Nicholas van Rijn.
Nicholas van Rijn looked out of his Rikstag office. There wasn't much to say now as he looked upon the medallion of state office on its velvet-lined tray. It was a hold-over custom from the old House of Orange when the Stadtholder gave the medallion to his chief minister and hatchet man among the Trades Guilds The queen's emissary had thus presented him the medallion as her summons to become her new First Minister. With the help of the Social Democrat Alliance and the Moslem Reform Party, he, with the Constitution Party he led; now had the ruling political coalition in the Rikstag and the dubious "honor" to build a new government after the tangled web of affairs Maistricht Hoen made of things, starting with the Siam business, that brought on the No Confidence Vote for the faltering Liberals.
The reparations from that business with Siam still hurt the Kingdom. Hoen was directly not responsible, as the one who urged the war: that was Han Melenik, but as Melenik's stooge; Hoen was the one ousted as First Minister. Melenik, van Rijn would deal with another way than he did with Hoen. A stooge one votes out.....A warmonger one shoves out-especially a failed warmonger.
One simply does not start wars. Those wars lost are usually bad for business, and the aftermaths of such failed lost wars always mean lost markets. Melenik would be offered a post in the Suriname* as chief railroad ministe. He'd better take it, or he might find himself explaining to the press some things that van Rijn arranged to happen in Melenik's name, things still secret. If they got out? There were/are Dutch ways to deal with troublemakers like Melenik.
There were also much better uses for the Riksdollars Melenik wasted, van Rijn noted. The budgets for the last three years reflected HIS economic priorities, but still Melenik's Liberals had wasted the R$ on foolish ships and guns when the whole kingdom needed controlled investment in infrastructure. (See Sim Reports as published, D.)
* Edited to conform to current reality. D.
Welcome aboard!
Gentle reminder: if this post is pre-1917, then Mr. Melenik can take work in the Kongo; post-1917, the Kongo belongs to Gran Colombia and they may not want him...
Antony Fokker:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fokker_in_zijn_Spin_Dutch_aviation_pioneer_Fokker_in_his_first_aircraft.jpg)
Success!
Quote(http://www.luftfahrtmuseum.com/drwg/s/foke3.gif)
CREW 1
ENGINE 1 x 100hp Oberursel U.1 9-cylinder rotary engine
WEIGHTS
Take-off weight 635 kg 1400 lb
DIMENSIONS
Wingspan 9.52 m 31 ft 3 in
Length 7.30 m 24 ft 11 in
Height 2.89 m 10 ft 6 in
PERFORMANCE
Max. speed 134 km/h 83 mph
Ceiling 3500 m 11500 ft
This plane promptly crashes killing its pilot. NOT GOOD, Antony. Need to hire a crazy man who loves to fly, who is lucky, so Antony can work the bugs out. Where would he find one?
Its only a proof of concept plane to the Riksflotte, but DGPVO seems very interested despite the crash. Fokker had been working for the Germans..... Antony has some fences to mend to fix that little problem here in his own home country. Maybe if he could convince the Constitutionalists Coalition, that civil aviation was the wave of the future and that aircraft manufacture was part of any infrastructure plans they might make?
*He will. ;D
If a French Pilot is accepted, I have Fonck (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=309.msg46365#msg46365) who can fly anything that stays in one piece.
Just don't hire Manzo.... ;)
Food Riots.
Why did Hoen do it? Why did he sell off the Kongo? It just amazes van Rijn that Melenik's stooge did that thing. Like the Siam reparations, there was nothing to be done but adjust to the new reality of inflation and scarce grain supplies.
Then there is Fokker. He, a Dutchman, worked for the GERMANS. Now at last he brings a flying machine to the United Provinces and it crashes killing the queen's cousin? Its a political disaster if van Rijn cannot fix it.
There is Renee' Fonck, possibly the finest aviator alive. He might be able to handle the Fokker planes, until Antony Fokker works out the design flaws. NvR has plans for Meneer Fokker, that involve the current balance of trade issues. He needs that man to succeed. So NvR writes to the French premier, to ask a little favor....
Grain and a pilot: Menelik must answer for a lot.
Edited to correct for French government.
It's Premier, Premier Galpoux in this case, who's going the last HY before elections.
Renee Fonck tries to land the contraption.
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5862/fokker20e1.th.gif) (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/fokker20e1.gif/)
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He gets it down on the grass in one piece, but he curses at the mechanics who rush up to put the engine fire out.
"The Obereusel is unsafe!" he roars. "Fokker, have some Dutchman go to Bavaria and buy one of their planes you designed that I can fly without being cooked, or at least get their BMW engines!" He stalks off to the converted barn that is the plane hanger for Holland's nascent Riksluchmacht.
Antony Fokker looks at the expatriate Irishman next to him. "This is what I have to put up with? Bolcke was never like this!"
Wainwright just shakes his head. "The Riksflotte plans to put floats under that thing and also start takeoff and landing experiments from ships? I thought that you were sensible people."
Fokker grimaces.
================================
Meanwhile in Amsterdam:
Nicholas van Rijn looks at the new budget estimates. In addition to the tanks and the aircraft that the Rikswehr wanted from Bavaria (technology in exchange for Dutch engine tech) there was the gift NRDN radio station to the RRC. Expensive to mend fences after the wreckage of the war.
What could he do about the Pacific? He sent out a general proposal, and had sent out feelers to other nations.
The note he received from the New Swiss Government he crumpled up in frustration. He began to see exactly what the previous Dutch foreign minister warned him about....opportunistic aggressors he called them.
There was the New Zion problem again about to explode into war. Holland sticking her nose into that kind of briar bush is what cost the Dutch so heavily last time. Still.... The balance of power in Africa was about to be upset as it had in the Pacific and by the same instigators. Why did that fool Hoen give up the Kongo again?
What to do?
=================================
Bavaria mission.
Aircraft:
(http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5315/nversed5aircraft.th.jpg) (http://img686.imageshack.us/i/nversed5aircraft.jpg/)
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Tanks:
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5214/300pxholtprototypegasel.th.jpg) (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/300pxholtprototypegasel.jpg/)
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The tank looks to be a monster but the tech boost is the important thing.
Nederlandse Vliegtuigenfabriek (NVF or just Fokker)
Notables.
Antony Fokker, owner and CEO.
Tony "Wrongway" Wainwright", CFO and ombudsman.
Renee' Fonck current test pilot.
Dr. Albert Plesman, chief designer.
(http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5315/nversed5aircraft.th.jpg) (http://img686.imageshack.us/i/nversed5aircraft.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/563/nverseriksluchmachaircr.th.jpg) (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/nverseriksluchmachaircr.jpg/)
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===========================================
NvR nodded absently as Fokker explained hs plans. "So in effect we start with Baltic Confederacy designs?" He paused, "Second choice Confederacy designs?"
Fonck spoke up. "It will get Holland into the air, until Fokker can get our own designs to work."
Dutch Naval Command, Jakarta. Small office.
Pytee Hiet reads the message and then burns it to dust. "MVB, Amsterdam sends us their love and commands us to give NRDN all assistance possible. That includes radio engineers and signalers."
Jans Hilvius shrugs. "We don't have enough for our local forces, where and why should we provide for NRDN?"
Hiet blows the dust across the desk so that it scatters. "We don't have enough of anything, but still we must do....so how do we do it?
Hilvius has a bright idea. "Same as we do for the undereducated recruits we seek here for the Riksflotte and Rikswehr. We open a fleetschul or Landmachtschul and teach them.
"I suppose Amsterdam will want us to teach the Noians how to fly next?" Hiet has that sudden awful feeling even as he says it.
Hilvius smiles: "No pilots. No planes, we have to have at least one of each to start..... We just need to find and hire."
(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/364/nversetank3.th.jpg) (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/nversetank3.jpg/)
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The rather unimpressed collection of Dutch colonels and majors listen to the Bavarian captain give his enthusiastic speech. "This is the future of warfare!"
The Dutch-built monster belches smoke and flame, lurches to a stop, there is an enormous clang, something pops loose; more smoke and flame, it catches fire, and suddenly hatches pop open as a half dozen men tumble out and run for their lives as the monster sighs to itself, and burns on the polder.
"Future of warfare?" Henrik Edson snorts. "One kilometer and it breaks down. We were promised a pantser blokkenwagen, and we get a flaming paperweight."
"Don't laugh, Major. You have the honor of raising our first regiment of pantsers." Colonel Anser tells him.
Current RLM air strength as of 2H1919
Fokker D-V (from Bavaria), 500 aircraft. (fighter)
Fokker J-1 500 aircraft. (fighter)
Fokker R-2 500 aircraft (recon aircraft)
Fokker W-1 500 aircraft.(naval seaplane)
RLM bases. D-V J-1 R-2 W-1 Air Brigades
Amsterdam (1+3*) 72 72 72 72 1st
Flyssen (1+3*) 72 72 72 72 2nd
Jakarta (1+3*) 72 72 72 72 3rd
Ullapool (1+2*) 72 72 72 72 4th
Singapore (1+2*) 72 72 72 72 5th
Surabaya (1+2*) 72 72 72 72 6th
Totals 52 + 48 452+48 452+48 452+48
* Each air force base can call on the services of near by civil flying fields as satellite airfields. These are built and maintained as part of the civil air ministry(Note in wartime would be taken into RLM base service). There are 15 such civil airfields.
The RLM organizes in air brigades attached to a corps or fleet regional command.
There are currently six such air brigades.
Present compliments of Nobody's BBC code program
| RLM bases | | D-V | J-1 | R-2 | W-1 | Air Brigades |
| Amsterdam (1+3*) | | 72 | 72 | 72 | 72 | 1st |
| Flyssen (1+3*) | | 72 | 72 | 72 | 72 | 2nd |
| Jakarta (1+3*) | | 72 | 72 | 72 | 72 | 3rd |
| Ullapool (1+2*) | | 72 | 72 | 72 | 72 | 4th |
| Singapore (1+2*) | | 72 | 72 | 72 | 72 | 5th |
| Surabaya (1+2*) | | 72 | 72 | 72 | 72 | 6th |
| |
| Totals | | 452 + 48 | 452+48 | 452+48 | 452+48 |
NvR reads the telegram from Glorious France. The French premier answers his request for grain. The Nationale Politie almost overwhelmed in the Flanders provinces keep sending in reports of workers communes rising up demanding "bread". Things were calmer in Antwerp where the Marines replaced the Rikswehr garruson that proved to officered by unreliable holdovers from the Hoen government.
The question was how much grain would Holland need? 18.5+ million people at a 1/2 kilo a day was 287,000,000 kilograms per month for the next three months. Nobody in the Hoen government had considered, it took 9,250 tons of grain a day to feed the Dutch. The Kongo was Holland's grainery.
Nicholas van Rijn knew that it took 1 freighter load of grain each and every day from overseas to add to what Holland could grow herself. 5000 tons short was 5000 tons short . So Glorious France would supply the shortfall. She would sell the 5000 tones a day at about what it cost Holland to ship it. Cash and carry.
Which presented another acute problem....Holland did not have hopper cars and locomotives enough to, even with French help, move more than 3000 tons of grain a day from France to the Zeeland provinces. There would still be a 2000 ton shortage.
Longterm, the solution was simple. Holland needs another grainery to replace the Kongo.
Another food source, but where?
==================================================
And once again, Sechmle, thank you!
Logical conclusion, make a deal with the new owners of Kongo.
Otherwise, Egypt could be another source, the Nile is the Breadbasket of the world. One of the reasons Glorious France can provide a part of the Grain needed is the good relations with the former Caliphate of Caïro.
There is Nigeria. The van Rijn government sends a diplomatic mission to Lagos. Perhaps the kingdom remembers the Dutch from the past with kindness? Who knows? Its worth a shot.
Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. Riksdollars can open doors where guns fail.
D.
Next generation Fokker designs.
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/563/nverseriksluchmachaircr.th.jpg) (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/nverseriksluchmachaircr.jpg/)
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The WJ-6 appears to be designed for some different role than the D-IV and the J-3. It has a high lift wing, reinforced undercarriage and large flaps for use on very short land based airstrips .
The NvR government still is beset by food riots
A letter to King Lugwig III, NvR sends by courier. It contains a proposal to use Bavaria's good offices in Nigeria on behalf of Holland.
D.
I need to chime in here:
Even in 1919 there was a worldwide market for basic foodstuffs. While from a strategic point of view, it would make sense for the Netherlands to seek to assure a food supply in a time of crisis, like a war, in peacetime it seems improbable to me that the Netherlands would experience a basic staple shortage when the rest of Europe does not. The Dutch would surely be wired directly into the wider grain marketplace of Europe. Also I expect,given their trading interests in the far east, especially if food prices began trending high, some enterprising importers would be working hard to import rice from the East Indies post-haste.
There are also a number of other net-exporters of foodstuffs, including (I expect) the CSA, UNK in N. America, and Rohan, probably Bharat, and quite possibly the DKB and New Switzerland, among others.
Finally, I think it would be really surprising if the Congo was ever a major food supplier for the Netherlands, given its poor development situation and lack of large scale agricultural development historically.
I think Ukraine would be a good bet in Europe. Kongo was mineral resources not food, at least not basic food stuffs.
Michael
Right. Sorry, I should have qualified that paragraph with "Outside of Europe". Within Europe, France is almost certainly a net-exporter, as is Ukraine, and maybe even Bavaria and Russia.
Russia yes but not Bavaria, at least not without massive imports of nitrates, use of phosphates and high grade feed for live stock. I have read a number of works on Germany's economy in WW1.
Right now Holland has to import food.
I sort of looked at what that might mean in 1914-1918 RTL. What I discovered was that Holland was in quite a pickle. Officially neutral in the Great War, she was in effect
blockaded as much as Germany was so that the Germans could not use her as a conduit for overseas trade. Result?: food shortages, a lot of them.
Now we have the Nverse. Holland has ticked off a lot of the Far East powers. NOI is half a world away and rice spoils in a hold if it transits too long. (40 days?)
France has already offered to help, but 5000 tons of food a day means 200 freight cars and 20 locomotives running back and forth along the Dutch and French railroads daily. Its cheaper to ship the grain in on freighters that already exist for this purpose rather than spend a year to build specialized railroad rolling stock that doesn't exist yet.
No other nation besides France and Bavaria has offered to help. There are consequences to the Siam War and the sale of the Kongo for the Dutch. This is one of those consequences. Diplomatic isolation and economic dislocation are the natural results of two wrong choices.
The UNK is an option, so is the CSA and Gran Columbia, but frankly, as the situation is, where would the Dutch turn to first? Their allies and friendly neutrals. France, Bavaria and the ESC first. Then they might approach other nations for help.
==================================================
Meanwhile;
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2762/nversetank6.th.jpg) (http://img214.imageshack.us/i/nversetank6.jpg/)
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D.
My point is this: There is no war on right now. Nation states need not declare that they are giving help.
This part makes the leftist in me twitch a little (and I'm not trying to spark a modern day political/economic discussion), but:
The free market ought to be reigning here. If there are hungry people who can pay in Holland, there will be people willing to bring food there to sell. This could be small scale sales at or near borders, this could be ships laden with grain and rice, or it could be barge traffic along the coast, etc., but it's going to happen, unless someone takes action to prevent it.
As far as I know, no one is blockading the Dutch. Siam *might* be taking measures to prevent rice sales to Dutch buyers, but we Mods have not decided that to be the case, so instead that should be the status quo. We expect Siam is a major rice producer, but in reality this would merely be a drop in the bucket when compared to the food flowing back and forth among the mercantile minded nations of Europe.
Similarly, I'd be very surpised today if the CSA or Rohan is proactively preventing grain exports anywhere, but those players can speak up, as can Blooded about Russia. GC may be a net exporter of food as well at this point. I'm also fairly certain the UNK is not actively embargoing food trade, and if not, I expect Norman traders would happily like to make a few pounds gouging the Dutch if necessary.
Now what might be happening isn't a food shortage, per-sea, but a gradual rising of prices in Holland, which might just make people unhappy enough to unseat governments and burn their neighbors' furniture in the streets. This seems conceivable to me. I wouldn't necessarily call that a shortage though.
Quote from: Guinness on June 01, 2010, 08:44:51 AM
My point is this: There is no war on right now. Nation states need not declare that they are giving help.[/quote[
True.
QuoteThis part makes the leftist in me twitch a little (and I'm not trying to spark a modern day political/economic discussion), but:
The free market ought to be reigning here. If there are hungry people who can pay in Holland, there will be people willing to bring food there to sell. This could be small scale sales at or near borders, this could be ships laden with grain and rice, or it could be barge traffic along the coast, etc., but it's going to happen, unless someone takes action to prevent it.
1. Unless I read the diplomacy wrong, the Far East aside from the RRC and Japan is closed.
2. In Europe......
(http://foto.mail.ru/mail/olekit/3/i-4.jpg)
the food comes in through the channel ports, or through Bavaria or France. Ship or rail, that is the geography. Mostly by ship.
QuoteAs far as I know, no one is blockading the Dutch. Siam *might* be taking measures to prevent rice sales to Dutch buyers, but we Mods have not decided that to be the case, so instead that should be the status quo. We expect Siam is a major rice producer, but in reality this would merely be a drop in the bucket when compared to the food flowing back and forth among the mercantile minded nations of Europe.
Approach routes. Those who can help already do. The overseas trade has not spoken.
QuoteSimilarly, I'd be very surprised today if the CSA or Rohan is proactively preventing grain exports anywhere, but those players can speak up, as can Blooded about Russia. GC may be a net exporter of food as well at this point. I'm also fairly certain the UNK is not actively embargoing food trade, and if not, I expect Norman traders would happily like to make a few pounds gouging the Dutch if necessary.
Economics. The Dutch and the Normans?
QuoteNow what might be happening isn't a food shortage, per-sea, but a gradual rising of prices in Holland, which might just make people unhappy enough to unseat governments and burn their neighbors' furniture in the streets. This seems conceivable to me. I wouldn't necessarily call that a shortage though.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C01E0DD1F38E533A25750C1A9629C946996D6CF
Please, let's not confuse the actions of our nations with the actions of our (hypothetical) citizens and residents.
The UNK and the Kingdom of the Netherlands both promote or at the very least allow largely free market economies. So even though the UNK really really doesn't like the Dutch, it's still a long way from saying that the UNK actively prevents Norman goods (ie food) from being exported to the Dutch when it's in their own best interests for that food to be exported. Similarly, the Dutch might prevent the import of food from the Normans, but it seems unlikely they'd do so in this circumstance.
Ditto French ports, and certainly the Dutch friends, the ESC would not actively prevent import of food to the Dutch, no?
Also, that NYT article you linked is interesting, but most interesting to me in that it came in 1918, after 4 years of war. The last Pacific war, which was a long long long way from Holland, lasted barely 6 months, with not even economic measures being taken by Dutch neighbors in Europe. I don't think it would have nearly the effect that the de facto blockade of Dutch ports during WW1 had.
I understand the storyline, and I applaud it, I just feel compelled to point out some issues that make it less believable.
I probably need to make my motivation clear here: I'm perfectly ok with Dutchmen smashing store windows and burning bits in the streets because they can't get vegetables for stamppot cheap enough. I also do think it makes sense that as a point of national policy the Dutch make sure they can get food when they need it from somewhere.
What I think is important to note is that this is specifically a Dutch problem, and not a signal of a more general regionwide or worldwide food crisis. The Dutch economy took a hard hit when it's merchantmen were withdrawn from the seas during the last war, and this is a symptom of that. Or at least, that's now my understanding of Damocles' intentions.
What I think would happen is the cost of food would rise as food stuffs were bought from France, UNK and Baltics. I see no reason at all for shortages unless you mean the poor having food problems as thats possible with increased prices.
Michael
Quote from: miketr on June 01, 2010, 11:22:47 AM
unless you mean the poor having food problems as thats possible with increased prices.
That seems like the most plausible scenario to me as well, yes. You may also get some market hysteria along the lines of "I heard Tomatoes are running out and that's why they quadrupled in price, we better start hoarding." Sort of what we went through in Atlanta a couple of years ago with gasoline after Hurricane Katrina.
Most probably French deliveries will be by barges not rail, inland waterways are extensive.
Nverse Netherlands need to import foodstuff more than OTL. OTL it was a leader in intensive agriculture, but that won't help with the Nverse larger population.
If an alternative of the French deliveries is sought, it should be Ukraine-Poland. Outside Europe, it would be South America - but with higher than OTL population they don't have that much available for export - they have to grow wheat on the OTL cattle pastures.
Quote from: P3D on June 01, 2010, 12:56:06 PM
Most probably French deliveries will be by barges not rail, inland waterways are extensive.
Nverse Netherlands need to import foodstuff more than OTL. OTL it was a leader in intensive agriculture, but that won't help with the Nverse larger population.
If an alternative of the French deliveries is sought, it should be Ukraine-Poland. Outside Europe, it would be South America - but with higher than OTL population they don't have that much available for export - they have to grow wheat on the OTL cattle pastures.
(http://www.mapsworldwide.com/itm_img/9782913120204index.jpg)
(http://users.skynet.be/p.woinin/btm/be-map.gif)
If those canals are like this:
(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8224/canalschotendesselstopl.th.jpg) (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/canalschotendesselstopl.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Then barge capacity is about 500 tons (coal)? It seems to make some sense to use coast-wise shipping and rail which can enter into harbors and city centers, unload and turn around much faster and cheaper to do this.
D.
Macedonia in Greece was still in early 1900 under the Ottomans using wooden plows..... and Investment in Greece and or Ukraine and mechanization could yield very bountiful harvest.
As a note the Italian and Sicilian and Egyptian Winter Wheat Crops should all be hitting the market from May to July is the harvest. With the Spring Wheat Harvest begining in October and November.
For my part, I understand that the Kongo was, historically, a modest exporter of rice and sorghum (or something). This may still be going towards the Netherlands, as the Colombians' interest was in acquiring the rubber, cash crop, and mineral resources.
Agree that GC Heartland is not likely an exporter - possibly an importer. Although I would guess a lot of the Amazon rain forest has been chopped down in the past fifteen years to make way for agriculture.
The "state build" French Peniches are for river and canal use capable of 250 ton loading capacity, and at least 35 of these do regular Dutch tours. And that's not counting the real commercial shipping interests.
With an avarage of 5 kts those canal barges can transport grain from the big ports to the hinterlands of The Netherlands.
a) I would presume most Franco-Dutch trade would be by barges. Even the Rhone connects to the Rhine via canal. These are duplicated by rail.
b) The Arnhem treaty should ease rail transit issues through the ESC and Bavaria. Gee, pity the Dutch didn't invite the French to join that one.
c) on Bavarian agriculture, I did subsidize the building of synthetic ammonia plants using the Haber-Bosch process in 1914-1915, which also gives me something to put in my explosives if cut off. However, I haven't dwelt heavily on the others and don't expect Bavaria to be a great exporter of food. Or beer for that matter, we drink that.
d) Yes, the British treatment of the Dutch as the "port of Germany" in the OTL and the hunger that resulted get glossed over generally. Not having productive parts of Belgium serving as the front lines might help a bit though.
e) Overall, the Baltic trade, the ESC/Ukraine/Russia would appear most helpful in the longer term.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on June 01, 2010, 11:22:31 PM
a) I would presume most Franco-Dutch trade would be by barges. Even the Rhone connects to the Rhine via canal. These are duplicated by rail.
France is even sponsoring Barge Trafic, with the build of 80 Peniches (38*5.5m barges, specific for the French and Belgian Canals), and the subsequent "cheap lease for civilian puroses" on those, even if upkeep is payed for by military funds.
Quoteb) The Arnhem treaty should ease rail transit issues through the ESC and Bavaria.
Rail or Rhine...
QuoteGee, pity the Dutch didn't invite the French to join that one.
I guess it has other reasons the Leipzig Compact was started.
Quotec) on Bavarian agriculture, I did subsidize the building of synthetic ammonia plants using the Haber-Bosch process in 1914-1915, which also gives me something to put in my explosives if cut off. However, I haven't dwelt heavily on the others and don't expect Bavaria to be a great exporter of food. Or beer for that matter, we drink that.
Octoberfests anybody. or Oppau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppau_explosion)
Quoted) Yes, the British treatment of the Dutch as the "port of Germany" in the OTL and the hunger that resulted get glossed over generally. Not having productive parts of Belgium serving as the front lines might help a bit though.
Pity it's all but forgotten in Belgium.
Quotee) Overall, the Baltic trade, the ESC/Ukraine/Russia would appear most helpful in the longer term.
True, but France is equaly close by. And is still an important trading (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=309.msg39377#msg39377) partner for the Dutch
The Dutch Foreign Ministry invites the Gran Columbian ambassador to a set of meetings. Subject?
.........................................
Meanwhile the Dutch ambassador to Gran Columbia calls upon the GC foreign ministry. Presumably Gran Columbia and Holland discuss possible trade issues.
Dutch Foreign Ministry: Den Hague.
Anders Welsen: It looks like it can go either way in New Zion.
Nicholas van Rijn: Not important. We were not invited. We have no say. What about France?
Anders Welsen: They suggest barges and the canals.
Nicholas van Rijn: We stick with our original plan. Coastal steamer and railroad. Why haven't you talked to the Ukraine?
Anders Welsen: You never asked me to.
Nicholas van Rijn: I never asked you to talk to Gran Columbia either, do I have to do everything?
A Dutch colonel appears. He says: We have it.
Nicholas van Rijn: About time. To Anders Welsen, Get out of here and set up the agreement like I told you! And talk to the Ukraine!
NvR reads the report. The MVB has done some hasty work. Still not feasible......
Dutch Foreign Ministry: Den Hague.
Anders Welsen: We have a reply from Ukraine.
Nicholas van Rijn: Well?
Anders Welsen: They will sell is the wheat.
Nicholas van Rijn: How much?
Anders Welsem shows him.
Nicholas van Rijn: That's a fair price. Contact Bavaria and the ESC and get permission for the special transports. Maker sure of it. No slip ups!
The MVB sets up a foreign language school in Leiden.
I don't think much of that grain would arrive on rail. Barged to the Black Sea or the Baltic on inland waterways, then loaded on freighters. Water transport is much cheaper for bulk freight (by a magnitude).
IIRC Ukrainian grain was cheaper than Hungarian in the era, as there was no need for extensive rail travel.
Quote from: P3D on June 06, 2010, 11:58:40 AM
I don't think much of that grain would arrive on rail. Barged to the Black Sea or the Baltic on inland waterways, then loaded on freighters. Water transport is much cheaper for bulk freight (by a magnitude).
IIRC Ukrainian grain was cheaper than Hungarian in the era, as there was no need for extensive rail travel.
I agree with that, but some of it would still pass through ESC and Bavarian controlled territory either land or water..
It will most likely be transported by train to Liepaja,then by boat through the Baltic to Kiel and then through the Kieler-channel to Holland.
Most likely, however transport only by land is a possibility.
Speaking of which, can I get a safe conduct for the grain shipments?
safe conduct ???You have free conduct even through the Kieler channel as one off a very few(Bavaria),even your navy has access to the Channel,if due noticed(24 Hrs notice),as the Bavarians.
I think he was asking about over land route.
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Quote from: Marek Gutkowski on June 06, 2010, 03:08:53 PM
I think he was asking about over land route.
Well it's not like either the Bavarians nor the ESC would interfere with Dutch Grain. Heck if rail resources run low, maybe the Lugwig Canal can be pressed back into service moving Hungarian grain from the Danube to the Rhine :)
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Beautiful early Half-Track... What year was it first Produced...???
1921-1924. Its a heavily morphed copy of this>
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWI/ostin_kegress/ostin_kegress.php
(http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWI/ostin_kegress/ostin_draw_1.gif)
Since I don't have the armored cars down yet until 2H1920, its just a tractor.
Ive have been looking for some good Pictures for my New Toys 1915: Light Armor historical 1917 Light Tanks Unreliable and Armored Cars.... There are a few good pictures of such around.
Try Landships
www.landships.freeservers.com/
and here:
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWI/ostin_kegress/ostin_kegress.php
I usually play with the images to downgrade the stuff in appearance or change it enough to fictionalize. The Russian stuff is a goldmine because nobody knows about it.
You can also use this:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/
I prefer line drawings because they are easier to manipulate to morph than photoshopping the picture.
===========================
I better go shopping for some armor tech. :(
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Please note that the 50 mm gun is a low velocity gun more like a breech loaded minengewerfer or mortar bomb thrower than a true howitzer or gun. It is not a cannon.
Like the half track, and some of my aircraft, until I can develop the tech this has to be BOUGHT from Bavaria as an item they designed for Holland specifically. :(
Nicholas van Rijn is somewhat satisfied. The Japanese Katang resort deal will bring in a small amount of cash ($0.5 a 1/2 year) and bring some good will with one nation that has been skittish of Holland so far.
On related matters NvR notes that the NUS and the Kingdom of the Netherlands are in normalization talks and will exchange ambassadors.
The slow restoration of Holland's fortunes continues.....
MVB flash traffic to all Dutch military units and commercial traffic worldwide sent in the clear.
"Raise alert status from PEACE to CONDITION III. Explanation. Rumours and Humint indicate that the Dar es Salaam Conference is not mediating the New Zion crisis as expected. Own intelligence service estimates UNCERTAIN. Plan for WAR at any moment. Own government policy as published is NONINTERFERENCE and NEUTRALITY if war occurs. Instructions as per PLAN A. Defend yourselves if attacked. Do not otherwise provoke any belligerent action. PROCEDURE G in effect."
==============================================
His Exellence Francisco Nina Reverte is named Ambassador of Naciones Unidas de Suramerica...to the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
A Mr. Gunter Herzog books train passage to Vienna. He carries letters of introduction to meet with Minister Prince Pu Lin. Subject is business: specifically Dutch silk trade with the Middle Kingdom.
Having arrived in Vienna without incident, Meister Herzog checks into the Hotel Sache and settles in. One day later he heads for Metternichgasse 4, A-1030. It is the Middle Kingdom embassy and consular office address in Vienna.
Minister Kyrt Hurgens is on his way to the NUS to represent the Kingdom of the Netherlands. His books passage on the liner KSS Antwerp. He settles in and reads his mission briefs from the Foreign Ministry and the Trade Amt. Both briefs show that he has his work cut out for him.
============================================================
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Fabrique National demonstrates a new submachine gun for the Landmacht.
Colonel Geiner: "This thing is a toy!"
Whereupon Meister Henry Meoir, the FN representarive, bashes the colonel over his pointy helmeted head with the weapon, and lays the colonel out cold.
Then Meister Meoir sprays a cluster of wooden soldier targets some fifty meters away with a single clip. He tosses the smoking weapon to Major Hind.
Hind: "Its not even hot!"
Meoir: to the assembled and upset gawkers. "Count the bullet holes in the targets, my Meisters. You wanted a trench broom? There is your geleide ondergang trench broom!"
Someone throws a bucket of water over Colonel Geiner.
Major Hind after he drops the bucket: "Colonel I think the Landmacht has a new machine pistool."
Loopgraaf Bezem. ;D
Personally I think you'd be better off with a PPF. :D
Quote from: Walter on June 11, 2010, 08:26:31 AM
Loopgraaf Bezem. ;D
Personally I think you'd be better off with a PPF. :D
Do you mean the PPD-38? FN did not work in 7.62 x 25 Tokarov. Mauser, French and US ammo almost exclusive except what they made for the British.
The PPD was a hot SMG for 1939 much less 1919 outperforming everything except the ZHS Czech series, the Berettas and the Suomas. Best guess for what a fictional Dutch SMG would be like using Mauser (actually Madsen) export ammo and near US ammo was what I showed here. As to the durability and the stock? With 1919 sheet metal stampers and riveters as used in a locomotive works, (BRNO) that heavy thing will NOT come apart. You can use it to drive tent stakes and bash skulls. The only adjustanble stock I could think they would use that far back would be a screw type that would screw down and lock in place like the type of adjustment they used for camera tripods in the 1920s.
A PPD is just too outrageous.
No, I do not mean PPD-38. I really mean PPF: Pistolet-Pulemet Fedorova.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/WvRooijen/Navalism/IJA/PPF.png)
(few various bits slapped on a Thompson M1921 IIRC; stats the same as the Thompson)
Originally I wanted to slap the Tokarev(*) name on it, but with the curved magazine, it made more sense to slap the Federov name on it since the Avtomat Fedorova uses a curved magazine as well. Also PPF sounded better than PPT.
... I haven't told Blooded that I did that though. ^_^;;
(*) Vladimir Ivanovich, cousin of Fedor Vasilievich.
Quote from: Walter on June 11, 2010, 09:45:08 AM
No, I do not mean PPD-38. I really mean PPF: Pistolet-Pulemet Fedorova.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/WvRooijen/Navalism/IJA/PPF.png)
(few various bits slapped on a Thompson M1921 IIRC; stats the same as the Thompson)
Originally I wanted to slap the Tokarev(*) name on it, but with the curved magazine, it made more sense to slap the Federov name on it since the Avtomat Fedorova uses a curved magazine as well. Also PPF sounded better than PPT.
... I haven't told Blooded that I did that though. ^_^;;
(*) Vladimir Ivanovich, cousin of Fedor Vasilievich.
Uhmmmmmm. The only thing that stops that from being
an assault rifle is the
bullet.
You do use the 7.62 x 23 Tokarov or its near equivalent, right?
I might just have to adjust my numbers up in the next version of the FN MP 2.......
QuoteUhmmmmmm. The only thing that stops that from being an assault rifle is the bullet.
Got the
Avtomat Fedorova for that, but I do agree that the StG 44 mag does drag it that way visually. Can't remember where I got the other pieces from. I usually have a piture of the gun and the weapons I used for it saved as well, but I can't find it. :-\
QuoteYou do use the 7.62 x 23 Tokarov or its near equivalent, right?
Most likely though I expect the Japanese version to use the 8x22mm Nambu to match my pistols. *wonders why he overlooked the Nambu pistol*
... maybe I ought to go for the 6.5x50mm Arisaka. *runs away* :D
... though in that case it would no longer be Pistolet-Pulemet but another Avtomat
I don't have that tech tree. What I do have is the Madsen high power 9 x23 mm and a same length 11.5 mm (11.43 mm actually) bullet that I can step the grain burn up on and get 200 and 150 meters + respectively easily which match the MP-40 and the Thompson respectively chambered for those rounds. That will be the next SMG. I don't have the assault rifle yet. I had enough trouble finding a self loading rifle that was plausible as well as a machine gun that wasn't French or Habsburg or Italian.
The next mg though will be DUTCH. Morphed of course.
D.
Outside Namur near the 1st Cavalierkorp training grounds.
Colonel Geiner watches through binoculars as the experimental pantsertrupe assaults at the prepared simulated referent enemy defense. He sees the Bavarian technical advisers run around the polder like ants as the five clumsy GBW-2s slowly crawl over man-made hills through barb wire barriers and pioneer dug simulated shell craters toward a line of trenches in this proof of concept test.
Flagmen with bright yellow flags rush ahead of the blokkenwagens to provide moving lane markers and guidons and to scout the ground ahead for passability.
The Landmacht has yet to work out proper land navigation methods for these steel monsters and this is the stopgap simulation navigation method they use, until the Marine figures out how to transfer ship compass steering methods to this new Rikswehr landkruizer fleet. Geiner learns with everyone else here in this test just how ship-like these machines mechanically are and yet are not. They can founder, run aground, and SINK on land.
Legerinfantier follow cautiously after the pantsers at a good distance. They've already learned that the machines will draw every machine gun's attention that the "enemy" has. Its not safe to be close to the pantsers even in a kriegspiel (the Landmacht uses the German term). The enemy artillery is keen to "shoot" the GBW-2s too. Still half of the ten machines that started make it to the first trench-line, spray it with simulated machine gun fire and according to the Bavarian umpires who run then spiel, carry the position as the legerinfantier move up to take possession behind the pantsers.
The Bavarian captain next to Geiner asks: "What do you think?"
Geiner rubs his still bruised forehead. "Land navigation is awful. Those flag leaders would be killed in a real battle and then what? We need jagermen who can scout for the pantsers, and we need a working compass for those machines that can take the beating those machines dish out."
Bavarian captain: "Everyone has that problem. We have some ideas and some working solutions. What else did you not like?"
Colonel Geiner: "What do you mean?"
Bavarian captain: "You scowled when Number Three hung up on a slope and a 77 shot it."
Colonel Geiner: "Yes I must have. The assault is too slow, the machines too clumsy, too easy to hit and the whole scenario is just wrong!"
Bavarian captain: "What did you expect? What did you want? A charge of pantsers like the Queen's Horse Guards?"
Colonel Geiner: "No. These pantsers are not like hussars....they are more like dragoons. They need to be built and used to attack in the gaps and spots where the enemy isn't like dragoons do and where they can sneak through and get behind his front like dragoons do-not attack where he is strongest and best prepared. They need legermen to protect them from enemy legermen and they need those legermen to be as fast as the pantsers are."
Bavarian captain: "Been reading a certain crazy Norman have we?"
Colonel Geiner: "And if I have?"
Bavarian captain: "Not to worry, Sir. I'm reading him, too; and I agree with him and you. We need to work on the tactics, though. The machines are not ready and will not be for years, but the tactics......that we can work on until we get the machines. And to that end I have a few ideas......"
MVB flash traffic to all Dutch military units and commercial traffic worldwide sent in the clear.
"Raise alert status from CONDITION III to CONDITION II. Explanation. ESC has withdrawn from its oversight role at the Dar es Salaam Conference. Warship movement detected. Radio traffic analysis indicates several nations' conference representatives have sent reports to own governments simultaneously. Own intelligence service estimates UNCERTAIN. Plan for WAR at any moment. Own government policy as published is NONINTERFERENCE and NEUTRALITY if war occurs. Instructions as per PLAN A. Defend yourselves if attacked. Do not otherwise provoke any belligerent action. PROCEDURE G in effect. As of this moment we note New Zion waters are possibly mined. Avoid transit in those waters if possible"
Coded radio traffic.....
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****
MVB flash traffic to all Dutch commercial traffic worldwide sent in the clear.
"Avoid all New Zion waters immediately. Honor the declared maritime exclusion zones."
Coded message:
===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ======.
========================================================
Offices of NRDN:
K: "Someone is trying to break into our message traffic."
T: "Go into one time cypher rotation use immediately. Destroy the Brown Books and use wartime procedures."
===========================================================
Offices of Royal Dutch Shell.
Henri Deterding: "Its war."
van Paulsen: "Sooner than expected. Romania will cut her contract deliveries."
Henri Deterding: "For the neutrals, we will honor ours and if there is slack in the East we will make up the difference. Cash and carry!"
van Paulsen: "Except where we are excluded of course."
Henri Detarding: "I want our clear interests made known to van Rijn."
van Paulsen: "That presents a problem. He wants us to continue our talks with the Ottomans. He says it is in the national interest."
Henri Detarding: "Why New Zion and what do the New Swiss have to do with it?"
van Paulsen: "Oil and seapower. Ever read the Norman, Alfred Thayer Mahan? The New Swiss want a puppet state and raid bases in the Indian Ocean to attack our supply lines to the NOI. They want our oil. One of the reasons Hoen was a fool was because he took us out of Africa and cut a base link out of the long route that our tankers use when Egypt and the Med are shut down. Now with this war, the short route is closed. If the New Swiss and their puppets win..... the route closes permanently. That is what the Bavaria talks are about."
Henri Detarding: "And?"
van Paulsen: "The Iberians know it, too, but we aren't talking."
Henri Detarding: "We should?"
van Paulsen: "Plan G."
More coded message traffic.
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****
Meister Guntar Herzog stops at the Dutch consulate. It is located at Opernring 5
A-1010, Vienna. Like many a KoN businessman, he makes use of the extensive business library there to prepare for his meeting with Minister Pu Lun. Very little infomation he finds, but.....
(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3749/nversepulun.th.jpg) (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/nversepulun.jpg/)
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http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=980DEEDA1230EE32A25752C0A9609C946597D6CF
Where is Meister Herzog going to find a Mandarin teacher in Vienna, and where will he arrange the formal dinner?
OOC: You arranged with Phoenix? Pu Lun is under her control.
Well, I'm not sure I really have a choice. I mean, either way I go, it will take months longer, at least, and the RRC would be having nothing. Cutting it 75% would be the only way I could get a reasonable amount in, in a slightly altered time frame.
OOC He wouldn't dare without my consent. ;D None of you would... if you know what's good for your mental health. (And Maddox if he knows what's good for his marital life...)
No, seriously, I'm very impressed with his ideas and activities.
Quote from: Logi on June 13, 2010, 09:00:59 AM
OOC: You arranged with Phoenix? Pu Lun is under her control.
OOC.
Yes. Dutch information is sketchy at best and this is the information they have. ACCURATE information.
================================================
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w13/Babetheke/Navalism/HeaCou10b.jpg)
Pu Lun recent photo.
MVB agent 121 St Louis, 18 April 1918.
The van Seik Mission.
Stay tuned for how Guntar Herzog pulled this one off!
NRDN offices.\
K: Have you read this?
QuoteGuangzhou Plaza, the Speech is transmitted to the crowd and on radio to the whole nation.
Citizens of the Glorious Republic, I stand here before you, to address you all. It has been eight years since the hard fighting during the Great Revolution to overthrow corruption and oppression. It has been six years since we achieved our freedom. Some have asked, have we reached the revolution's goals? The answer is no. We have not. Our revolution lies incomplete, stalled, a project left unfinished.
These questions, this hopelessly optimistic attitude that I find instilled in many of our nation's citizens, saddens me greatly. It has been but six years, yet the struggles of a momentous time have been forgotten. The people have learned comfort in false safety.
This is a stern reminder to all those who think the revolution is over, our enemies are still out there, taunting us, with their barbaric acts, their oppression under the guise of freedom. We know, we suffered a similar oppression.
Do we, as Chinese, stand by whilst our friend, our neighbor, our brother, sister, father or mother suffers? No! That is not who we are, we are not so morally lacking. Citizens! Can you not hear their cries for help, their pleads filling with the stories of bloodshed and chaos? How can we stand to profit whilst the people are suffering, how can we pretend it does not exist?
We can not turn a blind eye to this problem. This is our problem, and it must be solved by our own hands. Too far have they provoked us, and continue to mock us. Prepare for war, citizens, our enemies will be taught fear and discipline and the people shall be liberated by our Republic.
Citizens, let every action by dictated by your love for China. Let every citizen mobilize for the revolution. Let us remember why we are living in such comfort. Let us be moved by our obligations and duty to bring justice to the corrupt.
Let us stop speaking with words and start speaking with the clang of hammers, the roars of revolutionary cannons.
Citizens, the country calls for the complete mobilization of your wills and efforts. We can not go back to our state six years ago, we must liberate. Every citizens must do their part, let the revolution and the revolutionary ideals spread.
Let freedom ring from coast to interior, let freedom ring from ocean to ocean. Whether it be those who conduct treacherous acts against the people hiding behind their false democracy or the corrupt dictator, let them hear reason, our reason. And if they can not be convinced, let revolutionary roar replace revolutionary literature.
We have stalled for far too long, our thoughts decayed by luxury. We have lost sight or what is right and what is true, what our mission is, and how to accomplish it. But today! Today, we regain that sight, we throw away corruption, no longer shall we wait for fortune to fall in our laps, but leap up and grab it.
China must be strong! And the only way is for our people to be strong and united in their wills. Let us show the world, we do not speak only. We are not a paper dragon. We are no longer the China that was humiliated decades ago by foreign powers. We are stronger, we are united, we are powerful.
Let the revolutionary anthem ring!
R: "I don't read Cantonese that well, what is it?"
K translates.
R: "Veertig duivels schilderen purper het!"
K: Yes indeed, purple all over. Send it on to the MVB. Let them worry about it.
=================================================
Message sent in code.........
^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^.
OOC: It's a speech, there is nothing written. Also, Cantonese is heavily slang oriented so Cantonese is very hard to translate if you are not a native speaker and not constantly there. Having Cantonese translators is very very rare, especially non-nationals. The chance is slim to none that the Dutch can get a transcript and translate.
NRDN exists for that very reason. There are Cantonese of the NOI, loyal DUTCH citizen Cantonese who can translate this and some of them are in den Hague.
HOW NRDN got the speech is a question for the RRC. Maybe the internal security in the RRC isn't as tight as hoped or maybe somebody just didn't like what they heard and passed it on to us? It matters not.
Remember I posted about a MVB foreign language school established among other tidbits in this thread? The clues are there.
Impossibility. As I said, Slang. Slang terms evolve in their origin. North Indochina speaks differently from Guangzhou's Cantonese. Hence language differences. Traveling to another part of the world, even two months, you will not understand all Cantonese in Guangzhou. Trust me, I know. This is a language based mostly on slang, if you are detached from it's origin, you will fall out very very quickly.
There is a reason why Cantonese is not taught as a language and that linguist acknowledge the effort as futile.
Furthermore, the question is not internal security, but rather hearing everything and writing it down, when that is not their profession. Noone would pass it on.
Your points are all mute. Most in China have nothing but the village radio to hear it from and internal security is tight.
You do not get to dictate what I leak.
Great.
Let us try it in current day terms.
One or other rapper from Los Angeles goes enterly slang and dialect in the 4th of july speech, and it's hoped for that anybody in the US can understand it, but that non US citizens, even fluent English speakers can't understand it at all.
I see it as a problem. Or only locals can understand the speech, and then a radio transmission is rather "useless". Or the transmission is made in a general language, so everybody with acces to a radio can comprehend it.
And, 1920 has recording devices available. So even the point of "needing a translator at the radio" is moot.
Hmmm quite true. But I still find it extremely opportunistic, really on a few chance probabilities.
You just happened to get your handle on a native from China somehow who was recently from there to translate. (Somehow!)
You just happened to have someone listening in by chance and then by chance as well, chose to record it.
Also, Cantonese is hugely different from English. I speak it well, so I know the differences between what you know of the language in a few months. It is not that you do not understand it at all, it is as though the person speaking cut of every time it came to a word semi-important.
However, Cantonese influence is large, so as long as you are in the great southern region (which does not include Shanghai and Nanjing) there should be people there to keep in line with the slang. The Cantonese influence is much greater than Mandarin in the south, so many more people would understand it. I assume major areas along the coast (which are where most the other dialect speakers are) will be visited soon for the same speech soon, but it will not be radio broadcasted.
I still find the Damocles' post very very opportunistic.
QuoteCitizens of the Glorious Republic, I stand here before you, to -------- you all. It has been eight years since the hard fighting during the Great Revolution to overthrow ------------. It has been six years since we achieved our freedom. Some have asked, have we reached the revolution's goals? The answer is no. We have not. Our revolution lies ------------------.
These questions, this ----------------- that I find instilled in many of our nation's citizens, saddens me greatly. It has been but six years, yet the ------------------- have been forgotten. The people have learned comfort in false safety.
This is a stern reminder to all those who think the revolution is over, our enemies are still out there, taunting us, with their -------------------. We know, we suffered a similar ----------.
Do we, as Chinese, stand by whilst our friend, our neighbor, our brother, sister, father or mother suffers? No! That is not who we are, we are not so morally lacking. Citizens! Can you not hear their cries for help, their pleads filling with the stories of bloodshed and chaos? ------------- whilst the people are suffering, ----------------?
----------------- to this problem. This is our problem, and it must be solved by our own hands. Too far have they provoked us, and continue to mock us. Prepare for war, citizens, our enemies will be taught fear and discipline and the people shall be --------------.
Citizens, let every action by dictated by your love for China. Let every citizen -----------. Let us remember why we are ------------. Let us be moved by our obligations and duty to ---------------.
Let us stop speaking with words and start speaking with the clang of hammers, the roars of revolutionary cannons.
Citizens, the country calls for the ---------------. We can not go back to our state six years ago, -------------. Every citizens must do their part, let the revolution and the revolutionary ideals spread.
----------------. Whether it be those who conduct treacherous acts against the people hiding behind their false democracy or the corrupt dictator, let them hear reason, our reason. And if they can --------------, let revolutionary roar replace revolutionary literature.
We have stalled for far too long, -----------------. We have lost sight or what is right and what is true, what our mission is, and how to accomplish it. But today! Today, we regain that sight, ------------------, no longer shall ----------------------, but leap up and grab it.
China must be strong! And the only way is for our people to be strong and united in their wills. Let us show the world, we do not speak only. We are not a paper dragon. We are no longer the China that was humiliated decades ago by foreign powers. We are stronger, we are united, we are powerful.
Let the revolutionary anthem ring!
Is what it would look like on transcript and translated by any Cantonese speaker who has been away a decent amount of time.
Then again, this does not account for the fact that Cantonese slang cannot, unlike English, be written down. There are no official words for writing Cantonese slang, hence it is just simply said.
Quote from: Logi on June 13, 2010, 06:42:42 PM
QuoteCitizens of the Glorious Republic, I stand here before you, to -------- you all. It has been eight years since the hard fighting during the Great Revolution to overthrow ------------. It has been six years since we achieved our freedom. Some have asked, have we reached the revolution's goals? The answer is no. We have not. Our revolution lies ------------------.
These questions, this ----------------- that I find instilled in many of our nation's citizens, saddens me greatly. It has been but six years, yet the ------------------- have been forgotten. The people have learned comfort in false safety.
This is a stern reminder to all those who think the revolution is over, our enemies are still out there, taunting us, with their -------------------. We know, we suffered a similar ----------.
Do we, as Chinese, stand by whilst our friend, our neighbor, our brother, sister, father or mother suffers? No! That is not who we are, we are not so morally lacking. Citizens! Can you not hear their cries for help, their pleads filling with the stories of bloodshed and chaos? ------------- whilst the people are suffering, ----------------?
----------------- to this problem. This is our problem, and it must be solved by our own hands. Too far have they provoked us, and continue to mock us. Prepare for war, citizens, our enemies will be taught fear and discipline and the people shall be --------------.
Citizens, let every action by dictated by your love for China. Let every citizen -----------. Let us remember why we are ------------. Let us be moved by our obligations and duty to ---------------.
Let us stop speaking with words and start speaking with the clang of hammers, the roars of revolutionary cannons.
Citizens, the country calls for the ---------------. We can not go back to our state six years ago, -------------. Every citizens must do their part, let the revolution and the revolutionary ideals spread.
----------------. Whether it be those who conduct treacherous acts against the people hiding behind their false democracy or the corrupt dictator, let them hear reason, our reason. And if they can --------------, let revolutionary roar replace revolutionary literature.
We have stalled for far too long, -----------------. We have lost sight or what is right and what is true, what our mission is, and how to accomplish it. But today! Today, we regain that sight, ------------------, no longer shall ----------------------, but leap up and grab it.
China must be strong! And the only way is for our people to be strong and united in their wills. Let us show the world, we do not speak only. We are not a paper dragon. We are no longer the China that was humiliated decades ago by foreign powers. We are stronger, we are united, we are powerful.
Let the revolutionary anthem ring!
Is what it would look like on transcript and translated by any Cantonese speaker who has been away a decent amount of time.
Then again, this does not account for the fact that Cantonese slang cannot, unlike English, be written down. There are no official words for writing Cantonese slang, hence it is just simply said.
That would still be enough for what I need, Logi. The meaning still comes through very loud and clear.
===========================================
Oh, do you? Well then, go act according to what you think my message is.
Quote from: Logi on June 13, 2010, 07:11:12 PM
Oh, do you? Well then, go act according to what you think my message is.
That would be what Intelligence Agencies do Logi, act on what they 'think' they know.
I know, Sachmle. That's why I said what I said.
MVB instructions to all Dutch military units sent in the clear.
Implement the 24 Hour Rule under the 1919 Naval Law.
1. As a state of war exists and we are neutral KoN civilian ports will remain open to all NEUTRAL merchant shipping with the exception of those nations declared on the Forbidden List.
2. No armed vessels will be permitted in KoN civilian ports
3a. Armed NEUTRAL vessels making port call at KoN military ports will be required to allow a pilot and guard unit aboard.
3b. The guard unit will stay on board for the duration of the visit.
3c. Any vessels refusing the pilot or guards will not be permitted into the anchorage or sea defense perimeter.
3d. If the vessel attempts to enter the sea defense perimeter without guard and pilot it will be sunk after one warning.
3e. Discovered submerged submarines, whatever or whoever they are, will be given a "signal water bomb" warning to surface, stop, and comply with 3a-3c or action 3d will be prosecuted. Failure to surface within two minutes of the "warning shot" constitutes cause to prosecute and sink the submarine.
3f. Failure to comply with these instructions will be dealt with under the laws of war.
=============================================
Declaration of defensive sea frontiers and the 24 hour rule.
1. As a result of the New Zion/Italy declared state of war the Kingdom of the Netherlands warns all belligerents and NEUTRALS that she invokes the 1919 Naval Law and implements the 24 hour rule.
2a. All UNARMED merchant ships belonging to belligerents have 24 hours to enter KoN civil ports conduct business and leave.
2b. NEUTRALS are not subject to the 24 hour time limits, however all other procedures here contained apply.
2c. Ships are subject to stop and search by the Marine Politie at entry and exit to the declared defensive sea frontier.
2d. Ships will be required to prove manifests and declared passenger/crew lists.
2e. Any deviation from the declared lists and the vessels and persons will be arrested under the 1919 Naval Law and prosecuted as smugglers.
3. The declared defensive sea frontier shall extend outward to a distance of 40 kilometers from the perimeter of a harbor or anchorage. This applies to KoN civil and naval ports with no effective difference.
4. Aircraft are considered "ships" for the purposes of this declaration. In the event of a stop order by blinker light or single pass by a Luchmacht aircraft, the intruder aircraft are required to land at the nearest Dutch aerodrome for inspection under these rules and declarations. If a Zeppelin they will be required to moor at a designated mast for the same purpose.
5. Failure to comply with these declarations subjects the offender to admiralty law. Civil Redress is allowed in those same courts upon proof of innocence as per KoN civil law statutes.
NvR.
Anders Welsen, Deputy Foreign Minister throws the cables and down in front of a very tired Nicholas van Rijn who has worked 18 hour days for the last seven months since taking office.
Welsen: "Have you read this garbage?"
NvR: "I don't need to read the newspaper lies to know they are lies, Anders."
Welsen: "What are we going to do?"
NvR: "We are going to do nothing. Until Herzog reports, WE are going to do NOTHING!"
Shocked Welsen steps away from van Rijn. He's never seen the man lose his temper. van Rijn collects himself.
NvR: "Look, Anders.....The New Zionists are mining the Rift. Those idiots don't know, like we do, that minefields are not perfect. Anchored mines break loose from their anchors and become free drift mines. Those mines will inevitably drift into their New Zionist supposed clear lanes and a neutral merchant ship will be destroyed. That is why I tried for a conference on mine warfare just recently. Only fools sow minefields and fail to declare total exclusion zones and closed seas. At least this time we published clear warnings of our own defense zones."
Welsen: "We aren't mining?"
NvR: "Of course not, but we patrol, and we make clear HOW we patrol so that there are no incidents and accidents. Did that last special get off to Herzog and van Seik?"
Taken aback by the change in subject, Welsen stutters.
Welsen: "Yes it did. The MVB is screaming bloody murder."
NvR: "Let them scream. The gamble is worth it."
QuoteNvR: "Look, Anders.....The New Zionists are mining the Rift. Those idiots don't know, like we do, that minefields are not perfect. Anchored mines break loose from their anchors and become free drift mines. Those mines will inevitably drift into their New Zionist supposed clear lanes and a neutral merchant ship will be destroyed. That is why I tried for a conference on mine warfare just recently. Only fools sow minefields and fail to declare total exclusion zones and closed seas. At least this time we published clear warnings of our own defense zones."
All it takes to make a minefield is to announce there is one. ;) Only I and the mods know if there is or is not a minefield there...
Quote from: Desertfox on June 14, 2010, 07:14:42 PM
QuoteNvR: "Look, Anders.....The New Zionists are mining the Rift. Those idiots don't know, like we do, that minefields are not perfect. Anchored mines break loose from their anchors and become free drift mines. Those mines will inevitably drift into their New Zionist supposed clear lanes and a neutral merchant ship will be destroyed. That is why I tried for a conference on mine warfare just recently. Only fools sow minefields and fail to declare total exclusion zones and closed seas. At least this time we published clear warnings of our own defense zones."
All it takes to make a minefield is to announce there is one. ;) Only I and the mods know if there is or is not a minefield there...
In the real world, Foxy, we CHECK declarations. Don't think I haven't thought this through in Nverse terms.
Minister Kurt Hurgens arrives at Buenos Aires as his port of embarkation. in the NUS to represent the Kingdom of the Netherlands. He disembarks from the liner KSS Antwerp a bit bewildered. He has to reactivate the moribund KoN embassy to the NUS. Bad planning that is not to send staff with him. Later maybe he can set up a local staff of KoN expatriates to fill in until the foreign office sends more help, but first he must do two things,
-find the NUS Foreign Ministry and present his credentials and be certified. After asking for directions in broken Spanish and several days wandering, he finds the Ministry and is formally greeted and certified by a very puzzled deputy minister who had sent people out to look for the lost Hollander when the reception party missed him at the boat.
-find or at least establish a Dutch Consulate.
Here the NUS Ministry is of more help than the KoN Foreign Ministry has been. They find an old abandoned small hotel for him in the capital and assign him a typist as an assitant, whose Dutch is non-existent, but whose French is good enough for Meister Huergens to understand.
Kyrt has a limited expense account (The Landsraad are SKINFLINTS) so he quickly uses up most of what funds he has to fix the hotel's roof, have the place cleaned and repainted, hire workers to electrify the building, and generally convert the hotel into a small embassy. His first cables to den Hague are requests for more money and for at least a couple of Spanish speaking aides.
Anders Welsen sends him a message that more or less tells Meister Huergens, "Live within your budget and hire someone local to teach you Spanish!"
So like many a KoN diplomat short on funds and out in the cruel Nverse, Kyrt wheels and deals for furnishings, supplies, and local people who he hires to do the embassy work that he cannot by himself do.*
This does not go unnoticed..........
Quote
* The art of diplomacy is doing the impossible with nothing.
Metternich.
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That ordnance, and 1000 tons of ammunition to go with it on credit.
Enough to supply a Korp for two months.
================================
Offices of NvR in den Hague.
People work hard these days. NvR is one of them. The Ukraine wheat arrives on schedule by ship and barge and late by train. OHB's manager will find himself counting bananas in Surinam for that one. Coded cables from the NUS's Embassy new activated shows that Anser Welsen thoroughly bungled that mission.
Colonel Geiner sends in memo after memo about some Bavarian officer who he claims is a military genius and who he wants to set to the task of re-organizing the Landmacht, while some Major Hind claims the same Landmacht is hopelessly obsolete and officered by idiots, including specifically Colonel Geiner.
Herzog is missing and so is van Seik and his whole enormous staff. Meanwhile another shipment leaves Antwerp.
NvR just prays that everybody and everything comes together IN TIME.
Some time prior to his mysterious disappearance, Guntar Herzog goes about his business. There is a a lot he does in the local Vienna textile and fashion markets and shops where he conducts much residual commerce as a buyer and seller of textiles. Much of it is actually very profitable because he IS what his visa says he is, a Hollander in the clothier and fashion trades.........among other things. Some of his deals though are more than just the usual negotiations over wools and linens.
Take the case of Minister Prince Pu Lun......
Guntar Herzog thus sends a cable to den Hague. Two days later a Holland Railroad Transit Company (De Openbare Doorgang van Holland Amt) or ODH train arrives with a chef from de Soit a very famous Dutch restaurant noted for its Asian Cuisine, and a Chinese language teacher from the MVB Language School and this:
(http://www.allabouttime.net/Merchant5/graphics/00000002/BN6123.jpg)
a Dutch wall clock.
Chef Juso will prepare this for Guntar and his esteemed guest and his entourage:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2778/4434709890_f0b594006c_o.jpg)
Beijing Duck
and this:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2316/2122776733_778d19565e_m.jpg)
Almond semolina pudding with red currant sauce by make life sweeter!
Its a classic Dutch dessert called amandel griesmeelpudding met bessensapsaus
Guntar invites Prince Pu Lun to a classic Vlaams Hoog Feest at his suite at the Sache. The Prince to Herzog's surprise accepts.
At the meal, after the presentation of the gift, the taciturn Hollander follows the Six Steps of Confucius (as instructed by his "language teacher" until its time to discuss the serious matters. That is when the great Prince is satisfied that the Xirong in front of him is not a totally culture-less barbarian. Its curious that the Prince eats only from what portion Guntar first eats, and then only after what must be a food taster who tests it first. There is Middle Kingdom trust here, that and the reputation of the Dutch? Guntar speaks.
Guntar: "Your Highness. The world is a cruel master to those who have not the means to secure their honor. As Sun Tzu said 'When the leader is morally weak and his discipline not strict, when his instructions and guidance are not enlightened, when there are no consistent rules, neighboring rulers will take advantage of this.' This is as true for us, who serve Queen Wilhelmina as it was for your August Kingdom when some of its servants failed its Emperor. We failed our Queen in our duty. Now we try to make amends for this. Part of that duty is the reason I am here....to offer our small assistance to your August Middle Kingdom"
Prince Pu Lun speaks through his interpreter. The man who speaks for the Prince speaks perfect German. This is fortunate as Herzog's crash course in Chinese is restricted to the carefully rehearsed words that he speaks by rote from the speech his "teacher" prepared for him to say. He does not even know if he speaks the words with the correct inflection. So much could go wrong here with a misplaced word or wrong inflected syllable. From the corner of his eye, he checks with his "teacher". That man is as impassive as the Prince.
The spokesman more or less tells Herzog back exactly what he said, but from the Middle Kingdom's point of view which is cautious and noncommittal.
Guntar: "What we can do depends on what your August Realm decides. We are not ones to tell you what you, yourselves know. Maybe if a few others and I could join your entourage as attendants to your honored peerage we could accompany you back to your great land for the pending wedding that is for your August Personage. There we together could discuss amongst secure and familiar surroundings our mutual adversity in this world and mutual advantage of facing it together?"
At this point, Guntar Herzog hands the Prince's spokesman the letter that he has carried on his person for this very moment. As expected, the spokesman opens the letter to check for treachery and to check its content for other meaning. He finishes reading the letter and then leans over to the Prince and whispers in his ear. The Prince nods just once and then reads the letter himself.
Guntar waits......it seems an hour but only takes a few (five?) minutes.
Prince Pu Lin: "You may accompany me as part of my entourage, Herr Herzog, and we will discuss "the silk trade" as we journey....."
SUCCESS! Again with the carefully rehearsed Chinese.
Guntar: "With profound thanks for your attention, I go to prepare our half of the journey."
=========================================
Soon.
===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====
Another ODH train arrives, this one a special train, one of the ones Queen Wilhelmina uses when she makes a pilgrimage around the stadt or when she goes to visit the other stadtholders who are her peers in Europe (Not happened recently because of that fool, Hoen)
This time the entourage that boards is decidedly not of the Dutch Royal House.....and then the train pulls out of the Südtiroler Platz and heads back for Bavaria and then it disappears..... As does Guntar Herzog, and two hundred other people aboard that train. They just "vanish".
Not even Nicholas van Rijn who set this all in motion a year ago, when he set to throw Hoen out of power, knows where they are or when they will appear again.
Its one of the many things he cannot control.
=================================================
Near the Namur test range, a Generaal-Majoor Albert van Seik, in his office opens a letter bearing the First Minister's wax seal. He reads the letter, grunts once in disgust, and waves the staff officer who brought the letter to him away. Generaal van Seik lights a Turkish cigarette, a habit he picked up among the Ottomans and sets the letter alight. He waits for it to ash and then he mixes the ash in his favorite tulips. Waste nothing, not even ash.
He calls in his adjutant, issues a brief string of sensible orders, and then.......he disappears. Next day, those who expect him to look over the latest GBW-2 modifications on the parade field are surprised to see him nowhere to be found. An intense quick base search reveals nothing. The Landmacht Politei and Staft Politei both open immediate investigations. Generaal van Seik is not that important in the scheme of things, but after all he is a generaal. Those types just don't disappear.
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Still no armored cars yet. :(
Quote
(http://www.allabouttime.net/Merchant5/graphics/00000002/BN6123.jpg)
a Dutch wall clock.
Dang! That
really looks familiar. :)
Quote from: damocles on June 16, 2010, 09:26:08 AM
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Still no armored cars yet. :(
Evil Laugh... No Problem I will deploy some for you...
Charles
More coded radio traffic.
$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$
And the reply
$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$
Sent in the clear.
Idiots!
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And more ships leave Antwerp.
From the Press Office of the Koninklijke Marine
The following ships have been assigned to the 11th Squadron as TG 11 for the purposes of anti-piracy patrol and increased security in the East Indian Ocean, NOI Philippine and South China Sea Area.*
Antwerpen Antwerpen class
Amsterdam Antwerpen class
Flanders Flanders class
van Amstel van der Zaan class
Hang Tuah van der Zaan class
plus TBJs and AOs as required for operations.
1. Standing instructions are to come to the aid and rescue of any neutral shipping attacked by pirates in the covered patrol region. Under the 1919 Naval Law a non-belligerent NEUTRAL ship in International Waters that flashes the signal "RRR" when attacked by pirates will be assisted if time practicable.
2. In these troubled times of war, it is incumbent upon all civilized nations to remain true to International Law and recognized conventions against piracy, smuggling, and the slave trade.
===============================================
From the Office of Queen Wilhelmina II, Stadthalder and sovereign of the United Provinces.
"We thank our cousin sovereign, Kaiser Stefan II, Stadthalder, of the Habsburger Kaiserreich for joining in this our contribution to the peace and personally thank him for his courage in taking this action on the behalf towards maintaining that peace, at least upon the seas."
================================================
In a parallel note, the Habsburg Auslaenderministerium announces that:
"In the Service of peace and after consulting its Allies, the Habsburg Monarchy accepted the offer of the United Nederlands to partake in joint Anti-Piracy patrols in the general South-East Pacific Area. The Far Asian Squadron formed by the KKK for the occasion consists of ... "
SMS Siligia - battleship
SMS Sankt Florian - AC
SMS Svaty Vaclav - AC
SMS Svaty Sava - AC
SMS Svaty Vlah - AC
"In a related note, the KKK announced the dispatch of the SMS Juan de Austria and SMS Tegetthoff, accompanied by a division of small cruisers, for a training mission in the Arabian Sea."
=================================================
Koninklijke Marine, Singapore (Orden) Sent in the clear.
1. The Habsburger Kaiserreich Marine (KKK) has dispatched a squadron to our region of responsibility waters to conduct joint and separate anti-piracy and peace patrols.
2. This East Asia Squadron is known to us administratively as TG 12 and as a part of the 11th Squadron.
3. It is to be logistically based, supported, and sustained as if it were an element of the Koninklijke Marine but remains under the orders of the Habsburger Kaiserreich Marine operationally
4. The bases, anchorages and berths assigned for their use are Singapore and Surabaya.
5. The Peace Patrol Liaison Kommandant (11th Squadron) is hereby established at Batavia.
a. A KM liaison team headed by Kapitein ter Zee Ernedotte Zwilling will with its Habsburg counterpart (to be assigned) will conduct joint coordination planning for KM forces with the KKK. That team will operate the joint headquarters at Batavia
b. The deputy commander for the KM liasion team assigned is Majoor Song Nuk Do of the KM Marines.
c. By request of the KKK the working languages are French and German between the two taskgrupen assigned to the 11th Squadron (provisional) and at the Liaison Kommandant.
6. That is all.
* Restricted areas off limits to this command are contained in secret appendices. Needless to say, if you are in New Swiss waters and Jack the Red attacks you, you are just out of luck...... ;)
Austrian ships in the Pacific AND the Arabian Sea? Two areas where Austria has absolutely no business being in? That is just asking for trouble...
Don't cry if I accidently mistake your ships for Italians. Especially, since the Swiss Fleet might NOT be heading towards Africa...
Quote
Austrian ships in the Pacific AND the Arabian Sea? Two areas where Austria has absolutely no business being in? That is just asking for trouble...
*ROTFLMAO*
WoW Kettle..... Pot.... Black.... *Nuff Said*
(http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/battleships/audacious/01_hms_audacious.jpg)
Don't bite off more than even you can chew, Foxy.
OOC
To keep all things in the same place.
The Habsburg vessels will follow the Dutch rules:
Quote1. Standing instructions are to come to the aid and rescue of any neutral shipping attacked by pirates in the covered patrol region. Under the 1919 Naval Law a non-belligerent NEUTRAL ship in International Waters that flashes the signal "RRR" when attacked by pirates will be assisted if time practicable.
2. In these troubled times of war, it is incumbent upon all civilized nations to remain true to International Law and recognized conventions against piracy, smuggling, and the slave trade.
Plus:
- Any ships approaching Habsburg warships closer than 3 nautical miles may be be fired upon without warning; The "may" becomes "will" when:
- no flag visible;
- no radio communication established;
- no reaction to flag and/or blinker signals;
Any of the above also increases the range of "fire at Captain's discretion" to that of visual flag communication.
The above ROE is not publicised, nor otherwise circulated. Only the relevant officers are privy to this.
"- Any unannounced ships approaching 11th Squadron warships closer than 6000 meters as measured by rangefinder or radiowaaierapparaat may be be fired upon without warning; The "may" becomes "will" when:
- no flag visible;
- no radio communication established;
- no reaction to flag and/or blinker signals;
Any of the above also increases the range of "fire at Captain's discretion" to that of visual flag communication, which depends on your optical fire control to see the enemy and visual identify him by his naval heraldry.
- The first shot will be a cross the bow shot warning. The next if needed will be for effect."
Kapitein ter Zee Ernedotte Zwilling finishes reading the orders to her liaison team.
"I expect that the Habsberg Kaiserreich taskgrupe has similar instructions. We are on a mission of peace, but we know that the situation here is now extremely grave. Use common sense and don't create incidents by exceeding the self-defense rules of engagement or their exact intent. Understand?"
====The above ROE is not publicised, nor otherwise circulated. Only the relevant officers are privy to this.
****To keep on the same page in this storyline, since Borys will run a lot of it for me.
Quote from: Borys on June 18, 2010, 02:28:13 AM
OOC
To keep all things in the same place.
The Habsburg vessels will follow etc. etc...
Why bother? Everyone knows Austria will eventually declare war on one of the parties. ;)
OOC
I'm tempted to bat my eyelashes at you in retribution for such a slur!
:D
Borys
MVB Sent in the clear
WAR WARNING all forces:
1. Be prepared for surprise attack,
2. Condition I in effect until situation is clarified in NOI area and New Zion areas.
3. All civil defense units are to mobilize and assume their defensive stations and REPORT violations of their defense observation zones by unauthorized traffic.
Coded message.
???????? ??? Majoor General ???????? van Seik ??? MVB. 1. ???????? ???????? ??????? ????? ???????????: ?. ? ?????????? ??????? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ?? 30 ?????? ???? ??? 20 ???? ??????????. ? ???????????? ????? ??? ???????? ??? 1905. ??? ????? ?????????? ?????? ??????, recon, ? motorization ???????. ??????????? ????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ?. ? ????????? ?????????? ????? ?????? ?? ????. ?? ???????? ????????????? ???? ???????? ??? ??????? ????????? ??????????????, ?? ?????? ????????? ??????? ?????????, ?? ??????? ?????? ??? ??????????? ???????????. ?? ??????? ????, ? ????? ????????, ????? ?????? ?? ??????????? ???? ????? ???????????? ??????? ????????. ????? ?????????? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???????????? ?????? ???. ?? ???????? ???? ?????? ????, ?? ???????, ????? ???? ??????????? ??? ????? ???. ? ??? ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ? ???????????? ???? artillery 2. ???????? ????????? ?????????? ???????????: ?. ? ???????? ????????? ??? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ???, ???????????. ?. ???????? ?? ???????? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? (???????? ????? ????????), ???? ? ????????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???????? ????????? ??? ??????????? ???? ??? ???????? ?? ???? ?????????????. ?. ?????? ?? ????????????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ?????????. ??? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ????????? ?? ??????????? ??????????? ????? ???????? ??????????? ?? ????? ??? ????????? ?????? ????????? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ?????????? (? ??? ?.) 2. ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????????. ?. ?? ???????? ??? ???????? ???????????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ???????? ??? ???????? ??????????. ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??????????? ???? ???????????. ?? ????????? ???????????? ?????? ?? ????????? ??? ?? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????????? ?? ????? ??? ????????. 3. ???????? ?????????? ???????????, ???????, ??? ???? ?????????. ?. ?? ???????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ???? ????????? ???, ???? ???????? ?????????? ???, ??? ???? ?????????? ??? ??????????? ?????????, ??? ??? ????? ???? ? ??????? ???. ?. ??????? ?? ????????? ???? ????? ??? ?????????. ?? ????? ??????????? ??? ???????? ?? ?? ????? ? ??????????? ???? ???. ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???????? ????????, ?? ?????????? ?? ?????? ?????????????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????????? ??????????? ????????? ??? ?? ??????????? ?????????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???. ?. ?? ???????? ??? ??????????????? ???? ???????? ?????????? ???????????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ????????????, ????????? ??? ? ???????? ???? ?????????? ??? ???????????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???. j. ???? ? ???????? ???????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ????? ????????? ?????? ? ?????????? ???????????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????????? ?? ?????? ????. ?. ???????????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????????? ??? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? ??? ?? ??????????????? ??? ???????? ???, ?? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ???????? ??? ????? thrice ????? ????????? ??????? ???? ??? ??????. 4. ?????????: ?. ??? ?? ???????? ?????????? ?? ??????????????? ???? ?????????? ???????????? ??????? ??? ??????????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ?????????? ????. ?. ??? ? ????? ??? ?????????????? ???????? ????????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ????????? ??. ?. ?????? ? ??????? ??????????? ???????????. ?. ??? ? ??????? ???????? ????????? ?? ???????? ?? ???????. ???. ??? ?? ????? ????????????? ??????????? ???.
A very questionable code. :)
Grim message, not much to smile about there. ::)
Foreign Languages don't work on this forum. Learned that the hard way when I tried to post my entire new article in Hebrew.... :)
Quote from: TexanCowboy on June 25, 2010, 09:25:22 AM
Foreign Languages don't work on this forum. Learned that the hard way when I tried to post my entire new article in Hebrew.... :)
KK got it in one, TC. You are right, too. but the intent was to send a message without someone being able to understand anything more than the emotional content, if they could tease it out.
D.
Ha! I could write in Cyrillic!
Borys
Yeah, sorry. The database is set up to use mysql's default character set (latin 1). So it supports a few non-ASCII 7 characters, like ö and ß, etc., but nothing fancier.
I suppose if I was feeling adventurous, I could try to change that, but it feels risky to me at this point, and if I did I'd certainly want to set aside a few hours in case something went horribly wrong and I had to restore the DB. This feels like it's not worth the time.
If ever we migrate the forum to some other host, or decide we need to upgrade it to SMF 2.0, I'd probalby try to convert the DB to UTF-8 or some other more internationalized character set in the process.
(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/9066/nversedutcharmoredcar3.th.jpg) (http://img413.imageshack.us/i/nversedutcharmoredcar3.jpg/)
Experimental...........................for now.
*snickers*... yes very experimental.... looks at the 3 Regiments of them mixed with some FT-17 varriations currently active in New Zion....
I think I have a color image of that Armored Car currently on my MSN Display Picture.
Bits from all over........
Nicholas van Rijn throws Anders Welsen bodily out of his office.
"Don't you dare come back here until that Kyrt Huergens incident is straightened out! Laughing stocks......we are the jokes of Europe!"
.........Welsen picks himself up from where he was tossed in the hallwayand dusts himself off. "If I had the funds, he wouldn't have opened that brothel!"
NvR: "Its not the brothel, you incompetent! That I expect of our more resourceful NRDN agents Its the fact that I heard of it, from the French ambassador. Huergens IS NOT an NRDN agent is he? He's an ambassador, and he was found out! Now clean your mess up!"
====================================================
Kolonel Geiner rubs the sweat out of his eyes. He's too old for all this hiking and marching. Not enough trucks. He must remember that a motorized force must have enough lorries.
He must have sweated three kilos off this past week just marching with these leger. In the background, the dust slowly settles as a line of peculiar machines halts. Again a vehicle's track has snapped on the rocks; and again the way is too narrow for the other vehicles to pass. There is some frantic activity as from the rear of the column, some mechanics from a hulpmiddelwagen rush up to try to fix the mobility casualty.
Geiner scans the hills looking for the "red team", to see if their horse cavalrie exploits this opportunity. Nothing.
An hour it takes to fix the machine, a whole hour wasted. Geiner writes in his little green book. There are more things he must remember when the experimental pantser brigade stands up. This column resumes its march under the hot sun. Already the infantrie ahead is on the objective. Men can out-march machinesjust like they out-march horses? Apparently yes, if the terrain is right.
===================================================
Majoor Generaal Albert van Seik long ago abandoned his dark green Landmacht uniform for the mustard browns and greens worn by the allies here. Ehere he is, it is almost midnight. A 100mm minengewerfer chuffs a dull POOMF: there is a delayed bang and then in the night sky a new star is born. It slowly descends under a reflected silk canopy. Generaal van Seik can now see the thousands of men who do, with brute labor what should have been done years ago with machines.
A small man in one of those mottled mustard colored uniforms runs up to him and shows him this:
(http://www.antiquefarmtools.info/USERIMAGES/002(3).JPG)
In a language, not Dutch, he says: "No good. It breaks too easy. We need better tools."
And more time it appears. Albert van Seik is only one man. There is so very much to do. "We will have steel tools soon, and machines to help, if the railroads get here.....in time."
=======================================================
Meanwhile: at the MVB Kommandant;
"Satan' s twee staarten! Look at this!"
For once the NRDN earns its pay.
Note passed to NvR, during a cabinet meeting.
The note reads.
Quote1. Herzog wants more Dutch chocolates.
2. van Seik says he needs more time and more equipment.
3. Huertgens is under house arrest.
4. Geiner sends his regards.
5. Hind sends his regards.
6. Fokker thanks you for the orders.
7. BRNO says it can't be done.
8. Anders Welsen arranged the shipment for van Seik.
9. The Egyptians have been contacted. They may exchange embassies.
10. We are IN.
NvR scribbles a reply.
Quote1. How much will this cost us?
2. Make do until more help arrives.
3. Bribe him loose. I need an ambassador, not a prisoner.
4. Tell Geiner he better learn from his experience. We will need it soon.
5. Tell Hind he better learn from his experience as well.
6. Tell Fokker to expedite. We have another order on top of this one.
7. Arrest the incompetent mismanaging BRNO and REPLACE him.
8. See if there are other suppliers.
9. Tell Welsen to pick this ambassador with extreme care.
10. Move on it, NOW.
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6780/nversedutchtank5.th.jpg) (http://img412.imageshack.us/i/nversedutchtank5.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Clankety, clankety....
Anders Welsen on the phone: "And just who supplied the New Zionists with poison gas shells and the minengewerfer to use them?"
Muffled voice on the other end.
Anders Welsen on the phone: "What do you mean you can't say? You can tell from the lies they print in their newspapers who supplied the gas and the specialists.......I don't care about that! Get proof. That is all this government needs right now, war criminals loose with poison gas allied with a terrorist regime. And get the French ambassador! I want to know if the rumor about a botched Nassau Alliance naval ambush is true? ......... No! I want his denial on the record if he denies it!.............................And get that deal finalized with the Bavarians!"
He slams the phone onto its cradle in disgust.
"What is the MVB doing with all the money if they can't even tell us what the !@#$%^&*() is going on?" he yells at the ceiling.
Anders Welsen's office.
The MVB agent puts on his hat and takes his umbrella and says in broken French, (He's a Walloon) :"That is what the MVB is doing with the money, Meister Minister Welsen. Agent 30 died to get those!"
Hercule storms out of the office as Anders Welsen looks at the photos.
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/673/nversejutlland.jpg)
Major Hind's report to the MVB
Report#5
1. NOI infantry need a new rifle. Our bolt action Mauser pattern rifle is not sufficient. A self loading carbine is preferred. Per Generaal van Seik the MK seems to have designed their own version of the Madsen self-loading rifle, which we have tested in carbine version and found suitable.
2. Uniforms made of cotton rot too quickly here. Likewise leather kit seems ill-suited to local conditions. Canvas in some form of rubberized or weatherized fabric is preferable.
3. The rifles we have could use all metal furniture as the woods we have for stocks also rot or split here. I am told once again from van Seik, that the MK are world leaders in this application.
4. The experimental sub-machine pistol jams. We think the magazine mis-aligns when shoved into the receiver;. We recommend that the main body of the sub-machine pistol where the ammunition feed is, be milled instead of stamped and riveted. This should correct feed tolerance. We are aware that cost is a concern, but a weapon that does not work is useless and a waste of riksdollars.
==========================================================
Kolonel Geiner's Report to the MVB
Report # 7
Siege of Eilat.
1. The Italians fight against the New Zionists in terrain highly beneficial to the NZ. defender. I questioned the Italian kommandant about this and they explained that they chose the best routes from maps they had for their armor and for their lorried infantry.
2. As instructed I checked both their armored cars and their light tanks. The armored cars seem more reliable then the light tanks but the terrain is murder on both of them. They do not have enough mechanics or spare parts. The Bavarians are right about this, we need to have robust logistics for our own pantser brigades
3. The Legion kommandant general who besieges Eilat demanded the surrender of the city, which was of course refused. I personally witnessed this demand under truce issued. The Italians then offered, and the Zionites accepted the evacuation of the Eilat civilian population during the standard agreed five day cease fire.
4. Six hours after the cease fire ended I had to quickly don my chemical suit, as the Zionites used chemical weapons minengewerfer (Chlorine and Phosgene) which blew back across the city in their artillery attack on the imperial legion. My Landmacht full body gear worked properly. Some of the Italian issued gas masks did not. They had some casualties. The wind shifted and blew much of the gas back into the Zionite trenches. As expected the tech and the doctrine used was that of our referent enemy. We need to redouble our own chemical warfare defense efforts.
5. Conclusions.....The Italians are determined to carry this siege through to reduction. I have seen the referent enemy in the New Zion lines, both as advisers and as participants.
===========================================================
End of reports
Poor guy, died getting the pics and they aren't even good.
1 and 2 are way to close to be anything other than Swiss taken, but the destroyer in 2 is definitely not Swiss. The sinking ship seems to be a cruiser. 3, those look like battleships and much to organized to be wartime.
Kolonel Geiner also needs new glasses. There are no Swiss in Eliat... yet.
Quote from: Desertfox on June 30, 2010, 10:30:37 PM
Poor guy, died getting the pics and they aren't even good.
The Queen Mary will stand in for the NS United States
Quote1 and 2 are way to close to be anything other than Swiss taken, but the destroyer in 2 is definitely not Swiss. The sinking ship seems to be a cruiser. 3, those look like battleships and much to organized to be wartime.
Jutland, Germans, after their torpedo attack. They will stand in for the storyline.
Jutland battle turn away, Germans, from their recon Zeppelin.
QuoteKolonel Geiner also needs new glasses. There are no Swiss in Eliat... yet.
Oh yes there are. The criminals are there.
QuoteThe Swiss arrive at Eliat on the morning of the 28th. The harbour is under heavy artillery fire by Italian troops, and has been partly damaged; hundreds of Swiss troops are killed or wounded as they disembark, and several of the requisitioned civilian ships are damaged or sunk. Through the night, Italian submarines sink another liner, an Osprey class cruiser, and a Saipan class destroyer. The next night, as the unloading continues, another Swiss liner and an M-1 type destroyer are also sunk in this target-rich environment.
It seems that the New Swiss not only are stage managing this entire New Zion War for their own piratical ends, but when caught in the act, continue to deny their warmongery and acts of aggression. ;) ;) ;)
That is really OOC information.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on July 01, 2010, 08:39:50 AM
That is really OOC information.
Specifically what?
Foxy already concedes that Agent 30 existed (and got the information and did the work), and as for Geiner, he's been with the Italians ever since he "disappeared" a while back.
More ships leave Amsterdam.
Per agreement with Italy, a Humanitarian mission will be sent by the Kingdom of Netherlands Immunological Society to aid the victims of the Cholera outbreak at Ashdod under the auspices of the Green Cross. Included in this Green Cross donation will be a shipment of medical supplies and a medical team. The aid departed from the NOI, 1 Sept and is expected to arrive at port of debarkment unload and to reach Ashdod, NLT 25-27 Sept.
As the threat of pirates and NS criminals who do not respect the Green Cross is well known, arrival at port will be announced when the freighter reaches it safe berthing.
Arrangements have been made with Italy to ensure that the shipment is met and sent forward via the quickest means available.
MVB Kommandamt: Den Hague.
Section K
Majoor Tofer Hsien: "Courier! I have a message to be delivered!"
The korporal takes the message and looks puzzled.
Majoor Tofer Hsien: "As the written cover instructions direct, take it direct to the First Minister and get his written reply!"
==============================================
NvR's office a half hour later.
He reads the message and burns it to dust. Then he writes his reply and adds a verbal instruction: "Tell Majoor Hsien that he is to wait on this answer; until we get our own reply. But when that reply comes, we will do what is necessary one way or the other."
==============================================
NRDN News Release:
Reports are circulating among the merchant marines of several nations that unidentified raiders are loose and attacking NASSAU and neutral shipping without regard to the rules of the rights of free navigation.
==============================================
NOI Red Line News Release:
One of our freighters is missing and reported overdue. We have no further information at this time.
==============================================
NRDN
Coded radio message..........
.--. ? .. .--. .-. .- ...- - . / ... . / -. .- / ...- ? .-.. -.- ..- .-.-.-
NOI Red Line News Release:
We are sad to announce today the loss of the KMM Piet Heim off of Nice today. Piet Heim was a 8282 GRT freighter liner that operated between Surabaya and Antwerp with scheduled passenger stops. The cause of the loss is not yet available to us. There were no as yet reported survivors among the 47 crew or 393 passengers.
A complete passenger list will appear in the Amsterdam World newspaper as soon as we can compile it, along with what else is known about the loss.
Partial Passenger List as it appears in the New Amsterdam World
* Abu Hakim
* Aburizal Basalm
* Abdur Wahid
* Adam Malik* Prominent chemist, industrialist and philanthropist who donated 1000 tons of medical supplies to the medical relief of his fellow people of Jewish faith in New Zion.
* Ahum Gumelar
* Agung Laks
* Agus Salimalsdo
* Akbar Tanjun
* Ali Alata
* Alvin Lie* prominent diplomat in the KoN foreign ministry
* Alwa Shihab
* Amien Rais " NOI French banker
* Amir Sjarifuddin
* Anton Apriantono * writer
* Assaat * writer
* Astrid Susanto
* Ateng Wahyudi *politician
* Azwar Anas
* Bachtiar Chamsyah * scientist
* Budiman Sudjatmiko
* Chaerul Saleh
* Dada Rosada * painter
* Dewa Made Beratha * politician
* Dipa Nusantara Aidit * chemist
* Djoko Suyanto
* Emil Salim * reform mullah
* Fahmi Idris
* Frans Tutuhatunewa * married couple sole survivors
* Ginandjar Kartasasmita
* H. S. Dillon * VERY VERY Prominent Rohan politician
* Hamengkubuwono IX * Malaysian Prince
* Hamzah Haz
* Hassan Wirajuda
* Hatta Rajasa
* Hidayat Nur Wahid * doctor with the Green Cross
* Irwandi Yusuf
* Ishak Effendi
* BJ Habibie * Financier
* Jusuf Kalla * founder of the Green Crescent
* Jusuf Wanandi (Liem Bian Kie) * boxer
* Juwono Sudarsono Hind * Majoor Hind's brother
* Kusmayanto Kadiman
* Kwik Kian Gie
* Malam Sambat Kaban
* Manuel Carrascalão
* Mari Pangestu
* Megawati Soekarnoputri
* Mohammad Hatta * mullah
* Muhammad Natsir * mullah
* Muhammad Nazar * mullah
* Muhammad Yamin * mullah
* Munir
* Musso
* Mustafa Abubakar * mullah
* Nabiel Makarim
* Omar Dhani
* Paku Alam VIII * NOI Malaysian prince.
* Poncke Princen
* Prabowo
* Rachmat Witoelar * backer of the Conservative Coalition
* Radius Prawiro
* Rasuna Said
* Ratu Atut Chosiyah * Friend of NvR
* Rizal Nurdin
* Rizal Ramli
* Ruslan Abdulgani
* Sam Ratulangi * politician
* Sitwa Tutuhatunewa * married couple sole survivors
* Soe Hok Gie * singer
* Soeharto
* Soenario
* Sri Mulyani Indrawati
* Sri Sultan Hamengk * inventor of Dutch 1912 fire control
* Sudharmono
* Sunaryati Hartono
* Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono
* Sutan Sjahrir " banker
* Sutiyoso
* Syahrir * mullah
* Tan Malaka
* Tarmizi Taher
* Try Sutrisno
* Umar Wirahadikusumah
* Wilopo * famous swimmer
* Wiranto
* Yusril Ihza Mahendra
Anders Welsen reads the partial passenger list in the Newspaper and he reads the first NRDN report on the loss. Officially the French say a grounding, but there were two survivors, who the French have incommunicado in hospital. The MVB was trying to reach and interview the two survivors to determine the true cause of the wreck. The NRDN had their own information courtesy of an unknown benefactor.
It was not a sandbar.
"De mest zal vliegen wanneer het Mohammedaanse Broederschap over dit te weten komt!"
And when van Rijn discovered WHO?
Anders Welsen is NOT a happy diplomat...
ooc : chock full of Mullahs, two couples claiming to be sole survivors, a pair of princes, the founder of the Green Crescent, prominant scientists and a top Rohan politician all on a small frieghter plying Dutch-Dutch routes? Also, at 5000GRT, there wouldn't be many staterooms suitable Perhaps a somewhat larger liner?
KMM Piet Heim built by D & W Schippe Amt Singapore,
Yard No 14
Last Name: Piet Heim
Previous Names: KMM Rashad Hamel, Peter Hoen
Propulsion: Twin screw Converted to oil burning in 1915
Launched: Saturday, 22/02/1902
Built: 1902
Ship Type: Passenger Cargo Vessel
Ship's Role: Surabaya - Antwerp and ports between service
Tonnage: 8282
Length: 485.5
Breadth: 56.3
Owner History:
NOI Red Lines
Status: Lost - 1919 off Nice
Remarks: High end subsidized freighter and government mails liner noted for luxury and convenience. Often used by the NOI elites as a holiday ship to go tramping on holiday because of its semi-official government status.
(http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/ships/1902/COLUMBIA_425.jpg)
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on July 08, 2010, 09:42:06 AM
ooc : chock full of Mullahs, two couples claiming to be sole survivors, a pair of princes, the founder of the Green Crescent, prominant scientists and a top Rohan politician all on a small frieghter plying Dutch-Dutch routes? Also, at 5000GRT, there wouldn't be many staterooms suitable Perhaps a somewhat larger liner?
Think Lusitania. This is a major scripted event.
Geiner looks at the horizon at the lines of marching prisoners. "Stupid. They are so stupid. They should have never started a war they could not win."
He crumples a piece of paper and tosses it away. He wipes the sweat from his brow and returns to the cluster of mechanics working on the Italian armored car.
He looks at their doings and snorts. Being cavalrie himself, he still wonders if more Italian horse might have made more sense in this gebergsjager country than all the armored cars? Of course Holland didn't have any use for mountain troops in her problem set, not really, but then he was supposed to check on what Holland did need and what he could learn. And he had determined, at last, that yes armored cars could pass through rough country and act as chasseurs even if the country was nothing like the polders and jungles where he was trained.
===========================================
Albert van Seik reads by firelight the latest efforts by the NvR government. He snorts in derision.
Quote"Do the best you can. We have the Piet Heim incident to sort with as yet unknown repercussions."
The radio network built at such cost to the KoN has its uses. Without it and the cabler, he would be in the dark as to what those fools in Amsterdam did. For the moment though all he cared about was that another convoy had arrived at Dalian.
A Mandarin comes and sits besides him.
"Don't sit too close to the fire." van Seik warns him in German.
The Mandarin takes out a cigarette, lights it on the fire and sits back against a convenient rock. "Silk doesn't catch fire that easily as cotton does." He puffs on the cigarette. Generaal van Seik smells the cannabis in the smoke as the man exhales. The Mandarin waves the smoke away and gets up to leave. He says to van Seik before he leaves: "The negotiations are going in circles. They will not listen. We make one last attempt and then we are through with this."
=================================================
In NvR office the disheveled First Minister, who has not slept in three days, reads.
QuoteAccording to the two survivors (see enclosed statements Appendix 2) the Piet Heim hit something that detonated and penetrated her starboard side amidships. Her keel was shattered and the damage and inflood was so extensive that she immediately listed and began to roll beam over in less than ninety seconds. The only reason the witnesses survived was because they were thrown clear of the promenade deck and found flotation debris also flung from the ship by her violent roll to starboard..
..The very few survivors in the water died mainly due to sharks and lack of flotation gear. Few passengers were quickly thrown into water, many went down when the ship sucked them under, and many drowned still in their beds and state rooms. The others drowned due a large number of causes. (See appendix four for new safety recommendations)..
..Pending the dive surveys we believe an explosive contact mine array, known as a "Devil's Necklace" was the likely instrument that caused the Piet Heim's loss. To our knowledge only four nations use such technology...
Interesting. New Zion did not usually use such devices, but four other nations including the New Swiss could and did? How did the MVB know that? NvR would have to ask. But he certainly could not let that news get out, as he tried to quell the wild rumors rampant in the Dutch press of a planned assassination attack on a huge chunk of the NOI elite, prior to a war of presumed conquest by some unnamed aggressor. The Moslem Brotherhood was screaming for vengeance and preemptive war against this "aggressor". Not a good political situation for NvR's coalition with the dangerous states of affairs in the Indian Ocean that he knew existed right now.
NvR srill hoped some negotiation could succeed, but at the moment his hands were tied. It was up to others to solve New Zion and the other problems that those !@#$%^&*() criminal aggressor fools caused with their obstinacy now. He just knew that he did all that he could do to prevent what was happening prior and during this chaos, and now it, the peace, was just falling apart past repair.
He had to do something about that, post the New Zion war.
QuoteThe Moslem Brotherhood was screaming for vengeance and preemptive war against this "aggressor".
It could not have been the Swiss then, and most definitely not the Zionites. The investigators would do well to look at the countries of the last crusade...
QuoteIt could not have been the Swiss then, and most definitely not the Zionites. The investigators would do well to look at the countries of the last crusade...
Blood for the Blood God anyone? :)
Sorry to say something that could be seen as racism. But I don't believe muslims that cry out for mindless vengange are the moderates. Nor do I ascribe common sence to those non moderate muslim people.
QuoteIt could not have been the Swiss then, and most definitely not the Zionites. The investigators would do well to look at the countries of the last crusade...
10.5 hours and counting..........
Quote from: maddox on July 09, 2010, 11:14:05 AM
Sorry to say something that could be seen as racism. But I don't believe muslims that cry out for mindless vengange are the moderates. Nor do I ascribe common sence to those non moderate muslim people.
http://www.vincelewis.net/lusitania.html
QuoteOutrage
'America did not declare war on Germany over this incident, but the sinking of the Lusitania certainly contributed to the feelings of animosity toward Germany by the American public as it was seen as a total outrage and cowardly act."
"Posters soon appeared after the sinking requesting that people should join the armed services and prepare to avenge those that died. A call to arms against the German Empire was rife amongst the populace and the feelings of hatred for Germany ran high."
Like if anyone needed any more excuses to declare war on the Swiss. If you go ahead and use Muslim outrage as THE excuse to declare war on the Swiss, I will be seriously annoyed OOC. There are plenty of nations that hate Muslims (specially the CSA...why again?), New Switzerland is NOT one of them, and New Zion is a friend and near ally of the Muslims.
This is the NOI that had a lot of their prominents killed. The Moslem Brotherhood (Nverse version) is a political party in the KoN.
10 hours.
Lame excuse... and forget the timer, I can not do something that is physically impossibly, so not even going to bother responding to the PM.
Quote from: Desertfox on July 09, 2010, 11:53:29 AM
Lame excuse... and forget the timer, I can not do something that is physically impossibly, so not even going to bother responding to the PM.
5 hours.
Two hours.
"Play ball."
BRNO proving ground, Namur.
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5231/nverseaaagon.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/nverseaaagon.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
braaat...., braaat...., braaat...., braaat...., braaat...., braaat...., braaat...., CHONG.
One engineer : "!@#$%^&*()!"
Another engineer: " We need....."
The one engineer: "I know WHO we need, but SHE drowned on the Piet Heim! Just FIX this!"
(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9505/snecklace.th.jpg) (http://img685.imageshack.us/i/snecklace.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
These mines are HARD to clear.
Kyrt Huergens, cools his heels, under "house arrest". His new "best friend", Senor Vincente Wencel, pops in to see what the KoN ambassador "needs".
Senor Wencel: "Lolita says hello."
Meister Huergens: "Any news?"
Senor Wencel: New Zion is muerto. They just haven't figured it out yet. Crazy Zionistas. Some ship sank off Nice, France and its caused a minor uproar. You are still under investigation for running a brothel. What else is there?"
Meister Huergens: "I did not run a brothel!"
Senor Wencel: "What else do you call it, when you hire a house full of women and rent the use..."
Meister Huergens: " What about the ship?"
Senor Wencel: " Some Dutch ship, the Piet Heim, sank. Lots of big shots drowned. Big scandal about no safety gear or escape procedures has your country excited. No big thing."
Meister Huergens: "The Piet Heim! How did it sink?
Senor Wencel: "Well the rumors are...."
QuoteNew Zion did not usually use such devices, but four other nations including the New Swiss could and did?
Hmmm... Not sure what 4 nations you are referring to, but considering the mine warfare tech level of the Swiss (which you specifically mentioned), I think you can scrap the '4 nations' bit. It's easy for pretty much
every nation around to use them (as many nations have the 1908 tech like the Swiss),
including the Dutch themselves. *hides in foxhole*
*Smiles at the Walter*... so jumping in to support the New Swiss in their Foxy Hole... ;D
*quickly* hide 1908 minewarfare tech behind *italia'* back.
Charles
*kicks the Swiss out of his foxhole and into the killing fields*
The devil's necklace is a daisy chain float mine array. Four nations are known to use it.
How many can make it? Not specified.
I didn't even know I had that sweet weapon. Nice!
So the Dutch know something about the Swiss that the Swiss didn't even know...
... Interesting. :)
Well...the NRDN is thorough, and you need to read the story line.
D.
Quote from: Desertfox on July 11, 2010, 10:46:12 AM
I didn't even know I had that sweet weapon. Nice!
Look around NS and ask yourself this question,
who is out to get you and why? Since you also didn't think of this crack the whip mine concept and I did, you should ask yourself again where I got that from and why?
D. ;D ;D ;D
Who is out to get you?
Everyone and their grandmothers
Why?
Cause the Swiss are so evil even the devil is afraid of them
Hmmmmm.
Who is afraid of the New Swiss? [crickets]
And who wants to get them? [everybody because of this.]
(http://rlv.zcache.com/bullseye_on_your_back_tshirt-p235350790501820259obr7_400.jpg)
Coded message.
...- . .-. --- --- .-. --.. .- .- -.- / -. .. . - / -.. . / ..-. .-. .- -. ... . -.
BRNO proving ground, Namur.
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5231/nverseaaagon.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/nverseaaagon.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
pom, pom, pom, pom.
pom, pom, pom, pom.
pom, pom, pom, pom.
pom, pom, pom, pom.
One engineer: "It works!"
The other engineer: "So what? We can't aim it for struddel rolls."
The one engineer: "We solve that next."
The other engineer: "Well, you know what that will take. We might have the directors by 1928 if we are lucky. Until then we just have another fancy anti-zeppelin gun."
Konter Admiraal Schoepen counts the costs of Fleet Problem IV. A minesweeper gone, Some other incidental damage, most locally repairable. The Swiss fled long before he got here, exactly as he expected when he warned NvR that this was a useless operation that would just damage ships to no purpose.
Nevertheless, Sur Masirah is now in Dutch hands as is the entire island. His Marine commander brigadeer generaal Ditawah Ahmed's combat pioneers have their orders, and he has his.
The place, though it cost too much, is too valuable to allow a New Swiss pirate base to exist.
And he has work to do.
======================================================
NvR reads the reports from Masiirah. His face is grim.
The New Swiss escaped the Rift, !@#$%^&*()!
"Anders!" he roars. "Get in here!"
Together, they craft a series of cables to handle this debacle.
======================================================
Brigadeer generall Ditawah Ahmed's combat pioneers do indeed have their orders. General Ahmed opens a tent flap and looks at their work.
The place has to be rebuilt. The New Swiss blew it all up. The NS garrison commander far exceeded his already criminal orders to destroy civilian infrastructure, as well as military facilities, and tried to render the island uninhabitable. Fortunately he was incompetent. Still this is a war crime to the Dutch military, as far as they are concerned.
Civilians, his troops find ,wandering the countryside who have no food, no shelter, or potable water. Poisoned wells, dynamited villages, houses razed, slaughtered live stock and such are the reasons...
Ahmed's pioneers are ready for this. The Dutch military is very well prepared for major natural disasters in the NOI, and the same training and equipment they use there, work here. Odd that he, Generaal Ahmed, is more concerned with providing shelter and getting food and water for 12,000 civilian locals who have none, than with killing the devils who did this crime ten days ago. Once the KM can safe the waters, the Masirans can be fed from their own fishing fleet. Of course that has to be rebuilt too. The criminal New Swiss burned the dhows. The Dutch already have plans for this, well in hand. Oman is next door and they have boats, and they allowed this crime...
Generaal Ahmed has the press reporter pool very busy doing interviews and taking pictures everywhere. Soon the world will know just what kind of gentle occupiers the New Swiss truly are...
Quote
From MVB Agent 1126 Transcript obtained via Operation Amoeba
QuoteHong Kong Naval Operations Base
"We have received reports and evidence of the great use of submarines in an offensive and defensive naval war."
[Some looked surprised, the submarine had been neglected mostly by the Republic beyond a few large and somewhat experimental vessels. It had faovred the use of torpedo boats and MTB over the submarine. Admiral Chan Chak's aid who followed closely behind him dropped a package of files onto a desk next to him. The admiral tipped his hat before leaving, there were fleet exercises to conduct and cadets to train after all. The head of the Operations Base picked up the package and readied a meeting to discuss its contents...]
The package also contained informed that aircraft had sunk a few vessels at sea as well during the New Coalition (New Zion, New Swiss) - Allied (Italy, DKB) War. This was interesting to say the least and favorable for the Republic for it had constructed quite a few Torpedo Bombers (though relatively ineffective) as an experiment and to keep the aircraft factories in good shape.
Air power was most certainly becoming more important. Having air superiority, it was concluded, would allow the sighting , strafing, and bombing of enemy forces whilst keeping the rear movements of the Republican forces hidden.
Bombing at-level was not as effective as the use of torpedo bombers against enemy ships, though the art of torpedo bombing remained relatively imperfect. The Air force had already experimented with the possibility of Dive Bombing, but it was determined that until stronger materials for plane construction were available, the mission was to risky to risk losing a valuable pilot. The problem of the plane coming close to disintegrating during the dive was yet to be solved though the main problem, the rapid acceleration of the plane and the heavy stress onto the plane pulling out of a dive, had been identified.
Information indicated the main deterrent to torpedo bombing naval ships other than the high dud rates was the heavy antiaircraft weapons encountered on naval ships (it was as though the the navies of the world expected an aerial torpedo attack on their ships). The comfort was knowing that Imperialist ships lacked such devices and the relative inaccuracy of said weapons.
Still the navy put on express the need for a heavy fire low caliber airplane shredder weapon for use on naval ships. It was strange that a nation well versed in such aerial weapons would neglect to safeguard against them as well.
The Swarm doctrine was also proven, though heavy losses only confirmed the theory against swarm doctrines. The existence of destroyer and torpedo boat killers like the Yu-class were the confirmation of the theory. Fortunately the imperialist side lacked such weapons.
Much of the package contained with regards to aerial bombings and swarm assaults were predicted by the navy, but evidence was always welcome in convincing the more conservative elements within the navy.
Of course the ability to drop such weapons as the torpedo and carpet bomb naval forces as well as the effective use of mines as a deterrent force (although expensive and unfavorable to political favor) led to the question to the idea by the more liberal minds in the Air Force (which accounted most of the Airforce being that the Airforce itself was relatively new and not entrenched in doctrine) thought of aerial dropped mines. Such a weapon would eliminate the need for minelayers, an item that the Republic was not as plentiful in.
The package was good information, and Agent 057 had properly done his job.
The MVB analyst noted hos own observations about this intelligence. His notes were as usual encrypted:
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****
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"Courier! Forward this to the NRDN." He sealed it in a burn trap bag and addressed it.
The courier asked, "Why the NRDN?"
Analyst, "They will make sure the right persons get that."
The analyst then added another name to the enemy agent "disappear list".
Wow! Yet another setup... The Dutch must be truly evil to bring such suffering to the population just to blame the Swiss.
Quote from: Desertfox on July 14, 2010, 08:13:10 AM
Wow! Yet another setup... The Dutch must be truly evil to bring such suffering to the population just to blame the Swiss.
(http://a.imageshack.us/img819/2951/article116325903e9e7f20.jpg)
(http://a.imageshack.us/img707/3286/1792337afchild7.jpg)
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg51/scaled.php?tn=0&server=51&filename=civilianskilledbyusingo.jpg&res=landing)
(http://a.imageshack.us/img51/8199/20090408war20crime.jpg)
First photos...
Again, did you properly gain the information through espionage as per Mods dictate? Unless that was done, I will properly ignore your post.
That's really turning SIC information to IC information with no basis and unfounded, Damocles.
What transcript? There was no transcript. And I seriously doubt the ability of your "agents" to report when practically under Marital Law, not to mention a widespread secret police against such spying.
The Mods have not noted attrocities to have taken place on Masirah, but on the same token we have not acknowledged that they did not take place either.
As such this is purely a role-playing opportunity. Those in many nations will likely take note of the cynical track record of the Dutch and ignore these claims. Others may choose to attempt to independently confirm them. If that happens, the Mods will deal with that question appropriately. Still others may choose to accept the claims at face value. All these choices are up to individual players.
Some comments.
1. Don't publish if you want to keep it secret. The MVB will get it and use it.
2. Martial law is no security at all.
3. The Mods have not said no to me when I did this before and you published information. Fair game is fair game.
Henceforth I would appreciate it if you could do OOC complaints in the meeting room, please?
=======================================================
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f6a_1258939901
Standin for the Masirah Zarapan village atrocity video. An actual atrocity of the time period as we will see it many years later. New Zealand subs for the New Swiiss and a Palestinean village subs for Masirah's Zarapan Village Massacre.
We can use the same basic true story as the basis for this deliberate massacre.
D.
Note: For some strange reason the KoN make sure that spies that the NRDN would usually insulate get this information. In particular the Iberians, French, and Italians find it less difficult than usual to get it, which means they had to sweat for it.
NvR's townhouse in Antwerp
Anders Welsen: "We were called on the carpet for Fleet Problem IV."
NvR: "THAT was to be expected after YOU bungled the French contact I told you to make."
Anders Welsen: "I tried."
NvR: "And failed me again."
Anders Welsen: "It was not possible."
NvR: "Well it surprised Admiraal Schoepen when the allies showed up, the Ottoman traitors played their expected treachery, and you failed to plant the spadework to let the allies know we were there for the Masirah base and not Aden. I remind you, Anders, that the the whole point of that part of the plan, was to let the Ottoman New Swiss factions play their game and 'take us for fools' so the NRDN could let the Sultan know who those Ottoman traitors were!"
Anders Welsen: "Did that succeed?"
NvR: "Almost, but not quite. We have to develop it before we can name the Ottoman traitors. Instead the Ottomans will now make a political show of it to mollify us. Its not us they fear anyway. Its the Habsbergs. Incidentally I want to thank you for angering the Stadthalder for that mess, too."
Anders Welsen: "What do you mean?"
NvR: "Kaiser Stephan bought into Wilhemina's pet project to establish peace patrols."
Anders Welsen: "But I thought that was a joke!"
NvR splutters: "You thought that was a joke?" He looks around. "I could have you imprisoned for that defamation of the Stadthalder, Anders! Watch your tongue. It was a chance to win a friend that you muffed."
Anders Welsen: "But Masirah was your idea!"
NvR: "Not exactly, Anders, but its necessity became obvious once that other matter came up."
Anders Welsen: "Speaking of Masirah, what about the atrocities?"
NvR: "Drop it. Nobody cares. The New Swiss will escape with yet another unreported ignored war-crime, those sanctimonious inhuman.."
Anders Welsen, who knew about what happened to NvRs family in the Siam War says nothing except: "Its dropped."
NvR: "We need to tell the Italians the truth at least."
Anders Welsen: "Are you going to relieve Admiraal Schoepen?"
NvR: "No."
Anders Welsen: "Why not? He failed to trap the NS garrison!"
NvR: "Not his fault. He warned me that the New Swiss would scoot and that the Ottomans would do what they did. I told him to follow through anyway, and I told him why it was necessary to do so; to flush the Sultan's enemies out. Schoepen succeeded in his objectives in spite of YOUR failures."
Anders Welsen: "Am I to be the sacrificial lamb?"
NvR: "What do you think?"
Anders Welsen: "You can have my resignation!"
NvR: "We'll see if and when it is necessary. I have not decided on that, yet."
(Scripted and per info from Desert Fox.) This too will be leaked to the French, Italians, and Iberians via "tame rabbits*".
MVB Intelligence report # 21, Masirah.
Analyst 123:
QuoteNot even the commander of the garrison knew the actual Swiss plan. All the secret stuff they left there is just a bunch of bluffs and counter bluffs and random military plans with no pattern to them.
NvR reads this and nods. It was an outpost, a fuel dump, not even developed enough for its true purpose yet.
Quote...there might be some information here, that we need to check, the Swiss have been talking to the Ottomans, and it appears that they knew from the Ottomans, what Fleet Problem IV's real plan was, in far too much detail.
NvR knows more than the analyst does about that well crafted attempt to sow dissension. Typical asymmetric spy craft. Sow dissension and create confusion. Make it appear that there is collusion when there is none...
QuotePlus we have concrete evidence now that the Swiss were using the Zionite war as a cover to attack the KoN...probably using Masirah as the bait and the sacrifice and the Ottoman traitors in the Sultan's inner circle to get the Allies involved to start a general war in the Indian Ocean so that they would have a free hand in the NOI with the other half of their fleet.
In this their treachery was triple edged. They would sortie their fleet as bait, swan it around in the Rift to lure the allies one way, use the Ottoman traitors to arrange a feint with us as the patsy to pull the allies the other way and escape "the trap", and then get the allies and us involved in a shooting war that we Dutch would inevitably lose, and then the NS would snap up the now defenseless NOI in the chaos with unintended or intended Allied help in the Indian Ocean confusion...
NvR sifted through the appendixes, noted the Zarapan Village Incident, and read what little that the NRDN recovered and deciphered. Most of it was the usual NS deceptions. They never told their local commanders the total plan. You had to tease it out of seemingly insane actions often separated by thousands of kilometers and crazy instructions that the NS coimmanders obeyed blindly.
Funny it should be that the NS were quite content to prop up a distant ally and stage a long shot sortie gamble to try to leverage distant enemies into fighting each other, so that the cackling gnomes in Phoenix could snap up the much nearer target with local forces, while their leveraged enemies did the heavy lifting for them?
New Zion and Oman were sacrificed on the altar of New Swiss imperialist ambition.
NvR had not seen it. Admiraal Schoepen had to explain it to him, when the little Lichtensteiner laid it out in black and white. A letter to the Ottoman Sultan quickly confirmed it, surrounded as he was by sycophants and New Swiss bought traitors who conspired for NS money, and it was complete in front of NvR.
Now here were two actual letters stating when TG-16 would arrive and what the Masirah garrison commander was to do when he received the first Ottoman signal. Getting out from under the French as he was instructed was child's play for the NS commander with these instructions. Abandon the works under the modern version of the smoking campfires and put to sea in driblets in native craft disguised as Arab fishermen. The evacuation would never be noticed. The garrison would be picked up by NS ships that fled the Rift or would rendezvous mid-Indian Ocean with disguised NS raider freighters returning from their own sorties and they would sail home that way.
"That explains the burned Masirah fishing fleet, and why the Omanis are short of boats and all those damned minefields." mutters van Rijn. " The NS did not want Masirans to come out and tell anyone what was going on in their island for that first and second week in September. Trouble is that no one would believe such a crazy convoluted plan based on a sacrifice gambit of the obsolete half of the NS fleet and of abandonment and misuse of two supposed minor and one major allies!"
Simply incredible! And yet it fit the NS strategic M.O. perfectly; misdirection, perfidy, and treachery all wrapped up in a smile.
And if not for a cautious French admiraal and a reluctant but very shrewd Dutch admiraal, the New Swiss plan might just have worked.
"Anders!" NvR shouts, "We have letters to send to the Ottomans!"
Anders Wellsen: "What now? Its 2 in the morning!"
NvR: "Write what I tell you."
Anders Wellsen, more or less reduced to a stenographer now writes.
* tame rabbit=MVBese for a known enemy agent.
:)
Swiss evilness knows no bounds...
*falls off his chair laughing spewing my drink*
Damn...
Bravo both of you. Very nicely done. I think I sometimes forget that under all the randomness Fox usually HAS a plan.
(Scripted with CTwaterman's help.) In Rome, the NRDN draws a blank.
Agent #61 sits with agent #454. The lipreader, #61, eats a late lunch. He is disgusted that the rooms he chose with a view directly in the foreign minister's office are actually the secret offices of the Rome Metropolitan Police Detective Agency!
The two NRDN agents, stuck outside their target, by accident, are present at a conversation at another nearby outdoor cafe table and the lip reader reads what follows just out of habit and training.
It is a whispered conversation between two secretaries gossiping over wine and peta...
=================================================
One secretary: "Did you hear what happened today? Consul Sextus called in the Dutch and Ottoman ambassadors to request formal explanations for some battle that took place in Africa."
The other secretary: "Yes I did. I also heard that the Consul is meeting with the Hapsburg ambassador to discuss the legal standing of those pirates who raided Brindisi last week. "
First secretary: "Really? I thought it had something to do with the Commander of the Praetorian Guard coming to see the minister yesterday. He was most insistent that a formal explanation be received for something. He obviously wanted to check on it."
The first secretary: "I heard that the Guard has all those pirates locked away somewhere questioning them, just like those pirates who raided San Marino earlier this year."
Other secretary: "Oh that was horrible, but no where near as many as were killed at Brindisi? But I heard that someone over in the Forum was saying the pirates were all New Switzerland's fault?"
The first secretary: "Really? I hadn't heard that. But did you hear that Rita was seeing the Captain from the Marina... Huh"
The gossip moves on to men at that point.
=================================================
The lipreader memorizes what he heard. Nothing he collects about the Ottomans at all as he was tasked to collect, but something about Brindisi, that the Italians had been somewhat secretive about..
Why were the Habsbergs involved in that mess, and how did that tie in with the New Swiss angle? The common intel about Brindisi was that those were New Zion bought and paid for pirates out of the Balkans. Hired Condottieri in the Roman usage.
It actually makes no sense.
=================================================
So #61 asks #454 the obvious question as soon as they are somewhere safe to talk and he repeats the conversation for encrypted transcription: "What do you think?"
# 454: "I think you have pure garbage there, and that is not what we were supposed to harvest. Plan B?"
#61: "No, we get out now. Things are too hot to try for any more."
# 454: "Then we failed?"
# 61: "Actually I think we did find something. I just don't know what."
Admiraal Schoepen's Report to the MVB.
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9572/nversefleetproblemiv.jpg)
The text:
? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / -- .- ... .. .-. .- .... .-.-.- / .---- .-.-.- / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / .--- .- -- -- . .-. / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? --..-- / ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / .-..-. / .- .-.. .-.. .. . ... .-..-. .-.-.- / ..--- .-.-.- / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / -.- --- .--. -- -- .- -. -.. .- -- - / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? -....- ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --..-- / ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / .-..-. / .- .-.. .-.. .. . ... .-..-. / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --..-- / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / ...-- .-.-.- / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / -.- --- -- -- .- -. -.. .- -- - / ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? / -- ...- -... / ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / -.- -- .-.-.- / ....- .-.-.- / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / .-. .. -.- ... ..-. .-.. --- - - . -.- --- -- -- .- -. -.. .- -- - / -.--.- .-. ..-. -.- .- / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? --..-- / ? ? ? ? ? ? --..-- / ? / ...- ..- .-.. -... . .-. .- -... .-.. . --..-- / ? 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? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / -.. -.- -... / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? / .-- .- ... -. .----. / - / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --..-- / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / -.... .-.-.- / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / --... .-.-.- / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --..-- / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? --..-- / ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? --..-- / ? / ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ---... / --... .-.-.- / .- .-.-.- / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / -... .-.-.- / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ... .... .. .--. -....- .-.. .- ..- -. -.-. .... . -.. / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / -.-. .-.-.- / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / -.. .-.-.- / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / -.. .-.-.- / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? / ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / ? ? ? ? ? / ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .-.-.- / .- -.. -- .. .-. .- .- .-.. / ... -.-. .... --- . .--. . -.
D.
Per discussion with Sechmle (and thanks)
(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/7889/nversems1experiment.jpg)
As I see it, 1922 tech required.
Quote from: Walter on July 18, 2010, 08:29:53 AM
As I see it, 1922 tech required.
Yes, Walter's probably right. I apologize, I was not descriptive enough last night (was falling asleep). Perhaps instead of bending the stacks off you can leave them alone and erect a small wheelhouse and radio room forward of them. This would then break up you deck, leaving the required separate take off and landing decks, ala Furious after her first conversion. That would be the only real issue, as she does not have arrester wires, or even catapults as far as I can tell. Perhaps, since she lacks these other amenities, she could be allowed as is? It is only a wooden deck w/ no take off or landing assistance devices. Langley was certainly in this time frame, and looked rather similar.
QuotePerhaps instead of bending the stacks off you can leave them alone and erect a small wheelhouse and radio room forward of them. This would then break up you deck, leaving the required separate take off and landing decks, ala Furious after her first conversion.
That would require the 1918 tech and since it is modified for experiments in 1919, I doubt that that is available as well to the Dutch...
Quote from: Walter on July 18, 2010, 08:29:53 AM
As I see it, 1922 tech required.
I think Sechmle answers this question rather well. As I understand it, the key word here is "separate". Why that distinction exists in 1919 really bothers me a lot as it seems to make no sense at all even with the British conversions.
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/hms_furious.htm
Certainly this design is more primitive than the Langley and even more primitive than all the crazy balloon tenders that run around loose now.
That ship is part of the 1918 research, Walter. Can't test takeoffs from a ship without a ship? :)
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3240/nversems1experiment2.jpg)
QuoteAircraft/Seaplane Carriers
1910: experimental aviation ships; automatically granted upon completion of the 1910 Aircraft (1914 models) tech.
1915: floatplanes; flying-off decks for wheeled aircraft
1918: gunpowder catapults for floatplanes; separate landing and taking-off decks for wheeled aircraft
1922: hydraulic catapults; full length decks for wheeled aircraft; arrestor wires
1926: armored box carrier
So what exactly qualifies as the 1910: experimental avaiation ships?
It can't have a flying off deck, because that requires the 1915 tech. I suppose it could have just a landing deck and the planes could take off from land, but why would anyone want a ship that can only land planes? Is it basically a floatplane tender? No, cuz floatplanes require the 1915 tech too. So what is a 1910 experimental aviation ship? The only thing it seems it could be is a zeppelin tender like the ones Gran Columbia builds.
The point I'm trying to make is that, much like OTL Langley, Wolverine, and Sable (all had full decks, some even had arrester wires later) were not "Fleet Units" and could not be used in combat due mostly to low speed and limited space. This ship, as pictured, would certainly be in the same boat. She's only 16.64kts max, probably 16kts in practice, if not slower since it still has the original 1890 VTE engines. There is no crew space below deck so it can't even be out for more than 16-20hrs. She's a harbor queen. How much more "experimental" can you get?
QuoteThat ship is part of the 1918 research, Walter. Can't test takeoffs from a ship without a ship?
Unfortunately I do not make the rules, otherwise we would already have the possibility of building Langley type carriers. :)
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=79.msg1127#msg1127
QuoteREMEMBER - TECHNOLOGY BECOMES AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST HALF YEAR AFTER SUCCESS IN RESEARCH (OR COMPLETING DIGESTION)
Which means you need the tech researched
before you can (re)build a ship in that manner.
QuoteSo what exactly qualifies as the 1910: experimental avaiation ships?
I would like to know that as well. No doubt those who made that rule can explain. Whatever it is, it is something you can build without needing any of the things you'd get with the other tech levels.
Moderators; HELP! Is this thing legal?
1910: experimental aviation ships; automatically granted upon completion of the 1910 Aircraft (1914 models) tech.
-->HMS Hermes (the old cruiser)
1915: floatplanes; flying-off decks for wheeled aircraft
-->British packet conversions; HMS Furious as completed; Ark Royal (collier/grain carrier conversion); HMS Campania
1918: gunpowder catapults for floatplanes; separate landing and taking-off decks for wheeled aircraft
-->HMS Furious as first modified; HMS Vindictive as modified
1922: hydraulic catapults; full length decks for wheeled aircraft; arrestor wires
-->Argus, Hosho, Langley, Washington Treaty conversions, etc
1926: armored box carrier
-->Illustrious, etc
What Damocles is proposing looks to be a 1918 tech ship, which of course requires that the 1918 tech be completed before the work begins.
The First experimental ships were Cruisers with a wooden platform for taking off laid over the top to the turretes, and stuff like that.
You could get planes to land on them because the speed of the early test planes was so slow that if the ship was moving away from
the Plane at 25Knots the plane is not doing much more then 30 or 40 knots....
So if said target ship simply had a ramp forward for launching it would be kosher?
Quote from: Sachmle on July 18, 2010, 09:50:45 AM
So if said target ship simply had a ramp forward for launching it would be kosher?
That is a good question. Its idiotic engineering because now we have to assume that the 1919 engineers who would do this 1918 experiment that way are complete idiots given that the planes available are now 90 mph cruise and at least 45 mph takeoff, and need 150 foot takeoff runs but it seems to fit the 1910 rules?
:( :( :(
If the Dutch have the tech to do something more advanced - which they do, as they have the 1915 tech - their first ship can be built to that tech.
A general reminder for all: In the absence of our historical WW1, with the RN's intense-by-our-standards naval aviation program in that time, we agreed that CV tech would, in general, lag behind historical accomplishments. Pointing to an Argus or Hosho's historical lay-down date is meaningless as a result. Our tech is not perfectly in synch with historical tech.
New plan!
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/4290/nversems1experiment3.jpg)
We start with this in 1919.
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3240/nversems1experiment2.jpg)
After some plane crashes into the pilot house, we do this.
(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/7889/nversems1experiment.jpg)
After some plane crashes into the funnels, we do this.
Now that contraption will get me to the Vodan which will be next.
Note.... to self. After this line of development, this should mean I don't see a full fledged aircraft carrier from anyone before 1925!
D.
QuoteAfter this line of development, this should mean I don't see a full fledged aircraft carrier from anyone before 1925!
Correct. You can't. For a full fledged fleet unit carrier you need 1922: hydraulic catapults; full length decks for wheeled aircraft; arrestor wires. At a MINIMUM of 4HY(20% Success roll) it would be 2HY/1924 before anyone could COMPLETE the Tech, and 1HY/1925 before you could lay down a ship. Figure at least 10,000t for a CV, 8,000 for a decent CVL, 6,000 for a crappy CVE, and it's July 1926 (CV), May 1926 (CVL), or March 1926 (CVE) before they're finished. 3 months for shakedown means Oct (CV), Aug (CVL), June (CVE) 1926 before they in service. So no CV battles until 2HY/1926 at least. ;)
Quote from: Sachmle on July 18, 2010, 10:58:26 AM
QuoteAfter this line of development, this should mean I don't see a full fledged aircraft carrier from anyone before 1925!
Correct. You can't. For a full fledged fleet unit carrier you need 1922: hydraulic catapults; full length decks for wheeled aircraft; arrestor wires. At a MINIMUM of 4HY(20% Success roll) it would be 2HY/1924 before anyone could COMPLETE the Tech, and 1HY/1925 before you could lay down a ship. Figure at least 10,000t for a CV, 8,000 for a decent CVL, 6,000 for a crappy CVE, and it's July 1926 (CV), May 1926 (CVL), or March 1926 (CVE) before they're finished. 3 months for shakedown means Oct (CV), Aug (CVL), June (CVE) 1926 before they in service. So no CV battles until 2HY/1926 at least. ;)
In the meantime, expect stories of KoN fliers denting the smoke stacks of the KMS Mest Viering and she going in to and out of refit like a !@#$%^&*() yoyo until I get her right.
Go for It Italy already scrapped her first Test CV because it was impractical given current tech and because it was a refitted BB and we need the BP.... ;) And less maintenance from useless wrecks....
Im working on a new Light Float Plane Tender but I have no clue when Italia will be able to afford to build it as the BP is going to cost me a cruiser...
Charles
KMS Crap Fest* accidents (http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675042084_USS-Langley_sea-plane_Landing-Signal-Officer_aircraft-carrier)
That is what KMS Mest Viering sort of means.
Actually, it be funny if with all these testing and problems that the world navies wrote the aircraft carrier off as a bad idea.
Hey My rush for carrier tech was to put scout planes on my Cruisers :) I am not wedded to the Idea of a ship for carrying aircraft into battle. In addition I cant really see Italy needing one... Land based air assets will do my Little Empire for quite some time.
Quote from: ctwaterman on July 19, 2010, 03:54:20 AM
Land based air assets will do my Little Empire for quite some time.
Must be nice.
Quote from: ctwaterman on July 19, 2010, 03:54:20 AMLand based air assets will do my Little Empire for quite some time.
Must be nice to have enough airfields on land to do good.
(This is internal restricted Dutch information) It is for program history purposes to show why the Mest Vierling kept going into refit after brief weeks of testing between modifications.
KMS Crap Fest* testing continues (http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675042083_USS-Langley_sea-plane_Lieutenant-Commander-Griffin_aircraft-carrier)
More of the KMS Mest Viering testing.
The pilots report they cannot land with a tailwind, and they keep hitting the pilot house.
A decision the engineers make to try a landing platform aft with two side paths to move the aft landing aircraft to the take off platform and vice versa....
KMS Crap Fest* testing continues (http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675068004_first-transatlantic-flight_John-Henry-Towers_Curtiss-NC-3_crew-aboard-aircraft)
Some seaplane experiments. The Crap Fest seems ill-suited for the type.
Foreign reports about KMS Mest Vierling. Apparently foreign navies think it is a propaganda joke. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWzRM0kf91I&feature=related)
Latest reports from the pilots are that now they can land into the wind like Gott intended, but now two new problems present themselves. They are blinded by stack smoke on final approach and the landing run is TOO SHORT!
Now they smack into the funnels.
Deck handlers complain; that as they try to use the pass bys, port or starboard, even if they detach the wings on the W-3s, they cannot roll the planes forward left, or aft right in a seaway, because of dangerous beam roll and length plunge the Crap Fest makes in even a moderate swell makes the W-3s unmanageable. This has already caused the deaths of a dozen deck handling crew and the loss of five aircraft in man or plane overboard incidents.
Testing out a new concept on land to use a clear continuous landing run on the KMS Mest Vierling in the latest modification plan. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kScOBNgfMBE&feature=related)
Apparently the idea of some kind of arrestor system is under test and is not very successful. The clear landing run seems to work though as that does reduce collisions.
An engineering review concludes that it is not funnel smoke in the pilot's eyes that caused the two crashes into into the fantail, but that air turbulence caused by both updraft and the funnels splitting the air stream flow, that causes a loss of symmetric wind-stream over deck, sets up two vortices and causes a loss of lift wind vortice generated condition about 30 meters aft of the Mest Vierling as she runs into the wind. Pilots caught in that twist force condition, who are not prepared, lose level control due to right wing drop and spin into the fantail crash.
The engineers who studied this recommend that the funnels be moved to one side of the clear deck, or the other, and that the pilot house be moved for the same exact reason.
=================================================
The Mest Vierling is modified again and undergoes further testing.
And some thinking about recon. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95KGlBqeYNU&NR=1)
=================================================
Latest mods and current tests. (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=19731)
Arrestor technology continues to fail. Sufficient distance for land on and take off runs seem far safer solutions at this point. Whatever form the aircraft tender takes now, it will be long and it will have a flat top.
(More Dutch restricted information.) Seaplane experiments.
W-3 testing. (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=77653)
Notice the ramp launch recovery methods for land-based operation.
W-5 testing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXGX5tmHjpk)
Note the use of a hinged wing fold for storage and the fitting of small ASW bombs in the test.
W-5 testing from ships, launch and recovery. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6NQPFDGBzI)
Notice lack of a working catapult at this time.
W-4 catapulted by means of explosive driven launch piston from ship. (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=14956)
Notice that the floatplane suffered debris damage during launch and the pilot had to abandon the seaplane after it sank after he emergency landed. The catapult is effective but it needs much further work to refine it.
More catapult experiments-landbased this time. (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=5680)
This test involves an experimental Fokker built to validate radio-telegraphy from the air. Notice the unstable and fragile construction of the airframe? The catapult is fairly successful and should with more development be accepted for service. The plane as of now (R-6) is considered unsafe.
When is all this carrier testing supposed to be happening?
Its a history that should take at least 1-2 years to complete after Masirah.
Masirah lessons learned.
1.Minesweeper methods need improvement.
2.Naval gunfire support needs improvement.
3.Reconnaissance needs vast improvement.
4.Ship to shore movement needs improvement.
5.Ad-hoc improvisation is no substitution for careful plans.
6.Insufficient means applied is an unjustified risk factor.
7.Political groundwork must be better coordinated with the military.
Recommendations.
1.Design new minesweeper gear and procedures.
2.Research new fire control methods.
3.Work on aerial reconnaissance.
4.Practice amphibious landings.
5.Work out a landing doctrine based on (4).
6.Secure the adequate means to our purposes.
7.Political is beyond the scope of these recommendations.
Nicholas van Rijn reads snippets of translated newspaper articles
QuoteShocking news today as the Irish government regretfully announced the death of Garrison Ahern, the president of the Republic of Ireland for the last 7 years.
as part of the daily NRDN "dump" as he sips afternoon tea. His doctors took away his Laher and cigars and have him eating nothing but fish, vegetables, and fruits and peddling madly on a fixed bicycle an hour a day. Here's more of the reasons why:
QuoteToday the new ambassador to the Confederate States of America, Dermot McGuinness, left today for the CSA on a passenger liner. The first in
a new effort to attempt to bring Ireland into a greater role on the world stage, no firm details were released about Ambassador McGuinness's orders. In the ambassadorial party however was a much larger group of officers from the Irish Navy, including a unidentified commodore.
...a delegation under Ambassador Ronan Curren will depart for the Kingdom of the Netherlands on board and Irish warship, with no major details released about his first orders eather. An increased Navy group is also expected to sail with Ambassador Curren.
Furious he roars: "Halswan! Get me that idiot, Welsen. Now!"
=================================================
Anders Welsen looks to see if he still has his head after the last "meeting" with van Rijn. Its not his fault that the Irish President died. Now the Irish sent an ambassador and a naval mission and he didn't know why. Maybe this little weasel from the Riksflotte Kommandamt could tell him why?
Welsen: "Well?"
Kapitein ter Zee Danny O'Hare*: We approached the new Irish government to make contacts with the new leader when your ambassador was too busy enjoying the Dublin breweries. He's another Kyrt Huergens, that one. Someone has to mind the store!"
Welsen: "He's being recalled and replaced. What did you do?"
O'Hare: "Mostly our naval attache apologized for Ginstler. But we did talk naval matters and a little bit about how the Hoen government mistreated Irish interests."
Welsen: "What about the CSA? What are they doing poking their noses in?"
O'Hare: "Same thing the New Swiss did with Oman. They see an opportunity. Problem is that the CSA are playing in "friendly" waters not as favorable to us, so we need to treat this incursion very gingerly. Feather touch until we see exactly what they are about. Trade is not a problem, open subversion or coercion of a free government IS. Note also, Meister Welsen, that the CSA has a large Irish populace that might not like it if they see us trying to push the Irish Republic. The present Irish government might not like it either. With your bull in a China shop approach of the recent past, it becomes a bit of a problem?"
Welsen: "And you are to fix it?"
O'Hare: "I'm your new MVB advisor. The First Minister wants you to have one now, so you don't screw this case up like you did Oman and the NUS."
Yes, there are Irish in the Kingdom
Uhm...
How on earth did you find out about a single group of only 5 Tennessee boys planning to take something home to the land of their grandfathers?
This is NOT common IC knowledge.
In fact, neither the CSA nor Ireland are aware of their actions.
Please modify the above post.
Quote from: damocles on July 25, 2010, 03:26:34 PM
Quote from: Carthaginian on July 25, 2010, 03:13:46 PM
Uhm...
How on earth did you find out about a single group of only 5 Tennessee boys planning to take something home to the land of their grandfathers?
This is NOT common IC knowledge.
In fact, neither the CSA nor Ireland are aware of their actions.
Please modify the above post.
The Dutch don't know about the five Tennessee drunks. What they know is: Quotethe CSA has a terrorist movement aimed at Eire
.
That should be fairly common knowledge to the NRDN. It should be a political element inside the CSA as much as it was in the US of the RTL, or did those Tommy guns and the USS Holland not have Sein Fenn funding and backing as part of their original history before the USG became involved?
Just asking.
EDIT:
THERE IS NO TERRORIST CELL... PERIOD. There is nothing for the Dutch to know about. There is nothing to spy over. NOTHING. This is not an IC denial- it's an OoC 'heads up' that you are inventing something that doesn't exist.
If you must know, I'll tell you EXACTLY why that storyline element exists- but it'll spoil the whole damn story for several people and ruin the fun for at least two people who are going to be writing it...
Working it out via PM
Gang: let's not argue this one out here. I see a PM in my inbox on the subject with both belligerents in the to: field. Let's work it out via pm, please.
(http://a.imageshack.us/img714/8560/nverselandmine2.jpg)
(Used with permission from Texas Cowboy.)
(http://a.imageshack.us/img709/7910/nversechemicalmortar.jpg)
(Developed in house.)
A gas mine?
LOL... I love it.
The Dutch will be the easiest army in the world to defeat- just let the wind change, trip the gas mines, and let their own weapons kill them. Gas is a very unpredictable weapon, and just as dangerous to the user as it is to the intend victim.
Hmmm... Reminds me somehow of my Type 76 20cm Projector the Livens Projector. :)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Livens_gas_projector_loading.jpg)
This is a 15th or 16th Century weapon updated to more modern usage. In Vietnahm it was made by mixing naptha and gasoline to make Napalm and putting it into tanks on top of a C4 charge.
Im trying to think of the Early French Name for it... Hmmm cant remember but it was a simple stone nitch built into the walls of the keep with a keg of Gun Poweder and a couple of kegs of something flaminable and you set it off in the attackers face and the stone channeled it towards the attacking enemy causing death, fire, and light to see attackers at night...
Charles
A Fougasse, that is the name.
But what damocless shows is the Lives Projector. The first distance weapon to deliver gas attacks with some range.
What reminds me. Is Tiamat sprayable?
Its a Livens minengeweffer.
(http://a.imageshack.us/img818/6831/nversechemicalmortar3.jpg)
Properly emplaced and loaded, the bomb thrower can be anything including Greek Fire or some kind of incendiary that is hurled.
Specifications of projector
Shell: Gas drum
Calibre: 125 mm
Elevation: 45 degree
Traverse: 0 degree
Maximum range: 100-1,500 m (1.5 km)
Filling: chemical
Filling weight: 5 kg.
Detonation mechanism: Impact
Notes: The fill is variable. Poison gas filled bottle is just one munition type.
NvR reads this in the NRDN reports.
QuoteIts started.
van Seik
(http://a.imageshack.us/img186/4096/nversesubmine.jpg)
NvR to Anders Wellsen: "Is it done?"
Welsen: "Hertzog said its done."
(http://a.imageshack.us/img571/4102/nversedutchaircraft8.jpg)
Being built in the near future to customer specifications due to very recent combat experience.
D.
For information story background. This meeting is not known to anyone; except the Dutch and the MK to this point.
Somewhere in central China, in a freshly tunneled excavation in a hillside, where Chinese labor drafts, under the exhortations of worker gang bosses, lay camouflaged railroad sleepers and rails from an equally camouflaged spur line, and where, nearby, under pole-supported netting that hides it from the air, a Dutch pattern 2-4-2 locomotive, with its strange flatcars, (all MK built), sits waiting to scurry into its new hardened shelter hide; a strange meet occurs.
For the two most influential Dutchmen in Asia, who have worked in country for what seems like years, Guntar Hertzog and Albert van Seik, just meet each other face to face for the first time.
Hertzog road that train, as a passenger on a flatcar, out in the open, where he sat coolie style with the rest of the passengers, through the rains the wimdstorms, and hailstorms from Beijing to here, to meet van Seik, in the middle of another Dutch hell. Three years before the DKB came to the Middle Kingdom, and now the Dutch, that trip He would have been conveyed by covered oxcart or pole carriage.
So much had foreigner hatred and domestic envy forced this kind of change on the Middle Kingdom. The staid backward Middle Kingdom luxury that he would have previously enjoyed, given his status, made way to industrial equality for all of those classes, who were not of the aristocracy or the tenured bureaucracy. There was this no special treatment for Xirong in the Middle Kingdom now.
Such was the legacy of the New Swiss, and now the current war. The Serene Presence called it the Great Leveling of the Masses as he explained it to the Dutch ambassador (at least that was what was what the Emperor's spokesman said. Hertzog was Xirong, so still did not merit yet a personal meeting without the interlocutory). In many ways, it frightened Hertzog to see such a Middle Kingdom change from, when he was part of the failed Dutch trade effort in 1909. He never expected such a conservative Kingdom to embrace such a radical hive-like approach now, where docile workers, servile thinkers, and the haughty privileged rulers, subsumed their individuality for the common mass goal, whatever the Serene Presence decreed that was. It was so un-Chinese to experience this machine-like approach to Human beings.
Hertzog walked to the tunnel entrance, just like any other coolie, who just climbed off the flatcars loaded with crates and strange machines did. He suddenly looked skyward to see what planes were above him as he heard them fly over.
A short man dressed in the mustard brown rubberized uniform that ALL ranks in the Middle Kingdom army now wore, regardless of class or position, came out of the artificial cave to meet him. The short man said to Hertzog: "Those are ours. They are trainers flown by new student pilots. We are too far back to see any Southerners* this far north."
Hertzog still looks skyward, nervous: "At night, they fly?" The short man continues: "Of course at night. The enemy has almost five times as many aircraft, and pilots. Our only advantage now is that we train for night combat so that we can so fight when he can't. Same for the army. The navy?" The short man shrugs. They walk to the cave under moonlight and rain heavy clouds.
Instant dislike of each other seems to be the order of the day.
van Seik: "So you are the man who botched my request for Middle Kingdom built landing barges?"
Hertzog, looking over the the short Walloon's head, replies: "I still have trouble with protocol admission to the Forbidden City, and I am still a 'guest' outside it in this nation, majoor generaal, as are you. As guests, we do not make requests, we supply assistance and advice when asked." This speech is said pleasantly, but with a great deal of hidden venom in the ambassador's voice.
van Seik: "Those 'requests' were the difference between 50,000 and 100,000 casualties! A lot of good men died to establish those beachheads."
Hertzog: "If I were you I would worry more about the air situation, than the beachheads."
van Seik splutters: "You are a military expert?"
Hertzog: "No, I am not, but so far, I don't really see why van Rijn thought you could handle this war."
van Seik: "As you say, I am a "guest". I can only advise as to how a campaign is conducted. I don't command anything here."
Hertzog: "Off point, then. Why did you want to see me."
van Seik hands Hertzog a sheaf of burn papers to read. Hertzog reads the ideographs, Chinese?!?!?
Hertzog: "I can't read this!"
van Seik: "That list of 'requests' must be fulfilled to conduct phase two operations. I thought that after this much time in country you would at least learn how to read simplified Manchu?"
Hertzog: "I still can't read it."
van Seik, irritated: "Here, let me read it too you, then."
The little Walloon proceeds to translate into the Walloon dialect of Dutch from the Manchu, the list of things that van Seik wants Hertzog to present to the Serene Presence.
Hertzog: "You demand the impossible!"
van Seik: "I just led an army that used a collection of old junks, old decrepit paddle wheel steamers and floating rafts little better than logs tied together with paper rope, across the flooded Yangtze, against an enemy that rules the air, and we crossed that river and established ourselves. Don't tell me what the Middle Kingdom can or cannot do! Get that list done!"
van Seik burns the list in front of Hertzog as required by Dutch military regulations. Hertzog, as a diplomat, is expected to have the ability to read or listen once and memorize contents. No paper trail exists for enemy agents to exploit.
* Politically correct term for the RRC aggressors.
Note that this information is only for Holland, and her MK, Irish, Leipzig Pact, and Ottoman allies. Other nations can inquire by PM and I might explain what the heck is going on.
RFKamt...Amsterdam
Engineer Pavel Hund: "Have you seen what the RFK demanded we produce as a design study?"
QuoteD-III, Holland TJ 6000 laid down 1911 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
6,045 t light; 6,307 t standard; 7,284 t normal; 8,066 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
539.23 ft / 528.22 ft x 49.21 ft x 19.19 ft (normal load)
164.36 m / 161.00 m x 15.00 m x 5.85 m
Armament:
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x3 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,346 lbs / 611 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 379.99 ft / 115.82 m 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 2.01" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.51" / 13 mm 0.51" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 42,360 shp / 31,600 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,759 tons
Complement:
393 - 512
Cost:
£0.589 million / $2.358 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 168 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 1,311 tons, 18.0 %
- Belts: 674 tons, 9.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 112 tons, 1.5 %
- Armour Deck: 484 tons, 6.6 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 1,689 tons, 23.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,627 tons, 36.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,239 tons, 17.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 3.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,466 lbs / 3,840 Kg = 82.2 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.73 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m before break)
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.44 ft / 5.01 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102.8 %
Waterplane Area: 17,495 Square feet or 1,625 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 439 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250
100 tons fire control
25 tons radar
25 tons acoustics
25 tons radio
50 tons torpedoes
25 tons misc.
Meister architect Hsien Yzu reads the specifications: "Change out the gear ratio sets, add some fuel bunkerage, complete change of armament, add radar, sonar, radio, etc.: that is 25% of the new build cost...or 1.51$ and 1.5 BP. Take all four in hand and that would be the equivalent of one new cruiser. Only problem is that they are just too slow..."
Hund: "What do you babble?"
Hsien Yzu: "The Demarce III's. I thought we were trying for the Demarce IVs, but it looks like we are going to be buying the D-IIIs."
Hund: "You are crazy! France would never sell the D-IIIs. That would be half of her effective scout cruiser force."
Hsien Yzu: "Never the less, what if we could get them?" He muses: "Nobody really knows what a complete MODERN torpedo jaeger kruizer squadron could do. This is a way to find out..."
Notice that this information is internal use only and like the previous post is restricted to Holland's allies.
Admiral Schoepen looks over the decrypt.
"Too slow." he mutters.
QuoteD-III, Holland TJ 6000 laid down 1920
Displacement:
6,063 t light; 6,281 t standard; 7,284 t normal; 8,087 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
540.01 ft / 528.22 ft x 49.21 ft x 19.19 ft (normal load)
164.60 m / 161.00 m x 15.00 m x 5.85 m
Armament:
12 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (4x3 guns), 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 826 lbs / 375 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 377.30 ft / 115.00 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.51" / 13 mm 0.51" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 4.92" / 125 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 42,360 shp / 31,600 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,806 tons
Complement:
393 - 512
Cost:
£1.197 million / $4.786 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 103 tons, 1.4 %
Armour: 1,440 tons, 19.8 %
- Belts: 672 tons, 9.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 92 tons, 1.3 %
- Armour Deck: 637 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,481 tons, 20.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,538 tons, 34.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,221 tons, 16.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 6.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,452 lbs / 4,288 Kg = 158.6 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.73 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.30 ft / 7.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Stern: 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Average freeboard: 16.81 ft / 5.12 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.5 %
Waterplane Area: 17,495 Square feet or 1,625 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 86 lbs/sq ft or 419 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.01
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.04
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
500 tons misc.
250 tons fire control
25 tons radar
25 tons acoustics
25 tons radio
25 tons mines
150 tons torpedoes= 1 load + 3 reloads.
100 tons misc.
Armor deck belt is an inclined external belt
[ooc]
Triple "deck mounts with hoists" are questionable. The rules specify "twin mounts with hoist" for the given technology - not triples.
For triples one would need to have the tech that allow "guns in triple turrets" or whatever it is in SS2 - but, ,specifically, the rule does dot allow triple mounts with hoists. [/ooc]
ooc : Twin 6" mounts with hoists appear to have been cramped and slow to rotate, with subsequent classes featuring barbettes. I think the rotating weight on triple 125mm or 150mm would be excessive for a deck mount, and compromise their role. Not to mention that ROF in triples is usually less than twins, which is more noticeable in these smaller guns, further diluting the value.
Also, the capital ship FC is not necessary on the D-III, Holland TJ 6000 design.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 22, 2010, 11:52:55 AM
ooc : Twin 6" mounts with hoists appear to have been cramped and slow to rotate, with subsequent classes featuring barbettes. I think the rotating weight on triple 125mm or 150mm would be excessive for a deck mount, and compromise their role. Not to mention that ROF in triples is usually less than twins, which is more noticeable in these smaller guns, further diluting the value.
Also, the capital ship FC is not necessary on the D-III, Holland TJ 6000 design.
I agree on the mounts being unable to handle triples. Also, if you go to turret/barbette to handle the triples then you would need the 250t BB/AC FC you already installed.
QuoteD-III, Holland TJ 6000 laid down 1920
Displacement:
6,326 t light; 6,594 t standard; 7,623 t normal; 8,446 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
536.73 ft / 524.93 ft x 49.21 ft (Bulges 55.77 ft) x 18.04 ft (normal load)
163.60 m / 160.00 m x 15.00 m (Bulges 17.00 m) x 5.50 m
Armament:
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x3 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,346 lbs / 611 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 377.30 ft / 115.00 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.51" / 13 mm 0.51" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.38" / 35 mm, Conning tower: 4.92" / 125 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 44,287 shp / 33,038 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,852 tons
Complement:
407 - 530
Cost:
£1.370 million / $5.479 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 168 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 1,354 tons, 17.8 %
- Belts: 671 tons, 8.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 201 tons, 2.6 %
- Armour Deck: 441 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,549 tons, 20.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,755 tons, 36.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,297 tons, 17.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 6.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,994 lbs / 4,080 Kg = 87.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.30 ft / 7.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Stern: 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Average freeboard: 16.81 ft / 5.12 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.8 %
Waterplane Area: 17,291 Square feet or 1,606 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 93 lbs/sq ft or 455 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
500 tons misc.
250 tons fire control
25 tons radar
25 tons acoustics
25 tons radio
25 tons mines
150 tons torpedoes= 1 load + 3 reloads.
100 tons misc.
Armor belt is an inclined external belt
"Better..." Schoepen mutters, "but still too slow. What do they expect to do with a 14 m/s kruizer when our enemies have a 2m/s speed advantage?
Quote8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
QuoteAnti-aircraft Guns and Directors
1903 (-1): Machine gun caliber weapons aimed by hand and eye. Field guns firing non-AA specific ammunition.
1910 (0): Purpose designed weapons and ammunition, including hand adjusted timed-fused shells for larger calibers, and tracers in machine guns and autocannon.
1918 (+1): Improved timed fuses. AA fire plans. Central post AA fire control.
1926 (+2): Improved ammunition supply for automatic weapons. Early AA fire control tables. Dual Purpose guns.
1936 (+3): Mature AA fire control. Radar guided AA fire control. Proximity fuses for guns larger than 75mm.
Quote from: Sachmle on August 24, 2010, 03:41:07 PM
Quote8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
QuoteAnti-aircraft Guns and Directors
1903 (-1): Machine gun caliber weapons aimed by hand and eye. Field guns firing non-AA specific ammunition.
1910 (0): Purpose designed weapons and ammunition, including hand adjusted timed-fused shells for larger calibers, and tracers in machine guns and autocannon.
1918 (+1): Improved timed fuses. AA fire plans. Central post AA fire control.
1926 (+2): Improved ammunition supply for automatic weapons. Early AA fire control tables. Dual Purpose guns.
1936 (+3): Mature AA fire control. Radar guided AA fire control. Proximity fuses for guns larger than 75mm.
Change to AAA then until DPs come online.
=========================================================
As for the latest in Holland's pantserwagens
URL=http://img64.imageshack.us/i/nversedutchtank2.jpg/](http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8219/nversedutchtank2.jpg)[/URL]
Clankity, clankity Brno since 1916.
Futuristic tank... (with a very optimistic speed for a 30 tons monster)
The Italians built one in 1917 called the Fiat 2000.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/ItalianTanks.html
Lighten by ten tons, and cut down the top deck by one full meter with the same engine. Use a Holt tractor as the underdesign.
Quote
Fiat 2000 - Model 17
The first Italian tank. It was conceived by Fiat as a private venture in October 1916. The first prototype was ready in June 1917. Fiat donated 2 tanks to Italian Army in February 1918. Total production until the end of 1919. encompassed 6 vehicles. Arguably the finest heavy tank built in WW1 and a great "what if...". The Fiat 2000 never saw combat. For more detail, go to: TANKS! e-Magazine Winter 2001 Issue #2
Specifications Crew 10
Engine 240hp - gasoline
Weight 40 tons
Speed 4.5 - 6mph (depending on the source)
Armament 6 x MG, 1 x 65mm Main Gun
Length 24' 3"
Width 10' 2"
Height 12' 5"
Armor 15 - 20mm.
Not too far off for something with only a half-inch of armor... speed or otherwise.
Easily knocked out by anything over a .50 caliber round, but a real pain in the ass for infantry to handle alone (as heavy machine guns were still kind of 'special' about now).
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 14, 2010, 08:07:05 AM
Not too far off for something with only a half-inch of armor... speed or otherwise.
Easily knocked out by anything over a .50 caliber round, but a real pain in the ass for infantry to handle alone (as heavy machine guns were still kind of 'special' about now).
I need an opinion. The minengewerfer is a low velocity grenade thrower, hardly better than a low powered breech loaded trench mortar. When can I realistically install a 50 mm howitizer or some type of shell gun?
On hindsight:
Just don't pick out the most promising historical designs from all over Europe, then rationalize/correct the design. So keep all the machine guns all around. The coax MG next to the grenade launcher is definitely futuristic. Also, cutting the top 1m from the tank won't leave room for the operator of the main gun.
While the FT-2000 looks good on paper, it would shed its long tracks easily. The British encountered the same problem when they tried to lengthen the tracks of the Holt tractor. This was the reason why the rhomboids had a rigid suspension. There was a guide rail just above the track that the track segments engaged so they won't fall out. Or the short tracks on every other WWI designs based on the Holt tractor. It took a few years of operational experience and experiments to get long tracks with suspension to work.
On grenade launchers:
The FT-17 also had a 75mm grenade launcher version (Renault BS).
First tanks with gun (45mm+) turrets should be like the Vickers Mediums, or heavy landships with marginal armor (Vickers A1E1, Char B1 and 2C) and multiple turrets.
Quote from: damocles on September 15, 2010, 12:52:01 PM
I need an opinion. The minengewerfer is a low velocity grenade thrower, hardly better than a low powered breech loaded trench mortar. When can I realistically install a 50 mm howitizer or some type of shell gun?
When you build a tank that has ship-like ability to sustain the necessary shock!
None of the early tanks were really that practical, and those that had naval guns mounted were even moreso.
I could easily knock any of them out with a Confederate 1" machine gun.
If you want to build a 'tank' your are out of luck till the mid 20's.
If you want a marginally armored (<0.5"), mobile bunker (<5 MPH) that is immune to only light rifle fire... then you can.
QuoteIf you want a marginally armored (<0.5"), mobile bunker (<5 MPH) that is immune to only light rifle fire... then you can.
The 1918 Whippet (~14t, 45hp per engine, 2 engine) from the UK went 8 mph with ~14mm armor around. The 1918 Hornet (~23t, 150hp, 1 engine) from the UK went 8.3 mph. I recall a few tanks during the period that went even faster with slightly more armor, the result of purpose-designed tank engines that started coming out ~1918, but I can't recall their names offhand.
The other tanks were never designed with great speed in mind. They weren't exactly used for quick movements, but breaking static lines. The Hornet and Whippet were designed for speed but came too early for the purpose-designed tank engines.
When the purpose engine did come out it seemed that most tanks reverted to adding more armor instead of allowing more speed. Hence the idea that they were slow. They had potential to not be, granted no where near WW2 standards of speed. 14mph could certainly be achieved if less armor was attempted.
For example the Renault FT-17 reported had 22-30mm armor when designed and produced initially. IT went 5mph initially (running on a 4-cyl 39hp all straight inline mind you!). SUch as it is, although the suspension and transmission cost quite some weight are were prone to breaking down very often, using a more powerful engine for a slight widening of the tank was very possible and with that, a great boost to speed attainable. Both high-powered Vee inline engines and radial engines were becoming available, and both gave a great deal of power more than a low cc straight 4-cyl.
But that would entire require an advanced tank doctrine to put the pieces together for the need for a high-powered purpose-built tank engine or terrible hindsightis.
Quote from: Logi on September 15, 2010, 05:35:22 PM
But that would entire require an advanced tank doctrine to put the pieces together for the need for a high-powered purpose-built tank engine or terrible hindsightis.
Basically the point that I'm trying to get across.
The tank was originally designed to cover infantry advances into the teeth of light machine gun fire from protected positions. This did not require either heavy armor or high speed- indeed, these would have been a detriment. Heavy armor would have increased wear, tear and strain on the engine and so would high speed. Very light naval guns were handy for knocking out pillboxes, and machine guns of their own were great for protecting infantry (more easily able to follow a slow tank than a fast one) from close-in counterattack.
Tanks didn't become very heavily armored until someone got the bright idea 'it takes one to kill one.'
Also, Logi, tanks like the FT-17 had 'heavy' armor and 'high' speed... but extremely light guns compared to the larger 'infantry support tanks.' I also only see it getting credit for 4.5 MPH, not a lot faster than the Mk I of the British. Additionally, the Renault had only 2 crewmen and the British tank had 8.
The ultimate FT-17 version would be the FIAT 3000. Built a bit lighter, with a stronger engine, could do 20km/h (15mph). Having some suspension helps a lot. I'd expect N3verse light tanks should look like it after the second iteration. And the 37mm gun should be adequate as an AT gun against contemporaries.
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/fiat3000_info.htm
Quote from: P3D on September 15, 2010, 06:37:12 PM
And the 37mm gun should be adequate as an AT gun against contemporaries.
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/fiat3000_info.htm
LOL... like I said- in this time period, a .50 caliber with API rounds is an effective anti-tank weapon.
QuoteThe tank was originally designed to cover infantry advances into the teeth of light machine gun fire from protected positions.
The Republican army apparently has a different idea of tanks, but it's doctrine for tanks in it self is flawed heavily. It conceived tanks as an extension of motorized logistic formations, or rather, Armored Cavalry. Like the Republican's independent operating arm of cavalry, the tank is expected to operate independently of the infantry and work with the cavalry or replace it.
Of course that means light main gun if not only a mg and very thin armor. Which, if hindsightis is allowed, proves to be a problem all in it's own.
QuoteAlso, Logi, tanks like the FT-17 had 'heavy' armor and 'high' speed... but extremely light guns compared to the larger 'infantry support tanks.'
Indeed, a 37mm autogun, not very accurate or powerful, but fast loading. Such, an anti-personnal weapon rather than a true heavy gun.
QuoteI also only see it getting credit for 4.5 MPH
Records are not very clear, I find everything from 4.3mph to 5mph as the reported speed for the Renault FT-17. But that is to be expected from a tank with a relatively low bHp engine and thick armor (thicker than any other tank, anyways).
QuoteAdditionally, the Renault had only 2 crewmen and the British tank had 8.
That had a lot to do with design as well as the number of weapons carried. The Mark I possessed an even more ill-suited engine than the Renault thus required quite more maintenance and people operating on it.Not to mention the plethora of guns in the tank meant it required 4 gunners for the weapons alone. Add in the separate commander and the driver and the need for direct fixing on the engine (it was not rear-mounted engine yet) meant a much higher complement.
If, like the Renault, the Mark I possessed only one main gun/ mg, the commander could operate as the commander as well. And with a rear mounted engine, the driver becoming the engineer in the rest time. Thus a drop from 8 crew members to 2. And this in itself saves a great deal of space and thus weight allowing a better engine performance due to lower weight.
As P3D's example of the FIAT 3000, a bit less weight does wonders. We compare the Mark I (28 tons, 105bHp converted engine) to FT-17 (7.2 ton, 39bHp more suited engine). A ratio of 3.75 hp/ton to 5.41 hp/ton, not to mention a much less burden transmission due to lower weight.
Quote from: Logi on September 15, 2010, 06:48:43 PM
As P3D's example of the FIAT 3000, a bit less weight does wonders. We compare the Mark I (28 tons, 105bHp converted engine) to FT-17 (7.2 ton, 39bHp more suited engine). A ratio of 3.75 hp/ton to 5.41 hp/ton, not to mention a much less burden transmission due to lower weight.
The Fiat was only a FASTER tank... not a BETTER one.
The Fiat could only fire one weapon at a time, and only possessed two.
The Mk I could fire two TYPES of weapon at once- and could fire a pair of 57mm and at least 2 .303 MG's as well; granted, the MG's had to stop firing for the tank to turn, but that changed with the Mk V.
Also, the comparison of late-model Fiats should be made to the later marks of British tank- which took only one man to drive (and thus freed up ALL other crewmen to operate weapons), had a more reliable 200+ HP engine and made better than 5 MPH (though not by much).
Again, neither tank was necessarily a 'better' tank- both were well designed
for their intended job.
Were I a late-war infantryman, I'd FAR rather have a Mk.V to march beside than a Renault.
If I were a cavalry officer, needing a scout that could get out and back and survive... then the Renault would work.
Indeed a problem of role. For infantry supporting tanks, there was no need for high speed, more weapons would have been a whole lot better. I would, too, prefer a Mark V for that role.
However, I was addressing on the premise of the desired tank was a faster one, not one with more weapons. Although I say the Renaults were not scouts, no, leave that to the real fast ones, the armored cars. It was a light tank, capable enough to go advance or with the cavalry and cause good disruption. The 37mm was, as I mentioned, an autogun, high RoF, intended as anti-infantry weapon.
You are correct on the more reliable engines on the Mark V and on though, that is because if I recall correctly, the Mark V and on used purpose designed engines rather than the converted commercial or industrial engines as was norm before.
Side-Note: We should have a mod move this to another topic.
I think we are looking at different roles for our different armored vehicles.
As an Example the Empire of Italia is developing the light tank and armored car with an emphasis on the armored car with a couple of machine guns or a light breach loading cannon or trench mortar style weapon. The Light tanks are for dealing with fortified hard points or small bunkers the Armored Cars for Recon or Cavalry roles such as scouting or persuit of a retreating enemy.
Heavy Tanks something Italia has not worked on are now seen as something they need to aquire to assisst in breaking through enemies who have dug in in difficult terrain.
And a need for a larger support element for a motorized army is found to be needed. :o
More Mechanics, more armorers and well just more logistic tail to such a formation.
Charles
Quote from: P3D on September 15, 2010, 02:56:01 PM
On hindsight:
Just don't pick out the most promising historical designs from all over Europe, then rationalize/correct the design. So keep all the machine guns all around. The coax MG next to the grenade launcher is definitely futuristic. Also, cutting the top 1m from the tank won't leave room for the operator of the main gun.
The reason for looking at the F-2000 was that it was actually successful as designed.
The joint Dutch exercises with the Bavarians at Namur with the GBW II, by now definitely show that a MG all around is necessary. The simplest Dutch solution is a protected cuppola a la FT-17.
The only reason for the F-2000 fighting deck and 10 man crew was that citadel arrangement of machine guns (in naval terms think of the Merrimac versus the Monitor)
QuoteWhile the FT-2000 looks good on paper, it would shed its long tracks easily. The British encountered the same problem when they tried to lengthen the tracks of the Holt tractor. This was the reason why the rhomboids had a rigid suspension. There was a guide rail just above the track that the track segments engaged so they won't fall out. Or the short tracks on every other WWI designs based on the Holt tractor. It took a few years of operational experience and experiments to get long tracks with suspension to work.
The problem with track popping has never gone away AFAIK. The criticism is very legitimate. Nothing I read suggests that the F-2000 was any different in this from the British tanks, or that the British rail guide solution ever changed this for the Marks I-IV.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Stories/emagazine-1/fiat2000/
The fighting deck can be lowered. It will require some design changes from what is seen here. The engine will be as is, the cuppola moved forward and a step built in, and the aft MGs and side MGs deleted. The bow MGs are tray mounted left and right feed as per 1917 aircraft armament.
(http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Stories/emagazine-1/fiat2000/img1.gif)
(http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Stories/emagazine-1/fiat2000/img2.gif)
QuoteOn grenade launchers:
The FT-17 also had a 75mm grenade launcher version (Renault BS).
First tanks with gun (45mm+) turrets should be like the Vickers Mediums, or heavy landships with marginal armor (Vickers A1E1, Char B1 and 2C) and multiple turrets.
The line of Dutch Nverse evolution, like the historical Italian development off the first British Mark II tanks they saw, is based off the mythical Dutch GBW II. That Italian cupola as designed held an
infantry cannon which was a first for everyone. I discounted the howitzer as unworkable as the arguments about it are valid. The minengewerfer is much less powerful and smaller. That leaves room for the MG, I think-especially since the MG and minengewerfer share the same traverse elevation mount.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 15, 2010, 04:47:58 PM
Quote from: damocles on September 15, 2010, 12:52:01 PM
I need an opinion. The minengewerfer is a low velocity grenade thrower, hardly better than a low powered breech loaded trench mortar. When can I realistically install a 50 mm howitizer or some type of shell gun?
When you build a tank that has ship-like ability to sustain the necessary shock!
None of the early tanks were really that practical, and those that had naval guns mounted were even moreso.
Agreed.
QuoteI could easily knock any of them out with a Confederate 1" machine gun.
Agreed.
QuoteIf you want to build a 'tank' your are out of luck till the mid 20's.
If you want a marginally armored (<0.5"), mobile bunker (<5 MPH) that is immune to only light rifle fire... then you can.
This is what the British actually did. Its still useful as the British and French demonstrated in 1918. A 25 mm auto-cannon in Nverse 1918 is not light or common, or as mobile.
Quote from: Logi on September 15, 2010, 05:35:22 PM
QuoteIf you want a marginally armored (<0.5"), mobile bunker (<5 MPH) that is immune to only light rifle fire... then you can.
The 1918 Whippet (~14t, 45hp per engine, 2 engine) from the UK went 8 mph with ~14mm armor around. The 1918 Hornet (~23t, 150hp, 1 engine) from the UK went 8.3 mph. I recall a few tanks during the period that went even faster with slightly more armor, the result of purpose-designed tank engines that started coming out ~1918, but I can't recall their names offhand.
Vickers Mark IIs around 1920. I prefer k/h, here, because those are performance units with that I am comfortable, and a lot of our Nverse members are more used to the metric system as well. The base line walk pace for Humans over broken ground is 3-4 miles an hour, or about 5-6.5 k/h. The Whippet is thus about 13 k/h.
QuoteThe other tanks were never designed with great speed in mind. They weren't exactly used for quick movements, but breaking static lines. The Hornet and Whippet were designed for speed but came too early for the purpose-designed tank engines.
The British were thinking of
cavalry tanks in 1917 when the Whippet came out. That was the reason for the speed.
QuoteWhen the purpose engine did come out it seemed that most tanks reverted to adding more armor instead of allowing more speed. Hence the idea that they were slow. They had potential to not be, granted no where near WW2 standards of speed. 14mph could certainly be achieved if less armor was attempted.
This is an error. The engines were already there. What changed was the research into transmissions and power takeoffs and engine cooling systems. That was the holdup. In fact it always was so, as by 1918, aircraft engines were getting rather good. These engines lacked the transmissions and cooling systems to make them land vehicle engines, but eventually once those two problems were solved, they did become tank engines (Liberties and Curtiss radials were famous examples)
QuoteFor example the Renault FT-17 reported had 22-30mm armor when designed and produced initially. IT went 5mph initially (running on a 4-cyl 39hp all straight inline mind you!). Such as it is, although the suspension and transmission cost quite some weight are were prone to breaking down very often, using a more powerful engine for a slight widening of the tank was very possible and with that, a great boost to speed attainable. Both high-powered Vee inline engines and radial engines were becoming available, and both gave a great deal of power more than a low cc straight 4-cyl.
Agreed. See own comments.
QuoteBut that would entire require an advanced tank doctrine to put the pieces together for the need for a high-powered purpose-built tank engine or terrible hindsightis.
Or an Nverse war and an urgent Dutch testing program, based on that war.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 15, 2010, 06:29:00 PM
Quote from: Logi on September 15, 2010, 05:35:22 PM
But that would entire require an advanced tank doctrine to put the pieces together for the need for a high-powered purpose-built tank engine or terrible hindsightis.
Basically the point that I'm trying to get across.
The tank was originally designed to cover infantry advances into the teeth of light machine gun fire from protected positions. This did not require either heavy armor or high speed- indeed, these would have been a detriment. Heavy armor would have increased wear, tear and strain on the engine and so would high speed. Very light naval guns were handy for knocking out pillboxes, and machine guns of their own were great for protecting infantry (more easily able to follow a slow tank than a fast one) from close-in counterattack.
A speed of 15k/h is 9 mph. 15-20 mm is designed to stop 7.92 mm MG fire and shell splinters.
QuoteTanks didn't become very heavily armored until someone got the bright idea 'it takes one to kill one.'
Not shown in this model at all as the Dutch are still not thinking along those lines. Otherwise I would have two different types of tank like the British and French started. The Dutch are stuck on trench breaker/exploitation of breakthrough problem right now.
QuoteAlso, Logi, tanks like the FT-17 had 'heavy' armor and 'high' speed... but extremely light guns compared to the larger 'infantry support tanks.' I also only see it getting credit for 4.5 MPH, not a lot faster than the Mk I of the British. Additionally, the Renault had only 2 crewmen and the British tank had 8.
The Renault, as I understand, because of that clumsy asymmetric track-laying system could not exceed 9 k/h without shedding tracks. The Italian F-3000 fixed this and achieved speeds of 25 k/h road speed and half that cross country:
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/italy/tanks-light/fiat-3000.asp
Quote from: P3D on September 15, 2010, 06:37:12 PM
The ultimate FT-17 version would be the FIAT 3000. Built a bit lighter, with a stronger engine, could do 20km/h (15mph). Having some suspension helps a lot. I'd expect N3verse light tanks should look like it after the second iteration. And the 37mm gun should be adequate as an AT gun against contemporaries.
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/fiat3000_info.htm
but not until
1930.
Quote from: Logi on September 15, 2010, 06:48:43 PM
QuoteThe tank was originally designed to cover infantry advances into the teeth of light machine gun fire from protected positions.
The Republican army apparently has a different idea of tanks, but it's doctrine for tanks in it self is flawed heavily. It conceived tanks as an extension of motorized logistic formations, or rather, Armored Cavalry. Like the Republican's independent operating arm of cavalry, the tank is expected to operate independently of the infantry and work with the cavalry or replace it.
And that is not the Dutch 1917-1918 Namur test range conclusions at all.
QuoteOf course that means light main gun if not only a mg and very thin armor. Which, if hindsight is is allowed, proves to be a problem all in it's own.
Dutch trench assault exercises show that
some kind of grenade thrower and machine guns are vital in the same machine.QuoteQuoteAlso, Logi, tanks like the FT-17 had 'heavy' armor and 'high' speed... but extremely light guns compared to the larger 'infantry support tanks.'
Indeed, a 37mm autogun, not very accurate or powerful, but fast loading. Such, an anti-personnal weapon rather than a true heavy gun.
Not likely at this point for the Nverse Dutch; they find that explosive shell is MOST important to clear trenches, not shot. Like the CSA, they look at tanks as vulnerable to heavy MGs, but unlike the CSA, the Dutch see friendly artillery suppression as the tanks close the trench line, as the anti-dote. That is the reason for all those 210mm and 255 mm minengewerfer bought.
Quote
QuoteI also only see it getting credit for 4.5 MPH
Records are not very clear, I find everything from 4.3mph to 5mph as the reported speed for the Renault FT-17. But that is to be expected from a tank with a relatively low bHp engine and thick armor (thicker than any other tank, anyways).
Small tank was hard to hit with cannon fire, as opposed to being heavy MG raked. The Germans were slow to pick up on this French deliberate design choice after the French saw the vulnerable British Mark Is and IIBs artillery trashed, or 1918 would have been real world very different.
QuoteQuoteAdditionally, the Renault had only 2 crewmen and the British tank had 8.
That had a lot to do with design as well as the number of weapons carried. The Mark I possessed an even more ill-suited engine than the Renault thus required quite more maintenance and people operating on it. Not to mention the plethora of guns in the tank meant it required 4 gunners for the weapons alone. Add in the separate commander and the driver and the need for direct fixing on the engine (it was not rear-mounted engine yet) meant a much higher complement.
Some of those men were oilers and mechanics who worked on the transmission and track-layers as the tank moved. They had to tighten and oil things that shook loose as those vibrating horrors rattled apart. Remember that a Holt tractor was originally designed to move at less than 3 k/h. The tanks,k we call slow were two to four times faster, than the original tractors they were designed to imitate.
QuoteIf, like the Renault, the Mark I possessed only one main gun/ mg, the commander could operate as the commander as well. And with a rear mounted engine, the driver becoming the engineer in the rest time. Thus a drop from 8 crew members to 2. And this in itself saves a great deal of space and thus weight allowing a better engine performance due to lower weight.
The French were wrong about that. You cannot aim and issue orders at the same time. You need a tactician and a specialist gunner. A driver stops being your mechanic when your tank becomes a 14 tonne+ monster and you need to design for driver, gunner, commander, navigator and spare gunner/driver.
QuoteAs P3D's example of the FIAT 3000, a bit less weight does wonders. We compare the Mark I (28 tons, 105bHp converted engine) to FT-17 (7.2 ton, 39bHp more suited engine). A ratio of 3.75 hp/ton to 5.41 hp/ton, not to mention a much less burden transmission due to lower weight.
Again I raise the issue of transmissions and engine cooling. The BRNO Mark V PW has a 176 kW engine that works out to 8 HP/t. or 6 kW/tonne. It does not translate into a 30 k/h speed. The 1918 transmission won't take it.
Quote from: P3D on September 15, 2010, 06:37:12 PM
The ultimate FT-17 version would be the FIAT 3000. Built a bit lighter, with a stronger engine, could do 20km/h (15mph). Having some suspension helps a lot. I'd expect N3verse light tanks should look like it after the second iteration. And the 37mm gun should be adequate as an AT gun against contemporaries.
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/fiat3000_info.htm
And again, that is 1930 tech or about three tank generations from now.
Quote from: Logi on September 15, 2010, 07:19:28 PM
Indeed a problem of role. For infantry supporting tanks, there was no need for high speed, more weapons would have been a whole lot better. I would, too, prefer a Mark V for that role.
Odd. The Nverse Dutch reach exactly the opposite conclusion as they see multiple guns and mutual interference fire as a huge problem.
QuoteHowever, I was addressing on the premise of the desired tank was a faster one, not one with more weapons. Although I say the Renaults were not scouts, no, leave that to the real fast ones, the armored cars. It was a light tank, capable enough to go advance or with the cavalry and cause good disruption. The 37mm was, as I mentioned, an auto-gun, high RoF, intended as anti-infantry weapon.
The 37 mm shell was too small for anti-infantry work, with not enough explosive fill and fragmentation. The speed issue for a tank is to close the trench line 'quickly' behind friendly artillery fire (the infantry can run in spurts) as the volume and supply of friendly artillery fire that can disrupt that enemy trench line is limited in time.
QuoteYou are correct on the more reliable engines on the Mark V and on though, that is because if I recall correctly, the Mark V and on used purpose designed engines rather than the converted commercial or industrial engines as was norm before.
Aviation engines at that.
QuoteSide-Note: We should have a mod move this to another topic.
Maybe. I didn't expect this deep a discussion on what was supposed to be a news blurb.
==============================================================
Quote from: ctwaterman on September 15, 2010, 09:20:55 PM
I think we are looking at different roles for our different armored vehicles.
All of us are. The Nverse Dutch don't have Italian combat experience. Our cues come from Colonel Geiner and a certain Bavarian captain ally.
QuoteAs an Example; the Empire of Italia is developing the light tank and armored car with an emphasis on the armored car with a couple of machine guns or a light breach loading cannon or trench mortar style weapon. The Light tanks are for dealing with fortified hard points or small bunkers the Armored Cars for Recon or Cavalry roles such as scouting or persuit of a retreating enemy.
The Dutch see the
armored car as nice to have when you have
roads and trails, but are concerned with
cross country mobility. Namur tests show that
Dutch armored car prototypes off road are horrible.
QuoteHeavy Tanks something Italia has not worked on are now seen as something they need to aquire to assisst in breaking through enemies who have dug in in difficult terrain.
And that is something that I want to discuss with Italy.
QuoteAnd a need for a larger support element for a motorized army is found to be needed. :o
More Mechanics, more armorers and well just more logistic tail to such a formation.
Charles
Oh heck, yes. A pantserbrigade will have a maintenance battalion-not a company as originally planned.
Artillary bombardments are the bane of a tanks existance. If the ground between the two armys has been chewed up by days of heavy bombardment its a night mare for the early tanks to cross the Infantry will litterally out walk the tank across this type of terrain.
In addition by 1917/18 the German had a HV Gun mounted on truck for moving around as needed to shoot at tanks and the first Anti-Tank Rifles started making their appearances....
Charles
Quote from: ctwaterman on September 16, 2010, 07:32:18 AM
Artillary bombardments are the bane of a tanks existence. If the ground between the two armys has been chewed up by days of heavy bombardment its a night mare for the early tanks to cross the Infantry will litterally out walk the tank across this type of terrain.
In addition by 1917/18 the German had a HV Gun mounted on truck for moving around as needed to shoot at tanks and the first Anti-Tank Rifles started making their appearances....
Charles
You have the tanks. You have the artillery. You have
shock action. The combination is not days of bombardment; it is at most a sharp suppression of forward defenses that drives enemy troops to ground that lasts only while the tanks close up on the enemy positions during the disruptive bombardment to overrun the enemy trench lines. You lift final fires just as the tanks enter their own machine gun ranges. Your own fires are on the enemy trenches, not no-man's land.
As for the German gun trucks-no overhead cover and lousy cross country mobility, howitzer blast/frag does wonders to an enemy antitank gun screen. Nothing is perfect here, but you play the numbers game, pick the ground and do the recon and the assault drills by the numbers. The Germans did not stop tank assaults. They only slowed them down.
The 1 k/h is acceptable, as long as at the end of the hour the enemy trench complex is cleared, and the follow on troops include pioneers that cut routes through the crater scape. (armored bulldozers).
Quote from: damocles on September 16, 2010, 08:19:08 AM
You have the tanks. You have the artillery. You have shock action. The combination is not days of bombardment; it is at most a sharp suppression of forward defenses that drives enemy troops to ground that lasts only while the tanks close up on the enemy positions during the disruptive bombardment to overrun the enemy trench lines. You lift final fires just as the tanks enter their own machine gun ranges. Your own fires are on the enemy trenches, not no-man's land.
As for the German gun trucks-no overhead cover and lousy cross country mobility, howitzer blast/frag does wonders to an enemy antitank gun screen. Nothing is perfect here, but you play the numbers game, pick the ground and do the recon and the assault drills by the numbers. The Germans did not stop tank assaults. They only slowed them down.
The 1 k/h is acceptable, as long as at the end of the hour the enemy trench complex is cleared, and the follow on troops include pioneers that cut routes through the crater scape. (armored bulldozers).
Uhm... that's MODERN tank doctrine. That's
blitzkrieg.
Charles is painting a MUCH more accurate picture of WWI tactics- artillery, tank and infantry.
Also, both sides would indeed deliberately shell no-man's land, in addition to the unintentional 'shorts' that landed there. The disruption of the terrain and the fresh, sucking, engulfing mud caused by the bombardments was a powerful asset. It could cause extreme amounts of trouble for infantry and horses or vehicles trying to cross it.
Armored bulldozers ale also a mistaken part of your philosophy... also being a part of
blitzkrieg philosophy.
In this timeframe, we are still looking at day's long bombardment being the "effective" way of using artillery.
In fact, one could argue without a major war ala WWI (unless there has been lots of trench warfare) there would not be tanks to begin with. Tanks were basically a weapon made to beat trenches and other MG-covered defensive sites. It took a nation that was completely open to new tactics to realize that tanks were more powerful in groups then as dedicated infantry support, there primary design goal until the late 1930's
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 16, 2010, 03:58:45 PM
Quote from: damocles on September 16, 2010, 08:19:08 AM
You have the tanks. You have the artillery. You have shock action. The combination is not days of bombardment; it is at most a sharp suppression of forward defenses that drives enemy troops to ground that lasts only while the tanks close up on the enemy positions during the disruptive bombardment to overrun the enemy trench lines. You lift final fires just as the tanks enter their own machine gun ranges. Your own fires are on the enemy trenches, not no-man's land.
As for the German gun trucks-no overhead cover and lousy cross country mobility, howitzer blast/frag does wonders to an enemy antitank gun screen. Nothing is perfect here, but you play the numbers game, pick the ground and do the recon and the assault drills by the numbers. The Germans did not stop tank assaults. They only slowed them down.
The 1 k/h is acceptable, as long as at the end of the hour the enemy trench complex is cleared, and the follow on troops include pioneers that cut routes through the crater scape. (armored bulldozers).
Uhm... that's MODERN tank doctrine. That's blitzkrieg.
Charles is painting a MUCH more accurate picture of WWI tactics- artillery, tank and infantry.
Also, both sides would indeed deliberately shell no-man's land, in addition to the unintentional 'shorts' that landed there. The disruption of the terrain and the fresh, sucking, engulfing mud caused by the bombardments was a powerful asset. It could cause extreme amounts of trouble for infantry and horses or vehicles trying to cross it.
Armored bulldozers ale also a mistaken part of your philosophy... also being a part of blitzkrieg philosophy.
==============================================================
http://www.consimworld.com/newsroom/archives/morenews/inftactics/infantry.pdf
Ever hear of Emory Upton? Of course you have.
As for bulldozers...
http://www.kansasphototour.com/bulldoze.htm
Quote from: snip on September 16, 2010, 04:33:40 PM
In this time-frame, we are still looking at day's long bombardment being the "effective" way of using artillery.
a. The Dutch are experimenting after their defeat. Plus they are not rich. From where does the the stocks of ammunition come?
b. Geiner and Guderian are buddies who've worked the subject at Namur since 1917.
c. Right now we have a nice big war that teaches the 1914 lesson.
QuoteIn fact, one could argue without a major war ala WWI (unless there has been lots of trench warfare) there would not be tanks to begin with. Tanks were basically a weapon made to beat trenches and other MG-covered defensive sites. It took a nation that was completely open to new tactics to realize that tanks were more powerful in groups then as dedicated infantry support, there primary design goal until the late 1930's
d. The tank or pantserwagen is still a mobile machine gun suppressor to the Dutch. The Dutch are exercised about machine guns, having been creamed in Malaysia by the weapons and superior DKB infantry in the NOI. That is Majoor Hind's part of this equation.
QuoteEurope's military thinkers joined the bounding overwatch bandwagon a few years later. In1905, G.F.R. Henderson wrote:
Nor is it the [artillery] alone that should cover the infantry advance. ... [A] portion of the infantry should be detailed for this purpose before the remainder move forward. ... Such fire is little less effective than that of the field ... artillery. It may be less demoralizing; but, if the exact range can be ascertained, it will be more accurate, for infantry has not to contend with the technical difficulties, fuses, errors of the day, &c., of the sister arm. ... We are justified, therefore, in laying
down the secondary principle that long-range rifle fire is an important auxiliary to the artillery in covering the advance of attacking infantry. 21
pg. 14 of the PDF cited.
This is something I researched before I proposed this item. In fact I derated the actual contraptions and theories behind the proposals, because we did not have WW I in the Nverse.
QuoteWhen serving as the American military observer with the Prussian Army during the Franco-Prussian War, Lt. Gen. Philip Sheridan was asked by a high Prussian officer—very possibly the great Helmuth von Moltke himself—how he thought the US Army would do against the Prussians, to which he replied, "Grant, if given the armies of the Potomac and the Tennessee, would land in Lisbon and capture Berlin in six weeks."48
pg. 25; same PDF.
And by now, van Seik knows what he wants. Tanks, lots of tanks...and mortars, and, machine guns and stosstruppen.
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9651/mktank.th.jpg) (http://img713.imageshack.us/i/mktank.jpg/)
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Clankety clankety.
The export market is out there. FT-17s pfui!
Quote from: damocles on September 17, 2010, 11:05:16 AM
QuoteWhen serving as the American military observer with the Prussian Army during the Franco-Prussian War, Lt. Gen. Philip Sheridan was asked by a high Prussian officer—very possibly the great Helmuth von Moltke himself—how he thought the US Army would do against the Prussians, to which he replied, "Grant, if given the armies of the Potomac and the Tennessee, would land in Lisbon and capture Berlin in six weeks."48
pg. 25; same PDF.
And by now, van Seik knows what he wants. Tanks, lots of tanks...and mortars, and, machine guns and stosstruppen.
Interesting...except that Grant would be shattered on the way across the Atlantic by other naval ships. A moniter does not have the range nor the seakeeping ability to effectively cross the Atlantic AND be in fighting trim. Sure, crossing the Atlantic was done, but without all the towing sources....besides, I fail to see how Grant could defeat the goodly number (250,000+) of German troops, a equal or larger number of French troops, and some Spanish resistance, deal with partisians, and keep his supply lines open. I don't believe it's possible.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 17, 2010, 08:57:24 PM
Quote from: damocles on September 17, 2010, 11:05:16 AM
QuoteWhen serving as the American military observer with the Prussian Army during the Franco-Prussian War, Lt. Gen. Philip Sheridan was asked by a high Prussian officer—very possibly the great Helmuth von Moltke himself—how he thought the US Army would do against the Prussians, to which he replied, "Grant, if given the armies of the Potomac and the Tennessee, would land in Lisbon and capture Berlin in six weeks."48
pg. 25; same PDF.
And by now, van Seik knows what he wants. Tanks, lots of tanks...and mortars, and, machine guns and stosstruppen.
Interesting...except that Grant would be shattered on the way across the Atlantic by other naval ships. A moniter does not have the range nor the seakeeping ability to effectively cross the Atlantic AND be in fighting trim. Sure, crossing the Atlantic was done, but without all the towing sources....besides, I fail to see how Grant could defeat the goodly number (250,000+) of German troops, a equal or larger number of French troops, and some Spanish resistance, deal with partisians, and keep his supply lines open. I don't believe it's possible.
The first underlined is entirely true. Only if those 50 or so Monitors had been true BATTLESHIPS could the transports have landed the troops.
The second underlined is the fact that he actually did something like that thing? That's a fair analog description of the American Civil War.
Ocean going Monitors as classes. (http://books.google.com/books?id=ve_Xh1GPua8C&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=Ocean+going+monitors&source=bl&ots=IXQ1gP3Msh&sig=fE2X1dlbcPQ5gWn3EojHvsCIkvE&hl=en&ei=5T6UTL3FD4W0lQfiy9WnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Ocean%20going%20monitors&f=false)
CSA ironclads (http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=Sphynx-Staerkodder-Stonewall-Kotetsu-Ironclad)
I would call those auto-sinkers.
Quote from: damocles on September 17, 2010, 10:31:13 PM
I would call those auto-sinkers.
Strange, the
Stonewall was a good ship for sailing on the high seas.
She was also a holy terror- the Union sailors pissed their pants thinking of her.
I think he might be refering to Virg and similar types. I disagree that they are autosinker's if that is the case.
If we are talking cheesebox rafts, then I am with you completely (14" freeboard, really?)
You did read the history of her Cuba crossing? She had a lot of trouble in voyage; she needed a lot of work after the USN got her.
She underwent a rebuild; like some of those US Civil War "Monitors".
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Stonewall-Kotetsu.jpg/634px-Stonewall-Kotetsu.jpg)
She was still superior to any of the 1880 horrors that were US Civil War "rebuilds" (new construction), but not by much.
(http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/battleships/images/usa/m2-1.jpg)
Ah, Amphitrite. Design creep, pre-obsolescence and redesign whilst under construction. I'd love to say that we've learned those lessons, but Duke Nukem Forever would make me a liar.
(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7392/nversepeterwolf.th.jpg) (http://img409.imageshack.us/i/nversepeterwolf.jpg/)
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RFSD Peter Wolf, HOLLAND/MK Monitor laid down 1920
Displacement:
4,107 t light; 4,368 t standard; 4,560 t normal; 4,713 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
350.00 ft / 350.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 15.00 ft (normal load)
106.68 m / 106.68 m x 15.24 m x 4.57 m
Armament:
4 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (2x2 guns), 421.80lbs / 191.32kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Main guns limited to end-on fire
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,974 lbs / 895 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 227.50 ft / 69.34 m 8.49 ft / 2.59 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
2nd: 2.17" / 55 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 6.10" / 155 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 3,594 shp / 2,681 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 345 tons
Complement:
276 - 360
Cost:
£0.871 million / $3.484 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 247 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 1,450 tons, 31.8 %
- Belts: 495 tons, 10.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 215 tons, 4.7 %
- Armour Deck: 704 tons, 15.4 %
- Conning Tower: 36 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 126 tons, 2.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,784 tons, 39.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 453 tons, 9.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 11.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,511 lbs / 3,407 Kg = 17.8 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 87 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.73
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.608
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.58 ft / 6.27 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
- Stern: 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
- Average freeboard: 13.70 ft / 4.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.2 %
Waterplane Area: 12,895 Square feet or 1,198 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 95 lbs/sq ft or 464 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.98
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
500 tons misc.
250 tons fire control
50 tons radios.
50 tons torpedoes
150 tons misc. leftover
Holland is submitting a request for tender for four of these type ships or better for Riverine service. Completion to be NLT 1H1921
He may have done it, vs. an underfed, undersupplied army that relied mostly on capturing artillery from the Union. With all said troops in a given location, and not seperated by mountains, and with those troops well supplied, he couldn't have done it.
I'm referring to both, actually. The CSA ships had nowhere near the speed and range, and the US moniters, yeah. Both sides had maybe 2-3 ships that could cross, but 5-6 ships isn't enough to escort a convoy of 250,000 troops+ supplies across the Atlantic.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 18, 2010, 07:04:25 AM
He may have done it, vs. an underfed, undersupplied army that relied mostly on capturing artillery from the Union. With all said troops in a given location, and not seperated by mountains, and with those troops well supplied, he couldn't have done it.
I'm referring to both, actually. The CSA ships had nowhere near the speed and range, and the US moniters, yeah. Both sides had maybe 2-3 ships that could cross, but 5-6 ships isn't enough to escort a convoy of 250,000 troops+ supplies across the Atlantic.
http://www.civilwarartillery.com/manufacturers.htm
Look under the Confederacy. That was more than Italy, Spain, Portugal and all the the German states, except Austria and Prussia, could do
combined.
France, Austria, and Britain could each do more, but they didn't have the generals or the staffs, at the time, to use the potential properly in a land war. (Krimea and Austrian wars against Prussia and Italy, plus the French disaster in Mexico are the examples).
The Prussians are the only ones who have the organizational and logistical chops to take on the Armies of the Potomac and Tennessee in the 1864-1865 time frame in Europe in a land war . I don't agree that Grant could have beaten the German first team, though. I think Moltke's goon squad (staff) was too good. About the others? No doubt at all. Their actual results show me that they were tactical babes in the Wilderness (pun intended).
May be more, but guess how many of them made 6-10 cannon a piece, then called it a day?
Grant could have beaten them with one Confederate and one Yankee army... steamrolling the Prussians.
Lee, and a properly supplied Army of Northern Virginia, could have killed them with a million papercuts.
Moltke could have stopped neither, not even with all his staff... especially if Lee still had Jackson on his.
Also, I'm aware that Stonewall had problems with leaks developing- most of the oceangoing ironclads did- but she gave excellent service to both nations... actually becoming the foundation of the Nippon Kaigun as we know it. Without her, there would have been no sun to rise over the Pacific.
Given the logistical problems even people as meticulous as McClellan had, let alone the more famous Marching Generals, I doubt very much that an American army could have supplied itself from a Lisbon beachhead all the way to Berlin.
Quote from: Laertes on September 18, 2010, 09:16:19 AM
Given the logistical problems even people as meticulous as McClellan had, let alone the more famous Marching Generals, I doubt very much that an American army could have supplied itself from a Lisbon beachhead all the way to Berlin.
Europe had better roads and forage than the US. Sherman would have felt right at home.
But would Europe have felt at home after Sherman got done with it...??????
Realistically Europe has better roads but the USA at least the north had better railroads at the time. Europe you need to use the Canal and river networks. In addition the number of river crossings and mountains between Portugal/Spain and Berlin is daunting.
Charles
Quote from: ctwaterman on September 18, 2010, 10:56:26 AM
But would Europe have felt at home after Sherman got done with it...??????
Depends on what he leaves standing.
QuoteRealistically Europe has better roads but the USA at least the north had better railroads at the time. Europe you need to use the Canal and river networks. In addition the number of river crossings and mountains between Portugal/Spain and Berlin is daunting.
Charles
http://americancivilwar.com/vicks.html
Interesting little discussion
My opinion :
I am not a fan of Sheridan, his handling of the scouting and failures to guide and screen the infantry between the Wilderness and Spotsylvania was not acceptable. Indeed he was reprimanded by Meade, and went whining to Grant. Letting his force get surprised by Early at Cedar Creek is also not accepatable.
He wins acclaim because he beat Stuart at Yellow Tavern, but by that time he had a larger, fresher, veteran force, equipped with repeaters, and did eventually beat Early's much smaller force in the Shenandoah.
A good Brigadier or Division commander, I don't think he was adequate for independent Corps command, and I simply would not accept his evaluation of army level strategic combat as well thought out and accurate.
As for Grant, I think he was very good, borderline great. Persistance was a virtue, and he appreciated attrition, supply, initiative and mobility. All very good traits in a commander.
But as overall commander , his oversight of the Army of Potomac wound up with Burnside's Corps, Sheridan's Cavalry and the AoP not being well coordinated. Despite having twice the forces, and better fed and equipped, he suffered heavy losses and was caught in the Wilderness- see above for Spotsylvania, nearly was trapped at North Anna, Cold harbor isn't a feather, though the march to Petersburg was.
But considering it took 8 weeks from the Start of the Wilderness to Petersburg, a distance far less than Lisbon-Berlin, and against a much smaller force in less defensible terrain... Sheridan's claim is simple BS.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on September 18, 2010, 12:02:52 PM
Interesting little discussion
My opinion :
I am not a fan of Sheridan, his handling of the scouting and failures to guide and screen the infantry between the Wilderness and Spotsylvania was not acceptable. Indeed he was reprimanded by Meade, and went whining to Grant. Letting his force get surprised by Early at Cedar Creek is also not acceptable.
1. No cavalry on Earth could have operated in the Wilderness then and succeeded. The fact that Union cavalry actually tried to pass through that JUNGLE does them credit. I'm surprised that Grant was able to cross the river there and forced Lee back-especially after he, Grant, was badly flanked.
2. Remember that although Sheridan is the premier cavalryman of the Civil War (Forrest? pfui!) he was actually an infantry commander by training. Wilson shares a lot of the blame here for failing to push forward along the correct axes as Meade ordered. The cavalry he, Wilson, commanded got LOST. (No maps). People forget that the US was not mapped well in those days, and that what maps the US Army Corps of Engineers provided as late as 1865 were complete jokes.
3. The Savo Island Disease(Kasserine Pass Disease if you are the US Army), where the absence of the key American commander at a critical point, and an enemy surprise attack throws the American force's junior commanders into confusion, is certainly present at Cedar Creek, but what was the end result? Sheridan destroyed Early after a meaningless initial reverse. How does Sheridan get the feather here, and Grant get laurels for Shiloh? Give the "Bantam" some credit.
Quote
He wins acclaim because he beat Stuart at Yellow Tavern, but by that time he had a larger, fresher, veteran force, equipped with repeaters, and did eventually beat Early's much smaller force in the Shenandoah.
1. The numbers were 2/1 with Stuart having carbine-armed cavalry and no artillery-which artillery Sheridan had, fortunately. The battle was a misuse of Union cavalry in popular history reported, as the AotP desperately needed its screen to slow down the ANV: so the popular view is that the actual raid was pointless.
2. BUT...a. the Confederate cavalry was disrupted at a point where the actual result was that Lee was blind as well as Grant. Stuart was killed (never underestimate the value of propaganda). b. Suppose Rommel had been killed before Auchinleck had to go up into First Alamein? We would be singing the praises of the Auk instead of Monty. Early, as a replacement for the incompetent Stuart, was actually an ANV command improvement as Arnim or Thoma might have been over Rommel in the DAK! Command disruption is a valid victory outcome here. The morale difference here achieved, was also crushing. The Confederate cavalry now knew it was whipped, and would never beat Sheridan-ever.
2. See my comment about Cedar Creek.
QuoteA good Brigadier or Division commander, I don't think he was adequate for independent Corps command, and I simply would not accept his evaluation of army level strategic combat as well thought out and accurate.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/SheridanShenadoah.htm
You are wrong.
QuoteAs for Grant, I think he was very good, borderline great. Persistance was a virtue, and he appreciated attrition, supply, initiative and mobility. All very good traits in a commander.
I already said that the Germans would beat Grant. Nothing I've seen here changes that assessment.
QuoteBut as overall commander , his oversight of the Army of Potomac wound up with Burnside's Corps, Sheridan's Cavalry and the AoP not being well coordinated. Despite having twice the forces, and better fed and equipped, he suffered heavy losses and was caught in the Wilderness- see above for Spotsylvania, nearly was trapped at North Anna, Cold harbor isn't a feather, though the march to Petersburg was.
1. The PDF I cited earlier explains what he was up against as to the art of war. The miracle is that with Granny Lee throwing up earthworks everywhere that Grant still turned those works no less than eleven times and kept driving Lee back. The casualties were 2 attackers for every defender, as opposed to the 7-1 expected.
QuoteBut considering it took 8 weeks from the Start of the Wilderness to Petersburg, a distance far less than Lisbon-Berlin, and against a much smaller force in less defensible terrain... Sheridan's claim is simple BS.
What about from the German border to Paris with a bumbler like Nappie III as defender/commander? Sheridan was qualified to make the call. I don't agree with him, but he was a proven general. If Burnside had said it, then I would agree with you as to incompetence.
If it took 6 weeks for Grant to hit Cold Harbor, a distance of maybe 150 miles from D.C., how long do you think it would take him to hit Berlin, at least 650 miles from Lisbon, with at least 8x more troops against him.
The same time it took him from Cairo, Illinois, from where he started; to get to Richmond.
Quote from: damocles on September 18, 2010, 01:29:44 PM
The same time it took him from Cairo, Illinois, from where he started; to get to Richmond.
LOL... you either underestimate the value of supplies, or greatly overestimate Grant's abilities.
Remember that by the time that Sherman was turned loose on the Confederates were suffering from massive shortages- it's the only way that Sherman managed to make the headway that he did into the Deep South. Had the Confederates been as well-supplied as the Germans would be on their home turf... well, Sherman likely wouldn't make it into Spain, much less to Berlin.
Contra-wise, had the Confederates been properly supplied, Grant would have never made Richmond. I know from family writings what kind of situation that Confederate forces in the area were facing- Grant was simply slitting the throat of an animal already mortally wounded. The Confederate Army would have been defeated by starvation and material shortages in only a few months had Lee not surrendered. I think all the 'Miracles' you attribute to Grant's genius in earlier posts are more likely the fault of Confederate supply shortages than the natural talent of Grant.
Quote from: DamoclesI already said that the Germans would beat Grant. Nothing I've seen here changes that assessment.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 18, 2010, 01:51:54 PM
Quote from: damocles on September 18, 2010, 01:29:44 PM
The same time it took him from Cairo, Illinois, from where he started; to get to Richmond.
LOL... you either underestimate the value of supplies, or greatly overestimate Grant's abilities.
Remember that by the time that Sherman was turned loose on the Confederates were suffering from massive shortages- it's the only way that Sherman managed to make the headway that he did into the Deep South. Had the Confederates been as well-supplied as the Germans would be on their home turf... well, Sherman likely wouldn't make it into Spain, much less to Berlin.
Contra-wise, had the Confederates been properly supplied, Grant would have never made Richmond. I know from family writings what kind of situation that Confederate forces in the area were facing- Grant was simply slitting the throat of an animal already mortally wounded. The Confederate Army would have been defeated by starvation and material shortages in only a few months had Lee not surrendered.
Quote1. The PDF I cited earlier explains what he was up against as to the art of war. The miracle is that with Granny Lee throwing up earthworks everywhere that Grant still turned those works no less than eleven times and kept driving Lee back. The casualties were 2 attackers for every defender, as opposed to the 7-1 expected.
Quote
QuoteBut considering it took 8 weeks from the Start of the Wilderness to Petersburg, a distance far less than Lisbon-Berlin, and against a much smaller force in less defensible terrain... Sheridan's claim is simple BS.
What about from the German border to Paris with a bumbler like Nappie III as defender/commander? Sheridan was qualified to make the call. I don't agree with him, but he was a proven general. If Burnside had said it, then I would agree with you as to incompetence.
I too have family papers, from great great gramps, from Shiloh to Vicksburg; that describes how Grant started to cut that throat.
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2935/mktank1.th.jpg) (http://img138.imageshack.us/i/mktank1.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Clankety clankety.
Major Hind, fresh back from his little trip, watches the contraption forge the artificial river (a canal) at the Namur test range.
"Where's Colonel Geiner? This is his project." he asks.
POM! POM! POM! POM! POM! POM!
The BRNO representative replies: "He's missing along with van Seik; otherwise I would talk to them, instead of someone like you."
Majoor Hind , swallowing hios anger: "Okay, so talk to me. Why this machine? I thought you, idiots, worked on the Mark IV. This seems sort of 'odd' based on what we learned in exercises, before I left. I thought we decided that armored cars were cheaper and better than pantserettes for us, and that we would try for an in-between wagen as a standard pantserwagen instead of the GBW Is?"
BRNO flake: "We need to get something out to the NOI troopen now the way things go . Besides we need it elsewhere for you know what."
Hind: "Well that explains all the crude flat square plates, all those bolts, instead of rivets, and the very simple rolled sheet steel over the steel box construction I see. I suppose the BRNO engine you use is an aircraft inline six?"
BRNO flake: "Actually its an MK, Zhandong V-6 aero-engine..." Embarrassed: "The MK are ahead of us in ICE tech as well as small arms...you see..."
Quote from: damocles on September 18, 2010, 02:00:59 PMI too have family papers, from great great gramps, from Shiloh to Vicksburg; that describes how Grant started to cut that throat.
The throat wasn't cut by Grant... the Union Navy wielded the knife.
*sigh*
Without the naval blockade, Grant would have simply thrown masses of men against superior tactics and well-supplied troops. The War Between the States would have been more akin to murder than war had the Confederacy been able to supply from Europe. It was bad enough for the Union even with the Confederate armies under-supplied, starving, and barefoot; Confederate forces still inflicted more casualties and won more battles.
You are apparently misunderstanding what I'm saying- you're saying Grant would loose to the Germans.
I'm saying that Grant would die on the beaches without ever getting to wipe the sand off his boots.
That being said... the tank looks like someone tried to build a Bradley AFV in 1920.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 18, 2010, 02:59:46 PM
Quote from: damocles on September 18, 2010, 02:00:59 PMI too have family papers, from great great gramps, from Shiloh to Vicksburg; that describes how Grant started to cut that throat.
The throat wasn't cut by Grant... the Union Navy wielded the knife.
*sigh*
Who was it that suggested to Porter to run the Vicksburg batteries? Who was it that conducted the Port Royal landings and managed the campaign against Johnson towards Jackson?
http://www.nps.gov/history/abpp/battles/ms008.htm
QuoteWithout the naval blockade, Grant would have simply thrown masses of men against superior tactics and well-supplied troops. The War Between the States would have been more akin to murder than war had the Confederacy been able to supply from Europe. It was bad enough for the Union even with the Confederate armies under-supplied, starving, and barefoot; Confederate forces still inflicted more casualties and won more battles.
http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1257
What blockade was that again, sir?
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-6f.htm
CSS Florida.
QuoteYou are apparently misunderstanding what I'm saying- you're saying Grant would loose to the Germans. I'm saying that Grant would die on the beaches without ever getting to wipe the sand off his boots.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/VicksburgCampaignAprilJuly63.png
Let me ALSO quote someone.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 18, 2010, 08:17:27 AM
Grant could have beaten them with one Confederate and one Yankee army... steamrolling the Prussians.
Lee, and a properly supplied Army of Northern Virginia, could have killed them with a million papercuts.
Moltke could have stopped neither, not even with all his staff... especially if Lee still had Jackson on his.
Also, I'm aware that Stonewall had problems with leaks developing- most of the oceangoing ironclads did- but she gave excellent service to both nations... actually becoming the foundation of the Nippon Kaigun as we know it. Without her, there would have been no sun to rise over the Pacific.
QuoteThat being said... the tank looks like someone tried to build a Bradley AFV in 1920.
That tank was based off the Fiat 2000 with a couple of design changes as noted here:
Quote from: damocles on September 14, 2010, 06:40:00 AM
The Italians built one in 1917 called the Fiat 2000.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/ItalianTanks.html
Lighten by ten tons, and cut down the top deck by one full meter with the same engine. Use a Holt tractor as the underdesign.
Quote
Fiat 2000 - Model 17
The first Italian tank. It was conceived by Fiat as a private venture in October 1916. The first prototype was ready in June 1917. Fiat donated 2 tanks to Italian Army in February 1918. Total production until the end of 1919. encompassed 6 vehicles. Arguably the finest heavy tank built in WW1 and a great "what if...". The Fiat 2000 never saw combat. For more detail, go to: TANKS! e-Magazine Winter 2001 Issue #2
Specifications Crew 10
Engine 240hp - gasoline
Weight 40 tons
Speed 4.5 - 6mph (depending on the source)
Armament 6 x MG, 1 x 65mm Main Gun
Length 24' 3"
Width 10' 2"
Height 12' 5"
Armor 15 - 20mm.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 14, 2010, 08:07:05 AM
Not too far off for something with only a half-inch of armor... speed or otherwise.
Easily knocked out by anything over a .50 caliber round, but a real pain in the ass for infantry to handle alone (as heavy machine guns were still kind of 'special' about now).
Quote from: damocles on September 18, 2010, 10:48:52 PM
What blockade was that again, sir?
Uh, THIS one... you know, the on that killed 95% of the Confederacy's revenue!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_blockade
And man-on man, supplied equally, Grant would have attrition-ed the Germans to death.
Trying to fight an invasion, his attrition warfare strategy would have killed him before he saw green grass.
Quote from: damocles on September 18, 2010, 10:48:52 PM
QuoteThat being said... the tank looks like someone tried to build a Bradley AFV in 1920.
That tank was based off the Fiat 2000 with a couple of design changes as noted here:
Quote from: damocles on September 14, 2010, 06:40:00 AM
The Italians built one in 1917 called the Fiat 2000.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/ItalianTanks.html
Lighten by ten tons, and cut down the top deck by one full meter with the same engine. Use a Holt tractor as the underdesign.
Quote
Fiat 2000 - Model 17
The first Italian tank. It was conceived by Fiat as a private venture in October 1916. The first prototype was ready in June 1917. Fiat donated 2 tanks to Italian Army in February 1918. Total production until the end of 1919. encompassed 6 vehicles. Arguably the finest heavy tank built in WW1 and a great "what if...". The Fiat 2000 never saw combat. For more detail, go to: TANKS! e-Magazine Winter 2001 Issue #2
Specifications Crew 10
Engine 240hp - gasoline
Weight 40 tons
Speed 4.5 - 6mph (depending on the source)
Armament 6 x MG, 1 x 65mm Main Gun
Length 24' 3"
Width 10' 2"
Height 12' 5"
Armor 15 - 20mm.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 14, 2010, 08:07:05 AM
Not too far off for something with only a half-inch of armor... speed or otherwise.
Easily knocked out by anything over a .50 caliber round, but a real pain in the ass for infantry to handle alone (as heavy machine guns were still kind of 'special' about now).
D... IT LOOKS LIKE A BRADLEY- ya know, superficially visually resembles one
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 18, 2010, 11:05:08 PM
Quote from: damocles on September 18, 2010, 10:48:52 PM
What blockade was that again, sir?
Uh, THIS one... you know, the on that killed 95% of the Confederacy's revenue!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_blockade
And man-on man, supplied equally, Grant would have attrition-ed the Germans to death.
Trying to fight an invasion, his attrition warfare strategy would have killed him before he saw green grass.
The thing about that is that we assume that Grant could not land at Lisbon or that the Germans could sustain themselves in Portugal. (He can. If Scott can fight in Mexico in 1848 or Grant in Mississippi in 1863 then he can duplicate Wellington).
The Union imposed its "blockade" by actually landing and seizing Confederate ports (about a good half of the Federal armies did this with half their combat operations, when you add the Civil War fighting all up), so Grant coming ashore is not the problem.
Sustainability (assuming the British get involved) is the problem. Otherwise, its a French Marine versus USN situation, then. The rest of the Euro navies are frankly jokes, or defacto US allies (Russia). I'm not convinced the USN could win that fight against the French Marine, 1860-1872.
http://navalwarfare.blogspot.com/2010/01/uss-new-ironsides.html
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lEtkuz8ScYM/S1W5bRn0STI/AAAAAAAAC-s/X6_Mz4RByvg/s1600/USS%2BNew%2BIronsides%2B10.jpg)
Notice US 1861 state of the art.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Solferino%281861%29.jpg)
That is a French battleship, the Solferino. By 1872 they had much better in the water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Oc%C3%A9an_%281870%29
If Grant is going anywhere near Europe he needs THIS:
(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/1530/usspuritan.jpg) (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/usspuritan.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Built in quantity (at least 20 of them)
Hypothetical of course
Quote from: damocles on September 18, 2010, 10:48:52 PM
QuoteThat being said... the tank looks like someone tried to build a Bradley AFV in 1920.
That tank was based off the Fiat 2000 with a couple of design changes as noted here:
Quote from: damocles on September 14, 2010, 06:40:00 AM
The Italians built one in 1917 called the Fiat 2000.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/ItalianTanks.html
Lighten by ten tons, and cut down the top deck by one full meter with the same engine. Use a Holt tractor as the underdesign.
Quote
Fiat 2000 - Model 17
The first Italian tank. It was conceived by Fiat as a private venture in October 1916. The first prototype was ready in June 1917. Fiat donated 2 tanks to Italian Army in February 1918. Total production until the end of 1919. encompassed 6 vehicles. Arguably the finest heavy tank built in WW1 and a great "what if...". The Fiat 2000 never saw combat. For more detail, go to: TANKS! e-Magazine Winter 2001 Issue #2
Specifications Crew 10
Engine 240hp - gasoline
Weight 40 tons
Speed 4.5 - 6mph (depending on the source)
Armament 6 x MG, 1 x 65mm Main Gun
Length 24' 3"
Width 10' 2"
Height 12' 5"
Armor 15 - 20mm.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 14, 2010, 08:07:05 AM
Not too far off for something with only a half-inch of armor... speed or otherwise.
Easily knocked out by anything over a .50 caliber round, but a real pain in the ass for infantry to handle alone (as heavy machine guns were still kind of 'special' about now).
QuoteD... IT LOOKS LIKE A BRADLEY- ya know, superficially visually resembles one
Well, in engineering, there is a saying. Common problem (resist MG fire and shell splinters) x CHEAP= common shaped solution. Those Fiat engineers were not stupid in 1916.
Quote from: damocles link=topic=4967.msg65254#msg65254
1. No cavalry on Earth could have operated in the Wilderness then and succeeded. The fact that Union cavalry actually tried to pass through that JUNGLE does them credit. I'm surprised that Grant was able to cross the river there and forced Lee back-especially after he, Grant, was badly flanked.
1&2. The failure was from the Wilderness to Spotsylvania, simple things like screening and posting guides. The poor maps made this more critical. To me, this failure of Sheridan's cavalry to provide essential functions to the AoP would indicate he wasn't the premier cavalryman of the Civil war, he should have been left as an Infantry Corps commander.
3. Grant gets the blame for Shiloh, but I excuse it as early in his career as a general, he improved as he learned. Cedar Creek was late in Sheridan's career, and while- like Shiloh- it came out acceptably in the end for him, it wasn't really due to his tactical brilliance so much as superior forces and the ability to rally. Even that comes out poorly, "One of Early's key subordinates, Maj. Gen. John B. Gordon, in his 1904 memoirs, attested that it was Early's decision to halt the attack for six hours in the early afternoon, and not disorganization in the ranks, that led to the rout that took place in the afternoon"- Early blamed it on the troops being exhausted and stopping to loot the camp, either way Sheridan was granted the gift of time. Early was later relieved of command.
Quote
1. The numbers were 2/1 with Stuart having carbine-armed cavalry and no artillery-which artillery Sheridan had, fortunately. The battle was a misuse of Union cavalry in popular history reported, as the AotP desperately needed its screen to slow down the ANV: so the popular view is that the actual raid was pointless.
Yes, 2:1 in Sheridan's favor, and the Union were better equipped with both the repeaters and the artillery. Note that while Sheridan failed at Spotsylvania- thus loosing the edge Grant gained, his gallavanting off to Yellow Tavern coincides with the Union army walking into the trap a North Anna- only illness in the Confederate command prevented disaster. Sheridan rejoined Grant on the 24th, two days after the start of North Anna.
At this point in the war, the Confederate cavalry was overmatched, little to do with Sheridan. Even so, the Confederate cavalry could still contest the issue after that, and did repulse the Union Cav at Haw's Shop and Trevillian Station after Yellow Tavern.
Wade Hampton replaced Stuart, not Early- I don't believe he was ever the Cavalry commander. And claiming that Stuart was incompentent is an odd way to highlight the importance of beating him...or explain why it took until 1864.
Quote
You are wrong
Frequently, but I don't think so in this case :)
I asserted that "I don't think he was adequate for independent Corps command"
Which Is correct, as I don't believe he was.
The pdf does not show that Sheridan was adequate for independent command. The PDF shows he was given one- and won battles when the odds were 3:1 in his favor, yet still made twin fundemental errors- First believing he had driven Early completely from the valley to extent he started transferring troops, and second allowing himself to be surprised at Cedar Creek. Somehow despite his superior force, including 3 divisions of cavalry, he appears to have failed to maintain contact with the foe and the initiative.
Quote
The PDF I cited earlier explains what he was up against as to the art of war. The miracle is that with Granny Lee throwing up earthworks everywhere that Grant still turned those works no less than eleven times and kept driving Lee back. The casualties were 2 attackers for every defender, as opposed to the 7-1 expected.
I gave Grant credit for persistence, heck I called him 'Very good'. There are some flaws at the high command level, and the way he coordinated Meade/Burnside and Sheridan was not terribly good. As for a 7-1 "expected" - that is silly as it simply wasn't seen on a large scale - not at Cold Harbor, not a Fredericksburg - only on smaller scales such as the field before Marye's Heights. However, Wilderness wasn't against Lee's earthworks and he took 3:2 casualties, same as Spotsylvania. Fredericksberg was 2:1, Cold Harbor 3:1. So 7-1 is just not a reasonable expectation based on actual battle results.
Quote
What about from the German border to Paris with a bumbler like Nappie III as defender/commander? Sheridan was qualified to make the call. I don't agree with him, but he was a proven general. If Burnside had said it, then I would agree with you as to incompetence.
Sheridan was better than Burnside, but folks forget that Burnside argued against being promoted, he knew wasn't up for Army command...and then proved it.
We apparently disagree that Sheridan was qualified to make the call. I see nothing in his Civil War performance to indicate a grand view of the strategic picture. His failure to appreciate the distance, terrain, supply difficulties, and the presence of large forts at strategic points ...in addition to the various armies..lead me to believe the statement was mere bluster, not a well considered rational and logical response.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on September 19, 2010, 02:24:37 AM
Quote from: damocles link=topic=4967.msg65254#msg65254
1. No cavalry on Earth could have operated in the Wilderness then and succeeded. The fact that Union cavalry actually tried to pass through that JUNGLE does them credit. I'm surprised that Grant was able to cross the river there and forced Lee back-especially after he, Grant, was badly flanked.
1&2. The failure was from the Wilderness to Spotsylvania, simple things like screening and posting guides. The poor maps made this more critical. To me, this failure of Sheridan's cavalry to provide essential functions to the AoP would indicate he wasn't the premier cavalryman of the Civil war, he should have been left as an Infantry Corps commander.
There are some things you have to know about the Northern Virginia around Richmond of 1864. That place had some plantation cultivation and it had a road network of sorts and small communities dotted where the deer and wagon trails crossed;p but aside from that, it was a hellhole of wilderness growth scrub forests, dust terrain, and swamp. The soil, today, has a century and half of modern agriculture tendure and loaming to build it up to where it can support dairy and feed crops, but back then it was useless, as either a food producer, or cultivation for anything; but trees, brush, weeds (think tobacco and cotton as they genuinely are.). The ground today, churned up by traffic, turns to a gluey clay and will not hold a tank or a horse. It isn't the Northern European Plain at all. It is recently raised Atlantic ocean seafloor with all that geologically means.
Now what that means to an American army in 1864, that still struggles with the transition between Napoleonic and modern infantry tactics, is that their cavalry (the last thing on their minds as they try to learn how to transition from formal infantry line of battle to open skirmish order), is going to have severe terrain problems, because I don't care what anyone claims, unless you really know basic horsemanship; you are going to have a lot of trouble just riding a horse through those close packed woods.
That means you are more of less stuck and channeled on the roads and trails, doesn't it?
Now then...
You are US Grant and you just finished with a debacle (Chattanooga) where you played rescue the Army of the Tennessee. You have the thankless task of being Lincoln's fire brigade. Something goes wrong, Lincoln sends you to fix it. That was what Grant did at this point in the Civil War. He babysat troubled Union Armies and mentored Union generals in trouble so that they could learn how not to get beaten. He did this with Hooker, Meade, Thomas, Sherman, and every lousy corps commander in the Army of the Potomac, ALL of them.
So what did he find with the AoP cavalry when he looked in on Meade? He found it had been beefed up by Hooker to actually be the recon force that Hooker wanted, but did not get at Chancellorsville, and that "Kill Cavalry" Kilpatrick and then that IDIOT Pleasanton had more or less misused it and ruined it since.
Grant fired Pleasanton and looked for the meanest son of a _____ general he could find that he knew, to whip the horse arm into shape in a hurry, because he was going to need them when he chased Lee.
That man was Sheridan.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/529697/phil-sheridan-in-the-civil-war-bad-boy-or-bad-g
In summary, Sheridan took an arm over that was nothing like the cavalry the western Union armies enjoyed and he made those Eastern tyros horsemen. By Appomattox they were able alone, to slice the ANV in two by a simple road movement and force Lee to quit. Grant and Meade were still a half day away when Sheridan caught the rebels and split that column. He hung on until the Union infantry arrived ten hours late.
Quote3. Grant gets the blame for Shiloh, but I excuse it as early in his career as a general, he improved as he learned. Cedar Creek was late in Sheridan's career, and while- like Shiloh- it came out acceptably in the end for him, it wasn't really due to his tactical brilliance so much as superior forces and the ability to rally. Even that comes out poorly, "One of Early's key subordinates, Maj. Gen. John B. Gordon, in his 1904 memoirs, attested that it was Early's decision to halt the attack for six hours in the early afternoon, and not disorganization in the ranks, that led to the rout that took place in the afternoon"- Early blamed it on the troops being exhausted and stopping to loot the camp, either way Sheridan was granted the gift of time. Early was later relieved of command.
It was Early's job to organize pursuit. Sheridan, when he arrived, found the Army of the Shenandoah scattered, no command structure at all, just a mob. Six hours later he had it in good tactical order and routing out Early's men. John Gordan was a decent general, but he's also prone to make excuses, exaggerations, and is a known liar in his memoirs, as what he says bears no resemblance to reality as we know it now. Finally, give a good general six hours and you deserve the results. Early got what he deserved.
Quote
Quote1. The numbers were 2/1 with Stuart having carbine-armed cavalry and no artillery-which artillery Sheridan had, fortunately. The battle was a misuse of Union cavalry in popular history reported, as the AotP desperately needed its screen to slow down the ANV: so the popular view is that the actual raid was pointless.
Yes, 2:1 in Sheridan's favor, and the Union were better equipped with both the repeaters and the artillery. Note that while Sheridan failed at Spotsylvania- thus loosing the edge Grant gained, his gallavanting off to Yellow Tavern coincides with the Union army walking into the trap a North Anna- only illness in the Confederate command prevented disaster. Sheridan rejoined Grant on the 24th, two days after the start of North Anna.
Again, you have to know the ground and the way American cavalry fought. They were dragoons, not lancers, or cuirassiers. They tended to dismount and fight with the carbine or repeater from cover. If they fought ahorse it was with the revolver, not the saber.
(http://www.hmdb.org/Photos/10/Photo10645o.bmp)
That is UPHILL, chasing Confederates all the way.
As for North Anna:
http://civilwar.bluegrass.net/battles-campaigns/1864/640523-26.html
Grant was given his day's grace, and Lee paid for it. Note also, that for once Wilson did as ordered, and this cavalry ruse completely befuddled the Confederates as to Grant's intentions. They (Lee) looked left while he moved past them toward Cold Harbor.
QuoteAt this point in the war, the Confederate cavalry was overmatched, little to do with Sheridan. Even so, the Confederate cavalry could still contest the issue after that, and did repulse the Union Cav at Haw's Shop and Trevillian Station after Yellow Tavern.
http://www.johnsmilitaryhistory.com/haws.html
Again, know the terrain and the methods of combat, plus the fact that
the Confederates this time had numbers, infantry support and artillery and the Union did not. Gregg whipped them nonetheless. After seven hours the Confederates ran. Gregg held the fords as ordered. Custer flanked the rebels and peeled the South Carolinians like an orange. Note here, that it was Sheridan who sent Custer in to reinforce Gregg with those exact orders he gave Custer.
QuoteWade Hampton replaced Stuart, not Early- I don't believe he was ever the Cavalry commander. And claiming that Stuart was incompetent is an odd way to highlight the importance of beating him...or explain why it took until 1864.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trevilian_Station
With IDIOTS, like Custer, as your subordinates; you have to ask why it took a Sheridan to beat Stuart, Hampton, Fitzhugh Lee, and Early? Note also that Trevillian Station was a success and that Sheridan won and HE was the reason why he won.
Quote
Quote
You are wrong
Frequently, but I don't think so in this case :)
I asserted that "I don't think he was adequate for independent Corps command"
Which is correct, as I don't believe he was.
The pdf does not show that Sheridan was adequate for independent command. The PDF shows he was given one- and won battles when the odds were 3:1 in his favor, yet still made twin fundamental errors- First believing he had driven Early completely from the valley to extent he started transferring troops, and second allowing himself to be surprised at Cedar Creek. Somehow despite his superior force, including 3 divisions of cavalry, he appears to have failed to maintain contact with the foe and the initiative.
You misread the campaign as described then. Sheridan had two missions, neutralize Early's raids into Pennsylvania and Maryland, and burn the Shenandoah to the ground. He was not supposed to chase Early, but make Early chase him. That was the whole Cedar Creek thing in a nutshell. About the troops thing: when Butler got himself trapped in the Bermuda Hundred, and Grant needed troops to rescue that fool (see Fire Brigade reference above), was Sheridan supposed to say no? He thought it was possible so he sent Grant the extras. Was he wrong? No, as it turns out, he was not, as he beat Early with what he had left. Also do not confuse Hunter and Wright debacles with Sheridan. In addition, half of the Confederate cavalry in Virginia was with Early in the Valley. It kept getting beat up by Sheridan's horsemen at places like Winchester, Fisher's Hill and especially Tom's Brook where the Confederates were really mauled.
Quote"That's General Custer, the Yanks are so proud of,
and I intend to give him the best whipping today that he ever got,"
Confederate Major General Tom Rosser on the eve of the battle.
Rosser ran into Torbert's brigades instead, Custer made his late appearance and Rosser was forced to run for his life.
http://www.nps.gov/history/hps/abpp/shenandoah/svs3-14.html
Notice where Sheridan was?
Quote
Quote
The PDF I cited earlier explains what he was up against as to the art of war. The miracle is that with Granny Lee throwing up earthworks everywhere that Grant still turned those works no less than eleven times and kept driving Lee back. The casualties were 2 attackers for every defender, as opposed to the 7-1 expected.
I gave Grant credit for persistence, heck I called him 'Very good'. There are some flaws at the high command level, and the way he coordinated Meade/Burnside and Sheridan was not terribly good. As for a 7-1 "expected" - that is silly as it simply wasn't seen on a large scale - not at Cold Harbor, not a Fredericksburg - only on smaller scales such as the field before Marye's Heights. However, Wilderness wasn't against Lee's earthworks and he took 3:2 casualties, same as Spotsylvania. Fredericksberg was 2:1, Cold Harbor 3:1. So 7-1 is just not a reasonable expectation based on actual battle results.
Not so fast, shall we? The
point I made her,e is that if Grant (Meade) had stuck to McClellan/Hooker tactics and ways of doing things; those losses were to be expected in the present 1864 scheme of things. By now, the boys in blue knew about covering fire, short rushes, and shooting from cover. The fighting in the Wilderness was from breastwork and dead ground to dead ground for the most part. The AoP did not have to be told to dig in when they made contact with the ANV. As soon as the shooting started, the infantry became prairie dogs.
(http://www.old-picture.com/civil-war/pictures/Wilderness-Battle.jpg)
http://www.usa-civil-war.com/Wilderness/wilderness.html
Where it was in the open, it was fought at those intersections I mentioned and
it was bloody close as well as near equal murder.
QuoteQuote
What about from the German border to Paris with a bumbler like Nappie III as defender/commander? Sheridan was qualified to make the call. I don't agree with him, but he was a proven general. If Burnside had said it, then I would agree with you as to incompetence.
Sheridan was better than Burnside, but folks forget that Burnside argued against being promoted, he knew wasn't up for Army command...and then proved it.
What Burnside was, was incapable of adapting to changes in plans. At Fredericksburg (a dreadful battle) and at the Battle of the Crater, he actually drew up some good plans, but failed to adapt when (weather) at Fredericksburg, and (politics, don't give the specially trained African American shock troops the glory) at the Crater threw his timing off. Instead of rolling with the changes, he tended to bull ahead right ahead never deviating from the plan into a disaster. At Freddyburg, once the mud march set in, it meant he couldn't beat Lee to the fords. He should have occupied the high ground on his side of the river and let Lee come to him. At the Crater, he should have delayed a day, so Upton could train the new designated Euro-American troops in the storm tactics to be attempted.
QuoteWe apparently disagree that Sheridan was qualified to make the call. I see nothing in his Civil War performance to indicate a grand view of the strategic picture. His failure to appreciate the distance, terrain, supply difficulties, and the presence of large forts at strategic points ...in addition to the various armies..lead me to believe the statement was mere bluster, not a well considered rational and logical response.
I supplied several examples where Sheridan positioned himself or led from key points in a battle to make sure that his subordinates knew exactly what he wanted and intended. When they did as he told them or when he directly intervened, the results were victory-always. Not even the overrated Lee could claim that record.
I guess we do not agree about Sheridan. But I want you to know why I look at Sheridan's revisionist critics and dismiss them. Its easy for them to look at a map and numbers and criticize . Its not easy to look at the ground he had to fight, and know the raw material he had to use in men and horse, and not admire that little bastard's accomplishments against the likes of "the Virginia Cavaliers".
I mean he was able to whip them, even with fools like Custer and Gregg!
Damocles-
I am aware that much of the Union Army's effort was in capturing ports- especially the Mississippi river ports. I am well aware of 'the parrot shells a-sangin' though the air' in Vicksburg.
HOWEVER, this was NOT the 'primary method of blockade.' There was a real, working blockade on the high seas- one which was a primary source of the Confederacy's claims of de jure as well as de facto independence. Only a foreign belligerent can be blockaded; rebellious ports are 'closed.' The Union used the word 'blockade' not without a great deal of trepidation and with full awareness that they were proving that the South was no longer under their control... so it is NOT something that was 'secondary to the Army's operations' as you seem to insist. It was an expensive operation that literally DOUBLED the size of the Union navy and put virtually all of it to sea.
I am also damnably aware of the 'state of the art' in naval vessels... Dixie was the one building them (if only by contract in England).
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h48000/h48145.jpg
The North Carolina, for your perusal.
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h52000/h52526.jpg
And her sister, the Mississippi, in H.M.'s Royal Navy service as the Wyvern.
The ordering of these ships, the previously mentioned Stonewall and several others are clearly proof that the Confederacy was at least equally concerned about something on the high seas strangling the life out of them as they were about having their ports closed one by one.
Oh, did you ever think that maybe- just POSSIBLY, mind you- the reason the Union was able to 'close the ports with their armies' was the fact that the blockade meant that the Confederate armies were so poorly supplied that they could not hold their ground against Union assault? You are attempting to allow the cart to pull the horses, Damocles. Without the blockade, the Union would never have been able to close the ports... the Confederate forces would have been exporting enough cotton and importing enough material that your vaunted army actions against the ports would never have taken place.
Oh... that Frog broadside ship would have been the least of anyone's worries in 1872.
I'd be far more afraid of the Taureau should I be coming into close proximity to the French coast,
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 19, 2010, 07:39:30 AM
Damocles-
I am aware that much of the Union Army's effort was in capturing ports- especially the Mississippi river ports. I am well aware of 'the parrot shells a-sangin' though the air' in Vicksburg.
Good. See below for why that matters.
QuoteHOWEVER, this was NOT the 'primary method of blockade.' There was a real, working blockade on the high seas- one which was a primary source of the Confederacy's claims of de jure as well as de facto independence. Only a foreign belligerent can be blockaded; rebellious ports are 'closed.' The Union used the word 'blockade' not without a great deal of trepidation and with full awareness that they were proving that the South was no longer under their control... so it is NOT something that was 'secondary to the Army's operations' as you seem to insist. It was an expensive operation that literally DOUBLED the size of the Union navy and put virtually all of it to sea.
The USN in 1860 consisted of scarce 40 ocean going vessels. By 1864 that was a going concern with almost 300 ocean going vessels, almost 100 of them being various "sloops of war" and the rest, gunboats in one form or another. Counting the Eades fleets, there were scarce 30 ironclads in the USN at any one time during the US Civil War.
The Confederate coast had 8 major usable ports and 300 usable smuggling inlets, as well as the huge Mississippi Delta, Mobile Bay, the extensive island shield off North Carolina, Savannah, Charleston, and the Floridas. That is over 13,000 miles of CSA coastline plus French Mexico via Texas to "blockade". Interdict here is the correct term. Blockade was impossible-especially as there were a dozen or more US cruisers chasing Confederate raiders up and down the Atlantic, while British and French captains in fast steamers were routinely running the blockade out of the Bahamas and Jamaica.
QuoteI am also damnably aware of the 'state of the art' in naval vessels... Dixie was the one building them (if only by contract in England).
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h48000/h48145.jpg
The North Carolina, for your perusal.
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h52000/h52526.jpg
And her sister, the Mississippi, in H.M.'s Royal Navy service as the Wyvern.
The ordering of these ships, the previously mentioned Stonewall and several others are clearly proof that the Confederacy was at least equally concerned about something on the high seas strangling the life out of them as they were about having their ports closed one by one.
You are kidding right?
http://www.cityofart.net/bship/wivern.html
Those were Lairds RAMS, desiigned to destroy the New Ironsides and Monitor and ships like them, if those showed up to support and cover the armies that were knocking over places like Fort Fisher and closing down Confederate ports:
http://www.nchistoricsites.org/fisher/fisher.htm
How were they going to cross the Atlantic to take up their coastal defense roles without being ocean going at least once?
QuoteOh, did you ever think that maybe- just POSSIBLY, mind you- the reason the Union was able to 'close the ports with their armies' was the fact that the blockade meant that the Confederate armies were so poorly supplied that they could not hold their ground against Union assault? You are attempting to allow the cart to pull the horses, Damocles. Without the blockade, the Union would never have been able to close the ports... the Confederate forces would have been exporting enough cotton and importing enough material that your vaunted army actions against the ports would never have taken place.
http://www.nchistoricsites.org/fisher/blockade.htm
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_american_civil_war09_waratsea.html
QuoteIronically, the determined Confederate attempts to get Britain to declare against the blockade played a part in convincing her that the blockade was indeed effective. If it had been as leaky as the Confederates were claiming, then why make so much fuss? Great Britain was perfectly happy to declare the Union blockade legal – the inconvenience to British trade was more than balanced by the invaluable precedent thus created.
The blockade of 1861 was indeed very leaky. Estimates suggest that only one in ten ships attempting to trade with the South was captured in the first year of the war. However, as the war progressed and the Union navy increased in size, the blockade became increasingly effective. By 1864 one in three ships were being captured, although even that ratio still left a good chance of profit for the owner of a blockade runner.
Despite claims to the contrary then and since, the blockade was effective. The number of ships entering southern ports was reduced by two thirds. Many of those ships were custom built blockade runners, capable of carrying much smaller cargos that their pre-war equivalents, so the actual amount of cargo carried must have been even smaller. The outgoing figures for cotton exports support this idea. In the three years before the war, ten million bales of cotton were exported from the south. In the three wartime years after the South lifted its own cotton embargo only half a million bales got out. While some of this was probably due to the disruption of the South's poor transport network and the capture by the Union of ports such as New Orleans, it does demonstrate the effectiveness of the blockade.
Of course the best way to close a Southern port was to capture it. The United States Navy retained command of the seas around the Confederacy, despite repeated Confederate efforts to break that control (see below for the battle of the Ironclads). This meant that the Union could launch attacks on any Southern port that was not protected by a major Confederate army.
At the start of the war, the Confederate states contained eight major ports capable of conducting a significant amount of trade. On the east coast were Norfolk, Wilmington, Charleston and Savannah and on the Gulf coast Pensacola, Mobile, New Orleans and Galveston.
You see something else here, Carthaginian, the "blockade" was only as effective as the cash and carry trade allowed it to be.
http://www.jcs-group.com/military/war1861fringe/running.html
QuoteCargos on the inward trips were much more varied. The Confederate government desperately needed Europe's military equipment, lead for bullets and saltpeter for gunpowder, and engines, machinery and tools to strengthen munitions factories in the South.
Unfortunately for the Confederate military, blockade running firms quickly learned that bring ing in luxury goods was even more profitable. After all, one 2,500-pound cannon could be replaced with a lot of silk cloth, lace, perfumes, elegant furniture and French brandy, yielding the owners much higher returns than those earned by ferrying in munitions. Incoming merchandise was auctioned off at staggering prices. Between running in full of freight and getting out packed with cotton, one round trip could net a profit of more than $200,000.
As Alexander Stephens said of the Confederacy; "We cut our own throats on the altar of luxury."
QuoteOh... that French broadside ship would have been the least of anyone's worries in 1872.
I'd be far more afraid of the Taureau should I be coming into close proximity to the French coast,
I wouldn't. The Taureau carried two 240 mm fire ahead guns and was designed primarily to ram.
http://www.nytimes.com/1865/07/10/news/the-new-french-iron-clad.html
http://navalhistory.flixco.info/H/254210/8330/a0.htm
It was too slow tactically in a turn, its range too limited, and it could be easily dodged at gun range, as well as be pounded and sunk by the Armstrong or Dahlgren/Parrott guns using shot, then in service. Versus New Ironsides, she is dead meat. Its ships like the Almas and the Oceans that should scare Federal cruisers and ironclads spitless.
Ever hear of this?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/at-kuk-kriegsmarine-lissa.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lissa_%281866%29
Lissa: Tegethoff got to replay Trafalgar in metal.
If you'll read in your own quote:
QuoteDespite claims to the contrary then and since, the blockade was effective. The number of ships entering southern ports was reduced by two thirds. Many of those ships were custom built blockade runners, capable of carrying much smaller cargos that their pre-war equivalents, so the actual amount of cargo carried must have been even smaller. The outgoing figures for cotton exports support this idea. In the three years before the war, ten million bales of cotton were exported from the south. In the three wartime years after the South lifted its own cotton embargo only half a million bales got out. While some of this was probably due to the disruption of the South's poor transport network and the capture by the Union of ports such as New Orleans, it does demonstrate the effectiveness of the blockade.
The blockade ruined the South's economy... which was ONLY 'cash and carry'- they 'cashed' the cotton and 'carried' off the weapons.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 19, 2010, 09:27:33 AM
If you'll read in your own quote:
QuoteDespite claims to the contrary then and since, the blockade was effective. The number of ships entering southern ports was reduced by two thirds. Many of those ships were custom built blockade runners, capable of carrying much smaller cargos that their pre-war equivalents, so the actual amount of cargo carried must have been even smaller. The outgoing figures for cotton exports support this idea. In the three years before the war, ten million bales of cotton were exported from the south. In the three wartime years after the South lifted its own cotton embargo only half a million bales got out. While some of this was probably due to the disruption of the South's poor transport network and the capture by the Union of ports such as New Orleans, it does demonstrate the effectiveness of the blockade.
The blockade ruined the South's economy... which was ONLY 'cash and carry'- they 'cashed' the cotton and 'carried' off the weapons.
500,000 tons of Cotton at 24 pence a pound? Buys a LOT of ammunition and ordnance.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/kingcotton.htm
They cut their own collective economic throats, but then that arrogant ruling class always did, didn't those slave-owners?
Quote from: damocles on September 19, 2010, 09:49:44 AM
They cut their own collective economic throats, but then that arrogant ruling class always did, didn't those slave-owners?
LOL... so, it all comes out in the wash. ::)
You really just want to bash the South because of a social institution which existed in the North for longer than it did in the South... if you notice, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the 'States in rebellion' but did nothing to ease the plight of those in the slave states in Northern possession- OR, indeed, in New Orleans, which was under Union occupation by that time. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emancipation_Proclamation.PNG
Blue areas allowed slavery by Lincoln's political maneuvering; the separate nation in red was 'denied' that right.
So, what we REALLY see in the 'Civil War' (the name itself is a nice propaganda piece, it was never a 'civil war' at all) is the difference between people who are not exactly pillars of morality and those who are deliberate hypocrites.
No further discussion forthcoming.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 19, 2010, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: damocles on September 19, 2010, 09:49:44 AM
They cut their own collective economic throats, but then that arrogant ruling class always did, didn't those slave-owners?
LOL... so, it all comes out in the wash. ::)
You really just want to bash the South because of a social institution which existed in the North for longer than it did in the South... if you notice, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the 'States in rebellion' but did nothing to ease the plight of those in the slave states in Northern possession- OR, indeed, in New Orleans, which was under Union occupation by that time. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emancipation_Proclamation.PNG
Blue areas allowed slavery by Lincoln's political maneuvering; the separate nation in red was 'denied' that right.
So, what we REALLY see in the 'Civil War' (the name itself is a nice propaganda piece, it was never a 'civil war' at all) is the difference between people who are not exactly pillars of morality and those who are deliberate hypocrites.
No further discussion forthcoming.
Note the comment here, and agree to disagree, the Confederacy by all rights should have won. The stupidity and arrogance of their ruling class, that made it impossible for them to organize a rational national defense was what beat them.
That is the Confederate Lesson. Let your enemy beat himself. All you have to do is outlast him.
And sorry if you think my disgust with the Confederacy and the treason of the slave-owning class offends me seems to indicate a bias. It does, but not the one you think. The Southern "aristocracy" were composed of idiots and mental midgets.
QuoteI make up my opinions from facts and reasoning, and not to suit any body but myself. If people don't like my opinions, it makes little difference as I don't solicit their opinions or votes.
see also:
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/sherman/sherman-to-burn-atlanta.html
William Tecumseh Sherman
QuoteQuoteAnd sorry if you think my disgust with the Confederacy and the treason of the slave-owning class offends me seems to indicate a bias. It does, but not the one you think. The Southern "aristocracy" were composed of idiots and mental midgets.
Really?!?!?...you know, there could, just maybe possibly, be people desended from what you call the "South aristocracy" on this site.
Hmmmm.... Southern Aristocracy... Jefferson, Washington.... and dozens of others. The Problem of Slavery was a hard economic problem to solve because by the time of the American Revolution most Southern Gentelmen were born into Genteel Poverty and died in Genteel Poverty still owing more then they started with.
And then the Cotton Gin was invented and Rich Land could make you rich overnight in they year to 3 before you exhausted the land.
The Belief that the South Should have won the war is a very wierd belief, without the productive means to build their own Railways, Cannon, muskets, powder, or Ships and with less then half the population even less if you only count "White Population" for use in the Armed Forces then can someone tell me why the South should have won this war.... I think we should probably move this discussion out of The New Government in Holland section if we want to continue it.... ;D
People, could we do the Civil war in the meeting room?
I suggest we split off the "historical pages" to a new meeting room topic.
Quote from: maddox on September 19, 2010, 04:10:05 PM
People, could we do the Civil war in the meeting room?
I suggest we split off the "historical pages" to a new meeting room topic.
Agree
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 19, 2010, 02:06:52 PM
QuoteQuoteAnd sorry if you think my disgust with the Confederacy and the treason of the slave-owning class offends me seems to indicate a bias. It does, but not the one you think. The Southern "aristocracy" were composed of idiots and mental midgets.
Really?!?!?...you know, there could, just maybe possibly, be people desended from what you call the "South aristocracy" on this site.
We evolve culturally, TC. We improve. We put that nasty business behind us and improve our cultures, intellectual capacity, and morals. No slavery, no bigotry, no racism, no secession, no social Darwinism tolerated. Call it progress. Anyway, this is the KoN news thread. I still scratch my head over how we got from the upcoming PW Mark III to Phil Sheridan and the Union blockade. I'm suggesting that the US Civil War be split off and moved to the meeting room. This is the last time here, unless the KoN invents a time machine and we start a time war.
D.
Restricted knowledge to the Dutch (for the moment)
DFKN amt Rotterdam:
Nuygen van Sok: "Is something like that even possible?
Shrugging, Moliytor Kerssler: "I don't know. Its too early in in the Crapfest program to tell, if even the vague rumors we hear about the French hybrid are true or possible. We certainly have nothing but some of our own architects "rough sketch drawings" of such a concept."
Nuygen van Sok: "I bet this isn't what they intend. I bet they use an offset deck or an angled deck..."
Moliytor Kerssler: "Well we sure can't test it. We don't have the catapults or the trapping gear to make it work, or even validate at our land mock-up to see if its possible. The runway lengths suggested here are too short for anything else but mechanical assist. The French must have solved those problems if this is their plan."
"Steal the tech?" asks van Sok.
"What else?" Kerssler.
Both: "Mwahahahahahahahah!"
(http://home.comcast.net/~navalism_blooded/Navalism/Armor/reno_russky_2.PNG)
Clankety clankety at Namur. Its Russian and being tested against this:
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9651/mktank.jpg)
Somewhere in an office somewhere outside the Toulon naval base*:
"OW! !@#$$^&*()!" Avvotus Costello rubs his scalp as Jerri Louis hits him over the head with the gas lamp.
"Use it only when you need to see, Avvot!" Jerri whispers. "We have only ten minutes gas left in the torch."
"Are you sure the janitor said the plans are in this cabinet?" Costello asks.
Louis searches the cabinet making a lot of inadvertent noise, "Found them I think!" Jerri whispers.
Louis takes the gas powered flashlight and reads quickly. "It sure looks like the battleship blueprints with a landing platform for aircraft off the aft end. Even has engineering drawings for what look like catapult launchers in the sheaf here. The only problem is that its all text labeled in ten point romani!"
"So what? That helps." Costello.
"So I read French, Dutch, and German. This is all in Italian, you simpleton!" says Louis.
Costello reads it. "Well don't look at me to solve this, I wasn't the one who dropped the camera in the sewer." He glares at her.
"Terrific. No camera and my photo memory is no good for something this complex.' Louis muses. "Okay, we steal the plans outright and make it look like thieves rob the place looking for cash."
"Don't you think the French will still know that someone stole the plans to their aircraft carrier?" This from the sarcastic Costello
Click!
"Hands up! Who are you, and what are you doing in Monsieur Duquense's office in the middle of the night?"
The policeman has Avvo and Jerri covered with a pistol. What will our intrepid Dutch spy-hero couple do NOW?
* I blame Ctwaterman for this. He gave me the idea!
Stay tuned...
Avvotus looks for a way out of this mess. He says to Jerri in German, "Flirt!"
Jerri in surprise (and in German) says, "What?"
"Show some cleavage! He's French. He'll either be interested or embarrassed...then I'll jump him."
Jerri, shakes her head, "No! I'm not that kind of a spy! Besides, he's got a gun, stupid."
The guard interrupts the two (in broken German); "Oh, a couple of Bavarians, eh? Long way from home aren't you? You think you can waltz in here and steal whatever you want?"
Avvot: "We're Austrians. And we swam. You have very clean sewers, my friend."
The guard: "Give me those papers."
Avvot hands over the papers, clumsily drops them, stoops over to pick them up and bowls over the guard in a rugby tackle. Jerri is on the guard like a spider in less than a second, all arms and legs flaying; and there is a struggle for the pistol.
Clish!, the pistol hammer falls on Jerri's thumb as she wrestles for the gun.
"OW, OW, OW! Let me go, you witch!" the guard howls as Jerri bites his hand in retaliation.
Clunk!
"!@#$%^&*()! Took you long enough, Avvot." Jerri snarls. "You broke the !@#$%^&*()~ torch!"
"He's probably from Bordeaux. Hard head. And does every other word out of you have to be !@#$%^&*()?"
"I never used such words before I met you, you !@#$%^&*()." Jerri hurriedly gathers the papers together and plans..."Take my belt and yours and tie up the guard. We will take him with us. You get to carry him, Avvot."
"What?"
"Think!" Louis snarls: "The guard disappears, we were never here, what will the French think?"
"What about the plans?" Costello asks, "and the blood?" He continues, "and the broken pieces of torch, and..."
"Oh shut up. I don't see you trying! Just tie him up, and I'll take care of the rest."
Jerri turns off the light, goes out into the hallway, starts going into various offices and closets and finds quickly what she seeks.
Muttering to herself, she says: "I told van Sok I should have done this alone." She gathers a bucket, mop, a trash pouch, and then heads back.
Squeak, squeak, squeak, the bucket's wheels need grease. Jerri Louis stops. She smiles. "Photography." she reads on the door tabard in the moonlit window lighted hallway office door. She enters and finds scattered in a messy way, the things she needs.
"A camera, film, and the bags to carry same. Sorry whoever you are, but you should really put your stuff away when I'm around." Jerri even steals the battery operated lamp she sees. "Advanced French tech. BRNO will LOVE this gear!"
She returns to the plans office.
The tied up gagged guard's eyes pop: "Mmmpghf!"
Avvot comments: "I see you went shopping."
"Shut up!" She shoves the bucket at Avvot and throws the trash pouch at him. "Mop and clean. I'll need a few minutes to photo all of this. Don't miss anything." As Costello cleans up, she takes pictures of the Italian plans for the French aircraft carrier. Then she refiles the plans as best as she remembers they were filed.
"!@#$%^&*() gloves."
Avvot reples: "The French invented fingerprinting. They aren't stupid." He wipes up the last trace of debris, and looks around at an office cleaner than when they first burgled. "Now what?"
Jerri loads up everything she has into the carry bags she stole, and says, "We go. Take the guard and trash with you, I'll put back the mop and bucket, and meet you outside."
And so it happens.
The burglary was discovered...in the photo lab. The missing guard was noticed. The investigation turned up lost lighting gear, camera equipment, and some unprocessed film of secret French torpedo boat trials gone. The photographer was immediately arrested and after questions, he revealed that he sold the film to "an unnamed foreign power.", but denied that he had anything to do with the guard, the camera and other equipment that is lost.
===========================================
Nguyen van Sok: "You idiots! That agent was one of our best sources in Toulon, and you burned him for this GARBAGE!"
Costello and Louis look at each other and brace themselves for the works.
Moliytor Kerssler: "Its not a total loss. Our engineers can use the catapult drawings to improve our own design, and we did get a nifty camera... Besides, Monsieur Bilamette sold the same film to..."
"I know." van Sok says. "Its only that fact, that prevents these two from their earned free trip to the MK Eastern Front as "volunteers"." He rounds on the two again, "What do you want me to do with the policeman, you kidnapped? I can't kill him. That's illegal."
Avvot pipes up: "Send him to the NUS and have him enjoy that idiot ambassador's brothel?"
Jerri Louis facepalms: "Not helping us here, Avvot."
Quote from: damocles on September 25, 2010, 05:35:38 AM
Jerri Louis facepalms: "Not helping us here, Avvot."
:)
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on September 25, 2010, 10:59:42 AM
Quote from: damocles on September 25, 2010, 05:35:38 AM
Jerri Louis facepalms: "Not helping us here, Avvot."
:)
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Jerri Louis.
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Avvotus Costello
Yeah, Austrians. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Do we really need an appearance of Secret Agent Jack Bauer to set these two right?
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 25, 2010, 12:40:32 PM
Do we really need an appearance of Secret Agent Jack Bauer to set these two right?
I think that the question, here, is why would secret agent Jack Bauer even bother with them?
Quote from: damocles on September 26, 2010, 04:14:12 AM
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 25, 2010, 12:40:32 PM
Do we really need an appearance of Secret Agent Jack Bauer to set these two right?
I think that the question, here, is why would secret agent Jack Bauer even bother with them?
Cause, obviously, this will link to the Russian mafia, which will link to biological weapons, which will link to a global multi-pronged multi-plotted assault on Romania...ah, I love 24...:)
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 26, 2010, 02:45:11 PM
Quote from: damocles on September 26, 2010, 04:14:12 AM
Quote from: TexanCowboy on September 25, 2010, 12:40:32 PM
Do we really need an appearance of Secret Agent Jack Bauer to set these two right?
I think that the question, here, is why would secret agent Jack Bauer even bother with them?
Cause, obviously, this will link to the Russian mafia, which will link to biological weapons, which will link to a global multi-pronged multi-plotted assault on Romania...ah, I love 24...:)
Doesn't EVERYTHING on 24 relate to the Russian Mafia or CBRN weapons of somekind?
The Dutch freighter ,N-6 loaded with 1000, tonnes of pergassium permanganate and loaded with NOI medical supplies reaches its rendezvous destination.
The captain opens his sealed orders:
Quote
Contact Italaian patrol Zeppelins by blinker off Southern Rift at point ZULU, Proceed to Blantrye ISO [Italian South Africa] under their escorts, and contact port authority. Permission, granted, will then be allowed to proceed directly to Kigali In the Gulf of Tangayika and unload supplies for railroad trip to civilian port on Lake Victoria and boat ride directly to Ashrod infection outbreak.
Deploy medical unit there and assist Green Cross with cholera and typhus outbreaks. Maintain presence 90 days or until the Italian Sanitation Commission no longer requires assistance.
The captain grunts and calls the Landmacht Medical Korp majoor to his cabin.
==============================================================
Captain Luntz: "Read this."
Major Achmed reads the orders and shrugs. "That explains the potassium permanganate. We use it as a cheap disinfectant. But the sanitation commission doesn't need a Landmacht field hospital."
Luntz: "Yet you are supposed to go to Ashdod, and set up a field hospital. Good will gesture for the Italians and the NZers?
Achmed: "I suppose."
==============================================================
Quotehttp://www.metrowaterfilter.com/documents/MSDS_Cairox_Potassium_Permanganate.pdf
==============================================================
Anders Welsen leaves the Russian embassy to the Hague and walks across one of the many foot bridges that currently cross Embassy Row. An aid rushes up to him and hands him a note. Welsen reads it and shouts "YES!"
==============================================================
From the NRDN from the Amsterdam transmitter in CODE:
Quote
____ __ ___ ___ _________
BOOM!
Hmmm... "Achmed" and "BOOM!"...
*Silence*..... I kill you all....
Quote from: ctwaterman on September 27, 2010, 07:57:57 AM
*Silence*..... I kill you all....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB0JdVzMTIY&feature=fvw
Doh.
D'oh indeed! ;D
Anders Welsen rings for an aide. The aide rushes into the office expectant.
Welsen: "What the !@@# are the Iberians up to?"
Aide: "What do you mean, Minister?"
Welsen: "I'm not sure. Get a hold of van Sok and see if he can shake something loose. I just got a sudden knife between the shoulder blades feeling, and I'm worried."
Aide: "I'll get van Sok."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Nugyen van Sok reads the message flimsy, burns it, and says into the air: "What drug is our Foreign Minister high on this time?" He shakes his head. "We have ZERO intelligence on Iberian intentions and zero reason to investigate them. I don't see why we should stir up that hornet's nest."
Quote???
??????????????????????; 1. ???? 2. ?????????????? 3. ???DKB?????????? it'??????Deutsche?????????????????; s?????????????????????????????????????? ???????1920 1?1??Deutsche Handelsmarine (??????)????????????????????????? ?????????????????MK?????????????????????????????????????? ??MK??????????????????????????????????? ???????????2?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????Hermann???Lindenhoff Reichskanzler??????
Nicholas van Rijn reads this decoded and he roars to his secretary; "Get me van Sok and that no good son of a-"
Secretary: "You want Anders Welsen? He's waiting to see you, too, sir."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Outside Beijing in a bombproof.
van Seik: "Get them to change their minds. Tell them Holland does not object if they want to negotiate this. We can't afford a diplomatic debacle at this stage."
Hertzog: "I can try, but this isn't our country. I can't dictate to the Emperor."
van Seik: "Well contact the 'others' directly! See if they'll talk to us and if we can work it out. Also send it on to the Hague. Maybe they can think of something."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Welsen mops his foreshead. That was some meeting last night! Nuygen van Sok paces back and forth smoking like a locomotive getting ashes on Welsen's Ottoman rug.
"I made some inquiries." van Sok says quietly.
"You are dropping cigarette ash on my rug" says Welsen.
"Are you insane? NvR practically told us he was going to have us both executed if we didn't do something about this." van Sok says with menace.
"What did you find out?" Welsen.
"They did send a note and it was a warning." van Sok. "They are NOI happy." He continues, "van Seik wants accommodation, but it has to be negotiated somehow. Maybe through Ireland? I don't know how that works. They don't like us at all."
"The Iberians?" Welsen.
"Not the Iberians! Will you quit with the Iberians! This is SERIOUS!" says van Sok.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was the Hoen government mess all over again. NvR looks at the businessman and says: "Are you sure?"
Fessler (in Spanish) : "es I am sure. The consulate has talked to the Irish about your actions in Ireland. They think you are up to your old tricks as when Siam was on the table. They have much anger with you."
"But we have done NOTHING in Ireland! We even protected their shipping lanes in the Rift War with our peace patrols!"
Fessler (in Spanish): "Masirah."
NvR. "Merde. That would set them off. It doesn't involve them, but I see it now. Thank you my friend."
Fessler (in Spanish): "War is bad for business. See that you fix this, van Rijn, or friends we no longer are!"
With a stiff bow, Fessler leaves NvR's office.
The two NRDN agents look at each other and Nugyen van Sok.
"You are sure you want us to pose as a French married couple?" she asks. "I am Korean!"
"And I am a Russian!" says he.
"Don't help!" she says as she looks at him and rolls her eyes.
Nugyen van Sok glares, "Its obvious why the MVB sent you two to me. Look. All you have to do is get on a stupid boat, take the stupid holiday trip to Ireland, take one of their stupid bicycle tours that honeymoon couples usually take from Belfast to Dublin, go to one of those stupid poetry houses in Dublin, where they will have some drunk read some James Joyce at you, and pass these instructions to our Dublin agent who will meet you there."
"Should we take pictures of their torpedo boats and airplanes while we 'honeymoon' along the back country? I mean with the trip's costs, and all we are are postal clerks?"
"No PICTURES!" van Sok and she said together. "Just give our Dublin agent the instructions as I told you." van Sok finishes through gritted teeth.
"Why don't you send someone else, if you have no faith in us?" asks he sarcastically.
"Because all of my good agents are involved right now, and this assignment is so simple that even you, two, can't screw it up!" says van Sok, again through clenched teeth. "Here are your instructions." He hands the woman the two envelopes. One contains the mission plan, the other (in code) contains the Irish agent's instructions. She tears open the larger envelope, removes the ship tickets, a sheaf of Francs, and a single typewritten sheet of flash paper that she reads quickly, before she burns it. She can do this because of her photographic memory. She puts the small message envelope where a body pat search will not find it.
"We are supposed to be called the Leurres?" asks she. "You are kidding, right?"
"What's wrong with Leurres? Its a beautiful cover name," the man says.
"Shoot me now." she says and pulls out a whiskey flask from under her skirt and takes a LOOONNNNNG pull of saki from it.
Nuygen van Sok waves with his hand, and he takes the flask from her. He drains it dry.
"Hey! If we are toasting the mission, don't I get some?" asks the man.
Nuygen van Sok and she both groan.
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Jerri Louis.
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Avvotus Costello
Yeah, French married couple. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cleaned out the OOC comments , thanks for the PM's guys. ;)
Thank you.
Dutch restricted information.
Nuygen van Sok threw the sheaf of papers across the room. He roared at his secretary, "Get hold of that idiot, Welsen!"
================================================================
Meanwhile at a large water tank outside Rotterdam.
KCHUNK, KCHUNK, KCHUNK, KCHUNK, KCHUNK, KCHUNK, WHEEZEEEE.
One BRNO engineer looked to the other one.
"It works, in theory. It leaks like hell, but it works." He said.
"Yeah, but can we sell it to Admiral Schoepen?" the other asked.