www.navalism.org

Here is a design for a destroyer/minelayer I came up with.  I have a couple points I'm looking at with this design, but I'm not so sure about my talents understanding SpringSharp, just using it (barely). 

* is making a destroyer that can lay mines a bad idea? 
* is 4,000nm a decent range for a destroyer?  And how do I edit it to conform with Navalism rules on range?  (if at all)

Tut, Egypt Destroyer/Minelayer laid down 1919 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   653 t light; 672 t standard; 750 t normal; 812 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   235.00 ft / 235.00 ft x 24.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   71.63 m / 71.63 m x 7.32 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.72kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 44 lbs / 20 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,837 ihp / 9,576 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 141 tons
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   71 - 93

Cost:
   £0.205 million / $0.822 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 476 tons, 63.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 165 tons, 22.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 97 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     149 lbs / 68 Kg = 6.9 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.70
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 8.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.465
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.79 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.33 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.86 ft / 5.14 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Stern:      10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.22 ft / 3.42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 211.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,644 Square feet or 339 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 19 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 102 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.47
      - Longitudinal: 2.23
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

6t = 6 18in torpedoes
10t = 10 sea mines
short range radio

Eh.....

First, I'm not sure why you're sticking with the Reciprocating engines. Turbines will give you much more power for less weight.

Also, you should be able to use 1912 engines by this point. That will also free up a lot of weight.

Onto the design itself. First, I'm not sure why all the guns would be raised off of the freeboard? The 3.5'' guns, at least, should most likely be on deck level.

BIG one here. Cross-sectional must be at or above .5. Currently, it is at .47.

The range is fine, for a fleet like Eygpt that is based in the Med. Therea are no rules on range.

Also, we pay for weight in light tons, not normal. So you still have room to expand the design.

I'm not sure where the weight for mines is coming from, since there are only 6 tons of misc. weight, but the concept of mines on a destroyer is not a bad one. Generally, in Destroyer-Minelayers, I try to put at least 20 mines on the destroyer, to allow for patterns to be laid.

All and all, not a bad start.

Quote from: TexanCowboy on July 27, 2010, 04:42:20 PM
Eh.....
First, I'm not sure why you're sticking with the Reciprocating engines. Turbines will give you much more power for less weight. 

I wasn't sure which one I should be going with.  I was trying to run off Egypt's naval technology levels. 

QuoteAlso, you should be able to use 1912 engines by this point. That will also free up a lot of weight.

Egypt only has 1905 propulsion tech. 

QuoteOnto the design itself. First, I'm not sure why all the guns would be raised off of the freeboard? The 3.5'' guns, at least, should most likely be on deck level.

I'll amend that.  I wasn't quite sure what that part meant...

QuoteBIG one here. Cross-sectional must be at or above .5. Currently, it is at .47.

I'm definitely going to fix that.  I'll need to find that stat and tinker a bit. 

QuoteAlso, we pay for weight in light tons, not normal. So you still have room to expand the design.

How would I translate normal tons into light tons?  I knew it was figured in light tons but I didn't know how to convert from one to the other. 

QuoteI'm not sure where the weight for mines is coming from, since there are only 6 tons of misc. weight, but the concept of mines on a destroyer is not a bad one. Generally, in Destroyer-Minelayers, I try to put at least 20 mines on the destroyer, to allow for patterns to be laid.

I made a mistake there... I had originally included 10 miscellaneous tons for a short range radio and I guess I messed up and forgot to add the 10t back on for the mines (originally there were going to be no mines). 

Tut, Egypt Destroyer/Minelayer laid down 1919 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   723 t light; 744 t standard; 875 t normal; 980 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   230.00 ft / 230.00 ft x 24.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
   70.10 m / 70.10 m x 7.32 m  x 2.74 m

Armament:
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.73kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     2 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in any sea
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 45 lbs / 20 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,771 shp / 11,765 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 235 tons

Complement:
   79 - 104

Cost:
   £0.221 million / $0.884 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 509 tons, 58.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 182 tons, 20.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 152 tons, 17.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 26 tons, 3.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     202 lbs / 92 Kg = 9.4 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.52
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 9.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.80

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.616
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.58 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 73 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.86 ft / 5.14 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Stern:      10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.22 ft / 3.42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 195.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,100 Square feet or 381 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 36 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 109 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 2.06
      - Overall: 0.59
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

6t = 6 18in torpedoes
20t = 20 sea mines
short range radio

Quote from: Darman on July 27, 2010, 05:27:48 PM

Quote from: TexanCowboy on July 27, 2010, 04:42:20 PM
Eh.....
First, I'm not sure why you're sticking with the Reciprocating engines. Turbines will give you much more power for less weight.  

I wasn't sure which one I should be going with.  I was trying to run off Egypt's naval technology levels.  

Eh, turbines are a lot better in that regard. A lot better.

Quote

QuoteAlso, you should be able to use 1912 engines by this point. That will also free up a lot of weight.

Egypt only has 1905 propulsion tech.  

Eh, 1909 propulsion was donated to you at the beginning of 1917. Did you integrate it? Also, 1905 technology means you can use 1909 engines. 1902 technology means you can use 1905 engines.

Quote

QuoteAlso, we pay for weight in light tons, not normal. So you still have room to expand the design.

How would I translate normal tons into light tons?  I knew it was figured in light tons but I didn't know how to convert from one to the other.  

Eh, light tons is normal tons minus food, ammunition, and fuel. To increase light tons, you can increase the general size of the ship, LWD and BC.

On the new ship. For the guns, I wouldn't put anything in the superfiring or belowdecks portions on the guns tab, leaving both at 0. Right now, the guns are within the ship, like a casement mount on a dreadnought.

For the big machine guns, do you intend to have one of the twin mounts firing over the other forward? In that case, I would move it aft, as to help with bow heaviness.

It seems this ship is underpreforming compared to many of the size because of the want to fit it into a Type 0 drydock. A BC of .616 is very high. Try lowering that to .45 and increasing the length and beam of the ship.

Otherwise, it looks pretty good. :)

Ah so im not the only one trying to cram a DDish thing into a type 0  :)
Here is a design im working on, maybe it might work well for what you have in mind.

QuoteGarrison Ahern Class, Irish Frigate laid down 1920 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   450 t light; 476 t standard; 544 t normal; 598 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229.09 ft / 225.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   69.83 m / 68.58 m x 6.10 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount aft
      6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (3x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 131 lbs / 59 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   3 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 7,408 shp / 5,526 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 3,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 122 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   56 - 73

Cost:
   £0.143 million / $0.572 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 3.0 %
   Armour: 10 tons, 1.8 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 1.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 221 tons, 40.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 153 tons, 28.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 94 tons, 17.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 9.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     158 lbs / 72 Kg = 4.9 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.55

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.423
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.25 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (30 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.54 ft / 3.21 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 165.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 53.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,812 Square feet or 261 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 104 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 3.31
      - Overall: 0.60
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

25 tons long range wireless
10 tons for mines (or depth charges once I have the tech)
12 tons 21inch torpedos (1 set reloads)
3 tons construction reserve and expantion room
Trial speed: 27 knts

Quote from: TexanCowboy on July 27, 2010, 05:46:15 PM
Eh, 1909 propulsion was donated to you at the beginning of 1917. Did you integrate it? Also, 1905 technology means you can use 1909 engines. 1902 technology means you can use 1905 engines.

It has not been integrated yet, and actually Egypt doesn't even have 1905 level tech, only 1902.  We're working on researching 1905 tech.  So I'm stuck with 1905 historical engines. 

QuoteOn the new ship. For the guns, I wouldn't put anything in the superfiring or belowdecks portions on the guns tab, leaving both at 0. Right now, the guns are within the ship, like a casement mount on a dreadnought.

For the big machine guns, do you intend to have one of the twin mounts firing over the other forward? In that case, I would move it aft, as to help with bow heaviness.

I put them all at zero.  I also tried to move one of the heavies aft.  I also made them dual mounts instead of single mounts.  I figured I'd try and boost its anti-torpedo boat defenses a bit.  Not that those guns will do anything except kill some personnel. 

QuoteIt seems this ship is underpreforming compared to many of the size because of the want to fit it into a Type 0 drydock. A BC of .616 is very high. Try lowering that to .45 and increasing the length and beam of the ship.

I lowered the BC to .485.  Increased the length by about 20 feet. 
I'm not trying to get it to fit into a Type 0 DD I'm just trying to keep it within Egypt's DD tech levels. 

Put the guns in deck mounts rather than in casemates...
A casemate will severely limit their usefulness.

The deck mount will let them be more easily trained.

A delegation of French technological experts is under way. We can't have our Egyptian vaza euh, friends become so obsolete they still have to use galleys.

Of course they can't use galleys! Far too obsolete!

They need to be using Viking longships instead!

(http://www.viking-shield.com/G1026.jpg)

*runs away*

Nice one, try to sell that to the United Norman Kingdom. Looks like the Ideal Envoy Vessel for them.

I think the hunt of Romanian Earthboomer is open. >:( ;D

Papyrus war rafts ! The best of the best warships in Red Sea ( with French and New Swiss scraps ).

*runs away too*

I suggest... A LOG! Prefect for ramming!

*runs away and hides*

On a not funny note. She does look good. Im more of a fan of a larger number of guns. My only gripe would be with that. 3.5" isnt going to do much against some of the DDs ive seen, do you have a bigger DD gun?

You need a more prestigious vessel for someone like Black Adder!

(http://www.thetipsyworld.com/blackadder1st.jpg)

I suggest La Real, Spanish flagship at the battle of Leptano.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/red_admiral/Lepanto1934.gif)

No, no, not that Leptano!!!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Museo_Mar%C3%ADtim_de_Barcelona_Real_17-05-2009_13-09-59.JPG)

*Runs VERY far away*  ;D

Quote from: snip on August 01, 2010, 02:15:12 PM
On a not funny note. She does look good. Im more of a fan of a larger number of guns. My only gripe would be with that. 3.5" isnt going to do much against some of the DDs ive seen, do you have a bigger DD gun?

I may have a bigger gun.  I'm not sure what types of guns and mounts Egypt has and is allowed to use because there is no list.  We did receive one such design that's usable though.  I'll have to check and see how it'll work. 

The French 140mm/L50 QF gun in a single mount fits.  That is roughly a 5.5inch QF gun.  Fires a heavier 42kg shell.  Had to reduce top speed by 1 knot to fit the extra magazine space. 

Tut, Egypt Destroyer/Minelayer laid down 1919 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   736 t light; 770 t standard; 875 t normal; 959 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   262.94 ft / 260.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
   80.14 m / 79.25 m x 8.23 m  x 2.74 m

Armament:
      2 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92.59lbs / 42.00kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 187 lbs / 85 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Hydraulic drive, 2 shafts, 15,839 shp / 11,816 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 190 tons

Complement:
   79 - 104

Cost:
   £0.245 million / $0.980 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 21 tons, 2.4 %
   Machinery: 491 tons, 56.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 208 tons, 23.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 139 tons, 15.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     195 lbs / 89 Kg = 2.3 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.59
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 9.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.90

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.485
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.12 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.68 ft / 5.08 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.62 ft / 3.24 m
      - Mid (0 %):      10.62 ft / 3.24 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.62 ft / 3.24 m
      - Stern:      10.62 ft / 3.24 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.10 ft / 3.38 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 201.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,613 Square feet or 429 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 34 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 119 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.49
      - Longitudinal: 1.54
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

6t = 6 18in torpedoes
10t = 10 sea mines
short range radio

Ah!!!!

5.5'' guns are not what you want to be putting on that hull. You would barely be able to hit anything from such a small platform, with all the hull motion. Of course, that's just my general, biased opinion....

Cross-Sectional is low.

Honestly, if you have only 1905 engines, don't worry about it. Just wait until you get better engines, IMHO, because the ones you have right now are not very good for destroyers.

Completely in agreement with Tex on this one, 5.5's are way to big for that hull. Maybe a solution would be to increase the number of 3.5's if you looking to upgun that design a bit.

Too big?  I was looking for something to kill another destroyer or to do some damage to the light guns and outworks on a larger ship as the destroyer drives home its torpedo attack.  And while its turning away from the attack (both guns trained on target) and while retreating.  

Well if your looking for something that can use torps effectively, you need more than a single duel or two single tubes. We had quite the discussion on this in dealing with one of the ships Im working on currently (one of the SS reports is posted earlier, its one revision out of date) Can you use triple launchers? With the guns, something can be said for being able to put more shells on target then just a few larger ones. Like I said, a greater number of the 3.5's could work. I only have 4" guns for my DD(ish) ships so Im sort of in the same boat.

If you want to go any bigger, I'd go with the 4'' guns you have on your newest, 1,000 ton destroyers.

@Tex it looks like all the DD's he has right now are all foreign builds. I think those 4 inch guns are confederate, not domestic Egyptian guns.

@Mods and ciders: Do you guys have a list of the Egyptian naval guns, the list in there forum is only one gun.

The French engineers at the port of Alexandria have , by accident, some plans for the most modern DD's available.

QuoteAli, Egytian Destroyer laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 799 t standard; 901 t normal; 983 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   331,36 ft / 328,08 ft x 26,25 ft x 7,87 ft (normal load)
   101,00 m / 100,00 m x 8,00 m  x 2,40 m

Armament:
     4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 371 lbs / 168 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18.017 shp / 13.441 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 184 tons

Complement:
   81 - 106

Cost:
   £0,276 million / $1,103 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 42 tons, 4,7%
   Armour: 6 tons, 0,7%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0,7%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 394 tons, 43,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 267 tons, 29,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 151 tons, 16,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 4,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     232 lbs / 105 Kg = 2,8 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24
   Metacentric height 1,0 ft / 0,3 m
   Roll period: 11,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,74
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,465
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18,11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   12,14 ft / 3,70 m
      - Mid (50%):      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   10,73 ft / 3,27 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 70,5%
   Waterplane Area: 5.563 Square feet or 517 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 52%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 129 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,01
      - Overall: 0,54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

"What's that, a wave?"
"Oh, not again."
*Snap*
*Ghug-ghug-ghug-ghug*

LB of 12.5:1 is just a tad bit over the top.

That is a much bigger hull then what Darman has right now. I think ether the size needs to go up or the ships purpose needs to be looked at again.

I shouldn't have taken the too slender Tigre b's as template. (anyone a reason why I lost 7 at Djibouti, and not leopards?)

QuoteAli, Egyptian Destroyer laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 799 t standard; 900 t normal; 981 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   331,36 ft / 328,08 ft x 27,89 ft x 8,53 ft (normal load)
   101,00 m / 100,00 m x 8,50 m  x 2,60 m

Armament:
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 371 lbs / 168 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17.504 shp / 13.058 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 183 tons

Complement:
   81 - 106

Cost:
   £0,274 million / $1,097 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 42 tons, 4,7%
   Armour: 6 tons, 0,7%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0,7%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 390 tons, 43,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 272 tons, 30,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 150 tons, 16,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 4,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     239 lbs / 108 Kg = 2,9 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,28
   Metacentric height 1,1 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,404
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18,11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   12,14 ft / 3,70 m
      - Mid (50%):      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   10,73 ft / 3,27 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75,5%
   Waterplane Area: 5.644 Square feet or 524 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 134 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,01
      - Overall: 0,53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

IMHO even 4x4" were a bit over the top, but 4x140mm on a 750t destroyer is just too much. I won't put 140mm guns on a destroyer smaller than 1000t - my  Firanji DD design is 3x140mm on 1000t.

She's slow, ain't she...

Quote from: maddox on August 02, 2010, 01:19:50 PM
She's slow, ain't she...

Speed is decisive for a destroyer aint it? 

Well for launching torps its sort of nice to get there quick, and out if your still moving. The DDish thing im working on (I'm calling it a frigate) isnt super fast (27 knts) but I also dont have oil-firing boilers. It all depends on what you want the ship to do and the constraints you have to work with. In my case, the frigates most likely will not be the primary torpedo boats (working on something else for that) so top speed is not as great an issue but they they carry torps so the option is there. Its all in what you want a design to do.

At least you have the 10% oil sprayed for a 'burst' speed.

It doesnt help much against pure oil-fired ships.

Better than nothing though. 

Oh, and here is the latest (joint) design with the help of the Romanian Naval R&D team:

QuoteEygptian Paudling, Egypt/Romania Destroyer laid down 1919 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   749 t light; 783 t standard; 866 t normal; 933 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   280.00 ft / 280.00 ft x 26.20 ft x 9.75 ft (normal load)
   85.34 m / 85.34 m x 7.99 m  x 2.97 m

Armament:
      4 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount aft
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 120 lbs / 54 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 225
   6 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,606 shp / 17,610 Kw = 31.50 kts
   Range 2,520nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 150 tons

Complement:
   79 - 103

Cost:
   £0.230 million / $0.919 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 1.9 %
   Machinery: 468 tons, 54.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 259 tons, 29.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 117 tons, 13.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     214 lbs / 97 Kg = 10.0 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.424
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.69 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.73 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (19 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.39 ft / 3.78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 189.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,587 Square feet or 426 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 43 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 128 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 2.42
      - Overall: 0.58
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

6 tons-torpedos

guess I could still be using oars... ;D

Using stolen Viking longboats?   ::)

Nah, I would have to go for Triremes  ;D

Lol, nice choice.  I approve.  Although will they be Athenian, Spartan, Corinthian, or Persian Triremes? 

Athenian most likely

You last DD suffers from NEDS syndrome, I think.
Sorry Borys, I beat ya to it.

Quote from: Sachmle on August 03, 2010, 07:46:24 AM
You last DD suffers from NEDS syndrome, I think.
Sorry Borys, I beat ya to it.

NEDS?

NOT ENOUGH DECK SPACE

IE you are cramming too many guns and torpedo's onto the deck.

Michael

Gotcha... how would I tell if there is enough deck space? 

Best way would be to draw it. But if you don't want to, you could measure the thing length wise.

For example...

The 88mm  gun is just a tad over 13' long.

Give 5 feet of working space behind each gun and you have four of them so...

2x (13' + 5') + 2x (6' + 5') [Superfiring] = 58' for the guns themselves (not counting the space for the rounds etc.)

Each TT is ~24' long give 5' working space. Assuming you are using Triple TTs, 63' for the TTs.

Total for Guns and TTs is 121'.

You ship's length starts after forecastle and ends before quarterdeck so... 280' x 66% = 184.8'.

So you have 184.8' - 121' = 63.8' for the Superstructure and wing guns.

NEDS

So how long is the superstructure usually?  13' for the wing turrets (roughly)

Use this (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4415.0) as a sight example. It's 17' shorter, but has half as many guns and is oil fired. You're trying to fit 2x as many guns, plus another triple TT launcher. The TT launcher alone is longer (24') than the amount of extra length you have (17').

If we dropped it down to 3-4 3.5" guns might that be a little better? 

3 guns: 2 forward with one superfiring, one gun aft
4 guns: 1 forward, 1 aft, 2 wing. 

I'd say 3, aXy with the TT centerline between the stacks and X mount.

Eh....I could buy five, with the superfiring....the goal was to make a modification of the Paudling.

THIS should be the final product...

DD by Committee, Egyptian/Romanian Destroyer laid down 1919 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   749 t light; 777 t standard; 860 t normal; 926 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   293.09 ft / 290.00 ft x 26.00 ft x 9.50 ft (normal load)
   89.33 m / 88.39 m x 7.92 m  x 2.90 m

Armament:
      4 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.73kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 90 lbs / 41 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 215
   6 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 22,759 shp / 16,978 Kw = 31.50 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 149 tons

Complement:
   79 - 103

Cost:
   £0.221 million / $0.883 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 11 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 468 tons, 54.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 263 tons, 30.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 111 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     240 lbs / 109 Kg = 11.2 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.44
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 9.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.420
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.15 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.03 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.50 ft / 5.33 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.30 ft / 3.44 m
      - Stern:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.35 ft / 3.76 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,701 Square feet or 437 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 126 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 2.26
      - Overall: 0.58
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

6 tons- torpedoes

My first attempt at a minelayer.  And is there anything I need to add to make it a minsweeper as well as a minelayer? 

Desperado, Egypt Minelayer laid down 1921 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   933 t light; 958 t standard; 1,013 t normal; 1,056 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
   91.44 m / 91.44 m x 7.62 m  x 2.74 m

Armament:
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 58 lbs / 26 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18,312 shp / 13,661 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 97 tons

Complement:
   89 - 116

Cost:
   £0.269 million / $1.077 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 479 tons, 47.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 247 tons, 24.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 80 tons, 7.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 19.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     247 lbs / 112 Kg = 18.3 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.05 ft / 5.81 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   12.12 ft / 3.69 m
      - Mid (50 %):      12.12 ft / 3.69 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.12 ft / 3.69 m
      - Stern:      12.12 ft / 3.69 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.67 ft / 3.86 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,113 Square feet or 475 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 59 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 107 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.47
      - Longitudinal: 1.83
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

200t = 200 mines

You'd want to allocate 25 or 50 t for sweeping stuff. 

Note that this vessel needs to have its cross-sectional hull strength at least 0.50...

I can fix that.  Thought it was more than that (maybe before I made a last second change in something?).  I'm definitely adding sweeping capabilities, I need to be able to clear minefields as well after all. 

Desperado, Egypt Minelayer laid down 1921 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   933 t light; 958 t standard; 1,013 t normal; 1,056 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
   91.44 m / 91.44 m x 7.62 m  x 2.74 m

Armament:
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 58 lbs / 26 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18,312 shp / 13,661 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 97 tons

Complement:
   89 - 116

Cost:
   £0.273 million / $1.093 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 490 tons, 48.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 285 tons, 28.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 80 tons, 7.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 14.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     295 lbs / 134 Kg = 21.9 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.15
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.05 ft / 5.81 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   12.12 ft / 3.69 m
      - Mid (50 %):      12.12 ft / 3.69 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.12 ft / 3.69 m
      - Stern:      12.12 ft / 3.69 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.67 ft / 3.86 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,113 Square feet or 475 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 61 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 124 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.55
      - Longitudinal: 2.12
      - Overall: 0.62
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

100t = 100 mines and minelaying gear
50t= minesweeping gear

You have 1,000 ton destroyer tech?

No, its not built to DD/TB standards (I don't think).  I actually was looking at a Royal Navy minelayer (the class begins with an A) from WW2 that displaced something around 2,500 tons.  So that is how I started then it ended up getting smaller. 

If it's got a overall strength of under 1.00, it is considered to be built to destroyer standards, for the purposes of this sim.

Alright then.  I can try and fix that. 
I found the minelayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdiel_class_minelayer) I was trying to design this after... I sorta just took the dimensions and ran with them and ended up altering them to make the ships a bit smaller. 

I redid the design a bit. 

Abigail, Egypt Mine Warfare Vessel laid down 1921 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   2,681 t light; 2,768 t standard; 3,500 t normal; 4,086 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   422.06 ft / 418.00 ft x 40.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
   128.64 m / 127.41 m x 12.19 m  x 3.66 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1921 Model
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 183 lbs / 83 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   271.70 ft / 82.81 m   7.59 ft / 2.31 m
   Ends:   1.00" / 25 mm   146.28 ft / 44.59 m   7.59 ft / 2.31 m
   Upper:   1.00" / 25 mm   271.70 ft / 82.81 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   271.70 ft / 82.81 m   11.37 ft / 3.47 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

Machinery:
   No fuel, Internal combustion motors,
   No drive to shaft, 2 shafts, 41,620 shp / 31,049 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 30.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,318 tons

Complement:
   226 - 295

Cost:
   £0.288 million / $1.150 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 23 tons, 0.7 %
   Armour: 634 tons, 18.1 %
      - Belts: 389 tons, 11.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 229 tons, 6.5 %
      - Armament: 16 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,624 tons, 46.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 819 tons, 23.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 11.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     23,219 lbs / 10,532 Kg = 725.6 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 10.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 13.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.611
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      14.31 ft / 4.36 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.31 ft / 4.36 m
      - Stern:      14.31 ft / 4.36 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.39 ft / 5.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 38.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,350 Square feet or 1,147 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 288 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 76 lbs/sq ft or 371 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.22
      - Longitudinal: 2.25
      - Overall: 1.29
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

150t= 150 mines
50t= minesweeping gear
200t= 100 passenger/cargo compartment

Might want to check the machinery...

QuoteMachinery:
   No fuel, Internal combustion motors,
   No drive to shaft, 2 shafts, 41,620 shp / 31,049 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 30.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,318 tons

Also, DP guns have yet to make an appearance. Other than that, why are the 3 inch guns even there if you have a main battery of 4 inch.

For a ship with 4" main guns, having a 3" gun is a moot point.
Even after DP guns show up, you should just mount one or the other.

Replace the 3" guns with a pair of twin torp mounts and some 30-40mm AAA.

Quote from: snip on September 04, 2010, 12:05:49 PM
Might want to check the machinery...

QuoteMachinery:
   No fuel, Internal combustion motors,
   No drive to shaft, 2 shafts, 41,620 shp / 31,049 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 30.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,318 tons

Also, DP guns have yet to make an appearance. Other than that, why are the 3 inch guns even there if you have a main battery of 4 inch.

I'll fix the 3"/DP although the lack of fuel confuses me a bit... I thought that engine type and range had been the first things I'd implemented. 

no drive to shaft ether. I dont get the no fuel thing to.

I should have fixed it all.  She is intended to be a fast minelayer/minesweeper. 

Abigail, Egypt Mine Warfare Vessel laid down 1921 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   2,827 t light; 2,910 t standard; 3,503 t normal; 3,977 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   422.06 ft / 418.00 ft x 40.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
   128.64 m / 127.41 m x 12.19 m  x 3.66 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 144 lbs / 65 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 0.0" / 0 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -

   - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 31,261 shp / 23,321 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 28.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,067 tons

Complement:
   226 - 295

Cost:
   £0.735 million / $2.938 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 18 tons, 0.5 %
   Armour: 13 tons, 0.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 0.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 1,246 tons, 35.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,245 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 676 tons, 19.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 304 tons, 8.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,947 lbs / 1,337 Kg = 92.1 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
   Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 11.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.07
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.611
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      14.31 ft / 4.36 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.31 ft / 4.36 m
      - Stern:      14.31 ft / 4.36 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.39 ft / 5.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 128.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,355 Square feet or 1,148 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 58 lbs/sq ft or 284 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.78
      - Overall: 1.02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

150t= 150 mines
50t= minesweeping gear
100t= 50 passenger/cargo compartment
4t= 18in torpedoes

Quote from: Darman on September 04, 2010, 10:47:31 PM

   2 - 0.0" / 0 mm above water torpedoes

Think you missed something...

Quote from: eltf177 on September 05, 2010, 05:59:28 AM

Quote from: Darman on September 04, 2010, 10:47:31 PM

   2 - 0.0" / 0 mm above water torpedoes

Think you missed something...

That did look odd but my roommate was breathing down my neck waiting for me to finish it so we could head out. 

Abigail, Egypt Mine Warfare Vessel laid down 1921 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   2,827 t light; 2,910 t standard; 3,503 t normal; 3,977 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   422.06 ft / 418.00 ft x 40.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
   128.64 m / 127.41 m x 12.19 m  x 3.66 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 144 lbs / 65 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -

   - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 31,261 shp / 23,321 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 28.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,067 tons

Complement:
   226 - 295

Cost:
   £0.735 million / $2.938 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 18 tons, 0.5 %
   Armour: 13 tons, 0.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 0.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 1,246 tons, 35.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,245 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 676 tons, 19.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 304 tons, 8.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,947 lbs / 1,337 Kg = 92.1 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
   Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 11.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.07
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.611
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      14.31 ft / 4.36 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.31 ft / 4.36 m
      - Stern:      14.31 ft / 4.36 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.39 ft / 5.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 128.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,355 Square feet or 1,148 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 58 lbs/sq ft or 284 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.78
      - Overall: 1.02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

150t= 150 mines
50t= minesweeping gear
100t= 50 passenger/cargo compartment
4t= 18in torpedoes

My attempt at a cruiser design.  It should be within Egypt's capabilities to produce domestically (except the 12in main guns). 

Quote
Al Hassan, Egypt Cruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   7,893 t light; 8,551 t standard; 8,837 t normal; 9,065 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   525.00 ft / 525.00 ft x 43.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   160.02 m / 160.02 m x 13.11 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
     Main guns limited to end-on fire
      6 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 5,683 lbs / 2,578 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   315.00 ft / 96.01 m   7.87 ft / 2.40 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   209.98 ft / 64.00 m   7.87 ft / 2.40 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   315.00 ft / 96.01 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.50" / 89 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 43,312 shp / 32,311 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 514 tons

Complement:
   455 - 592

Cost:
   £2.597 million / $10.390 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 710 tons, 8.0 %
   Armour: 1,396 tons, 15.8 %
      - Belts: 1,178 tons, 13.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 209 tons, 2.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 9 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 1,614 tons, 18.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,858 tons, 43.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 943 tons, 10.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 315 tons, 3.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,592 lbs / 2,536 Kg = 6.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.00
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 15.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 43 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 3.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.685
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.21 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   19.50 ft / 5.94 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Stern:      16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.09 ft / 5.51 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,853 Square feet or 1,659 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 562 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.84
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

15 tons damage control
25 tons long-range wireless
25 tons living quarters (12 man marine detachment)
250 tons undefined (hopefully fire control)

Comments?

France has quite a few 189X 305mm L35 in storage. Waiting to be recast.

Quote from: maddox on November 09, 2010, 05:09:32 PM
France has quite a few 189X 305mm L35 in storage. Waiting to be recast.

Sounds good to me.  I'm waiting for Egypt's naval propulsion tech to catch up with my design though.  I give it til 1922 (I think - don't have ready access to my sim reports). 

Your belt doesn't cover your vitals, you have no deck armor, you 12" mounts are open (no "other" armor, just Face and barbette), you're unsteady, unstable, and have excess overall strength to boot. 12" guns do not belong on < 8,000t ships, unless they're monitors.

second that. I would go with a 140mm main battery if no heavier guns are available. One reason why I went with a 150mm main battery for the Majestic. France only uses them on everything under the sun so getting help there might be easy

Does anyone else notice the very high BC, the 12.2:1 L:B, and the 3.50 recoil effect?  :o

The BC's not THAT high.... 0.685 isn't unreasonable for a CDS type ship. I think he's trying to crap a gallon of stuff into a quart jar. Or in simpler terms, he's trying to win football games with UT's offensive offense.  :P GO GREEN!!!

  For all the reasons mentioned - it's not a very practical proposition currently

Try - increasing beam, reducing freeboard slightly, reduce upper armour and increase bunkerage (for stability as well as range)

  - even then 12" is a big ask - might be best to reduce - or reduce speed to normal CDS type - 18-22 knots

Lots of options .....

Quote from: Sachmle on November 09, 2010, 08:40:03 PM
The BC's not THAT high.... 0.685 isn't unreasonable for a CDS type ship. I think he's trying to crap a gallon of stuff into a quart jar. Or in simpler terms, he's trying to win football games with UT's offensive offense.  :P GO GREEN!!!

Sadly, I can't argue with that.... :'(

I think he wants a cruiser, though, cause the speed is 27 knots. I don't think I've ever seen a recoil of 3.50...ever.

Quote from: TexanCowboy on November 09, 2010, 07:30:47 PM
Does anyone else notice the very high BC, the 12.2:1 L:B, and the 3.50 recoil effect?  :o

Is the recoil bad?  (To be honest the ship started out a tad larger than it is now.)

Quote from: TexanCowboy on November 09, 2010, 09:10:57 PM
Sadly, I can't argue with that.... :'(

I think he wants a cruiser, though, cause the speed is 27 knots. I don't think I've ever seen a recoil of 3.50...ever.

I am looking for a cruiser.  This is the first time in a while I've fooled around with springsharp, trying to get a feel for it again.  Also trying to get a feel for just simply designing ships again.  (Not that I ever really had a knack for it this summer.)

QuoteAl Hassan, Egypt Cruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   8,560 t light; 8,893 t standard; 9,248 t normal; 9,532 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   525.00 ft / 525.00 ft x 45.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   160.02 m / 160.02 m x 13.72 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      6 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (3x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 1,728 lbs / 784 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   315.00 ft / 96.01 m   8.05 ft / 2.45 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   209.98 ft / 64.00 m   8.05 ft / 2.45 m
   Upper:   3.00" / 76 mm   315.00 ft / 96.01 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 68,717 shp / 51,263 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 639 tons

Complement:
   470 - 612

Cost:
   £1.984 million / $7.937 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 216 tons, 2.3 %
   Armour: 1,379 tons, 14.9 %
      - Belts: 926 tons, 10.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 97 tons, 1.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 346 tons, 3.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 9 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 2,560 tons, 27.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,090 tons, 44.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 688 tons, 7.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 315 tons, 3.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,492 lbs / 3,398 Kg = 29.3 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 14.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.685
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   19.50 ft / 5.94 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Stern:      16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.09 ft / 5.51 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,684 Square feet or 1,736 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 591 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.36
      - Longitudinal: 2.10
      - Overall: 1.42
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

15 tons damage control
25 tons long-range wireless
25 tons living quarters (12 man marine detachment)
250 tons undefined (hopefully fire control)

6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
     [b]Main guns limited to end-on fire[/b]

The above from your original posted Cruiser... the part in bold is what happens when you have to much recoil.... or Recoil over 1.0....   

Your ship cannot fire a broadside without the ship rolling over  :-[
Dont worry it hapens.

Now as to Main Guns it is possible that you can either order the guns or the Engines directly from France or Italy both of which you have close buisness arrangements with.   

13.7m beam is not enough for T2x8"...

Increase beam, & recoil decrease automaticaly.



Jef ;)

Quote from: Sachmle on November 09, 2010, 06:01:59 PM
Your belt doesn't cover your vitals, you have no deck armor, you 12" mounts are open (no "other" armor, just Face and barbette), you're unsteady, unstable, and have excess overall strength to boot...

My biggest problem with ship design is the armor belt and how long/high the belt needs to be to cover all vital areas.  Any recommendations? 

High is debatable, how long however, SS tells you. On the armor page in the top right corner it says "Minimum main belt length to cover machinery and magazines = ??". Just make sure you're at least that long. On the most recent ship, it requires 425.65ft of belt length.

To lengthen the belt, you should decrease forecastle and/or quarterdeck length.  Manualy increasing the belt length gives other issues.

QuoteAl Hassan, Egypt Cruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   9,143 t light; 9,497 t standard; 10,275 t normal; 10,898 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   525.00 ft / 525.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   160.02 m / 160.02 m x 15.24 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      6 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (3x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 1,728 lbs / 784 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   367.56 ft / 112.03 m   8.49 ft / 2.59 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   150.00 ft / 45.72 m   8.49 ft / 2.59 m
     7.44 ft / 2.27 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   3.00" / 76 mm   315.00 ft / 96.01 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 74,718 shp / 55,740 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,401 tons

Complement:
   509 - 663

Cost:
   £2.107 million / $8.426 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 216 tons, 2.1 %
   Armour: 2,307 tons, 22.5 %
      - Belts: 975 tons, 9.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 169 tons, 1.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,152 tons, 11.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 10 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 2,784 tons, 27.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,521 tons, 34.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,132 tons, 11.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 315 tons, 3.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,671 lbs / 4,386 Kg = 37.8 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.685
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.50 ft / 5.33 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.25 ft / 5.87 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,759 Square feet or 1,929 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 482 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.05
      - Longitudinal: 1.68
      - Overall: 1.10
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

15 tons damage control
25 tons long-range wireless
90 tons living quarters (45 man marine detachment)
100 tons undefined (future fire control)
30 tons landing craft (5 2-ton motor launches-6 passengers each)
30 tons mines and minelaying equipment (~30 mines)
25 tons undefined (extra cargo?)

well protected design - built to last

but I think the Deck armour is more than needed - 2" might be quite enough

maybe with a few more tweaks - could manage 8 x 8" main armament??

  for FC - trying to remember - but i think more is required

Correct Mentat. The Al Hassan is in effect a small armored cruiser. So, it needs the 250 ton Fire control setup.

I tried to squeeze on the 2 other 8" guns, and it can be done, but only at the expense of end and upper armor.
Also, the reasonable draught went and was increased to 8 meters normal.

QuoteAl Houssein, Egypt Cruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   9.000 t light; 9.389 t standard; 11.212 t normal; 12.670 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   554,46 ft / 551,18 ft x 52,49 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   169,00 m / 168,00 m x 16,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 8,00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256,00lbs / 116,12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns in single mounts, 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2.240 lbs / 1.016 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,00" / 102 mm   374,80 ft / 114,24 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 105% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,00" / 127 mm   3,00" / 76 mm      4,00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5,00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 72.199 shp / 53.860 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.281 tons

Complement:
   544 - 708

Cost:
   £2,191 million / $8,763 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 280 tons, 2,5%
   Armour: 1.966 tons, 17,5%
      - Belts: 741 tons, 6,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 446 tons, 4,0%
      - Armour Deck: 724 tons, 6,5%
      - Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 2.690 tons, 24,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.764 tons, 33,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.212 tons, 19,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10.990 lbs / 4.985 Kg = 42,9 x 8,0 " / 203 mm shells or 1,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,05
   Metacentric height 2,1 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 15,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,92
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,19

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,517
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   18,60 ft / 5,67 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,60 ft / 5,67 m
      - Quarterdeck (12%):   18,60 ft / 5,67 m
      - Stern:      18,60 ft / 5,67 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,08 ft / 5,82 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127,5%
   Waterplane Area: 19.576 Square feet or 1.819 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 502 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,79
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

250 ton FC
20 ton marine quarters (10 marines)
25 ton Long Range wireless
5 ton undefined.

I PM'd a version of this to Darman earlier, but since Mario posted his shot I'll take mine.

Al Hassan, Egypt Cruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   9,650 t light; 10,188 t standard; 10,997 t normal; 11,644 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556.73 ft / 550.00 ft x 64.00 ft x 20.85 ft (normal load)
   169.69 m / 167.64 m x 19.51 m  x 6.36 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 2,240 lbs / 1,016 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   406.00 ft / 123.75 m   11.75 ft / 3.58 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.50" / 64 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.75" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 30.63 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,456 tons

Complement:
   536 - 698

Cost:
   £2.341 million / $9.363 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 280 tons, 2.5 %
   Armour: 1,870 tons, 17.0 %
      - Belts: 789 tons, 7.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 294 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 777 tons, 7.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 11 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 2,981 tons, 27.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,054 tons, 36.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,347 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 465 tons, 4.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,670 lbs / 4,386 Kg = 37.8 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.524
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.59 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.00 ft / 6.10 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,986 Square feet or 2,228 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 108 lbs/sq ft or 528 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.51
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

250 tons undefined (future fire control)
90 tons living quarters (45 man marine detachment)
30 tons landing craft (5 2-ton motor launches-6 passengers each)
30 tons mines and minelaying equipment (~30 mines)
25 tons long-range wireless
25 tons undefined (extra cargo?)
15 tons damage control equipment

Thank you both for taking time to re-sim this ship, I appreciate it and both designs look good to me. 

Now I need to figure out which design Egypt needs more.  I'd originally set out to just create a cruiser that could be stationed outside the Mediterranean (and considering people thought I was trying to make a coast defense ship shows I didn't do too good a job originally).  Probably stationed at Diego Garcia, which is roughly 3,000nm from Egypt (and whose facilities are currently being upgraded).  Egypt needs a viable raider as well as convoy escort.  I also had originally planned for 250 ton fire control (when Egypt has the proper technology).  For some reason I figured it was downgraded to 100 ton FC and went and distributed 150 tons miscellaneous to various purposes, specifically mines and marines.  Why?  Because at that point in designing the ship I saw the empty tonnage as representing an opportunity to place a platoon of marine commandos and the boats (motor launches) on the cruisers so that on distant stations the ships have some sort of power projection on the ground immediately available to them.  A general purpose cruiser, as I saw it.  Again, the presence of mines and minelaying equipment is to drop a minefield into enemy waters right outside a port as soon as hostilities commence.  Although in an age of aircraft that could be rather dangerous I suppose.

Well, Mario's has a little better protection on the guns, more range at a higher speed, and is lighter. Mine has all your goodies, plus the 250t for AC fire control. Basically you get to choose between 9000t and range vs 9650t and all your goodies. Mario may very well be able to fit your goodies in without dropping the range and still be under the weight of mine, I have no idea.

I'm rethinking the whole minefield-laying capabilities thing.  It would expose the cruiser too much for rather little gain.  30 mines might lay a thin belt across a narrow channel and it might surprise the first couple ships out of the harbor but its probably not worth risking a ship that could sit off-shore and wait for the merchantmen and interdict them that way.  That would free up 30 tons... I could get rid of the excess cargo space as well as some of the small boats for covert insertion (not that motor launches are covert...). 

I am wondering if 9000nm range is overkill for a raider based out of Diego Garcia. 

Cut down on some stuff. You actually had too much weight set aside for you boats since the rules only call for 2t per 1t of boat, and since you only had boat capacity for 30 men I cut your Marine detachment down to 30 men. Cut out the mines and "extra storage" and cut speed back to basically 30kts (30.01 to get an even SHP number). Cut the weight down and put the extra saved into some more armor on the guns and CT.

Al Hassan, Egypt Cruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   9,415 t light; 9,948 t standard; 10,745 t normal; 11,383 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556.73 ft / 550.00 ft x 64.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
   169.69 m / 167.64 m x 19.51 m  x 6.40 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 2,240 lbs / 1,016 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   380.30 ft / 115.92 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.75" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 72,000 shp / 53,712 Kw = 30.01 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,435 tons

Complement:
   526 - 685

Cost:
   £2.223 million / $8.890 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 280 tons, 2.6 %
   Armour: 1,980 tons, 18.4 %
      - Belts: 762 tons, 7.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 410 tons, 3.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 765 tons, 7.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 42 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 2,683 tons, 25.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,102 tons, 38.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,330 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 370 tons, 3.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10,878 lbs / 4,934 Kg = 42.5 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.509
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.59 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.00 ft / 6.10 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,641 Square feet or 2,196 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 539 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.54
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

250 tons undefined (future fire control)
60 tons living quarters (30 man marine detachment)
20 tons landing craft (5 2-ton motor launches-6 passengers each)
25 tons long-range wireless
15 tons damage control equipment

This is a well balanced cruiser.


Jef

I was reading something recently and I saw that the fleet involved (fictional fleet) had built torpedo boats and gunboats, in addition to destroyers.  Pretty much a return to the ship designs before destroyers.  They are supposed to be cheap units a commander can throw away.  For local support of battle fleet.  Roughly the equivalent of the gunboat concept of the US Navy prior to the war of 1812.  Not sure how small "expendable" is though.  I'd like to make a gunboat version with heavier armament.  This is the torpedo boat version.  

Quote
Damietta, Egypt Torpedo Boat laid down 1920 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   658 t light; 674 t standard; 740 t normal; 793 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   247.96 ft / 246.06 ft x 26.25 ft x 8.20 ft (normal load)
   75.58 m / 75.00 m x 8.00 m  x 2.50 m

Armament:
     2 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mount
     on centreline forward
     4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 12 lbs / 5 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 17,302 shp / 12,907 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 1,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 120 tons

Complement:
   70 - 92

Cost:
   £0.188 million / $0.753 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 396 tons, 53.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 231 tons, 31.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 82 tons, 11.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 4.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     256 lbs / 116 Kg = 45.2 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.489
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.38 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.69 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.65 ft / 6.60 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Stern:      11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.40 ft / 4.08 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,260 Square feet or 396 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 52 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 120 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 3.60
      - Overall: 0.62
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

25 ton DD/TB fire control
4 tons 18inch torpedoes (2 twin launchers)

And here is the gunboat.  Pretty much the same hull minus the torpedoes with bigger guns. 

QuoteDamietta, Egypt Gunboat laid down 1920 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   665 t light; 684 t standard; 740 t normal; 785 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   247.96 ft / 246.06 ft x 26.25 ft x 8.20 ft (normal load)
   75.58 m / 75.00 m x 8.00 m  x 2.50 m

Armament:
      1 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      4 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
   Weight of broadside 42 lbs / 19 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:

   - Conning tower: 0.50" / 13 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18,651 shp / 13,913 Kw = 29.50 kts
   Range 1,250nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 101 tons

Complement:
   70 - 92

Cost:
   £0.196 million / $0.785 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 0.7 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.1 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 395 tons, 53.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 239 tons, 32.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 75 tons, 10.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 3.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     248 lbs / 113 Kg = 7.0 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.489
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.38 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.69 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.65 ft / 6.60 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Stern:      11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.40 ft / 4.08 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,260 Square feet or 396 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 125 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 3.70
      - Overall: 0.63
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

25 ton DD/TB fire control

Somewhere on here is a whole thread of mini TBs, like 200t range. I'd search it and check them out. I think Guinness actually built some for the Ottomans.

Okay, thanks.  Yea I think the problem with these is they are too big.  Almost the same size as a DD but without the utility.