kirk GB+Brittany
Korpen Nordic Nations
Jefgte Iberia
North America
Desertfox Mexico
Logi Caribbean Islands
Snip Pacific-NW
Darman New England
TexanCowboy Texas
Asia
Valles Japan-Korea
PyscoWard - Philippines
Did you forget to place Walter?
We haven't placed anybody. The summary list of regional requests predates hearing from Walter I think.
What Guinness said.
A quick question for people.
Since we have like ZERO real interest for Asia and everyone that is interested wants to play Japan would people with a Asia pick be willing to MOVE out to North America / Europe? That or we NEED people to make picks in asia OTHER than Japan.
Michael
Well, you could always dump me in China. :) Forgot about that.
Well, let me go through my decision-making process:
- 'Oooh, I can use a language and culture I know about ahead of time! I'll pick Japan!'
- 'Hmmm, as a backup, if I'm going to force something actually original down the boring ones' throats I'll need to pick an area that could be a culture hearth, but both of the ones I can think of are in South America and thus blocked off for 'colonist's privilege'. The valley of California might do pretty well... but the Willamette has a nicer climate so I'll go with that as a first pick.'
- 'Europe, how boring. Where can I do something interesting... Ottoman Empire? Well, maybe.'
- 'Well, China's close to my first pick, and it has a lot to work with...'
So, given the way the setup structure has already dictated at least one significant compromise? No, I will not volunteer to move.
Quotebut the Willamette has a nicer climate
Sure, if you like your rain ;D
My picks are as following:
1. Italy/Greece
2. Gulf coast focused around florida
3. Guandong
Quote from: miketr on June 02, 2011, 06:05:44 AM
What Guinness said.
A quick question for people.
Since we have like ZERO real interest for Asia and everyone that is interested wants to play Japan would people with a Asia pick be willing to MOVE out to North America / Europe? That or we NEED people to make picks in asia OTHER than Japan.
Michael
We could always open up some of the medium tier powers in Europe, like Spain, Italy, Portugal, the Netherlands, etc.
I think people are hesitent to play Asian nations other than Japan because historically they did not fare too well and so there is little to go off of. The only major powers in the region are China and Japan, and with the others only Siam retained independence.
As in OTL, the center of action is likely to be Europe I think, since it would take a major point of divergence to have countries other than China, Japan, and Siam be on equal terms with Europe.
Quote from: Delta Force on June 02, 2011, 11:47:05 PM
We could always open up some of the medium tier powers in Europe, like Spain, Italy, Portugal, the Netherlands, etc.
I think people are hesitent to play Asian nations other than Japan because historically they did not fare too well and so there is little to go off of. The only major powers in the region are China and Japan, and with the others only Siam retained independence.
As in OTL, the center of action is likely to be Europe I think, since it would take a major point of divergence to have countries other than China, Japan, and Siam be on equal terms with Europe.
I also think it is that with the Island taken it is quite tricky to cut loose to suitable piece of mainland china without it having a strong focus on its overland connections with the rest of China.
Then it would be harder to motivate a naval focus of any significance, a similar situation to Russia, the potential areas for expansion is all overland rather then overseas.
Quote from: miketr on June 01, 2011, 02:34:00 PM
1) We would like nations to make sense in terms of history and geography. Even if we are changing history all over the place we want things to line up.
Kaiser Kirk GB+Brittany
Sketch back story:
N. American history is largely as OTL until the French and Indian War (the 7 Years War in Europe). Unlike OTL history, the war in N. America went quite a bit better for the French. The result is the French hold on to all of Quebec, and the lands north of Quebec, formerly held by the British are ceded to the French. In return the British receive claim to all formerly French lands south of the Ohio River and east of the Mississippi River, with the exception of a parcel east of the Mississippi near Baton Rouge. The British fare better in the negotiated peace to the south, acquiring Spanish holdings north of the James River in OTL Florida. Spain continues to hold the Florida peninsula south of that point.
Hmm some issues.
1. Since "Asia" has been narrowed to "East Asia"...so no Persians- No, not willing to move out of Europe.
2. One of the things I found appealing was the idea of new nations in the place of the old. So my intent was a "Celtic" nation- not quite "English". Not necessarily the mother country of a bunch of colonies off in America. Involvement on the continent would drain some of those resources. So I'm not thrilled to have such a major portion of my nations back story dictated.
3. It's really hard to tell what is going to come out of the cloistered one's discussions, but the little bits I've seen so far lead me to think I won't be participating, so GB could go to Jefgte as well. Which would solve #2.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on June 03, 2011, 12:11:18 AM
Quote from: miketr on June 01, 2011, 02:34:00 PM
1) We would like nations to make sense in terms of history and geography. Even if we are changing history all over the place we want things to line up.
Kaiser Kirk GB+Brittany
Sketch back story:
N. American history is largely as OTL until the French and Indian War (the 7 Years War in Europe). Unlike OTL history, the war in N. America went quite a bit better for the French. The result is the French hold on to all of Quebec, and the lands north of Quebec, formerly held by the British are ceded to the French. In return the British receive claim to all formerly French lands south of the Ohio River and east of the Mississippi River, with the exception of a parcel east of the Mississippi near Baton Rouge. The British fare better in the negotiated peace to the south, acquiring Spanish holdings north of the James River in OTL Florida. Spain continues to hold the Florida peninsula south of that point.
Hmm some issues.
1. Since "Asia" has been narrowed to "East Asia"...so no Persians- No, not willing to move out of Europe.
2. One of the things I found appealing was the idea of new nations in the place of the old. So my intent was a "Celtic" nation- not quite "English". Not necessarily the mother country of a bunch of colonies off in America. Involvement on the continent would drain some of those resources. So I'm not thrilled to have such a major portion of my nations back story dictated.
3. It's really hard to tell what is going to come out of the cloistered one's discussions, but the little bits I've seen so far lead me to think I won't be participating, so GB could go to Jefgte as well. Which would solve #2.
2: My view on those matters in easy; no one should be forced to major changes (or refraining form changes) to their nation only to fit the backstory of other "fantasy" countries.
So if they want the UK in their backstory and the UK does not exist, they simply have to change the backtsory.
3: We are not so many that a more open debate on the rules will not happen when we got more of a complete draft to look at (at try and poke holes in..). Untill then one stakes ones claims and see what happens.
Yes the "Cloistered ones" need some time to get organized given the vacation schedule this is going to take months to get a draft proposal ready. And only then can people poke holes in it.... :'(
As for back stories lets just say thats going to take some haggling and horse trading as well.
Quotethats going to take some haggling and horse trading as well.
"My horse, my horse, a kingdom for my horse!" ;D
Quote from: ctwaterman on June 03, 2011, 07:26:28 AM
As for back stories lets just say thats going to take some haggling and horse trading as well.
I find my tenative point of departure for the persians would have started @600AD, while the celts was @260AD. I will point out that Persia is next door to Turkey...
Ahoj!
1 - Manchuria + Primorskiy Kray (if possible)
2 - New Zealand (that's broadly understood Asia, folks!)
3 - Persia / Phillipines
EDITED TO ADD Maritime Province to Machuria
Borys
Quote from: Borys on June 03, 2011, 01:01:09 PM
Ahoj!
1 - Manchuria
2 - New Zealand (that's broadly understood Asia, folks!)
3 - Persia / Phillipines
Borys
YAY! He is back!
...Oh, that's gonna make for an interesting early game, Borys. I'm up for it, though.
Culturally, do you have in mind a Mongolian/Jurchen, a Slavic, or a 'Sinicized' society?
See, something I've had in mind historically speaking has been the idea that, rather than allying with the Chinese Tang Dynasty in the 7th Century, the kingdom of Silla managed to bring in the state of Yamato by backing one side in a civil war that was going on there. The Japanese, of course, would have made a much less impressive ally than the Chinese, so Goguryeo survives several decades longer than it managed to historically - only finally falling sometime around 700CE - but aren't in a position to make territorial claims to the lion's share of Goguryeo the way the Tang did OTL, thus leaving 'Korea' with a somewhat larger geographical extent than we think of it as having today, with the (differently named) cities on the sites of Shenyang, Changchun, and Vladivostok all being fairly near the border. 'Japan' applied as I hope to, would include Kyushu, Shikoku, Honshu, and the Ryukyus, but exclude Hokkaido. 'Ezochi', comprising Sakhalin, Hokkaido, and the Kurils, would be a culturally and ethnically Ainu but distinctly civilized kingdom - having picked the habit up relatively early from the Japanese and Chinese. All three would be, in theory, close allies contributing funds and personnel to a combined military under the control of a council of their kings...
...Although, in practice, the Shogun would be the 'real' power, with the kings of Ezochi, Japan, and Korea jumping whenever he said frog. Hence 'Sandeii no Bakufu' - 'Shogunate to Three Thrones'.
Ahoj!
Quote from: Valles on June 03, 2011, 03:48:40 PM
Culturally, do you have in mind a Mongolian/Jurchen, a Slavic, or a 'Sinicized' society?
I'm undecided as to the first two, the third is right out.
Borys
Note: I've added threads and stickied them for the three regions/continents that need discussing for buildup. I see no reason for us not to use those for the messy sausage making of borders, etc. and eventually back story in those places. I'm going to cut up the mike's world map in a few minutes to give us more reasonably sized files to manipulate there.
Note: in the regional threads I'm likely missing some folks, and in a case or two we're still working out (behind the scenes) some "disputed" areas. If I missed you or you don't know what's going on specific to you, please ask me.
Oh, and a process note: I'd like players going in each of the three regions to work together on the map, which the proto-mod team would then review as a group in case of tweaks (which should be small, as we're also discussing all this as we go too). Then those groups can work on backstory as well.
*Excellent Smithers Excellent*
Now all we need to is crack the whip more on ourselves to work on the rules while the players squable over bits of land.... It should make the Map makers durring the Versaille treaty process in 1919 seem tame...
Charles
Since this is the whole world thread....
As of now:
Europe:
Great Britain: Guinness
Scandinavia et al: Korpen
Germany: Nobody
Italy: Barcaii
Iberia: jefgte
Austria: Sachmle
N. America:
New England: Darman
CSA thing: Charles
Tex: Tex
Mexico: Foxy
Pacific Northwest: Snip
Quebec: Carthaginian
California is open
Asia:
Japan: Valles
Manchuria: Borys
Siam: P3D
PyscoWard: one of the chinas*
Walter: one of the chinas*
*I've lost track of exactly who might be going to which china.
So California is open, and if we seat that, continental balance isn't bad.
Didn't include me in North America, I have the 'French Canada' nation.
I knew I'd miss someone.
LOL... no problem- happens.
That's not cool, FRANCE is out of the game...
(Nobody, not the Guy, want to have BB Hoche or BB Magenta :D :D :D )
Jef
I think it might be a bit more balanced if we find one more player for Europe, making Europe the world power center.... Maybe something based around Burgendy, Frisia, etc.