Some time in the 1920's I will have to figure out what to do with my four remaining Pre-Dreadnought BB's.
Current Designs
QuoteAlfonso IV, Iberia Battleship laid down 1899
Displacement:
12,852 t light; 13,483 t standard; 14,386 t normal; 15,109 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
403.90 ft / 403.54 ft x 91.86 ft x 22.64 ft (normal load)
123.11 m / 123.00 m x 28.00 m x 6.90 m
Armament:
4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,161 lbs / 3,248 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 264.80 ft / 80.71 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 138.71 ft / 42.28 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Upper: 4.72" / 120 mm 264.80 ft / 80.71 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 9.06" / 230 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
3rd: 3.94" / 100 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 0.79" / 20 mm, Conning tower: 10.24" / 260 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14,488 ihp / 10,808 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,626 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
656 - 853
Cost:
£1.524 million / $6.095 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 895 tons, 6.2 %
Armour: 4,147 tons, 28.8 %
- Belts: 2,337 tons, 16.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,285 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 395 tons, 2.7 %
- Conning Tower: 130 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,300 tons, 16.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,226 tons, 36.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,534 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 284 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,369 lbs / 6,518 Kg = 21.5 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.06 ft / 4.59 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.06 ft / 4.59 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.06 ft / 4.59 m
- Stern: 15.06 ft / 4.59 m
- Average freeboard: 15.51 ft / 4.73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.6 %
Waterplane Area: 27,113 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 738 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Long Range Radio 25 tons, 259 tons construction reserve.
Quote
Battleships 2
Pelayo, Spain Battleship laid down 1897
Displacement:
12 641 t light; 13 282 t standard; 14 386 t normal; 15 270 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
403,87 ft / 403,54 ft x 91,86 ft x 22,64 ft (normal load)
123,10 m / 123,00 m x 28,00 m x 6,90 m
Armament:
4 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 669,80lbs / 303,82kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 9,84" / 250 mm guns in single mounts, 476,75lbs / 216,25kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns in single mounts, 137,06lbs / 62,17kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
16 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7 304 lbs / 3 313 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,0" / 280 mm 265,78 ft / 81,01 m 11,52 ft / 3,51 m
Ends: 5,91" / 150 mm 137,73 ft / 41,98 m 11,52 ft / 3,51 m
Upper: 8,66" / 220 mm 265,78 ft / 81,01 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 101% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11,0" / 280 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 7,87" / 200 mm
2nd: 9,06" / 230 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 5,91" / 150 mm
3rd: 4,72" / 120 mm - -
4th: 2,76" / 70 mm - -
5th: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1,38" / 35 mm, Conning tower: 10,24" / 260 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14 488 ihp / 10 808 Kw = 18,00 kts
Range 6 000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1 989 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
656 - 853
Cost:
£1,542 million / $6,168 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 913 tons, 6,3%
Armour: 4 620 tons, 32,1%
- Belts: 2 721 tons, 18,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 1 077 tons, 7,5%
- Armour Deck: 691 tons, 4,8%
- Conning Tower: 130 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 2 375 tons, 16,5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 644 tons, 32,3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 745 tons, 12,1%
Miscellaneous weights: 90 tons, 0,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15 423 lbs / 6 996 Kg = 23,0 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,52
Metacentric height 9,0 ft / 2,7 m
Roll period: 12,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,39
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,600
Length to Beam Ratio: 4,39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,33 ft / 0,10 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20,44 ft / 6,23 m
- Forecastle (17%): 14,57 ft / 4,44 m
- Mid (50%): 14,57 ft / 4,44 m
- Quarterdeck (17%): 14,57 ft / 4,44 m
- Stern: 14,57 ft / 4,44 m
- Average freeboard: 14,97 ft / 4,56 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101,3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114,7%
Waterplane Area: 27 113 Square feet or 2 519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 660 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 1,98
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The idea here is to make the ships into more useful second line warships. Able to act as convoy escorts able to stand up to cruisers and the like. Engines are getting old so they will need to be replaced. I will figure out the costs in a bit.
QuotePelayo (reconstruction), Iberia Battleship laid down 1897 (Engine 1922)
Displacement:
13,001 t light; 13,616 t standard; 14,386 t normal; 15,003 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
403.86 ft / 403.54 ft x 91.86 ft x 22.64 ft (normal load)
123.10 m / 123.00 m x 28.00 m x 6.90 m
Armament:
4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns in single mounts, 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1897 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,835 lbs / 3,100 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 265.78 ft / 81.01 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 137.73 ft / 41.98 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Upper: 8.66" / 220 mm 265.78 ft / 81.01 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 6.50" / 165 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 9.84" / 250 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 9.06" / 230 mm
3rd: 4.72" / 120 mm - -
4th: 2.76" / 70 mm - -
5th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 10.24" / 260 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 22,002 shp / 16,413 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 10,700nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,387 tons
Complement:
656 - 853
Cost:
£1.277 million / $5.109 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 854 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 5,590 tons, 38.9 %
- Belts: 2,721 tons, 18.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,258 tons, 8.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,481 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 130 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 746 tons, 5.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,681 tons, 32.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,385 tons, 9.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,130 tons, 7.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,798 lbs / 8,980 Kg = 29.6 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.52 ft / 4.73 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Stern: 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 14.96 ft / 4.56 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.9 %
Waterplane Area: 27,113 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 665 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.01
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Long Range Radio 25 tons,
Fire Control 250 tons
855 tons construction reserve.
QuoteAlfonso IV (reconstruction), Iberia Battleship laid down 1899 (Engine 1922)
Displacement:
13,000 t light; 13,629 t standard; 14,386 t normal; 14,992 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
403.87 ft / 403.54 ft x 91.86 ft x 22.64 ft (normal load)
123.10 m / 123.00 m x 28.00 m x 6.90 m
Armament:
4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1899 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,118 lbs / 3,228 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 264.80 ft / 80.71 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 138.71 ft / 42.28 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Upper: 4.72" / 120 mm 264.80 ft / 80.71 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 6.50" / 165 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 9.84" / 250 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 9.06" / 230 mm
3rd: 3.94" / 100 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 10.24" / 260 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 22,002 shp / 16,413 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 10,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,364 tons
Complement:
656 - 853
Cost:
£1.307 million / $5.227 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 890 tons, 6.2 %
Armour: 5,697 tons, 39.6 %
- Belts: 2,337 tons, 16.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,748 tons, 12.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,481 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 130 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 746 tons, 5.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,349 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,386 tons, 9.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 319 tons, 2.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,660 lbs / 9,825 Kg = 32.3 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Stern: 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 15.52 ft / 4.73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120.7 %
Waterplane Area: 27,113 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 155 lbs/sq ft or 756 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.17
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Long Range Radio 25 tons,
Fire Control 250 tons
43 tons construction reserve.
10'' guns in a casement? Shells in a casement are handled by hand. That's gonna be ugly...
I figure that there would be a power loading of some type in there for such large projectiles. On the other hand the rate of fire is going to be stupid slow as whatever the setup is the weapons would train fairly slowly either requiring a return to a certain point to reload and then to return to aim. I figure one shot per gun every 2 minutes is likely with the secondary mounts. Doing a total reconstruction to create wing turrets wouldn't be worth the effort or odds are possible; even if the design is in effect the same as the follow ons but casements instead of wing turrets.
Just take them out and put them in a coastal fortification. Also, you forgot to check the boxes on both, it says diesel internal combustion.
The weapons are what they are, these are PDN's the weapons aren't the most effective mix possible on the tonnage by a long shot.
I didn't forget the check box the machinery is to be totally replaced with diesel engines. The engines will need to be replaced soon no matter what because of the ships age.
Reconstruction:
Pelayo 12 641 t light = 1.26 BP + $3.16
Old Engines 2,375 tons = 0.356 BP + $0.356 (SCRAP)
New Engines 746 tons = 0.746 BP + $1.492
New Armor
--Deck 790 tons = 0.790 BP + $0.790
--Armament 181 tons = 0.181 BP + $0.181
New Weapons
--150mm 154 tons = 0.154 BP + 0.154 BP
--40mm AA 1 tons = 0.001 BP + $0.001
FC 250 tons = 0.250 BP + $0.250
Total = 2.928 BP + $5.667
Alfonso IV 12,852 t light = 1.28 BP + $3.213
Old Engines 2,300 tons = 0.345 BP + $0.345 (SCRAP)
New Engines 746 tons = 0.746 BP + $1.492
New Armor
--Deck 1086 tons = 1.086 BP + $1.086
--Armament 463 tons = 0.463 BP + $0.463
FC 250 tons = 0.250 BP + $0.250
New Weapons
--40mm AA 1 tons = 0.001 BP + $0.001
Total 3.375 BP + $6.054
I am looking at this nets me something that can do the mission of a cruiser so the cost doesn't seam unreasonable with that expectation.
Michael
would it be possible to replace VTEs with ICEs? I know you cant switch from VTE to Turbines but this might make me reconsider some of my own plans should it be possible.
http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/misc/hessen/history.html
Hessen was converted from VTE to Turbines when she was made into a gunnery target ship.
I know the Soviets debated converting Rurik from VTE to Turbine before she was scrapped. I went with Diesel as such engines would have a smaller foot print and be easier to instal compared to boiler - turbine setup.
Michael
well that is interesting, I was under the impresion that such conversions were deamd impossible by the Nverse Powers that be. Definetly makes me reconsider some of my own plans though (and adds a small amount of options to what I do with the old Protodreads (in my case they are all 7 or so years out of reconstruction already and I was realy diging for ways to make them usefull)
Ahoj!
Your impression, Tanthalas, is correct. Conversions from VTE to turbines are not allowed.
Looking at the linked description, the Hessen seems to have been gutted (as in "extripated") and filled up again.
Borys
I had throught that the restriction had been dropped to be honest as I didn't see it listed anymore and when I ran the idea past Rocky he didn't blow it out of the water for the engine change. It could be Mike reading too much into things.
At the same time many of the capital ships still around in the 20's and 30's received massive reconstructions. The Italians Conte di Cavour Class and Andrea Doria Class were the most extreme and famous example. What I am doing to these ships I would suggest isn't as extreme as what the Italian's did. Japan heavily uprated the entire machinery units on most of its remaining battleline also.
If the mods say its not possible that fine but at the same time I do think its possible.
after a little research I tend to agree it is possible mike, however I to will abide by whatever the moderators decide
As I've stated before..and was never really answered on, I would think that since the main problem with swapping out a VTE and in a turbine is the shaft runs are to different due to where they connect to the different engines. Therefore I'd surmise that using TE drive, allowing you to leave the original shaft runs and just connect them to the electric motors, and then placing the turbines where there is room, would allow said swap.
This would be to rebuild the 4 ships to a common design. Remove the 250mm guns, casements, etc and put in a new turreted battery of 150mm guns. The question is there the deck space for the heavy 150mm battery? I am going to try to do a drawing, I am going to assume 25' for the 11" gun barbettes.
QuoteAlfonso IV-Pelayo (reconstruction), Iberia Battleship laid down 1899 (Engine 1922)
Displacement:
12,750 t light; 13,243 t standard; 14,386 t normal; 15,301 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
403.87 ft / 403.54 ft x 91.86 ft x 22.64 ft (normal load)
123.10 m / 123.00 m x 28.00 m x 6.90 m
Armament:
4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.49" / 12.5 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,335 lbs / 1,966 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 264.80 ft / 80.71 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 138.71 ft / 42.28 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Upper: 8.66" / 220 mm 264.80 ft / 80.71 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 6.50" / 165 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,002 shp / 16,413 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 16,410nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,058 tons
Complement:
656 - 853
Cost:
£1.006 million / $4.024 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 542 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 5,605 tons, 39.0 %
- Belts: 2,717 tons, 18.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,256 tons, 8.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,481 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 151 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 746 tons, 5.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,807 tons, 33.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,636 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,050 tons, 7.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,281 lbs / 11,921 Kg = 39.2 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Stern: 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 15.52 ft / 4.73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 53.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120.7 %
Waterplane Area: 27,113 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 679 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Long Range Radio 25 tons,
Fire Control 250 tons
75 tons crew accommodation
700 tons construction reserve.
if you consider how much space the previous guns took up there might be, im looking at a reconstruction of the Rohan protodreads that would deleat the 8 9" guns midship (yes 8 of them 4 of which are in turret and Barb already) and adding a Q turret to them so their layout would be aBqy. However I think I would need to add a section to them midships most likley.
I don't think the barbettes are necessary for twin 150mms. As far as deskspace, my answer is "probably just enough space". The flush deck will help here. You'll probably only have ~35% of waterline length to fit them, which is somewhere around 43 meters. You'll need 5 or 5.5 meters working circle per mount minimuim, with a total rotational circle of something just a little bit bigger than 5.5 meters. I'm not sure how long your guns are. So if you mounted them all in line (worse case) and wanted each to be able to traverse the full 180 degrees, I'd say you are looking at something around 22 - 25 meters per side to fit them, which ought to have them out of the blast of the main battery. Cramming the 40mm, smaller mgs, and boats in will be a challenge though.
I think these ships have a enough freeboard though that you could still get away with mounting 4 or six guns per side in hull casemates, and then mount maybe 3 deck mounts on deck, to relieve main deck congestion a bit.
A rough sketch of the ship I am not really happy with the 280mm turret size; they are L40's. The 150mm are L55's or perhaps L60's I will see what I end up researching. I think that the 150mm turrets compared to the 280's look oversized. So I am trying to think of what changes to make to get things to look better.
(http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/7782/alfonsoivpelayo.png)
Setting aside the propulsion issue - the hulls are old but reasonably well armored, so I'm not sure whether it's worth the effort or not.
Have you contemplated modifying the Alfonsos to have six twin 250mm in a hexagonal pattern, rather than keeping the 280mm and a 150mm secondary?
Yes the problem is it gets me two slow 250mm armored cruisers from four PDN's. I could do something like trying to fit a triple 250mm in place of the twin 280mm. I would rather keep the 280mm guns but I will think it over.
Michael
It gets you two slow armored cruisers plus whatever you do with the Pelayos. I think the uniform battery of 8x250mm will deter a raider somewhat more than 4x280mm, myself.
As for the Pelayos, the 280mm + 150mm route may be the way to go - the casemated 250mm won't be of a lot of value.
How long are those 250mm guns? A modern 9.2" armed ship might be able to use superior speed operate outside their effective range and pummel ships armed that way...
Well, yeah, perhaps. But the ship could still accomodate a newer set of 250mm/45 or 50 cal twins.
Hey, here's an alternative - design a single 280mm and replace the 250mm twins in the Alfonso. That'll give you 2x2 and 2x1 on the broadside.
If I replace the main guns and engines and add armor, then we have ask why I am not building a new ship? The objective here is to attempt to get a useful escort with a cost of 3 to 5 BP per ship.
As to what the guns are. Looking at the gunnery chart the I had assumed 280mm L40's (1895 tech level) which would put the 250mm secondaries as L45's.
Looking at navweapons.
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_11-40_skc04.htm
It looks like the 280mm could shoot at from 20,000 yards to 28,000 yards depending on date, both assume 30 degree elevation of the weapon. Looking around I have scene all sorts of ranges for 24cm/25cm weapons with a low end of 13,000 yards for a RN weapon @13.5 degrees but same weapon in japanese service with 30 degee elevation shot out to 27,000 yards. Lots of German weapons able to shoot out to about 20,000 yards. So its I think a question of powder charge and elevation with a L45 but shooting out to 30,000 yards with a L50 or L55 isn't going to get to many hits.
Michael
Looking things over I can fit a triple 250mm in place of the twin 280mm. The question is what would the cost be? Doing two end turret to match the wing turrets in armor would weigh 243 tons. I ignore the weapon cost as I am reusing the 250 casement mounts form the other ships. So I would pay 0.243 BP and $0.486 for the weapon reuse?
Resulting in this design, which has about the same broadside as the old design.
QuoteAlfonso IV (refit 2), Iberia Battleship laid down 1899 (Engine 1922)
Displacement:
12,938 t light; 13,661 t standard; 14,386 t normal; 14,966 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
403.87 ft / 403.54 ft x 91.86 ft x 22.64 ft (normal load)
123.10 m / 123.00 m x 28.00 m x 6.90 m
Armament:
6 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x3 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1899 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,299 lbs / 3,311 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 264.80 ft / 80.71 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 138.71 ft / 42.28 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Upper: 4.72" / 120 mm 264.80 ft / 80.71 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 9.06" / 230 mm
2nd: 9.84" / 250 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 9.06" / 230 mm
3rd: 3.94" / 100 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 10.24" / 260 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 22,002 shp / 16,413 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,305 tons
Complement:
656 - 853
Cost:
£1.324 million / $5.295 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 912 tons, 6.3 %
Armour: 5,613 tons, 39.0 %
- Belts: 2,337 tons, 16.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,665 tons, 11.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,481 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 130 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 746 tons, 5.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,375 tons, 37.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,448 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 291 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,231 lbs / 9,630 Kg = 44.5 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Stern: 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 15.52 ft / 4.73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120.7 %
Waterplane Area: 27,113 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 759 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.18
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Long Range Radio 25 tons,
Fire Control 250 tons
16 tons construction reserve.
Any thoughts on the drawing? This assumes 280mm in the main turrets and 150mm in the wing turrets.
(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7782/alfonsoivpelayo.png)
Oh I want to work on a version of the the drawing with the 250mm weapons. Any idea what size I should make the barbettes? I had the 280mm's as a 25' barbette and the 150mm's as 18' (I could have made these smaller I suspect maybe 16'). I looked over the Knowledge Base and didn't see any info on turret sizes for a 10" weapon.
Michael
I think the 150mm turrets are too long. Something like 35' barrel to back end of turret should be enough. Sitting on barbettes they can be shorter too.
As far as barbettes: 17.5 feet internal diameter is perfectly reasonable for twin 150mm. So armored outside diam. or 18 feet is gine. For 250mm: Looking at an internal arrangement drawing of the Tennessee class ACs in Friedman, it seems that the barbettes for their 10" guns were 23 feet in diameter. This seems a reasonable starting point for your 250mm guns. Maybe 22 or 22.5 feet inside rolling diameter?
For your 280mm, 25 feet seems about right.
OK current drawings.
First is the PDN Pre-reuild (280mm 2x2 and 250mm 4x2) and the second a rebuild is with a 280mm and 150mm battery.
I think the best rebuild would be to turn the Alfonso IV class into a semi DN with 280mm 2x2 and 4x1. I could steal the 280's from the Pelayo's and build new turrets. The problem with that choice is I then have no useable battery on the Pelayo's.
Second is to rebuild the Alfonso into a AC by taking the 250mm casement guns from Pelayo then build new triple turrets and drop them in place of the 280's. Resulting in a battery of 250mm 2x3 and 4x2. Then rebuild Pelayo into the mixed 280 and 150 bettery above. Putting the extra 11.1" guns into a coast defense battery some place.
Or I could rebuild all four ships to the 250mm / 150mm design and put the 250's into coast defense battery.
Thoughts?
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7176/alfonsoivprerefit.png)
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7782/alfonsoivpelayo.png)
Mulling this over...
Take Pelayo's 280s and use them to give Alfonso 8x280.
You're taking out Alfonso's 250 twins to do this - why not swap two turrets into each Pelayo for 10x250mm?
You've then got four extra turrets for coastal defences, monitors, or something.
Alfonso's have 4x2 for eight 250mm's, with a total sixteen 250's.
Pelayo's have 6x1 for six 250mm's, with a total of twelve 250's.
So are you suggesting converting the 280mm turret locations on the Pelayo's into a triple 250's with a twin super firing over them or as wing mounts? Let me fool around with the drawing.
Looking things over Pelayo would end up with about 140 feet of space between B and Y barbettes. Anyone have any info on size of machinery space?
Using exactly one example, USS Utah for which Friedman has both a cross section and an inboard profile, I get ~ 4896 sq feet for the boiler rooms, and 2919 sq feet for the machinery space. That works out to about 3.5 sq. feet per SHP.
Boiler room beam is ~ 48 feet, turbine room beam is ~ 44 feet (to give you an idea). Lengths are 102 feet and 69.5 feet respectively.
I wouldn't go by those figures necessarily (it is, after all, just one ship and simplifies quite a bit), but it will give you some idea of feasibility.
Also USS Utah is an older BB and one would expect a later design to be able to pack more machinery power per square foot. I think that the South Dakota's had a very cramped machinery space for example.
Pelayo would have has a total space to work with of...
total 91.5 beam and total 140 of length.
One thing is I am trying to think what to do with a AC only able to do about 20 knots. I can only get about 22 out of the hull per SS, and this requires massive lengthing of the hull (10% total).
Im streaching the Rohinium Protodreads 10% but they will still only make 20 knots... Course im adding another 12/48 to them.
Mike, I mean just swapping in a twin 250 for each former twin 280. No additional turrets or triples involved.
The Pelayos come out as less impressive ships, but at least they have a seven gun (2x2 and 3x1) broadside in theory.
I think this is the final version of the reconstruction for the oldest PDN's.
Remove the 280mm turrets so their guns can be stolen for the Alfonso's, build new triple turret 250mm's in there place from the casement mounts.
Take a pair of 250mm's turrets from the Alfonso's.
Replace the VTE machinery with four 5,500 SHP diesels.
My issues with the re-design.
I suspect that three 250mm's will fit in a barbette that held two 280's; I am not positive
Question on the engines is out there VTE to Diesel along with the issue of engine space for diesels no matter what SS says.
Needs
Will need to design a new triple 250mm L45
Need to research capital ship diesels
The above problems aside I REALLY like the look of the rebuild. It looks
cool...
Michael
(http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6537/pelayopostrefit.png)
QuotePelayo (reconstruction) Rev.C, Iberia Battleship laid down 1897 (Engine 1922)
Displacement:
12,701 t light; 13,312 t standard; 14,386 t normal; 15,246 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
406.87 ft / 403.54 ft x 91.86 ft x 22.64 ft (normal load)
124.01 m / 123.00 m x 28.00 m x 6.90 m
Armament:
6 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x3 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,599 lbs / 2,540 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 98
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 265.78 ft / 81.01 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 137.73 ft / 41.98 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Upper: 8.66" / 220 mm 265.78 ft / 81.01 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 9.84" / 250 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
3rd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 10.24" / 260 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,002 shp / 16,413 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 15,350nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,934 tons
Complement:
656 - 853
Cost:
£1.137 million / $4.548 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 700 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 5,510 tons, 38.3 %
- Belts: 2,721 tons, 18.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,178 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,481 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 130 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 746 tons, 5.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,366 tons, 37.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,685 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 379 tons, 2.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24,420 lbs / 11,077 Kg = 51.2 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Stern: 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 15.27 ft / 4.65 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.5 %
Waterplane Area: 27,113 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 760 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.16
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Long Range Radio 25 tons,
Fire Control 250 tons
Improved Crew Accommodation 75 tons
29 tons construction reserve.
Fixed SS
Quote4 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Doesn't really match the pic. Nice otherwise.
Fixed any other issues?
Interresting rebuilt Mike.
Questions :
1- Are you sure that a rebuilt for a 20yo PDN is realy a good think ?
2- What is the futur job of that ship?
3- Did you reclass her as "Escort Cruiser" ?
4- What is the final cost ?
Jef
1) My goal is if at the end of it I come up with a warship that can at least do the role of a small cruiser in terms of escorting, show the flag, etc and cost less than 5 BP (IE the cost of a new built cruiser) I would call it a win. This ship has a very respectable amount of firepower, ten 250mm guns on a broad side is a nice amount of firepower. Its armor is good, even if its harvey steel instead of krupp cemented armor. The decks will get 50mm or so of improved krupp cemented armor added and the turrets the same. So the ships will be protected vs. anything short of capital ship firepower.
2) See above, convoy escort, second line mission (I could send her to India, Mexico and China as a show the flag and she would still be a respectable amount of firepower. Her one big weakness is that there is NOTHING I can do to increase her speed anymore than I have. Oh well no rebuild is going to be perfect.
3) I think I am going to reclass her as an Crucero Acorazado and break the armored cruiser down into two groups, 1st Class and 2nd Class Armored Cruisers. The new 12" gun AC's become the 1st rate and all the 250mm gun ships become 2nd Class AC's.
4) I will figure that out. I need to figure out the cost to build a new 250mm triple turret for example.
Reconstruction of Pelayo Class Battleship into Armored Cruiser.
Base Reconstruction cost 12,641 t light = 1.26 BP + $3.16
Increase to light displacement 12,641 -> 12,700 = 0.059 BP + $0.059
Old Engines 2,375 tons = 0.356 BP + $0.356 (SCRAP)
New Engines 746 tons = 0.746 BP + $1.492
New Weapons
--New 250mm triple turrets
----564 tons armor = 0.564 BP + $1.128
----358 tons guns (recylced) = 0.0 BP + $0.358
--Moved 250mm twin turrets
----326 tons armor (old armor) 500 (new armor) = 0.174 BP + $0.348 + $0.326 (old turret)
----238 tons guns (recycled) = 0.0 BP + $0.238
--New 150mm single mounts
----93 tons armor = 0.093 BP + $0.186
----103 tons guns = 0.103 BP + $0.206
--New 40mm single mounts
----0 tons armor = 0.0 BP + $0.0
----1 tons guns = 0.001 BP + $0.002
New Armor
--Deck 790 tons = 0.790 BP + $0.790
FC 250 tons = 0.250 BP + $0.250
total 4.25 BP and $8.187
I think I might just do this crazy idea, will have to think it over.
slightly cheaper than my own reconstructions, I would say go for it.
Its right in line with the Reconstructions I have been looking at for all 5 of my Remaining 10" Armed Command Cruisers.
I get a nice slow heavily armed and Armored Cruiser which realisticaly is useful for Convoy Escort and working in defense of the Battle Line Vs Enemy Cruisers and Destroyers. Not a great ship but given my budget restraints and Iberias I think these ships are all worth keeping.
Charles
OK thanks for the feed back everyone. I will work on the Alfonso Reconstruction which will replace the wing 250mm twin turrets with single 280mm guns giving them a uniform broadside of six 280mm guns in four turrets.
Quote... I will work on the Alfonso Reconstruction which will replace the wing 250mm twin turrets with single 280mm guns giving them a uniform broadside of six 280mm guns in four turrets.
With the same FC ;)
Jef
OK here is the rebuild of the Alfonso into a uniform battery BB. Cost would be about the same as the Pelayo.
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1054/alfonsoivpostrefit2.png)
QuoteAlfonso IV (refit 2), Iberia Battleship laid down 1899 (Engine 1922)
Displacement:
12,501 t light; 13,185 t standard; 14,386 t normal; 15,348 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
403.87 ft / 403.54 ft x 91.86 ft x 22.64 ft (normal load)
123.10 m / 123.00 m x 28.00 m x 6.90 m
Armament:
4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns in single mounts, 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1899 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,653 lbs / 3,018 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 264.80 ft / 80.71 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 138.71 ft / 42.28 m 11.52 ft / 3.51 m
Upper: 4.72" / 120 mm 264.80 ft / 80.71 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 6.50" / 165 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 9.84" / 250 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 9.06" / 230 mm
3rd: 3.94" / 100 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 22,002 shp / 16,413 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 17,300nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,163 tons
Complement:
656 - 853
Cost:
£1.241 million / $4.963 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 832 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 5,427 tons, 37.7 %
- Belts: 2,337 tons, 16.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,459 tons, 10.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,481 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 151 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 746 tons, 5.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,105 tons, 35.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,885 tons, 13.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 391 tons, 2.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,436 lbs / 9,723 Kg = 32.0 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Stern: 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 15.52 ft / 4.73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120.7 %
Waterplane Area: 27,113 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 721 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.15
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Long Range Radio 25 tons,
Fire Control 250 tons
115 tons construction reserve.
I'd just recycle the turrets (and barbette+belt armor) and build brand new ships. One pair with 8x280mm and one pair with 8x250mm.
The Alfonsos should be reconstructed 10x250 - just replace the 280mm guns with the smaller ones in the old turret. Get the guns from the Pelayos. Or just place new twin 250mm turrets there.
If you want to keep the Pelayos, reduce armament to just 4x280, perhaps a few extra 6" secondaries, but no additional efforts worth it to install further big guns. I'd scrap them. You'd be left with 4 or 8 twin 280mm turrets and even some belt armor. Use it to construct two slow ships or a single fast one.
Thanks for the input P3D.
I agree that I could reuse the guns and build more effective ships but only get 1 or perhaps 2. Heck I could spend the 12 BP's can get an entire new cruiser thats way more effective. Four ships even if less effective would be more useful to me. Also I like the advantage of having more ships with similiar tactical traits, in this cause two pairs. Besides I like the idea of keeping the rust buckets around
I just have doubts of gutting out a 30-year-old ship and installing extra turrets. Keeping the two Alfonsos with uniform 250mm battery (~3BP each) is fine, but the Pelayos' layout is just suboptimal for reconstruction.