RFS Flevoland, Holland Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1913)
Displacement:
26,635 t light; 27,902 t standard; 29,267 t normal; 30,359 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
645.75 ft / 645.75 ft x 90.60 ft x 28.75 ft (normal load)
196.82 m / 196.82 m x 27.61 m x 8.76 m
Armament:
3 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (1x3 guns), 1,674.25lbs / 759.43kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
3 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (1x3 guns), 1,674.25lbs / 759.43kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
6 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (2x3 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
6 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (2 mounts), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all aft, 4 raised guns - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 11,653 lbs / 5,286 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 11.50 ft / 3.51 m
Ends: 4.72" / 120 mm 235.00 ft / 71.63 m 11.50 ft / 3.51 m
0.75 ft / 0.23 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 6.10" / 155 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 9.84" / 250 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
4th: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
5th: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 101,627 shp / 75,814 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,457 tons
Complement:
1,118 - 1,454
Cost:
£4.440 million / $17.760 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,457 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 8,684 tons, 29.7 %
- Belts: 3,361 tons, 11.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 806 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 1,918 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,357 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 242 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,982 tons, 13.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,462 tons, 42.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,632 tons, 9.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36,460 lbs / 16,538 Kg = 21.8 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.82
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.609
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.13 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.41 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (67 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (16 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 23.09 ft / 7.04 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.9 %
Waterplane Area: 43,150 Square feet or 4,009 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 199 lbs/sq ft or 972 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.84
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Fitted with 1915 radar. The 100 mm AAA guns are foreign purchase. Ship is offered for export.
================================
modified to correct mistakes.
D.
RFS ROTTERDAM, HOLLAND PANZERKRUIZER laid down 1917 (Engine 1913)
Displacement:
17,793 t light; 18,669 t standard; 20,051 t normal; 21,157 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
583.11 ft / 547.90 ft x 81.20 ft x 26.25 ft (normal load)
177.73 m / 167.00 m x 24.75 m x 8.00 m
Armament:
3 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (1x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
3 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (1x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
6 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (2x3 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
3 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (1x3 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,285 lbs / 2,397 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 410.11 ft / 125.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: 2.95" / 75 mm 98.43 ft / 30.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
39.37 ft / 12.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 410.11 ft / 125.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.94" / 100 mm 120.00 ft / 36.58 m 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
4th: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 9.84" / 250 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 86,681 shp / 64,664 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,488 tons
Complement:
842 - 1,095
Cost:
£3.006 million / $12.024 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 661 tons, 3.3 %
Armour: 5,963 tons, 29.7 %
- Belts: 2,471 tons, 12.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 401 tons, 2.0 %
- Armament: 1,155 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,779 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 157 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,397 tons, 16.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,673 tons, 38.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,258 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,265 lbs / 12,367 Kg = 40.7 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.601
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.41 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Stern: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.3 %
Waterplane Area: 32,570 Square feet or 3,026 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 155 lbs/sq ft or 755 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.38
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Fitted with 1915 radar. The AAA 100mm guns are foreign purchase. Available for export.
Main armament forward...
like Richelieu & Rodney
Quote...Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces...
So, increase the lenght
- deck armor is identical for the BB & the BC...
...
Jef ;)
D100, Holland torpedokruizer laid down 1916 (Engine 1915)
Displacement:
2,414 t light; 2,495 t standard; 2,736 t normal; 2,929 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.06 ft / 380.00 ft x 42.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
119.80 m / 115.82 m x 12.80 m x 3.66 m
Armament:
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (1x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (1x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
2 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (1x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline aft
2 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (1x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline aft
2 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (1x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline aft
Weight of broadside 394 lbs / 179 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
5th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 36,170 shp / 26,983 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 435 tons
Complement:
188 - 245
Cost:
£0.491 million / $1.963 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 49 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 238 tons, 8.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 37 tons, 1.4 %
- Armour Deck: 197 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,243 tons, 45.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 864 tons, 31.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 322 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,122 lbs / 509 Kg = 21.3 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 82 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.64
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m before break)
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 20.45 ft / 6.23 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 161.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.3 %
Waterplane Area: 10,634 Square feet or 988 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 81 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 192 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.49
- Longitudinal: 3.02
- Overall: 0.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The kruizer and the panzerschip are intended as design studies to fit the needs for a potential customer. The deck armor can only be so thick on that displacement and speed given our tech limits.
D.
You should (re)check your available engine techs as a 1915 doesn't exist (as far as I know). These are the most probable ones:
Quote1909: Engine year 1912, Max. non-VTE power 20,000 HP/Shaft
1913: Engine year 1916, Max. non-VTE power 35,000 HP/Shaft
About the torpedocruiser, even if you could build a 2500 t ship to DD rules (which you can't, you are probably limited to 1000 or 1500 tons) its hull strength is still too low because the "cross-sectional" value has to be at least 0.5.
Also, Fire Control requires 250 tons miscellaneous weight which neither design has.
Triple 6" mounts are not allowed yet.
Diesel electric on all ships?
Quote from: Desertfox on May 24, 2010, 12:03:09 PM
Triple 6" mounts are not allowed yet.
Diesel electric on all ships?
QuoteBB/AC Architecture - Main battery in turrets
1880: Main guns in twin turrets, secondaries in casemate
1890: Mixed main armament or AQY with double turrets+casemates
1904: All-big-gun ship with wing turrets, superfiring turrets (restricted axial firing arcs), improved turret hydraulics, Torpedo Bulkheads
1906: Superfiring turrets (unrestricted firing arcs), triple turrets
1912: Quadruple turrets
1920: No restriction (high or low) on caliber of turreted guns
Real world engineering.
Diesels can be installed as free cylinder assembles which means you can upgrade or repair engines without razing the hull. Diesel electrics mean you can scatter the engines low in the hull and MACK the exhaust so not revealing your position through a smoke column. Alternatively by putting a sulfur burner in the MACK you can lay thick smoke. Heavy naval oil likes diesels. You have to burn the oil separately to boil distilled water to turn steam turbines. A two step work transfer that does not allow for as efficient work output as final shaft torque as opposed to diesel electrics Smaller volume footprint for diesels as well means more crew and other systems space. Diesels only take minutes to work up to full power. Steam plant takes hours. Diesel electrics also mean short shaft runs. Plus a diesel generator plant can be compartmentalized, while geared drive turbines cannot be. Diesels are more fuel efficient than turbines. You can use electric motors for every gun turret and fore control director as well as steering control. This is simplest with an electric drive ship that already us set up for load sharing through a bus network. No hydraulics fires, no steam lines, if an electric cable is hit, jump it out and battle short your way through an action. A steam driven warship may lose ;power when her funnels are shot out and only some of her boilers are riddled because you cannot unit the plant. You have to direct hit every D/E generator to mobility kill a D/E warship. MODULAR design unit machinery. Net result? A ship that looks something like this.
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1374/foresightamericanavybat.th.jpg) (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/foresightamericanavybat.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
D.
Diesel electric capital ships would be ok I think, if your nation has both capital ship diesel propulsion, and turbo electric propulsion (which probably ought to just be "electric transmission" or some such).
Triple secondaries: secondary batteries are controlled by a nation's cruiser tech level. This is confusing, I'll agree. So in order to ship triple secondaries, one has to develop a cruiser tech that includes them. We don't have that tech on our tree at the moment. Mods will discuss what year we'll introduce it.
It is important to note this blurb as well:
Quote
Secondaries are 4-7" guns. 8-10" medium-caliber guns are not secondaries, but medium-caliber main guns
And yes, that means that by rule it would be possible to ship 8 inch and larger guns in triple turrets but not smaller guns. Again, I acknowledge this doesn't make sense, and we'll discuss it.
???
RFS ROTTERDAM, HOLLAND PANZERKRUIZER laid down 1917 (Engine 1913)
Displacement:
18,263 t light; 19,150 t standard; 20,051 t normal; 20,772 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
583.11 ft / 547.90 ft x 81.20 ft x 26.25 ft (normal load)
177.73 m / 167.00 m x 24.75 m x 8.00 m
Armament:
3 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (1x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
3 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (1x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (4x2 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
2 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (1x2 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,399 lbs / 2,449 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 410.11 ft / 125.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: 2.95" / 75 mm 98.43 ft / 30.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
39.37 ft / 12.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 410.11 ft / 125.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.94" / 100 mm 120.00 ft / 36.58 m 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
4th: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 9.84" / 250 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 86,681 shp / 64,664 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,623 tons
Complement:
842 - 1,095
Cost:
£3.058 million / $12.230 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 675 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 6,130 tons, 30.6 %
- Belts: 2,471 tons, 12.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 401 tons, 2.0 %
- Armament: 1,322 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,779 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 157 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,397 tons, 16.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,761 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,788 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,419 lbs / 11,984 Kg = 39.4 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.601
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.41 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Stern: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.3 %
Waterplane Area: 32,570 Square feet or 3,026 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 764 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.37
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Fitted with 1915 radar. The AAA 100mm guns are foreign purchase. Available for export.
RFS Flevoland, Holland Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1915)
Displacement:
30,177 t light; 31,512 t standard; 32,679 t normal; 33,613 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
645.75 ft / 645.75 ft x 90.60 ft x 28.75 ft (normal load)
196.82 m / 196.82 m x 27.61 m x 8.76 m
Armament:
3 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (1x3 guns), 1,674.25lbs / 759.43kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
3 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (1x3 guns), 1,674.25lbs / 759.43kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (4x2 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (2x2 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 11,653 lbs / 5,286 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 11.50 ft / 3.51 m
Ends: 4.72" / 120 mm 98.43 ft / 30.00 m 11.50 ft / 3.51 m
88.01 ft / 26.82 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 9.84" / 250 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
4th: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
5th: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
- Armour deck: 5.91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 112,149 shp / 83,663 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,101 tons
Complement:
1,214 - 1,579
Cost:
£4.704 million / $18.815 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,457 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 11,429 tons, 35.0 %
- Belts: 3,260 tons, 10.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 806 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 2,070 tons, 6.3 %
- Armour Deck: 5,032 tons, 15.4 %
- Conning Tower: 260 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 4,248 tons, 13.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,743 tons, 39.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,503 tons, 7.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
43,542 lbs / 19,750 Kg = 26.0 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 6.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.680
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.13 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.41 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (67 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Quarterdeck (16 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 24.46 ft / 7.45 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 163.1 %
Waterplane Area: 46,059 Square feet or 4,279 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 935 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.85
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Fitted with 1915 radar. The AAA 100 mm guns are all foreign purchased by buyer. Available for export.
Now then, the torpedo cruiser needs work.
RFS Jakarta, Holland torpedokruizer laid down 1916 (Engine 1913)
Displacement:
8,199 t light; 8,502 t standard; 9,161 t normal; 9,688 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
485.26 ft / 475.00 ft x 55.00 ft (Bulges 60.00 ft) x 18.00 ft (normal load)
147.91 m / 144.78 m x 16.76 m (Bulges 18.29 m) x 5.49 m
Armament:
2 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (1x2 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
2 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (1x2 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all aft
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (2x4 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 1,226 lbs / 556 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
4th: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 6.10" / 155 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 75,225 shp / 56,118 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,186 tons
Complement:
467 - 608
Cost:
£1.355 million / $5.422 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 153 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 1,388 tons, 15.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 262 tons, 2.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,068 tons, 11.7 %
- Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,948 tons, 32.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,410 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 962 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 3.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,114 lbs / 3,681 Kg = 71.4 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.625
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.92 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.79 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.54 ft / 6.87 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 121.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.1 %
Waterplane Area: 19,557 Square feet or 1,817 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 98 lbs/sq ft or 477 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.67
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Fitted with 1915 radar. The AAA 100mm guns are foreign purchase. Available for export.
D.
Weaker than the previous 8x15" fast Dutch BBs.
I'm inclined to agree with P3D - but like to know more on the intended role, likely opposition and design focus
- in particular they have 35% armour - with thick deck 150mm (OTT for Gunnery ranges in 1916?) and widely distributed over vertical with MB just 200 mm, UB 150mm and EB 120mm
- I see no immunity zone vs opposing BB guns at normal battle ranges
a 12-14" MB - would be more normal - and useful??
Also - range very short - all very curious ??? - can we be enlightened on intended role and likely opposition?
Diesel vs. steam. On one side, you have better efficiency and rage, on the other, heavier machinery (especially if you insist on electric propulsion).
SS2 does not differentiate between diesels and turbines anyways, so there's no difference in Navalism. Fdifferent machinery weights should have been implemented in SS3 one or two years ago but that project could be considered dead, unfortunately.
Triple 6" turrets. The wording is intentional and there's only me to blame for. The rules were written as they were to prevent people building WWII ships in 1903n and should not really not for ships laid down in 1920 Nverse. And secondaries are usually "mount and hoist" not turreted. People are pretty content with that as "deck mount" and "mount and hoist" weaponry weights are about half-third they should be.
This is about the most important correction already implemented in SS3b (heavier light weapon mount weights).
Details:
Flevoland is too fat (L:B of 7:1), to high BC (0.680), too short range, only 6 guns. BTW it looks like a 2-turret G3.
The torpedokreuzer would need at least 33kts speed IMO. They should not have 4.7" guns at all, it just confuses the spotters.
About the Dutch fleet. I think adapting to a significantly different naval philosophy would take more resources than available. Korpen's fleet was a deterrent fleet, capital ships with speed to catch cruisers, and guns to damage capital ships - with no "cruisers" built for trade protection.
Diesel electrics involve too much foresight, even if they are techniclly allowed. N ewSwitzerland which has the perfect fleet for such engines is still using turbo-electric drive. Only my destroyers use diesel electric and only for low speed maneuvers.
Your AA armament is also ridiculously heavy. Anything over a couple of 3" guns and a few MGs is overkill.
That said, New Switzerland really really likes these ships and hopes the Netherlands builds some. They seem like perfect ships for the Dutch.
Tirpitz and the plans for the Mackensens involved geared diesels.
Battle damage. Nevada and West Virginia would have been goners at Pearl Harbor if they hadn't had unit machinery and the extensive compartmentalization that such turbo electric drive gives. Given diesels of sufficient power, the range edge and fuel efficiency would have offset the weight. The Siam war should have taught the Dutch similar lessons.
Now as to naval philosophy.
QuoteAbout the Dutch fleet. I think adapting to a significantly different naval philosophy would take more resources than available. Korpen's fleet was a deterrent fleet, capital ships with speed to catch cruisers, and guns to damage capital ships - with no "cruisers" built for trade protection.
1. Riskflotte never works. If the fleet was supposed to deter it failed. Fleets fight either a trade war, or sea control, or sea denial when war comes. They cannot just sit there. The bluff will be called as it was at Jutland and here on the sim.
2. These paper studies are design trials, more intended to provoke comment and get used to a design program that is unfamiliar, at least to me.
3. The torpedokruizer is my fitst stab at an idea for shaking things up in the Riksflotte. Holland cannot build a massive fleet of cruisers and battleships to fight sea control a la Jutland. Korpen realized this and tried to build a few raiders and a sea denial fleet (hence all the mine warfare which ticked off so many people). He when forced to use that type navy for a true naval war found that he was reluctant to risk his expensive and few ships against a stronger coalition. His Riskflotte became a Sitzflotte when his allies needed him to fight. For reasons complicated which I still don't understand the war snowballed out of control and too many people got involved in what was just supposed to be a very limited and short war. It simply was not possible to fight it after a certain point.
4. I inherited that navy and the lessons from that war and I'm working on it. I've been here less than a couple weeks and I still am surprised by some of the results
Anyway back to naval theory Nverse 1918
5. Torpedojager are useless except for local defense. We won't see true ocean going destroyers until the current Nverse tech limits improve. In the meantime, the cruiser rules means that effective gunpower at ranges of 7000 meters or less predominates for second class battleships and large cruisers. That happens to also be the effective range of 1913 series torpedoes interesting enough. So if I can get the knack of designing a 10,000 mile, 10,000 ton cruiser with a huge torpedo broadside down, I have a fairly good capital ship killer for second tier powers like I'm likely to have trouble with in the foreseeable future. Shellfire cripples, torpedoes kill.
6. The 30 knot speed is based on a design compromise. I can't get everything I want out of a ship. I have to balance
7. All those New Swiss Zeppelins need a reminder that they are potential targets and not welcome near the Riksllotte. With balloon guns I can at least make a lot of noise and with enough of them my chances of bagging a Zeppelin are not nil.
For the present
QuoteNaval guns
5cm/L30 QF
5cm/L45 QF
7,5cm/L40 QF 6,5kg single mounts 1905
8,8cm/L30 QF, 9kg, single mounts 1890
8,8cm/L50 QF, 9kg, single mounts 1900
10cm/L30 QF, 15kg, Single mounts 1880
10cm/L50 QF, 17kg, Single mounts 1905
12cm/L45 QF, 21kg, Single, twin and casemate mounts. Horizontally sliding wedge breach-block
12cm/L50 QF, 24kg, Single, twin and casemate mounts. Horizontally sliding wedge breach-block, fixed ammunition. 20,8kg for a HE shell, 29kg for SAP ammo.
Both 12cm guns use the same ammunition.
15cm/L40 BL, 40kg Single and casemate mounts 1880
15cm/L45 BL, 45kg Single, twin and casemate mounts 1900, Horizontally sliding wedge breach-block
21cm/L40 BL 120kg Singe and double turrets. 1888
24cm/L40 BL 190kg Singe and double turrets 1898
24cm/L50 BL 190kg Singe double and triple turrets 1904
26cm/L35 BL 230kg Singe and double turrets 1880
30,5cm/L38 BL 400kg Singe and double turrets 1890, Horizontally sliding wedge breach-block
30,5/L45 BL 410kg Double turrets 1905, Vertically sliding wedge breach-block
35cm/L40 BL 600kg Double turrets 1905, Vertically sliding wedge breach-block
35cm/L45 BL 600kg Double turrets 1909, Vertically sliding wedge breach-block
38cm/L40 BL 820kg shell Double turrets 1909 Vertically sliding wedge breach-block
38cm/L45 BL 885kg shell Double turrets 1913 Vertically sliding wedge breach-block
Are my preferred cannon of choice upgraded to year 1915. I'll poke at the design studies until I get something I like, but it may take some practice.
The hammer and anvil ships are no accident. I wanted to try springsharp with some of the post WWI designs that were actually contemplated.
D.
The weight difference between turboelectric and reduction gear transmission is significant, and electric transmission is also less efficient. Add in heavy weight diesels and you have an engine that weighs twice as much as a compact TE machinery. Will look up the numbers.
Diesel does not scale up easily either. Larger engines are slower (they need time to burn all the fuel in the cylinder) and so less compact.. To get more power, you had to add more engines (leading to heavy transmissions and increased losses).
A strange SS2/3 quirk is that increasing bunkerage increase structural weight by only a minimal amount. In Nverse you pay for light displacement, so adding bunkerage is the next thing to free.
The Netherlands' Riskflotte IMO worked. It required, however, that the Dutch ships had technological advantage - larger guns and fire control. It was a great adaptation of Fisher's battlecruisers, fight long-range where you have the advantage. So no one attacked them despite their precarious geopolitical situation. Until they started a war without adequate diplomatic support, and the DKB decided they could 'risk' their ships (inferior on paper) for the time until more people lined up against the Dutch.
However, that technological lead disappeared, so indeed the philosophy should be revisited.
Quote from: damocles on May 26, 2010, 08:55:17 PM
Tirpitz and the plans for the Mackensens involved geared diesels.
Battle damage. Nevada and West Virginia would have been goners at Pearl Harbor if they hadn't had unit machinery and the extensive compartmentalization that such turbo electric drive gives. Given diesels of sufficient power, the range edge and fuel efficiency would have offset the weight. The Siam war should have taught the Dutch similar lessons.
Now as to naval philosophy.
QuoteAbout the Dutch fleet. I think adapting to a significantly different naval philosophy would take more resources than available. Korpen's fleet was a deterrent fleet, capital ships with speed to catch cruisers, and guns to damage capital ships - with no "cruisers" built for trade protection.
1. Riskflotte never works. If the fleet was supposed to deter it failed. Fleets fight either a trade war, or sea control, or sea denial when war comes. They cannot just sit there. The bluff will be called as it was at Jutland and here on the sim.