This thread shall be for BB + BC designsI went and revisited the battlecruiser concept and it spawned this pocket BB.
Main Belt is, as always, inclined 20 degrees.
QuoteHuangshan, RRC Battleship laid down 1920
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 17,947 t standard; 18,990 t normal; 19,824 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 26.82 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,525.00lbs / 691.73kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 10,019 lbs / 4,545 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 14.90 ft / 4.54 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 190.00 ft / 57.91 m 14.90 ft / 4.54 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 81,833 shp / 61,047 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,877 tons
Complement:
808 - 1,051
Cost:
£4.612 million / $18.448 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,138 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 4,582 tons, 24.1 %
- Belts: 2,312 tons, 12.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 985 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,225 tons, 6.4 %
- Conning Tower: 61 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,861 tons, 15.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,088 tons, 42.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,990 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 331 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,632 lbs / 9,358 Kg = 15.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.77 ft / 0.23 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 20.94 ft / 6.38 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.4 %
Waterplane Area: 33,096 Square feet or 3,075 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 834 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.15
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
I really don't want to drive you crazy or irritate you on this, but there was a reason that no nation ever put above-water torpedoes on a battleship. A potential shell hit on one could cause the warhead and the fuel to simultanously explode, which could easily penetrate the armoured deck, not to mention what it would do to crew of the 5'' guns. Without those, I like it. It's somewhat like the 17,000 ton 4x13.5'' 33 knot ships I'm playing with as I write this.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=KMS-Deutschland-Lutzow
Quote8 x 533mm 21" torpedo tubes
to big of main guns, not enough armor, not fast enough the 1.09 Stability isnt to bad, nor are the .69 recoil and 65% Steadiness, but the 1.01 Seakeaping is just flat scary. One hit anywhere and she is in serisous danger of geting this message from SS "Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability" and that is a bad thing with battle damage.
I think you would be better off if you want to build somthing like the Whealers or my CCs to go with a max of 12" guns, put the diferance into making them faster (30 knots minimum so it can run from anything it cant smash up)
I played with a similar idea for the NS only I would have used quad 14" guns on an I class hull (yes it will work) but decided against it in the end.
He doesn't have 12'' guns. Closest he has is 11''L45-50's and 13''L35's.
So develop one, or convince someone to lisence you one with its mount. Not to Detract from the above posted ship but at one point the NS seriously considerd building this (under me obviously) I decided against it but I cant for the life of me remember why.
USNSS Inflexible (final), USNS Battlecruiser laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
24,000 t light; 25,222 t standard; 28,293 t normal; 30,750 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
719.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
219.15 m / 213.36 m x 28.04 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (10 mounts), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 8 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (2x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm guns (3x2 guns), 4.00lbs / 1.81kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,643 lbs / 5,281 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 448.00 ft / 136.55 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 448.00 ft / 136.55 m 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 79,849 shp / 59,567 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,527 tons
Complement:
1,089 - 1,417
Cost:
£3.648 million / $14.593 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,455 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 7,916 tons, 28.0 %
- Belts: 3,378 tons, 11.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 659 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 1,270 tons, 4.5 %
- Armour Deck: 2,409 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 200 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,184 tons, 11.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,066 tons, 39.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,293 tons, 15.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 379 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36,779 lbs / 16,682 Kg = 26.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.33
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.56 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (70 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (16 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 19.78 ft / 6.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.1 %
Waterplane Area: 43,404 Square feet or 4,032 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 866 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc. Weight: 379 tons
250 tons FC
25 tons Wireless
25 tons Flag Facilities
25 tons Crew Comfort
25 tons Radar instalation
25 tons Reserved
2 tons Capitans Quarters
2 Tons Flag Quarters
Not a bad 1915 BC...
;)
The armor, I believe, is enough for the opponents it'll face.
If I take the Wheeler guns as the unit of measure for the armor, the Wheeler needs to be within 12,000 yds to penetrate the main belt, the Huangshan will have been firing for quite sometime already. It wouldn't meet larger ships (scouting?) and have the speed to match or escape such ships.
28kts, IMO is already fast enough; its not a cruiser, its a practically a battlecruiser, abet a light one at that.
Besides, I only have a 12" L40 and would need a
longer main belt to cover the citadel (4 turrets as opposed to 2) whereas I am using a 14" L45 here. Much more range.
Doubtless this ship could be much better armor if I bumped the weight up, but the point is to keep the ship at a low tonnage whilst allowing it to complete it's mission.
---------------------
Increased MB thickness by 1", reduced belt vertical height from 14' to 12'. Seakeeping bumped to 1.06.
QuoteHuangshan, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1920
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 17,947 t standard; 18,990 t normal; 19,824 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 26.82 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,525.00lbs / 691.73kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 10,019 lbs / 4,545 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 81,833 shp / 61,047 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,877 tons
Complement:
808 - 1,051
Cost:
£4.612 million / $18.448 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,138 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 4,490 tons, 23.6 %
- Belts: 2,220 tons, 11.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 969 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,225 tons, 6.4 %
- Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,861 tons, 15.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,195 tons, 43.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,990 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 316 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,165 lbs / 9,600 Kg = 15.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.05 ft / 0.32 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 21.94 ft / 6.69 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.8 %
Waterplane Area: 33,096 Square feet or 3,075 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 837 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
------------------
As for your design Tan:
Its slower by 1 kts
Its larger by 7ktons larger
It has nearly the same total broadside (the main battery broadside on mine is larger however)
Your belt isn't inclined, difference there.
Your bow and stern sections aren't armored at all.
I could do better if I wanted to increase the tonnage that much, the point is to keep the tonnage down. Does it seem like I have BP to throw around?
STILL TORPEDOES!!! DIDN'T I JUST TELL YOU THEY'RE BAD ON CAPITAL SHIPS!?!? ;D ;D
I would thing the massive secondary on Tan's ship is more of a problem. But again, they've been done and its now a battleship.
I hardly call a 17kton ship a battleship with the massive beasts people are building now. It's a very light battlecruiser bordering on heavy cruiser.
my point however remains salient, logi that one I posted was a 1915 BC with 1912 wngines, the belt was inclined I just didnt bother to post that it was (all the Is had a 10deg main belt incline) at 28 knots it will have to face ships like Asfaloth, and Montmedy (not to mention all the other 28 knot fast BBs people are playing with). it either has to be faster (2 knots + faster) or biger
hmmm ...
NUS like the max 170m concept for that kind of ship.
Exellent, just minors modifs for NUS Armada
;)
Tan either of your options provokes a larger ship.
And I know its was a 1915 ship with 1912 engines. My point still stands. For an upgrade of 7ktons, I might as well scrap the design and build my Juren instead.
Quote...STILL TORPEDOES!!! DIDN'T I JUST TELL YOU THEY'RE BAD ON CAPITAL SHIPS!?!?
TT could be placed on cruisers... all cruisers
You could add reload system too
;)
Quote from: Logi on December 29, 2009, 04:36:35 PM
Tan either of your options provokes a larger ship.
And I know its was a 1915 ship with 1912 engines. My point still stands. For an upgrade of 7ktons, I might as well scrap the design and build my Juren instead.
not realy logi you can do 6X12" on 30 knots with similar armor (trust me im building it in 1917)
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4205.msg48217#msg48217
thats the original it has grown a bit since that point however, its still 30 knots with 6X12" (it just weighs 500 tons more)
It's armored 6" on probably 10 degrees inclined whereas this design is 10" on 20 degrees inclined...
Not to mention my design can fit in a type 2 dock whereas yours needs a type 3 dock.
I hardly think that's similar armor. Let's just face it; we have different approaches to the navy. You can afford raider-cruisers to escort your fast battleships whereas this is already the fast battleship.
BP constraints produces different designs, let's just admit that and move on. I doubt we'll ever agree on this.
Quote from: Logi on December 29, 2009, 04:48:34 PM
It's armored 6" on probably 10 degrees inclined whereas this design is 10" on 20 degrees inclined...
Your right its on a 10 deg. Incline (mostly because its period apropriat)
Quote from: Logi on December 29, 2009, 04:48:34 PMNot to mention my design can fit in a type 2 dock whereas yours needs a type 3 dock....
I have type 3's coming out my ears... why not use them?
Quote from: Logi on December 29, 2009, 04:48:34 PM
I hardly think that's similar armor. Let's just face it; we have different approaches to the navy. You can afford raider-cruisers to escort your fast battleships whereas this is already the fast battleship.
Thats closer to a Heavy Cruiser but its not a fast BB, it just couldnt go toe to toe with ships like Asfaloth so why claim its in their class?
Quote from: Logi on December 29, 2009, 04:48:34 PMBP constraints produces different designs, let's just admit that and move on. I doubt we'll ever agree on this.
Yes they do and im not saying your wrong, simply that I think if you allowed yourself a small tonage increase you could do better, I have never said it was a bad ship Logi I do however think it could be alot better
QuoteI have type 3's coming out my ears... why not use them?
That's why I said its appropriate for your navy, not mine. I only have one type 3 dock.
QuoteThats closer to a Heavy Cruiser but its not a fast BB, it just couldnt go toe to toe with ships like Asfaloth so why claim its in their class?
Maybe by your standards, by the RRC runs its ship classifications by its own standard. If we ran by European nation's standard there would be nothing even close to a BB in our fleet.
QuoteYes they do and im not saying your wrong, simply that I think if you allowed yourself a small tonage increase you could do better, I have never said it was a bad ship Logi I do however think it could be alot better
Perhaps, the ship was originally 26ktons; I scaled by the ship to 17ktons. That tonnage increase isn't easy to swallow for the RRC.
Quote from: Logi on December 29, 2009, 05:14:31 PM
QuoteThats closer to a Heavy Cruiser but its not a fast BB, it just couldnt go toe to toe with ships like Asfaloth so why claim its in their class?
Maybe by your standards, by the RRC runs its ship classifications by its own standard. If we ran by European nation's standard there would be nothing even close to a BB in our fleet.
Actually, American standards. ;D
I just think a small increase in tonage would improve it alot (note I said small not like 9K or anything) maybe kick it up to like 18K and see what you can do.
For its size, it's a pretty handy looking ship. She's as fast or faster than any Iberian, DKB, or Swiss battlecruiser that I can think of, and has a good punch on her. Armor isn't awesome, but is okay.
I'd suggest trimming the main belt down to 100% of normal - use the savings to bump miscellaneous weight up a little so you can have FC + long-range wireless + flag + torps + a bit of reserve.
I'd normally agree on the matter of torps, but if they're parked aft on the quarterdeck, they don't pose a huge risk to the rest of the ship and could be useful if she wants to get somebody off her tail.
QuoteHuangshan, RRC Battleship laid down 1920
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,011 t standard; 20,086 t normal; 20,946 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 26.82 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 10,769 lbs / 4,885 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 356.00 ft / 108.51 m 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 194.00 ft / 59.13 m 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 84,175 shp / 62,795 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,936 tons
Complement:
843 - 1,096
Cost:
£4.722 million / $18.887 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,138 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 4,878 tons, 24.3 %
- Belts: 2,371 tons, 11.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,230 tons, 6.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,214 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 64 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,943 tons, 14.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,663 tons, 43.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,086 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 378 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,364 lbs / 10,598 Kg = 17.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.519
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.05 ft / 0.32 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (60 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 22.88 ft / 6.97 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.1 %
Waterplane Area: 32,808 Square feet or 3,048 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 867 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Much better, the belt is a little short for my tastes (as in verticly not horizontaly) but to each his own on that.
If I were to try to match out nation's "fast battleships" this is the product.
The gun arrangement is similar to the Dunkerque. Armor is inclined at 20 degrees, no decapping plate this time. (Maybe I should....)
QuoteSteel Filler, RRC Fast Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
32,000 t light; 33,350 t standard; 35,162 t normal; 36,612 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 103.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 31.39 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all aft
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (1x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 14,323 lbs / 6,497 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 21.30 ft / 6.49 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 21.30 ft / 6.49 m
1.00 ft / 0.30 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 5.00" / 127 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
3rd: 5.00" / 127 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
5th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 109,339 shp / 81,567 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,262 tons
Complement:
1,283 - 1,669
Cost:
£6.460 million / $25.839 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,512 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 12,076 tons, 34.3 %
- Belts: 6,027 tons, 17.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 870 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 2,071 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,992 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 116 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 4,074 tons, 11.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,920 tons, 39.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,162 tons, 9.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 418 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
46,864 lbs / 21,257 Kg = 34.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.592
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.30 ft / 6.19 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.9 %
Waterplane Area: 53,902 Square feet or 5,008 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 943 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Most recent update of the ship, getting closer to lay down date, so I'm trying to perfect it.
+2 k tons Displacement
+2 kts Speed
+Main Battery Armored Increased (+2/+1/+2) Face/Other/Barbette
+2" Conning Tower Armor
+2" End Belt spanning rest of the ship (from bow to stern)
+11t misc weight
+ Main Belt increased by 1"
- reduced main battery magazine to 60 per gun as opposed to previous 100 per gun
- removed Decapping Plate of 1.5"
- steadiness reduced
- seakeeping reduced
Main Belt is now external as opposed to the previous internal.
QuoteJuren, RRC Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
28,000 t light; 29,354 t standard; 30,973 t normal; 32,268 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
627.00 ft / 612.00 ft x 103.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
191.11 m / 186.54 m x 31.39 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 21,674 lbs / 9,831 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 60
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 212.00 ft / 64.62 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 58,277 shp / 43,475 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,914 tons
Complement:
1,166 - 1,517
Cost:
£7.003 million / $28.010 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,292 tons, 7.4 %
Armour: 10,325 tons, 33.3 %
- Belts: 4,185 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 947 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 2,634 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 2,452 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,171 tons, 7.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,789 tons, 41.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,973 tons, 9.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 422 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,515 lbs / 15,202 Kg = 24.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.555
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 29.47 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 16.33 ft / 4.98 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.6 %
Waterplane Area: 44,189 Square feet or 4,105 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 218 lbs/sq ft or 1,064 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.63
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (External) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 15 feet. The End belt has a gentle slope from 20 degrees back to vertical at the bow and stern of the ship.
Misc Weights (422t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
24t 21" Torpedoes
50t Extra Pumps
15t Flag Facilities
5t Climatization
28t Reserve Weight
Nice ship in general, but I'd go with a uniform 120mm or 140mm secondary instead of the mix of 152mm and 105mm. And I'd say 12 75mm guns for AA is overkill right now. 2 to 4 should be fine, maybe some 12.7mm or 10mm MGs for effect.
I agree on the AA suite.
What needs a 75mm gun to be shot from the sky? And in a heavy, bulky ,slow transversing twin turret?
The RRC has a 140mm/5.5" gun, why not a uniform secundary? Or , if the punch is needed, a uniform 6" secundary?
Improves lay out/fire arcs and facilitates aiming.
Knowing what the most likely opponent has on ships, I would even go for the 4.5" or 5" gun, and load up a gazillion of those.
QuoteJuren, RRC Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
28,000 t light; 29,330 t standard; 30,948 t normal; 32,243 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
627.00 ft / 612.00 ft x 103.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
191.11 m / 186.54 m x 31.39 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
24 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (12x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 21,067 lbs / 9,556 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 60
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 212.00 ft / 64.62 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 58,238 shp / 43,445 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,913 tons
Complement:
1,166 - 1,516
Cost:
£6.863 million / $27.452 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,216 tons, 7.2 %
Armour: 10,359 tons, 33.5 %
- Belts: 4,185 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 947 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 2,648 tons, 8.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,451 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Tower: 127 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,170 tons, 7.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,779 tons, 41.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,948 tons, 9.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 476 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,151 lbs / 15,491 Kg = 24.9 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.554
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 29.47 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 16.33 ft / 4.98 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.5 %
Waterplane Area: 44,170 Square feet or 4,104 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 218 lbs/sq ft or 1,064 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.63
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (External) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 15 feet. The End belt has a gentle slope from 20 degrees back to vertical at the bow and stern of the ship.
Misc Weights (476t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
24t 21" Torpedoes
100t Extra Pumps
15t Flag Facilities
5t Climatization
32t Reserve Weight
Now that is a BB I don't want to meet in a dark alley.
Quote from: maddox on March 07, 2010, 09:00:01 AM
Now that is a BB I don't want to meet in a dark alley.
I was just thinking the same thing. Very nice job Logi.
A slight modification puts this forward:
QuoteHaze, RRC Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
28,000 t light; 29,154 t standard; 30,782 t normal; 32,084 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
645.00 ft / 630.00 ft x 105.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
196.60 m / 192.02 m x 32.00 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
8 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x4 guns), 2,500.00lbs / 1,133.98kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
24 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (12x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 21,267 lbs / 9,647 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 45
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 230.00 ft / 70.10 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 57,849 shp / 43,156 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,930 tons
Complement:
1,161 - 1,510
Cost:
£6.840 million / $27.361 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,206 tons, 7.2 %
Armour: 10,036 tons, 32.6 %
- Belts: 4,369 tons, 14.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 858 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 2,091 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,590 tons, 8.4 %
- Conning Tower: 127 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,155 tons, 7.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,193 tons, 42.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,782 tons, 9.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 409 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,042 lbs / 15,895 Kg = 17.1 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.562
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 29.47 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 16.33 ft / 4.98 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.4 %
Waterplane Area: 46,671 Square feet or 4,336 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 218 lbs/sq ft or 1,065 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (External) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 15 feet. The End belt has a gentle slope from 20 degrees back to vertical at the bow and stern of the ship.
Misc Weights (409t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
24t 21" Torpedoes
40t Extra Pumps
15t Flag Facilities
5t Climatization
25t Reserve Weight
I see my plan is already paying off...
Oh don't worry your little hat off, the RRC won't be the ones constructing these.
QuoteFortress, RRC Coastal Battleship laid down 1921 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 21,185 t standard; 21,746 t normal; 22,195 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.90 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.32 m x 7.47 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (10x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 13,136 lbs / 5,958 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
3 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 117.00 ft / 35.66 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 122 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 24,614 shp / 18,362 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,010 tons
Complement:
894 - 1,163
Cost:
£5.620 million / $22.478 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,642 tons, 7.6 %
Armour: 8,470 tons, 38.9 %
- Belts: 3,666 tons, 16.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 977 tons, 4.5 %
- Armament: 1,525 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 2,101 tons, 9.7 %
- Conning Tower: 201 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 917 tons, 4.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,647 tons, 39.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,746 tons, 8.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,010 lbs / 11,798 Kg = 19.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (11.00 ft / 3.35 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 14.02 ft / 4.27 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.1 %
Waterplane Area: 37,858 Square feet or 3,517 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 180 lbs/sq ft or 878 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.23
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
A MAJOR lesson on how to do more with less.
The RRC is churning out some very respectable designs these days.
I think her beam's a little narrow for quads, but otherwise a very economic package for a coastal unit.
Oh, I can buy it. It's just 4 meters slimmer then Richelieu, and it mounts 14'' guns.
Rock I think she is OK, she is wider then Normandie which was suposed to mount Quads.
The scary part for me is the range. Probebly stands to be doubled, for a decent ship.
I agree with Tex.
Double the range & change the name to "light battleship".
Chinese Admirals would be happy to add this ship in the battleline.
Jef
What Chinese battleline? Why wasn't I informed there was such a thing?
Why did you need to know?
Beside repeating the range comment (to 6000@12), I say you need to increase freeboard aft (1-2'). You don't need that deep main belt. In the design you have a deck 3' above waterline. Although if you increase freeboard by 2' the 12' deep belt would be fine.
Also increase draught, that'd give you some of the necessary structural strength. Delete two secondary mounts, but move two into B and X.
Option A:
QuoteFortress, RRC Coastal Battleship laid down 1921 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 21,166 t standard; 22,183 t normal; 22,997 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.90 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.32 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
Weight of broadside 12,704 lbs / 5,762 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
3 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 117.00 ft / 35.66 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 122 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 24,602 shp / 18,353 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,831 tons
Complement:
908 - 1,181
Cost:
£5.504 million / $22.016 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,588 tons, 7.2 %
Armour: 8,465 tons, 38.2 %
- Belts: 3,659 tons, 16.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 977 tons, 4.4 %
- Armament: 1,569 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 2,056 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 204 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 917 tons, 4.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,647 tons, 39.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,183 tons, 9.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 384 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28,036 lbs / 12,717 Kg = 20.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.577
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 14.85 ft / 4.52 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.5 %
Waterplane Area: 37,042 Square feet or 3,441 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 875 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.39
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Option B:
QuoteFortress, RRC Coastal Battleship laid down 1921 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 21,291 t standard; 22,307 t normal; 23,120 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.90 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.32 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
Weight of broadside 14,928 lbs / 6,771 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
3 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 137.00 ft / 41.76 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 116 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 24,475 shp / 18,258 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,829 tons
Complement:
912 - 1,186
Cost:
£5.502 million / $22.009 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,588 tons, 7.1 %
Armour: 8,040 tons, 36.0 %
- Belts: 3,152 tons, 14.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,049 tons, 4.7 %
- Armament: 1,562 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 2,021 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 256 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 912 tons, 4.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,115 tons, 40.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,307 tons, 10.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 345 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,704 lbs / 12,567 Kg = 20.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.559
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (11.00 ft / 3.35 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 14.67 ft / 4.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102.2 %
Waterplane Area: 36,413 Square feet or 3,383 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 190 lbs/sq ft or 930 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Whilst my internet and computer have been dead, I have been working on these designs:
A whole set of Armored Cruiser Designs
QuoteNu Li, Chinese Armoured Cruiser laid down 1921 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
19,000 t light; 19,677 t standard; 20,658 t normal; 21,443 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 91.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 27.74 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,698 lbs / 3,492 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 60
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 374.00 ft / 114.00 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 374.00 ft / 114.00 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 77,870 shp / 58,091 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,766 tons
Complement:
861 - 1,120
Cost:
£4.496 million / $17.986 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 828 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 6,747 tons, 32.7 %
- Belts: 2,290 tons, 11.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 637 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 1,688 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,035 tons, 9.9 %
- Conning Tower: 97 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,901 tons, 14.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,222 tons, 39.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,658 tons, 8.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 302 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,270 lbs / 13,730 Kg = 45.5 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.602
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.04 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.25 ft / 0.69 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (60 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 23.36 ft / 7.12 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 187.8 %
Waterplane Area: 36,672 Square feet or 3,407 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 782 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.91
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
QuoteGong Zuo, Chinese Armoured Cruiser laid down 1921 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 20,716 t standard; 21,719 t normal; 22,521 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 91.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 27.74 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 865.00lbs / 392.36kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,218 lbs / 3,728 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 60
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 393.00 ft / 119.79 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 393.00 ft / 119.79 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 92,161 shp / 68,752 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,805 tons
Complement:
893 - 1,162
Cost:
£4.775 million / $19.101 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 828 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 6,717 tons, 30.9 %
- Belts: 2,158 tons, 9.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 836 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 1,954 tons, 9.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,668 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Tower: 101 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,434 tons, 15.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,722 tons, 40.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,719 tons, 7.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,424 lbs / 13,800 Kg = 45.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 4.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.584
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.04 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.50 ft / 0.76 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Mid (60 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m (19.00 ft / 5.79 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 25.36 ft / 7.73 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 193.5 %
Waterplane Area: 36,067 Square feet or 3,351 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 166 lbs/sq ft or 812 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.21
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
QuoteFuchin, Chinese Armoured Cruiser laid down 1921 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 20,760 t standard; 21,765 t normal; 22,569 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 555.00 ft x 91.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.16 m x 27.74 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9,530 lbs / 4,323 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 60
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 122 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 91,568 shp / 68,310 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,808 tons
Complement:
895 - 1,164
Cost:
£5.545 million / $22.179 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,191 tons, 5.5 %
Armour: 6,210 tons, 28.5 %
- Belts: 2,355 tons, 10.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 749 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 1,329 tons, 6.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,677 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Tower: 101 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,412 tons, 15.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,868 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,765 tons, 8.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 319 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,704 lbs / 11,659 Kg = 18.7 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.580
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.69 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (60 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 23.52 ft / 7.17 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.7 %
Waterplane Area: 36,257 Square feet or 3,368 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 835 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.15
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
A stripped down Nu Li design brings this forward.
QuoteChangzhang, Chinese Intermediate Cruiser laid down 1921 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
13,000 t light; 13,640 t standard; 14,412 t normal; 15,030 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 75.50 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 23.01 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,696 lbs / 3,491 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 57,557 shp / 42,938 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,390 tons
Complement:
656 - 854
Cost:
£3.692 million / $14.767 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 828 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 3,504 tons, 24.3 %
- Belts: 1,540 tons, 10.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,129 tons, 7.8 %
- Armour Deck: 772 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 64 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,144 tons, 14.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,207 tons, 43.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,412 tons, 9.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 317 tons, 2.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,553 lbs / 7,055 Kg = 23.4 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.506
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.28 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.90 ft / 0.58 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (60 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (11.00 ft / 3.35 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 17.44 ft / 5.31 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.8 %
Waterplane Area: 27,823 Square feet or 2,585 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 750 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.61
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
QuoteGummoun, Chinese Battleship laid down 1921 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
30,000 t light; 31,364 t standard; 32,669 t normal; 33,713 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
650.00 ft / 639.00 ft x 104.00 ft x 30.50 ft (normal load)
198.12 m / 194.77 m x 31.70 m x 9.30 m
Armament:
8 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,951.09lbs / 885.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,951.09lbs / 885.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline amidships
24 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (12x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 20,777 lbs / 9,424 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 60
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 16.64 ft / 5.07 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 229.00 ft / 69.80 m 16.64 ft / 5.07 m
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 14.0" / 356 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 59,464 shp / 44,360 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,349 tons
Complement:
1,214 - 1,579
Cost:
£8.275 million / $33.101 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,251 tons, 6.9 %
Armour: 11,509 tons, 35.2 %
- Belts: 4,483 tons, 13.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 880 tons, 2.7 %
- Armament: 3,428 tons, 10.5 %
- Armour Deck: 2,608 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 110 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,215 tons, 6.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,700 tons, 41.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,669 tons, 8.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37,743 lbs / 17,120 Kg = 22.5 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 6.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.564
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.17 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.55 ft / 0.78 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 16.52 ft / 5.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.3 %
Waterplane Area: 46,997 Square feet or 4,366 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 221 lbs/sq ft or 1,080 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.36
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
And this can be done as well...
QuoteCA20, Republic of China Armoured Cruiser laid down 1921 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
13,000 t light; 13,623 t standard; 14,638 t normal; 15,450 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 76.10 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 23.20 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
8 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (4x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,244 lbs / 3,286 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 382.00 ft / 116.43 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 58,284 shp / 43,480 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,827 tons
Complement:
665 - 865
Cost:
£3.590 million / $14.359 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 775 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 3,521 tons, 24.1 %
- Belts: 1,652 tons, 11.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,023 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 781 tons, 5.3 %
- Conning Tower: 64 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,172 tons, 14.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,221 tons, 42.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,638 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 2.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,343 lbs / 7,413 Kg = 24.4 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.510
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.23 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.90 ft / 0.58 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (60 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (11.00 ft / 3.35 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 17.36 ft / 5.29 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.6 %
Waterplane Area: 28,144 Square feet or 2,615 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 153 lbs/sq ft or 747 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
20 Degrees Incline for Belt (External), vertical height is 12ft
Misc Weight: 325 Tons
250t Fire Control System
25t Radar
25t Long-Range Wireless
15t Flagship Facilities
10t Medical Facilities
With triples.
QuoteCA21, Republic of China Armoured Cruiser laid down 1921 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
13,000 t light; 13,599 t standard; 14,370 t normal; 14,987 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 75.50 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 23.01 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
9 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,835 lbs / 3,100 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 57,413 shp / 42,830 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,387 tons
Complement:
656 - 853
Cost:
£3.747 million / $14.989 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 854 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 3,454 tons, 24.0 %
- Belts: 1,476 tons, 10.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,156 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 771 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,139 tons, 14.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,241 tons, 43.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,370 tons, 9.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 2.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,422 lbs / 6,995 Kg = 23.2 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.28 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.90 ft / 0.58 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (60 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 17.84 ft / 5.44 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.4 %
Waterplane Area: 27,785 Square feet or 2,581 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 752 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.62
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
With 1920 Engine tech.
QuoteCA21, Republic of China Armoured Cruiser laid down 1921
Displacement:
13,000 t light; 13,597 t standard; 14,265 t normal; 14,799 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 78.00 ft x 23.50 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 23.77 m x 7.16 m
Armament:
9 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,835 lbs / 3,100 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 371.00 ft / 113.08 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 57,197 shp / 42,669 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,202 tons
Complement:
652 - 848
Cost:
£3.687 million / $14.747 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 854 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 3,511 tons, 24.6 %
- Belts: 1,515 tons, 10.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,156 tons, 8.1 %
- Armour Deck: 790 tons, 5.5 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,970 tons, 13.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,353 tons, 44.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,265 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 2.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,209 lbs / 7,352 Kg = 24.4 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.90 ft / 0.58 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (60 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 17.76 ft / 5.41 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.8 %
Waterplane Area: 28,460 Square feet or 2,644 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 762 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.63
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Just 7ktons over the Treaty limit. What a good treaty breaker, haha.
QuoteMaximum Design, ??? Battleship laid down 1920
Displacement:
47,000 t light; 49,537 t standard; 51,528 t normal; 53,121 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
714.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 115.00 ft x 36.00 ft (normal load)
217.63 m / 213.36 m x 35.05 m x 10.97 m
Armament:
12 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,700.00lbs / 1,224.70kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 33,650 lbs / 15,263 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 21.90 ft / 6.68 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 245.00 ft / 74.68 m 21.90 ft / 6.68 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 40.00 ft / 12.19 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 7.00" / 178 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 77,889 shp / 58,105 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,584 tons
Complement:
1,709 - 2,223
Cost:
£11.199 million / $44.796 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,228 tons, 6.3 %
Armour: 20,774 tons, 40.3 %
- Belts: 7,185 tons, 13.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,684 tons, 3.3 %
- Armament: 3,673 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 7,785 tons, 15.1 %
- Conning Tower: 447 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,723 tons, 5.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,800 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,528 tons, 8.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 474 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
67,926 lbs / 30,811 Kg = 33.2 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 12.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 7.3 ft / 2.2 m
Roll period: 17.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.82
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.622
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.0 %
Waterplane Area: 60,113 Square feet or 5,585 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 245 lbs/sq ft or 1,196 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.62
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Small Montana or a Uparmed/armored short Iowa. Now to add ~40-60 40mm and ~70-80 20mm AA. :P
Curiously enough, you got close. This design started as a Colorado copy then I tried to fit the Montana armament onto it (four triple 16"s) and then I tweaked and tweaked and came out like an Alsace.
Now a actual idea. Aircraft power has been proven during war and is thus enticing to have a presence always at sea when out of range of Republican Air Bases.
However, the real reason the idea is offered up is to have scouting of enemy forces occur. This would allow sighting enemy ships movements while at sea and thus maneuver to avoid. If the Flying Fish Y.II is used it would take barely over ten minutes to reach a target 20,000 yds away and report back.
That sort of time loss is acceptable. Having a heads up will allow greater chance of evading the torpedo attacks of enemy ships as well as keeping out of range of the enemy and just within range of the 11" guns of Huang Hun and Li Ming. The aircraft can also be used to launch an offensive attack, most likely strafing enemy ships and torpedoing (though torpedo is such an unrefined art).
This is in effect, a fleet escort, used for scouting and the occasional attack (when planes are used to attack, they will be used against the enemy screen, not the capital ships).
The armament is heavily anti-attack, to prevent the most ironic form of lost (lose to enemy air attack) and to try to shoot down enemy scouts as well. What is missing in accuracy of the antiaircraft fire is made up for in the volume of fire presented by the 1.6"/2-pounder "Pom-pom" which lays down almost a hundred rounds of shells per minute.
There is light anti-torpedoboat armament, but it is expected that the taskforce the escort is in will protect it from such attacks. The speed of the escort allows it operation with the Huang Hun and Li Ming.
QuoteYichang, RRC Carrier Escort laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
4,000 t light; 4,136 t standard; 4,630 t normal; 5,026 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 56.25 ft x 16.00 ft (normal load)
120.00 m / 120.00 m x 17.15 m x 4.88 m
Armament:
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
32 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (8x4 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 347 lbs / 157 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 27,650 shp / 20,627 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 890 tons
Complement:
279 - 364
Cost:
£0.758 million / $3.033 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 44 tons, 0.9 %
Armour: 53 tons, 1.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 23 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 30 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 1,030 tons, 22.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,882 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 630 tons, 13.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 991 tons, 21.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,551 lbs / 2,972 Kg = 185.5 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.85
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.457
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 31.00 ft / 9.45 m (21.00 ft / 6.40 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 203.8 %
Waterplane Area: 14,212 Square feet or 1,320 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 75 lbs/sq ft or 366 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 4.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Two Lightweight Hangars
Hurricane Bow
Misc Weight (991 tons)
841 tons - 29 Aircraft (4 Scouts, 15 Torpedo Bombers)
100 tons - Fire Control System/Director (for coordinating the many small guns on the ship)
25 tons - Long Range Wireless
25 tons - Radar
Totally impossible.
The nearest carrier I can think of is Ryujo- and she was almost twice that size with only 33% more aircraft... and had MAJOR handling problems in any kind of real weather.
You'll need to double the tonnage to get something with that kind of air wing, at least.
That is totally discounting the fact that the ship is in NO WAY bulky enough to store the aircraft in the number you suggest- Furious managed to carry only 10 aircraft under her similarly-sized forward hanger before her total conversion... not to mention that you ain't got the deckspace needed to house a 10m elevator and sufficient flying-off deck to get the aircraft aloft- to say nothing about RECOVERY.
In short- a nice idea, but entirely too much on too little.
A similar concept for the CSA is 50% bigger and only has about 16 aircraft with 4 spares in crates.
Oh, and you have the kind of AA suite that a WWII ship would have carried with none of the operational experience that generated such a loadout.
I would like to see the drawing of this small carrier...
Jef
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=418 (http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=418)
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-l/cve1.htm (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-l/cve1.htm)
This is the smallest 'useful' carrier I found.
The upper link is stats for the ship, the lower is US Navy photos. One especially revealing photo (80-G-236393) shows this ship- MUCH larger than yours- with 43 aircraft on her deck... and how utterly insanely the deck is packed gives you an idea of how little room there would be on your carrier. In fact, Long Island only carried 21 aircraft when in active use; this is fewer aircraft than your ship claims to be carrying on 30x3m and 7,000 TONS less!
Well these are WWI biplanes... I think this ship is a seaplane carrier so the airwing would be more reasonable then.
I think it depends. Aircraft carriers are volume sensitive as well as being weight sensitive. SS doesn't have much of a concept of volume sensitivity, other than it's idea of above and below decks space being excellent, adequate, or cramped, etc.
Assuming this is a seaplane carrier, I suspect that so many aircraft could be carried, as long as a good number of them are stowed partially disassembled to take up less space. Take a Sopwith Cuckoo for example:
Length: 28 ft 6 in (8.68 m)
Wingspan: 46 ft 9 in (14.25 m)
Height: 10 ft 8 in (3.25 m)
Wing area: 566 ft² (52.6 m²)
So lets say with wings folded or stowed alongside the fuselage, you've got a unit 28.5 feet long and roughly 14 feet wide. So on this ship's maximum beam, 4 stowed as such could be stowed abreast, but along most of the length of the ship that maximum would be 3 or maybe even 2. If the entire length of the quarterdeck is hanger, it's 196 feet long. That means 6 rows. 6x4 abreast would be 24, but realistically you're looking at more like 20, maybe 18.
So if we say 18 can be stowed in usable form, that leaves 11 or so that have to stowed below decks or elsewhere on the ship broken down. This doesn't seem too insane to me. A bigger problem may be where the relatively large number of aircraft torpedos should go.
The 29 aircraft are actually a typo (I think), cause he mentions only 15 torpedo bombers and 4 scouts. That would be very reasonable numbers for a seaplane carrier. The armament, now that IS a problem...
From the description of the armament layout and it's hull lines, the ship looks to be a flattop... perhaps not a true carrier, but certainly a 'flattop.' When I read it, I pictured a vessel similar to the following ship classes (links to ships):
HMAS Albatross http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Albatross_%281928%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Albatross_%281928%29)
U.S.S. Langley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Langley_%28CV-1%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Langley_%28CV-1%29)*
Akitsu Maru http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=1184 (http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=1184)
Such a ship is constructed specifically to carry aircraft in a hanger below decks, and to launch them from a flying-off deck. Given the way that such a ship is constructed, it'd be impossible to get a ship this small to function in that way. There's just not enough volume to get it to happen.
Also, Guinness... I think that having folding wing aircraft on this ship is putting the cart before the horse. Aircraft with folding wings were a
product of shipboard aviation rather than an enabling agent. IMO, unless a nation has real carrier tech (at least 1918 level, where aircraft are being stored in hangers aboard ship) then they shouldn't have made that 'leap of faith' to have the wings of an aircraft fold up for easy storage.
*after conversion to a seaplane carrier
Quote from: Desertfox on July 15, 2010, 11:05:38 AM
The 29 aircraft are actually a typo (I think), cause he mentions only 15 torpedo bombers and 4 scouts. That would be very reasonable numbers for a seaplane carrier. The armament, now that IS a problem...
DF, you are aware that ships nearly twice the size of this one only had 35-ish plane strong air wings... right? The number is at least 1/3 again as large a complement as this ship could be carrying, if the ship is carrying small scouts. It's likely twice as large as it should be if the ship is carrying something able to carry a torpedo.
When I described the wings, I had in mind an arrangement where they'd been unbolted from the fuselage, not properly folded, but I agree that true folding wings would surely be the product of the appropriate aircraft carrier tech level, either 1918 or maybe even 1922.
Ah... my misunderstanding- you say 'folded,' I see 'hinged.'
The Albatross is, as I look at it more, a lot like this ship in size and scope... so a 9 plane wing with a few spares (2-3) might be realistic, but not almost 20 planes.
Length x bean/100 sq ft deck space x 80%=
700 x 100=7000/100=70 x 80%=56 planes.
That is my operational definition for any carrier I expect using 1918-1928 planes.
D.
QuoteTotally impossible.
The nearest carrier I can think of is Ryujo- and she was almost twice that size with only 33% more aircraft... and had MAJOR handling problems in any kind of real weather.
You'll need to double the tonnage to get something with that kind of air wing, at least.
The Ryujo also went 29 kts and has a bunker of 10,000nm @ 14kts (compared to 26kts and 8,000nm @ 12 kts).
Not to mention the Ryujo was a flying-off deck carrier. Furthermore, the Ryujo was built with an inherently low freeboard, no doubt contributing to the handling problems in heavy weather you mentioned. (No doubt this is not exactly better, but it is still on par with other such ships in size in handling).
Not really, Ryujo was also converted to a flying-off-deck carrier from a seaplane tender halfway through construction. This does not lead to the most optimal construction and design for a carrier.
QuoteIn short- a nice idea, but entirely too much on too little.
A similar concept for the CSA is 50% bigger and only has about 16 aircraft with 4 spares in crates.
Oh, and you have the kind of AA suite that a WWII ship would have carried with none of the operational experience that generated such a loadout.
I cannot find the CSA ship so I will refrain from commenting on it.
The AA side is such.... 4 guns per side, each gun is a quadruple mount, thus 16 guns per side. The guns can not shoot over beam as they are mounted below the deck. (The deck is pretty much clear of objects in order to allow temporary storage of planes on the deck.)
These 4 guns must be manually trained and elevated, have a short engagement range, and are relatively inaccurate. Your comment would be fitting if these weapons were not spray-and-hope-to-hit weapons (in light of the lack of good directors and tracer rounds from AAW).
Besides the ships is a fleet escort and there is a distinct lack of AAW weapons in the navy, it is hoped that the robust and large AAW suite of the Yichang will provide for the rest of the taskforce.
QuoteThis is the smallest 'useful' carrier I found.
The upper link is stats for the ship, the lower is US Navy photos. One especially revealing photo (80-G-236393) shows this ship- MUCH larger than yours- with 43 aircraft on her deck... and how utterly insanely the deck is packed gives you an idea of how little room there would be on your carrier. In fact, Long Island only carried 21 aircraft when in active use; this is fewer aircraft than your ship claims to be carrying on 30x3m and 7,000 TONS less!
The Long Island was a conversion and a flying-off-deck carrier (not to mention the shortened flight deck for additional AA weapons). Again, inefficient design.
QuoteSo if we say 18 can be stowed in usable form, that leaves 11 or so that have to stowed below decks or elsewhere on the ship broken down. This doesn't seem too insane to me. A bigger problem may be where the relatively large number of aircraft torpedoes should go.
Actually you reminded me that I forgot to include the torpedo weights in the ship. Expect a reworked version soon.
The ship uses two hangars, if you didn't read that, thus the numbers of planes the ship can carry is roughly twice of all your calculations.
I used these rules and almost 100% of hangar capacities.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3237.0
I will produce the updated version of this seaplane tender and an alternative flying-off-deck carrier soon.
Quote from: Logi on July 15, 2010, 01:52:04 PM
The Ryujo also went 29 kts and has a bunker of 10,000nm @ 14kts (compared to 26kts and 8,000nm @ 12 kts).
Not to mention the Ryujo was a flying-off deck carrier. Furthermore, the Ryujo was built with an inherently low freeboard, no doubt contributing to the handling problems in heavy weather you mentioned. (No doubt this is not exactly better, but it is still on par with other such ships in size in handling).
Not really, Ryujo was also converted to a flying-off-deck carrier from a seaplane tender halfway through construction. This does not lead to the most optimal construction and design for a carrier.
Your ship is still smaller by more than half, only a couple of knots slower, and still only half as big and is trying to cram 60% of
Ryujo's air wing into a space that is DRASTICALLY INSUFFICIENT! Hell, your ship is almost ounce-for-ounce the size of the
Albatross (but with a drastically narrowed beam)... AND CARRIES DOUBLE THE AIRWING!
Quote from: Logi on July 15, 2010, 01:52:04 PM
I cannot find the CSA ship so I will refrain from commenting on it.
The AA side is such.... 4 guns per side, each gun is a quadruple mount, thus 16 guns per side. The guns can not shoot over beam as they are mounted below the deck. (The deck is pretty much clear of objects in order to allow temporary storage of planes on the deck.)
These 4 guns must be manually trained and elevated, have a short engagement range, and are relatively inaccurate. Your comment would be fitting if these weapons were not spray-and-hope-to-hit weapons (in light of the lack of good directors and tracer rounds from AAW).
Besides the ships is a fleet escort and there is a distinct lack of AAW weapons in the navy, it is hoped that the robust and large AAW suite of the Yichang will provide for the rest of the taskforce.
You cannot find the CSA ship because it has not been posted.
In fact, only one ally knows about it, and then only OoC. The stroyline will be posted before the ship is. I will say that the ship is roughly the size of a WWII escort carrier and has a rather limited air group of only 16 scout planes. It also has a VERY limited amount of weapons. I will say that it has a 250' flying-off deck, 30' elevator and a spacious handling deck aft, with the funnel exhausting to the port side.
Your ship has the equivalent of quad 40mm Bofors in numbers that only a WWII Jeep carrier might mount. As a man who knows a damn good bit about firearms, I can say on some authority that ANY AAA is actually a 'spray and pray' weapon unless it is radar guided and has proximity fused munitions.
It's not in keeping with either the times or the RRC's level of combat experience.
Quote from: Logi on July 15, 2010, 01:52:04 PM
The Long Island was a conversion and a flying-off-deck carrier (not to mention the shortened flight deck for additional AA weapons). Again, inefficient design.
Actually you reminded me that I forgot to include the torpedo weights in the ship. Expect a reworked version soon.
The ship uses two hangars, if you didn't read that, thus the numbers of planes the ship can carry is roughly twice of all your calculations.
I used these rules and almost 100% of hangar capacities.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3237.0
I will produce the updated version of this seaplane tender and an alternative flying-off-deck carrier soon.
In the first place, our rules assume a FLATTOP carrier rather than the seaplane carrier you are producing. Your hanger capacity should be reduced to a sane level accordingly. Also, tacking on another hanger deck will play hell with all the ship's handling characteristics.
When we drafted the aircraft carrier rules, I'll admit I only considered them WRT flattop "real" aircraft carriers, and not seaplane tenders. We might need to revisit their application in the latter case. On the one hand, a seaplane carrier ought to be "easier" to design. On the other hand, seaplanes take up more space than wheeled planes. Hmmmm.....
Watch this space I guess.
For the carrier, I think it's a good argument for altering the formula.
In this case the BC of 0.457 means the beam is only at max for a very short time, making the L*B/70 calc silly.
1) looking at the waterline area rather than the L*B.
2) Assigning a fixed misc. weight for each 10m of flight deck & for elevators.
Those two factors would greatly alter the apparent utility of small carriers.
3) Alternately, it might be interesting to make the calc L*B*BC/70.
In this case #3 would reduce the airgroup allowed to 13.
The second hanger merely allows you to field more than 70% of your capacity, not expand it above (which you are not- 29 is what the L*B/70 calcs to), and seems properly built with a hurricane bow. Does seem to follow the Ship Design Guidelines.
Not to keen on the AA. It seems that the gunners back then expected far greater hit %s than we now do, and realize that size of air groups would be small. A dozen lumbering biplane torpedo planes doesn't take 16x40mm per side. As for fleet def, the 40mm has short range and doesn't help. I kinda hate to suggest it, but for the role intended, replacing some of the 40mm quads with single 105mms may make sense. Say 4 quads, 1 for each quarter of the compass at ship ends, and 12 x 105mm along the broadside. ? Still silly heavy.
As for the points Carthaginian is making... many are valid. For one thing that double hanger on a small hull and shallow draft makes for a great deal of "sail" area.
Looking at the BBs and ACs posted a bit ago, I think the deck armor is verging on the thin.
Right now, it's just adequate for the 18,000yard FC in service.
I don't know if anyone has the 24,000yard FC yet, but it will be entering service soon and the concept that this is a valid range band would be known to designers forecasting what their designs must face. .
Armor penetration for the OTL US 6"/53 was expected to exceed 38mm past 20,800yrds,
While penetration through a 3" deck rather depends on the caliber and shell era you wish to proof against, 4" would be safer.
The exception is the Maximum battleship...which has an inch too much deck armor I think. 7" places you as safe well past 30,000 yards, which optically is unlikely as a range.
Well, the L*B/70 thing also captures the fact that in mature carriers, the flight deck was approximately the same width over the entire length of the ship. Generally speaking, this was roughly true of the hangar deck as well. So I'm not sure that figuring in BC is necessarily the best idea.
What needs doing is simming small carriers, and seeing how bad our deviation for the realistic is. Anyone feel like taking on that project? I know I'm not going to have time until my kids go to college (an exaggeration, but probably not a gross exaggeration)
I can probably manage to get some work done on it using web sources.
Let me see what I come up with in the next few days.
Ok, if you get stuck on some values, I can look some stuff up in Freidman for you, just let me know. The biggest thing is BC, which I transcribed into a post here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=727.msg44539#msg44539
Quote from: Guinness on July 15, 2010, 03:31:55 PM
Ok, if you get stuck on some values, I can look some stuff up in Freidman for you, just let me know. The biggest thing is BC, which I transcribed into a post here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=727.msg44539#msg44539
It's not the most reliable place, but this site gives BC's for most ships on it.
It's been a big help to me all the way back to my start here.
http://navalhistory.flixco.info/H/bx53056/1668/r0.htm
test ship, generic amall aircraft carrier laid down 1920
Displacement:
18,888 t light; 19,328 t standard; 22,011 t normal; 24,158 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
600.44 ft / 600.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
183.01 m / 182.88 m x 24.38 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
Weight of broadside 8 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 4.13" / 105 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 117,573 shp / 87,710 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,829 tons
Complement:
903 - 1,174
Cost:
£2.925 million / $11.699 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 2,812 tons, 12.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 2,792 tons, 12.7 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 4,111 tons, 18.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,264 tons, 37.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,124 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,700 tons, 16.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
43,841 lbs / 19,886 Kg = 91,957.9 x 1.0 " / 25 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.00
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 17.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.642
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 0.94 ft / 0.29 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 47.15 ft / 14.37 m (44.15 ft / 13.46 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 47.15 ft / 14.37 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 47.15 ft / 14.37 m
- Stern: 47.15 ft / 14.37 m
- Average freeboard: 43.00 ft / 13.11 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 357.7 %
Waterplane Area: 36,502 Square feet or 3,391 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 149 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 105 lbs/sq ft or 513 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.79
- Longitudinal: 7.88
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Miscellaneous weights: 3,700 tons,
600 X 80=4800/100 =48 X 80% = 38.4 aircraft
Is that too many aircraft?
Yes...
Quote from: Carthaginian on July 15, 2010, 03:38:03 PM
Quote from: Guinness on July 15, 2010, 03:31:55 PM
Ok, if you get stuck on some values, I can look some stuff up in Freidman for you, just let me know. The biggest thing is BC, which I transcribed into a post here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=727.msg44539#msg44539
It's not the most reliable place, but this site gives BC's for most ships on it.
It's been a big help to me all the way back to my start here.
http://navalhistory.flixco.info/H/bx53056/1668/r0.htm
Looking at some historic carriers over at Haze Grey & underway, there are some issues with conversions.
First, the Americans used deck parks, so their max is higher.
Second, several of the early British CVs have 20 plane groups...and that appears the design goal, not the limit. Interestingly Hermes is noted as being built on the same basis as a light cruiser, and having handling issues- which is likely the case in this 4,000ton CVMidget.
Third, looking at IJN carriers, you get two numbers for airgroup. As I recall the latter is their practice of carrying disassembled spares...and I don't know how the USN accounts for that, I just know CV-6 did have some planes carried like that but not if they were counted against the airgroup numbers. Here I went with assembled.
Fourth, as planes got larger, airgroup sizes should drop. Sometimes you see that note in regards to the Lexingtons, that their airgroup sized declined.
However, there is a trend...and it's not towards 100% of L*B/70.
Nor is it towards * BC
l b ag max % of max
lexington 270.6 32.0 90 124 73%
ranger 234.4 33.4 86 112 77%
yorktown 253.0 32.3 100 117 86%
wasp 226.0 24.6 84 79 106%
essex 265.8 45.0 100 171 59%
furious 223.0 27.5 36 88 41%
courageous 239.7 26.6 48 91 53%
Ark royal 208.8 28.8 60 86 70%
Akagi 249.0 30.0 60 107 56%
Akagi_rec 250.4 31.3 72 112 64%
kaga 230.0 29.5 60 97 62%
Kaga_rec 247.6 32.5 81 115 70%
Soryu 227.5 26.0 63 85 75%
hiryu 227.4 27.0 64 88 73%
Shokaku 257.5 29.0 72 107 67%
Ryujo 175.4 20.7 37 52 71%
Your discussion is nice and all but it's cluttering up this thread.
I wish to ask one of the mods to move all these posts to a separate thread.
Normally I'm all for splitting threads, but in this case yourship resulted directly in the conversation, but I'll compromise and start a new thread for a place to continue this.
See: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4618.msg62510#msg62510
Setting aside concerns about the carrier's overall size - you've not allowed adequate height for the hangers. You're going to need something like 14-16 feet to stow a torpedo-bomber. You've only got ten feet now.
Also, the freeboard break implies that the upper hanger only covers the forward 50% of the ship, which would have implications for total aircraft stowage.
??? The thread says that is how you simulate a hurricane bow.
Also noted for the height of the torpedo-bomber, I mistakenly assumed ten feet would be enough.
EDIT: Also, the BC of 0.457 is basically a copy of the BC on the USS Ranger.
Quote from: Logi on July 15, 2010, 07:19:36 PM
??? The thread says that is how you simulate a hurricane bow.
Why would you want to do that? They didn't get used IRL until 1927. We have NO experience w/ CVs to indicate that a hurricane bow, which adds topweight and overall weight, does anything for performance yet.
We don't see the point of having a gaping hole in the front where seawater might wash in.
Not to mention we already have more than enough AA on the ship already, so that open space really isn't needed.
The 15% forecastle would be your hurricane bow, then (as currently simmed) 35% for the upper hanger, then a hull break to the roof of the lower hanger. At least, that's how I interpret it.
There, now a flying-off-deck carrier.
Maximum space would be ~46 planes, at 70% capacity, the ship can carry 32 planes, thereby negating the need for a second hangar.
AA armament is reduced to 8 40mm Pom-poms per side (two quads).
Anti-ship armament is boosted to 8 105mm guns per side. The weapons will greatly aid in stopping destroyers attacks on the taskforce.
It is about twice the size of the original seaplane tender (which was designed to fit in a type 1 Dock, this one fits in a type 2 dock).
The B/C used is that of Yorktown.
Deck is armored (3") to make sure the flight deck is operational and will not break down (and thus be in need for are repairs of a long time) if hit by a stray shell.
QuoteYichang, RRC Carrier Escort laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,249 t standard; 9,023 t normal; 9,642 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 63.00 ft x 17.00 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 170.00 m x 19.20 m x 5.18 m
Armament:
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.05lbs / 0.93kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 598 lbs / 271 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
One Lightweight Hangar
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 36,790 shp / 27,445 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,392 tons
Complement:
462 - 601
Cost:
£1.264 million / $5.055 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 75 tons, 0.8 %
Armour: 1,833 tons, 20.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,779 tons, 19.7 %
- Conning Tower: 37 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,371 tons, 15.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,446 tons, 38.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,023 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,276 tons, 14.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,215 lbs / 5,541 Kg = 345.8 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.529
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (11.00 ft / 3.35 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 12.50 ft / 3.81 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.0 %
Waterplane Area: 24,039 Square feet or 2,233 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 140 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 519 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.37
- Longitudinal: 0.90
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Hurricane Bow
Misc Weight (1276 tons)
1024 tons - 32 Aircrafts (4 scouts, 28 torpedo-bombers)
100 tons - Fire Control System/Director (for Anti-Ship/AAW operation)
25 tons - Long Range Wireless
25 tons - Radar
102 tons - 102 21" tons
Quote from: Logi on July 15, 2010, 07:27:46 PM
We don't see the point of having a gaping hole in the front where seawater might wash in.
Not to mention we already have more than enough AA on the ship already, so that open space really isn't needed.
Fair enough, but no one else ever thought the 'gaping hole' was an issue until one got stuck in a hurricane. Remember, even with your previous success on land w/ planes, and the recent 'success' at sea, most rational people are still going to see them as toys, and wasting valuable tonnage on a special ship just for toys is probably not going to be a 'popular' idea in a lot of circles (black shoes anyone?). So making them as cost effective as possible is the best way to win support until they're proven, unequivocally to be effective. That's why almost all 1st try carriers/sea plane tenders were converted merchant ships with minimum of structure added. That's why they had the open bow. Just supports and a wooden deck forward usually.
Actually I knew such would be unpopular that's why I attempted it as small as possible, the 4000 tons Yichang being the result of that.
I would have used a converted merchant ship but the problem is as follows: Merchants ships are not capable of speeds of 26 kts. That is requires for operating with the task force.
However perhaps we can built the ship to mercantile standard (rather than convert it). That would be nice and cheap.
Merchant Standard Version, the extra weight had to go somewhere so it went to increasing the number of planes carried.
It now carries the full 46 planes possible and has two hangars.
QuoteYichang, RRC Carrier Escort laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,266 t standard; 9,842 t normal; 11,103 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 63.00 ft x 18.00 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 170.00 m x 19.20 m x 5.49 m
Armament:
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.05lbs / 0.93kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 598 lbs / 271 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning tower: 3.70" / 94 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 38,959 shp / 29,064 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 16,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,837 tons
Complement:
493 - 642
Cost:
£1.291 million / $5.162 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 75 tons, 0.8 %
Armour: 53 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 37 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,452 tons, 14.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,986 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,842 tons, 18.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,434 tons, 24.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,378 lbs / 8,336 Kg = 520.3 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.545
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 33
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 43.00 ft / 13.11 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 43.00 ft / 13.11 m (27.00 ft / 8.23 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Stern: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Average freeboard: 29.40 ft / 8.96 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 254.5 %
Waterplane Area: 24,399 Square feet or 2,267 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 164 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 84 lbs/sq ft or 409 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 3.82
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Two Lightweight Hangars
Hurricane Bow
Misc Weight (2434 tons)
2116 tons - 46 Aircraft
100 tons - Fire Control System/Director (for directing Anti-ship and AAW)
25 tons - Long Range Wireless
25 tons - Radar
168 tons - 168 Aerial 21" Torpedoes
Analysis: not possible in 1920.
Reason:
USS Langley
General characteristics
Displacement: 19,360 long tons (19,670 t) (as Jupiter)
11,500 long tons (11,700 t) (as Langley)
13,000 tons (normal as Langley)
Length: 542.3 ft (165.3 m)
Beam: 65.3 ft (19.9 m)
Draft: 27 ft 8 in (8.43 m) (as Jupiter)
18 ft 11 in (5.77 m) (as Langley)
Installed power: 6,500 shp (4,800 kW)
Propulsion: General Electric turbo-electric drive
3 × boilers
2 × shafts
Speed: 15.5 kn (17.8 mph; 28.7 km/h)
Complement: 163 officers and men (as Jupiter)
468 officers and men (as Langley)
Armament: 4 × 4 in (100 mm)/50 cal guns (as Jupiter)
4 × 5 in (130 mm)/51 cal guns (as Langley)
Armor: None
Aircraft carried: None (as Jupiter)
34 (as Langley)
HIJMS Ryujo.
Class and type: Ry?j? class light aircraft carrier
Displacement: 10,600 tons (standard)
13,650 tons (loaded)
Length: 179.9 m (590.3 ft)
Beam: 20.8 m (68.2 ft)
Draught: 7.1 m (23.3 ft)
Propulsion: Steam turbines,
6 boilers, 2 shafts,
48.5 MW (65,000 hp)
Speed: 54 km/h (29 knots)
Range: 19,000 km at 26 km/h
(10,000 nmi at 14 kts)
Complement: 924
Armament: 8 × 127 mm (5 in) guns,
4 × 25 mm anti-aircraft guns,
24 × 13 mm machine guns
Aircraft carried: 48 (operational maximum 37)
My own test carrier was modeled blind on a Ryujo type design.
40 planes on < 10,000 tons is ridiculous especially with that many heavy guns. I wouldn't even consider 35 possible.
Analysis, you need to read the previous posts.
The USS Langley was a conversion, conversations are very inefficient and thus carry less planes.
EDIT: Actually Langely fits into the given rule set as conversions need 1.5 times the mic weight to carry the same amount of aircraft as a true aircraft carrier. That means it carries 66% of the planes it would if it was build as a aircraft carrier in the first place.
As a result, if the Langley were not a conversion it would be able to carry 51 planes.
Also Ryujo goes at 29 knots, that's a lot more machinery space and weight that the Yichang does not need.
Quote from: Logi on July 15, 2010, 08:30:41 PM
Analysis, you need to read the previous posts.
The USS Langley was a conversion, conversations are very inefficient and thus carry less planes.
I did and noted the comments you made as invalid as your own "merchant conversion of 40 planes" was technically not possible. As for Ryujo, it was not a conversion. So two benchmarks for the two test cases.
Your 8000 ton light carriers cannot have 40 planes. We have to make some kind of sense here, don't we?
D.
The Ryujo also goes at 29 knots.
If the Yichang were to go at 29 knots, that would result in 784 tons more machinery weight. Most certainly at 29 knots, a Yichang-sized aircraft carrier can not hope to carry such a large hangar. But it goes at a slow 26kts speed.
You would also note that my Yichang has the same number of mounts for it's weapon as tyhe Ryujo and far fewer AA weapon mounts.
I have 8 mounts of 105mm guns (which are not 5" guns) and they are dual. That is why I can fit them on.
I have 4 mounts of 40mm quads, compared to Ryujo's 28 mounts.
Do I even need to metnion that under that rule set, the Ryujo requires 188 tons more for it's aircraft complement and not even counting the additional reloads need?
That means a total of 972 tons of just machinery and aircraft that the Ryujo carries over the Yichang.
Also I should note that the Ryujo, as designed, displaced only 8,000 tons as well. The inability of the Ryujo to weather heavy storms required the addition of weight. The instabilty of the ship was caused by the addtional of a second hangar into the ship halfway through construction, a detail that was not included in the original build plan for the Ryujo, which prompted it's instability.
This instability requires more weight to offset.
Hence, a purpose-designed ship with two hangars from the start would not encounter stability issues as heavily as the Ryujo and there is no need to add the additional 2k tons.
EDIT: I never said Merchant Conversion. I said built to Merchant Standard. Those are two entirely different things.
One is a conversion which leads to inefficiency in hull form and design.
The other is a perfectly well designed ship with cheap materials.
Hosho might be a better comparison choice...
I don't know if 26 knots is exactly 'merchant standard.'
Surely a carrier like this would fall more under the 'Tender Rule Clause' intended to prevent 'cheap warships.'
Seriously, the Mods need to rule on this issue before someone starts laying down the keel on a 20,000t fleet carrier built to MS.
Of course the speed can be lowered by then the question is... What do do with the extra weight.
Of course I am willing to have the Engine be military standard and the rest of the ship be mercantile standard and pay for the Engine separately.
In effect it would be a carrier with basically pretty much wood and whatnot, the most expensive part being the engine.
Also, please do not forget that ship class would most likely consist of only two ships. There are experimental aircraft carriers for the purpose of convincing conservative minds about the use of an aircraft carrier whilst keeping the cost low.
IMNSHO, all aircraft-related equipment should be classified as armament, so a 4000t merchant standard ship should be able to have about 80t worth of aviation equipment, which (by the rules) allows about three aircrafts.
Originally the main purpose of the "merchant standard" was to allow the simming of transports/liners with high misc. weights.
I don't see how to simulate the extremely cheap building and materials of the experiment carriers IRL then.
I do plan to pay for the aircrafts separately, FYI.
Quote from: Carthaginian on July 15, 2010, 08:48:15 PM
I don't know if 26 knots is exactly 'merchant standard.'
Surely a carrier like this would fall more under the 'Tender Rule Clause' intended to prevent 'cheap warships.'
Seriously, the Mods need to rule on this issue before someone starts laying down the keel on a 20,000t fleet carrier built to MS.
I have to agree with that. The US President Class ocean liners and C-class fleet oilers were designed as "tenders" to either transport, fleet oiler or slow fleet aircraft carrier standards.
The same is true for the 1930s Japanese "ocean liners" that became two of their 25-26 knot mainstay (Hiyo class) fleet carriers after the Midway Massacre. The other four started life as
seaplane tenders. The Umryos that supplemented those were true warships built as simplified Hiryus
Something like the Sangamon
was not a Long Island.
So tender rules required here? I have to agree with that.
Ah right, I re-read the tender rules and do agree this would fall under it.
A notation on speed...you probably still will want it to be sure that even on a windless day you can get your planes in the air by steaming at flank speed.
Though biplanes can get more lift out of those surfaces, they still need a certain amount of speed to get lift, otherwise they get to kiss the sea...followed shortly by the bow of the carrier.
Quote from: Ithekro on July 16, 2010, 11:17:09 AM
otherwise they get to kiss the sea...followed shortly by the bow of the carrier.
You skipped the part where after the plane kisses the sea the pilot kisses his ass goodbye, then the plane kisses the bow of the carrier.
Quote from: Ithekro on July 16, 2010, 11:17:09 AM
A notation on speed...you probably still will want it to be sure that even on a windless day you can get your planes in the air by steaming at flank speed.
Though biplanes can get more lift out of those surfaces, they still need a certain amount of speed to get lift, otherwise they get to kiss the sea...followed shortly by the bow of the carrier.
Maybe at least 20 knots? I know the Langley was straining to get 15 knots on her best days and that the Jennys had a devil of a time getting aloft.
A converted collier was not the best idea for a test carrier.
??? What are you guys talking about? All my designs for the carrier went 26 kts.
I have a big issue with these carrier designs,namely that they can be build using Merchant Standard.Carriers are warships,laid down and constructed as such.I view the use of Merchant Standard as an attempt to undermine/circumvent the rules.
I can accept Merchant Standard when it comes to AMCs or "Q"ships.
QuoteI have a big issue with these carrier designs,namely that they can be build using Merchant Standard.Carriers are warships,laid down and constructed as such.I view the use of Merchant Standard as an attempt to undermine/circumvent the rules.
You're forgetting one important thing in the ship building rules that covers this:
QuoteModerators have may require a ship to be built to normal military standards if they believe that the intent of a design is to produce a cheap warship.
So in case of a carrier, it would almost certainly mean full cost for the ship.
Quote from: ledeper on July 16, 2010, 02:31:40 PM
I have a big issue with these carrier designs,namely that they can be build using Merchant Standard.Carriers are warships,laid down and constructed as such.I view the use of Merchant Standard as an attempt to undermine/circumvent the rules.
I can accept Merchant Standard when it comes to AMCs or "Q"ships.
Actually quite a few RL carriers were either converted merchants or ships that were laid down to merchant standard and reordered while under construction to be CVs. Look at all the CVEs.
Quote from: Sachmle on July 16, 2010, 03:04:00 PM
Quote from: ledeper on July 16, 2010, 02:31:40 PM
I have a big issue with these carrier designs,namely that they can be build using Merchant Standard.Carriers are warships,laid down and constructed as such.I view the use of Merchant Standard as an attempt to undermine/circumvent the rules.
I can accept Merchant Standard when it comes to AMCs or "Q"ships.
Actually quite a few RL carriers were either converted merchants or ships that were laid down to merchant standard and reordered while under construction to be CVs. Look at all the CVEs.
Most of the CVE conversions were the so called "Kaiser Koffins" that were very expensive conversions, many that used military standard catapults, arrestor systems, and elevators mounted in an expensive flight deck that topped a standard merchant hull.
(http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot-restricted/ships/carriers-us/uss_cve_20_barnes_bogue_class-07818.jpg)
As an exercise in "cheapness", they were quick to make but not very "cheap".
Quote from: damocles on July 16, 2010, 04:23:12 PM
As an exercise in "cheapness", they were quick to make but not very "cheap".
LOL... put the unit cost against even an
Independence class and you'll see that they were, indeed, VERY cheap to build.
'Cheap' is a relative term when it comes to warships.
The rules may not explicitly state it, but an aircraft carrier is a warship, not a tender and certainly not a civvie-standard boat.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on July 16, 2010, 05:53:25 PM
The rules may not explicitly state it, but an aircraft carrier is a warship, not a tender and certainly not a civvie-standard boat.
A purpose built CV I agree completely, but since there are only, what, 2-3 TEST/EXPERIMENTAL CVs in Nverse I have a VERY hard time swallowing ANYONE building a purpose built CV at this time. As to 'merchant' hulls, why not build experimental CVs and seaplane tenders on the hulls of existing tankers/colliers/liners? This would be more period acceptable, and IMO realistic. Jumping from NO CVs to purpose built w/o an experimental of your own, or at least before anyone who does builds their own purpose built CV is, well simply ridiculous.
What tankers? What colliers? What liners?
I only have one tanker, and it is serving a very important duty.
I only have one collier and I can't afford to throw it away.
I only have one liner and it was newly constructed and 20,000 tons. Newly constructed conversions are really a waste, IMO.
As it stands, pretty much the RRC lacks anything to convert the ship from, without dipping in the merchant marine. Thus building the Carrier from kneel up, merchant standard, is the most feasible option.
My interpretation of an experimental carrier is a Langley, Hosho, or Argus. Slow, unprotected, small, few aircraft. If somebody wants to propose a conversion on those lines, I'd be prepared to compromise. Maybe we consider it as a rule for "Escort carriers".
But if we toss fleet speed, large airgroups, and armor into the equation, we're into a purpose-built carriers, and I would not discount the cost any.
I agree with Logi- after a fashion... the ship is NOT NEW CONSTRUCTION, it's merely 'undergoing an extensive conversion during construction.' This way he: 1) makes all the necessary storyline compromises, 2.) has a ship of limited capabilities and 3.) doesn't have to sacrifice any existing ships. Extra points if it uses the SS for an existing merchant ship.
Basically, he's building the ship as a merchant ship, and deciding to convert it while building.
Everyone is happy... as long as it remains a 'converted merchant' and doesn't turn into a covert fleet carrier.
There's nothing in the RRC fleet goes at 18 kts. The slowest ship goes 26 kts.
Having an experimental carrier of 18 kts would be beyond stupid. (I mean for non-conversions) It would simply be purpose-built experiment torpedo bait.
The ship is unprotected save the deck armor, which could be removed for more miscellaneous weight for other purposes.
The ship is small, it's at 8000 tons. Unless you want the 4000 ton version.
----
I could see that Carth. I'll come up with a merchant ship SS doc first, then a conversion doc.
Quote from: Sachmle on July 16, 2010, 06:07:37 PM
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on July 16, 2010, 05:53:25 PM
The rules may not explicitly state it, but an aircraft carrier is a warship, not a tender and certainly not a civvie-standard boat.
A purpose built CV I agree completely, but since there are only, what, 2-3 TEST/EXPERIMENTAL CVs in Nverse I have a VERY hard time swallowing ANYONE building a purpose built CV at this time. As to 'merchant' hulls, why not build experimental CVs and seaplane tenders on the hulls of existing tankers/colliers/liners? This would be more period acceptable, and IMO realistic. Jumping from NO CVs to purpose built w/o an experimental of your own, or at least before anyone who does builds their own purpose built CV is, well simply ridiculous.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=5127.msg62609#msg62609
The point with that "tender" is that it is built as an experiment and that it is the test bed. I would have to build it as a tender first, before I ever built the 26,000 ton job. The reason I would call them tenders is because they "tend" air wings.
They have to conform to tender rules because they have to have separate fuel and ammo for their aircraft and that I can only sim as misc. weight that counts toward warship costs!
Quote from: Logi on July 16, 2010, 06:17:47 PM
What tankers? What colliers? What liners?
I only have one tanker, and it is serving a very important duty.
I only have one collier and I can't afford to throw it away.
I only have one liner and it was newly constructed and 20,000 tons. Newly constructed conversions are really a waste, IMO.
As it stands, pretty much the RRC lacks anything to convert the ship from, without dipping in the merchant marine. Thus building the Carrier from kneel up, merchant standard, is the most feasible option.
Says who? I presume RRC has a merchant marine of it's own too. How does RRC mined coal that isn't used domestically get to the nation that buys it? You have 1 gov't subsidized liner, but what of purely civilian ones? It's STORYLINE...RRC gov't buys Liner SS Wang Chung from Hong Kong-Americas Line for $X and then you convert it. You make an SS for the Civilian Liner that was built in 1908, whatever...then alter the SS to the "Conversion" stats. Figure the cost for conversion the same way you figure costs for reconstructions, pay whatever it is, have experimental carrier on Liner hull.
Quote from: Logi on July 16, 2010, 06:32:12 PM
There's nothing in the RRC fleet goes at 18 kts. The slowest ship goes 26 kts.
Having an experimental carrier of 18 kts would be beyond stupid. (I mean for non-conversions) It would simply be purpose-built experiment torpedo bait.
The ship is unprotected save the deck armor, which could be removed for more miscellaneous weight for other purposes.
The ship is small, it's at 8000 tons. Unless you want the 4000 ton version.
----
I could see that Carth. I'll come up with a merchant ship SS doc first, then a conversion doc.
An early carrier WAS NOT A FLEET UNIT!
They were just 'eyes and ears' that tagged along while the fleet cruised. They weren't meant to go anywhere near the battle that the battleships and cruisers would be participating in. The early 'fast carriers' weren't actually 'fleet carriers,' they were battlecruisers with a carrier deck. That was the reason they had ridiculous top speeds.
Ranger was almost 5 knots slower than the nearly 35 knot
Lexington.
Argus and
Hermes were both real barn burners- making 21 and 25 knots, respectively. Compare this to the American carriers, or to
Furious which made 30 knots.
Hosho might have been a dragon, but she pranced at a stately 25 knots compared to her contemporaries in the IJN; the
Akagi made 32 knots.
If you're going to build a merchant conversion, it seems that 20-ish knots is a good upper limit.
A (true) cruiser-hull conversion might make in the mid-to-upper 20's.
A battlecruier conversion (not a first step for anyone unless they wait for a few years till the grunt work is done) might break 30 knots, if the ship is converted early enough.
These seem to be pretty iron-clad limits if you look at historic carriers.
QuoteThe point with that "tender" is that it is built as an experiment and that it is the test bed. I would have to build it as a tender first, before I ever built the 26,000 ton job. The reason I would call them tenders is because they "tend" air wings.
By that logic, I could build an aircraft carrier to our Destroyer rules (0.5 HS) because she's going to "destroy" stuff.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on July 16, 2010, 07:12:27 PM
QuoteThe point with that "tender" is that it is built as an experiment and that it is the test bed. I would have to build it as a tender first, before I ever built the 26,000 ton job. The reason I would call them tenders is because they "tend" air wings.
By that logic, I could build an aircraft carrier to our Destroyer rules (0.5 HS) because she's going to "destroy" stuff.
Well, maybe a couple of the Jap baby flattops... ;)
QuoteAn early carrier WAS NOT A FLEET UNIT!
They were just 'eyes and ears' that tagged along while the fleet cruised. They weren't meant to go anywhere near the battle that the battleships and cruisers would be participating in.
The RRC has a fleet to cruise somewhere? Seriously? It's a brownwater navy and you expect it to cruise much of anywhere. Point is everything that moves, teven the slowest is over 26 kts. And considering the operating radius of RRC ships and the bunker they have you can pretty much expect them to operate at either full speed or 70% speed.
I said 26 kts, thats 1 kt over the Hosho, Argue, and Hermes. That's also 4 kts under the Ranger. It it a ridiculously super fast ship? No.
Also if the carrier just tagged along, it would quickly become torpedo bait. The situation in the Pacific is not at all like RL, in the Chinese Pacific, it is torpedo ship, torpedo ship. There are few to no capital ships.
It is more likely a swarmed and sunk when it is alone then in a taskforce in which the ships can lay covering fire for each other. In other words, it is safer, in fact, to operate besides the heavy cruisers and light cruisers than to leave it when it engages in a battle.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on July 16, 2010, 07:12:27 PM
QuoteThe point with that "tender" is that it is built as an experiment and that it is the test bed. I would have to build it as a tender first, before I ever built the 26,000 ton job. The reason I would call them tenders is because they "tend" air wings.
By that logic, I could build an aircraft carrier to our Destroyer rules (0.5 HS) because she's going to "destroy" stuff.
An aircraft carrier does not directly engage. It fights or observes with its aircraft. The ship is a landing deck and maintenance unit for the aircraft it carries. Hence, it actually "tends" aircraft the same way a destroyer tender "tends" destroyers I think. It is a floating airbase and aircraft repair facility.
And since it does I apply the tender rules to it to describe it using miscellaneous weights to describe aviation ammo and oil storage separate from the ship's fuel and ammo.
Its an approach that I think fits?
Quote from: Logi on July 16, 2010, 07:50:04 PM
I said 26 kts, thats 1 kt over the Hosho, Argue, and Hermes. That's also 4 kts under the Ranger. It it a ridiculously super fast ship? No.
These were cruiser-based carriers. (Don't know what the 'Argue' is).
They would be FULL WARSHIP construction... a cruiser hull built to full warship standards.
If a carrier like these were built to warship standards, I'd have no problem with it.
But to be built to merchant standards, it's to handle like a merchant vessel.
A tender doesn't cost a quarter of the BP cost of a similar sized warship because it uses only a quarter of the steel.
It's a rule, like the merchie standards, intended to encourage folks to build up the fleet train and coast guard functons of their fleet.
We do not need a rule making aircraft carriers cheaper so that people will build more of them. They can pay the full cost of a warship.
Quote(Don't know what the 'Argue' is)
Sorry I meant to type Argus. Skipped the S for an E, it seems.
I intend to come up with a merchant design.
Quote from: Logi on July 16, 2010, 08:02:22 PM
Quote(Don't know what the 'Argue' is)
Sorry I meant to type Argus. Skipped the S for an E, it seems.
I intend to come up with a merchant design.
Seems that Rock has ruled.
How would conversions work then, cause I was thinking a conversion.
Conversion as it an existing merchant ship taken and converted into an aircraft carrier.
I'd be thinking that you sim a merchantman that is suitable for conversion (to the degree that any merchantman is suitable in 1919 for carrier ops). Pay for it at merchant costs to reflect that you're buying it from some private owner. Then pay for the refurbishment at full military costs. That'd be my thinking.
That or convert an old warship (the Americans were looking into converting old Armored Cruisers and I think Predreadnaughts into small carriers at one point until the Treaties (and real world experiance with Lexington) changed that ideology to Fleet Carriers mainly).
Problem is, Ithekro, there aren't many old warships. The few we have are precious.
Tactical question....why does this China need an aircraft carrier?
I wouldn't imagine the fleet operating very far from home. They should be within range of land based aircraft. I don't image them going on offensive operations beyond Chinese waters where aircraft will be useful in this age.
As a scouting unit (yes that is the purpose of a carrier in 1920), you could just attack float planes to warships, or operate a seaplane tender or flying boats that have a much better range than most carrier based aircraft of the age.
Just curious what the idea is behind having a carrier in this fleet.
Torpedoing the torpedo boats. That is the main purpose. China is very vast. So is the coastline. It does not have air bases all along the coast. It can not deal with such.
A carrier is basically be a forward air base. Torpedoing boats have been proven possible and given the minimal resistance that should be offered by Tbs and their massive swarms, scoring a single hit will sinka TB. One less TB is one less threat.
I do not have the tech required for warships to have aircraft.
In the mean time I was a bit bored and produced this:
QuoteYichang, RRC Commerce Raider / Battlecruiser laid down 1920
Displacement:
15,000 t light; 15,555 t standard; 16,528 t normal; 17,306 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
610.00 ft / 610.00 ft x 78.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
185.93 m / 185.93 m x 23.77 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.05lbs / 0.93kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 4,026 lbs / 1,826 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 320.00 ft / 97.54 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,418 shp / 59,246 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,751 tons
Complement:
728 - 947
Cost:
£3.159 million / $12.636 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 503 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 5,451 tons, 33.0 %
- Belts: 2,733 tons, 16.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 892 tons, 5.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,770 tons, 10.7 %
- Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,777 tons, 16.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,952 tons, 36.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,528 tons, 9.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 317 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,412 lbs / 9,259 Kg = 30.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.82 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 16.77 ft / 5.11 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.7 %
Waterplane Area: 31,893 Square feet or 2,963 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 642 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.20
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
I think I'd want an anti-TB battery on that, but in all other respects, she'd be quite a pain in the ass for enemy blue water forces.
A sizeable Anti-TB Secondary Battery added for 1000tons (which also afforded the belt thickness increase to 13".
QuoteYichang, RRC Commerce Raider / Battlecruiser laid down 1920
Displacement:
16,000 t light; 16,616 t standard; 17,629 t normal; 18,439 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
610.00 ft / 610.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
185.93 m / 185.93 m x 24.38 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,590 lbs / 2,082 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 322.00 ft / 98.15 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 83,768 shp / 62,491 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,823 tons
Complement:
764 - 994
Cost:
£3.432 million / $13.729 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 574 tons, 3.3 %
Armour: 5,854 tons, 33.2 %
- Belts: 2,989 tons, 17.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 957 tons, 5.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,850 tons, 10.5 %
- Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,929 tons, 16.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,331 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,629 tons, 9.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,834 lbs / 9,904 Kg = 32.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.527
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.45 ft / 5.32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.2 %
Waterplane Area: 33,328 Square feet or 3,096 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 658 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Whatcha planin' on shootin' with that thing? If the name's right, I presume merchants. That makes the 11" overkill. By the armor, it looks like BBs and BCs, but for that 11" isn't enough. She's neither fish nor fowl IMO. Waste of tonnage for commerce warfare and not strong enough to fight Capital ships. She's be good vs a CA or an older BC, but there are cheaper ways to smite them. She's an overarmored Panzerschiffe.
She's like the OTL 30's S & G... not able to fight a capital ship, but taking up the same amount of tonnage as a capital ship.
Killing merchants is the job of a traditional cruiser.
You either need to go 12"-13"/L45 guns to be able to hold your own against real BC's (and only older ones at that) or you meed to drop the caliber, size and cost of the ship to something more affordable. A 6"-8" cruiser would be just as effective against merchants, but you could field two or three on this displacement.
Torpedoing a TB sound rather difficult compared to just shooting it out of the water. So a Chinese carrier is more fleet defense and forward airbase than the traditional fleet scout that basically just extends the range of the fleet's floatplanes, Flying boats, land based aircraft and airships. It has the unusual roll of proactive torpedo boat screening vessel for the Navy.
Find a period torpedo plane and see how many you can fit inside the hanger of the carrier should do the trick. I had a few carriers designed for Wesworld and they didn't quite fit the standard calculation for numbers of planes in the hanger (it was close), and that was with mostly folding wings around 1930.
Will China have 1920 engines by then? According to your tech list china only has 1916 engines and is not even developing the next generation.
QuoteTorpedoing a TB sound rather difficult compared to just shooting it out of the water. So a Chinese carrier is more fleet defense and forward airbase than the traditional fleet scout that basically just extends the range of the fleet's floatplanes, Flying boats, land based aircraft and airships. It has the unusual roll of proactive torpedo boat screening vessel for the Navy.
The planes have a large range than the guns on my ship. That said, I also do not have many large ships hence, any fight against a TB via gun will be too close to torpedo range to be of comfort. It is better to try to take care of the TBs before they close in.
And yes, you mostly have the role of the Carrier in the Chinese navy right.
QuoteWill China have 1920 engines by then? According to your tech list china only has 1916 engines and is not even developing the next generation.
Probably in 1921, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't change much in the design.
11"/45 are the only feasible option, the 12"/40s are too old for duty. The 11"/45 are on the other hand, modern guns. Don't get me start about how the 13"/35 have no range at all and have no turret to go with it. The only modern gun I above 11" is the 14"and it is too heavy.
The displacement was the result of the need for a long waterline length to achieve the max speed with the required stability ratings, though I can try without.
But the armor does allow it to stand up to any BC without backing down, even BBs. 13" belt sloped 20 degrees is something to be feared.
But I think more than an effective commerce raider the design seems more inclined towards a fast battleship. Under-armed, but able to try down large forces nevertheless. Faster BCs have more speed, but not the armament or armor to compete. Having a large armament is useless against BB-style armor.
Slower BBs can not hope to catch up with the ship.
------------
All the following designs employ a 20 degrees sloped belt.
If I went for an increase in tonnage and gave it the 14" twins (that I just remembered I had!).
QuoteYichang, RRC Commerce Raider / Battlecruiser laid down 1920
Displacement:
22,000 t light; 22,892 t standard; 24,151 t normal; 25,158 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.00 ft / 720.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
219.46 m / 219.46 m x 24.38 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,197 lbs / 3,265 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 107,621 shp / 80,285 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,266 tons
Complement:
968 - 1,259
Cost:
£4.576 million / $18.303 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 761 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 7,420 tons, 30.7 %
- Belts: 3,893 tons, 16.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,238 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 2,218 tons, 9.2 %
- Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,763 tons, 15.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,745 tons, 40.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,151 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,901 lbs / 13,563 Kg = 21.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.544
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.45 ft / 5.32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.9 %
Waterplane Area: 39,955 Square feet or 3,712 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 169 lbs/sq ft or 823 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.14
- Longitudinal: 1.16
- Overall: 1.14
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
-------------
Or if I decreased the tonnage...
QuoteYichang, RRC Commerce Raider / Battlecruiser laid down 1920
Displacement:
12,500 t light; 13,007 t standard; 13,872 t normal; 14,564 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 22.50 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 22.86 m x 6.86 m
Armament:
8 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (4x2 guns), 421.80lbs / 191.32kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,971 lbs / 1,801 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 1.20" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 74,901 shp / 55,876 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,557 tons
Complement:
638 - 830
Cost:
£2.887 million / $11.546 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 497 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 3,642 tons, 26.3 %
- Belts: 2,017 tons, 14.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 948 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 627 tons, 4.5 %
- Conning Tower: 50 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,619 tons, 18.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,468 tons, 39.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,372 tons, 9.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 275 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,862 lbs / 7,648 Kg = 40.0 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.517
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 19.52 ft / 5.95 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.3 %
Waterplane Area: 28,259 Square feet or 2,625 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 644 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.54
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
4 guns is pointless, you need at least 6, and that's BARELY enough, for Fire Control spotting.
The 24cm one has promise, but why slow it down? 29kts won't outrun the last 2 classes of Dutch (who are now cozy w/ MK and have bases close enough to you to worry about) Frigates, will barely (0.50kts) outrun the new French (who are friendly with Indochina, who you want to immolate) Croiseurs de bataille, will barely outrun (1kts) the DKB (who, despite the Dutch trying to weasel us out, are still friendly with the MK and Indochina) 11" armed Motke's (yes, we know..treaty and all, but one must prepare for the worst and hope for the best), won't outrun the (4+yrs older by completion) Swiss (10") Interceptors and barely (1kt) outruns the Swiss (14") Inflexible's. If you're going to down gun that far (20-25cm) you better speed up.
I was going for the 24cm because I thought I had it (my internet was down when I made the design) but I realized by checking I only have a 250mm and it's a L35. I guess we know what gun I'm developing next.
Probably going to revert back to the 11"/45 or downgun to the 195mm/50.
19.5/L50 isn't a bad weapon....for killing other cruisers. It's certainly not anything for a capital ship to be afraid of. However, presuming you have triple turrets (since RRC seems to like triples) a pretty tough customer for other cruisers can be had w/ 4x3x19.5. Just remember what I said about speed, cuz it will apply even more so w/ a smaller gun. DKB has been toying w/ various ships bigger than kleine (small) kreuzers, but smaller than große (large) kreuzers (i.e. Battlecruisers) and have not decided what, if any route it will take. We have designs w/ 19.4cm/L50, 21cm/L45, and 24cm/L45. The 19.4 lacks punch, the 24 weighs a lot, the 21cm seems a nice compromise, perhaps you should try something in that size range.
The RRC actually likes Quads, but the jump from 8-12 due to quads is hard to swallow.
Hmm I was thinking of going 21cm/55 Quad route. Nice firepower, range. Just nicely between the older 195mm/45 and the 240mm/35.
Here's a 21cm/55 Quad Version.
QuoteYichang, RRC Commerce Raider / Battlecruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
14,000 t light; 14,629 t standard; 15,540 t normal; 16,269 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 76.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 23.16 m x 7.01 m
Armament:
12 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (3x4 guns), 335.00lbs / 151.95kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1922 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.05lbs / 0.93kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,618 lbs / 2,095 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 345.00 ft / 105.16 m 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 94,569 shp / 70,548 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,639 tons
Complement:
695 - 904
Cost:
£3.703 million / $14.814 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 499 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 3,850 tons, 24.8 %
- Belts: 2,098 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 872 tons, 5.6 %
- Armour Deck: 826 tons, 5.3 %
- Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,208 tons, 20.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,105 tons, 39.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,540 tons, 9.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 339 tons, 2.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,985 lbs / 8,612 Kg = 67.2 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.559
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.45 ft / 6.84 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.0 %
Waterplane Area: 29,783 Square feet or 2,767 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 666 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.86
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
To upgrade the speed even 1 kt and give it an extra turret, +3kton.
QuoteYichang, RRC Commerce Raider / Heavy Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 17,715 t standard; 18,760 t normal; 19,596 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
660.00 ft / 660.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
201.17 m / 201.17 m x 24.38 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
16 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x4 guns), 335.00lbs / 151.95kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1922 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.05lbs / 0.93kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,958 lbs / 2,702 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 93 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 108,694 shp / 81,085 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,880 tons
Complement:
800 - 1,041
Cost:
£4.496 million / $17.986 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 640 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 4,659 tons, 24.8 %
- Belts: 2,405 tons, 12.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,201 tons, 6.4 %
- Armour Deck: 993 tons, 5.3 %
- Conning Tower: 61 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,687 tons, 19.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,660 tons, 40.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,760 tons, 9.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 354 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,186 lbs / 10,064 Kg = 78.5 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.518
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.45 ft / 6.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.2 %
Waterplane Area: 35,770 Square feet or 3,323 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 716 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
8" belt is pointless w/ a 1.5" deck. If you're fighting something the has big enough guns that you need an 8" belt, it will cripple you by punching through your 1.5" deck long before you close to damaging range w/ you 21cm. An 8" belt will stop 12-13" at long range, 10-11" at medium range, and 9" or smaller at most ranges. However a 1.5" deck will be defeated by 14" at 8,000yds, 13.5" at 9,000yds, 12" at 12,000yds, 11" at 13,000yds, 10" at 14,500yds, 9" at 16,000yds, and finally outside FC range, 8" at 19,600yds
Using P3D's ballistic program, I get penetration by the 21cm @ ~16,000 yds out. For the belt, penetration by the 21cm @ ~11,000 yds in.
Upgrading the deck to a 2.2" deck, with get penetration by the 21cm @ ~18,200 yds out. That is outside of FC range. However, upgrading the belt will get penetration by the 21cm @ ~9,600 yds in.
My solution is to increase the thickness of both belt and deck by 1". That extends the immunity zone against it's own guns to 8,600 yards (as opposed to the previous 5,000 yards).
Against normal weight 21cm shells, the ship now protects against @ ~9,000 yds out (belt) and @ ~21,500 yds in (deck). Thus the immunity zone against normal weight 21cm shells is 12,500 yards.
------
Again, 21cm/55 Superheavy Quad ship with 20 degrees sloped main belt for a total main belt height of 16 ft.
QuoteYichang, RRC Commerce Raider / Heavy Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 18,736 t standard; 19,814 t normal; 20,677 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
660.00 ft / 660.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
201.17 m / 201.17 m x 24.38 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
16 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x4 guns), 335.00lbs / 151.95kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1922 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.05lbs / 0.93kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,958 lbs / 2,702 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.20" / 56 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 112,696 shp / 84,071 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,941 tons
Complement:
834 - 1,085
Cost:
£4.644 million / $18.575 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 640 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 5,421 tons, 27.4 %
- Belts: 2,625 tons, 13.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,268 tons, 6.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,466 tons, 7.4 %
- Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,823 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,762 tons, 39.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,814 tons, 9.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 354 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,640 lbs / 10,723 Kg = 83.7 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.525
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.45 ft / 6.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.0 %
Waterplane Area: 36,011 Square feet or 3,346 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 715 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.29
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Using NAaB w/ the following settings
Vertical Armor: 8" German new KC 'n/A' (New Type) @ 20* w/ 12" wood and 2" High Tensile Steel WWI backing
Deck Armor: 2.2" German Krupp "High-% Nickel-steel (1894-1918)
Projectile: 8.2" 335lbs Total weight, 333lbs body weight Avg. L/3.2, L/3.4 APC (0.50-cal-KCa/A@30-deg, TNT, and delay-fuzed) (1911-1918)
2400 muzzle velocity
8 ballistic coefficient
An 8" Belt of KC n/A at 20* is impervious to a "SuperHeavy" 8.2"/L55 shell from just inside 5,000yds and out.
A 2.2" Krupp High % Nickel steel deck is impervious to a "SuperHeavy" 8.2"/L55 shell from 19,250yds and in.
Basically, you can cut you belt. IF you want an immumity zone against your own gun of ~8,500yds and closer you only need a ~6" belt.
However my original point was not that she couldn't stop her own guns, it's that she would be crashed by any number of EXPECTABLE enemies at RANGE due to her thin deck. I'd cut the belt/turret face/barbette to 6", the turret other to 3" and put the extra weight into the deck. At 2.2" she's still vulnerable to anything over 11" at FC allowable ranges. Last I checked 11" was the smallest heavy gun used by your probable enemies. Remember, no one fights fair. They're not going to send their 8" gunned CA to stop you, they'll send their 13-15" gunned BC to stop you, and at 18,000t you're in the bracket where it's not really that cost effective anymore either.
Interesting, decreasing the armor for the turrets yields this:
Using NAaB w/ the following settings:
Vertical Armor: 9" German new KC 'n/A' (New Type) @ 20* w/ 12" wood and 2" High Tensile Steel WWI backing
Deck Armor: 3" German Krupp "High-% Nickel-steel (1894-1918)
Projectile: 8.2" 335lbs Total weight, 333lbs body weight Avg. L/3.2, L/3.4 APC (0.50-cal-KCa/A@30-deg, TNT, and delay-fuzed) (1911-1918)
2400 muzzle velocity
8 ballistic coefficient
A 9" Belt of KC n/A at 20* is impervious to a "SuperHeavy" 8.2"/L55 shell. It seems at any feasible combat distance.
A 3" Krupp High % Nicket Steel Deck is impervious to a "SuperHeavy" 8.2"/L55 shell from ~22,000 yards in.
-----
Projectile: 11" Avg. L/3.2, L/3.4 APC (0.50-cal-KCa/A@30-deg, TNT, and delay-fuzed) (1911-1918)
A 9" Belt of KC n/A at 20* is impervious to an 11"/L50 shell at ~8,500 yds out.
A 3" Krupp High % Nicket Steel Deck is impervious to a 11/L50 shell in combat distances.
-----
Projectile: 13.5" (Heavy) Forged-Steel APC (3.15-3.87% Lyddite filler) (1913-18).
A 9" Belt of KC n/A at 20* is impervious to an 13.5"/L50 shell at ~15,000 yds out.
A 3" Krupp High % Nicket Steel Deck is impervious to a 11/L50 shell ~18,300 yds in.
-----
Projectile: 15" Avg. L/3.2, L/3.4 APC (0.50-cal-KCa/A@30-deg, TNT, and delay-fuzed) (1911-1918)
A 9" Belt of KC n/A at 20* is impervious to an 15"/L45 shell at ~16,300 yds out.
A 3" Krupp High % Nicket Steel Deck is impervious to a 11/L50 shell 17,570 yds in.
QuoteYichang, RRC Commerce Raider / Heavy Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 18,736 t standard; 19,814 t normal; 20,677 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
660.00 ft / 660.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
201.17 m / 201.17 m x 24.38 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
16 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x4 guns), 335.00lbs / 151.95kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1922 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.05lbs / 0.93kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,958 lbs / 2,702 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 112,696 shp / 84,071 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,941 tons
Complement:
834 - 1,085
Cost:
£4.644 million / $18.575 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 640 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 5,596 tons, 28.2 %
- Belts: 2,625 tons, 13.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 910 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,999 tons, 10.1 %
- Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,823 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,621 tons, 38.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,814 tons, 9.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 320 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,680 lbs / 10,741 Kg = 83.8 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.525
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.45 ft / 6.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.0 %
Waterplane Area: 36,011 Square feet or 3,346 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 702 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.32
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
That's a lot of armor for a cruiser...I like it. But then I liked trying to build Armored Cruisers outside Washington Treaty like restrictions in WesWorld (Battlecruiser equivalent armored cruisers with 8-10" guns and high speeds)...Or basically what Rohan would do for a Combat Cruiser.
QuoteCA22, Republic of China Cruiser Killer laid down 1922
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 20,719 t standard; 21,857 t normal; 22,767 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
198.12 m / 198.12 m x 24.38 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1922 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,168 lbs / 2,798 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 504.00 ft / 153.62 m 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 119 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 504.00 ft / 153.62 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 120,514 shp / 89,903 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,048 tons
Complement:
898 - 1,168
Cost:
£5.236 million / $20.945 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 771 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 6,564 tons, 30.0 %
- Belts: 2,445 tons, 11.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 522 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 1,561 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,968 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 67 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 4,088 tons, 18.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,263 tons, 37.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,857 tons, 8.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 314 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,774 lbs / 11,691 Kg = 38.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.525
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.13 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.6 %
Waterplane Area: 35,466 Square feet or 3,295 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 734 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.47
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Main Belt bumped up to 10". Belt is sloped 20 degrees, so belt vertical height is 12'.
QuoteCA22, Republic of China Cruiser Killer laid down 1922
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 20,720 t standard; 21,857 t normal; 22,767 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 82.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
198.12 m / 198.12 m x 24.99 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1922 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,168 lbs / 2,798 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.50" / 13 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 4.97" / 126 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 120,235 shp / 89,695 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,047 tons
Complement:
898 - 1,168
Cost:
£5.233 million / $20.931 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 771 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 6,551 tons, 30.0 %
- Belts: 2,701 tons, 12.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 259 tons, 1.2 %
- Armament: 1,530 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,994 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 67 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 4,079 tons, 18.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,288 tons, 37.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,857 tons, 8.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,603 lbs / 11,613 Kg = 38.5 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 21.97 ft / 6.69 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 117.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.1 %
Waterplane Area: 35,924 Square feet or 3,337 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 738 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.45
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
0.50" torpedo bulkhead won't stop splinters from the outer hull penetrating into the magazine/machinery spaces, nor provide any subdivision for layered protection.
Is this better?
QuoteCA22, Republic of China Cruiser Killer laid down 1922
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 20,720 t standard; 21,857 t normal; 22,767 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 82.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
198.12 m / 198.12 m x 24.99 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1922 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,168 lbs / 2,798 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 497.00 ft / 151.49 m 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 497.00 ft / 151.49 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 120,235 shp / 89,695 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,047 tons
Complement:
898 - 1,168
Cost:
£5.233 million / $20.931 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 771 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 6,613 tons, 30.3 %
- Belts: 2,687 tons, 12.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 515 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 1,350 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,994 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 67 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 4,079 tons, 18.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,225 tons, 37.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,857 tons, 8.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,762 lbs / 11,685 Kg = 38.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 21.97 ft / 6.69 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 117.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.1 %
Waterplane Area: 35,924 Square feet or 3,337 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 733 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
High firepower and barrel no., low armor and speed. This was the result of treaty restrictions. A 43kton vessel would allow for heavy armor and 28 kts speed.
QuoteProject 938 Guangzhou, RRC Battleship laid down 1924
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 37,001 t standard; 38,660 t normal; 39,987 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
829.00 ft / 815.00 ft x 110.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
252.68 m / 248.41 m x 33.53 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1924 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (10x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1924 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 27,400 lbs / 12,428 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.80" / 71 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 61,122 shp / 45,597 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,987 tons
Complement:
1,378 - 1,792
Cost:
£12.124 million / $48.497 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,876 tons, 7.4 %
Armour: 10,906 tons, 28.2 %
- Belts: 3,579 tons, 9.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,021 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 2,999 tons, 7.8 %
- Armour Deck: 3,208 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 99 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,013 tons, 5.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,875 tons, 48.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,660 tons, 9.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 331 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
49,943 lbs / 22,654 Kg = 36.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 8.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 17.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 18.53 ft / 5.65 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.7 %
Waterplane Area: 61,927 Square feet or 5,753 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 236 lbs/sq ft or 1,152 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Hey, Agincourt, but different.
Quote...Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length...
You could certainly have the same ship in a 220m hull if you increase the BC to 0.6 & the draught.
Jef
Proof against it's own guns from the range of ~9000 yds to 20,920 yds.
Proof against the DKB 15" 750kg shell from the range of 9,870 yds to 21,420 yds.
Btw, remarkably similar performance for the shells!
QuoteProject 938 Guangzhou, RRC Battleship laid down 1924
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 37,000 t standard; 38,630 t normal; 39,934 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
735.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 110.00 ft x 28.50 ft (normal load)
224.03 m / 219.76 m x 33.53 m x 8.69 m
Armament:
16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1924 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (10x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1924 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 27,400 lbs / 12,428 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 465.00 ft / 141.73 m 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 465.00 ft / 141.73 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.40" / 86 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 87,773 shp / 65,479 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,935 tons
Complement:
1,377 - 1,791
Cost:
£12.504 million / $50.016 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,876 tons, 7.4 %
Armour: 11,273 tons, 29.2 %
- Belts: 3,462 tons, 9.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 989 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 3,056 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 3,642 tons, 9.4 %
- Conning Tower: 123 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,891 tons, 7.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,628 tons, 45.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,630 tons, 9.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 332 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44,925 lbs / 20,378 Kg = 32.7 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 17.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.598
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.55 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 19.15 ft / 5.84 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.2 %
Waterplane Area: 57,907 Square feet or 5,380 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 235 lbs/sq ft or 1,148 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
1) Why compare to Me? Plan on war?
2) Your's is laid down 4yrs after mine, so mine in service 1 yr before your's starts
3) If your 13" belt/3.4" deck are proof then my 15" belt/4" deck are too
4) You have no end or upper belts. Bow hits flood like a mofo and hits above the belt will wreck your secondary magazines.
5) I hate quads.
1) No, it's just that your design was the further up thread that contained a battleship design. :D
2) Yea, I did it to fudge on the engine.
3) 4" deck? Last I read your Deck is 3.54"/90mm. And my Belt is inclined 20 degrees, yours 10 degrees? But you are right, both are immune to each other.
4) If I were to compare ships, I have twice the number of barrels, thus twice the chance to make hits. Thin end or upper belt will be shredded by BB fire anyways.
5) I know you do, I love them.
Basically it's fun to compare similar tonnage ships. I basically gave up speed and protection to have excessive firepower.
What would you rate her immune zone as vs. the Confederate model 15" 2,000 lb Heavy type shells? Or, for that matter, her guns' effectiveness against Cross Mirage's 380mm @ 20 belt and 120mm deck?
For Project 938, the immunity zone is somewhere: ~11,600 yds - 19,450 yds.
For Cross Mirage ~9000 yds - ~25,500yds
Assuming your solid is a single deck.
Cross Mirage really has too much armor, both for the Belt and the Deck. 15" inclined 20 degrees is quite overkill.
Quote from: Valles on August 12, 2010, 07:53:32 PM
What would you rate her immune zone as vs. the Confederate model 15" 2,000 lb Heavy type shells?
The CSA 15" is only an 40cal gun so the MV will be low. Assuming 2100fps the Chinese ship is safe from 12,240yds out to 15,750yds.
Ah I didn't know it was a 40cal gun.
Quote from: Logi on August 12, 2010, 09:27:27 PM
Ah I didn't know it was a 40cal gun.
Yes, quite the antique.
Ok I calculated the Muzzle Energy and from there figured out the Muzzle Velocity.
CSA 15"/40 Gun 2000lb shell. 2323.79FPS.
So Cross Mirage's immunity zone is roughly: 5,000 yds - 22,500 yds.
The Project 938 immunity zone is roughly: 8,000 yds - 17,810 yds.
It seems 13" inclined at 20 degrees is enough for most battles, though one would go 13.5" inclined at 20 degrees for protection against 16" shells. The real different between the two ships is the thickness of the deck armor.
4.7" vs 3.4", the Cross Mirage is a 1.3" advantage in thickness over the Project 938 resulting in a ~4,690 yds difference in immunity zones.
Sorry slight mistake. I forgot to re-calculate the muzzle velocity of my guns due to the increased shell weight for the caliber.
The Project 938
Proof against it's own guns from the range of ~7,500 yds to 19,940 yds.
Proof against the DKB 15" 750kg shell from the range of 9,870 yds to 21,420 yds.
We see here the main difference between the shells. The 14" Superheavy exchanges ~2,370 yds of belt penetration for ~1,480 yds of deck penetration. In other words, the Superheavy is a better deck penetrator than the DKB 15" but a worse belt penetrator.
Of course. The higher MV of my lighter shell will cause a flatter trajectory which will improve belt penetration anyway.
Frowns at Logi's 356mm/L50 and notices it is the same gun Italia is using. The One the British built for the Russians with the Heavy AP round to make it almost as effective as the British 15"/42
All told you designed a ship using the old Tripod of Guns, Speed, Armor... you sacrafice from one or more to increase the other.
I would comment that if your ships belt is Inclined at a 20 Degree slant then you really need to increase its height, others have pointed out to me that slanted belts take up more weight and have to be slightly taller to cover the same volume of space. Your Belt is only 3.99m tall while your ship is 5.79m something here is exposed. ;) And its more then you front and rear end ???
Cross Mirage's barbettes - and really her entire design - are rated to fire rather greater guns than were available when she was first drawn up in 1912. Her armor suite and mount bracing are designed to cope with 400mm/L60 900kg guns, or defend against somewhat shorter 16-18 inch guns. The CSA's 'Fifteen-Inch Heavy Bore', as I think of it, took about the same magazine weight and was easily available at that point, but I've always intended the design as being rated to take new, nastier guns on essentially a 'plug and play' basis.
The fact that Richmond's terms mean no realistic battleship can afford to carry the kind of weapons that it'd take to threaten her protection is, if anything, serendipity - taking her from 'formidable' to 'outright nightmare'. Certainly, I could've shaved at least four thousand tons off of her total weight if I'd gone with a more conventionally balanced armor scheme, but I consider the additional margin of durability to be worth the price of a light cruiser - come to that, if the Mods had considered it technically feasible, her belt would've been even thicker.
That said, 938 has the speed to get inside CM's immunity zone with ease, and more than half-again as many chances to hit, so, in current configuration, I'd actually give her decent odds. Phrased in terms of what to expect compared with a ship something like six-to-ten years younger, I consider 'anybody's game' to be quite satisfactory.
Logi, can you calculate how my latest 28kt BB (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1925.msg60692#msg60692) performs in comparison? That is my immunity zone against your 14" guns and your immunity zone against the 16"/40 960 kg shells.
EDIT:
Come to think about it, those are "only" 16"/L40 not 45. The next generation will be 45 calibers in length.
Immunity Zone of the "Kaap Delgado" to the Project 938 is:
~8,800 yds - 19,960 yds.
Immunity Zone of the Project 938 to the "Kaap Delgado" is:
~10,400 yds - 18,300 yds.
Advantage is that the Project 938 can keep within the immunity zone of both ships. In that case, it's a matter of soft kills rather than sinking and the Project 938 with the excess amount of barrels is designed to soft kill.
Btw, you should write kton rather than kt. Made me think your BB runs at 28kts for a minute there.
Quote from: ctwaterman on August 12, 2010, 10:14:44 PM
Frowns at Logi's 356mm/L50 and notices it is the same gun Italia is using. The One the British built for the Russians with the Heavy AP round to make it almost as effective as the British 15"/42
All told you designed a ship using the old Tripod of Guns, Speed, Armor... you sacrafice from one or more to increase the other.
I would comment that if your ships belt is Inclined at a 20 Degree slant then you really need to increase its height, others have pointed out to me that slanted belts take up more weight and have to be slightly taller to cover the same volume of space. Your Belt is only 3.99m tall while your ship is 5.79m something here is exposed. ;) And its more then you front and rear end ???
Actually using 356mm/45, but the 356mm/50 is a better penetrator on all levels.
The Project 938
Proof against it's own guns from the range of ~7,500 yds to 19,940 yds.
Proof against the 14"/50 from the range of ~8,500 yds to 20,660 yds.
1000 yds of belt penetration and 720 yds of deck penetration resulting in an immunity zone 1,720 yds shorter.
My belt is inclined at 20 degrees, meaning the belt height is 12'. 6' above water, 6' under water. Yes, the upperworks and ends are exposed, but then everything of value is in the armored box. It makes the ship fragile though, so the Project 938 is something of a glass cannon.
Testing what a 40kton version brings to the table. Assuming to be equipped with 14"/45.
Immunity Zone to CSA 15"/40 Superheavy (2323.79 FPS): ~6,800 yds - ~21,200 yds
Immunity Zone to DKB 15": ~10,600 yds - ~24,400 yds (Btw I mistakenly assumed a lower MV for the DKB gun if it's a 45 caliber. This is the correct version, MV 2713.6 FPS)
Immunity Zone to RRC 14"/45 Superheavy (2446.8 FPS): ~7,500 yds - 23,050 yds
Immunity Zone to Italia 14"/50 Superheavy (2579.17 FPS): ~9,000 yds - ~24,200 yds
Immunity Zone to Orange 16"/40 960kg (2488.58 FPS): ~9,500 yds - ~21,000 yds
QuoteProject 938 Guangzhou, RRC Battleship laid down 1924
Displacement:
40,000 t light; 42,105 t standard; 43,869 t normal; 45,280 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
735.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 119.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
224.03 m / 219.76 m x 36.27 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1924 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (10x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1924 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 27,400 lbs / 12,428 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.5" / 343 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 19.70 ft / 6.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 12.5" / 318 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 95,768 shp / 71,443 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,176 tons
Complement:
1,515 - 1,970
Cost:
£13.159 million / $52.636 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,876 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 14,925 tons, 34.0 %
- Belts: 5,499 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,043 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 3,619 tons, 8.3 %
- Armour Deck: 4,629 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Tower: 134 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,154 tons, 7.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,723 tons, 42.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,869 tons, 8.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 322 tons, 0.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,141 lbs / 25,012 Kg = 40.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 9.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
Roll period: 18.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.597
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 19.43 ft / 5.92 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.9 %
Waterplane Area: 62,548 Square feet or 5,811 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 235 lbs/sq ft or 1,147 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Quote from: Logi on August 13, 2010, 10:07:47 AM
Btw, you should write kton rather than kt. Made me think your BB runs at 28kts for a minute there.
Well, I'm pretty sure t is the Si-Unit name for ton. "k" is kilo (on thousend) so kt is kiloton and not an uncommon abbreviation, and "kn" is knot.
But I will try to remember.
Huh guess you learn something new everyday. I've never known the proper abbreviation of Knot.
My 15" is the historic 38 cm/45 SK/L45 gun as used on the RL Bayern class BBs. The MV is 2625fps and the armor penetration is (Non-inclinded)
Quote
| Range | Side Armor | Deck Armor |
| 10,936 yards (10,000 m) | 15.35 in (390 mm) | --- |
| 13,670 yards (12,500 m) | 13.78 in (350 mm) | --- |
| 21,872 yards (20,000 m) | 10.43 in (265 mm) | --- |
| 27,340 yards (25,000 m) | 8.66 in (220 mm) | --- |
Table from NavWeaps (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-45_skc13.htm) site
Immunity is 9,000 yds and out for the 13.5" @ 20 degrees main belt.
It's a Fuso with Quads, some may tear out their eyes now.
The principle is that recognizing penetrating hits on the belt and deck are night impossible (given current armor thickness) unless with a really heavy shell or large caliber like the 16" (which even then doesn't manage to outperform by volumes). So in effect, what is needed in overwhelming volume of fire over size of weapon.
That is, to render the enemy useless by achieving a high number of soft-kills much faster than the enemy, thereby removing the enemy's capability to fight.
Seeing as the RRC's only battleship caliber large weapon as the 14", it was picked and used. Due to the sheer number of 14" turrets mounted (6 Quads!), there could be no secondary battery due to the 40kt tonnage limit. But it might be for the better as it prevents the situation of secondaries getting in the way of the main guns and in the blast range. (A few twin MG emplacements were to the design as requested though to ward off any potential aerial threats or excessively small ship threats).
The main belt is 20 degrees inclined, making the real height 12'.
The somewhat thick face armor and thin roof armor were added after the observation that face armor had to be 17" thick to match the resistance properties of a 13.8" main belt inclined 20 degrees. That is, 18" thick turret armor gives the turret face an immunity zone larger than the main belt, thus reducing the change a main gun is knocked out of action.
The turret roof was thinned compared to previous designs when observed that having a deck twice the thickness of deck armor was useless (as said ship should be operating within the immunity zone of the ship's main belt and deck armor) and thus the weight savings were used to increased the turret side armor instead.
But well, 6 Quad Turret Battleships make hard compromises.
QuoteFuso-Wannabe, RRC Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
40,000 t light; 42,353 t standard; 44,440 t normal; 46,110 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.00 ft / 720.00 ft x 120.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
219.46 m / 219.46 m x 36.58 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
24 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 32,932 lbs / 14,938 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 13.14 ft / 4.01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 8.28" / 210 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 59,905 shp / 44,689 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,757 tons
Complement:
1,529 - 1,989
Cost:
£12.221 million / $48.883 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4,116 tons, 9.3 %
Armour: 13,968 tons, 31.4 %
- Belts: 3,700 tons, 8.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 962 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 5,180 tons, 11.7 %
- Armour Deck: 4,018 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 108 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,232 tons, 5.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,334 tons, 43.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,440 tons, 10.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
46,590 lbs / 21,133 Kg = 34.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 7.9 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 17.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.581
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.16 ft / 5.54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.2 %
Waterplane Area: 62,061 Square feet or 5,766 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 246 lbs/sq ft or 1,199 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.14
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
That's not gonna fit on there....and that position won't change unless you can somehow draw that...
I can and would but I am busy planning a war.
o wow... I getting flashes of what was thought would happen to Agincourt here...
The turret armor is such that it's immunity zone is even greater than the ship's main belt and deck. Meaning unlike certain ships around here, the face armor can not be penetrated so easily.
Also meaning that the turret's and their magazine are safe from enemy shells. If anything, I'm worried more about the short main belt length.
I ment capsizing trying to fire a full broadside :)
It is an extremely wide ship with a beam at 120 ft. That's just 1 feet and 1 inch off the Yamato's beam you know.
when I heard Fuso with quads, thats the fist thing that poped into my head
If anything I think the turrets, especially the roofs are overarmored, and the main belt is too short for a 23 knot, 720 foot long ship. It's ironic that a ship meant to soft-kill the enemy would present so small an armored area to the enemy. The logic of it seems internally consistent at least (designed to soft-kill an enemy armed with larger guns shooting AP rounds and all).
But what happens when it meets a 16" armed opponent with similar speed? Couldn't such a ship stay out of effective range of all those 14" guns and rain down AP shells at steep angles, defeating the relatively thin armored deck? It seems that if that's the case, this ship would never get close enough to execute it's strategy.
Also, having now anti-tb defense at all is a questionable strategy for a ship operating near so many TB happy foes and potential foes. One would hope it has lots of capable escorts. Recent battles have shown the importance of capital ship mounted anti-TB weapons for "last ditch" defense against determined torpedo attack (at least IMHO).
QuoteIf anything I think the turrets, especially the roofs are overarmored, and the main belt is too short for a 23 knot, 720 foot long ship. It's ironic that a ship meant to soft-kill the enemy would present so small an armored area to the enemy. The logic of it seems internally consistent at least (designed to soft-kill an enemy armed with larger guns shooting AP rounds and all).
Actually, by my calculations, the face armor outperforms the main belt by maybe 1000~2000 yds of immunity. The roof is impenetrable at any distance of course. However, as I said, 40kt capped ships make hard compromises.
Here this ship offers a higher chance of being hit in an unarmored area in return for 3 x the chance to do so on the enemy. 24 guns vs 8 guns for a short main belt.
Oh and btw, this ship is designed AoN style so that even if the outer area is riddled with holes, it can still float. You notice it says main belt is 107% of normal length.
QuoteBut what happens when it meets a 16" armed opponent with similar speed? Couldn't such a ship stay out of effective range of all those 14" guns and rain down AP shells at steep angles, defeating the relatively thin armored deck? It seems that if that's the case, this ship would never get close enough to execute it's strategy.
Would be if not considering the state of current 16" guns. Let's use the 16"/40 carrying a 960kg shell used by Orange.
Immunity Zone of the belt and deck is 10,000 yds - 18,500 yds.
Immunity Zone of the belt and deck to the 14"/45 Superheavy is: 10,430 yds - 20,360 yds.
The immunity zone against the 14"/45 is roughly 2300 yds larger than the 16"/40. That's actually not a whole lot.
As you noted, staying out of the effective range could most certainly be done, but the key word is EFFECTIVE. As the RRC noted, it's pretty much NOT effective at all ranges for large caliber weapons due to the thickness of armor and the similarly of how much armor ships have. It's simply not worth the addition weight for the very low gains in protection.
However, not all portions of the ship is immune, thus you fire at those areas to cause a soft kill. In fact, you don't have to close in to do this. That is, it doesn't have to the close the range at all and can fire any ANY range because either ways, somethings will not going to be protected against a 14" APC shell going at a steep angle.
The point is not to close the distance, but to soft kill a ship at any distance. Precisely because it's soft killing, not attempting to penetrate.
QuoteAlso, having now anti-tb defense at all is a questionable strategy for a ship operating near so many TB happy foes and potential foes. One would hope it has lots of capable escorts. Recent battles have shown the importance of capital ship mounted anti-TB weapons for "last ditch" defense against determined torpedo attack (at least IMHO).
As I said, having a secondary would interfere with the main batteries firing arcs and that it couldn't be carried without breaking the 40kt limit anyways. Thus the ship has to operate with escorts. But if you're pitting this ship on a solo mission, you should expect it to be sunk anyways. No amount of secondaries will prevent a torpedo kill from a determined enemy.
Note* By Immunity Zone I mean Proof from the gun. Partially penetrated is a different number by far.
Quick sketch of the placement for everything.
(http://i34.tinypic.com/fclgrd.jpg)
Scale: 1 pixel = 1 ft
Blue Box is a turret (40 ft diameter for 14" quads), Gun is Gun Barrels (I used 40 ft out of the barrel, should really be 30-35 ft).
Yellow lines denote the superstructure area (for forward and aft bridge), I presume a thin level of super-structure under the two center guns.
Red denotes the armored box area.
Black denotes the center-line, the forecastle limit, and the quarterdeck limit.
As you can see at most, the forecastle limit is crossed. Adjust to 15% forecastle and we are fine. As the deck in this portion is flush, this takes/adds no composite strength, thus I will not post the SS with 15% forecastle.
Would it work?
By all means.
Could you build it?
By all means!
Can I sink it with 1/4 the tonnage in destroyers in a coordinated attack?
BY ALL MEANS!!!
By the time that I tied up the escorting vessels in a conventional naval battle, this monster would suddenly be staring down the barrel of about 90 torpedoes aimed for it. It has no way to defend itself from small, fast-moving attackers that manage to get in under it's escort cover. So, if you want a white elephant for national pride that will only ensure that the MK will wint he war... build away.
When did you ever get the impression I was actually building this ships?
You do realize, I have about twenty different large ship designs posted but all I've been building are 200t TBs.
QuoteCan I sink it with 1/4 the tonnage in destroyers in a coordinated attack?
BY ALL MEANS!!!
CT made a elaborate explanation on this, if there is a sizable escort, which there should be, you will need maybe 70 destroyers. Sure, less tonnage, but building them in a useful time is a different matter. Not to mention the sudden bad press lost and the numbers of sailors dead.
To put it in a better way. Say I have three Chongqing's as escort. They all have 12 6" guns at a broadside. Say they begin firing at max FC range, 18,000 yds.
Say the Destroyers are now making full steam towards the ships at 32 kts. Say 2 6" shell will disable/sink a destroyer. Each shell has something of a 1/20 chance to land.
The RoF for the 6"/50 is about 6 rounds/min. The Destroyers cover ~1080 yds per minute. Destroyers released torpedoes at 8000 yds.
So we have a volley of 36 6" shells, 2 hits to sink, and a time of 9.26 minutes to close to torpedo distance.
So in that time, 2000 6" have flown. Chances are 100 have hit. So we have 50 destroyers sunk or disabled without releasing torpedoes.
And DDs that can take 2 6" shells before sinking are usually 750 tons or above. So you lost 37,500 tons of destroyers in just one rush (going by the minimal tonnage of 750ton DDs).
--------
China's cruisers are not the conventional cruisers, they are not cruiser fighters, they are torpedo-boat and destroyer sinkers. They were never meant to perform anti-cruiser duty. Hence they have an extremely high number of barrels, not to fight cruisers, but to kill the swarm.
So a fleet makeup would look something like this:
2 Huge BB
6 CL (TB/DD Killer)
12 Boomsticks (DDs that kill Cruisers)
In other words,Those DDs, (the ones with 6"/52 gun which is extremely unsuited for anti-TB/DD work due to RoF) will be the ones sinking your cruisers. The Cruisers wouldn't be tied up.
As for the Boomstick effectiveness...
Each 6"/52 shell can penetrate anything short of, I think 2" deck? And then you have 4 guns on each DDs carrying that. Sure the DDs are easy to sink, but to fight a 12kt Cruiser, I have 12 DDs. So volume of fire is maybe 8 x 8" vs 48 x 6" shells.
RoF means in a minute, 8-16 8" shells in a min, 192-240 6" shells in a min.
In terms of Broadside weight: that's 2080lb-4160lb of 8" shells vs. 24,576lb-30,720lb of 6" shells.
Ouch.
Quote from: Logi on August 26, 2010, 04:30:48 PM
When did you ever get the impression I was actually building this ships?
You do realize, I have about twenty different large ship designs posted but all I've been building are 200t TBs.
QuoteCan I sink it with 1/4 the tonnage in destroyers in a coordinated attack?
BY ALL MEANS!!!
CT made a elaborate explanation on this, if there is a sizable escort, which there should be, you will need maybe 70 destroyers. Sure, less tonnage, but building them in a useful time is a different matter. Not to mention the sudden bad press lost and the numbers of sailors dead.
I know you're building TB's... I was just pointing out the difference between 'cool big ship' and 'practical big ship.
I'll even play along with your example to illustrate my point.
OK, I send in my 10,000 tons worth of destroyers,
plus THEIR escorts, against your monster and it's escorts.
Let's say that I send in an equal tonnage of ships- albeit distributed a bit differently:
3
Hatchitigbee's to make your escorts miserable - 15,000 tons
5
El Paso's to escort my destroyers to the target - 22,250 tons
10
TR-235's to actually go in and torpedo the BB - 10,000 tons
My total strike force has been assembled for only a bit more tonnage than your battleship.
So, now you have twenty-one 14" guns to fire on me... if you see me.
Whether you see me before I see you- or if we see each other outside of 5.5"-6" gun range at all- is a moot point.
By the time range closes, you have 4 ships firing on 18... not good odds at all, even if one of them is your monster. Your escorts are NOT getting target-practice quality shots off due to the fact that they are dancing, trying to get away from the ships that are shooting at
them, and totally ignoring the BB except for standard evasive movement. Your escorts can be damaged by any one of my ships all things being equal, and are trying not to get hit by them just as hard as I'm trying not to get hit by you. So, your 4 ships that can fore on (most likely) only 4 targets at once are now under attack by 8 ships, all of them armored as well or better than 3 of your ships.
Again... not great odds.
While your forces are trying to take out my escorting ships, the DD's bore in for the kill.
Say I loose half- that's still 5 ships with 6 torps each still making torpedo range... 30 torps are launched from 8000 yards.
So, whatever happens to our escorts- they aren't the subject- you still think that my strike force would fare so poorly as in your lop-sided example? Especially if I'm sending in a well-balanced escort of my own, in addition to my 10,000 tons of destroyers?
Especially if I throw in a BB or two of my own to 'escort' my destroyers?
Say, roughly equal in tonnage to your escorts?
QuoteSo, now you have twenty-one 14" guns to fire on me... if you see me.
No I do not see.
QuoteBy the time range closes, you have 4 ships firing on 18... not good odds at all, even if one of them is your monster.
Say how?
QuoteYour escorts are NOT getting target-practice quality shots off due to the fact that they are dancing, trying to get away from the ships that are shooting at them, and totally ignoring the BB except for standard evasive movement.
Your ships should be dancing around from Boomstick shots. Nothing is immune save the BB and the BB should be occupied by the monster BB.
QuoteYour escorts can be damaged by any one of my ships all things being equal, and are trying not to get hit by them just as hard as I'm trying not to get hit by you.
And your escorts shooting my cruisers got swiss-cheesed with holes by the Boomsticks.
QuoteYour escorts can be damaged by any one of my ships all things being equal, and are trying not to get hit by them just as hard as I'm trying not to get hit by you.
If I had the equal tonnage to use, you expect for ever 1kt your ships have, 1 Boomstick is there to fire. And yields a higher RoF and Broadside weight per min than your ships do, ton for ton.
QuoteSo, your 4 ships that can fore on (most likely) only 4 targets at once are now under attack by 8 ships, all of them armored as well or better than 3 of your ships.
As I noted, at this stage, armored a bit better doesn't really do anything. For immunity from the Boomsticks your large ships need BB style Deck armor. Which I doubt they have.
Let's make this scenario then:
Say you had two Tennesse class ships (30.3 kt each)
3 Hatchitigbee's to make your escorts miserable - 18,000 tons (6kt each x 3 is 18 kt, not 15 kt)
5 El Paso's to escort my destroyers to the target - 22,250 tons (can't find this one, think 4,450 t each)
10 TR-235's to actually go in and torpedo the BB - 10,000 tons (1 kt each)
Total: 110.85 kt
Say I have 1 Fusop Wannabe (40 kt)
6 Chongqing - 36,000 tons (6kt each)
34 Boomsticks - 34,000 tons (1 kt each)
Total: 110 kt
Engagement: Your two BBs were be occupied with my Fuso-Wannabe as is mine.
Your three Hatchchitigbees and 5 El Paso will be engaged with my 34 Boomsticks.
That's 3 x (5 x 7.5" gun) + 5 x (4 x 4.5" gun) vs. 34 x (4 x 6" gun).
RoF of 7.5" I will assume an optimistic 2 rounds/min.
Rof of the 4.5" I will assume 6 rounds/min.
Rof of 6" is a lower 4 round/min.
That means in the Escorts Vs. Boomstick battle, 30 x 7.5" shell + 120 x 4.5" shell VS. 544 x 6" shell per minute.
That makes broadside weight of 1 minute: 12,000lbs VS. 69,632 lbs.
Oh, and your escorts do not have the armor to protect against the 6" are any useful range.
Needless to say 2000 6" shells from the Chongqing will fly before the TR-235 can close the distance and that means 100 shells will land. By survivability, each TR-235 can last 2.5 shells, meaning every three shells they sink.
I have enough escort fire to sink the TR-235s 3 times over.
Ultimately the screen is very sound, what isn't is the chance that the Fuso-wannabe might be out matched and lose to the two Tennessee.
Quote...To put it in a better way. Say I have three Chongqing's as escort. They all have 12 6" guns at a broadside. Say they begin firing at max FC range, 18,000 yds.
Say the Destroyers are now making full steam towards the ships at 32 kts. Say 2 6" shell will disable/sink a destroyer. Each shell has something of a 1/20 chance to land.
The RoF for the 6"/50 is about 6 rounds/min. The Destroyers cover ~1080 yds per minute. Destroyers released torpedoes at 8000 yds.
So we have a volley of 36 6" shells, 2 hits to sink, and a time of 9.26 minutes to close to torpedo distance.
So in that time, 2000 6" have flown. Chances are 100 have hit. So we have 50 destroyers sunk or disabled without releasing torpedoes.
And DDs that can take 2 6" shells before sinking are usually 750 tons or above. So you lost 37,500 tons of destroyers in just one rush (going by the minimal tonnage of 750ton DDs).
...
I like your calculation
Jef
This is just my adaption of CT's calculations for why the Swiss should have made off with much fewer kills and many more loses during their destroyer/torpedo-boat raid of the Allied forces.
Takes a lot to make a destroyer charge effective.
Quote...Takes a lot to make a destroyer charge effective....
Takes a lot to repulse them...
Jef ;)
True, but you think a navy geared specifically towards repulsing swarms would know how to. Not every nation's naval policy has been, defeat the swarm, for years.
Also Destroyers charges have never ended well unless under good circumstances. Meaning visibility is heavily obscured, the enemy is heavily suppressed by supporting fire, etc. Which, in this case, couldn't be done.
Besides, my example is a Fuso-Wannabe not moving parallel to the enemy ships. If it would moving back at an angle which still allows fire, it would extend the distance and time needed to close in quite some. Giving in more chances to sink the destroyer rush.
Let's say the Fuso* is doing a 45 degrees retreat, this still allows firing from the Fuso*.
The distance gained by such going at 23 kts (if we assume that the Fuso* simply goes down in direction, and do not count added distance to to it being horizontal as well)
then the Fuso* is making ~16.26 knots in the downward vector.
That means the Destroyers are only gaining (still by trial speed, they are going 32.5 knots) only 16.24 knots.
That means they are covering 548.64 yards every minute.
Assuming they started their charge at 18,000 yards and I didn't fire until 18,000 yds, they have 18.23 minutes to close the distance to effective torpedo range (8,000 yds) under fire.
Almost double the time needed to close in due to my 45 degrees angling, giving time for my escorts to launch 3924 6" shells into the air.
Again, three hits to sinks and 1/20 a chance to hit, 65.4 TR-235 sunk.
As for escorts and what-not. A Fleet consisting of Fuso*, Chongqings is not complete as it lacks firepower vs escort ships. That means Boomsticks.
You highlighted a good point in your original post, my cruisers were sunk or pinned. But that was precisely because they weren't made to engage those enemies. That is the Boomstick's job. Indeed, take one element of the defense out and the whole task force collapses.
That 7000t Pocket BB (Monitor) that Jeftge pointed out interested me, so here is my version of it.
The 9" Belt @ 20 degrees sits 12' tall and makes it pretty hard to penetrate. Tough nut to crack.
QuoteLurdan, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
7,000 t light; 7,354 t standard; 8,046 t normal; 8,599 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 65.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
120.00 m / 120.00 m x 19.81 m x 6.40 m
Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 4,276 lbs / 1,939 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 255.00 ft / 77.72 m 13.14 ft / 4.01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,813 shp / 15,527 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,245 tons
Complement:
424 - 552
Cost:
£1.751 million / $7.004 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 534 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 2,192 tons, 27.2 %
- Belts: 1,321 tons, 16.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 353 tons, 4.4 %
- Armour Deck: 484 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 35 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 775 tons, 9.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,155 tons, 39.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,046 tons, 13.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 343 tons, 4.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,858 lbs / 4,018 Kg = 13.3 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.524
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 85.4 %
Waterplane Area: 17,431 Square feet or 1,619 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 626 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.09
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
;)
Economical for heavy coastal protection, semi powerfull, could be add in the Battle line, able to sink a 10000t AC & 4 ships to have 28000t.
She need a light BC to be sunk.
Wheeler -16000t 32kts, don't like very much to catch 2 Lurdan PBs
I love that kind of compact ship :-*
Jef ;)
I agree... this is a really nice little CDS.
I'd need one of my older semi-dreads to put it under, though this ship would hardly hurt them.
And Jef, Wheeler was made to (essentially) be bait for a BC- definitely not to fight one. They are just there to give a battle cruiser something to chase down while the battlefleet rolls up to your front door and starts 'knocking.'
Armored like a real battleship, armed like one, but the tonnage is way down.
QuoteLight Ship, RRC Light Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,171 t standard; 20,418 t normal; 21,415 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 88.60 ft x 26.30 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 170.00 m x 27.01 m x 8.02 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 13,624 lbs / 6,180 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.5" / 343 mm 352.00 ft / 107.29 m 13.14 ft / 4.01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 352.00 ft / 107.29 m 26.30 ft / 8.02 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32,986 shp / 24,608 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,244 tons
Complement:
853 - 1,110
Cost:
£4.725 million / $18.900 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,425 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 6,690 tons, 32.8 %
- Belts: 2,746 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 856 tons, 4.2 %
- Armament: 1,110 tons, 5.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,914 tons, 9.4 %
- Conning Tower: 64 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,229 tons, 6.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,356 tons, 40.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,418 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,884 lbs / 10,833 Kg = 17.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.43 ft / 4.09 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101.9 %
Waterplane Area: 34,483 Square feet or 3,204 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 900 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.43
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
A more modern version of the Oklahoma. :)
Almost to the ton.
For it's tonnage, not bad. 2 things I'd change though.
1) You don't really need 18" of armor on the face plate. The biggest gun in Nverse is 16".
2) 4" CT armor will only guarantee that the shell fuzes and that everyone inside is dead. If you can't armor it to stop a BB caliber AP shell, then do 1-2" splinter protection, which will also stop smaller HE rounds, and let anything bigger pass through w/o detonating.
I agree with Sachmle
Jef
The 18" face armor thickness gives the face armor similar protection to the sloped main belt.
QuoteLight Ship, RRC Light Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,171 t standard; 20,418 t normal; 21,415 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 88.60 ft x 26.30 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 170.00 m x 27.01 m x 8.02 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 13,624 lbs / 6,180 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.5" / 343 mm 352.00 ft / 107.29 m 13.14 ft / 4.01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 352.00 ft / 107.29 m 26.30 ft / 8.02 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.88" / 22 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32,986 shp / 24,608 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,244 tons
Complement:
853 - 1,110
Cost:
£4.725 million / $18.900 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,425 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 6,689 tons, 32.8 %
- Belts: 2,746 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 856 tons, 4.2 %
- Armament: 1,141 tons, 5.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,914 tons, 9.4 %
- Conning Tower: 32 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,229 tons, 6.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,357 tons, 40.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,418 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,804 lbs / 10,797 Kg = 17.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.43 ft / 4.09 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101.9 %
Waterplane Area: 34,483 Square feet or 3,204 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 900 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Quote from: Logi on September 07, 2010, 05:10:28 PM
The 18" face armor thickness gives the face armor similar protection to the sloped main belt.
Ahh...didn't know that. Jolly good show then old chap.
WOW... so you'll have a 12' belt.
Kinda short for modern guns.
QuoteAhh...didn't know that. Jolly good show then old chap.
QuoteThat is against the RRC 14"/45 Superheavy...
...For comparison, using 18" face armor, immunity zone is: 7,460 yds - not penetrable.
So for "belt" hits, at 16~17" face armor (turret) is the rough equivalent to the 13.8" belt sloped 10 degrees.
Of course the belt here is 13.5" sloped 20 degrees, but I figure it's approximately the same.
QuoteWOW... so you'll have a 12' belt.
Kinda short for modern guns.
??
Ok, you have a 13.14' high belt.
If your ship is steaming at flank speed (or maybe less) the wave/water interaction will wind up exposing some of the hull below the armor belt along the length of your ship. This is a BAD THING, as now that unarmored hull will now have neither armored belt nor water to defend it against shells. This means that the regular old thin hull plating will possibly be taking hits, and below the waterline at that. Ships sink very fast with holes in the bottom.
If the belt is sloped to any degree, then you'll have an effectively shorter belt... meaning 12' or so.
That means you'll have something like 6' above the waterline and 6' below it. That's not a lot of leeway with your ship taking hits and even average sized waves moving along the side of the ship.
QuoteIf your ship is steaming at flank speed (or maybe less) the wave/water interaction will wind up exposing some of the hull below the armor belt along the length of your ship.
Must not be in the Chinese Seas then.
QuoteIf the belt is sloped to any degree, then you'll have an effectively shorter belt... meaning 12' or so.
It is indeed a 12' tall belt.
QuoteThat's not a lot of leeway with your ship taking hits and even average sized waves moving along the side of the ship.
What kind of waves are we going into?
In the Chinese seas, the highest waves go 3'.
-----------
It is unarmored one deck above waterline. The rest is covered by the 2.5" TB system which span the entire underwater depth.
The waves themselves only make it worse, just the motion of the water past the ship at speed causes it to form a 'hole' about midships where the bow wave has fallen off. See the pic of Baden on NavWeaps for a visual demonstration.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-45_skc13.htm (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-45_skc13.htm)
Ok... this would happen in ANY seas, anywhere. The 'wave' you are interacting with is your own bow wave. The bow wave will make enough disturbance that your ship will unmask part of the hull below the belt through it's own movement through the water. Sam's pic of the German battleship illustrates this perfectly.
In short, you ship brings the 6-8 foot seas needed to screw itself along with it to the fight...
That ship is on water that is smooth as glass, and yet you have two spots where the hull below the belt is exposed.
QuoteOk... this would happen in ANY seas, anywhere. The 'wave' you are interacting with is your own bow wave. The bow wave will make enough disturbance that your ship will unmask part of the hull below the belt through it's own movement through the water. Sam's pic of the German battleship illustrates this perfectly.
In short, you ship brings the 6-8 foot seas needed to screw itself along with it to the fight...
Actual since the speed/length of the ship is ext6remely close to the magically 0.94. The ship outruns most of it's bow wave, so it actually settles slightly instead of having the bow wave expose part of the hull. Even if the wave does expose a portion, it would be located aft, a portion that probably isn't armored at all to begin with.
The SMS Bayern, which Samchle linked, has a 0.90 speed/length and causes the wave to expose part of the hull.
But of course, if the main belt could be made taller, it would be better. As the 0.94 number applies only to still waters and moving through them.
Quote from: Logi on September 07, 2010, 06:59:50 PM
The SMS Bayern, which Samchle linked, has a 0.90 speed/length and causes the wave to expose part of the hull.
But of course, if the main belt could be made taller, it would be better. As the 0.94 number applies only to still waters and moving through them.
Link something explaining this... I can't seem to find anything that covers what your saying in wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_making_resistance
My google fu is strong tonight.
I am not that sure on the 0.94 magic number, as I don't have any solid evidence linking to it's supposed effects on bow wave trough. A ship going 0.94 or above matches the bow waves so it settles slightly in the waters instead of rising or being exposed.
I prefer a more detailed calculation.
The Bow Wave height at the forward perpendicular is caluclated by:
hs = 0.75 x b x ( l / le ) x Fr^2
The Froude Number (squared) for the ship in question is 0.0768.... etc.
The ( l / le) is irrelevant due to the waterline being the longest length between perpendiculars by the ship.
Thus the hs as calculated is 1.55 meters or roughly 5.08 feet.
That means the trough of the wave generated by speed is 5 ft at most. Which means 1' of armored belt remains underwater. Not a lot, but still not exposed.
-----
Calculations for the SMS Bayern.
The Froude Number (squared) for the Bayern is 0.07254..... etc.
The SMS Bayern also has an inverted bow and a stern hang, so l / le must be calculated now. Damnit!
Supposedly the waterline length is 179.4m and the overall length is 180m.
That makes hs = 1.6376.... meters. Or roughly 5.37 feet.
So 5.37 feet of the underwater hull is exposed. I don't know if the Bayern's armored belt covered that length.
But you are correct, moving through a sea wave (not bow wave alone) would expose the unarmored hull for my ship.
Redesigned. Main belt is sloped 20 degrees giving it a vertical height of 14'. Of this, 6' is above water, 8' is underwater.
QuoteLight Ship, RRC Light Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,171 t standard; 20,418 t normal; 21,415 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 88.60 ft x 26.30 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 170.00 m x 27.01 m x 8.02 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 13,624 lbs / 6,180 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.5" / 343 mm 361.00 ft / 110.03 m 15.33 ft / 4.67 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 361.00 ft / 110.03 m 18.30 ft / 5.58 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32,986 shp / 24,608 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,244 tons
Complement:
853 - 1,110
Cost:
£4.725 million / $18.900 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,425 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 6,883 tons, 33.7 %
- Belts: 3,266 tons, 16.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 611 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 1,059 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,914 tons, 9.4 %
- Conning Tower: 32 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,229 tons, 6.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,163 tons, 40.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,418 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 301 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,578 lbs / 10,241 Kg = 16.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 12.08 ft / 3.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.4 %
Waterplane Area: 34,483 Square feet or 3,204 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 892 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
NOW I like.
A great little light BB.
Lengthened the TDS so it overlaps with the Main Belt.
QuoteLight Ship, RRC Light Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
18,005 t light; 19,176 t standard; 20,423 t normal; 21,420 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 88.60 ft x 26.30 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 170.00 m x 27.01 m x 8.02 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 13,624 lbs / 6,180 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.5" / 343 mm 361.00 ft / 110.03 m 15.33 ft / 4.67 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 361.00 ft / 110.03 m 21.60 ft / 6.58 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 0.64" / 16 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32,992 shp / 24,612 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,244 tons
Complement:
853 - 1,110
Cost:
£4.725 million / $18.902 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,425 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 6,911 tons, 33.8 %
- Belts: 3,266 tons, 16.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 721 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 977 tons, 4.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,914 tons, 9.4 %
- Conning Tower: 32 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,229 tons, 6.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,140 tons, 39.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,418 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,680 lbs / 10,287 Kg = 16.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 12.08 ft / 3.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.4 %
Waterplane Area: 34,487 Square feet or 3,204 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 890 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform