Please keep the discussion here and not on the other News Page.
Bold move to be sure, the question is it the worlds greatest act of piracy yet or are they going for something more concrete?
Michael
this will be interesting. Can I get an DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNN ;D
No, but you can get a:
KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! BAMBI MUST DIE! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE THRONE OF SKULLS! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHH!
For just $9.99 and shipping and handling. ;D
When does this become public?
Well I was Going to Let Valles issue his Public Decleration to the world in Embassy's and Consulates the World Over....
I have a few things to finish up before I do the first 2 weeks of the war.
1st. It is impossible for the number of ships the Maori used to pass through the central pacific without the huge coal smoke cloud atleast being spotted by a few merchant ships. The problem given the time period many of these merchants are sail powered or coal powered have a top speed of between 6 and 11 knots and completely lack any type of Marconi or Radio transmitter.
So these ships belonging to DKB, Gran Columbia, and the CSA all bound from South East Asia or China throught the Central pacific spotted the smoke plum and nothing out there that big could be anything but somebodies war fleet, they then deverted to either the nearest friendly port or diverted around the smoke cloud noting it direction and speed of travel. The problem is these ships are just now reaching the nearest ports and destinations as they had almost exactly the same distance to travel as the Maori fleet.
So to make it Official if Gran Columbia, DKB, and CSA want to write stories of one of there Merchants reaching port on the 8th or the 9th reporting a Huge Fleet spotted 9 to 10 days ago in the Central Pacific they may do so. But none of the ships closed to the point of actually seing more then maybe some masts and smoke on the Horrizon.
Charles
I'll wait till the 12th. The news should be public about the declaration of war by then.
Totally OOC: Anyone think that all the wars in Navalism will cause global warming to occur faster?
Actually, when I was poking about trying to figure out what type of winter 1920 Poland had, I ran across theories from the time that all the activity during the great war in the North Sea was responsible for the generally mild winters being experienced.
Quote
"Only barbarians fight without music. Lieutenant! Fire up that phonograph, give me some Wagner!"
Why the Wagner? You have the choice of Holst, Bach, Mozart...and you pick Wagner?
Should of gone with "Flight of the Valkaryies" ....intimidation at it's finest :).
It's "Ride of the Valkyries" and its by Wagner... ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz3Cc7wlfkI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz3Cc7wlfkI)
This link should work better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwu2S38lKCQ&feature=fvst
Michael
How did I do that and am still not failing Music Theory AP? :o :o
I'd be much more intimidated by this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0bcRCCg01I
And if you just want to scare the shit out of the Maori with bad music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0
well considering the largest thing he could take into his plane would have been a small Phonograph hand cranked I doubt the Maori no he is even playing music.
He could play the tune with his machine gun. :P
BTW, I think this is the first war that the Swiss aren't responsible for starting in any way that they're involved in....well, besides the Maori "reasons".
Now what side does Borys jump in on?
Quote from: TexanCowboy on March 15, 2011, 06:20:07 PM
BTW, I think this is the first war that the Swiss aren't responsible for starting in any way that they're involved in....well, besides the Maori "reasons".
Obviously I haven't been around quite as long as Tex but I think I agree, this may be a first.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on March 15, 2011, 06:20:07 PM
BTW, I think this is the first war that the Swiss aren't responsible for starting in any way that they're involved in....well, besides the Maori "reasons".
Now what side does Borys jump in on?
Hey if they weren't there, the Maori wouldn't DoW them, obviously the NS's fault.
wow...what a way to start the fireworks
No, no, I'll be fair and admit it:
This time, it was not the Swiss's fault.
Given the widespread and lasting legacy of goodwill, security, and brotherly love that they've left everywhere they go for years now, though, I don't expect that to matter a whole lot.
Something I've already received PMs about, and should explain:
The timing of the operation relative to the Declaration of War is not an attempt at a Pearl Harbor scenario - at least not in full. The entire Maori diplomatic corps - every ambassador and charge de affairs worldwide - will've been primed with their own relevant statements and documents regarding this ahead of time, to be revealed to the world at 6am, Swiss Time (whatever that works out to be where they are) or soonest business hours after that on the 9th. As I've just posted, the military side of things is scheduled to begin at 7am on the 9th - first light after arrival in the very early morning.
It would've been theoretically possible for the Swiss government not to've known about the declaration until after the fighting started, but only if they deliberately kept the resident charge de affairs cooling his heels for a full hour. Those ambassadors in other nations who get called on to explain just what's going on will know this.
It is a fine distinction, and those nations that are not amused by it are well within their rights - but I think it's a significant one that needs to be borne in mind.
Decleration of War on January 8th in the Morning.
First shots fired officially.... will be New Swiss Airstrike on the Maori Fleet still "Technically" in International waters... Say 8 NM off Phoenix [Still Polishing the write up]
So the DOW is a full day Prior to combat operations begining.
I also still have to see how the New Swiss Subs come out of this....
Charles
8nm of Phoenix??? Not earlier? NS considered all the waters enclosed by the islands to be "territorial seas". What really sucks is that now everyone in Phoenix has a front row seat on a massive airstrike... Course if it works, no one will dare attack NS.
As for music, maybe I could blare Justin Beiber songs at the invaders, might be enough to make them commit suicide. ;D That said, the massive Tesla coils I installed should be playing Mission Impossible as we speak...
No, this would make them commit suicide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0
Don't listen unless you're very, very brave...
BAD TEX! (Thwaps with newspaper and sends the Dragon Army to take over GC)
I atone! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWD0vMrCc6Y&feature=player_embedded#at=91)
Quote from: TexanCowboy on March 15, 2011, 11:04:44 PM
I atone! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWD0vMrCc6Y&feature=player_embedded#at=91)
The Gran Columbian Atlantic fleet while conducting a training exercise appears to have blundered into a freak Atlantic Hurricane and washed up on a Sand Bar.... :(
Wow... beyond ambitious.
#1: Merchants ships were smaller in this time period compared to WW2. Say 2,500 to 5,000 ton. Not a comfortable ride in the Pacific.
#2: Merchants were slower as well. Say 8knt average(?). Maybe 5knts... especially if you plan on maintaining any semblance of formation. Also coal burners but that seems to have been covered(smudge and whatnot). It would be difficult to store that much coal in the assembly area.
#3:
QuoteMany Ships, I repeat Thousands of Ships Heading for Home Islands
Thousands of ships? How big is the Maori merchant fleet? Remember that Valles has stated that NO(maybe it was little?) trade occurs during wartime for the Maori(they are self sufficient?). Anyone that trades alot cannot be self sufficient, so the fleet cant be too big. Also 1000 ship fleets did not exist until mid/late WW2.
It is not listed here but I would guess 200,000 to 500,000 max(100 ships @5,000ton each)
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=5258.msg65675#msg65675 (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=5258.msg65675#msg65675)
#4: 100x5,000 ton ship with say 500 men=50,000 men. One Corps wont cut it, even with surprise. Troop loading has already been discussed before I believe. I can get into it further with examples if needed.
#5:
QuoteMany Ships, I repeat Thousands of Ships Heading for Home Islands
I will let those better at math figure out how much real estate 1000 ships would take up(but I would put in a guess at 1000 square miles-try defending that). One raider could cause crazy amounts of damge before the other side of the fleet even knows about it.
#5: 3,000(?) mile journey@ 8knts =15.6 days. Long time if ships are crowded. Several days prep, several days waiting , several days loading(in the soot covered loading area breathing in a virtual coal mine... black lung anyone?). Several days unloading if 'over the beach'. There will not be enough steam/motor launches, it will be rowboats and towed barges(what doesnt sink). 1905 amphibious tech BTW.
#6: Maori signals tech is 'Baseline' (IE before 1900). Good luck getting this out to all embassies and whatnot before hand without leaks. Granted most leak finders would probably not inform the Swiss. ;D But they may have the time too take advantage of it themselves.
#7: As above in regards to radio discipline. This could also apply to an overall lack of security conscious people(trusting?) Everyone in Maoria probably knows whats up.
#8 All this with perfect timing regarding the DOW. Impossible. did anyone mess up the timezones? decoding? sick /drunk/ bribed ambassador(they would have to know over a week ahead of time)?
I hope these types of things have been covered. My opinion is it is reaching ASB territory.
I actually considered this to be a Foxy type mission round up your entire navy and entire merchant marine and send it off some where else to be attritted.
The Problems is ships are measure in GRT so yes I was most likely using a bit of exageration when I said thousands of ships....
However the Maori have 600,000 tons of shipping when I last checked.
So our rules allow them to move long distance 1 man per 4 Tons give or take. As an example foxy moved 1 Division with 100,000 tons of shipping to New Zion.
Quote#2: Merchants were slower as well. Say 8knt average(?). Maybe 5knts... especially if you plan on maintaining any semblance of formation. Also coal burners but that seems to have been covered(smudge and whatnot). It would be difficult to store that much coal in the assembly area.
Yes I figured there speed was roughly 7 to 8 knots for the 3900 or some miles of there voyage. But the ships that spotted them still had to reach a port with a telegraph at the same speed of 7 to 8 knots.
Well... to be quite honest foxy's missions are just as ASB. ;)
ASB=Alien Space Bats, usual terminology for 'impossible' in alternate history fiction.
A decent representative for OTL merchants in capability(not dimensions-I screwed those up- did not know better at the time).
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4407.msg50532#msg50532 (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4407.msg50532#msg50532)
So 5000GRT=500 men over a distance(as roughly guessed before). It would be impossible to gather EVERY vessel in the merchant fleet(some would not be worthy of the trip as well). So we are still looking at 50000 tired sick men if generous(75% effectives?). Some of these guys should be naval personnel to repair the ships that get damaged(using foreign equipment) as no repair/depot ships have been built.
BTW, Real world example for large invasion. It took almost 450,000 tons for the Japanese to invade the Philipines(traveling from a few hundred-from Taiwan- to maybe 1000 miles-from Japan)around a Corps worth of men. My info is not readily available but I can get it by tomorrow.
I am not saying it is impossible to invade the Swiss homelands in principle. But I am saying the Maori could not do it in this timeframe with this tech, preparation, and lack of surprise(well maybe not the Swiss tech is not so hot according to his page)at least not successfully. It will be over a month and a half before they can expect reinforcements(assuming they can get home). Should be a bloody drawn out affair leaving the Swiss with the field but in very poor shape(picture the Phillipine Moro insurrection writ large-ouch!).
It would take all of the Maori offensive power to make this hit. I hope the DKB, NUS, CSA, Rohan, GC and Orange are busy doing other things and dont kick the Maori homeland while down as they have no navy for over month and a half.
I cant speak to whom the DKB, Iberia, Gran Columbia, NUS, and CSA will be kicking they could go anyway they want after all the New Swiss would be very occupied at home.
I Agree ASB is a proper term and I tired to be fair if someone else could do it I wouldnt say no. But from a player perspective I would have said no to Foxy foray into the rift as well. :'( I mean how many of his ships ran out of Gas before the reached port because they had to fight a battle. :o
So I didnt shut it down now I have to figure out how to fight it out trying to be fair to both sides.
Note People please Update your Pages to show where your Army Units are located and at what readiness levels. This is a perpetual complaint. The same is needed for your Navys as Active units are not as good as Wartime readiness. Pearl Harbor happened for a reason.... Lazy days in the sun.
I think I saw a report where the Japanese used something like 28 Ships to move it was pretty much a Corp to Invade Malaya so 28 Ships at roughly 5000 GRT each is
140k GRT but then again the Japanese had lots of pack animals a few armored vehicles and just a bit over 50K men. And the Japanese skimped on supplies....
Quote from: Valles on March 15, 2011, 07:18:02 PM
It is a fine distinction, and those nations that are not amused by it are well within their rights - but I think it's a significant one that needs to be borne in mind.
OOC you are stepping on a plot of my own so there are other factors are work here Valles.
IC Iberia believes that the conduct of the Maori is outside of the bounds of all civilized conduct and is no different that a pirates coastal raid just on a vastly larger scale.
If the Gran Columbian delegate is informally asked, he might state that he tends to agree with his allies; but no formal statement is made.
Quote from: Blooded on March 16, 2011, 01:59:09 AM
Well... to be quite honest foxy's missions are just as ASB. ;)
ASB=Alien Space Bats, usual terminology for 'impossible' in alternate history fiction.
We already have established that we do weird stuff in Navalism but I do agree.
If nothing else pulling the Maori Merchant Marine like this should have vast negative effects.
Michael
If you look back at previous wars, you'll see that I've always pulled in my merchant fleet whenever the commerce raiding started.
That wasn't just a means of preserving my neutrality and merchant fleet - it was in preparation for an operation just like this. The troops being used were kept mobilized throughout the previous six months - indeed, they always have been - and will have had time to drill on boarding and landing operations. The staff work, including awareness of this and other plans among the diplomatic corps, will have been done and polished in secret staff rooms long before that. This is not an improvised assault. It was always going to be New Switzerland, it was always going to involve a unified grand fleet and assembled merchant marine, it was always going to have one half or so of 'fine tuning' before it kicked off...
And it's still a known long shot operation, entered into because the relative economies and building capacities favor the New Swiss and are unlikely to be overcome any other way. But Phoenix is by all indications a primate city, if not within the Swiss Confederation then certainly within the United States of New Switzerland. Taking it - and, since I've gotten luckier than expected and gotten close enough to hinder opposition on the tactical scale, the military basing at Olympia - is reasonably nearly as much of a war-ending stroke for Foxy as losing my transport assets would be for me.
As for other powers hitting now...
...The DKB are a bit of a concern, because of the standing antipathy between them and the Maori and their undoubted ability to project consequences of a Maori victory forward by ten or fifteen years... But who else is going to help the Swiss?
Iberia has correct relations with NS, they are not toxic like NS has with most of the rest of the globe. It would be reasonable to expect from things that Iberia's response is the limit of things; IE the diplomatic hissy fit.
Of course Iberia is ALWAYS worried about the safety of the Philippines and can see the effects of having NS conquered, it would destablize the entire Pacific Rim. If it looks like NS is going down Iberia would have to consider some type of move from either helping the NS or taking a chunk off themselves to create a buffer zone between Philippines and NS Home islands. Is would be open discussions among Iberian news papers.
QuoteI actually considered this to be a Foxy type mission round up your entire navy and entire merchant marine and send it off some where else to be attritted.
To be fair, it wasn't my entire navy and merchant marine, and the ships where supposed to turn around at the first sight of a superior force. There should have been no battle, and no destroyers running out of fuel.
What I do have a problem with is Maoria being completely self sufficient. It seems to small to be so...
The 'island' of Mayan is big enough that it probably flip-flops between 'largest island' and 'smallest continent' depending on who's doing the naming. Eyeballing the map, we're talking about a landmass the size of all of India, or of the US east of the Mississippi. Combine that with an economy that's more the period equivalent of modern-day Brazil than of someplace like Japan, and I think that limited foreign-hull trade for a period of as much as a couple of years would be no more than annoying to the citizenry and economy.
*shrug* Whatever happens, I win on at least one count.
If the invasion works, I win the war.
If the invasion fails but annihilates Phoenix in the bargain, I've crippled New Switzerland and - thanks to the wartime budget - found the cash to at least partly upgrade my military forces, resulting in a net gain for this turn and an overall winnable war.
If the invasion fails completely, costing me my elite corps and much of my fleet, then the Maori ability to project power is completely shattered, never to recover until long after the end of our game...
...and there will accordingly be no further need for me to stay wedded to the plotline and worldview that has been gnawing on my mind since I started playing. I have, several times, turned down opportunities to move to other nations, because I'm constitutionally not capable of leaving the matter of the Maori desire to return Home unfinished.
And after this long banging my head on that one wall, I'm perfectly prepared to accept 'they fail and are broken', since it is an ending.
As for the reports?
Desertfox's irresponsibility and metagaming are not my emergency.
Hello again,
QuoteI think that limited foreign-hull trade for a period of as much as a couple of years would be no more than annoying to the citizenry and economy.
Disagree. Those ships are not military vessels sitting around port. The Merchant Marine is owned by people who make an income off of them. If they make an income they matter to the economy. As I suggested last post many would be used for fishing. Very important diet staple(unless some religious belief abhors fish).
I dont know what the climate of Maoria is like. It is not posted that I can see. If it is like Australia it is not self sufficient.
I would also suggest that a fairly backwards, poor and relatively primitive nation could not be self sufficient in 'modern' supplies. To maintain 'modern' standards, equipment would need to be imported to make up for the lack of local ability.
Quotean economy that's more the period equivalent of modern-day Brazil than of someplace like Japan,
In comparison to other nations of navalism. The Maori have an 80% IC to POP ratio and 20% BP ratio. Ahead of China,mughal and Japan but behind egypt, Ottomans,NUS and others in a spot check. Perhaps like the Army, there is a large 'primitve' population with a well off noble/merchant class.
Not trying to be a pain. ::) I dont want to be the resident PITA. I know its a game. I am just trying to bring out how economy and techs should define a nation just as much as our personal desires.
Hopefully others will chime in here, I have a Ukraine to dismantle. MUAHaHAHA ;)
QuoteAs for the reports?
Desertfox's irresponsibility and metagaming are not my emergency.
Most true... But... :-\
Quote...and there will accordingly be no further need for me to stay wedded to the plotline and worldview that has been gnawing on my mind since I started playing. I have, several times, turned down opportunities to move to other nations, because I'm constitutionally not capable of leaving the matter of the Maori desire to return Home unfinished.
The toughest hurdle I saw for the Maori were the general poor tech level at start(though Tanthalus attempted to immediately compensate for that) and the horrible army quality. Insurmountable if you want a Navy at all, Costs too much to bring it up to speed. Not sure why it was so awful(worst on the planet by far).
BTW... where is the Maori home if not Maoria? ???
QuoteThe Maori have an 80% IC to POP ratio and 20% BP ratio. Ahead of China,mughal and Japan but behind egypt, Ottomans,NUS and others in a spot check
yes, yes, make fun of my industrial base. The Dragon has awakened, and as soon as these pesky
Republican Children are dealt with, well then we shall see just who can stand up to the might of the Middle Kingdom. ;D
Good luck with that ::)
QuoteDisagree. Those ships are not military vessels sitting around port. The Merchant Marine is owned by people who make an income off of them. If they make an income they matter to the economy. As I suggested last post many would be used for fishing. Very important diet staple(unless some religious belief abhors fish).
I dont know what the climate of Maoria is like. It is not posted that I can see. If it is like Australia it is not self sufficient.
I would also suggest that a fairly backwards, poor and relatively primitive nation could not be self sufficient in 'modern' supplies. To maintain 'modern' standards, equipment would need to be imported to make up for the lack of local ability.
I am not saying that ceasing merchant traffic would not affect the economy or the people - I am saying that that effect would not be militarily crippling in the way Desertfox was angling for. Personally, I wouldn't have counted the fishing fleet - and there is a very extensive one - as part of the merchant marine in the first place: merchant, in my mind, implies trade rather than resource acquisition.
Averaging in latitude, exposure to the sea, local ocean currents, and prevailing winds - I'd say the climate is something like the Pacific Northwest - Oregon, Washington, British Columbia. Not necessarily pleasant, but livable, and certainly farmable.
The Maori are world leaders in a couple of key fields and have solid abilities in a number of others; I don't think that there's evidence of a universal and systemic lack of technical ability, so much as there being so much that they
could be doing that they can't because the money simply isn't there. They have a design for a top-flight autoloading magazine rifle - but can't afford to run the factory to produce them long enough to equip their entire army during peacetime, so they train the troops and wait until wartime procurement shakes the funding loose. And so on.
QuoteIn comparison to other nations of navalism. The Maori have an 80% IC to POP ratio and 20% BP ratio. Ahead of China,mughal and Japan but behind egypt, Ottomans,NUS and others in a spot check. Perhaps like the Army, there is a large 'primitve' population with a well off noble/merchant class.
Not trying to be a pain. I dont want to be the resident PITA. I know its a game. I am just trying to bring out how economy and techs should define a nation just as much as our personal desires.
Less nobility/peasantry than urban/rural, I think, but yes, there are large swathes of territory in Maoria where modernization simply hasn't yet penetrated significantly.
QuoteThe toughest hurdle I saw for the Maori were the general poor tech level at start(though Tanthalus attempted to immediately compensate for that) and the horrible army quality. Insurmountable if you want a Navy at all, Costs too much to bring it up to speed. Not sure why it was so awful(worst on the planet by far).
*shrug* It was a tradeoff. My starting arrangement as given by the mods was something like 'baseline point totals, plus four techs'. Since that wasn't enough to manage to be even C-list on both land
and sea, I had to pick one or the other to focus on.
QuoteBTW... where is the Maori home if not Maoria?
'Neue Brandenburg', aka Aotearoa, aka New Zealand - exactly the same place they're from in OTL. Maoria - aka Mayan - was originally settled by a different group of Polynesians who then spread thinly over the land and took in several times their number in refugees when the Prussians were thrown out of Europe and conquered themselves a new homeland.
hmmmm...wonder how this is going to end up? Real gutsy move there Valles. Guess we could maybe talk about moving up the dates on some later CV techs? I think that after this the need for bringing air cover with you will become evident. Maritime strike as well.
QuoteA frantic request was sent to Phoenix and other airfields to forward more torpedoes.
So Phoenix is sending a request to Phoenix? :P
Quote
As the last group flew overhead, Alizandro could have swore he hear someone yell "Where the hell is a Romanian when you need one!"
A couple of comments.
First, I find it unlikely that such a large force would get close to the New Swiss without getting spotted. Between standard patrols, merchants, and a fairly large aerial infrastructure including zeppelins and flying boats, spotting them <200nm out seems a bit unlikely.
Second, I'm having trouble with the rate of hits of the level bombers. Or at least from what it sounds like. 125 level bombers of 1916 vintage with untested crews against an actively defending fleet.
Compare this to the experience of "Force Z". The Experience of Force Z off Malaysia factors into the problems the Bavarians have been having. The small British task force had terrible firecontrol- the HCAS system, which wasn' even working right, and fairly mediocre AA weapons. The Japanese, equipped with bombsights and veteran crews, attacked Prince of Wales and Repulse. The first 25 med bombers dropped 33 bombs for 8 near misses and 1 trivial hit. Compare that to the hit rates of the Ostfriedland experiences, and we're really not looking at high hit rates for level bombers, even at low levels. High level attacks- last I knew the USAAF still didn't have a confirmed hit.
The rate of torpedo success is unknown, but should be less than 40 hits, less detonations when duds are taken into effect.
Compared to the level bombing, the Torpedo attacks on Force Z were more successful. The wave of 16 torpedo bombers critically hit 1, then a subsequent wave landed 3 more which sank Prince of Wales. The unsteerable ship was still missed by all but 1 of the next wave of level bombers- again level bombing really not working well. . Repulse, which had dodged 19 torpedos so far, was attacked by 26 planes and caught 2 torpedoes.
Overall, from 49 torpedo attacks, the Japanese, with "modern" torps, bombers, and veteran highly trained crews against poor AA, hit 6-8 times. Call it 12%. Remember that many of these hits were repeats on ships already lamed- particularly the 3 on PoW. Further, the final strikes against Repulse came from trained crews flying a cross-hatch- something that this adhoc force can't manage. So against maneuvering ships smaller than Battleships the rate would be.... less. Say 6%. Now, the sheer mass of the Maori fleet does mean some misses will hit further on.
Third, finding such a large naval strike force made me curious. After all, torpedo strikes take different training and equipment than level bombing etc. So I tried to look at the New Swiss Records and got more confused as the planes they use as examples in the 1918 OOB aren't torpedo carriers. That's storyline fluff of course, but the lack of information led me to digging. The 1919 report also made me wonder regarding readiness, but lacked enough info to easily check the numbers.
Composition of the New Swiss Airforce
All the planes would seem to be 1916 tech. The last explicit OOB was HY1/1918.
At that time
5 x Type 3 Airships
5 x Type 2 Airships
110 x 1914 Single Engine Aircraft
520 x 1916 Single Engine Aircraft
220 x 1916 Twin Engine Aircraft
70 x 1916 Long Range Aircraft
In HY1/1918 – HY 2/1918 the following was added.
$3.5 for 5 Type 3 Zeppelins
$1 for 500 Single-engined aircraft
$1.2 for 200 multi-engine aircraft
$1.2 for 70 long-range aircraft
$0.2 for 100 single-engined aircraft "for civilian use"
That gives a total by HY1/1919 of
10 x Type 3 Airships
5 x Type 2 Airships
110 x 1914 Single Engine Aircraft
100 x 1916 Single Engine Aircraft 'for civilian use'
1020 x 1916 Single Engine Aircraft
420 x 1916 Twin Engine Aircraft
140 x 1916 Long Range Aircraft
-----
1790 aircraft
all of which costs ~ $16.35
and leads to the HY1/1919 report of :
F. AIR OPERATIONS: $6
Order of Battle: In service (rebuilding)+training
Airships, 15(0)+5
Aircraft, 1690(0)+150
Maintanance: $2
Recruitment: $4
$3.5 for 5 Type 3 Zeppelins
$0.2 for 100 Single-engined aircraft
$0.3 for 50 multi-engine aircraft
From this we presume that the 110 1914 aircraft have been retired.
Maintenance costs would be
Active : $2.04
Wartime : $4.08
So...since that was the last SIM, we have to presume the New Swiss Airforce is on Active status, not Wartime. With the limited warning, the squadrons are at 50% strength. They won't have 425 bombers capable of scrambling and trying to carry torpedoes or modified 8" shells. Of the 560 aircraft reasonably capable of carrying torpedoes, at best only half are available- or 280. One can't figure all those are actually mission capable- call it 15% unavailable – leaving 238. Then account for the fact the New Swiss divide their planes among 3 fields, and thus their ground crews as well. Simply moving to Pheonix for a coordinated strike will knock some further planes out for maintenance.
Of course one could presume that the Sydney airfield is not empty, say 1/3 are there. That leaves 160 planes between the two bases. Even a 100 mile flight to consolidate will claim some- say another 5 %, or 4 planes. So the New Swiss can field 156 plane strike of mixed level and torpedo bombers.
With a 3% hit rate for level bombers (say 4x 8" shells) and a 6% for torpedo bombers that's something around 19 hits from level bombers OR 9 torpedo hits. Up to 18 Torp hits if you use a 12% rate...and then to figure the duds.
Also...why wouldn't the new Swiss send out the fighters to strafe and suppress the AA guns?
regarding Blooded's fleet transportation size note -
That WWII book I had estimated that for a German Division, between 50-70,000 GRT would be needed to transport it, figuring just 2 GRT/man. That was likely for Baltic/Med transits.
A Brief 3 Word Comment of the Air Strike:
FOG OF WAR
As to the state of the New Swiss Airforce in many cases I agree and thats why I am warning people again and again try to keep up to date on your Pages. And readiness leves are not a suggestion nor are unit locations they are Bloody well mandatory in the future. You cant hide Divisions and Fleets any diplomat or merchant captain in port can tell where you keep your 50,000 men and your battle ships docked.
Keeping up to date is important because you never know when someone is going to slip the Knife between the third and fourth cervical vertibrae... :o Im willing to let some time pass for catch up but this is getting to be troublesome.
Should I work with Guinness and try to make a new example of Army Sheets, Navy Sheets and Sim reports.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on March 17, 2011, 12:48:21 AM
The rate of torpedo success is unknown, but should be less than 40 hits, less detonations when duds are taken into effect.
The following to consider.
1) Targets would be MUCH slower as so many were Merchants
2) This was a target rich environment, first shot misses but its very possible there is another ship behind it to kill.
3) All reports lie vs. effect and reality. Take the number given and half it, or third it or perhaps even quarter it to arrive at the true number.
Quote from: ctwaterman on March 17, 2011, 02:20:37 AM
A Brief 3 Word Comment of the Air Strike:
FOG OF WAR
I got a peek behind the curtain, different but reasonable presumptions.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on March 17, 2011, 12:48:21 AM
Also...why wouldn't the new Swiss send out the fighters to strafe and suppress the AA guns?
This, I can answer: because they could reasonably expect it not to work. The Maori enclose their AA mounts in (lightly) armored gunhouses, with (slanted) 2.5cm 'faces' and 1cm 'houses'. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/CrossMirageRev-e.png (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/CrossMirageRev-e.png)
Observe that there are three kinds of mounts visible; the smallest, raised and near the funnels, are the AA guns.
Penetrating their protection would require a fairly square hit on the given plate - not that likely even under ideal circumstances, let alone from a powered kite in the middle of a firefight, especially given that the mounts would be trained to bear on any incoming, placing their toughest angle in the way.
Or it could be because they moved most of the fighters off the nearst airfield to make room for more bombers and pulled maintenance crews off the single engine aircraft and put them on the multi engine aircraft that could carry anti-ship weapons. All this in an attempt to bring their availability numbers of the Torpedo Carrying Aircraft up to reasonable numbers.
And because Flak suppression is an Idea that occured only after someone encountered significant flak for the first time around World War II I think
Charles
I am all for a much closer count on Logistics....... *happy happy dance*
I will support rules changes for the 1922 rules changes to make sure I never have to do Alien Space Bat stuff again. :o Of course I am a firm believer in the three keys to warfare Logistics, Logistics, and Logistics.... yes it is one key but it bares repeating over and over again.
I am for keeping track of things we have only abstractly allowed for in our sim. Such as fleet logistics. Sure your ship can sail 10,000 Nautical Miles at 10 Knots fight a battle and be victorious. But what happens when you have to fight a second battle after you have fired off say 100 out of 150 main caliber gun rounds in your ships and you have expended your Torps and you dont have any realoads? Where is the nearest port [Yours not somebody elses] to resupply you with more then fuel. Where are the spare parts, the Ammo, the Torps going to come from.
The answer is they are following you on a merchant ship of some type @8 Knots. Only a few people have even made an attempt at a fleet train to support long distance operations and they should be rewarded.
I'd support it for 1922. If my current efforts go well, then I'll have the resources to meet the need.
If they don't, I won't be in any position to care.
And I like dealing with logistics. It lets me take advantage of other people being sloppy. ^_^
That some good info.
The NSN was based on fighting at long distances but with bases always nearby (due to NS geography) even the Rift War was based on such an assumption, my objective being a base that had NS style weapons. Course the more I'm here the more a need for a true fleet train becomes apparent. I too would like at least some logistical guidelines.
*evil chuckle* Converts....
The Problem Foxy is your fleet that you sent to the rift was about 2x the size of the Logistical capability of the Bases.
And Example to the opposite was my fleet could not remain concentrated for any period of time because it had to be in a minimum of 3 different harbors. Massawa, Djibouti, and Mogadishu. Between the elements of the French, Italia, and DKB fleets present we needed at least 2 Type 3 Fleet base and 1 Type 2
Charles
A quick comment on the IJA in WW2. They were from an equipement and training point of view a late WW1 army.
The Discussion of pure logistics has been moved here.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=5474.0
*reads latest news*
*looks at date*
*crosses fingers*
well it would make for a quick end to the war
WTF? Deux es machinima Tsunami/Earthquake? Seriously? Not cool.
Well, it's April 1. I'm hoping it's a prank, since I haven't gotten any PMs about shore damage, losses, etc.
If not? *shrug* I can live with it. The only thing I'll really truly miss will be Cross Mirage, and that for sentimental rather than game-related reasons.
Quote from: Valles on April 01, 2011, 12:06:50 PM
Well, it's April 1. I'm hoping it's a prank, since I haven't gotten any PMs about shore damage, losses, etc.
If not? *shrug* I can live with it. The only thing I'll really truly miss will be Cross Mirage, and that for sentimental rather than game-related reasons.
Ahh...bugger...Damn you Charles. Good one though. Forgot what today was.
I thought it was hilarious myself.
Michael
*GOAL*.....
Charles
that would be Charles 1, the rest of us 0.
If you count the Emails I recieved the score is
Charles 3
Rest of You 1
Hey I was the one that made you make it, and pulled of my own so 3+2...
DFox 5
Charles 3
Rest 1
;D
Nope you got one of your own.... but I caught yours unfair advantage since I had just done the same thing myself. So your 1 and 1....
But while others may blame your for encouraging my unsolicited PUNishment you dont get credit... just the blame... ;D
In UNK: "KILL BURN MAIM AS PUNISHMENT"
Hmmmm I think Tex has put the FUN back in
DysFUNctional ?????
You know it. ;)
Am I reading this right? The Swiss blew up a marked hospital ship?
Who me? Clearly the ships stumbled upon one of their own minefields, unfortunately mines can't see, and the Maori should know better than to be sailing near minefields in foreign waters at night.
Let the blame game begin...
Further updates will be up hopefully soon as soon as I finish typing the Debriefs for both sides....
Quote from: Desertfox on May 01, 2011, 11:43:56 PM
So I have the President's son and don't know about it? And how the hell do the Maori have a secure telegraph line to San Fransisco?
1. It would appear so, though something like that, even though are wars are usually not scripted, probably should have been ran past everyone
2. As I understood it, it's the line from Phoenix to SF. According to the story, you tried to cut it and didn't and they fixed it. I have no idea if this is correct.
Not...particularly, no. After he was shot, he was taken in by a military Maori hospital. He was being took to Maori for medical treatment when the mine/whatever hit. Just a bit of random luck. After that, he was sent ashore with the rest of the survivors, and would probably be identified as just a random Gran Columbian...
Yeah but he is in my custody, how would the Maori know that? And if I don't know who he is, how would the captain know?
Plus that line goes through Hawaii which is still in my hands...
I...don't know. I'd figure the Maori would know because they had the patient list...
The Maori should just think he was dead. Missing at sea and all that. And if he had been identified when he was pulled from the water shouldn't the Gran Colombian-flagged ship have kept him on board?
Well, it's a choice between letting him fester on a Gran Columbian ship, with no real medical care, or on shore, where there is medical care.
The Maori field staff would and did have a list of everyone aboard the Gentle Hand; the surviving officers and doctors from her would have taken down a list of survivors who made it aboard the Cartagena, making that data available to the vessels sent to investigate the incident when they met her after the fact, along with where she put them ashore. Likewise, the doctors probably would have kept copies for POW purposes and their own treatment records - unless the authorities on Hera have their heads up it, they probably know, too, though how quickly or well they propogate that knowledge is out of my hands.
From the map I found, I couldn't really tell whether or not the telegraph line surfaced at Hawaii; I figured it was about fifty-fifty odds either way, and went with what made for a more interesting story. The fact that I was wrong doesn't really change anything but the date - whether the news arrives by wire or when the Cartagena or another ship makes port is only a question of whether the important parts of the scene happen in February or March.
The posted scenelet was run past both TexanCowoby and ctwaterman in their roles as involved player and Mod In Charge Of This War.
Texan is also correct about the reasons Private Alizandro was put ashore; his condition isn't particularly terrible, as long as he doesn't catch an infection, but he's not in a state to be out of hospital for another few months, either.
So am I too believe that the cartagene after seeing a ship blow up in her face and suddenly finding its destination is a battleground, decided to still head there? Wouldn't all the Maori on board be taken as POW by the Swiss? Where does she head afterwards? How do the maori in Phoenix even know what is going on? And how do the Maori in Phoenix even communicate with anyone when I control all the lines going out?
The ship is sunk on January 20th, and the Columbians know late January? If he is landed in Hera, I can get the word to GC before the Maori even know what happened.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 02, 2011, 07:59:31 PMSo am I too believe that the cartagene after seeing a ship blow up in her face and suddenly finding its destination is a battleground, decided to still head there?
Don't ask me, I didn't decide that part.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 02, 2011, 07:59:31 PMWouldn't all the Maori on board be taken as POW by the Swiss?
After they were put ashore? Absolutely. Aside from Private Alizandro and any other neutral wounded who were aboard, the survivors of the
Gentle Hand are now Prisoners of War, and out of the war until retrieved or traded.
But copies of their records were left aboard the
Cartagena, which was intercepted at sea after she left Hera.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 02, 2011, 07:59:31 PMWhere does she head afterwards?
Gran Colombia, one presumes, at her best sustained speed.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 02, 2011, 07:59:31 PMHow do the maori in Phoenix even know what is going on?
Because they know via radio from the convoy that the
Gentle Hand was sunk, and dispatched a detachment of light vessels to investigate.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 02, 2011, 07:59:31 PMAnd how do the Maori in Phoenix even communicate with anyone when I control all the lines going out?
The lines go to Phoenix; I control Phoenix and its immediate surroundings. I'd written in the admitted
assumption that that control granted the telegraph lines that ran there. Whether I'm correct or not about that is a GM call. If I'm wrong, then everything goes out by ship or radio, relayed from convoy to convoy, which would indeed be much slower.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 02, 2011, 07:59:31 PMThe ship is sunk on January 20th, and the Columbians know late January? If he is landed in Hera, I can get the word to GC before the Maori even know what happened.
Assuming I actually do control the telegraph lines of Phoenix along with the city, it's perfectly possible to pass the word within a day. If not, then,
as I have already admitted, the Maori line of communication would have taken considerably longer.
In either case, authoring the news seems like a fair indication that the involved Maori authorities reacted more quickly than their Swiss counterparts. Or, in other words, I get my version out first because
I actually wrote about it first.
QuoteIn either case, authoring the news seems like a fair indication that the involved Maori authorities reacted more quickly than their Swiss counterparts. Or, in other words, I get my version out first because I actually wrote about it first.
But I wasn't even TOLD I had the President's son... Kinda hard to write about something you don't even know about.
I would be much more sympathetic - that is to say, at all - if you'd written anything about the sinking of a hospital ship in the couple of weeks we've known about it.
*bonks heads together* Play Nice...
The Link below show the Undersea Cables that anyone knows about if there are other maps with undersea cables I dont know about someone please send them to me....
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2740.msg29552#msg29552
A Large number of Cables all seem to come together in the New Swiss Home Islands one of which is not owned or controlled by the New Swiss. I believe the DKB Embassy in Phoenix quite possibly has its own Undersea cable. :o
Now lets discuss the Problem here.... The Map does not show the Hawaiian Islands at ALL! The New Swiss Cable running from Phoenix to North America does in all likelihood run through Hawaii. But the Cable running from Phoenix to the DKB is not controlled by the New Swiss and has not yet been cut by either side.
There is also a Cable running from the DKB directly to Gran Columbia.
So by the End of the Month of January Private Torres is sitting in a tiny little hospital on the Island of Hera. The Local New Swiss Constibles on the Island are to be blunt outnumbered by the Maori POWs the Gran Columbian Merchant Ship have just delivered to them. And the Gran Columbian Ship has been in contact with Maori Destroyers who were on patrol.
New Switzerland by virtue of controlling the Islands that are relay stations for the Undersea Cables can not retransmit any message they wish using the Cable that runs to North America, to New Swiss New Guinnea and Australia or the Cable running to Japan. On the other hand the Maori control the Hub of those Cables in Phoenix and Olympia. The New Swiss cannot transmit using these cables from the Home Islands.
The Cable controlled and Owned by the DKB Undersea Cable company is under the control of the DKB and is probably open for buisness at Sachlme descretion.
Both the Maori and the New Swiss have very basic code techs so Wireless transmission are in many case cryptic or in the clear and cables are often uncoded.
Charles
The line to North America goes through Hawaii, I made a note of that when the above map was being made. I also have a whole bunch of wireless towers so my communications are still operable. Hera should have more than just a few police and is a couple hours away from several other Swiss islands.
Yes Like I said the Cable goes through Hawaii because it make sense for it to do so... ;)
The Island of Hera is well its small and not all that populated the population is also probably more Polynesisan ethnically then New Swiss European. But yes it is only a few hours from other Islands and help. The POW were all wounded prior to being sunk and the only unwounded Maori in the mix of POW are the Medical Staff and Orderlies.
And yes you have a string of Wireless towers I want to see a listing of those towers in your Encylopedia Soon....!!!!! Heck I want to see a listing of such locations in everyones Encylopedias soon.... >:( Hmmm checks to see if I have updtated the UNK Encylopedia to include such info....
So the word of things went through the Deutsche Kaiserreich Brandenburg? The one nation in the world with the most reason to go 'a pox and a long war on both your houses'?
Heeeeee. That's hilarious. I approve! ^_^
And whatever the guard force might be like, the Gentle Hand was carrying badly wounded men, neutrals like Jose Alizandro, and noncombatants. The Incredibly Unlucky Adventures of Private Jose are out of my hands, at least for now.
I have not built any long-range broadcast or relay radio towers. Any distant communications would be happening via sets aboard airships, civilian merchants that happen to've sprung for them, or warships, and then only by catch-as-catch-can relays.
Private Jose Alizandro: A real man-president for a real nation.
The precise extent and history of Maori ambitions, and the reasoning leading to them, are not secret, and it's my intent that they be considered 'common knowledge' - in one degree or another of formality, and in however many more or less politic phrasings appropriate to the speaker, it's consistent across all levels of the Maori government: What they tell outsiders, what they tell each other, what they tell their people. The only 'fakery' involved is meta-historical - OTL' Polynesian culture never carried out the kind of broad internal and external trade I've described in their Navalism equivalents, even though it had the technical ability to do so.