Dood de Nieuwe Zwitsers, Holland torpedohruizer laid down 1916
Displacement:
12,778 t light; 13,356 t standard; 15,493 t normal; 17,204 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
604.48 ft / 597.11 ft x 72.18 ft x 21.33 ft (normal load)
184.24 m / 182.00 m x 22.00 m x 6.50 m
Armament:
12 - 7.87" / 200 mm guns (3x4 guns), 244.10lbs / 110.72kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,138 lbs / 1,424 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 389.99 ft / 118.87 m 8.99 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.10" / 155 mm 2.17" / 55 mm 6.10" / 155 mm
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 4.92" / 125 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 91,283 shp / 68,097 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,848 tons
Complement:
693 - 902
Cost:
£2.050 million / $8.201 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 392 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 2,293 tons, 14.8 %
- Belts: 734 tons, 4.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 584 tons, 3.8 %
- Armour Deck: 910 tons, 5.9 %
- Conning Tower: 66 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,401 tons, 22.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,692 tons, 36.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,715 tons, 17.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 6.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,123 lbs / 8,220 Kg = 74.2 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.590
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.27 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.46 ft / 0.75 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.97 ft / 9.44 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 20.64 ft / 6.29 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.64 ft / 6.29 m
- Quarterdeck (19 %): 20.64 ft / 6.29 m
- Stern: 23.75 ft / 7.24 m
- Average freeboard: 21.64 ft / 6.60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.5 %
Waterplane Area: 31,228 Square feet or 2,901 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 122 lbs/sq ft or 598 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
1000 tons misc.
250 tons fire control
25 tons radio
25 tons radar
25 tons acoustics
150 tons torpedoes
That's a *lot* of AA. To compare, I've dug up some historical examples (see below). All of these are cruisers from the 20's. As a reminder: I think it's a safe statement that by 1920 OTL the airplane was a proven tool of war, and contemporary designers were taking into account it's threat. Here, only in the last month have airplanes proven themselves dangerous to ships that are underway. So I think 16 75mm AA guns and 32 15mm MGs might be an overreaction.
Historical ships:
HMS Kent (RN County) 1928:
8 x 8 in (203 mm) dual guns
4 x 4 in (102 mm) single AA guns
2 x 2 pdr (37 mm/40 mm) pom-poms quad guns
USS Salt Lake City 1929:
10 × 8 inch/55 caliber guns (2×2, 2×3)
8 × single 5 inch/38 caliber guns
4 × quad 1.1 inch/75 caliber guns
(I think she probably had some 0.50 inch MGs, but I'd have to check Friedman. The 1.1inch was brand new in 1929.)
Duquesne 1925:
8 203mm/50 Modèle 1924 guns (4 × 2)
8 75 mm anti-aircraft guns (8 × 1)
8 37 mm anti-aircraft guns (4 × 2)
(Cited as also having 4 triple 13.2mm MG mounts, but not sure when they were fitted)
IJN Myoko 1929:
• 10 × 203 mm (8.0 in) guns (5×2)
• 6 × 120 mm (4.7 in) guns
• 2 × 13 mm (0.51 in) machine guns
Trento 1926:
8 x 203 mm / 50 caliber
16 x 100 mm / 47 caliber
8 x 40 mm / 39 caliber AA
8 x 12.7 mm AAMG
I was more concerned about the main gun layout criticism. The NRDN is getting reports that Rift War air attack is FAR more effective than the MVB expected or that is publicly known.
Not sinkings here, but a lot of very close calls and incidental accumulated damage that would seriously impair operations.
I still don't think the aircraft is there yet, but the choice here was for arming independent operating ships that also operate as heavy escorts. A 1916 75mm AAA gun is for all practical purposes still just a Zeppelin killer.
D.
Ahoj!
Quote from: damocles on July 07, 2010, 11:15:56 AM
Dood de Nieuwe Zwitsers
Hmm, sounds like porn ...
Borys
You have too much AA guns & MG for a 1916 cruiser.
you could really reduce the MG.
in 1916.., consider also the DDs protection more important than AA protection...
So, choose 100mm or 120 for secondaries & just 4x75 AA
Jef ;)
I have to agree on the AA. However, nice name. ;)
*sniff sniff* man damage 4 or 5 measely New Swiss cruisers because they were sailing in such close formation that they couldnt dodge without running over their Destroyers. And then hit a bunch waiting to enter harbor and low on fuel.
In addition all these AA guns are either 20mm and less and therefore revenge weapons the torpedo is already in the water. Or 75mm and and basically lack the very reliable timed fuzes for a really good flak curtain. Fuze setting machines and accurate ranging on a target as small as a plane are a thing of the future.
But yes other then the huge number of AA guns not bad.
Hey Do we have Limitations for a gun either being a Hight Angle or Low Angle gun.
Charles
It's a fine ship, too much AA though.
Dood de Nieuwe Zwitsers, Holland torpedohruizer laid down 1916
Displacement:
12,995 t light; 13,593 t standard; 15,756 t normal; 17,486 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
604.48 ft / 597.11 ft x 72.18 ft x 21.33 ft (normal load)
184.24 m / 182.00 m x 22.00 m x 6.50 m
Armament:
12 - 7.87" / 200 mm guns (3x4 guns), 244.10lbs / 110.72kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
12 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (6x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,299 lbs / 1,496 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 389.99 ft / 118.87 m 8.99 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.10" / 155 mm 2.17" / 55 mm 6.10" / 155 mm
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 4.92" / 125 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 92,679 shp / 69,138 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,893 tons
Complement:
703 - 914
Cost:
£2.102 million / $8.408 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 412 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 2,303 tons, 14.6 %
- Belts: 734 tons, 4.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 584 tons, 3.7 %
- Armour Deck: 918 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Tower: 67 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,453 tons, 21.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,826 tons, 37.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,761 tons, 17.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 6.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,279 lbs / 8,291 Kg = 74.9 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.27 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.46 ft / 0.75 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.97 ft / 9.44 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 20.64 ft / 6.29 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.64 ft / 6.29 m
- Quarterdeck (19 %): 20.64 ft / 6.29 m
- Stern: 23.75 ft / 7.24 m
- Average freeboard: 21.64 ft / 6.60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.8 %
Waterplane Area: 31,522 Square feet or 2,928 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 124 lbs/sq ft or 608 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
1000 tons misc.
250 tons fire control
25 tons radio
25 tons radar
25 tons acoustics
150 tons torpedoes
I'd cut the machine guns in half....not very period realistic.
Tex is right...
Jef
Shouldn't AA machine guns be in single mounts as then they could be trained manually - and operated by a single person unlike pedestal mounts?
The Germans used a 37 mm gatling gun, something much like the old Hotchkiss naval 2 pounder as a balloon burster in 1917. They also shot at planes with it
That was a multi-barrel gun used on ship and land. It was heavy and it was manually trained, and served by gun crews.
I think that my machine guns in their quad mounts are in the same total weight class, effective range, and handled the same exact way.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=990CEED91130E433A25750C0A9649C946996D6CF
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92120
I should point out that the "flaming onion" was a myth born of optical illusion.
D.
Being Dutch, I approve of the name. ;D
I'd rather have the MGs in a simple pivot mount, and aim by tracers. With heavy water-cooled HMGs of the 1920s only single mounts would be light enough.
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_50cal-M2_MG_pics.htm
A pedestal quad MG mount is much heavier and IMHO does not worth the bother.
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_5-62_mk3.htm
Quote from: P3D on July 09, 2010, 03:23:35 PM
I'd rather have the MGs in a simple pivot mount, and aim by tracers. With heavy water-cooled HMGs of the 1920s only single mounts would be light enough.
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_50cal-M2_MG_pics.htm
A pedestal quad MG mount is much heavier and IMHO does not worth the bother.
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_5-62_mk3.htm
You know I may actually agree with you about that in "principle", but until I get the 50 mm AAA auto-cannon or buy something else and begin fleet refits the 1916 machine gun is ALL I that really have that is a true AA capable gun? The quad example has a better train and elevate than the 1916 75 mm balloon barrage gun.
D.
QuoteThe quad example has a better train and elevate than the 1916 75 mm balloob barrage gun.
But lacks oomph and range. How many .50cal hits does it take to take out an aircraft, let alone a balloon, compared to a 75mm round?
Quote from: damocles on July 09, 2010, 04:12:08 AM
The Germans used a 37 mm gatling gun, something much like the old Hotchkiss naval 2 pounder as a balloon burster in 1917. They also shot at planes with it
They also used the Maxim 37mm aka Maxim Flak M14, basically the same as the Brit's 1pdr Pom-pom, just an old Maxim 37mm on an AA mounting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_1_pounder_pom-pom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_1_pounder_pom-pom)
Yes to both, but I don't have the 37mm or the 40mm: I have 15 mm machine guns, then I jump straight to a 50mm QF. It has to become an auto-cannon in 1925 as well as the 75, and 125?
50mm won't have the ROF of 25-40mm guns, neither the explosive filling necessary to be useful save a direct hit - then they are overkill. Fuses are just too large for the time period. Why there were no such (50-65mm automatic) weapons developed before 1940.
I can see that. I also see that I don't have a 40 mm or 20 mm bore in my tech family, P3D, not right now. That is why I use all those 15 mm machine guns.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=880.msg5772#msg5772
There used to be a rule about machine gun (up to 1.099"/27.93mm) being exempt from the research rules, however it has disappeared. I'm not sure as to the current status of said rule. If it is still in effect, you could develop an AA Machine gun w/o cost (up to 1.099"/27.93mm).
To be fair, I'd have to actually buy such an auto-cannon tech from someone and then use the refit rules.
I believe your allies, the ESC have a 40mm auto cannon on an AA mount now.
That introduces some problems in refits. I think that at this point, if the rules permit, I'll introduce a 25mm Model 1920 in a twin or quad pending the development of 1925 AAA.
I'll base it off the Type 96 Japanese auto-cannon.
Actually I've been using the Maxim 37mm all along since it was basically a common 1890s design and so baseline. I'm pretty sure I asked about it at some point and it was ok. Still, it is antiquated and next up for replacement in Bavaria's line up.
The Browning action 15 mm in a quad stack is actually far more effective than the Hotchkiss (or the Vickers) and in that quad version (a la the Vickers mount as Sachmle so graciously cited) would tear any 1920 to 1929 era plane to bits inside 1,000 meters. It would be a revenge weapon, but it would be a fairly murderous flat trajectory high velocity one, which is what I think has caused us all to take a very hard look at it as regards play balance and historicity.
D.
Panzer schippe, HOLLAND TILLMAN laid down 1920
Displacement:
46,418 t light; 49,608 t standard; 52,080 t normal; 54,058 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
775.00 ft / 775.00 ft x 120.00 ft x 35.00 ft (normal load)
236.22 m / 236.22 m x 36.58 m x 10.67 m
Armament:
12 - 15.94" / 405 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,026.91lbs / 919.39kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
16 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (8x2 guns), 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
32 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 25,498 lbs / 11,566 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 17.9" / 455 mm 475.72 ft / 145.00 m 13.15 ft / 4.01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.17" / 55 mm 468.00 ft / 142.65 m 33.87 ft / 10.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.9" / 455 mm 12.0" / 305 mm 15.9" / 405 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
- Armour deck: 6.10" / 155 mm, Conning tower: 17.91" / 455 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 116,715 shp / 87,069 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,450 tons
Complement:
1,723 - 2,240
Cost:
£11.518 million / $46.074 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,187 tons, 6.1 %
Armour: 18,036 tons, 34.6 %
- Belts: 4,950 tons, 9.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,270 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 3,881 tons, 7.5 %
- Armour Deck: 7,396 tons, 14.2 %
- Conning Tower: 538 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 4,081 tons, 7.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 20,114 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,662 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
60,843 lbs / 27,598 Kg = 30.0 x 15.9 " / 405 mm shells or 9.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 7.9 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 17.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.560
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.46 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.52 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.78 ft / 5.72 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.78 ft / 5.72 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.78 ft / 5.72 m
- Stern: 18.78 ft / 5.72 m
- Average freeboard: 19.64 ft / 5.99 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.5 %
Waterplane Area: 65,515 Square feet or 6,087 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 232 lbs/sq ft or 1,133 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
1000 tons misc.
250 tons fire control
25 tons radio
25 tons radar
25 tons acoustics
150 tons torpedoes
525 tons for additions.
My version of a treaty breaker
I'm rather curious to layout and the armor.
The layout, having two quads to the stern and only one forward, means more of a retreating ship than an attacking ship. Given it's speed (27) and armor, I question why such a ship would need to retreat-attack any battle-line.
Then again, your AA is also overkill for this time-period and is completely unjustified. Smells like hindsightis to me.
Also, I do not know of any nation capable of rolling 18" inches of homogeneous steel. Even the maori, renown for their thick armor plates here, can only roll up to 15". There was a reason, I stopped my belt armor at 15" on my design.
Your ship's B/C is quite low for a quad bearing battleship and you also have 0.01 hull strength unused and wasted.
I read somewhere (iirc someone reposted some old discussions at Warship Projects) that the British (who did made the second best cemented armor) found that while contemporary (1930s) heat treatments increased the quality of plates up to 14" compared to WWI KC, but then the difference dropped. At 18" thickness there was no difference in stopping power between new armor and old KC.
So the Japanese approach of thick non-cemented face hardened armor plates for Yamato is somewhat vindicated.
As you roll thicker and thicker armor it gets harder. There is a reason that the US Standard Class didn't have armor heavier than 13.5" belts. The biggest problem is quality control.
To be honest I think we should have some type of limit on armor thickness. For that mater guns should have an upper end limit on guns. 18" is the largest practical gun size, despite design for 19" and 20" guns, the blast effects are just too extreme.
Michael
My 15" belt is actually 1" forward belt and a 14" main belt.
But yes, that was my point miketr.
Quote from: miketr on July 10, 2010, 07:30:33 PM
As you roll thicker and thicker armor it gets harder. There is a reason that the US Standard Class didn't have armor heavier than 13.5" belts. The biggest problem is quality control.
To be honest I think we should have some type of limit on armor thickness. For that mater guns should have an upper end limit on guns. 18" is the largest practical gun size, despite design for 19" and 20" guns, the blast effects are just too extreme.
Michael
This isn't the place for this but I've had the thought of extending the armor tech tree where new levels would describe the thickest armor plate that can be rolled.
One word answer.......
Tillman (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/bb-1917.htm)
D.
My understanding is that, at the moment, the Maori are rolling the thickest face-hardened plates in the world, and I've been advised that 'thicker than 15"' isn't really possible. If that restriction gets relaxed at some point, I'll probably go to 40cm plates for my next BB design, whenever that is.
Panzer schippe, HOLLAND TILLMAN laid down 1920
Displacement:
46,418 t light; 49,608 t standard; 52,080 t normal; 54,058 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
775.00 ft / 775.00 ft x 120.00 ft x 35.00 ft (normal load)
236.22 m / 236.22 m x 36.58 m x 10.67 m
Armament:
12 - 15.94" / 405 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,026.91lbs / 919.39kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
16 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (8x2 guns), 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
32 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 25,498 lbs / 11,566 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.8" / 375 mm 475.72 ft / 145.00 m 13.15 ft / 4.01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 475.72 ft / 145.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.95" / 75 mm 468.00 ft / 142.65 m 33.87 ft / 10.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.8" / 375 mm 12.0" / 305 mm 15.9" / 405 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
- Armour deck: 6.10" / 155 mm, Conning tower: 14.76" / 375 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 116,715 shp / 87,069 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,450 tons
Complement:
1,723 - 2,240
Cost:
£11.518 million / $46.074 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,187 tons, 6.1 %
Armour: 18,242 tons, 35.0 %
- Belts: 4,894 tons, 9.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,732 tons, 3.3 %
- Armament: 3,777 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 7,396 tons, 14.2 %
- Conning Tower: 444 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,081 tons, 7.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,907 tons, 38.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,662 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
60,878 lbs / 27,614 Kg = 30.0 x 15.9 " / 405 mm shells or 10.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 7.9 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 17.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.560
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.46 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.52 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.78 ft / 5.72 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.78 ft / 5.72 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.78 ft / 5.72 m
- Stern: 18.78 ft / 5.72 m
- Average freeboard: 19.64 ft / 5.99 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.5 %
Waterplane Area: 65,515 Square feet or 6,087 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 230 lbs/sq ft or 1,121 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
1000 tons misc.
250 tons fire contriol
25 tons radfio
25 tons radar
25 tons acoustics
150 tons torpefoes
525 tons for additions. .
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9153/kmsproject1089.jpg)
Macht , Holland frigate laid down 1920
Displacement:
45,942 t light; 49,253 t standard; 51,704 t normal; 53,665 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
767.72 ft / 767.72 ft x 118.11 ft x 36.09 ft (normal load)
234.00 m / 234.00 m x 36.00 m x 11.00 m
Armament:
12 - 16.14" / 410 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,102.91lbs / 953.86kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (6x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (8x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
32 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 26,974 lbs / 12,235 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 499.02 ft / 152.10 m 13.06 ft / 3.98 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.95" / 75 mm 499.02 ft / 152.10 m 33.20 ft / 10.12 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 6.89" / 175 mm 15.0" / 380 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
- Armour deck: 5.91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 133,634 shp / 99,691 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,412 tons
Complement:
1,713 - 2,228
Cost:
£12.041 million / $48.165 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,372 tons, 6.5 %
Armour: 16,855 tons, 32.6 %
- Belts: 4,244 tons, 8.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,810 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 3,420 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 6,933 tons, 13.4 %
- Conning Tower: 447 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,673 tons, 9.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 20,043 tons, 38.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,762 tons, 11.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,456 lbs / 25,155 Kg = 26.4 x 16.1 " / 410 mm shells or 8.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 7.7 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 17.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.553
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.52 ft / 9.30 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.42 ft / 5.92 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.42 ft / 5.92 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.42 ft / 5.92 m
- Stern: 19.42 ft / 5.92 m
- Average freeboard: 20.31 ft / 6.19 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.1 %
Waterplane Area: 63,460 Square feet or 5,896 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 234 lbs/sq ft or 1,142 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.36
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
1000 tons misc.
250 tons fire control
25 tons radio
25 tons acoustics
25 tons radar
150 tons torpedoes
525 tons spare.
Inclined belt: all or nothing protection.
Any ship so large would certainly require the capital ship diesel tech to be diesel driven, I think.
Back to the torpedokruizer problem
TK-C class , Holland Torrpedokruizer laid down 1920
Displacement:
3,202 t light; 3,309 t standard; 3,800 t normal; 4,193 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
410.26 ft / 400.00 ft x 35.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
125.05 m / 121.92 m x 10.67 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
6 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (3x2 guns), 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 365 lbs / 166 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 41,425 shp / 30,903 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 884 tons
Complement:
241 - 314
Cost:
£0.835 million / $3.339 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 46 tons, 1.2 %
Armour: 192 tons, 5.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 21 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 166 tons, 4.4 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,448 tons, 38.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,266 tons, 33.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 598 tons, 15.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 6.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,980 lbs / 898 Kg = 33.2 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 13.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (40 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.64 ft / 4.46 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 139.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 49.0 %
Waterplane Area: 9,122 Square feet or 847 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 314 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.46
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
250 tons Misc.
25 tobs radio
25 tons radar
25 tons acoustics
150 tons torpedoes
25 tons spare .
All or nothing; incllned protective deck.
This is not ideal. Suggestions welcome.
A torpedo cruiser, eh? I'd recommend more torpedoes. 8 on each side of the ship plus reloads. This way the cruiser can engage one or more targets relatoivelt quickly by bringing her unengaged flank to bear on the target and then steaming away to reload the tubes. This would be more fitting than firing a salvo of fish and then having to steam off to reload or just be out of torpedoes and forced into a gun fight she is not well suited to be involved with only six main guns.
Also more fish means a higher probability of hitting with more spreads in the water to cover your enemies possible evasive manuevers.
Quote from: Ithekro on July 12, 2010, 06:39:43 PM
A torpedo cruiser, eh? I'd recommend more torpedoes. 8 on each side of the ship plus reloads. This way the cruiser can engage one or more targets relativity quickly by bringing her unengaged flank to bear on the target and then steaming away to reload the tubes. This would be more fitting than firing a salvo of fish and then having to steam off to reload or just be out of torpedoes and forced into a gun fight she is not well suited to be involved with only six main guns.
Also more fish means a higher probability of hitting with more spreads in the water to cover your enemies possible evasive maneuvers.
TK-C class , Holland Torrpedokruizer laid down 1920
Displacement:
3,202 t light; 3,309 t standard; 3,800 t normal; 4,193 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
410.26 ft / 400.00 ft x 35.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
125.05 m / 121.92 m x 10.67 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
6 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (3x2 guns), 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 365 lbs / 166 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
12 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 41,425 shp / 30,903 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 884 tons
Complement:
241 - 314
Cost:
£0.835 million / $3.339 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 46 tons, 1.2 %
Armour: 192 tons, 5.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 21 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 166 tons, 4.4 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,448 tons, 38.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,266 tons, 33.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 598 tons, 15.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 6.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,895 lbs / 860 Kg = 31.8 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.00
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (40 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.64 ft / 4.46 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 139.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 23.0 %
Waterplane Area: 9,122 Square feet or 847 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 314 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.46
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
250 tons Misc.
25 tobs radio
25 tons radar
25 tons acoustiocs
150 tons torpedoes (3 reloads)
25 tons spare .
All or nothing; inclined protective deck
==============================================
Many thanks to Ithreko for a
great idea. This will be something that might go BOOM but it is so much what I have in mind with my current thinking on Dutch tactics that it actually fits my fleet even with the lousy gun characteristics. The max on that hull is 12 x 610mm torpedo tubes, though.
The reloads are what makes the cruisers such boom toys.
Well going BOOM is a side effect of many torpedo cruisers...are the big torpedoes oxygen driven or something not quite so....flammable?
Quote from: Ithekro on July 12, 2010, 08:46:10 PM
Well going BOOM is a side effect of many torpedo cruisers...are the big torpedoes oxygen driven or something not quite so....flammable?
1918: (+8) 20000@26, 15000@30, 10000@35, 300kg warhead (+2) 3t weight, 24"It won't be until 1926-1928 that the oxygen fish would be ready. At the moment they are either electrics (slow speed setting=wetheater) or large wetheaters.
That battleship looks like having a block coefficient of 0.75 or so, it should look somewhat sleeker.
Ahoj!
I like the Macht ... some minor issues (diesel, no. of AA guns) aside.
Borys