I decided to take a swing at a "big gun" ship circa 1880. Im not sure whether to be proud of this or not...
QuoteWillamette, Oregon Barbette Monitor laid down 1880
Barbette ship
Displacement:
8,543 t light; 8,841 t standard; 9,500 t normal; 10,027 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
330.00 ft / 325.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
100.58 m / 99.06 m x 21.34 m x 8.08 m
Armament:
2 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (1x2 guns), 725.00lbs / 328.85kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in open barbette
on centreline forward
2 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (1x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in open barbette
on centreline aft
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 2,450 lbs / 1,111 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 75
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 64.98 ft / 19.81 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: - - 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: - - 11.0" / 279 mm
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,000 ihp / 7,460 Kw = 16.92 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,186 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
480 - 625
Cost:
£0.846 million / $3.384 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 307 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 3,314 tons, 34.9 %
- Belts: 2,118 tons, 22.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 492 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 588 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 116 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 2,066 tons, 21.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,855 tons, 30.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 957 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,458 lbs / 3,383 Kg = 10.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.4 %
Waterplane Area: 15,900 Square feet or 1,477 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 622 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.38
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Wherever I happen to end up, I plan on the first "battleships" being evolution of a line of coast defense Ironclads based on USS Monitor and later USN ships of the same type. This seems suitable for that role, as it is a hideous hybrid that the next design will fix and make into a proper barbette battleship. Thoughts?
Quote from: snip on May 23, 2011, 03:15:47 PM
I decided to take a swing at a "big gun" ship circa 1880. Im not sure whether to be proud of this or not...
Armament:
2 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (1x2 guns), 725.00lbs / 328.85kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in open barbette
on centreline forward
2 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (1x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in open barbette
on centreline aft
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1880 Model
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 64.98 ft / 19.81 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length
Wherever I happen to end up, I plan on the first "battleships" being evolution of a line of coast defense Ironclads based on USS Monitor and later USN ships of the same type. This seems suitable for that role, as it is a hideous hybrid that the next design will fix and make into a proper barbette battleship. Thoughts?
I think you could lose the ends and upper belt armour, both of them are too thin to stop rounds from big guns, main belt could be thicker as well. I also think you should increase the deck to at least 75mm to protect buoyancy.
Tweeked a bit. End belts retained due to concerns about little guns shooting up the ends (this is way before AoN became acceptable). Guns tweeked to bring them into line with the guns that I am thinking about useing (11"-13"-15").
QuoteWillamette, Oregon Barbette Monitor laid down 1880
Barbette ship
Displacement:
8,557 t light; 8,841 t standard; 9,500 t normal; 10,027 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
330.00 ft / 325.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
100.58 m / 99.06 m x 21.34 m x 8.08 m
Armament:
2 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (1x2 guns), 550.00lbs / 249.48kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in open barbette
on centreline forward
2 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (1x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in open barbette
on centreline aft
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 2,100 lbs / 953 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 75
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 211.25 ft / 64.39 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 113.73 ft / 34.66 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: - - 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: - - 11.0" / 279 mm
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.75" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,000 ihp / 7,460 Kw = 16.92 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,186 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
480 - 625
Cost:
£0.811 million / $3.244 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 265 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 3,447 tons, 36.3 %
- Belts: 2,053 tons, 21.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 469 tons, 4.9 %
- Armour Deck: 809 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 116 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 2,066 tons, 21.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,779 tons, 29.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 943 tons, 9.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,718 lbs / 3,501 Kg = 13.6 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.11
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.4 %
Waterplane Area: 15,900 Square feet or 1,477 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 124 lbs/sq ft or 605 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Or, a version with a complete 11" MB that lacks end belts but has thicker armor elsewhere on the hull.
QuoteWillamette, Oregon Barbette Monitor laid down 1880
Barbette ship
Displacement:
8,530 t light; 8,841 t standard; 9,500 t normal; 10,027 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
330.00 ft / 325.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
100.58 m / 99.06 m x 21.34 m x 8.08 m
Armament:
4 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x2 guns), 550.00lbs / 249.48kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in open barbettes
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 2,800 lbs / 1,270 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 75
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 211.25 ft / 64.39 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: - - 11.0" / 279 mm
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 16.00" / 406 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,000 ihp / 7,460 Kw = 16.92 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,186 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
480 - 625
Cost:
£0.883 million / $3.533 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 352 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 3,288 tons, 34.6 %
- Belts: 1,716 tons, 18.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 534 tons, 5.6 %
- Armour Deck: 882 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 155 tons, 1.6 %
Machinery: 2,066 tons, 21.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,825 tons, 29.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 970 tons, 10.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,144 lbs / 3,241 Kg = 12.6 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 13.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.4 %
Waterplane Area: 15,900 Square feet or 1,477 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 615 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
And a protected cruiser for escorting these bad boys
QuoteDuglas Fir Class, Oregon Protected Cruiser laid down 1880
Displacement:
2,888 t light; 3,051 t standard; 3,500 t normal; 3,859 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
331.00 ft / 325.00 ft x 40.00 ft x 17.00 ft (normal load)
100.89 m / 99.06 m x 12.19 m x 5.18 m
Armament:
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 10.00lbs / 4.54kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 842 lbs / 382 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 175
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
4th: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 6,500 ihp / 4,849 Kw = 17.98 kts
Range 3,750nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 808 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
226 - 295
Cost:
£0.366 million / $1.462 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 98 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 385 tons, 11.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 58 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 327 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,303 tons, 37.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,082 tons, 30.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 612 tons, 17.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,515 lbs / 687 Kg = 16.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.62
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 10.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.554
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.13 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.80 ft / 0.24 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Mid (50 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 143.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 67.1 %
Waterplane Area: 8,841 Square feet or 821 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 77 lbs/sq ft or 378 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: snip on May 23, 2011, 03:58:27 PM
Tweeked a bit. End belts retained due to concerns about little guns shooting up the ends (this is way before AoN became acceptable). Guns tweeked to bring them into line with the guns that I am thinking about useing (11"-13"-15").
Actually it is not true that this was before AoN protection become accepted, in fact AoN was pretty much the norm for battleships at this point. Remember that this is before QF guns come into service so lots of small holes is not a major risk.
opps, forgot that little bit of info... :-[
any comments on the designs?
You should be able to lay down ships of a higher quality by that date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Collingwood_(1882)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_class_battleship_(1882)
Both of those classes were laid down before 1880, or during that year.
The 1880 Admirals were the ships I based these off of. What makes them inferior to them aside from the guns (I want 11 inchers)?
Hm, I was looking at the first design, which with only 2 guns is most decisively inferior...although I've seen arguements that a large number of non-QF 6'' guns would be superior in this time period.
What's the purpose of the 8" guns? It won't have appreciably higher rate of fire than the 12" guns.
The second one listed in my second post has a 11" main battery, so its better and will most likely be the ship that I tweek from here out. I have a plan for the evolution of things for once we get started, hence some of my choices here lay the groundwork for those ideas.
Coles/Erickson turrets instead of barbettes:
QuoteWillamette, Oregon Turret Battleship laid down 1880
Displacement:
8,530 t light; 8,841 t standard; 9,500 t normal; 10,027 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
330.00 ft / 325.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
100.58 m / 99.06 m x 21.34 m x 8.08 m
Armament:
4 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x2 guns), 550.00lbs / 249.48kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turrets
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 2,800 lbs / 1,270 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 75
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 211.25 ft / 64.39 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 4.00" / 102 mm -
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,000 ihp / 7,460 Kw = 16.92 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,186 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
480 - 625
Cost:
£0.883 million / $3.533 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 352 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 3,053 tons, 32.1 %
- Belts: 1,526 tons, 16.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 529 tons, 5.6 %
- Armour Deck: 882 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 116 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 2,066 tons, 21.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,059 tons, 32.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 970 tons, 10.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,876 lbs / 3,119 Kg = 12.2 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.4 %
Waterplane Area: 15,900 Square feet or 1,477 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 666 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I must say it is hard to give any real critique on the design, as I really have a very foggy idea about the requirements for this period. Especially what sort of armour level that really is required.
It could perhaps be an idea to include an upper belt to protect the guns in the central redoubt in addition to the turrets. She also seems pretty fast, huge weight saving could be made by dropping the speed a knot or two.
I do think she could use some smaller gun to use against torpedo boats and for mounting in the fighting tops, such as the Hotchkiss 37mm or the Nordenfelt 25mm.
From the designs that I have seen in Conways, thick armor was typical of the period, but it was most likely Harvey or other non-KC types.
Slowed it down to 15 knots and upped the armor a bit more. Also added on the 3.5lb and .25lb guns for use against smaller targets.
QuoteWillamette, Oregon Turret Battleship laid down 1880
Displacement:
8,528 t light; 8,841 t standard; 9,500 t normal; 10,027 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
330.00 ft / 325.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
100.58 m / 99.06 m x 21.34 m x 8.08 m
Armament:
4 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x2 guns), 550.00lbs / 249.48kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turrets
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm guns in single mounts, 3.50lbs / 1.59kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.25lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,830 lbs / 1,284 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 75
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 211.25 ft / 64.39 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm -
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,500 ihp / 4,849 Kw = 15.14 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,186 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
480 - 625
Cost:
£0.785 million / $3.140 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 355 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 3,650 tons, 38.4 %
- Belts: 1,716 tons, 18.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 936 tons, 9.8 %
- Armour Deck: 882 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 116 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,343 tons, 14.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,180 tons, 33.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 972 tons, 10.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,942 lbs / 4,056 Kg = 15.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.47
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.4 %
Waterplane Area: 15,900 Square feet or 1,477 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 692 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: snip on May 24, 2011, 11:30:25 AM
From the designs that I have seen in Conways, thick armor was typical of the period, but it was most likely Harvey or other non-KC types.
At that point compound armour was the best you could get, about 20% better then just steel. So it is most likely what you would want to use. Harvey armour came into use about 1890, with Krupp armour shortly after. Until then it is compound of unhardened steel.
One of the designs that would pre-date the Willamette
QuoteKalamath Class, Oregon Ironclad Costal Monitor laid down 1870
Central citadel ship
Displacement:
1,817 t light; 1,882 t standard; 1,950 t normal; 2,005 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
200.00 ft / 200.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
60.96 m / 60.96 m x 15.24 m x 3.05 m
Armament:
2 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (1x2 guns), 465.00lbs / 210.92kg shells, 1870 Model
Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 930 lbs / 422 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 50
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 8.25 ft / 2.51 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm -
- Armour deck: 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 800 ihp / 597 Kw = 10.30 kts
Range 1,500nm at 6.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 123 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
146 - 190
Cost:
£0.189 million / $0.755 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 116 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 412 tons, 21.1 %
- Belts: 244 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 95 tons, 4.9 %
- Armour Deck: 72 tons, 3.7 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 196 tons, 10.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,093 tons, 56.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 133 tons, 6.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,880 lbs / 853 Kg = 4.0 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 12.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.683
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Mid (50 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Stern: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 71.4 %
Waterplane Area: 7,818 Square feet or 726 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 573 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.13
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
The first Ironclad class aproved by the Oregon goverment. The primary purpace of the class is for costal and harbor duties, and as such the range is not very high. The class is also the proving type for turreted armament within the Oregon Navy. The "monitor style" hull was chosen due to its usefulness with this type of gun mount over ships that carry sailing gear and fears over topweight issues. A slight ram bow is included due to the usefulness of the ram in sinking wooden ships.
That's a lot of freeboard for a monitor. IIRC the original only had 4'.
Better?
QuoteKalamath Class, Oregon Ironclad Costal Monitor laid down 1870
Central citadel ship
Displacement:
1,817 t light; 1,882 t standard; 1,950 t normal; 2,005 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
200.00 ft / 200.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
60.96 m / 60.96 m x 15.24 m x 3.05 m
Armament:
2 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (1x2 guns), 465.00lbs / 210.92kg shells, 1870 Model
Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 930 lbs / 422 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 50
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 5.00" / 127 mm -
- Armour deck: 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 800 ihp / 597 Kw = 10.30 kts
Range 1,500nm at 6.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 123 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
146 - 190
Cost:
£0.189 million / $0.755 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 116 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 475 tons, 24.4 %
- Belts: 296 tons, 15.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 107 tons, 5.5 %
- Armour Deck: 72 tons, 3.7 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 196 tons, 10.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,029 tons, 52.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 133 tons, 6.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,705 lbs / 773 Kg = 3.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.47
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 11.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.93
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.683
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m (5.00 ft / 1.52 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Stern: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Average freeboard: 5.40 ft / 1.65 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 51.0 %
Waterplane Area: 7,818 Square feet or 726 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 557 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.63
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Quote from: snip on May 24, 2011, 02:54:22 PM
Better?
Kalamath Class, Oregon Ironclad Costal Monitor laid down 1870
Central citadel ship
There is no real problem with a bit higher freeboard; I am more concerned with her lack of deck armour. It is quite likely shot from an enemy ship will strike the deck considering how low she is, and just 13mm will not keep out shot from any enemy major vessel. But then neither is the pretty thin armour...
for 50t and a foot of belt height I was able to add an inch to the deck. This better?
QuoteKalamath Class, Oregon Ironclad Costal Monitor laid down 1870
Central citadel ship
Displacement:
1,864 t light; 1,930 t standard; 2,000 t normal; 2,056 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
200.00 ft / 200.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
60.96 m / 60.96 m x 15.24 m x 3.05 m
Armament:
2 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (1x2 guns), 465.00lbs / 210.92kg shells, 1870 Model
Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 930 lbs / 422 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 50
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 800 ihp / 597 Kw = 10.24 kts
Range 1,500nm at 6.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 126 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
149 - 194
Cost:
£0.191 million / $0.762 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 116 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 530 tons, 26.5 %
- Belts: 233 tons, 11.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 76 tons, 3.8 %
- Armour Deck: 221 tons, 11.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 196 tons, 9.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,022 tons, 51.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 136 tons, 6.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,706 lbs / 774 Kg = 3.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 12.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.95
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.700
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m (5.00 ft / 1.52 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Stern: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Average freeboard: 5.40 ft / 1.65 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 50.9 %
Waterplane Area: 7,962 Square feet or 740 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 112 lbs/sq ft or 545 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.62
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
EDIT: fixed a error
Further tinkering with the BBish ship yealds this
QuoteWillamette, Oregon Barbette Battleship laid down 1880
Barbette ship
Displacement:
8,995 t light; 9,318 t standard; 10,000 t normal; 10,546 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
330.00 ft / 325.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
100.58 m / 99.06 m x 21.34 m x 8.08 m
Armament:
4 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x2 guns), 550.00lbs / 249.48kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in open barbettes
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm guns in single mounts, 3.50lbs / 1.59kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.25lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1880 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,830 lbs / 1,284 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 75
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 214.50 ft / 65.38 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: - - 14.0" / 356 mm
3rd: 4.00" / 102 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,000 ihp / 8,206 Kw = 17.15 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,228 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
499 - 650
Cost:
£0.931 million / $3.726 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 355 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 3,375 tons, 33.7 %
- Belts: 1,741 tons, 17.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 607 tons, 6.1 %
- Armour Deck: 907 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 120 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 2,273 tons, 22.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,902 tons, 29.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,005 tons, 10.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 90 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,191 lbs / 3,262 Kg = 12.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.581
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forecastle (19 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.6 %
Waterplane Area: 16,339 Square feet or 1,518 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 618 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.47
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
I don't like the machine guns. Honestly, they're likely just to be breech-loading rifles on a pivot, at this point in time. I'd think about replacing them with more of the 2'' revolving cannon design.
what MGs? Ah you mean the .25lb guns. They are more anti-boarder and boarding craft guns, which I think in combo with the 3.5lb guns should make trying to board an interesting time, should any ship be able to catch this one.
Think you would be better off with the 2''...has more of a chance of preemptively taking out the boats, and with the same ROF...