What are the minimum specs to have a Ship that can be called a BB?
I found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_battleship_Espa%C3%B1a_(1912)).
IDK if they would be useable BBs even anymore. I know they were the smallest Dreads ever though, with alot of asociated issues. Here however is what you get if you sim her exactly with the Dimensions in the Wikipedia listing.
Ultra Light, Experimental Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
12,600 t light; 13,334 t standard; 14,238 t normal; 14,961 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
434.70 ft / 434.70 ft x 79.00 ft x 25.50 ft (normal load)
132.50 m / 132.50 m x 24.08 m x 7.77 m
Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
Weight of broadside 7,641 lbs / 3,466 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 282.56 ft / 86.12 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 152.13 ft / 46.37 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 282.56 ft / 86.12 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 282.56 ft / 86.12 m 23.41 ft / 7.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 10.0" / 254 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,133 shp / 15,019 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,627 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
651 - 847
Cost:
£2.949 million / $11.797 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 955 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 5,550 tons, 39.0 %
- Belts: 2,497 tons, 17.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 367 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 1,657 tons, 11.6 %
- Armour Deck: 903 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 127 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 774 tons, 5.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,321 tons, 37.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,638 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,844 lbs / 8,548 Kg = 21.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.31
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.569
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 16.60 ft / 5.06 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.1 %
Waterplane Area: 24,399 Square feet or 2,267 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 754 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.21
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Actually your main belt is too tall compared to historical. Espana had only a ridiculously short 2 meter tall main belt.
I can see some use for ships such as these, but for most minor powers such as OTL Spain, I suspect that big armored cruisers would have more overall utility. Spain certainly seemed to get a lot more use out of Canarias.
Tan: She's also to light (15,700t normal) and the engines are to new (1909 laid down vs your 1920 sim) and she had 101.6 (~102)/4" secondaries not 4.5" with 20 total not 16, and there were some 47mm(3 pounder) guns and light (7.7mm probably) mgs. Main battery shell weight was 850lbs not 864lbs, secondarys were 31lbs. I think you got pretty close, and I had a nice one until my computer just shut itself off for no reason.
Quote from: Guinness on March 20, 2010, 02:42:30 PM
Actually your main belt is too tall compared to historical. Espana had only a ridiculously short 2 meter tall main belt.
Actualy Guinness, most ships of the era we are in had stupid short belts (or atleast thats how we see them) Hood had a 9' main belt which while short wasnt alot shorter than the 12' belts on the german ships.
as to changes from OTL, I took a few liberties with some issues I felt it had (and the engine was intentional since Mario was considering building somthing like her)
Glorious France isn't into BC's. But to do some of the things, I see need for cheapers vessel than the Montmedies or the Occitanies.
I could do a repeat of the Bretagnes, but with 25Kton, they are a tad bigger than what I want to spend on another 6 ship class.
Ideal I would end up with something only 70m long, so that lilliputter can use the support bases. But such a vessel can be at best a monitor. Not what I need.
That is why I asked, what is the smallest ship possible and still calling it a BB without
;D ;D ;D ;D
?
Coastal Battleships could be smaller ships armed with Battleship guns and designed to fight other capital ships (rather than a monitor of the time period which is designed to bombard land targets from areas battleships can't enter). This could get you a pre-dreadnought sized vessel or something along the lines of a heavier built Pocket Battleship (heavier armor, slower speed, and maybe heavier guns). The Germans classified theirs as Armored Cruisers when they built them around 1930, and properly were more like Armored Cruisers than Battleships due to the cruiser type armor and relative size...only the 11" guns put them into Battleship territory.
12-15 Ton then.
Main guns as big as possible, or sleightly smaller to have more of'm?
Secundaries, good enough to take care, just enough to have them or non, depending on escorts.
Speed? Good enough to follow the heavies of the French fleet, or even slower?
You might be able to get something on around 6,000 tons if you don't care about speed. Though a 14 knot battleship with four 12" guns and 9" of belt and 2" of deck armor might not be France's cup of tea or glass of wine.
Getting an idea
Simming it out now.
QuoteMinimax, French CCBB laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
10.000 t light; 10.822 t standard; 11.542 t normal; 12.118 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393,70 ft / 390,42 ft x 49,21 ft (Bulges 72,18 ft) x 21,33 ft (normal load)
120,00 m / 119,00 m x 15,00 m (Bulges 22,00 m) x 6,50 m
Armament:
6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
6 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 8.763 lbs / 3.975 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10,0" / 254 mm 242,06 ft / 73,78 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 95% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 12,0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19.340 shp / 14.428 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 3.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.296 tons
Complement:
556 - 723
Cost:
£2,978 million / $11,911 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 963 tons, 8,3%
Armour: 3.583 tons, 31,0%
- Belts: 1.152 tons, 10,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 1.487 tons, 12,9%
- Armour Deck: 834 tons, 7,2%
- Conning Tower: 110 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 721 tons, 6,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.433 tons, 38,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.542 tons, 13,4%
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10.681 lbs / 4.845 Kg = 8,9 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,05
Metacentric height 1,9 ft / 0,6 m
Roll period: 22,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,97
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,672
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,76 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Forecastle (23%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (40%): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m (13,12 ft / 4,00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79,1%
Waterplane Area: 15.020 Square feet or 1.395 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 796 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,92
- Longitudinal: 2,22
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
250 ton FC
25 ton ERADe
25 ton crew comfort
The hull form's basically a cheat to avoid deck armor. The overall beam might not be adequate for the turret diameter, let alone the waterline beam.
In theory the barbettes could be part of the hull itself, diminishing any torpedo resilience to nothing.
But, can we call Minimax a BB, albeit a flawed one?
Sure, we can call it a battleship.
If you have an ignorant enough media, you could call any armed ship a battleship...
What can't Minimax do, what Valeur (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1545.msg15790#msg15790) can?
Quote from: maddox on March 21, 2010, 08:29:41 AM
What can't Minimax do, what Valeur (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1545.msg15790#msg15790) can?
Being already paid for.
and that's about it.
Oooo, France Pocket Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
15.500 t light; 16.421 t standard; 18.964 t normal; 20.999 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 68,90 ft (Bulges 78,74 ft) x 24,61 ft (normal load)
170,00 m / 169,00 m x 21,00 m (Bulges 24,00 m) x 7,50 m
Armament:
6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (3x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9.507 lbs / 4.312 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 304,95 ft / 92,95 m 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 85% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 12,0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
4th: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 6,00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26.792 shp / 19.987 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.578 tons
Complement:
807 - 1.050
Cost:
£3,692 million / $14,766 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.047 tons, 5,5%
Armour: 6.235 tons, 32,9%
- Belts: 2.906 tons, 15,3%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 1.660 tons, 8,8%
- Armour Deck: 1.577 tons, 8,3%
- Conning Tower: 92 tons, 0,5%
Machinery: 998 tons, 5,3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.869 tons, 36,2%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.464 tons, 18,3%
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,8%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28.877 lbs / 13.098 Kg = 24,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 3,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
Metacentric height 3,6 ft / 1,1 m
Roll period: 17,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,88
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,43
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0,618
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,04 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (22%): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Mid (50%): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Quarterdeck (23%): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m (18,04 ft / 5,50 m before break)
- Stern: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 16,30 ft / 4,97 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121,0%
Waterplane Area: 28.408 Square feet or 2.639 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 159 lbs/sq ft or 777 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,42
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
350 tons Misc. Weight
250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe
25 tons Long Range Marconi
25 tons Crew Comfort
25 tons Flag Facilities
This one is correct Mario.
Nearly an half BB Richmond Treaty.
I have similar designs in reserve.
Jef
Quote from: Jefgte on March 24, 2010, 03:04:26 AM
This one is correct Mario.
Nearly an half BB Richmond Treaty.
I have similar designs in reserve.
Jef
Thanks for the confidence.
I see a role for a dozen of these ships.
Station keeping
Port defence
Convoying
Fleshing out Main fleets/screen duty.
Assisting coastal bombardments.
To be honnest. She started as one of Tanthalas's designs, and I mixed in a load of Valeur.
By giving up the heavy secundaries and placing a twin 140mm over each main gun turret, as well 2 pairs superfiring on the beam next to the forward superstructure/funnel/bridge/Conning tower the secundary broadside is the equal to an Occitanie, 10 on each beam...
The 6 340mm (capable of delivering heavy SAP, HE , Green and Tiamat shells) make this ship a rather hard hitter for her size.
Armor, angled 12" Heroult face hardened plate (KCI) gives her protection the equal of the old 14" Heroult plates. And those are accepted for way bigger Battleships.
Quote...I see a role for a dozen of these ships.
Station keeping
Port defence
Convoying
Fleshing out Main fleets/screen duty.
Assisting coastal bombardments.
...
& work in the Battleline with 35000t BB too.
They could be useful to have numerical superiority or tactical utility (Jap ACs at Tsushima).
Jef ;)
Quote from: maddoxFleshing out Main fleets/screen duty.
Quote from: Jefgt& work in the Battleline with 35000t BB too.
Imagine the 2 Occitanies and 3 of those small ones. That's a 5 BB group. The opponent will have to make decisions. Shoot the little ones, and recieve heavy presents from het big ones, or shoot the big ones, and have the little ones step on the toes.
A 2nd Line BB that can really step up to the mark - Tough Little Bu**ers
Trying to go for near perfection - and thinking being slow they will be vulnerable to torpedoing from light forces (despite the very handy14 x 5.5s) - just wondering if there is scope to further toughen them:
- bit addn'l splinter prot'n for Mags?
- any way to sim increased sub-compartmentation?
- increase Stability bit further - more like German WW1 HSF standards?
I think it's a good + versatile design prob. worth investing a bit more - and assuming this needn't bump up costs too much
I'm thinking Wolverine - no one messes with 'em ;D
Quote from: maddox on March 24, 2010, 12:22:06 AM
and that's about it.
IOW, now it is not money well spent. 21kts will become 19kts in half a year, meaning a torpedo magnet. Furthermore, the 3m freeboard aft will make the ships usable only in light seas, all the aft would be awash and mounts there unusable if there's any wind.
Combined with tumblehome hull, the ship hardly has any buoyancy reserve - it would be unstable at less than 20* roll angle, then turn over. And that's without any underwater damage. Even nonpenetrating belt hits will cause flooding.
So P3D, what is your real answer to "what is a small BB"?
Quote from: P3D on March 24, 2010, 10:40:29 AM
21kts will become 19kts in half a year,
...um, what?
I'm thinking a combination of barnicle/algae buildup plus the usual wear-and-tear on the engines, meaning speeds obtained at launching can't be maintained for very long...
Quote from: maddox on March 24, 2010, 12:40:22 PM
So P3D, what is your real answer to "what is a small BB"?
My "small" (or rather, economy) BB is 27000t with 8x16" - i.e. what is being built by Orange.
About what France should build:
Occitanie has 22kts speed - if you want to use a tactically homogeneous battleline they need 22kts speed. Otherwise the extra 1kts on the Occitanie is wasted. I you want to economize further, 20kts is better option with similar speed older BBs around.
Range is too high, 7000@14 should be adequate (would also reduce belt).
Protection:
Increase belt from 12", perhaps reducing depth from 18'. The 3" deck is OK, it needs increase only with hindsight. I think the lack of TDS is false economy, a 200kg torpedo warhead will breach at least one transverse bulkhead, and most probably damage/flood something vital like machinery or magazine.
The main problem is the too low freeboard aft. I'd call 13-14' the minimum for a (not coastal) BB.
Firepower: you need more than two guns able to fire either forward or aft to increase tactical flexibility. The main armament should depend on the opponents it is designed against. Old BBs - 8-9x340, new ones - 2T3x380. Or just a revised Bretagne, 2 of them is more powerful than 3 of these pocket BBs.
Like this,
Bon Marché, laid down 1916
Displacement:
23,486 t light; 24,931 t standard; 26,758 t normal; 28,220 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.00 ft / 555.00 ft x 94.00 ft x 28.50 ft (normal load)
169.16 m / 169.16 m x 28.65 m x 8.69 m
Armament:
9 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
12 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 16,186 lbs / 7,342 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 353.00 ft / 107.59 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 202.00 ft / 61.57 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 353.00 ft / 107.59 m 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
No drive to shaft, 4 shafts, 40,391 shp / 30,131 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,289 tons
Complement:
1,045 - 1,359
Cost:
£4.471 million / $17.883 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,023 tons, 7.6 %
Armour: 8,716 tons, 32.6 %
- Belts: 2,810 tons, 10.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 758 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 2,701 tons, 10.1 %
- Armour Deck: 2,177 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 270 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,505 tons, 5.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,917 tons, 40.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,272 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,061 lbs / 14,996 Kg = 19.6 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.630
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (22 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (40 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 19.18 ft / 5.84 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136.9 %
Waterplane Area: 39,231 Square feet or 3,645 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 993 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.76
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Not bad, P3D... 'cept she's not going anywhere without any drive system. ;)
A solid little BB that can do fleet ops.
A tad heavier, but better armed.
QuoteCognac, French Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
25.000 t light; 26.774 t standard; 29.336 t normal; 31.385 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
626,64 ft / 623,36 ft x 88,58 ft (Bulges 104,99 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
191,00 m / 190,00 m x 27,00 m (Bulges 32,00 m) x 8,00 m
Armament:
9 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17.576 lbs / 7.972 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 380,25 ft / 115,90 m 14,50 ft / 4,42 m
Ends: 2,00" / 51 mm 243,09 ft / 74,09 m 11,29 ft / 3,44 m
Main Belt covers 94% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2,00" / 51 mm 380,25 ft / 115,90 m 24,73 ft / 7,54 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 13,0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
4th: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 41.258 shp / 30.779 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 6.800nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.611 tons
Complement:
1.120 - 1.457
Cost:
£6,610 million / $26,439 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.031 tons, 6,9%
Armour: 9.000 tons, 30,7%
- Belts: 3.349 tons, 11,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 696 tons, 2,4%
- Armament: 2.452 tons, 8,4%
- Armour Deck: 2.237 tons, 7,6%
- Conning Tower: 266 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 1.537 tons, 5,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.031 tons, 41,0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.336 tons, 14,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,4%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35.889 lbs / 16.279 Kg = 21,4 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 6,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
Metacentric height 5,1 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 19,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,598
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Mid (50%): 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Quarterdeck (19%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 17,57 ft / 5,36 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115,8%
Waterplane Area: 40.301 Square feet or 3.744 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1.019 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,27
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 Ton FC
25 Ton Long Range Marconi
25 Ton ERADe
50 ton Crew Comfort
50 ton not assigned.
Nah, I just could not find waterjet propulsion. Which, surprisingly, was tried in the 1870s and found inefficient.
IIRC there was a site... somewhere... where I read that a few nations (French, Germans and British I believe) had been working on it in the 19th century without much success. I believe it mentioned that the Brits had a coast guard vessel with that propulsion but I could be wrong about that.
Unfortunately I have no idea where that site is or if it still exists. :(
Another attempt. With thanks to Carthaginian.
QuoteRepulse mini, French Light Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
18.000 t light; 19.234 t standard; 21.098 t normal; 22.589 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 78,74 ft (Bulges 91,86 ft) x 24,28 ft (normal load)
170,00 m / 169,00 m x 24,00 m (Bulges 28,00 m) x 7,40 m
Armament:
6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9.504 lbs / 4.311 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 338,22 ft / 103,09 m 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 94% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1,50" / 38 mm 338,22 ft / 103,09 m 25,00 ft / 7,62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 13,0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
4th: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 34.706 shp / 25.891 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.355 tons
Complement:
874 - 1.137
Cost:
£3,688 million / $14,752 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.047 tons, 5,0%
Armour: 7.632 tons, 36,2%
- Belts: 3.473 tons, 16,5%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 469 tons, 2,2%
- Armament: 1.708 tons, 8,1%
- Armour Deck: 1.767 tons, 8,4%
- Conning Tower: 214 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 1.293 tons, 6,1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.679 tons, 36,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.098 tons, 14,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,7%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30.450 lbs / 13.812 Kg = 25,4 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 6,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
Metacentric height 4,3 ft / 1,3 m
Roll period: 18,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,597
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,04 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25,92 ft / 7,90 m
- Forecastle (20%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (60%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Quarterdeck (19%): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 16,20 ft / 4,94 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109,9%
Waterplane Area: 31.846 Square feet or 2.959 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 167 lbs/sq ft or 815 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,31
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
There is a general consensus of 6 gun ships having gunnery difficulties.
I'd rather have 8x305mm that 6x340mm
Quote from: Marek Gutkowski on March 26, 2010, 05:42:07 PM
There is a general consensus of 6 gun ships having gunnery difficulties.
I'd rather have 8x305mm that 6x340mm
There is also a general consensus that a 12" gun wouldn't be able to kill a modern BB.
Quote from: Carthaginian on March 26, 2010, 06:06:16 PM
Quote from: Marek Gutkowski on March 26, 2010, 05:42:07 PM
There is a general consensus of 6 gun ships having gunnery difficulties.
I'd rather have 8x305mm that 6x340mm
There is also a general consensus that a 12" gun wouldn't be able to kill a modern BB.
Should an 18k BB be expected to kill a modern BB though? Shouldn't it be expected to kill a modern cruiser/older BB and require the enemy to commit a modern BB to counter it, thereby tying up his/her valuable resources?
This shouldn't be seen as a fleet unit, but a glorified CDBB that CAN fill in at the end of the line IF in dire straits.
What would two more guns cost? 2000ish tons? I think it would be worth it.
I just tried, and it can be done for 1Kton, but that sacrifices the stability to the absolute minimum(but that can be solved with the trim tab) and seakeeping isn't up to par for French standards. On the other hand, only 19Kton for something that can stand in the battleline, for a short while at least.
QuoteRepulse mini, French Light Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
19.000 t light; 20.469 t standard; 22.395 t normal; 23.936 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 78,74 ft (Bulges 93,50 ft) x 25,59 ft (normal load)
170,00 m / 169,00 m x 24,00 m (Bulges 28,50 m) x 7,80 m
Armament:
8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
Weight of broadside 12.052 lbs / 5.467 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 338,22 ft / 103,09 m 16,00 ft / 4,88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 94% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1,50" / 38 mm 338,22 ft / 103,09 m 24,00 ft / 7,32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 13,0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 35.881 shp / 26.767 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.467 tons
Complement:
914 - 1.189
Cost:
£4,289 million / $17,155 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.326 tons, 5,9%
Armour: 7.694 tons, 34,4%
- Belts: 3.086 tons, 13,8%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 451 tons, 2,0%
- Armament: 2.178 tons, 9,7%
- Armour Deck: 1.757 tons, 7,8%
- Conning Tower: 223 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 1.337 tons, 6,0%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.293 tons, 37,0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.395 tons, 15,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27.854 lbs / 12.634 Kg = 23,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,06
Metacentric height 3,9 ft / 1,2 m
Roll period: 19,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,17
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,591
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25,92 ft / 7,90 m
- Forecastle (20%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (60%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Quarterdeck (19%): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 16,20 ft / 4,94 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104,5%
Waterplane Area: 31.657 Square feet or 2.941 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 869 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,35
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
It's now looking like one of the options the Bavarians have been looking at to field something to anchor their cruisers against anything less than a true BB. However I don't think I will wind up choosing that variant. Not quite to my needs.
Would it be the mini-BB built by the Dutch in WW?
The Ijelsijk class ? Not quite, both different engine tech and design goals. Size wise they come out similar, but I was tending towards 8x330/345mm rather than 6x380mm. Many of the designs were working out to about 19-23k tons, but I have designs running up to as much as 40k just as concept explorations. Bavaria's need for such things is, however, just a bit limited, so # built will be 0 - 2, depending on events.