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Main Archive => Navalism 3 Armed Forces => Armed Forces => New Ship Designs => Topic started by: ledeper on December 16, 2009, 03:09:53 PM

Title: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: ledeper on December 16, 2009, 03:09:53 PM
BB 20, Esc Bb laid down 1920

Displacement:
   46.754 t light; 49.063 t standard; 52.336 t normal; 54.954 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   819,01 ft / 814,96 ft x 108,27 ft x 31,99 ft (normal load)
   249,63 m / 248,40 m x 33,00 m  x 9,75 m

Armament:
      6 - 15,94" / 405 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2.026,91lbs / 919,39kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 15,94" / 405 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2.026,91lbs / 919,39kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21.928 lbs / 9.947 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   459,32 ft / 140,00 m   15,78 ft / 4,81 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   459,32 ft / 140,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,97" / 50 mm   660,43 ft / 201,30 m   29,72 ft / 9,06 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   3rd:   2,95" / 75 mm   1,97" / 50 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 5,91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 13,78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 135.192 shp / 100.853 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9.500nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.891 tons

Complement:
   1.729 - 2.249

Cost:
   £10,874 million / $43,497 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.741 tons, 5,2 %
   Armour: 18.676 tons, 35,7 %
      - Belts: 5.394 tons, 10,3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.430 tons, 2,7 %
      - Armament: 4.059 tons, 7,8 %
      - Armour Deck: 7.378 tons, 14,1 %
      - Conning Tower: 415 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 4.727 tons, 9,0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 19.860 tons, 37,9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.582 tons, 10,7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 1,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     68.650 lbs / 31.139 Kg = 33,9 x 15,9 " / 405 mm shells or 10,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 6,9 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 17,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,08

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,649
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,53 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Stern:      20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,86 ft / 6,36 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,5 %
   Waterplane Area: 67.530 Square feet or 6.274 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 219 lbs/sq ft or 1.069 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,06
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Armor disposition as in Ocean class
Misc Weight:
2x FC :500t
L/RW/L:25 t
Seendes augen :25 t
Flag faciliteies:50 t
Starshells :50 t
Reserve:100t
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Sachmle on December 16, 2009, 03:31:12 PM
You did that turret thing again w/ the twin where you listed them as "On side, raised" instead of "On centerline, raised".
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: ledeper on December 16, 2009, 03:38:40 PM
GRRRRRRRRR: :D :D :D

BB 20, Esc Bb laid down 1920

Displacement:
   46.754 t light; 49.063 t standard; 52.336 t normal; 54.954 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   819,01 ft / 814,96 ft x 108,27 ft x 31,99 ft (normal load)
   249,63 m / 248,40 m x 33,00 m  x 9,75 m

Armament:
     6 - 15,94" / 405 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2.026,91lbs / 919,39kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     4 - 15,94" / 405 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2.026,91lbs / 919,39kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     16 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     6 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21.928 lbs / 9.947 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   459,32 ft / 140,10 m   15,78 ft / 4,81 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   459,32 ft / 140,10 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length
   

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,97" / 50 mm   660,43 ft / 201,30 m   29,72 ft / 9,06 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   3rd:   2,95" / 75 mm   1,97" / 50 mm            -

  - Armour deck: 5,91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 13,78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 135.192 shp / 100.853 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9.500nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.891 tons

Complement:
   1.729 - 2.249

Cost:
   £10,874 million / $43,497 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.741 tons, 5,2 %
   Armour: 18.676 tons, 35,7 %
      - Belts: 5.394 tons, 10,3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.430 tons, 2,7 %
      - Armament: 4.059 tons, 7,8 %
      - Armour Deck: 7.378 tons, 14,1 %
      - Conning Tower: 415 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 4.727 tons, 9,0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 19.860 tons, 37,9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.582 tons, 10,7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 1,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     68.650 lbs / 31.139 Kg = 33,9 x 15,9 " / 405 mm shells or 10,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 6,9 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 17,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,08

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,649
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,53 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Stern:      20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,86 ft / 6,36 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,5 %
   Waterplane Area: 67.530 Square feet or 6.274 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 219 lbs/sq ft or 1.069 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,06
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Armor disposition as in Ocean class
Misc Weight:
2x FC :500t
L/RW/L:25 t
Seendes augen :25 t
Flag faciliteies:50 t
Starshells :50 t
Reserve:100t
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: TexanCowboy on December 16, 2009, 05:39:57 PM
You need cruisers. A lot of them
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Tanthalas on December 16, 2009, 06:42:52 PM
Quote from: TexanCowboy on December 16, 2009, 05:39:57 PM
You need cruisers. A lot of them

Cruisers are so so BORING though... BBs are alot more fun to build
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Sachmle on December 16, 2009, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: TexanCowboy on December 16, 2009, 05:39:57 PM
You need cruisers. A lot of them

Nah...he lets the Bavarian's bring the cruisers...and the Dutch bring the MiniLightCruisers, er Detroyers.
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Tanthalas on December 16, 2009, 07:17:08 PM
Quote from: Sachmle on December 16, 2009, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: TexanCowboy on December 16, 2009, 05:39:57 PM
You need cruisers. A lot of them

Nah...he lets the Bavarian's bring the cruisers...and the Dutch bring the MiniLightCruisers, er Detroyers.

... you know my DDs kind of resemble that remark
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: ledeper on December 21, 2009, 11:13:36 AM
The 18" option:

BB 21, Esc Bb laid down 1921

Displacement:
   48.620 t light; 51.257 t standard; 54.594 t normal; 57.264 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   819,01 ft / 814,96 ft x 108,27 ft x 31,99 ft (normal load)
   249,63 m / 248,40 m x 33,00 m  x 9,75 m

Armament:
      9 - 17,91" / 455 mm guns (3x3 guns), 2.874,11lbs / 1.303,67kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 27.526 lbs / 12.486 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   508,53 ft / 155,00 m   15,78 ft / 4,81 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   508,53 ft / 155,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,97" / 50 mm   660,43 ft / 201,30 m   29,72 ft / 9,06 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   0,67" / 17 mm   1,97" / 50 mm            -
   3rd:   0,59" / 15 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 5,91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 13,78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 140.221 shp / 104.605 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9.500nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6.007 tons

Complement:
   1.785 - 2.321

Cost:
   £13,409 million / $53,637 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3.441 tons, 6,3 %
   Armour: 19.062 tons, 34,9 %
      - Belts: 5.856 tons, 10,7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.430 tons, 2,6 %
      - Armament: 3.780 tons, 6,9 %
      - Armour Deck: 7.568 tons, 13,9 %
      - Conning Tower: 427 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 4.829 tons, 8,8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 20.539 tons, 37,6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.974 tons, 10,9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 1,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     64.893 lbs / 29.435 Kg = 22,6 x 17,9 " / 455 mm shells or 9,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 7,0 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 17,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,74
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,677
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,53 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Stern:      20,77 ft / 6,33 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,86 ft / 6,36 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95,4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153,5 %
   Waterplane Area: 69.275 Square feet or 6.436 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 222 lbs/sq ft or 1.083 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,03
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Armor disposition as in Ocean class
Misc Weight:
2x FC :500t
L/RW/L:25 t
Seendes augen :25 t
Flag faciliteies:50 t
Starshells :50 t
Reserve:100t
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Borys on December 21, 2009, 12:07:17 PM
Ahoj!
I think that such guns are deserving of a better fire platform than 52% ... and my general feeling about this ship is that it would be much better with one or two knots less, but thicker armour.
Borys
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: ledeper on December 21, 2009, 12:39:48 PM
Admittedly but I seriously doubt that I ever will build ships with a 455mm gun,I think ill rather improve my 405 mm gun to a 405mm cal 55 gun.
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: TexanCowboy on December 27, 2009, 10:35:35 AM
BUILD CRUISERS!!! BUILD CRUISERS!!!

A 16'' L55 would wear very quickly, something like 150-175 shots per barrel.
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Borys on December 27, 2009, 12:58:36 PM
Ahoj!
Quote from: TexanCowboy on December 27, 2009, 10:35:35 AM
BUILD CRUISERS!!! BUILD CRUISERS!!!

A 16'' L55 would wear very quickly, something like 150-175 shots per barrel.
Design the gun for quick barrel/liner change. That's what the Italians did in OTL.

Borys
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Tanthalas on December 27, 2009, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: ledeper on December 21, 2009, 12:39:48 PM
Admittedly but I seriously doubt that I ever will build ships with a 455mm gun,I think ill rather improve my 405 mm gun to a 405mm cal 55 gun.

thats what im planing to do with Rohan

Quote from: Borys on December 27, 2009, 12:58:36 PM
Design the gun for quick barrel/liner change. That's what the Italians did in OTL.
Borys

Asfaloth & Maethor 8X15.5/45 1951 pound shell
Dagor & Hathel 8X15.5/50 2200 pound shell
Draug & Ohtar 8X15.5/55 2500 pound shell
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Borys on December 27, 2009, 01:46:29 PM
Ahoj!
Quote from: Tanthalas on December 27, 2009, 01:13:07 PM
Dagor & Hathel 8X15.5/50 2200 pound shell
Draug & Ohtar 8X15.5/55 2500 pound shell
Hmm ... not too heavy? I see 2200 lbs as fitting for a 16", and the 2500 lbs as appropriate for 16,5" or so.
Borys
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: TexanCowboy on December 27, 2009, 01:47:49 PM
US super-heavy 2,700 shell. It can be done, but with a corresponding loss in MV and, therefore, penetration.
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Borys on December 27, 2009, 01:51:09 PM
Quote from: TexanCowboy on December 27, 2009, 01:47:49 PM
US super-heavy 2,700 shell. It can be done, but with a corresponding loss in MV and, therefore, penetration.
I know that it can be done. But with battle range of 15K yards, there is no reason to do it. But then again, belt pentration of the USN superheavy was simillar to 15" weapons, so at this point in time it might simply be a waste of tonnage ...
Borys
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Tanthalas on December 27, 2009, 02:17:15 PM
Quote from: Borys on December 27, 2009, 01:46:29 PM
Ahoj!
Quote from: Tanthalas on December 27, 2009, 01:13:07 PM
Dagor & Hathel 8X15.5/50 2200 pound shell
Draug & Ohtar 8X15.5/55 2500 pound shell
Hmm ... not too heavy? I see 2200 lbs as fitting for a 16", and the 2500 lbs as appropriate for 16,5" or so.
Borys

the 15.5/45 is the Italian 15/50 the rest are averages drawn from various 16/50 and the Italian 15/50.  I dont htink ght 15.5/50 is to heavy, and the 15.5/55 is strictly speculative atm.
Title: Re: Design Bureau Hamburg Bb project
Post by: Borys on December 27, 2009, 02:27:14 PM
Ahoj!
I expressly did NOT mention the 15"/45 :)

Apart from the oddball Vickers designed Russian 16" (of unproven utility), the "first generation" (RN, USN, IJN) sixteen-inchers had 2050/2100/2200 lbs shells.
Borys