QuoteBuhauyichum, RRC Unsinkable Class laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Armoured Casemate Ship
Displacement:
40,840 t light; 42,866 t standard; 45,257 t normal; 47,170 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
800.00 ft / 800.00 ft x 100.00 ft (Bulges 110.00 ft) x 30.00 ft (normal load)
243.84 m / 243.84 m x 30.48 m (Bulges 33.53 m) x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in broadside mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
32 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (16x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 19,544 lbs / 8,865 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 311.00 ft / 94.79 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
79.00 ft / 24.08 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Main Belt covers 79 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.50" / 38 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm -
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 79,866 shp / 59,580 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,305 tons
Complement:
1,550 - 2,016
Cost:
£7.087 million / $28.350 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,443 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 16,518 tons, 36.5 %
- Belts: 9,025 tons, 19.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 833 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 3,140 tons, 6.9 %
- Armour Deck: 3,247 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Tower: 274 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,976 tons, 6.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,317 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,418 tons, 9.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 586 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
78,221 lbs / 35,480 Kg = 38.2 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 11.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 18.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.63
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.27 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Mid (50 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Stern: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Average freeboard: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 215.7 %
Waterplane Area: 58,511 Square feet or 5,436 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 205 lbs/sq ft or 1,001 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Ahem.... The Reformist China's studies into large ships. These ships are only written down on paper. No real effort has been made to convince the Repbulican Sector of building these ships, although that might change.
Well...
QuoteMain belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spac
and
Quote79.00 ft / 24.08 m Unarmoured ends
Maybe the result of you altering the hull form?
Yea, I forgot to modify the armour after I changed the hull form. Here's the corrected one.
QuoteBuhauyichum, RRC Unsinkable Class laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Armoured Casemate Ship
Displacement:
43,709 t light; 45,796 t standard; 48,312 t normal; 50,325 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
840.00 ft / 840.00 ft x 100.00 ft (Bulges 110.00 ft) x 30.00 ft (normal load)
256.03 m / 256.03 m x 30.48 m (Bulges 33.53 m) x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in broadside mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
32 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (16x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 19,544 lbs / 8,865 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.50" / 38 mm 600.00 ft / 182.88 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm -
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 95,140 shp / 70,974 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,529 tons
Complement:
1,629 - 2,118
Cost:
£7.415 million / $29.660 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,443 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 18,038 tons, 37.3 %
- Belts: 10,171 tons, 21.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 999 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 3,140 tons, 6.5 %
- Armour Deck: 3,442 tons, 7.1 %
- Conning Tower: 286 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 3,545 tons, 7.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,224 tons, 39.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,603 tons, 9.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 459 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
83,614 lbs / 37,927 Kg = 40.8 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 12.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 18.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.55
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.610
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Mid (50 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Stern: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Average freeboard: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 217.5 %
Waterplane Area: 62,012 Square feet or 5,761 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 994 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The vertical protection is more or less useless against main caliber shells.
Quote from: P3D on November 20, 2008, 09:14:49 PM
The vertical protection is more or less useless against main caliber shells.
I think its suposed to be for reduction of a NS Battlecruiser to scrap (my Mk1s also mount an 8" upper belt and 12" main belt)
Logi, the freeboard is a good two metres higher than necessary. Drop it to somewhere between six and seven metres and you should have decent seakeeping, while freeing up considerable hull strength for use in upgrading protection.
Six inch and five inch batteries are unnecessary if both used for anti-surface work - go for a single caliber, and avoid "broadside" mounts.
You have about ten times more anti-aircraft guns than is warranted for the period.
What would it cost to build the port/slip/dock facilities necessary to support this vessel?
@ TRD
As such that Macau is a Type 3 Port, it would take $15 and 1 BP to upgrade it to Port 4.
Macau has a Type 3 Drydock, requiring $6 and 1 BP to upgrade it to a Type 4 Drydock.
So all in all, China would need to spend $21 and 2 BP to builkd the ports/dock facilities necessary to support this vessel.
@P3D
I have no clue how to calculate sloped armour. I admit your point though. Prehaps you could show me how one might go about designing a ship with sloped armour?
@Tan
This ship was really a design in attempt to see how the 16"/42 guns would work on a ship since the guns would be completed in 2~3 years. I was not acutally thinking of any ship while designing it except for the French Ultra BB and the Baltic BC (I used them as guidelines). It just so happens that I split the armour like you ;). Now if it were to be built, I would have to take a look at comtemporary NS ships.
To calculate sloped armor weight, the thickness have to be divided by cos(inclination). A 13" plate inclined at 10* has the equivalent LOS thickness of 13.2".
Inclined armor and bulges means that a significant portion of the ship's buoyancy is vulnerable even to 6" hits.
Average freeboard should be ~21-22. Let the freeboard be 20'. With 8' decks you need 4' to the waterline and another 6-8' below - but that's too little so you might want to extend protection upward. So 19' belt armor is reasonable. However, in this case, you need no upper belt, especially as you have no casemated guns.
Forget end belt and the 3 different small-caliber guns.
Somewhat like this?
QuoteBuhauyichum, RRC Unsinkable Class laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
42,793 t light; 44,782 t standard; 47,520 t normal; 49,710 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
840.00 ft / 840.00 ft x 100.00 ft (Bulges 110.00 ft) x 30.00 ft (normal load)
256.03 m / 256.03 m x 30.48 m (Bulges 33.53 m) x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18,328 lbs / 8,313 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 18.3" / 465 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.50" / 38 mm 600.00 ft / 182.88 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 142,391 shp / 106,224 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,928 tons
Complement:
1,609 - 2,092
Cost:
£7.573 million / $30.290 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,291 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 16,119 tons, 33.9 %
- Belts: 9,081 tons, 19.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 999 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 2,347 tons, 4.9 %
- Armour Deck: 3,410 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Tower: 283 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 5,305 tons, 11.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,279 tons, 38.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,727 tons, 9.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 799 tons, 1.7 %
- 250t FCS
- 25t Long-Range Wireless
- 25t Radar
- 4t Torpedo
- 75t Medical Facilties
- 100t Flag Facilties
- 40t Climatization
- 200t Blige Pumps
- 70t Construction Reserve
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57,158 lbs / 25,926 Kg = 27.9 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 8.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 18.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.5 %
Waterplane Area: 61,436 Square feet or 5,708 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 212 lbs/sq ft or 1,034 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.12
- Longitudinal: 0.96
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
The ship has a 15" belt inclined at 25 degrees.
You might want to sketch the cross-section of the ship to see if it is possible. The only problem with 25* inclination that you ship might sink without any penetrating hit due to the flooding of one side. Also, making 18" face hardened armor is IMO more than what RRC is capable of.
I didn't think 25 degrees inclination was that big a problem. If need to be, I'll fix it to 20 degrees.
For the 18" face hardened armour - its acutally 15" armour after an inclination of 25 degrees. It is shown as 18" just to show the weight of such armour. Unless I read your passage about inclined armour wrong?
Limit inclination to 15*, or if the plate is really so high, then to 10*. Deck armor is marginal.
ah, then 15 dgrees it is.
QuoteBuhauyichum, RRC Unsinkable Class laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
41,454 t light; 43,414 t standard; 46,097 t normal; 48,244 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
840.00 ft / 840.00 ft x 100.00 ft (Bulges 110.00 ft) x 30.00 ft (normal load)
256.03 m / 256.03 m x 30.48 m (Bulges 33.53 m) x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18,328 lbs / 8,313 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.5" / 394 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.50" / 38 mm 600.00 ft / 182.88 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 158,312 shp / 118,101 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,830 tons
Complement:
1,572 - 2,044
Cost:
£7.638 million / $30.553 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,291 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 14,736 tons, 32.0 %
- Belts: 7,692 tons, 16.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 999 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 2,415 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 3,353 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 277 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 5,898 tons, 12.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,730 tons, 38.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,643 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 799 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
52,103 lbs / 23,634 Kg = 25.4 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 7.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 18.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.582
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.7 %
Waterplane Area: 60,411 Square feet or 5,612 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 207 lbs/sq ft or 1,008 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.06
- Longitudinal: 0.97
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Heavy Cruiser Concept
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
18,398 t light; 19,169 t standard; 21,755 t normal; 23,824 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 80.10 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 24.41 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 5,926 lbs / 2,688 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 321.00 ft / 97.84 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 101,498 shp / 75,718 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,002nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,655 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
895 - 1,164
Cost:
£2.739 million / $10.957 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 741 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 4,758 tons, 21.9 %
- Belts: 2,718 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 466 tons, 2.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,490 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Tower: 84 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 4,408 tons, 20.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,192 tons, 37.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,357 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,334 lbs / 11,945 Kg = 19.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.549
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.5 %
Waterplane Area: 40,280 Square feet or 3,742 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 688 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Range 1,055nm at 30.00 kts
Range 6,177nm at 15.00 kts
250 FCS
50 Radar
25 Wireless
25 Flag Facilities
The Cruiser is very.... Swiss.
Like the Swiss, I'm a speed manic ;) I could speeze a bit more speed out of the design, but I decided not to as it significantly lowers performance.
Quote from: guinness on November 24, 2008, 08:14:43 PM
The Cruiser is very.... Swiss.
its nice but dosnt have enough guns...
*silences Tan*
::)
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
18,265 t light; 19,055 t standard; 21,345 t normal; 23,177 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 80.10 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 24.41 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
9 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 6,428 lbs / 2,915 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 321.00 ft / 97.84 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 99,883 shp / 74,513 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,535nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,122 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
882 - 1,147
Cost:
£2.737 million / $10.947 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 803 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 4,917 tons, 23.0 %
- Belts: 2,717 tons, 12.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 641 tons, 3.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,476 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Tower: 83 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 4,053 tons, 19.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,191 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,080 tons, 14.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,270 lbs / 11,916 Kg = 39.5 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.3 %
Waterplane Area: 39,892 Square feet or 3,706 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 693 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Range 1,111nm at 30.00 kts
Range 6,507nm at 15.00 kts
I noticed that the previous design had over 20,000shp per shaft as a result this is the converted version (engine 1916)
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
18,694 t light; 19,463 t standard; 21,662 t normal; 23,422 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 80.10 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 24.41 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 5,926 lbs / 2,688 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 321.00 ft / 97.84 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 115,089 shp / 85,856 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,002nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,959 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
892 - 1,160
Cost:
£2.808 million / $11.231 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 741 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 4,754 tons, 21.9 %
- Belts: 2,717 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 466 tons, 2.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,487 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Tower: 84 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 4,670 tons, 21.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,229 tons, 38.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,968 tons, 13.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,087 lbs / 11,379 Kg = 18.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.547
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.6 %
Waterplane Area: 40,192 Square feet or 3,734 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 692 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Range 1,055nm at 30.00 kts
Range 6,177nm at 15.00 kts
Btw: Can construction begin before the engine has been developed? Where one pauses construction of the ship to wait for the technology to be completed?
Engines go in very early in construction, so you have to have the aproprita tech to start construction. while your 4X14" ships are faster than my 6X16" ships were they to face my 6X14" ships I feal they would be at a great disadvantage in the armor catagory (they are tinclads while my 6X14" ships are BCs or Pocket fast BBs). Personaly I just refuse to build tinclads, and I dont personaly feal that 4X14" is suficiant in the gun catagory, perhaps consider 6X11-12" as a raider type ship
Quote from: Logi on November 24, 2008, 08:49:17 PM
Guangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1916)
They are both too slow and over-armoured. Reduce armour a bit, and you can increase speed by 2-3 knot and equip her with 38cm guns instead.
And the fact that their belts do not protect all of their magazines are a problem...
For exampel:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2987.0
@Korpen
Here's a modified design. I thought I covered all the magazines but apparently it didn't.
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
18,696 t light; 19,537 t standard; 21,741 t normal; 23,505 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 80.10 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 24.41 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
4 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 7,188 lbs / 3,260 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 460.00 ft / 140.21 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 1.00" / 25 mm 261.00 ft / 79.55 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 460.00 ft / 140.21 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 131,008 shp / 97,732 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 10,002nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,968 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
894 - 1,163
Cost:
£3.132 million / $12.529 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 899 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 3,514 tons, 16.2 %
- Belts: 1,437 tons, 6.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 503 tons, 2.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,490 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Tower: 84 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 5,316 tons, 24.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,668 tons, 39.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,045 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,095 lbs / 8,661 Kg = 11.3 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.549
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.6 %
Waterplane Area: 40,267 Square feet or 3,741 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 728 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.07
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Range 1,055nm at 30.00 kts
Range 6,177nm at 15.00 kts
@Tan
Look at the first design on my previous post; Its a 9x11 version running at 30 kts. That's your raider-type ship answer. THe 4x14 ship was meant to counter your 6x12 ships but apparently it works against your 6x16 ships too. As for your 6x14 ships, my 4x14 ship runs a full 4kts faster. They aren't inteneded to face off with BCs or BBs but get away quickly.
here would be the final evolution of the 6X14" program (should I choose to stay with it) also the 6X12" ships are limited by the 20k per shaft limit (they can be a full 5 knots faster in an unlimited form)
USNSS Inflexible (Mk4 final), USNS Battlecruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
24,000 t light; 25,066 t standard; 27,649 t normal; 29,715 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
719.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
219.15 m / 213.36 m x 28.04 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
20 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (10x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
2 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm guns (4 mounts), 4.00lbs / 1.81kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 9,027 lbs / 4,094 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 26.10 ft / 7.96 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 5.00" / 127 mm 5.00" / 127 mm -
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 103,535 shp / 77,237 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,649 tons
Complement:
1,071 - 1,393
Cost:
£3.809 million / $15.237 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,128 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 8,249 tons, 29.8 %
- Belts: 3,696 tons, 13.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 608 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 1,325 tons, 4.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,383 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Tower: 236 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,857 tons, 14.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,366 tons, 37.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,649 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,706 lbs / 16,196 Kg = 26.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.501
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.56 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m aft of break)
- Mid (70 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 20.50 ft / 6.25 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.6 %
Waterplane Area: 42,943 Square feet or 3,990 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 166 lbs/sq ft or 812 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc. Weight: 400 tons
250 tons FC
25 tons Wireless
25 tons Flag Facilities
50 tons Radar instalation
25 tons Crew Comfort
25 tons Reserved
TBH while faster the 4X14" ships would have little chioice but to run away from the heavier armor and firepower that the 6X14" ships bring to the frey.
these ships are intended to be imune to their own fire at resonable ranges, and honestly pull it off rather well, while they should be capable of outruning most ships of similar tonage.
Modified Version at similar tonnage
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
23,601 t light; 24,661 t standard; 27,176 t normal; 29,189 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 80.10 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 24.41 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
4 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
24 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (12x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (4x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 9,068 lbs / 4,113 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 460.00 ft / 140.21 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 261.00 ft / 79.55 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 460.00 ft / 140.21 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 149,603 shp / 111,604 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 10,093nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,528 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
1,057 - 1,375
Cost:
£3.823 million / $15.291 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,134 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 6,342 tons, 23.3 %
- Belts: 4,156 tons, 15.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 599 tons, 2.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,490 tons, 5.5 %
- Conning Tower: 97 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 6,071 tons, 22.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,755 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,575 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,843 lbs / 10,815 Kg = 11.6 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.89
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.549
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Stern: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Average freeboard: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.0 %
Waterplane Area: 40,267 Square feet or 3,741 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 763 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Range 867nm at 32.00 kts
Range 7,248nm at 14.00 kts
Looks to me like this thread is suffering from "Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces"-itis. :)
Ugh.... Damn changing spaces >:(
Here's the corrected version.
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
23,601 t light; 24,661 t standard; 27,176 t normal; 29,189 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 80.10 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 24.41 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
4 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
24 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (12x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (4x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 9,068 lbs / 4,113 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 493.00 ft / 150.27 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 228.00 ft / 69.49 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 493.00 ft / 150.27 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.10" / 53 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 149,603 shp / 111,604 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 10,093nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,528 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
1,057 - 1,375
Cost:
£3.823 million / $15.291 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,134 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 6,290 tons, 23.1 %
- Belts: 4,029 tons, 14.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 599 tons, 2.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,564 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Tower: 97 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 6,071 tons, 22.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,808 tons, 36.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,575 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,948 lbs / 10,863 Kg = 11.7 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.89
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.549
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Stern: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Average freeboard: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.0 %
Waterplane Area: 40,267 Square feet or 3,741 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 768 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Range 867nm at 32.00 kts
Range 7,248nm at 15.00 kts
Similar design, reduced tonnage
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
20,067 t light; 21,019 t standard; 23,186 t normal; 24,919 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
729.47 ft / 721.00 ft x 80.10 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
222.34 m / 219.76 m x 24.41 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 8,670 lbs / 3,933 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 472.00 ft / 143.87 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 237.00 ft / 72.24 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
12.00 ft / 3.66 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 105,947 shp / 79,036 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,900 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
939 - 1,221
Cost:
£3.283 million / $13.131 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,084 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 4,685 tons, 20.2 %
- Belts: 2,486 tons, 10.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 602 tons, 2.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,508 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 88 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 4,601 tons, 19.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,398 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,119 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,410 lbs / 11,526 Kg = 18.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.562
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Stern: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Average freeboard: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177.8 %
Waterplane Area: 40,763 Square feet or 3,787 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 762 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Warning!
QuoteMain belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
*runs away*
I sometimes get such a warning after fiddling with a design - it often is a case of a foot or two.
Borys
Yes. With adjusting the design, it is something that you can easily forget about. I've learned to check the belt after all changes I make to the hull and speed...
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
20,075 t light; 21,027 t standard; 23,194 t normal; 24,928 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
729.47 ft / 721.00 ft x 80.10 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
222.34 m / 219.76 m x 24.41 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 8,670 lbs / 3,933 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 473.00 ft / 144.17 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 238.00 ft / 72.54 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
10.00 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 105,978 shp / 79,060 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,901 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
939 - 1,221
Cost:
£3.283 million / $13.133 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,084 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 4,690 tons, 20.2 %
- Belts: 2,492 tons, 10.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 602 tons, 2.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,509 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 88 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 4,602 tons, 19.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,399 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,119 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,425 lbs / 11,533 Kg = 18.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.562
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Stern: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Average freeboard: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177.8 %
Waterplane Area: 40,771 Square feet or 3,788 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 762 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Was fiddling around with the tonnage. I was missed 0.72 ft :-[
Impressive speed for a coal-burner!
A not unreasonable AC ...
Borys
China has LOTS of people, if the black gang pops off they'll just find more. :D
It'll have to do until China establishes a stable oil route
Quote from: Logi on November 29, 2008, 02:11:44 PM
It'll have to do until China establishes a stable oil route
well first they will have to find someone willing to sell them oil... (not as easy as it sounds belive me)
Ah, you point out one of my main problems ;)
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
18,344 t light; 19,258 t standard; 21,327 t normal; 22,982 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
728.28 ft / 721.00 ft x 80.10 ft x 23.50 ft (normal load)
221.98 m / 219.76 m x 24.41 m x 7.16 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 8,670 lbs / 3,933 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 425.00 ft / 129.54 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 276.00 ft / 84.12 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 76,791 shp / 57,286 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,724 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
882 - 1,147
Cost:
£2.937 million / $11.748 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,084 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 4,541 tons, 21.3 %
- Belts: 2,392 tons, 11.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 575 tons, 2.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,491 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Tower: 83 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,335 tons, 15.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,084 tons, 42.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,983 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,941 lbs / 12,220 Kg = 19.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 174.1 %
Waterplane Area: 40,305 Square feet or 3,744 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 766 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.09
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Aye.... forgot to check the shp limit again...
Why such long legs? Where is China planing to go?
Ummmm.... secret ;)
besides; It doesn't have THAT long of legs, it can only go 1059nm at 28 kts
I've sailed half my fleet to the Philipines and back, and another group to France and I only have 7500nm @ 12kts...You have more than that and haven't left the S China Sea for 10yrs.
How much does that 8000@12 become if the ship is chasing enemy cruisers, running around the South China Sea at 24+ knots?
Maybe high speed raids against the Pilpinas? Singapore? Riuku Islands? Yellow Sea?
NOTE: While I was typing this post Logi posted his reply.
Borys
To answer your question, at 24 kts, the range become 1619nm. Not a whole lot... Usually, such long legs would be used to escort important convoys or perform high-speed raids.
NOTE: China one has one collier. (meaning it can't refuel as often)
So perhaps you legs aren't that long, mine are just short...hmmm.
Something to thing about indeed.
I think Persia would be willing to sell oil to RRC.
And cut ship length to fit drydock.
Wasn't China using 13" guns btw?
Quote from: P3D on November 29, 2008, 03:21:16 PM
I think Persia would be willing to sell oil to RRC.
And cut ship length to fit drydock.
Wasn't China using 13" guns btw?
Good to see someone is on the ball today...you're probably right on the 1st one, and right on 2 and 3
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
18,120 t light; 19,030 t standard; 21,079 t normal; 22,718 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 713.72 ft x 79.30 ft x 23.70 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 217.54 m x 24.17 m x 7.22 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 8,670 lbs / 3,933 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 424.00 ft / 129.24 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 277.00 ft / 84.43 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
12.72 ft / 3.88 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 76,415 shp / 57,005 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,688 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
874 - 1,137
Cost:
£2.922 million / $11.689 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,084 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 4,505 tons, 21.4 %
- Belts: 2,386 tons, 11.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 575 tons, 2.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,461 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Tower: 82 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,318 tons, 15.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,914 tons, 42.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,958 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,095 lbs / 11,837 Kg = 19.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.72 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.2 %
Waterplane Area: 39,499 Square feet or 3,670 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 762 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.11
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ship now fits in drydocks
Did China not have any 14" guns? If not....
QuoteGuangdong, RRC Province Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
17,138 t light; 17,933 t standard; 19,922 t normal; 21,514 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 713.72 ft x 79.30 ft x 22.40 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 217.54 m x 24.17 m x 6.83 m
Armament:
6 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,098.50lbs / 498.27kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 7,029 lbs / 3,188 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 406.00 ft / 123.75 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 295.00 ft / 89.92 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
12.72 ft / 3.88 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 74,022 shp / 55,221 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,581 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
837 - 1,089
Cost:
£2.601 million / $10.402 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 879 tons, 4.4 %
Armour: 4,425 tons, 22.2 %
- Belts: 2,356 tons, 11.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 528 tons, 2.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,461 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 79 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,214 tons, 16.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,320 tons, 41.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,785 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,950 lbs / 12,224 Kg = 24.5 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 14.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.72 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 179.8 %
Waterplane Area: 39,499 Square feet or 3,670 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 720 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.04
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
My take on Tan's fast battleship. In the effort of designing this ship to be 30 000 tons, I wasted about 2~3 000 tons on fuel just to meet the standard. I posted this design here, because I felt it would be rude to do so in his thread.
The engine specs are assuming the 1916 engines limit is 40 000 shp per shaft.
QuoteRRC Hong Kong, RRC Fast Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
30,000 t light; 31,536 t standard; 35,819 t normal; 39,246 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 95.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 28.96 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
24 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (12x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 14,484 lbs / 6,570 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 266.00 ft / 81.08 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 144,268 shp / 107,624 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 20,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,710 tons
Complement:
1,301 - 1,692
Cost:
£6.042 million / $24.170 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,811 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 8,917 tons, 24.9 %
- Belts: 5,410 tons, 15.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,519 tons, 4.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,871 tons, 5.2 %
- Conning Tower: 117 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 5,375 tons, 15.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,312 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,819 tons, 16.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 586 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44,241 lbs / 20,067 Kg = 26.2 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.610
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Stern: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Average freeboard: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 199.9 %
Waterplane Area: 50,570 Square feet or 4,698 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 866 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
this is Bad (very very bad imho) that translates to literaly any damage and the ship is limited to end on fire. While im not one to tell others what to build i would personaly consider widening her out a bit more, or perhaps lowering the freeboard a bit (I know it will play hell with your seakeaping). Personaly id try to get nothing over a .75 at the highest
OH and 20K at 12kts is a little extream I would think (if you are at 60% fuel i bet she gets preaty livley though)
With the 13" gun, you could use the Italian 320mm as reference for older versions, and the French 330mm as reference for new.
Borys
I am repeating myself on the belt. Covers everything but protects nothing against high caliber guns. Freeboard is too high. You don't really need to be able to go round the globe on one tank either.
RRC plan on converting the coastal battleship, Shengzi, into a battlecarrier. The waterline was changed, bow and amidship lengthened, engines changed, and back half of the shiptorn out and replaced with a semi-flight deck. Purpose of this reconstruction is to test the pausibilty of a battlecarrier. If it indeed proves useful, the RRC may consider plans for carriers. If not... well...
QuoteQ H Shengzi, Middle Kingdom Coastal Battleship laid down 1902 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
13,697 t light; 14,171 t standard; 14,930 t normal; 15,537 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
559.38 ft / 559.38 ft x 88.58 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
170.50 m / 170.50 m x 27.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
2 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,096.51lbs / 497.37kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
10 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 2,991 lbs / 1,357 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
14 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 98.43 ft / 30.00 m 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
67.26 ft / 20.50 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 330.54 ft / 100.75 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 330.54 ft / 100.75 m 13.52 ft / 4.12 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
3rd: 1.57" / 40 mm 1.57" / 40 mm -
4th: 1.57" / 40 mm 1.57" / 40 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,159 shp / 17,277 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,366 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
674 - 877
Cost:
£0.936 million / $3.743 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 374 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 5,003 tons, 33.5 %
- Belts: 2,194 tons, 14.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 325 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 393 tons, 2.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,988 tons, 13.3 %
- Conning Tower: 103 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,016 tons, 6.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,328 tons, 35.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,233 tons, 8.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,976 tons, 13.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,456 lbs / 12,454 Kg = 25.0 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.15
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.47
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.536
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.26 ft / 7.70 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
- Stern: 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
- Average freeboard: 17.94 ft / 5.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.4 %
Waterplane Area: 34,122 Square feet or 3,170 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 586 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
the 14 torpedo tubes are all broadside
Misc Weight:
105t on whatever it was used on before
250t on semi-flight deck (steel)
1621t on plane space.
Wasting a perfectly good coastal BB on a job for which you could just as easily use and old cruiser.
Will get to fixing the above design when I have time.
My Attempt at a battleship. The L:B ratio and gun arrangement is based on the USS New York.
QuoteCanton, RRC Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
36,582 t light; 38,960 t standard; 40,788 t normal; 42,250 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 120.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 36.58 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline amidships
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (4x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18,233 lbs / 8,270 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 341.00 ft / 103.94 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Upper: 9.00" / 229 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 461.00 ft / 140.51 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 14.0" / 356 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
3rd: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 66,107 shp / 49,316 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 5,442nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,291 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
1,434 - 1,865
Cost:
£6.492 million / $25.966 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,279 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 15,310 tons, 37.5 %
- Belts: 5,808 tons, 14.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 921 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 3,806 tons, 9.3 %
- Armour Deck: 4,468 tons, 11.0 %
- Conning Tower: 306 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,682 tons, 6.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,011 tons, 39.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,206 tons, 10.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 0.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
60,908 lbs / 27,627 Kg = 36.1 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 10.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 9.2 ft / 2.8 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.32
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.01 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.4 %
Waterplane Area: 60,381 Square feet or 5,610 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 207 lbs/sq ft or 1,009 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.29
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
No superfiring turrets (should have two). No end belt. Upper belt is superfluous if you don't have casemates. Main armament is underarmored compared to belt. Too high freeboard. Ship could be a bit more compact - reduce beam and length to save displacement. The ship is not fast enough that it'd need to be long.
I accidently forgot to fill in the end belt, my bad. Lowered the thickness of the end and upper belts, increased thickness for main armament. Reduced freeboard.
QuoteCanton, RRC Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
33,789 t light; 35,585 t standard; 37,752 t normal; 39,485 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
660.00 ft / 660.00 ft x 110.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
201.17 m / 201.17 m x 33.53 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline amidships
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (4x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18,233 lbs / 8,270 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 220.00 ft / 67.06 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
60.00 ft / 18.29 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 16.0" / 406 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
3rd: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 67,344 shp / 50,239 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 6,894nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,900 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
1,353 - 1,760
Cost:
£6.327 million / $25.307 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,279 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 14,470 tons, 38.3 %
- Belts: 5,372 tons, 14.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 799 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 3,892 tons, 10.3 %
- Armour Deck: 4,116 tons, 10.9 %
- Conning Tower: 291 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,733 tons, 7.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,008 tons, 37.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,963 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
50,031 lbs / 22,694 Kg = 29.6 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 8.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 7.9 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.9 %
Waterplane Area: 55,616 Square feet or 5,167 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 199 lbs/sq ft or 970 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Why waste a perfectly good CCBB?
Build to mercantile standard, with coal standing in for extra misc weight.
Total pricetag 5 BP $2.5
QuoteBaoying, RCC CVE laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
14.368 t light; 14.840 t standard; 22.535 t normal; 28.690 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555,90 ft / 554,46 ft x 95,14 ft x 22,97 ft (normal load)
169,44 m / 169,00 m x 29,00 m x 7,00 m
Armament:
20 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 257 lbs / 117 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,39" / 10 mm -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25.914 shp / 19.332 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 40.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 13.851 tons (60% coal)
Complement:
919 - 1.195
Cost:
£1,223 million / $4,894 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 32 tons, 0,1%
Armour: 22 tons, 0,1%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 22 tons, 0,1%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
Machinery: 1.021 tons, 4,5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.292 tons, 32,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8.167 tons, 36,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 6.000 tons, 26,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
52.392 lbs / 23.765 Kg = 4.070,2 x 3,0 " / 75 mm shells or 6,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,34
Metacentric height 7,8 ft / 2,4 m
Roll period: 14,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,49
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,651
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16,47 ft / 5,02 m
- Forecastle (20%): 16,47 ft / 5,02 m
- Mid (50%): 16,47 ft / 5,02 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,47 ft / 5,02 m
- Stern: 16,47 ft / 5,02 m
- Average freeboard: 16,47 ft / 5,02 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 46,0%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138,1%
Waterplane Area: 40.450 Square feet or 3.758 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 271%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 695 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,37
- Longitudinal: 1,39
- Overall: 1,37
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
4000 tons misc weight and 4000 tons of coal are representing the flight deck and structures to keep and maintain the aircraft.
I'd say the rules do not allow CVs built to mercantile standard - no way you could have all aviation equipment covered by a mere 2% of displacement.
Total weight spend on aviation is 12Ktons. Displacement is 14Ktons light.
2%?
Copy paste from the SS file below,
QuoteMiscellaneous weights: 6.000 tons, 26,6%
And that's doubled by the rules on misc weight vs fuel.
The new mercantile standard rule allows only up to 2% weight allocation for military stuff. Rule says
"A ship in government service may be built to mercantile standards if armament and armor take up no more than 2% of the ship's weight at normal displacement. Such ships could include colliers, transports, survey ships, and others."
But shouldn't other military stuff included in it? Anyways, it should be discussed after the war, so as not to distract Rocky.
Rule 1
Play the game, not the rules.
Quote from: maddox on December 01, 2008, 01:38:18 AM
Rule 1
Play the game, not the rules.
That does not mean that one should ignore rules completely.
If we were talking about a merchant conversion with a fly-off and landing platform, one could argue merchant standard makes sense, but not in a full-blown carrier. I think aircraft facilities are military, and should be included in the 2%, at least in purpose designed ships
QuoteI'd say the rules do not allow CVs built to mercantile standard - no way you could have all aviation equipment covered by a mere 2% of displacement.
I totally agree. That merchant rule is obviously there to prevent anyone from using it to build really cheap carriers.
... and as for M's Baoying desing, I think twenty 75mm guns is a bit too much...
I will ponder the carrier design question and get back to everybody - I thought I had a bit of time for this giving how little historical work was happening in 1915.
In the interim, read Rick Robinson's springstyle notes on carrier design, assume all costs will be full/military, do not design armored-box carriers, and do not assume that bunkerage can be used to offset aviation-related weights.
It may not turn out this way, but you'll be safer if you assume it will.
It's clear that Baoying ain't in the spirit of the Nverse. And the reason I posted it was to get this in the open again.
Also, it's clear that Springsharp isn't the best thing to design carriers with.
Historicaly seen, there were classes of small carriers based on merchant hulls, bit those ships carried a dozen + a few aircraft, not the 60 to 90 for fleet carriers. Also, these were WWII rush jobs.
CL/Raider
QuoteWu, RRC Fog Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
8,668 t light; 9,033 t standard; 9,840 t normal; 10,485 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
570.00 ft / 570.00 ft x 57.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
173.74 m / 173.74 m x 17.37 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
18 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6 mounts), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 4 raised guns - superfiring
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 1,998 lbs / 906 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 490.00 ft / 149.35 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 132 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 66,301 shp / 49,461 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,453 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
493 - 642
Cost:
£1.333 million / $5.331 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 250 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 1,951 tons, 19.8 %
- Belts: 1,410 tons, 14.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 89 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 412 tons, 4.2 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,879 tons, 29.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,339 tons, 33.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,172 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,210 lbs / 2,817 Kg = 57.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.530
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 130.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.6 %
Waterplane Area: 22,255 Square feet or 2,068 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 97 lbs/sq ft or 474 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Mount with hoist can come only in single and twin varieties. So you need 9 mounts total. I'd also quote Borys signature - before he changes that to
QuoteBLOOD! BLOOD! KILL! MAIM! BURN! KILL! BLOOD!
Good to see a a design with more guns than what Korpen could think up, BTW.
Quote from: maddox on December 01, 2008, 10:27:41 AM
Historicaly seen, there were classes of small carriers based on merchant hulls, bit those ships carried a dozen + a few aircraft, not the 60 to 90 for fleet carriers. Also, these were WWII rush jobs.
Don't forget USS Langley hersel. She was a modified collier (and the USN's turbine test ship), and HMS Argus was a modified liner. In the era we're simming, most carriers were still modified merchant ships of some sort (Furious excepting, of course).
QuoteSha-Hay, RRC Killing Intent Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,295 t standard; 9,222 t normal; 9,963 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
570.00 ft / 570.00 ft x 57.00 ft x 19.00 ft (normal load)
173.74 m / 173.74 m x 17.37 m x 5.79 m
Armament:
10 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (5x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 929 lbs / 421 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 365.00 ft / 111.25 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,347 shp / 36,067 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,668 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
469 - 611
Cost:
£1.041 million / $4.166 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 116 tons, 1.3 %
Armour: 1,866 tons, 20.2 %
- Belts: 1,097 tons, 11.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 117 tons, 1.3 %
- Armour Deck: 613 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 38 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,417 tons, 26.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,285 tons, 35.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,222 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 316 tons, 3.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,886 lbs / 4,484 Kg = 158.2 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.523
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.4 %
Waterplane Area: 22,107 Square feet or 2,054 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 100 lbs/sq ft or 489 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.15
- Longitudinal: 0.95
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
125t Construction Reserve
8t Torpedo Tubes
18t Torpedo (18)
25t Long-Range Wireless
100t Mines (100)
40t Extra Blige Pumps
Why build the AA cruiser USS Atlanta now?
Because the low-angle, long-barreled (thus slow-training) 5"s would be perfect for AA work even without any AA fire director or proximity-fused shells.
Quote from: P3D on December 07, 2008, 01:28:10 AM
Because the low-angle, long-barreled (thus slow-training) 5"s would be perfect for AA work even without any AA fire director or proximity-fused shells.
the atlanta referance was due to the layout (its exactly the same) although the ship is longer, wider, and shalower. it also weighs in at close to 2K more mass. I just dont personaly see the need for a CL on CA mass...
ATM any CLs we actualy build are realy just over grown Destroyers (or atleast thats my take on nit)
QuoteI just dont personaly see the need for a CL on CA mass...
To me its seems like a waste of materials. ALso, RRC does not have the required tech for 3" AA guns...
... and "Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces"
Lighter displacement, reduced speed, fixed belt:
QuoteSha-Hay, RRC Killing Intent Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
6,666 t light; 6,924 t standard; 7,768 t normal; 8,443 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
570.00 ft / 570.00 ft x 57.00 ft x 16.00 ft (normal load)
173.74 m / 173.74 m x 17.37 m x 4.88 m
Armament:
10 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (5x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 875 lbs / 397 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 308.00 ft / 93.88 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32,844 shp / 24,502 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,519 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
413 - 537
Cost:
£0.807 million / $3.230 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 109 tons, 1.4 %
Armour: 1,509 tons, 19.4 %
- Belts: 951 tons, 12.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 115 tons, 1.5 %
- Armour Deck: 409 tons, 5.3 %
- Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,642 tons, 21.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,231 tons, 41.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,102 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 174 tons, 2.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,453 lbs / 5,195 Kg = 183.2 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 12.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.20
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.523
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.5 %
Waterplane Area: 22,110 Square feet or 2,054 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 133 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 501 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.24
- Longitudinal: 0.93
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
125t Construction Reserve
25t Long-Range Wireless
8t TT (8)
16t Torpedoes (16)
@Walter
What tech would I need for 3" AA guns?
@Tan
The layout of the ship is much closer to the HMS Emerald layout than the Atlanta. But I agree, to me CLs are, in effect, overgrown DDs.
Anti-aircraft gun and altitudes
Baseline (0): High angle anti-ballon guns or machine guns (up to 1 pounders) = 1,000 feet - starting point for everyone.
High-angle anti-balloon guns are perfect for that role.
1908 Advanced (+1): High angle anti-air guns (20-40mm) = 5,000 feet
1914 Cutting Edge (+3): High angle artillery (40-80mm) = 15,000 feet
1925 Futuristic (+5): High altitude artillery (80mm+) = 30,000 feet
Ah, I forgot about that tech :D
Baseline (0): High angle anti-ballon guns
APA: All 449t of misc. weight is devoted to carrying short-ranged landing craft meaning the boat carries 1796 troops.
QuoteJap-Gig, RRC Attack Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
2,916 t light; 3,048 t standard; 3,546 t normal; 3,945 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
455.00 ft / 455.00 ft x 62.00 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
138.68 m / 138.68 m x 18.90 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (1x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline forward
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all forward
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
Weight of broadside 649 lbs / 294 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,082 shp / 6,775 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 898 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
229 - 298
Cost:
£0.329 million / $1.315 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 81 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 61 tons, 1.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 61 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 398 tons, 11.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,927 tons, 54.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 630 tons, 17.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 449 tons, 12.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,282 lbs / 4,210 Kg = 85.9 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.14
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 229.3 %
Waterplane Area: 19,687 Square feet or 1,829 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 181 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 389 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.03
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
I would like to see how the main guns are arranged.
6 6" forward on a cruiser. I see problems in firing arcs.
Unless the on the side guns are casemated or the twin setup is superfiring. And even then.
Also, is it an amfibious assault support ship? Or a long range troop transport?
APA - amphibous assualt ship
the main guns have limited firing arcs, its meant only to fire front really.
I'll get a gun arrangement picture up soon.
You need more that 250kg for each men plus boats plus accomodation for men plus hull strength to hold it. Try 1t - and that's for short-range transportation.
In le Magnificent it's 2 tons /soldier. And that's without dedicated landing boats nor assorted stuff.
The ship does use the 1t for short-range transportation. Is there some additional weight for each men?
Also, where do you see 250kg? How did you arrive at that number?
Miscellaneous weights: 449 tons, 12.7 %
449tons /1796 troops= 250kg/troop
Chinese are of small posture. Dedicate 100 kg to the trooper himself - this means supplies and such for himself. 75 kg added weight to the ship (you need to have things like extra toilets, washing spots , mess and beds to lay those men). And then 75 kg for the boats and davits. No lightweight fiberglass in this age. Most small boats are wood. And wooden seagoing boats are heavy.
Sounds like a 17th century slaveship to me actualy
Quote from: maddox on December 07, 2008, 06:56:06 PM
Sounds like a 17th century slaveship to me actualy
or an Italian oceangoing Destroyer (I actualy wrote a story about the abismil conditions onboard them)
That comes up with 4475 troops each ship.
2983 troops for 150kg per trooper
2237 troops for 200kg per trooper
1790 troops for 250kg per trooper
Besides, slaveships are very efficent in carrying people :) I only worry about the troopers getting to the bathrooms in time. Besides, it's a APA, not a ocean liner. (One can only wonder where the complaint letters end up.)
Miscellaneous weights: 449 tons
they are saying you need 1 ton per trooper, where you are giving each trooper 250kg (im no metric master but im fairly sure that isnt a ton)
so your ship could haul 449 troopers
where you say it can haul 1790 troopers.
see the problem?
Now I cant coment on this era, but I can tell you what conditions are like on USS Wasp(a LHD). I had my own Rack (bed) Space to store all my Gear (including our own weapons locker just for the Marines) and she could haul up to 2200 Marines.
Quote from: Logi on December 07, 2008, 07:28:31 PM
That comes up with 4475 troops each ship.
What comes with 4475 troops each ship?
Quote2983 troops for 150kg per trooper
2237 troops for 200kg per trooper
1790 troops for 250kg per trooper
Each trooper needs space. That space is at minimum -including his personal gear-2m³
to see what this space weights in a modern, steel ship I use the simple idea of a closet from sheet steel. 1mm think. 2m³ is 10m² steel sheet= 78,5 kg.
This means that the trooper doesn't have acces to things like a bathroom , personal hygiëne , food nor drink.
QuoteBesides, slaveships are very efficent in carrying people :)
There was a reason they stacked the slaves. If 10% survived they got still a nice profit.
QuoteI only worry about the troopers getting to the bathrooms in time. Besides, it's a APA, not a ocean liner. (One can only wonder where the complaint letters end up.)
I rather think your troops will piss, shit and vomit in the sea. And the complaint letters are dandy toilet paper
Was it 75kg for each troopers' bathroom? I just subtracted 75kg from the overall misc weight once, same with the boats.
If so, that the ship really does carry 1790 troops (100kg).
For more space perhaps:
1496 troops, each trooper has an addition 50kg of room.
Nope, it's 78,5 kg each troop to provide a roof over his head, so he won't wash overboard if the sea does what the sea does.
On a ship 1mm sheet steel isn't used, even a simple locker on deck is 5mm corrugated steel.
So with the efficiency to build a quonset on the ship to stuff those guys, it's probably not far off.
But then you have the seagoing equivalent of a schoolbus. With only the facilities for the normal compliment of the crew. All 300 of them.
Ever been at a festival were 2000 people used the same 10 toilets? (and here we neglect the fact of seasickness)
@ Tan
Sorry, I missed your post by mistake.
So:
500 troops (standard)
1200 troops (short-distance)
Quote from: Logi on December 07, 2008, 08:18:08 PM
@ Tan
Sorry, I missed your post by mistake.
So:
500 troops (standard)
1200 troops (short-distance)
Ya I could buy that
The 400 troops is the short-distance one.
WWII APA needed about 10t displacement per trooper. If you take Queen Mary, 16000 trooper was hot-bunking (sleeping in shifts) on the 80,000t ship (5t/trooper), for a few-days cross-Atlantic voyage at 30kts. And that's a troop transport, not an assault ship that needs to carry food and ammo for the troopers, and the holds being stowed for ease of unloading (which cuts efficiency to half or so).
1t misc weight for a trooper is right for a short-range (two nights at most) troop transport, 2t for an assault ship with landing boats/lighters or for long-distance troop transport (as in from France to India).
That is want I mean by short-range. I was told since the Asian population is of relatively small posture. As such, I would think you could probably fit more Chinese people in a APA than UK or US people. (Believe, I know. Chinese people are about 75% skinner than whites, blacks, etcs)
As such, I would thing such a ship could hold alot more people for short-range (no need to carry all that food). I myself only eat 2 meals a day and they are what one would consider reduced rations (1 bowl of rice & 1 small plate of side dish). I would think one would be able too carry more chinese troops than say CSA troops.
Now, if you believe it really cannot carry so many people, I will reduce it to:
300t (Standard)
500t (Short-distance)
It's not really about body height and diet. Ammo would take more up than food. Anyways, of you want the troops function to any standards, two bowls of rice won't cut it for heavy physical work. But the largest volume is mules/horses and their fodder pulling the artillery and supply wagons.
And perhaps Tanthalas would tell us about the accommodations that the USN provides for the marines in ships. The USN is famous to cram 50% larger crews in similar sized hulls than the rest of the world.
QuoteAnyways, of you want the troops function to any standards, two bowls of rice won't cut it for heavy physical work.
Hmmm... Questionable but I'll let it slide.
QuoteBut the largest volume is mules/horses and their fodder pulling the artillery and supply wagons.
Why would I need supply wagons? Please clarify. I intended to use such ships as an direct assault on port cities. Not much of a distance to travel there.
Maddox and Tan have said that it seems fine.
To transport 500 infantry with their gear over a reasonable distance, (not Hong kong to Singapore) yes. But as P3D writes, if you start to load draft animals and artillery, it becomes another matter.
Quote from: P3D on December 07, 2008, 09:55:19 PM
It's not really about body height and diet. Ammo would take more up than food. Anyways, of you want the troops function to any standards, two bowls of rice won't cut it for heavy physical work. But the largest volume is mules/horses and their fodder pulling the artillery and supply wagons.
And perhaps Tanthalas would tell us about the accommodations that the USN provides for the marines in ships. The USN is famous to cram 50% larger crews in similar sized hulls than the rest of the world.
well we got 3 square a day (4 if ya were up at midnight for midrats), birthing on USS Wasp we slept 60 to a birthing, each birthing Compartment had 3 shitters, 2 pissers, 7 sinks (one sinf with the pissers and shitters 6 in by the showers), and 6 showers. The Majority of the ship was actualy given over to Storeage (Helos, LCACs, Equipment, Food, Amunition) im fairly sure you could do away with all the comand and control equipment (not like your planing to qordinate 2200 Marines landing on a beach) the aircraft Facilities would be unnecessary, but you still come down to needing to have a rack for each man and a place for him to stow his equipment (aswell as spares, aditional ammo, medical suplies) and if you want them to fight at the end of the trip you had better figure on feading them 3 meals a day, and providing an area for them to exersize (we ran laps around Wasps flight deck twice a day).
any other questions =P
@Maddox
It was meant to be used in Habour Assault. Only men charging into the city and destroying things is needed, other ships as well as the APA would provide artillery support. Also, as I stated to P3D, since it is an almost instant disbarkment - raiding, there is really no need for animals.
@Tan
Can't incorporate an area to excerise :( (Although they could run around the front and back of the ship when the guns are not in use).
Also, are you saying that such as it is, it does not provide enough food for the troops?
for referance here is the ship im farmiliar with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wasp_(LHD-1)
Each Marine had a Rack (bed) they were stacked either 3 or 4 high (depended on which birthing compartment you were asighnd to) each rack is 3' X 7' X 8" (the 8" is important because you are expected to stow all your uniform items in the locker that is part of your rack).
3 rack Berthing layout
http://www.glen-l.com/weblettr/webletters-11/hawaii/wl86-pt728-11.jpg
Also there was a Marine Armory onboard where your Rifle and personal load of Amunition were stowed.
this is a Mess Decks (on a CV i think as there are alot of colord shirt guys which are plane handalers)
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fQE2zr6ZH1tU/610x.jpg
I realy dont know much about the operation of the ship, my life during trips was fairly boring.
*gasp* Such space on the Mess Decks. The beds are pretty cramped though.
In some schools the kids are literally squeezing each other into sandwiches. One I used to go to had about 3000 kids in a caferia at a time in a fairly small area. It became a oven during the summer.
Quote from: Logi on December 07, 2008, 10:39:21 PM
*gasp* Such space on the Mess Decks. The beds are pretty cramped though.
In some schools the kids are literally squeezing each other into sandwiches. One I used to go to had about 3000 kids in a caferia at a time in a fairly small area. It became a oven during the summer.
figure that mess decks is proly rated at 1000 swinging dicks an hour
the racks are damn tight, big guys cant turn over once they get in em (im only 6' 225 and I couldnt)
http://www.bluejacket.com/usn/images/oth/people_berthing.jpg
Just for referance a WW2 US BB berthing Compartment
Please note this quote from the Ship Design Guidelines in the Rules:
QuoteTroops: 1 t per four troops for short-ranged landing craft. 2 t per troop for long-term (> 1 day) embarkment.
QuotePLAY THE GAME, NOT THE RULES
:D
So following the rules, it becomes 250 troops for long distance travel and 2000 for short distance.
Where do you get that 2000t misc weight? Bunker capacity cannot really be converted into additional accomodations.
The ship with its all forward aimed armament reminds me a little bit of the Go Ni Mk.II I created for Wesworld. Guns forward to blast any idiot on the beach to bits. It's slightly bigger than the Jap-Gig and has limited armor to protect the crew but I was always a little bit worried about its draught. The Mk.I was about 2/3 and the Mk.III about twice the displacement of the Jap-Gig.
I used 1.5 tons to calculate the number of troops for those ships since the Japanese soldiers are lighter and smaller so it was good for 330 soldiers (250 regular-sized soldiers)... and it ain't no luxury ocean liner.
Firing arcs were never a big issue of the ship as I expected the main firing zone to be 30 degrees either side.
QuoteNo lightweight fiberglass in this age.
How about plywood? :)
QuoteSounds like a 17th century slaveship to me actualy
Yes, it is. The 2 tons/soldier is also a matter of
volume, not just weight of the soldier and gear and support facilities.
Personaly I prefer Rubber
Quote from: Walter on December 08, 2008, 03:43:36 PM
Yes, it is. The 2 tons/soldier is also a matter of volume, not just weight of the soldier and gear and support facilities.
Yes, and this creates some weird things sometimes, as increasing freeboard and thereby increasing the internal volume of the ship reduces the amount of people one can fit into it using misc weight...
One can live it with it in larger ships, at least the one built to merchant standard as they are cheap enough to just be larger. But it is major headache if one is trying to get 40 combat loaded soldiers and 4 tons of cargo into a 35ton ship...
QuoteWhere do you get that 2000t misc weight? Bunker capacity cannot really be converted into additional accomodations.
Troops:
1 t per four troops for short-ranged landing craft. 2 t per troop for long-term (> 1 day) embarkment. That's converting the misc wegiht turns out to be around 2000 troops.
QuoteQuoteYes, it is. The 2 tons/soldier is also a matter of volume, not just weight of the soldier and gear and support facilities.
Yes, and this creates some weird things sometimes, as increasing freeboard and thereby increasing the internal volume of the ship reduces the amount of people one can fit into it using misc weight...
I agree. However, I'm sure I could arrange something if it was truely needed.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2337.msg24795#msg24795
Logi, the link is a transport of similar size that I designed for the DKB while caretaking it. With reduced speed, reduced armament (leave the heavy shore bombardment to your warships), and a deeper-draught, the Brandenburger has three times the lifting capacity of your design.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=884.msg23286#msg23286
Link to Dutch transport: twice the payload, better speed and range.
As The Doctor say; leave the serious bombarding to the warships.
QuoteOne can live it with it in larger ships, at least the one built to merchant standard as they are cheap enough to just be larger. But it is major headache if one is trying to get 40 combat loaded soldiers and 4 tons of cargo into a 35ton ship...
I've always looked at the SS carrier guidelines as: "More planes are possible on the carrier then what the miscellaneous weight formula indicates, but it affects the carrier operations."
With troop ships something similar could be applied. 6000 tons of miscellaneous weights is good for 3000 troops, but one could probably squeeze 10,000 men aboard. However it would have a
serious impact on the comfort level of the passengers, especially over a longer distance. Sanitation facilities of the ship can't handle it, the food you get is so bad that even a pig would not eat it, you can't turn around without knocking the guy next to you overboard and you'd probably be sleeping in a one person bed with three other guys at the same time.
I actually like the RRC attack transport. As I said, it reminds me a bit of the Go Ni class. I am not sure what Logi's idea is with the vessel, but the idea I had was that one could never have too many guns bombarding the shore during the begin phase of the attack... so besides the 150mm main guns, the Go Ni Mk.II also had 75mm guns.
Is it useful?
... Probably not. :P
Go Ni Mk.I http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=3943#post3943
Go Ni Mk.II http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=6058#post6058
QuoteBo-Wu, RRC Haze Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
26,296 t light; 27,708 t standard; 30,057 t normal; 31,937 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 94.90 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 28.93 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
4 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (8x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 14,012 lbs / 6,356 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 55,112 shp / 41,113 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,032nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,229 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,140 - 1,483
Cost:
£3.971 million / $15.884 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,752 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 8,537 tons, 28.4 %
- Belts: 3,830 tons, 12.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 740 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 1,985 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,878 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 104 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,417 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,291 tons, 44.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,761 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,238 lbs / 17,345 Kg = 22.7 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 6.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.2 %
Waterplane Area: 50,748 Square feet or 4,715 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 205 lbs/sq ft or 1,002 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.16
- Longitudinal: 0.94
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Ahoj!
The armour is too thin, IMO. And I'm not so sure about the AoN armour scheme.
I'd also put the four-inchers in casemattes.
And I'm jealous of your Type 3 slips!
Borys
Damn, bigger than my Bretagnes. And a lot faster.
But Battlecruisers, not battleships.
Where are these build?
Quote from: Borys on December 14, 2008, 05:36:52 PM
Ahoj!
The armour is too thin, IMO. And I'm not so sure about the AoN armour scheme.
I'd also put the four-inchers in casemattes.
And I'm jealous of your Type 3 slips!
Borys
he cant build it anyway...
Quote16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (8x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
reguires the 1910 cruiser tech which the MK dosnt have to my knowlage (yet)
hehe, I foresaw I would built ships of generally this size so I upgraded my Type 2 dock into a type 3 ;D
@armour issue
I tried to squeeze the most I could but this is what I came up with. I had to maintain the 24kt battle line :-\
@maddox
Currently the only Type 3 dd that the RRC has is the one in Macau.
With casemates:
QuoteBo-Wu, RRC Haze Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
26,299 t light; 27,711 t standard; 30,057 t normal; 31,935 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 94.90 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 28.93 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
4 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 14,012 lbs / 6,356 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 55,112 shp / 41,113 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,024nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,224 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,140 - 1,483
Cost:
£3.971 million / $15.884 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,752 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 8,648 tons, 28.8 %
- Belts: 3,934 tons, 13.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 740 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 1,992 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,878 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 104 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,417 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,182 tons, 43.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,758 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,570 lbs / 17,495 Kg = 22.9 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 6.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.2 %
Waterplane Area: 50,748 Square feet or 4,715 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 994 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.16
- Longitudinal: 0.94
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Shortened belt and increased freeboard version.
QuoteBo-Wu, RRC Haze Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
26,387 t light; 27,718 t standard; 30,057 t normal; 31,929 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 94.90 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 28.93 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
4 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 14,012 lbs / 6,356 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 430.00 ft / 131.06 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 55,112 shp / 41,113 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,211 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,140 - 1,483
Cost:
£3.976 million / $15.902 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,752 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 9,796 tons, 32.6 %
- Belts: 4,888 tons, 16.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 740 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 2,186 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,878 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 104 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,417 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,123 tons, 40.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,670 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42,809 lbs / 19,418 Kg = 25.4 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.6 %
Waterplane Area: 50,748 Square feet or 4,715 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 887 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 0.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
AoN stands for All or Nothing armor.
The parts that are armored are armored up the gills, the rest is build as a normal ship.
It's a seperate technology together with sloped belts.
If you used 343-356mm guns, how much would your armour improve?
Borys
Psh... seperate techs... Guess, I'll have to delay that design...
@Borys
Like this:
QuoteBo-Wu, RRC Haze Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
26,440 t light; 27,708 t standard; 30,057 t normal; 31,937 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 94.90 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 28.93 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (8x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,488 lbs / 5,211 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 55,112 shp / 41,113 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,032nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,229 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,140 - 1,483
Cost:
£3.593 million / $14.371 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,436 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 9,613 tons, 32.0 %
- Belts: 5,056 tons, 16.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 740 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 1,835 tons, 6.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,878 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 104 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,417 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,674 tons, 42.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,617 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
43,589 lbs / 19,771 Kg = 31.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.2 %
Waterplane Area: 50,748 Square feet or 4,715 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 196 lbs/sq ft or 955 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.19
- Longitudinal: 0.94
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Looks better. How about keeping the Main Belt at 12" or 12,5", and using the savings on turret faces?
Borys
Not to be a dick or anything, but you do not possess the technology to build a 'All or Nothing" armour scheme ship. Also, mount and hoist secondaries are limited to 1" armour on the hoist. You turret armour is terrible for a BB and only adequate for a BC. You have almost 95' beam and no TDS, this is bad. Your deck armour is thin for this time frame on a BB. Seaboat quality is terrible at 1.04. It looks like you're caught between a BB and a BC...you have BB guns and speed, but BC armour. I'd try a smaller ship first w/ 4x2 13" and either better armour or more speed. IMO of course.
The latest design still is AoN.
For an non AoN ship you need end and upper armor, and that thick enough to keep out cruiser shells.
Having 4" guns, with hoists, just a waste of weight. 4" is easely enough handled without heavy technological help. Also, it requires the relevant tech from cruisers.
@Sam
Refer to my comment where I said I would have to delay the plans
The secondares are now CASEMATES
The 2" torepdo bulkhead is what I would consider TDA
Seaboat Quality can be improved, I will do so in my next update (around 1.23)
Armour was increased to 13.2"
Turret armour will also be increased in the next update
@maddox
AoN: See the first thing I said in this post
4" guns with hoists: I switched to castemates
EDIT: I noticed I had forgotten to save the design I used last still had mount and hoist on, it will be fixed.
New version, following Borys's comments:
Lowered belt thickness to 12", raised deck thickness to 3", increased turret thickness, reduced length of armour to cmpenstate for the increased weight.
QuoteBo-Wu, RRC Haze Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
26,979 t light; 28,259 t standard; 30,644 t normal; 32,552 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 94.90 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 28.93 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,488 lbs / 5,211 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 12.0" / 305 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 56,002 shp / 41,778 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,046nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,293 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,157 - 1,505
Cost:
£3.628 million / $14.513 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,436 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 10,936 tons, 35.7 %
- Belts: 4,903 tons, 16.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 685 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 2,396 tons, 7.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,848 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 105 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,456 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,850 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,665 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
49,392 lbs / 22,404 Kg = 36.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 8.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.627
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.1 %
Waterplane Area: 51,317 Square feet or 4,767 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 859 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.04
- Longitudinal: 0.98
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Truthfully, is the intention of the 1" limit on mount and hoist protection really meant of capital ships? I understand it as a measure to prevent heavily armored main gun mounts on protected cruisers before the applicable tech is acquired, but I don't see it as so relevant on a battleship.
Or maybe a better question is: is it ok to put battleship secondaries in turret and barbette mounts if they are below 6.5"? With AoN, the designer would have little use for either mount and hoist nor turret and barbette secondaries of more than about 1.5" or 2" of armor (or whatever one might consider likely to set off the enemies MB AP rounds), but 1" seems a little thin for splinter protection in the BB circumstance.
Quote from: guinness on December 14, 2008, 07:30:02 PM
Truthfully, is the intention of the 1" limit on mount and hoist protection really meant of capital ships? I understand it as a measure to prevent heavily armored main gun mounts on protected cruisers before the applicable tech is acquired, but I don't see it as so relevant on a battleship.
Or maybe a better question is: is it ok to put battleship secondaries in turret and barbette mounts if they are below 6.5"? With AoN, the designer would have little use for either mount and hoist nor turret and barbette secondaries of more than about 1.5" or 2" of armor (or whatever one might consider likely to set off the enemies MB AP rounds), but 1" seems a little thin for splinter protection in the BB circumstance.
the US twin 5" used on the Iowas and the other BBs only had a 3" face, 1" sides and roof, and 1" below decks. I think this is what they drew the rule from.
QuoteBB12 Project, RRC Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
21,102 t light; 22,165 t standard; 23,893 t normal; 25,276 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
635.00 ft / 625.00 ft x 79.60 ft x 25.90 ft (normal load)
193.55 m / 190.50 m x 24.26 m x 7.89 m
Armament:
9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,098.50lbs / 498.27kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 10,399 lbs / 4,717 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 295.00 ft / 89.92 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 49,599 shp / 37,001 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 6,067nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,111 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
960 - 1,249
Cost:
£3.105 million / $12.422 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,300 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 8,375 tons, 35.1 %
- Belts: 4,279 tons, 17.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,192 tons, 9.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,761 tons, 7.4 %
- Conning Tower: 143 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,175 tons, 9.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,952 tons, 37.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,791 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,307 lbs / 14,654 Kg = 29.4 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.85
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.649
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19.30 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.38 ft / 5.91 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.1 %
Waterplane Area: 38,076 Square feet or 3,537 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 164 lbs/sq ft or 802 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
EDIT: Switched Range and Cruise Speed values by mistake; fixed
Forgot to raise one turret; fixed
Might want to fix this part
QuoteMachinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 45,771 shp / 34,145 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 12nm at 24.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 193 tons (100% coal)
It was fixed ;)
Quote from: Logi on December 14, 2008, 09:30:58 PM
It was fixed ;)
just one other problem then, you dont have all centerline Superfireing Tripples tech (the next BB tech above the one you have)
realy a decent ship though man.
Quotejust one other problem then, you dont have all centerline Superfireing Tripples tech (the next BB tech above the one you have)
On the contrary, I do have it as of the CSA tech trade. (Which was completed 1914 or 1915 can't remember as of now)
I like the last 4x2x14" design. The armour although thinnish now borders on the acceptable :)
As the barbettes are round, and thus you have to be very unlucky to be hit straight on, I'd venture the suggestion of trimming barbettes down to 11", and putting that inch on the turret face.
"Other gunhouse" can be kept at 2/3rds of turret face.
The 3x3x13" design is IMO too weak - or you're using the wrong guns.
I'd recommend using these:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_126-44_m1934.htm
as the gun you're using is marginally more powerful than the last 12":
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_12-52_m1907.htm
Borys
3x3x13" design - enhanced firepower through the usage of "superheavy" shells (1200lb as opposed to the normal 1098lb)
QuoteBB12 Project, RRC Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
21,379 t light; 22,499 t standard; 24,244 t normal; 25,639 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
635.00 ft / 625.00 ft x 79.60 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
193.55 m / 190.50 m x 24.26 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,200.00lbs / 544.31kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 11,312 lbs / 5,131 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 295.00 ft / 89.92 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 50,154 shp / 37,415 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 6,067nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,140 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
970 - 1,262
Cost:
£3.124 million / $12.498 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,300 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 8,388 tons, 34.6 %
- Belts: 4,280 tons, 17.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,192 tons, 9.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,772 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 144 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,200 tons, 9.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,191 tons, 37.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,865 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,965 lbs / 14,953 Kg = 30.0 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.656
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19.30 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.38 ft / 5.91 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.5 %
Waterplane Area: 38,321 Square feet or 3,560 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 819 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Modified Haze class Battleship
Took Borys's advice on armour reduction, used some of extra displacement on "superheavy" shells (1500lbs as opposed to 1372lbs)
QuoteBo-Wu, RRC Haze Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
27,025 t light; 28,366 t standard; 30,741 t normal; 32,642 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 94.90 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 28.93 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,512 lbs / 5,675 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 425.00 ft / 129.54 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 56,151 shp / 41,888 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,276 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,160 - 1,509
Cost:
£3.632 million / $14.527 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,436 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 10,973 tons, 35.7 %
- Belts: 5,144 tons, 16.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 685 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 2,185 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 2,853 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,463 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,854 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,716 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,401 lbs / 21,501 Kg = 34.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 87 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.629
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.0 %
Waterplane Area: 51,412 Square feet or 4,776 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 858 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.02
- Longitudinal: 0.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
"Superheavy" is 1650lbs not 1500.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_14-52_mk6.htm
Modified "Superheavy" shell weight
QuoteBo-Wu, RRC Haze Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
27,128 t light; 28,505 t standard; 30,888 t normal; 32,795 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 94.90 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 28.93 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 13,112 lbs / 5,948 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 425.00 ft / 129.54 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 56,374 shp / 42,055 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,290 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,164 - 1,514
Cost:
£3.639 million / $14.556 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,436 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 10,982 tons, 35.6 %
- Belts: 5,145 tons, 16.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 685 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 2,185 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 2,861 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,473 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,937 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,760 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
50,017 lbs / 22,687 Kg = 36.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 8.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.632
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.9 %
Waterplane Area: 51,554 Square feet or 4,790 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 862 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.01
- Longitudinal: 0.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Fast Battleship Design - Design designated BB13 Project
QuoteBB13 Project, RRC Fast Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
23,793 t light; 24,962 t standard; 26,837 t normal; 28,337 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 707.00 ft x 91.20 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 215.49 m x 27.80 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3 mounts), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised gun
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,149 lbs / 5,057 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 317.00 ft / 96.62 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,671 shp / 59,435 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,374 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,047 - 1,362
Cost:
£3.371 million / $13.483 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,185 tons, 4.4 %
Armour: 8,078 tons, 30.1 %
- Belts: 4,216 tons, 15.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,600 tons, 6.0 %
- Armour Deck: 2,146 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 116 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,494 tons, 13.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,735 tons, 40.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,044 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,722 lbs / 14,843 Kg = 23.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.583
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.03 ft / 1.53 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.9 %
Waterplane Area: 46,401 Square feet or 4,311 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 842 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.04
- Longitudinal: 0.98
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
1 tripple turret (probably the one aft) 1 twin ( A turret) and 1 single one superfiring.
Talking about waste of space, materials and ability. But she would look mighty.
Superheavy shells, like those of the USN, are yet to be included ruleswise in the sim. IMO. Appropriate weight for a 14" at this period would be 1400 lbs, as all OTL users had shells of that weight.
The exception was the Russian gun, but it apparently had some issues, and the British used it with a lighter shell - 1586lbs.
Borys
And the Russians had used "superheavy" 12" shells too, without much of a problem. I also read some Russians disagree with the RN evaluation of the gun (well, what would you expect both of them).
The main problem with the US superheavy shells was that they had a minuscule bursting charge. And actually there's nothing really that would make heavy shells unsuitable. There is a historical precedent, and nothing says that others could not have got it right.
@Maddox
I just noticed I didn't raise all the guns in my designs :( Here's the fixed one.
The arrangement is the ordinary two front, one back. The turrets are twins, however.
QuoteBB13 Project, RRC Fast Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
23,824 t light; 24,996 t standard; 26,967 t normal; 28,544 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 707.00 ft x 91.20 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 215.49 m x 27.80 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,148 lbs / 5,057 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 337.00 ft / 102.72 m 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.30" / 58 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,310nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,548 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,051 - 1,367
Cost:
£3.375 million / $13.501 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,185 tons, 4.4 %
Armour: 8,095 tons, 30.0 %
- Belts: 4,292 tons, 15.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,707 tons, 6.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,980 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 116 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,509 tons, 13.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,735 tons, 39.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,143 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,539 lbs / 15,213 Kg = 24.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.586
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 4.53 ft / 1.38 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.2 %
Waterplane Area: 46,524 Square feet or 4,322 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 832 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
QuoteSeaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
...
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
IMO, your hull is not very good for 27kts
you could certainly have
Seaboat quality 1.20
if you rework the freeboard
;)
Most certainly, but in doing so I would exceed the 80 000shp limit for my engine tech. Also, doing so would put an extra 1000ton on my ship
Here is the "good" freeboard ship without engine modification (ie over shp limit)
QuoteBB13 Project, RRC Fast Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
24,721 t light; 25,912 t standard; 27,930 t normal; 29,544 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 707.00 ft x 91.20 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 215.49 m x 27.80 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,148 lbs / 5,057 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 337.00 ft / 102.72 m 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.30" / 58 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 82,436 shp / 61,497 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,310nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,632 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,079 - 1,404
Cost:
£3.443 million / $13.771 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,185 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 8,302 tons, 29.7 %
- Belts: 4,295 tons, 15.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,869 tons, 6.7 %
- Armour Deck: 2,019 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Tower: 119 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,616 tons, 12.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,319 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,209 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,119 lbs / 17,291 Kg = 27.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.606
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.03 ft / 0.92 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 184.3 %
Waterplane Area: 47,442 Square feet or 4,408 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 838 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.16
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Get a higher bow.
26 kts will get you anywere almost as fast. Range is excessive for your purpose. Your main enemy is pressing at your land borders. And the only reason for a longer range , would be an assault on the NS, and that's something your RRC leaders ain't planning if I follow the messages I see everywere. If you don't want to diminish fuel weight, increase cruise speed.
20% overweight 14" shells???? Those bitches are almost as heavy as the Nverse French 15" shells.
And those are 8% over the SS applied weight.
Overweight shells are good for long range gunnery, assisted by good FC.
Otherwise you would like underweight shells for a fast, flat trajectory.
Quote from: Jefgte on December 17, 2008, 06:29:20 PM
QuoteSeaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
...
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
IMO, your hull is not very good for 27kts
you could certainly have
Seaboat quality 1.20
if you rework the freeboard
;)
Disagree, trying to go for some largely irrelevant seaboat number is not worth scarifying combat or operational capability for.
Quote... trying to go for some largely irrelevant seaboat number is not worth scarifying combat or operational capability for.
Of course, me too
---------------------------------
... Something like this:
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.93 ft / 7.60 m
- Forecastle (19 %): 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Stern: 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Average freeboard: 19.75 ft / 6.02 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Just a design study, I know I don't have the DD tech for the tonnage. This is just to see what I could do with a 1000 ton destroyer.
QuoteTurd, RRC DDX laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
1,006 t light; 1,068 t standard; 1,177 t normal; 1,265 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
337.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 33.00 ft x 8.60 ft (normal load)
102.72 m / 100.58 m x 10.06 m x 2.62 m
Armament:
4 - 7.00" / 178 mm guns in single mounts, 171.50lbs / 77.79kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 686 lbs / 311 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,862 shp / 14,071 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 2,350nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 197 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
99 - 130
Cost:
£0.254 million / $1.015 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 86 tons, 7.3 %
Armour: 35 tons, 2.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 35 tons, 2.9 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 480 tons, 40.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 381 tons, 32.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 171 tons, 14.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
318 lbs / 144 Kg = 1.9 x 7.0 " / 178 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.440
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.81 ft / 0.25 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 12.62 ft / 3.85 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.6 %
Waterplane Area: 6,891 Square feet or 640 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 33 lbs/sq ft or 160 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Due to the lenght of the guns, there should be an "on ends only fire" warning :)
At about 27ft lenght, the breeches stick out some 9ft from where they're trunioned. On a 33ft wide hull loading them for a broadside must be exiting. Especially of the raised mounts ...
Apart from the ridiculous calibre of Main Guns, quite nice ship.
Borys
One of the most strange ships I've seen passing by. But I wouldn't call her Turd.
I envision a kind of Virginia with a very high superstructure.
But to make it a possible cannidate for a RRC ship, I would have added underwater torpedo tubes.
And, what is this ships role in the RRC fleet?
Her main guns size give her a good anti cruiser battery, unfortunatly, that makes them a bit slow in all respects against other DD's or TB's.
And to go up against AC/BC's or BB's, she buttered toast, with as much survival chances as a Pinguin on an Orca convention. With guns whoofully inadequate to deal with them.
But I'm surprised that a 1000 tons hull (I would suggest shaving off a few tons, I feel the 6 tons is passing the commonly aknowledged leeway in designs) can carry 4 of those big guns (165mm 6.5" is a known caliber in the MK navy -hint ;)) and not getting a ends on fire only warning, like Borys writes.
But, why not having a look at the M class UK submarines of the era. If you want big guns on small ships, those are the ticket.
Stabilty = 1.32
Recoil = 0.70
Kinda makes me proud :)
But sure, maddox I'll look into that.
Using the carrier rules, this is a 1st edition battlecarrier. Like typical battlecarrier, flightdeck is halved, located aft of the ship. Since the ship was built as a battlecarrier it is expected the problems that plagued the OTL Japan BCs will not occur. The number of planes that the ship can carry was halved to reflect battlecarrier state.
Can carry 30 airplanes.
QuoteGao Tian, RRC Battlecarrier laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
24,543 t light; 25,603 t standard; 27,792 t normal; 29,544 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 27.43 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
6 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,892 lbs / 4,033 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 310.00 ft / 94.49 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 391.00 ft / 119.18 m 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 310.00 ft / 94.49 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 66 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
One Lightweight Hangar
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 67,628 shp / 50,450 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,941 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,076 - 1,399
Cost:
£3.009 million / $12.034 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 945 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 9,038 tons, 32.5 %
- Belts: 4,810 tons, 17.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,594 tons, 5.7 %
- Armour Deck: 2,437 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 198 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,966 tons, 10.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,293 tons, 37.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,249 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,300 tons, 4.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,407 lbs / 18,782 Kg = 37.7 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.517
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.01 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.35 ft / 5.59 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.7 %
Waterplane Area: 43,911 Square feet or 4,079 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 165 lbs/sq ft or 807 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.09
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
900t Airplanes (30)
250t Construction Reserve
25t Radar
25t Long-Range Wireless
100t Flag Facilities
Why Bother building a carrier to haul 30 airplanes that cant hurt a damn thing, cant comunicate with ships, and have very limited Range. You may not belive it logi but Planes in this Era are almost USELESS as Naval Assets.
Things planes can do in 1915:
-Lift off, look around for a while, return, land and the crew giving the observed info vocaly or has to write it out first. A slightly faster way to get the info back is by dropping a written message. If it is found of course.
-Lift off, and shoot at others with machine guns of not to large caliber. 8mm is big already.
-Lift off and drop a few improvised bombs on the enemy, aiming with improvised aiming devices. Even the biggest bombs of the era are 100-150 lbs HE or shrapnell. That will impress ships build to withstand a lot more punishment.
Maybe early attempts with the smallest torpedo's available. And a 14" torpedo can hurt a ship badly. But getting it to hit the ships is another matter. Or even starting it when submerging and getting it a set depth , or avoiding it exploding when hitting the water...
@Tan
I know and I believe it
@maddox
-my fighters use 10mm
-scouting makes sense
-torpedo problems :(
-150 HE/shrapnel can be used for harbour bombardment right?
Quote from: Logi on December 24, 2008, 11:15:04 PM
@Tan
I know and I believe it
Quote@maddox
-my fighters use 10mm
-scouting makes sense
Same difference. It took a lot more sturdier aircraft to carry the .50 BMGs or even heavier guns.
Scouting was the first use of aircraft in warfare.
Quote-torpedo problems :(
Even in WW II torpedo's did prove to be fickle beasts, especialy when not developed and tested to the bone (ask any WW II US submariner, they could strangle the torpedo builders, with their own intestines.)
Quote-150lbs HE/shrapnel can be used for harbour bombardment right?
Of course. The first succesfull attempt of an aircraft bombardment was on a juicy target with a high flamable index.
Redone design, can carry 66 airplanes of a theorical 95. The main battery layout is akin to that on the HMS Nelson. It is expected that the structure will not act as a mast because of the aft flight deck.
66 Airplanes: bombers with either shraphel or HE bombs.
Airplane Mission: Bombardment (of a land base)
QuoteGao Tian, RRC Battlecarrier laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
30,349 t light; 31,757 t standard; 34,237 t normal; 36,221 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 30.48 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2 mounts), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 3 raised guns - superfiring
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,852 lbs / 5,830 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 341.00 ft / 103.94 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
One Lightweight Hangar
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78,715 shp / 58,721 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,464 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,258 - 1,636
Cost:
£3.906 million / $15.626 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,357 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 8,767 tons, 25.6 %
- Belts: 4,163 tons, 12.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,574 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,803 tons, 8.2 %
- Conning Tower: 227 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,452 tons, 10.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,016 tons, 35.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,889 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,756 tons, 13.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,781 lbs / 17,591 Kg = 35.3 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.554
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.4 %
Waterplane Area: 50,507 Square feet or 4,692 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 874 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Quote9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2 mounts), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 3 raised guns - superfiring
I doubt you have the proper tech for that sextuple turret. :D
Battlecruiser Design Concept
-uses 1916 engines
QuoteKowloon CB-01, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
27,415 t light; 28,635 t standard; 32,688 t normal; 35,930 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 27.43 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,646.40lbs / 746.79kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 10,134 lbs / 4,597 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 291.00 ft / 88.70 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 157,819 shp / 117,733 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,295 tons
Complement:
1,215 - 1,580
Cost:
£4.376 million / $17.502 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,061 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 8,323 tons, 25.5 %
- Belts: 4,762 tons, 14.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,496 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,844 tons, 5.6 %
- Conning Tower: 220 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 5,880 tons, 18.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,851 tons, 36.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,273 tons, 16.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
43,491 lbs / 19,727 Kg = 31.7 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.653
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.01 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 24.65 ft / 7.51 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 188.7 %
Waterplane Area: 49,846 Square feet or 4,631 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 165 lbs/sq ft or 806 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
- too few main guns
- not enough secondaries
- too high SHP - I doubt when updated the rules would allow 38000SHP/shaft
- too high bunkerage
Quote- too few main guns
It was either the twin 14" or the triple 13". I'll switch to the triple 13".
Quote- not enough secondaries
Will do
Quote- too high SHP - I doubt when updated the rules would allow 38000SHP/shaft
I thought the SHP/shaft limit for the 1916 engines was 40k
Quote- too high bunkerage
I assumed the ship was going to run at high speeds for patrolling, hence the 20kts cruise speed. Considering the high speed of the ship, the bunkerage would be burned pretty quickly at top speed.
It's about 2310nm at 31kts. Bunkerage reduced to 1685nm at 29kts.
Edited Version
-triple 13"
QuoteKowloon CB-01, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
27,144 t light; 28,470 t standard; 31,537 t normal; 33,990 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 27.43 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 12,392 lbs / 5,621 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 351.00 ft / 106.98 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Main Belt covers 79 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 116,916 shp / 87,219 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,520 tons
Complement:
1,183 - 1,538
Cost:
£4.339 million / $17.357 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,300 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 9,011 tons, 28.6 %
- Belts: 5,149 tons, 16.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,842 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,806 tons, 5.7 %
- Conning Tower: 215 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 4,356 tons, 13.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,177 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,393 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44,018 lbs / 19,966 Kg = 40.1 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.630
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.01 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 22.60 ft / 6.89 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.6 %
Waterplane Area: 48,802 Square feet or 4,534 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 857 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
35K according to
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3285.14
Now it needs only a little update in the rules section.
With each and every passing designs, the ships got larger and larger in tonnage. A group of designers sought to revert this change and produced this light cruiser concept design.
QuoteXia LouFuor, RRC Light Cruiser laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
11,952 t light; 12,524 t standard; 14,132 t normal; 15,417 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 70.30 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 21.43 m x 6.71 m
Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
18 - 0.93" / 23.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.40lbs / 0.18kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,000 lbs / 2,268 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 301.00 ft / 91.74 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 219.00 ft / 66.75 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 301.00 ft / 91.74 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 44,763 shp / 33,393 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,893 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
647 - 842
Cost:
£1.772 million / $7.088 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 625 tons, 4.4 %
Armour: 3,920 tons, 27.7 %
- Belts: 2,037 tons, 14.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 779 tons, 5.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,003 tons, 7.1 %
- Conning Tower: 101 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,963 tons, 13.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,144 tons, 36.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,179 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,546 lbs / 7,959 Kg = 26.4 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.6 %
Waterplane Area: 27,113 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 626 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.65
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Graff Spee..... A Pocket battleship.
I like her in her own right.
I think she's got the same problem the German Pocket BBs had: she's not fast enough to control the range, and not armored enough against heavier cruiser main armament. Add to that the problems of FC in the period we're in, and she may be a poor bargain. At least, that's the official opinion on such ships from the Confederate Admiralty.
One thing is for sure though: a ship such as this could terrorize the sea lanes, and tie up a disproportionate enemy force, so she likely has value. At least if you are willing to risk her getting cornered by smaller cruisers as at Montevideo.
As I say, a pocket BB.
Maybe 4x2x10"?
Borys
Do 1916 engines make a substantial difference in the results?
I am not sure that pocket BBs are a good solution in Navalism World because, there are much & much BCs able to sink her.
- for small BB, increase armor
- for light cruiser increase the speed to 27-28kts & reduce armor
;)
Testing quickly the cruiser
Protected Cruiser, China 10800T laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
10 800 t light; 11 357 t standard; 12 875 t normal; 14 089 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
554.46 ft / 554.46 ft x 70.21 ft x 22.70 ft (normal load)
169.00 m / 169.00 m x 21.40 m x 6.92 m
Armament:
6 - 10.83" / 275 mm guns (3x2 guns), 634.55lbs / 287.83kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4 705 lbs / 2 134 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: 1.57" / 40 mm 144.36 ft / 44.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
49.21 ft / 15.00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm - -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 54 000 shp / 40 284 Kw = 27.12 kts
Range 8 000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 731 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
603 - 785
Cost:
£1.751 million / $7.003 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 588 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 2 520 tons, 19.6 %
- Belts: 972 tons, 7.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 539 tons, 4.2 %
- Armour Deck: 953 tons, 7.4 %
- Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2 368 tons, 18.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 024 tons, 39.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 074 tons, 16.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14 208 lbs / 6 445 Kg = 22.4 x 10.8 " / 275 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.510
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (19 %): 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.13 ft / 6.44 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.92 ft / 5.46 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.1 %
Waterplane Area: 26 176 Square feet or 2 432 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 629 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.50
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
& the small BB
Pocket BB, China 13200T laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
13 200 t light; 13 838 t standard; 15 537 t normal; 16 897 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
528.22 ft / 528.22 ft x 75.46 ft x 22.93 ft (normal load)
161.00 m / 161.00 m x 23.00 m x 6.99 m
Armament:
6 - 10.83" / 275 mm guns (2x3 guns), 634.55lbs / 287.83kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4 705 lbs / 2 134 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.45" / 240 mm 344.49 ft / 105.00 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: 3.15" / 80 mm 144.36 ft / 44.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
39.37 ft / 12.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 3.15" / 80 mm 344.49 ft / 105.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 344.49 ft / 105.00 m 22.47 ft / 6.85 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.45" / 240 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 9.45" / 240 mm
2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm - -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 9.45" / 240 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 44 000 shp / 32 824 Kw = 24.57 kts
Range 8 000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3 059 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
695 - 904
Cost:
£1.784 million / $7.134 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 588 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 5 071 tons, 32.6 %
- Belts: 2 267 tons, 14.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 451 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 747 tons, 4.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1 479 tons, 9.5 %
- Conning Tower: 127 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1 930 tons, 12.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 236 tons, 33.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 337 tons, 15.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 2.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22 138 lbs / 10 042 Kg = 34.9 x 10.8 " / 275 mm shells or 3.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.595
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.26 ft / 7.70 m
- Forecastle (19 %): 19.36 ft / 5.90 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Stern: 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Average freeboard: 17.66 ft / 5.38 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.3 %
Waterplane Area: 29 016 Square feet or 2 696 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 623 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
@Rock
Well switching to 1916 engines allow for 1 extra kt of speed without increasing the displacement.
Alternate Design
-more tonnage was allowed for a faster ship
-as a result of faster speeds, steadiness was reduced to 50 for optimal stability
-freeboard was increased to keep seakeeping above 1.00
QuoteXia LouFuor, RRC Light Cruiser laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
14,120 t light; 14,739 t standard; 16,484 t normal; 17,880 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 70.30 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 21.43 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
18 - 0.93" / 23.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.40lbs / 0.18kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,000 lbs / 2,268 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 301.00 ft / 91.74 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 219.00 ft / 66.75 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 301.00 ft / 91.74 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 77,472 shp / 57,794 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,141 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
726 - 945
Cost:
£2.174 million / $8.698 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 625 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 4,190 tons, 25.4 %
- Belts: 2,245 tons, 13.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 838 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 996 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 112 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,398 tons, 20.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,606 tons, 34.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,364 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,850 lbs / 7,189 Kg = 23.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.607
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Stern: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Average freeboard: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.4 %
Waterplane Area: 26,912 Square feet or 2,500 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 639 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.08
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
For better seaboat quality,
- Decrease the BC
- Increase the lenght to 169m
Belt is short
;)
I'll do that later. First, a more presssing matter.
In light of the importance of the Yangtze river, I wanted to create some more River Monitor to protect those waters. Such is the result. The freeboard is a result of me basing the ship largely on the USS Monitor. I entertained the idea of a breastwork monitor, but I'm not quite sure how that would work out in SS. Well, nevertheless, the mission of this ship is bombarbment of riverline land as well as the sinking of other riverline ships.The 11" guns are most likely overkil though.
QuoteGarrison, RRC River Monitor laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
2,630 t light; 2,827 t standard; 3,017 t normal; 3,169 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
200.00 ft / 200.00 ft x 52.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
60.96 m / 60.96 m x 15.85 m x 3.66 m
Armament:
2 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (1x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline amidships
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all aft
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
Weight of broadside 1,583 lbs / 718 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 130.00 ft / 39.62 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 7.00" / 178 mm 70.00 ft / 21.34 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 808 shp / 603 Kw = 10.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 342 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
203 - 264
Cost:
£0.431 million / $1.723 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 198 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 1,182 tons, 39.2 %
- Belts: 488 tons, 16.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 178 tons, 5.9 %
- Armament: 211 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 265 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 35 tons, 1.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 965 tons, 32.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 387 tons, 12.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 8.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,838 lbs / 1,741 Kg = 5.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.83
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.846
Length to Beam Ratio: 3.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 73
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 3.00 ft / 0.91 m (6.00 ft / 1.83 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 3.00 ft / 0.91 m (6.00 ft / 1.83 m before break)
- Stern: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
- Average freeboard: 4.95 ft / 1.51 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 53.8 %
Waterplane Area: 9,551 Square feet or 887 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 89 lbs/sq ft or 433 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.51
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
I wonder why you're thinking that way...
The idea's probably sound, but I'd be thinking a pair of smaller gun turrets, and lighter but more extensive belt coverage (width and height). There are some pretty wild Soviet-era river monitors out there to look at...
I forgot to mention.
The main belts extends from the end of the forecastle to the end of the quarterdeck. The end belt extends from the end of the forecastle and quarterdeck to the ends of the ship. I did this because the midsection of the ship is 3ft higher than the forecastle and quarterdeck.
Kinda what I'd be thinking (though not Soviet-style). Armored against 4" guns - probably not against 6" considering the likely short range of engagement. Main guns superfiring in order to have height for a full barbette.
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1950
Displacement:
2,318 t light; 2,445 t standard; 2,569 t normal; 2,668 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
223.10 ft / 223.10 ft x 59.06 ft x 10.50 ft (normal load)
68.00 m / 68.00 m x 18.00 m x 3.20 m
Armament:
4 - 7.99" / 203 mm guns (2x2 guns), 255.24lbs / 115.78kg shells, 1950 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1950 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
2 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1950 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,075 lbs / 488 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 125
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 145.01 ft / 44.20 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 78.05 ft / 23.79 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 0.98" / 25 mm 145.01 ft / 44.20 m 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
- Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 2,500 shp / 1,865 Kw = 14.04 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 223 tons)
Complement:
179 - 234
Cost:
£1.589 million / $6.355 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 134 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 668 tons, 26.0 %
- Belts: 324 tons, 12.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 144 tons, 5.6 %
- Armour Deck: 184 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 66 tons, 2.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,128 tons, 43.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 251 tons, 9.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 322 tons, 12.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,497 lbs / 2,040 Kg = 17.6 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 3.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.94 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 62.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.7 %
Waterplane Area: 10,093 Square feet or 938 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 93 lbs/sq ft or 456 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.50
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Or scale up to something stranger...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/sharpj/rivbb3.png)
...which is not intended to represent the sim above, incidently.
Hmm I noticed that your design costs significantly more than mine. Regardless, I shall try to put up another design tomorrow.
Oh, hey, now there's an old friend I hadn't thought about in a while...
Logi - you're right, I buggered up the engine year.
A try at the new DD rules.
QuoteEnter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1916
Displacement:
750 t light; 774 t standard; 847 t normal; 906 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
342.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 7.00 ft (normal load)
104.24 m / 100.58 m x 9.14 m x 2.13 m
Armament:
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 128 lbs / 58 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,719 shp / 16,948 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 3,100nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 131 tons
Complement:
78 - 102
Cost:
£0.165 million / $0.661 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 16 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 4 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 438 tons, 51.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 242 tons, 28.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 97 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 5.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
229 lbs / 104 Kg = 7.1 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 10.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.12
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.74
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.428
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 38.67 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.94 ft / 3.33 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.6 %
Waterplane Area: 6,208 Square feet or 577 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 119 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.47
- Longitudinal: 0.80
- Overall: 0.50
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
A total of 35 kts with Maddox's 'fomula'
A total of 34.4768 kts with Guiness's formula
A good start, but it's the cross-sectional hull strength that needs to be at or above 0.50...
Fixed
QuoteHeng Kua, RRC Destroyer laid down 1916
Displacement:
749 t light; 773 t standard; 832 t normal; 879 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
342.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 7.00 ft (normal load)
104.24 m / 100.58 m x 9.14 m x 2.13 m
Armament:
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 128 lbs / 58 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.30" / 8 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,321 shp / 16,652 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 2,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 106 tons
Complement:
76 - 100
Cost:
£0.163 million / $0.652 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 16 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 428 tons, 51.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 252 tons, 30.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 83 tons, 9.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 6.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
234 lbs / 106 Kg = 7.3 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.12
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.74
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.420
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 38.67 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.94 ft / 3.33 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.8 %
Waterplane Area: 6,172 Square feet or 573 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 124 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.85
- Overall: 0.52
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
As promised, here is the edited 'Pocket Battleship' design
QuoteXia LouFuor, RRC Light Cruiser laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
14,786 t light; 15,420 t standard; 17,219 t normal; 18,659 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.00 ft / 545.00 ft x 70.30 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
169.16 m / 166.12 m x 21.43 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
18 - 0.93" / 23.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.40lbs / 0.18kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,000 lbs / 2,268 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 175.00 ft / 53.34 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 77,269 shp / 57,642 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,239 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
751 - 977
Cost:
£2.207 million / $8.826 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 625 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 4,786 tons, 27.8 %
- Belts: 2,715 tons, 15.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 915 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,042 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 115 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,389 tons, 19.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,686 tons, 33.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,433 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,528 lbs / 7,951 Kg = 26.3 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.605
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.55 ft / 0.47 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.08 ft / 6.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149.9 %
Waterplane Area: 28,153 Square feet or 2,615 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 632 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.74
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Since I see that the RRC navy has suprisingly few BBs, I made a design for one.
QuoteWo Pang (Peace Class), RRC Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
31,984 t light; 33,754 t standard; 36,690 t normal; 39,038 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 710.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 216.41 m x 29.26 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
12 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18,196 lbs / 8,253 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 310.00 ft / 94.49 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
4th: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 62,120 shp / 46,341 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,283 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,325 - 1,723
Cost:
£5.126 million / $20.503 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,942 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 13,161 tons, 35.9 %
- Belts: 6,034 tons, 16.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 777 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 3,177 tons, 8.7 %
- Armour Deck: 2,840 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Tower: 333 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,725 tons, 7.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,756 tons, 37.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,705 tons, 12.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
52,853 lbs / 23,974 Kg = 48.1 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 8.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.628
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.10 ft / 0.64 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.1 %
Waterplane Area: 51,167 Square feet or 4,754 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 949 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The ships as such are fine; but II will be boring and question the concept.
You said you are lacking BBs; do you not then feel that building a single huge BB that will use up a majority of your BPs for the next three years is putting a lot of eggs in a single basket?
You can get a decent small BB at about half the size, especially considering that there is not allot of first rate BBs in Asia, an even a small BB can give allot of the battlecruisers in Asia a run for their money in a stand up fight.
Some food for thought:
QuoteUmma, Firanji Battleship laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
15 500 t light; 16 493 t standard; 18 083 t normal; 19 355 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
551,18 ft / 551,18 ft x 78,74 ft x 23,74 ft (normal load)
168,00 m / 168,00 m x 24,00 m x 7,24 m
Armament:
8 - 12,99" / 330 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1 102,31lbs / 500,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
14 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 81,57lbs / 37,00kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
10 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 10 089 lbs / 4 576 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,8" / 300 mm 269,03 ft / 82,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
Ends: 2,95" / 75 mm 282,15 ft / 86,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
Upper: 2,95" / 75 mm 278,87 ft / 85,00 m 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Main Belt covers 75 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 4,72" / 120 mm 11,8" / 300 mm
2nd: 2,95" / 75 mm 2,95" / 75 mm 2,95" / 75 mm
3rd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2,95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 11,02" / 280 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 26 104 shp / 19 474 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 7 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 862 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
779 - 1 013
Cost:
£1,919 million / $7,675 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 259 tons, 7,0 %
Armour: 6 183 tons, 34,2 %
- Belts: 2 582 tons, 14,3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 1 680 tons, 9,3 %
- Armour Deck: 1 757 tons, 9,7 %
- Conning Tower: 164 tons, 0,9 %
Machinery: 1 134 tons, 6,3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 614 tons, 36,6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 583 tons, 14,3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 310 tons, 1,7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20 925 lbs / 9 491 Kg = 19,1 x 13,0 " / 330 mm shells or 2,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 4,2 ft / 1,3 m
Roll period: 16,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,614
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Mid (50 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,76 ft / 4,20 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75,1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103,2 %
Waterplane Area: 32 170 Square feet or 2 989 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 752 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,99
- Longitudinal: 1,10
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Lack of TDS considering the opposition (MK TBs and DDs) is not a good idea IMHO.
QuoteFreeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Mid (50 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,76 ft / 4,20 m
strange freeboard for the stern ???
------------------
Peru had also small BBs designs
- Panzerschiffs Jef ?
- Yes but stronger & with BB protection.
:D :D :D
A different version of the Peace Class BB
NOT a practical design, a design for future BBs...
Originally I had planned to use sloped belts but decided against it (too much work). The ship is shaped like US Battleships - winebottle. The unique shape is reflected in the quarterdeck, midbreak, and forecastle percentages.
Like Mike's ship, this BB uses multiple FCS. The exception is that it is two BB FCS control the turrents aft and forward. There is only one Cruiser FCS controlling the secondary battery.
QuoteOnjing (Quiet), RRC Battleship laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
33,237 t light; 34,954 t standard; 37,489 t normal; 39,518 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.00 ft / 690.00 ft x 96.00 ft (Bulges 106.00 ft) x 30.00 ft (normal load)
219.46 m / 210.31 m x 29.26 m (Bulges 32.31 m) x 9.14 m
Armament:
12 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 38.40lbs / 17.42kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in broadside mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 17,118 lbs / 7,765 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 290.00 ft / 88.39 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Upper: 10.0" / 254 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
4th: 4.00" / 102 mm 3.00" / 76 mm -
5th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 16.00" / 406 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 63,817 shp / 47,607 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,564 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,346 - 1,751
Cost:
£6.079 million / $24.317 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,798 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 14,275 tons, 38.1 %
- Belts: 6,829 tons, 18.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,036 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 3,340 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,684 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Tower: 386 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,615 tons, 7.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,849 tons, 36.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,252 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 700 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,390 lbs / 25,125 Kg = 50.4 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 10.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 18.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.598
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.51 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (31 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (56 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (22 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136.9 %
Waterplane Area: 48,356 Square feet or 4,492 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 978 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.20
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Next up are the Pocket BB designs....
Pocket BB
QuoteTurWo Jiunren (Veteran), RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
14,120 t light; 14,936 t standard; 16,710 t normal; 18,129 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 21.34 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
6 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,098.50lbs / 498.27kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 38.40lbs / 17.42kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,307 lbs / 3,768 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 207.00 ft / 63.09 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
5th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40,424 shp / 30,156 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,193 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
734 - 955
Cost:
£2.629 million / $10.516 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,029 tons, 6.2 %
Armour: 4,925 tons, 29.5 %
- Belts: 2,718 tons, 16.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 983 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,055 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 169 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,773 tons, 10.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,994 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,590 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,169 lbs / 8,241 Kg = 16.5 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.96 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111.0 %
Waterplane Area: 28,517 Square feet or 2,649 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 710 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
The big one is underwhelming - I can get 29kts, 12x13.5" on like 35000t.
The second-class BB stands no chance due to weak armor.
You need ships like Korpen suggested, but with TDS - 8x33cm 21kts on 16-18000t. Fast BBs might be too much of a luxury for RRC.
The advice on TDS is noted, but what do you mean by 'fast' battleships?
The battleline speed for the RRC is 24kts. By all means these battleships are standard speed.
Where can I find post about which BB designs are getting built?
Quote from: P3D on January 12, 2009, 08:25:37 PM
Where can I find post about which BB designs are getting built?
He hasnt built any yet... He decided that his fleet speed should be 24 knots (still not sure why)
Well as Tan said....
Pocket BB design
(unfortunately the tonnage skyrockted so I had to skimp on certain things)
QuoteTurWo Jiunren (Veteran), RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
19,245 t light; 20,475 t standard; 22,542 t normal; 24,196 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
600.00 ft / 600.00 ft x 80.00 ft (Bulges 85.00 ft) x 26.00 ft (normal load)
182.88 m / 182.88 m x 24.38 m (Bulges 25.91 m) x 7.92 m
Armament:
8 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 10 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 13,464 lbs / 6,107 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.50" / 38 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
4th: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
5th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,174 shp / 35,938 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,721 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
919 - 1,195
Cost:
£3.590 million / $14.361 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,461 tons, 6.5 %
Armour: 6,896 tons, 30.6 %
- Belts: 3,604 tons, 16.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 500 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 1,311 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,293 tons, 5.7 %
- Conning Tower: 189 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,092 tons, 9.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,396 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,297 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,638 lbs / 10,722 Kg = 21.5 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 3.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 17.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.595
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (30 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.6 %
Waterplane Area: 34,943 Square feet or 3,246 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 836 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Edited to include TDS.
6", 5" AND 4" weapons? 42 such weapons? If any ship is at risk to a secondary explosion its this one. We won't even go into where all would be fit...
I STRONGLY suggest that you trim things back some. It should free enough displacement to get superfiring on one or more of the 13" weapons.
Michael
In my own drawing, its all clutered on the superstructure, probably not the best idea...
QuoteI STRONGLY suggest that you trim things back some. It should free enough displacement to get superfiring on one or more of the 13" weapons.
I will trim them back. However, I don't need to get superfiring on the 13" turrets, there are only two! They are quad 13"s
I agree, too much & various secondary guns also too much protection for them
- 2 x quad turrets I presume (?)
- Main belt is short
;)
You might want to reconsider the 24kts battleline speed, but up to you.
Put the 6"s into the casemates (deck level), forget the 5"s and have the 4"s raised (on sides not centerline). Increase upper belt height to cover casemates. Might limit upper belt length to 300'.
Increase main belt thickness to 12"-13" and height to 12-13' (to 5-6' depth below WL)
Might increase deck to 2.5".
Do not use bulges - such would suggest a tumblehome configuration.
The TDS should have the same length as the main belt.
Cut the range to 6000@12, coal takes up a lot of space.
Try to get the ship into 550-557'x90'x28-29'.
Edited:
QuoteTurWo Jiunren (Veteran), RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
18,151 t light; 19,279 t standard; 20,777 t normal; 21,975 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 25.91 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
8 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 10 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 12,464 lbs / 5,653 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 340.00 ft / 103.63 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 210.00 ft / 64.01 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 340.00 ft / 103.63 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 340.00 ft / 103.63 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 28,724 shp / 21,428 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,696 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
864 - 1,124
Cost:
£3.162 million / $12.649 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,336 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 7,441 tons, 35.8 %
- Belts: 4,089 tons, 19.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 704 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 1,177 tons, 5.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,292 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 179 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,247 tons, 6.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,727 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,626 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24,393 lbs / 11,064 Kg = 22.2 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.622
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (30 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.0 %
Waterplane Area: 34,906 Square feet or 3,243 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 831 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.16
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
You don't have the quad turret tech. So you need 4 turrets with at least one superfiring - otherwise there's not much space left for deck mounts.
Increasing the draft will save you a few hundred tons.
It's a bit strange that the 4"s are in casemates and the 6"s are deck mounts.
The end belts are an interesting option, but it could be classified as an RRC trademark (i.e. all the hull is armored against small-caliber gunfire).
Upper belt, as it is (above configuration), does not really protect anything vital (like casemated guns with 2" armor). You could decrease it to 3".
I will have the quad turrets tech very soon. I will finish the guns long before the ship itself is completed.
Other points noted.
You can start researching quad turret tech 1915H2 (triple turret tech done 1914H2).
Finish it in 1917.
Or get the Quad Turret tech from someone Orange and done it in a year.
Then spend 2 years to develop the gun turret.
Lay down ship after it is all done - 1918-19.
I'm getting the tech for some one and expect to finish 1916/H1, so I would finish the turrent design in 1917/H2
If I started building the ship in 1916/H1, I would finish it 1918/H2
Pushing it backwards to 1917/H1 (laid down), I would finish it 1919/H2 (well after the turret was built)
You need to have the quad turret (not only the tech!) developed BEFORE you lay down the ship.
I see
Here is the modified design (still with quad turrets)
QuoteTurWo Jiunren (Veteran), RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
17,182 t light; 18,289 t standard; 19,726 t normal; 20,876 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 25.91 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
8 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 12,464 lbs / 5,653 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
Upper: 3.00" / 76 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 27,243 shp / 20,324 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,587 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
831 - 1,081
Cost:
£3.092 million / $12.368 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,336 tons, 6.8 %
Armour: 6,721 tons, 34.1 %
- Belts: 3,363 tons, 17.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 725 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 1,231 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,228 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 173 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,183 tons, 6.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,542 tons, 38.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,544 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,791 lbs / 10,338 Kg = 20.7 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.568
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (30 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.9 %
Waterplane Area: 33,182 Square feet or 3,083 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 839 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
TB design:
QuoteXA1C Type, RRC Torepdo Boat laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
496 t light; 507 t standard; 536 t normal; 559 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 5.00 ft (normal load)
91.44 m / 91.44 m x 9.14 m x 1.52 m
Armament:
1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 15 lbs / 7 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,326 shp / 13,671 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 900nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 51 tons (100% coal)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
55 - 72
Cost:
£0.089 million / $0.356 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 302 tons, 56.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 184 tons, 34.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 40 tons, 7.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 8 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
163 lbs / 74 Kg = 12.6 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.51
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.417
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 99
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Mid (50 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.61 ft / 2.93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.8 %
Waterplane Area: 5,599 Square feet or 520 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 33 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 114 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.69
- Overall: 0.51
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability
Max speed of 35kts
You still cannot build the ship until you have the quad 13" turrets developed, check construction rules.
Did I not make it clear I understood?
I'm not going to build the ship with quads, yet.
Boredom makes weird ships, not exactly practical, just weird.
QuoteEnter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
28,594 t light; 30,290 t standard; 31,921 t normal; 33,225 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 89.00 ft x 36.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 27.13 m x 10.97 m
Armament:
9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
10 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1917 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 12,556 lbs / 5,695 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 20.0" / 508 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 41.00 ft / 12.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 21.0" / 533 mm 12.0" / 305 mm 19.0" / 483 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 20.00" / 508 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,743 shp / 15,475 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,935 tons
Complement:
1,193 - 1,552
Cost:
£4.033 million / $16.131 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,320 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 16,962 tons, 53.1 %
- Belts: 8,140 tons, 25.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 2,086 tons, 6.5 %
- Armament: 2,884 tons, 9.0 %
- Armour Deck: 3,418 tons, 10.7 %
- Conning Tower: 434 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 773 tons, 2.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,990 tons, 28.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,327 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 549 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
56,511 lbs / 25,633 Kg = 51.4 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 13.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.634
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.18 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (70 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 88.5 %
Waterplane Area: 36,950 Square feet or 3,433 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 832 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.76
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: Logi on January 14, 2009, 03:18:12 PM
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,326 shp / 13,671 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 900nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 51 tons (100% coal)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Nice speed, but it needs at least three times as long range to be usable as anything but a decoration in port.
Will work on that design sometime later.
The revival of the RRC Transports - pure transport style!
QuoteMaddox, RRC Transport Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
2,807 t light; 2,873 t standard; 3,300 t normal; 3,642 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
350.00 ft / 350.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
106.68 m / 106.68 m x 15.24 m x 3.66 m
Armament:
8 - 0.00" / 0.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.00lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all forward
Weight of broadside 0 lbs / 0 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,787 shp / 4,317 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 769 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
217 - 283
Cost:
£0.195 million / $0.778 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 254 tons, 7.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 933 tons, 28.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 493 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,620 tons, 49.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,844 lbs / 2,197 Kg = 44.8 x 0.0 " / 0 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.41
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.9 %
Waterplane Area: 12,213 Square feet or 1,135 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 155 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 278 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.04
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
810 troops - Long-Range
An idea I was toying around with.
A CDS with standard range.
Quote???, RRC Small Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
13,514 t light; 14,274 t standard; 15,987 t normal; 17,358 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
475.00 ft / 475.00 ft x 76.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
144.78 m / 144.78 m x 23.16 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
6 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns in single mounts, 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,920 lbs / 3,592 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 175.00 ft / 53.34 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 16.00" / 406 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14,154 shp / 10,559 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,084 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
710 - 924
Cost:
£2.049 million / $8.195 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 824 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 6,613 tons, 41.4 %
- Belts: 2,972 tons, 18.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 666 tons, 4.2 %
- Armament: 1,263 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,493 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 219 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 621 tons, 3.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,056 tons, 31.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,473 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24,672 lbs / 11,191 Kg = 22.5 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 5.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.620
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.79 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.8 %
Waterplane Area: 26,899 Square feet or 2,499 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 676 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.32
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Its not a bad design but there are some "issues" with it... A Sextuple turret isn't pratical even if you are trying to make some downsized Tillman knock of.
I would suggest a pair of twins and some quick firing secondaries 5" as anti TB protection.
Michael
Quote from: miketr on January 27, 2009, 07:47:14 AM
Its not a bad design but there are some "issues" with it... A Sextuple turret isn't pratical even if you are trying to make some downsized Tillman knock of.
I would suggest a pair of twins and some quick firing secondaries 5" as anti TB protection.
Michael
It is not a six-gun turret, it is six single-gun turrets. Which is just as weird I think, so your points are true.
AH! My bad, I realized I forgot to change the turret number.
Here's the corrected version.
Quote???, RRC Small Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
12,748 t light; 13,416 t standard; 15,067 t normal; 16,388 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
450.00 ft / 450.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
137.16 m / 137.16 m x 22.86 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
6 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,098.50lbs / 498.27kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,591 lbs / 2,990 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 150.00 ft / 45.72 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 16.00" / 406 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, ERROR: no steam engines,
No drive to shaft, 2 shafts, 13,891 shp / 10,363 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,973 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
679 - 883
Cost:
£1.863 million / $7.450 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 824 tons, 5.5 %
Armour: 6,625 tons, 44.0 %
- Belts: 3,444 tons, 22.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 666 tons, 4.4 %
- Armament: 902 tons, 6.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,402 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 210 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,899 tons, 32.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,319 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28,351 lbs / 12,860 Kg = 25.8 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 7.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.625
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.1 %
Waterplane Area: 25,265 Square feet or 2,347 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 694 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
There are no engines in that ship... other than that, it's a mighty respectable coastal defense ship. ;)
It will defend its anchorage quite well, I'm sure.
Fixed
Quote???, RRC Small Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
13,660 t light; 14,423 t standard; 16,146 t normal; 17,524 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
450.00 ft / 450.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
137.16 m / 137.16 m x 22.86 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,920 lbs / 3,592 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 150.00 ft / 45.72 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14,548 shp / 10,853 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,101 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
716 - 931
Cost:
£2.061 million / $8.244 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 824 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 6,571 tons, 40.7 %
- Belts: 3,248 tons, 20.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 688 tons, 4.3 %
- Armament: 1,001 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,427 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 206 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 638 tons, 4.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,228 tons, 32.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,486 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24,406 lbs / 11,070 Kg = 22.2 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.644
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 88.9 %
Waterplane Area: 25,712 Square feet or 2,389 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 723 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.66
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
It's a good start - I would suggest perhaps reducing the main belt height to ~4.5 metres, and using the weight saving for a secondary and AA battery, and a bit more freeboard.
The uniformly straight flush deck looks odd to me. I suspect there are weight savings to be had there as well. If you need to find weight somewhere, this ship could probably get by with either a little bit thinner or a shorter torpedo bulkhead as well.
shave the Main belt to 16' instead of 18', reduce the TB to 1.5" instead of 2" should save you enough weight to add some secondaries.
@Guiness
I design all my ships as straight flush decks - the majority are uniformly straight flush decks. I'm not aware of any weight savings that can be made in such as area, care to inform me?
Quote???, RRC Small Battleship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
13,284 t light; 14,075 t standard; 15,770 t normal; 17,126 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
450.00 ft / 450.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
137.16 m / 137.16 m x 22.86 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 8,456 lbs / 3,836 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 150.00 ft / 45.72 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14,274 shp / 10,648 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,051 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
703 - 914
Cost:
£2.129 million / $8.515 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 891 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 6,128 tons, 38.9 %
- Belts: 2,929 tons, 18.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 516 tons, 3.3 %
- Armament: 1,073 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,407 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 203 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 626 tons, 4.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,239 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,486 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,112 lbs / 10,030 Kg = 20.1 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.629
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 89.3 %
Waterplane Area: 25,359 Square feet or 2,356 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 733 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Well, there's a reason that OTL ships often have higher stems than sterns, step downs or "breaks" in hulls, etc. It has a lot to do with the mechanics of moving a ship through the sea, etc. P3D could explain a lot better than me, I'm sure.
As an experiment though, you might consider experimenting with the freeboard numbers, by (for instance) raising the stem a bit, and lowering the stern, so that that the freeboard deck runs at a slant instead of parallel to a calm sea. You might find that you can keep an acceptable freeboard number, while also getting more weight to use for other things.
The common BB hull of the period OTL often had three decks (aka approx 24 feet) forward, and two decks (approx 16 feet aft), with a "break" somewhere in the middle.
Your 13 feet of freeboard all the way across may work fine from springsharp's point of view, but I suspect that it's less than optimal for a real ship. For one thing, when the ship rolls in a sea, it's more likely that the deck might become awash toward the low part of the roll, which is less desirable.
One last thing to consider too is this: with a 26 foot draft, and 13 feet of freeboard, your total hull depth is 39 feet. It may be (and not being a structural engineer, I don't have the knowledge to calculate this, but rather am going on feel here) that the hull gurder, ie the overall structure of the hull in this case, is less than optimal for distributing the loads of the hull. Generally making a ship deeper, meaning the whole structure not just the draft adds to the load carrying capability of the ship, at least up to a point. Food for thought, at least.
I don't think there is anything wrong with a uniform 13 foot freeboard, at least from the perspective of our game and it's rules. It's just that I know there are reasons why ships weren't usually designed that way OTL.
Adidng to that - it's not just rolling that will have the deck awash - damage-induced listing will do the same. Then you've got to worry about water getting inside through openings on the deck.
Just a design study but feed back would be appreciated
QuoteNorth Wind, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
24,627 t light; 25,872 t standard; 27,883 t normal; 29,492 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
778.86 ft / 765.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
237.40 m / 233.17 m x 25.91 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 12,264 lbs / 5,563 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
65.00 ft / 19.81 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 3.00" / 76 mm 700.00 ft / 213.36 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 27.30 kts
Range 3,300nm at 20.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Range 1,482nm at 27.30 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,620 tons
Complement:
1,078 - 1,402
Cost:
£4.287 million / $17.147 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,284 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 8,784 tons, 31.5 %
- Belts: 4,534 tons, 16.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,685 tons, 6.0 %
- Armour Deck: 2,486 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 79 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,981 tons, 10.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,179 tons, 40.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,255 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36,166 lbs / 16,405 Kg = 32.9 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.536
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 17.60 ft / 5.36 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.2 %
Waterplane Area: 44,790 Square feet or 4,161 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 855 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.01
- Longitudinal: 0.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Strikes me as a nicely balanced design - i.e. very dual purpose - can effectively support light forces or stand in the battle line - good BCs should be very useful in being able to do both
A few minor points:
No Torpedo bulkhead - there isn't a lot of scope on an 85' beam - but some prot'n here seems in order - possibly more valuable than the thin upper belt? - which won't stop anything serious at effective battle ranges
? - impact on speed of 95' beam which will allow more TDS?
- really depends on the threat environment you envisage - but as a large, capable and pretty fast ship she will be useful for 20+ years - so this will evolve ...
Secondaries - only 12 x 4 " seems a bit light for her size, 16 guns is better and 4.7"- 5.5" is best to stop TBDs
Small detail - no 'close in' or AA guns are specified - but easily sorted
Any chance of a Pic - I imagine she deserves one and would really like to see :) ...
Two notes -
There's no need for the secondary battery to be all-raised. In fact, with the hull that long, there's probably enough room for all of the secondaries to be at deck level.
Since your cross-sectional hull strength exceeds your longitudinal hull strength, you could probably raise the freeboard a bit. Shouldn't cost you any hull strength, and would gain you a bit of seakeeping.
Picture will come later, just because you specially requested it :D
Changes:
- reduced bunkerage
- decreased upper belt thickness
- reduced main battery armour
- reduced speed
+ increased number and caliber of secondary battery
+ increased Block Coefficent
+ added TDS
QuoteNorth Wind, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
25,416 t light; 26,736 t standard; 28,611 t normal; 30,111 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
788.00 ft / 765.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
240.18 m / 233.17 m x 25.91 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 13,220 lbs / 5,996 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
65.00 ft / 19.81 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.00" / 25 mm 700.00 ft / 213.36 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 27.15 kts
Range 3,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,375 tons
Complement:
1,099 - 1,429
Cost:
£4.519 million / $18.077 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,403 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 9,174 tons, 32.1 %
- Belts: 4,259 tons, 14.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 666 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 1,650 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,519 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 81 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,981 tons, 10.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,458 tons, 40.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,195 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37,571 lbs / 17,042 Kg = 34.2 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 39.40 degrees
Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 18.81 ft / 5.73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.3 %
Waterplane Area: 45,380 Square feet or 4,216 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 856 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
85 feet beam is narrow for a TDS.
The first dreadnought had TDS with less than 85' beam. Although not with triple 13" turrets. Increase it to 90' and Maddox should not find any problem with it. ;)
On the TDS - I'm not expert on SS but since it only asks for the Torp Blkhd to be specified not the TDS space - it seems to give a benefit from the Bulkhead regardless of whether the space is there or not - hence calls from mod of needing 90' beam - I still think it is a good deal and will reduce length-beam ratio to 8.5 which is more true historically - similar to Renown/Repulse?
Capability wise she looks like a good all-rounder to me - a good baseline design - but given it is a design study there are alternatives to explore:
A - Optimised for the Battle Line:
6 x 13" (3 x 2) + will help make space for a TDS
16 x 4.7" (sufficient vs TBDs)
Inc. armour - only need +1.5" on belt + turrets, maybe 1" on barbettes to reach respectable BB standard
Hopefully can still make 26.5-27 knots
- a smallish but capable Fast BB - can Scout ahead and head the line as well - doubling up on the enemy flagship
B - Optimised vs ACs or less and can handle multiple Mdm Targets:
9/8 x 11" (again helps with TDS on the narrow beam)
10 x 6.7" (2 x 2 on each side, 1 x 2 in X superfiring) - very effective vs. smaller cruisers
12 x 4.7" or 4" for closer up
Belt + Turret armour reduced by 2"?
Aim for 27.5/28 knots
A bigger version of the nverse Scharnhorst/Gneisenau - think they were very neat but getting old now
Which raises the key Qns - what's she for and what does the potential opposition look like?
This ship is an all-round worker. Although it might mostly be tracking down ACs it can also handle BBs and BCs if it comes to it. Well in the Pacific there's really not alot of BBs although they are plenty of BCs and ACs. The BCs whom this ship might face are usually more lightly armed and just a tad slower. The ACs and CLs it might face are just slightly faster (or alot slower). The best bonus is that this ship carries heavier armaments than any other nation in the East Pacific. (Well maybe not the European nations and their colonies)
Changes:
+ increased beam
+ increased speed
+ increased bunkerage
+ increased freeboard
- reduced block coefficient
QuoteNorth Wind, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
26,388 t light; 27,730 t standard; 29,743 t normal; 31,353 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
788.00 ft / 765.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
240.18 m / 233.17 m x 27.43 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 13,220 lbs / 5,996 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
65.00 ft / 19.81 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.00" / 25 mm 700.00 ft / 213.36 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 89,500 shp / 66,767 Kw = 27.77 kts
Range 3,152nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,623 tons
Complement:
1,132 - 1,472
Cost:
£4.671 million / $18.685 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,403 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 9,344 tons, 31.4 %
- Belts: 4,278 tons, 14.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 666 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 1,675 tons, 5.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,642 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 83 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,335 tons, 11.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,906 tons, 40.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,356 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,342 lbs / 17,392 Kg = 34.9 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 39.40 degrees
Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 19.08 ft / 5.81 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.7 %
Waterplane Area: 47,602 Square feet or 4,422 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 866 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.02
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Will try out the alternatives.
Variant A
vs BB
QuoteNorth Wind, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
24,624 t light; 25,674 t standard; 27,675 t normal; 29,275 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
788.00 ft / 765.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
240.18 m / 233.17 m x 25.91 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
6 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 8,764 lbs / 3,975 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
65.00 ft / 19.81 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.00" / 25 mm 700.00 ft / 213.36 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 100,128 shp / 74,695 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 3,300nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,601 tons
Complement:
1,072 - 1,394
Cost:
£3.936 million / $15.744 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 929 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 9,485 tons, 34.3 %
- Belts: 4,886 tons, 17.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 888 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 1,156 tons, 4.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,477 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 79 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,731 tons, 13.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,079 tons, 36.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,051 tons, 11.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,303 lbs / 17,374 Kg = 34.9 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.532
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 39.40 degrees
Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 19.08 ft / 5.81 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.2 %
Waterplane Area: 44,623 Square feet or 4,146 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 761 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Variant B
vs Cruisers
QuoteNorth Wind, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
24,643 t light; 25,670 t standard; 28,091 t normal; 30,027 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
790.00 ft / 765.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
240.79 m / 233.17 m x 25.91 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,062 lbs / 3,657 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 510.00 ft / 155.45 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 190.00 ft / 57.91 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
65.00 ft / 19.81 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 700.00 ft / 213.36 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 510.00 ft / 155.45 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 120,000 shp / 89,520 Kw = 30.29 kts
Range 4,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,357 tons
Complement:
1,084 - 1,410
Cost:
£4.040 million / $16.160 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 873 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 8,587 tons, 30.6 %
- Belts: 3,907 tons, 13.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 679 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 1,367 tons, 4.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,495 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 139 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 4,471 tons, 15.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,312 tons, 36.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,448 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,672 lbs / 15,727 Kg = 52.1 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 38.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 19.94 ft / 6.08 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.4 %
Waterplane Area: 44,957 Square feet or 4,177 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 767 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.03
- Longitudinal: 0.98
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Variant C
Increased Size of Variant B for Increased weapon - vs. BB
QuoteNorth Wind, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
27,757 t light; 29,251 t standard; 31,868 t normal; 33,961 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
790.00 ft / 765.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
240.79 m / 233.17 m x 27.43 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 15,073 lbs / 6,837 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
65.00 ft / 19.81 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.00" / 25 mm 700.00 ft / 213.36 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78,000 shp / 58,188 Kw = 26.50 kts
Range 4,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,710 tons
Complement:
1,192 - 1,550
Cost:
£4.959 million / $19.837 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,606 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 10,088 tons, 31.7 %
- Belts: 4,476 tons, 14.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 624 tons, 2.0 %
- Armament: 2,172 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,642 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 173 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,906 tons, 9.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,577 tons, 39.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,111 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 580 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,992 lbs / 19,047 Kg = 30.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 38.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 19.67 ft / 5.99 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.1 %
Waterplane Area: 47,602 Square feet or 4,422 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 894 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.07
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Variant C...
Stop right THERE, cause I think you have a winner!
Hi RAM - great work and fascinating comparison:
Trying to summarise, you can choose:
A and B - 8000lb broadside configured vs BBs or ACs/less - at 29-30 knots for GBP4m (but need to check TDS is OK on 85' beam given the reduced main armament)
(also option B - pity there is no current 170mm option but I understand is no longer available)
OR
C - 15000lb broadside !! (impressive for her size) - with 26.5 knots for GBP4.9m (but maybe some NEDS issues on this one - could drop maybe 2 tertiary turrets to sort it)
OR
Original - 13000lb broadside - at almost 28 knots for GBP4.6m
Sorry Logi - got mixed up on my threads (ms is busy downloading more unnecessary **** into my laptop - screwing it and me up!!)
Cheers
Had a chance for a longer look.
Option C does look very attractive in terms of firepower - and actually has similar characteristics to the Mackensen - prob. best WW1 BC design of all
I think it might be a tight squeeze to fit everything in - but there is the possibility of going back to the 16 x 5.5s - with 8 x 14s - that's formidable
Is C your best fit to requirements?
A few remaining thoughts on improving the others, since their higher speeds will be very useful in a 20+ year lifetime:
Option A - seems cutting back to 3 twin 13s was overdoing it, she lacks punch - 8 x 13s in a 233 arrangement might fit in the narrow beam with the TDS - but looks a bit unconventional
Option B (the Cruiser Killer) - with no 170mm available, a modern 190 mm may be possible and increases the broadside (I notice your 11" is quite big at 800lb - so there is still a ratio of 4:1 in Shell Wt) Also easier to fit in everything if the the 8 x 11" are just 3 turrets - 323
I think this one makes a great Flagship for Light Forces or World Cruises!! - depends if you like showing off or not ...
But no need to Sim if they're not relevant for you :).
Hmmm C, I kinda but threw that design out for fun (I was thinking of Bismarck at the time though) But the positive response to the ship is encouraging. I *might* acutally build that shp sometime later (of course with proper adjustments.
About siming the others ships, I would always do so, its better to see how it works out. Unfortunately, I don't have time today.
Mackensen and Bismarck is an interesting theme - to some extent Bismarck is the expanded WW2 equivalent of Mackensen
Also - Hood was built in reponse to Mackensen - and Bismarck partly built with Hood in mind
You know, I kinda liked Option B best for RRC. I'd like her even better with additional 120mm in place of the 150mm, since the additional lighter guns would be good for tackling swarms of Middle Kingdom torpedo-boats.
Sorry for the delay
Pic of the original design (design with TDS)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Logi_Hack/NorthWind.png)
The line on the top and side view is a measure for 1000 ft
The pics are neat - esp the sloping flush deck - gives very fast and elegant look - very BC!
The Superstructure is unusual - any particular reason for the large raised section on the big tripod (?) structure. Does look rather top heavy - Jean Bart had something looked a bit like that but was a lot smaller.
How about integrating the 'tripod' and 'topbox' into the rear of the fwd superstructure - giving mutual support
Also - would give more space for funnels - looks like current funnels - very close together would involve a lot of trunking / all boilers together - bad for damage control.
Any further thoughts on the different Options?
QuoteThe Superstructure is unusual - any particular reason for the large raised section on the big tripod (?) structure. Does look rather top heavy - Jean Bart had something looked a bit like that but was a lot smaller.
The forward big tripod structure just came out that way. It was supposed to be smaller. I guess I'll see what I can do to fix the picture.
QuoteHow about integrating the 'tripod' and 'topbox' into the rear of the fwd superstructure - giving mutual support
Will look into it.
QuoteAlso - would give more space for funnels - looks like current funnels - very close together would involve a lot of trunking / all boilers together - bad for damage control.
There was a lack of space on the ship. However fixing the forward bridge's size should fix this.
Place the tripod on the bridge to have the funnels more forward.
;)
An idea I had, purpose is to provide cover fire during a landing on a port. I have a feeling this will get an NEDS but I'm not too sure.
Arrangement of guns
T T
T - T - S - F - T - F - T - F - S - T - T
T T
T= Turret S= Superstructure F = Funnel
QuoteBombardier, RRC Port Assault Ship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
409 t light; 450 t standard; 725 t normal; 945 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 6.00 ft (normal load)
91.44 m / 91.44 m x 9.14 m x 1.83 m
Armament:
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 129 lbs / 58 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,402 shp / 2,538 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 496 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
69 - 90
Cost:
£0.080 million / $0.319 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 16 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 45 tons, 6.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 45 tons, 6.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 149 tons, 20.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 174 tons, 24.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 316 tons, 43.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 3.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
852 lbs / 386 Kg = 66.2 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.94
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 8.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.41
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.470
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Stern: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 9.01 ft / 2.74 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.7 %
Waterplane Area: 5,838 Square feet or 542 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 146 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 103 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.51
- Longitudinal: 0.50
- Overall: 0.51
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Trial Speed: 21.15 kts
That's a nasty piece of work. A sloop ideal for river purposes.
Yes - agree with above - a little porcupine - and given she will be in the thick of things as well as the great handling characteristics - I think there might be scope to add a little splinter protection to the bridge and say 2 small CTs - as well as possibly upgrading the centreline ends to be 4" - for a bit extra firepower and range
Its going to double in weight with that stuff added, I don't care for the extra weight. I'm pretty sure I don't have a 4" gun only a 120mm one, I could be wrong though.
The point is these ships could be mass produced to bombard the harbour or land (whatever they are).
But here's the ss with the suggestions anyways. (btw what are CTs? Forgive my question)
QuoteBombardier, RRC Port Assault Ship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
884 t light; 979 t standard; 1,377 t normal; 1,695 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
91.44 m / 91.44 m x 9.14 m x 2.74 m
Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 368 lbs / 167 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 0.50" / 13 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,183 shp / 3,867 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 716 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
112 - 146
Cost:
£0.166 million / $0.664 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 46 tons, 3.3 %
Armour: 354 tons, 25.7 %
- Belts: 222 tons, 16.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 66 tons, 4.8 %
- Armour Deck: 61 tons, 4.4 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 227 tons, 16.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 231 tons, 16.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 493 tons, 35.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,182 lbs / 536 Kg = 22.4 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.71
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 8.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.595
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Stern: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 9.01 ft / 2.74 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.3 %
Waterplane Area: 6,552 Square feet or 609 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.51
- Longitudinal: 0.51
- Overall: 0.51
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
CT= conning tower.
With so much guns, why not remove the 75mm's and replace them with machine gun nests- I know the MK has a nice 25mm twin, and use the weight and space freed for a destroyer FC setup?
with the 4 75mm's removed and the machine guns in superfiring positions, the midships becomes available for an extra 120mm gun.
Also, the MK has the following guns.
10mm rifle
25mm heavy machine gun
75mm QF
105mm QF
140mm BL L45
195 BL L45 (French pattern- Phoenix has a story somewere about these guns)
250mm BL L35- also used on the many railguns the MK had
330mm BL L35 - ACM Macau technology- if you capture the arsenal and manufactoring capacity and the people willingly working it , it tends to boost the R&D.
hmm I'm also sure they have a 120mm, I've seen it on many of their ships.
I will try the design tomorrow.
I'd thin the shields on the 75 mms a little bit to save weight for a CT. 3" is probably overkill for the planned environment. 2.5" or 2" should suffice against all small arms and splinters.
Fun topic - and you seem very serious on your intents in this direction - 'can be mass produced'
Given that - why not go for a hi-low mix?
'Nasty' Bombardier - 500 ton version - for close in work
6 x 75mmQF (on the centre lines) - very quick rate of fire
4 x 25mm Hvy Cannon MGs - in the wing positions
+ vs original spec. might need an MG proof Upper Belt - 30mm - as well as light Bridge/CT protn
'Baaaddd' Bombardier - 1000 ton version - to back up little Bro'
4 x 105mm QF superfiring centreline ends and amidships
4 x 75mm QF wing positions
+ For indirect fire needs - (impt for some land targets) - 2 Large Mortars (6"?) - centreline ends
Say have 3 of each of these - and team them up in pairs ... ... very Rambo ...
@ Maddox
The ship already has 25t allocated to a destroy FC ;)
Here's the design with your suggestions:
QuoteBombardier, RRC Port Assault Ship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
874 t light; 970 t standard; 1,365 t normal; 1,682 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
91.44 m / 91.44 m x 9.14 m x 2.74 m
Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
3 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 373 lbs / 169 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 0.50" / 13 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,146 shp / 3,839 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 712 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
112 - 146
Cost:
£0.166 million / $0.663 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 47 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 346 tons, 25.4 %
- Belts: 222 tons, 16.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 59 tons, 4.3 %
- Armour Deck: 60 tons, 4.4 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 226 tons, 16.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 231 tons, 16.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 491 tons, 36.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,161 lbs / 527 Kg = 22.0 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.70
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 9.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.590
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Stern: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 9.01 ft / 2.74 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.8 %
Waterplane Area: 6,521 Square feet or 606 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.51
- Longitudinal: 0.51
- Overall: 0.51
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
@ guinness
I was thinking about that. here the design with YOUR suggestions:
QuoteBombardier, RRC Port Assault Ship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
849 t light; 944 t standard; 1,333 t normal; 1,644 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
91.44 m / 91.44 m x 9.14 m x 2.74 m
Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 368 lbs / 167 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 0.50" / 13 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,042 shp / 3,762 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 700 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
109 - 143
Cost:
£0.163 million / $0.650 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 46 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 331 tons, 24.8 %
- Belts: 222 tons, 16.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 44 tons, 3.3 %
- Armour Deck: 60 tons, 4.5 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 221 tons, 16.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 226 tons, 17.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 484 tons, 36.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,132 lbs / 513 Kg = 21.5 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.71
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 8.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.37
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.576
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Stern: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 9.01 ft / 2.74 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.2 %
Waterplane Area: 6,436 Square feet or 598 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 115 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.51
- Longitudinal: 0.52
- Overall: 0.51
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
@ mentat
Close in Work Bombardier
QuoteBombardier, RRC Port Assault Ship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
500 t light; 532 t standard; 824 t normal; 1,058 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 7.00 ft (normal load)
91.44 m / 91.44 m x 9.14 m x 2.13 m
Armament:
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 81 lbs / 37 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.20" / 30 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,620 shp / 2,701 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 526 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
76 - 100
Cost:
£0.079 million / $0.316 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 10 tons, 1.2 %
Armour: 131 tons, 15.9 %
- Belts: 107 tons, 12.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 21 tons, 2.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 159 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 175 tons, 21.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 324 tons, 39.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 3.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
966 lbs / 438 Kg = 75.1 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.66
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 9.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.07
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.46
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.458
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Stern: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 9.01 ft / 2.74 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.5 %
Waterplane Area: 5,779 Square feet or 537 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 149 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 101 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.51
- Longitudinal: 0.51
- Overall: 0.51
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
'Baaaddd' Bombardier
QuoteBombardier, RRC Port Assault Ship laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,101 t standard; 1,515 t normal; 1,846 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 11.00 ft (normal load)
91.44 m / 91.44 m x 9.14 m x 3.35 m
Armament:
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 360 lbs / 163 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Ends: 1.00" / 25 mm 100.00 ft / 30.48 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,338 shp / 3,982 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 745 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
120 - 157
Cost:
£0.173 million / $0.691 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 45 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 162 tons, 10.7 %
- Belts: 122 tons, 8.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 37 tons, 2.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 234 tons, 15.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 459 tons, 30.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 515 tons, 34.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 6.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,960 lbs / 889 Kg = 55.5 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.536
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Mid (50 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Stern: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 8.09 ft / 2.46 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76.0 %
Waterplane Area: 6,196 Square feet or 576 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 139 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 48 lbs/sq ft or 234 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.02
- Longitudinal: 0.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Problem is my nation's DD/TB is maxed at 500 tons. I can't 0.50 composite hull strength the larger ones.
Nice work - I like all of them!
Given you have to use 1.0 hull strength on the bigger version - how about 4 'Little Bros' (my favourite) backed up by 2 'Big Bros' - working in 2 teams
BTW - the bigger calibre (140mm) - is that actual naval gun or sim for the mortar idea - if mortar - what size? ;D
(If mortar is not available :( - I think best to stick with 2 main calibres, the extra complication in FC seems worthwhile if achieve heavy indirect fire, but probably not if mortar not available)
I'm not expert - but I would expect mortar to be about x2 shell wt with much reduced mv
CT - on Baaadddd - armour has slipped to 1" - not sure why
Whatever you choose - my sympathies to the poor victims ....
The range and speed of these ships seems excessive: RRC doesn't have a need to project amphibious power that far (...that I'm aware of).
@ Rock
QuoteDestroyer and TB architecture - Top speed no less than 20kts, composite hull strength > 0.49
Note that DDs must have aleast 20kts of speed. If I lowered the speed I would have to build the ship to 1.00 composite hull strength. That was acutally my first design and I lost 8kts in exchange for 50 tons. Not a good trade if you ask me.
As for the speed, 8000nm @ 12kts becomes 2100nm @ 20kts. 2100nm (1050nm if one can't refuel) isn't all that long of a distance. At best it allows the ships to come close (a few hundred more nm needed) to reaching NS and Firanji.
QuoteBTW - the bigger calibre (140mm) - is that actual naval gun or sim for the mortar idea - if mortar - what size?
140mm BL L45
Its an actual naval gun.
QuoteI'm not expert - but I would expect mortar to be about x2 shell wt with much reduced mv
Makes sense but i don't know if I can adjust the weight of a shell that much on a predesigned naval gun.
Re - Mortar - seems a neat idea in this case (and some of your neighbours are also considering)
I don't know where you could build/obtain - but I think is a fairly low tech even though heavy item
Re simming - I think it would be case of simming:
Weight - eg 5.5" gun for 6" mortar?
Recoil - due to high angle (40-60 degrees) lateral recoil will be less but downward recoil greater - possibly call for some local strengthening around the barbette/turret - perhaps consult the moderators on this ...
QuoteRecoil - due to high angle (40-60 degrees) lateral recoil will be less but downward recoil greater - possibly call for some local strengthening around the barbette/turret - perhaps consult the moderators on this ...
If I remember correctly, I didn't anything like that on a previous ship (that I've seen) with mortars.
My latest design. To be used in BB vs BB fights.
QuoteZhiSou, ROC Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
23,000 t light; 24,358 t standard; 26,788 t normal; 28,732 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
630.00 ft / 630.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
192.02 m / 192.02 m x 28.04 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 85.00lbs / 38.56kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 14,560 lbs / 6,604 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 230.00 ft / 70.10 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Upper: 1.50" / 38 mm 630.00 ft / 192.02 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 27,321 shp / 20,382 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,373 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,046 - 1,361
Cost:
£4.120 million / $16.479 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,539 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 9,843 tons, 36.7 %
- Belts: 4,235 tons, 15.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 740 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 1,360 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,277 tons, 12.2 %
- Conning Tower: 231 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,198 tons, 4.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,919 tons, 37.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,788 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,626 lbs / 17,521 Kg = 28.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.647
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.09 ft / 4.29 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.4 %
Waterplane Area: 44,281 Square feet or 4,114 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 859 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Armor Deck is a little thick and speed is on the lower end for a DN. Also I would increase the CT armor to match the turret / main belt armor.
Michael
Too long, too shallow and slightly overarmored, plus you have a single drydock to build+maintain her.
Now build to withstand her own shells at a distance of 13kyd
QuoteZhiSou, Republic of China Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
22,000 t light; 23,336 t standard; 25,657 t normal; 27,513 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.04 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 85.00lbs / 38.56kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 14,562 lbs / 6,605 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 207.00 ft / 63.09 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Upper: 1.50" / 38 mm 557.00 ft / 169.77 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 16.00" / 406 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 39,581 shp / 29,527 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,177 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,013 - 1,317
Cost:
£4.193 million / $16.774 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,540 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 9,012 tons, 35.1 %
- Belts: 4,242 tons, 16.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 648 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 1,646 tons, 6.4 %
- Armour Deck: 2,177 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 300 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,736 tons, 6.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,248 tons, 36.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,657 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 465 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,895 lbs / 14,014 Kg = 22.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.649
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 15.02 ft / 4.58 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.1 %
Waterplane Area: 39,221 Square feet or 3,644 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 180 lbs/sq ft or 881 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.38
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
This ship is much better, in that it fits in a type 2 dock. Do you mean to have the guns not superfiring though? IIRC only the french have every built a non-superfiring abxy arrangement BB*.
Still her armor scheme is, well, strange. Her belt is too thick (IMHO). Her upper belt is quite thin for a non-AON ship, though I see what you're going for there with a more or less uniform armor for her secondary battery.
Otherwise, she might be a little wet, but in the South China Sea at least, that's probably ok.
* "French looking" is just my code for ugly. Sorry Maddox.
No, I meant it to be in two turrets, quadruple guns like it says. I'm getting the mount for the guns.
After using Big Gun (because its easy for me to understand) I realized at that at 13kyd battles (unlikely but hey some people have 18kyd rangefinders) I would need over 15" of belt to avoid penetration. So I made the belt 16".
The upper belt is because last time people complained that I gave upper belts too much armor (3') now its too little armor ;) It will be fixed.
yea, around Asia the waves aren't that high. besides I know it might be a little wet so the ammunition isn't stored on deck (well with the exception of the AA guns)
I just like ships without a sloped bow. Like all things, there are certain exceptions.
A much larger version of the same ship. Built with the CSA and French battleships in mind (because there aren't many first-rate BBs in the Pacific)
Supposedly superior to Tennessee, Occitanie, Brasil, Islas Malvinas, Imperator, Erzatz Lyn II..... Basically better than any known battleship (doesn't include battlecruisers)
Immunity Zone - All known Naval Guns - 13kyd ~17.5kyd
Can be completed in 41 months (3.5 years)
Designed for the fun because I don't have the BP.
QuoteZhiSou, Republic of China Battleship laid down 1918
Displacement:
32,000 t light; 33,962 t standard; 38,680 t normal; 42,455 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
640.00 ft / 640.00 ft x 105.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
195.07 m / 195.07 m x 32.00 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 21,142 lbs / 9,590 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Upper: 3.00" / 76 mm 640.00 ft / 195.07 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 68,217 shp / 50,890 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 8,493 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
1,378 - 1,792
Cost:
£6.730 million / $26.919 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,226 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 12,427 tons, 32.1 %
- Belts: 5,434 tons, 14.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 925 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 2,841 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,857 tons, 7.4 %
- Conning Tower: 370 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,680 tons, 6.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,927 tons, 36.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,680 tons, 17.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 740 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,723 lbs / 21,647 Kg = 34.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 8.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 17.53 ft / 5.34 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.2 %
Waterplane Area: 51,473 Square feet or 4,782 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1,007 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
You should start designing ships that will get built ;)
:D Maybe I should. Things get in the way of me building my ships, like wars.
Actually since I have 8.5BP per half-year, I can get gather 32 BP within 2 years. I'll reserve the design until I have more BP to throw around. Not like I'm fighting France and CSA yet.
My designs = my ship designs can outdo your ship designs :D
If you use 4BPs by half year, you could built a 32000t in 4 years...
not irealist
You have 4.5BPs for Cruisers & DDs.
;)
An interesting prospect! Hmm....
I'm just worried it will be old by the time it is completed (as in the other's have better ships already).
Already layed down and in build. (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3563.msg38960#msg38960)
Quote from: Logi on May 10, 2009, 05:06:16 PM
An interesting prospect! Hmm....
I'm just worried it will be old by the time it is completed (as in the other's have better ships already).
Then build several smaller ones, and do not put so many eggs in a single basket.
A most logical conclusion Korpen.
32 Ktons of military steel means up to a 100 really useable TB's. That delivers a wave of 400 20" torpedo's if used well.
Quote from: maddox on May 10, 2009, 05:14:14 PM
Already layed down and in build. (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3563.msg38960#msg38960)
Hm, think you would have been better of waiting so you could get 1912 generation guns rather then the 1907 ones you will be using now.
"Stupid me?"
The two Chinas are really controversial a bit.
The MK has less coast, but stronger industry - they only need a coastal defence force.
The RRC has a very long coastline, and they cannot afford but a coastal defence force.
How they plan to operate in Burma as the infrastructure cannot really support more than two corps, that's another question.
Really controversial.
Actually, in all seriousness, IRL south china has always had stronger industry because the southern part of China was always the richest part. The only reason why the capital of IRL China is in Beijing and not south China is because people spread rumors that people living in Guangzhou were beasts and that the place was terrible. In China's long history only one emperor went to visit Guangzhou, he found the place so nice that he wanted to move the capital to there but the officials of the court opposed his decision. The reason why south China is the better part of China is because almost all trade occurs at south China. Guangdong is currently responsible for 12% of the whole nation's GDP, the highest of all provinces. Guangzhou is the 6th richest city in the whole nation. In fact, all the modern thinkers of China emerged from southern China.
The MK is reclusive. They can afford much more but they only want and need a coastal defense force. The RRC is actively engaged in the world, it requires a overseas fleet. You can see the roles are very reversed here.
QuoteHow they plan to operate in Burma as the infrastructure cannot really support more than two corps, that's another question.
I have plans for that. Besides, any disadvantage I will have is most often reflected with the Burmese as well.
I have a little question.
How much does one have to pay for MTBs, the generic 1/1000t $ cost?
Also what is the speed of these MTBs? The chart only differentiates between Cruise, Medium, and Fast.
I would appreciate it if someone answered my above question.
Anyways... The latest design is a troop/airplane carrier.
QuoteAuxiliary Carrier, RRC Carrier/ Troop Transport laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 17,382 t standard; 18,996 t normal; 20,287 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 90.50 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 27.58 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0.25" / 6 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 0.25" / 6 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
-Two Lightweight Hangers
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 97,000 shp / 72,362 Kw = 29.48 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,905 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
808 - 1,051
Cost:
£2.305 million / $9.219 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 377 tons, 2.0 %
- Belts: 153 tons, 0.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 146 tons, 0.8 %
- Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,975 tons, 20.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,397 tons, 28.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,996 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 7,250 tons, 38.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,513 lbs / 7,944 Kg = 36,734.2 x 1.0 " / 25 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.445
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.04 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Stern: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Average freeboard: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.9 %
Waterplane Area: 31,628 Square feet or 2,938 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 112 lbs/sq ft or 545 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
4356t: 66 Airplanes
2644t: Landing Craft for Troops
100t: Fire Control
50t: Radar
25t: Long-range Wireless
25t: Medical facilties
10t: Climatization
25t: Flag Facilities
10t: Construction Reserve
Basically, with a full squadron of airplanes on the carrier, 1322 troops can be carried for the long term. Without any airplanes on the carrier, 3500 troops can be carried.
The fast range of the MTBs is given at max speed.
They cost either as submarines or destroyers, up to the mods.
Ah! I see it now, I always seem to forget where the speed is located whenever I look at the chart.
Ah so its up to the mods... Can a mod tell me what a 1910 MTB costs?
Your ?carrier? is a little fast for a troop transport/CV and the armor is pointless. 0.25", 0.50"...now if you meant cm instead of inches that's a different story.
MTBs cost 200% that of a normal ship, or in other words, are priced the same as subs are.
I'll clarify the ruleset sometime later today to that effect.
By god its the slow ship!!
QuoteFireship, ROC Sloop laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
750 t light; 822 t standard; 1,071 t normal; 1,270 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
200.00 ft / 200.00 ft x 32.00 ft x 15.00 ft (normal load)
60.96 m / 60.96 m x 9.75 m x 4.57 m
Armament:
2 - 7.68" / 195 mm guns in single mounts, 230.00lbs / 104.33kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 460 lbs / 209 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
- Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 5,092 shp / 3,798 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 448 tons
Complement:
93 - 121
Cost:
£0.167 million / $0.668 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 57 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 163 tons, 15.2 %
- Belts: 133 tons, 12.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 19 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 11 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 202 tons, 18.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 270 tons, 25.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 321 tons, 30.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 58 tons, 5.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
565 lbs / 256 Kg = 2.5 x 7.7 " / 195 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 13.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.82
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.390
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m before break)
- Stern: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 10.36 ft / 3.16 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 44.3 %
Waterplane Area: 3,702 Square feet or 344 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 191 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.99
- Overall: 0.60
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Misc Weight:
25t Fire Control
25t Radar
8t Torpedoes (8)
To Logi:
Even with mount and hoist thats a big pair of guns for deck mounts. Also they would have a massive deck foot print not sure there is the room for them.
Also this an example of a type of design that I don't think should be possible with DD/TB tech.
Slow speed, less than 25 knots and belt armor or deck armor (not that yours has it).
Its a gunboat a nice one mind you just not one I think should be built with the DD/TB tech. Those should be off the CL tree.
Michael
The ship is long enough for 4 of these guns, I believe the ship should be wide enough for the gun. With a few feet left over to walk around on.
I'll retrain from commenting on your opinion of DD/TB tech.
The hull - deep draught and chunky L/W ratio, but low BC - is kind of quaint for a slow ship.
Brought to you by the RRC megalomania since 1913 :D
QuoteYunnan, RoC Battlecruiser laid down 1917
Displacement:
38,000 t light; 40,116 t standard; 45,310 t normal; 49,465 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
825.00 ft / 800.00 ft x 120.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
251.46 m / 243.84 m x 36.58 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 21,475 lbs / 9,741 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 1.50" / 38 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Upper: 1.50" / 38 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 122,353 shp / 91,276 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 7,585nm at 19.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9,350 tons
Complement:
1,552 - 2,018
Cost:
£7.023 million / $28.091 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,267 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 12,065 tons, 26.6 %
- Belts: 4,726 tons, 10.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 888 tons, 2.0 %
- Armament: 2,401 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 3,721 tons, 8.2 %
- Conning Tower: 329 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 4,485 tons, 9.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,442 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7,310 tons, 16.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 740 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
60,866 lbs / 27,609 Kg = 44.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 9.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 8.8 ft / 2.7 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.551
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 33.69 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 20.28 ft / 6.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.6 %
Waterplane Area: 67,038 Square feet or 6,228 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 214 lbs/sq ft or 1,044 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.10
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
I'll get a serious design up tomorrow.
Part of the plan to modernize the navy with modern ships that can do more than sail around the coast.
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 001, RRC Torpedo Boat laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
750 t light; 770 t standard; 851 t normal; 916 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
310.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
94.49 m / 91.44 m x 8.23 m x 3.05 m
Armament:
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 26 lbs / 12 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17,462 shp / 13,026 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 2,100nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 146 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
78 - 102
Cost:
£0.167 million / $0.668 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 449 tons, 52.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 235 tons, 27.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 101 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 62 tons, 7.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
219 lbs / 99 Kg = 17.0 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.368
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.72 ft / 0.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m (0.00 ft / 0.00 m before break)
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.72 ft / 3.57 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 60.0 %
Waterplane Area: 4,921 Square feet or 457 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 52 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.66
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weight:
25t Fire Control
25t Long-Range Wireless
12t Torpedoes (12)
i would say ditch the fire con as its not realy going to help much as with only 2 guns if the ship gets in to a gunfight its probably not looking to kill any way adding another gun or 2 would work better
my opinon valued at £0.02
Quote- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m (0.00 ft / 0.00 m before break)
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.72 ft / 3.57 m
you could certainly decrease the freeboard & increase armament
;)
Actually, it looks like the freeboard does need a bit of fixing forward of the quarterdeck.
Too much freeboard.
Even taking coal firing into account range is extremely short for a 30kts ship.
Well its still more than my oldies which have 2k nm at 8kts.
I was looking to get 1.00 seakeeping and somehow it increased. That quarterdeck freeboard somehow escaped my eyes.
I couldn't increase the range by much though. It now has a range of 228nm at 30 kts.
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 001, RRC Torpedo Boat laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
731 t light; 752 t standard; 852 t normal; 931 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
307.82 ft / 300.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
93.82 m / 91.44 m x 8.23 m x 3.05 m
Armament:
3 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 39 lbs / 18 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17,473 shp / 13,035 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 2,600nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 179 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
78 - 102
Cost:
£0.167 million / $0.670 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 0.6 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 446 tons, 52.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 216 tons, 25.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 121 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 62 tons, 7.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
205 lbs / 93 Kg = 16.0 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.368
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.72 ft / 0.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 10.51 ft / 3.20 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 59.7 %
Waterplane Area: 4,921 Square feet or 457 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 52 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.17
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
EDIT: Had the mounts raised by accident.
A endeavor to reduce the battleship weight. (I saved 0.02 composite weight by arranging the guns nelson-style).
As a result of my cutting back on weight, the armor is fairly thinner than I would want and the speed quite a bit slower. However the firepower is quite high, so I suppose it would make for a pocket battleship. Still at 21k tons, its not as small as I would like it to be :-\
Its still a significant improvement over Huang Hun and Li Ming in terms of firepower and armor. And yes, everything fits, abet very tightly. The forecastle and quarterdeck length is reduced as well as the length of the superstructure. (Less lifeboats or they have to be stacked high in racks - maybe attached to the side of the turrets ;) )
QuoteJu Ren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
20,994 t light; 22,658 t standard; 24,935 t normal; 26,757 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 27.43 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (1x12 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
on side aft
Weight of broadside 20,805 lbs / 9,437 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Upper: 1.00" / 25 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 27,040 shp / 20,172 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,098 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
991 - 1,289
Cost:
£4.973 million / $19.891 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,184 tons, 8.8 %
Armour: 6,802 tons, 27.3 %
- Belts: 2,620 tons, 10.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 500 tons, 2.0 %
- Armament: 1,351 tons, 5.4 %
- Armour Deck: 2,110 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 221 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,186 tons, 4.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,322 tons, 41.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,942 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,163 lbs / 11,414 Kg = 18.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.653
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (5 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 13.08 ft / 3.99 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.5 %
Waterplane Area: 38,024 Square feet or 3,533 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,026 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
You have a warning about belt length to consider. Also, the barbette armor is rather low.
I'm also a little puzzled by your freeboard arrangement.
On the other hand, it's a lot of firepower if it can be made to work.
Sorry I added the tds after the main belt so I forgot about that. The freeboard is a bit of a mess, but I'll fix it up. I'm walking on the edge here with the already thin armor and the 1.00 composite strength rating.
I fixed the freeboard and thickened parts of the turret armor. The result was a bump of 1k ton in light displacement.
QuoteJu Ren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
21,995 t light; 23,693 t standard; 26,620 t normal; 28,961 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 27.43 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (1x12 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
on side aft
Weight of broadside 20,805 lbs / 9,437 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 170.00 ft / 51.82 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Upper: 1.00" / 25 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 28,247 shp / 21,072 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 10,400nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,268 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
1,041 - 1,354
Cost:
£5.047 million / $20.187 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,184 tons, 8.2 %
Armour: 7,852 tons, 29.5 %
- Belts: 2,931 tons, 11.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 872 tons, 3.3 %
- Armament: 1,672 tons, 6.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,148 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 230 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,227 tons, 4.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,133 tons, 38.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,625 tons, 17.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 2.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,021 lbs / 11,803 Kg = 19.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.672
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (5 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 12.09 ft / 3.69 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.7 %
Waterplane Area: 38,696 Square feet or 3,595 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 994 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
The armor's better, but I don't care for the freeboard. While the seakeeping is acceptable, it won't take much of a list to put the edge of your deck in the water.
Is a nine or ten gun design on the same hull out of the question?
Its not, but I simply don't have the turrets, so its either 12 gun or 8 gun. The freeboard could certainly be better, I'm busy right now so I can't do the ss. But I'll try to fix it.
Raised the Freeboard Overall - Price was 383 tons and and 10 rounds on the main battery.
QuoteJu Ren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
22,383 t light; 24,090 t standard; 27,029 t normal; 29,380 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 27.43 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (2x6 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
on side aft
Weight of broadside 20,805 lbs / 9,437 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 170.00 ft / 51.82 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Upper: 1.00" / 25 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 28,328 shp / 21,133 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 10,400nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,291 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
1,053 - 1,370
Cost:
£5.072 million / $20.290 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,184 tons, 8.1 %
Armour: 7,856 tons, 29.1 %
- Belts: 2,929 tons, 10.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 872 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 1,701 tons, 6.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,122 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Tower: 233 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,230 tons, 4.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,513 tons, 38.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,646 tons, 17.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 2.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28,037 lbs / 12,717 Kg = 20.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.90
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.659
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (5 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 14.51 ft / 4.42 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.8 %
Waterplane Area: 38,234 Square feet or 3,552 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 207 lbs/sq ft or 1,009 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.61
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
The design with 8 guns.
QuoteJu Ren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
21,765 t light; 23,118 t standard; 26,611 t normal; 29,406 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 27.43 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all aft
Weight of broadside 14,540 lbs / 6,595 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 40,817 shp / 30,450 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,700nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,288 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
1,041 - 1,354
Cost:
£4.187 million / $16.749 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,539 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 8,090 tons, 30.4 %
- Belts: 3,085 tons, 11.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 971 tons, 3.6 %
- Armament: 1,657 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,147 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 230 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,773 tons, 6.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,763 tons, 36.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,847 tons, 18.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 2.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,937 lbs / 15,847 Kg = 25.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.672
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (5 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 16.59 ft / 5.06 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.3 %
Waterplane Area: 38,688 Square feet or 3,594 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 188 lbs/sq ft or 917 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.66
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Meant to hold oil, which is burned for warships, when the ships can not hold it themselves. I suppose it could also be sued as a collier, carrying coal.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this falls under the merchant ship category?
QuoteOil Tanker I, Republic Tanker laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,241 t standard; 11,559 t normal; 15,813 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 78.00 ft x 18.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 23.77 m x 5.49 m
Armament:
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 107 lbs / 48 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 51,542 shp / 38,450 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 50,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9,573 tons
Complement:
556 - 724
Cost:
£0.891 million / $3.564 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 13 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 44 tons, 0.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 22 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 22 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,920 tons, 16.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,522 tons, 30.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,559 tons, 48.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 4.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,710 lbs / 12,569 Kg = 2,152.7 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.82
Metacentric height 9.1 ft / 2.8 m
Roll period: 10.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.524
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.80 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 16.56 ft / 5.05 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 60.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.2 %
Waterplane Area: 29,219 Square feet or 2,715 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 257 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 91 lbs/sq ft or 444 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.02
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
IDK man thats alot of guns for a tender of any type.
Its twin hoists so its really four gun emplacements of MGs and 75mm guns. That makes four corners? Its not a whole lot of coverage, the only other collier I have has 4 guns and is half its size so...
Its NOT a tender :-\ Its a oil tanker/collier. It does not hold accommodations for other warships or repair/refurbish other warships. It strictly carries fuel for the navy.
Quote from: Logi on September 30, 2009, 07:18:10 PM
Its twin hoists so its really four gun emplacements of MGs and 75mm guns. That makes four corners? Its not a whole lot of coverage, the only other collier I have has 4 guns and is half its size so...
Its NOT a tender :-\ Its a oil tanker/collier. It does not hold accommodations for other warships or repair/refurbish other warships. It strictly carries fuel for the navy.
Oilers (AO) Coalier (No clue) Combat Stores Ship (no clue) These all fall under the broad heading of Tenders (atleast they do now dont know if they always did or not) and Personaly I would think more than one mount on any Tender would proly be over kill. Personaly I wouldnt want my tenders going into combat at all, I usualy just slap one mount on them aft and call it good.
QuoteA tender is an auxiliary which can supply all the amenities of a port, to some degree. It generally carries accommodation space and amenities for crews of small vessels, workshops, warehouses, stores, and fuel. Up to half of the weight of these facilties may be simmed as extra fuel bunkerage; the remainder may only be simmed as miscellaneous weight. Regardless, it all counts as functional miscelleneous weight for the purposes of costing.
This is the description of a Tender in the rules. Tenders can NOT be build to mercantile standards, hence the need for that distinction.
Personally its not as if the four guns will make much more of a difference to the purpose of the ship, but it doesn't hurt, and I'm too lazy to go change it now. Its only a difference of a few tons. I don't want it going into combat at all either, but sometimes things don't work the way you want them to.
--------------
I revised the destroyer I designed a page ago.
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 001, RRC Destroyer laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
750 t light; 788 t standard; 882 t normal; 958 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
307.82 ft / 300.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
93.82 m / 91.44 m x 8.23 m x 3.05 m
Armament:
5 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 177 lbs / 80 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,638 shp / 11,666 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 170 tons
Trial Speed = 30.12 kts
Complement:
80 - 105
Cost:
£0.182 million / $0.728 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 22 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 11 tons, 1.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 1.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 395 tons, 44.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 261 tons, 29.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 62 tons, 7.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
224 lbs / 102 Kg = 6.3 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.381
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.72 ft / 0.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.89 ft / 3.32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 171.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 60.8 %
Waterplane Area: 4,941 Square feet or 459 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 62 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 136 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.29
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
That's mercantile alright. A floating bomb too. :D
As for the destroyer, do you only have 750 ton tech?
This (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=924.msg45873#msg45873) kind of ship is your main worry.
Using local fuel. The RRC needs to import oil.
Using torpedo's way big enough to hurt anything floating (except Masque), Your 21" Monsters won't do more that an 17,7" one on these ships. Destroy it.
And the few guns it carry can play a number on anything unarmored. The bigger guns of the RRC DD could be well to big, and just punch holes trough the light ships.
Can be build 1 per 6 months, in a type 0 dock, yours take 7 months in a type 1 dock.
Every HY 13 of these enter service, and that's because the MK doesn't even care to build more.
@Texan
Should I not carry any fuel on it at all? Its called a tanker for a reason. I don't intend for the ship to be in combat anyways.
@Maddox
How does this look then?
QuoteJur-Zi (Bird), Republic Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
500 t light; 515 t standard; 570 t normal; 614 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
229.66 ft / 220.00 ft x 22.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
70.00 m / 67.06 m x 6.71 m x 2.74 m
Armament:
3 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount
2 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 40 lbs / 18 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,190 shp / 11,332 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 99 tons
Trial Speed = 30.5 kts
Complement:
57 - 75
Cost:
£0.126 million / $0.506 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 297 tons, 52.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 184 tons, 32.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 70 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 2.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
164 lbs / 74 Kg = 12.7 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.458
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 73 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.95 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 12.31 ft / 3.75 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 17.5 %
Waterplane Area: 3,108 Square feet or 289 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 113 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 4.96
- Overall: 0.63
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Misc Weight: 12t
6t Torpedoes in Tube
6t Reserve Torpedoes
Logi, I put the :D there for a reason.
Gotta be honest - RRC has to consider fighting blue water navies with larger destroyers as well as the MK swarms, while lacking the industry to match construction of either threat. If the slips and docks are there, I'd go with the 750 t boats. They're closer in capability to "European" boats, and ton-for-ton superior to MK boats.
If you knock down the misc. weight on the 750 t boat, can you get another knot out of her?
Haha, I thought F/C was 50t so I made the misc that way. The misc weight isn't enough to cover the knot if I still want the F/C. The prices for that knot are steep.
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 001, RRC Destroyer laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
750 t light; 787 t standard; 858 t normal; 915 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
308.18 ft / 300.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
93.93 m / 91.44 m x 8.23 m x 3.05 m
Armament:
5 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 177 lbs / 80 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.70" / 18 mm - 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17,586 shp / 13,119 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 127 tons
Trial Speed = 31.18 kts
Complement:
79 - 103
Cost:
£0.185 million / $0.739 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 22 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 8 tons, 0.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 8 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 405 tons, 47.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 278 tons, 32.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 108 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 37 tons, 4.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
221 lbs / 100 Kg = 6.2 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 12.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.371
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.72 ft / 0.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.39 ft / 3.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.1 %
Waterplane Area: 4,924 Square feet or 457 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 140 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.58
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Fear the wrath of Mod-inflicted wounds on your ship there Logi. The BC is only 0.378 and the limit is 0.380.
Ah forgot about that...
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 001, RRC Destroyer laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
750 t light; 788 t standard; 882 t normal; 958 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
307.82 ft / 300.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
93.82 m / 91.44 m x 8.23 m x 3.05 m
Armament:
5 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 177 lbs / 80 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,012 shp / 13,437 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 170 tons
Trial Speed = 31.19 kts
Complement:
80 - 105
Cost:
£0.188 million / $0.753 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 22 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 6 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 419 tons, 47.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 266 tons, 30.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 37 tons, 4.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
218 lbs / 99 Kg = 6.2 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.95
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.381
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.72 ft / 0.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.89 ft / 3.32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 60.8 %
Waterplane Area: 4,941 Square feet or 459 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Powerfull armament & just a correct speed
Good DD for 750t
;)
What do you think of this design; a very long TBD Leader.
Has two 75mm guns arranged with one super-firing in the front. Then aft of the bridge, there is a series of torpedo tubes and smoke stacks. The typical spacing is ~5 ft of space between smoke stack and tube. This comes out as a total of 6 triple torpedo tubes. The last of the six tubes is aft of the aft. bridge. The length of each tube is 25 ft (as I designed them on drawing) which is already overestimating still the blueprints of similar sized torpedoes I've looked at come out to ~22 ft. All the torpedoes are placed centerline.
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 002, RRC TorpedoBoat Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,026 t standard; 1,138 t normal; 1,228 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
385.36 ft / 375.00 ft x 34.10 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
117.46 m / 114.30 m x 10.39 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 28 lbs / 13 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
18 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21,873 shp / 16,317 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 201 tons
Trial Speed = 32 kts
Complement:
97 - 127
Cost:
£0.243 million / $0.972 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 597 tons, 52.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 354 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 43 tons, 3.8 %
- 18 21" (1t) Torpedoes
- 25t Long-Range Wireless
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
385 lbs / 175 Kg = 29.9 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 11.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.389
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.72 ft / 0.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 13.22 ft / 4.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 5.8 %
Waterplane Area: 7,828 Square feet or 727 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 132 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.02
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Quote1908 Cutting Edge (+3): triple TTs - max 12, displacement 1000t
@($^$
I just wasted my time :-\
Will get a 12 torpedo tube design up pronto, probably be reduced to 500~750 tons.
I don't like it. It has too many torpedoes, and minisule amounts of guns. The type 14 Ukrainian design has the same weight, 3 more guns, and only 10 torpedo tubes.
Its called a
torpedoboat for a reason Texan...
Quickly modified Design:
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 002, RRC TorpedoBoat Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
750 t light; 770 t standard; 840 t normal; 896 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
330.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 7.80 ft (normal load)
100.58 m / 100.58 m x 9.14 m x 2.38 m
Armament:
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 28 lbs / 13 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: - - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,652 shp / 12,423 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 126 tons
Trial Speed = 31.5 kts
Complement:
77 - 101
Cost:
£0.178 million / $0.710 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 426 tons, 50.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 269 tons, 32.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 90 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 49 tons, 5.8 %
-24t Torpedoes (1t)
-25t Long-Range Wireless
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
301 lbs / 137 Kg = 23.4 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.381
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.33 ft / 3.76 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 173.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 29.0 %
Waterplane Area: 6,038 Square feet or 561 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 64 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 122 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
I thought it was a TBD. Those normally have more guns and less torpedoes. If its a basic TB, yes, I like it. How did you get 18 torpedoes on a boat without the deck going negitive.
I acutally measured the length of typical 21" TTs and the distance they are placed from smokestacks. Basically I drew it out (on paper!) first before designing it. The deck space goes into negative when you add one more set of TTs because you need ~15 more ft to do that.
And that was my bad. I forgot to deleted the destroyer portion. I was modifying the Standard Design 001 because I kept getting weird numbers before.
its not a bad boat, but it realy better have budies with it that have guns or once it launches its torps its going to get chewed up by the other sides DD/CL with no way of responding
Ok. Um, proposal. Build a equivelent number of these and ships armed to the bone with 5'' guns. I can sell you plans if you need them.
Guns are much heavier than torpedoes in terms of weight. Heck it is very hard to squeeze enough guns onto a DD to be "armed to the bone". Its even harder with 5"s.
So size of the DD is upped to 1000 tons. One triple tube is added so that the DL isn't entirely "bare".
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 003, RRC Destroyer Leader laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,053 t standard; 1,138 t normal; 1,206 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 34.10 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
114.30 m / 114.30 m x 10.39 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 266 lbs / 120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
3 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,135 shp / 14,275 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 154 tons
Trial Speed = 31 kts
Complement:
97 - 127
Cost:
£0.269 million / $1.078 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 22 tons, 1.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 513 tons, 45.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 404 tons, 35.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 28 tons, 2.5 %
-3t Torpedoes (1t)
-25t Fire Control System
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
376 lbs / 170 Kg = 7.1 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.389
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.72 ft / 3.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 171.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.1 %
Waterplane Area: 7,828 Square feet or 727 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 155 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.89
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
I like it. However, is there a point of having destroyer fire-control at this point?
Not like that 25t is able to go anywher else. Besides, its practically a gunboat. Gunboat with fire-control would do worse than one that had fire-control.
So, not really needed per say, but it helps and the weight can't be used elsewhere.
Unless of course, you want to add more TTs, but then it kind of kills the point of it being a gun-boat.
Not really. I would recommend another triple tube, making it 6 tubes.
Well IMO, I think the Fire-Control will help with the 5 gun setup of the DD, but I'm waiting to see what others say.
Ok, I turned it into this...
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 004, RRC TorpedoBoat Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,053 t standard; 1,138 t normal; 1,206 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 34.10 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
114.30 m / 114.30 m x 10.39 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 266 lbs / 120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,135 shp / 14,275 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 154 tons
Trial Speed = 31 kts
Complement:
97 - 127
Cost:
£0.270 million / $1.078 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 27 tons, 2.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 25 tons, 2.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 514 tons, 45.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 405 tons, 35.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 21 tons, 1.8 %
-9t Torpedoes in Tube (9t)
-9t Reload Torpedoes (9t)
-3t Reserve Torpedoes (3t)
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
377 lbs / 171 Kg = 7.1 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.389
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.72 ft / 3.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.3 %
Waterplane Area: 7,828 Square feet or 727 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 155 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.87
- Overall: 0.52
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
See, now I should have build that instead of my design, but considering Ukraine's destroyers, I though heavy armerment and a few torpedoes were better than copying their 5 3'' design.
that actualy ends up looking alot like Rohans 1K ton fleet Destroyer (although with less range and a lower cruise speed)
This one trade range and cruise speed for higher top speed, more torpedoes, and more and higher caliber guns.
Or I could do this, just more torpedoes at the expense of accommodations space and gun armor.
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 004, RRC TorpedoBoat Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,053 t standard; 1,138 t normal; 1,206 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 34.10 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
114.30 m / 114.30 m x 10.39 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 266 lbs / 120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,130 shp / 14,271 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 154 tons
Trial Speed = 31 kts
Complement:
97 - 127
Cost:
£0.270 million / $1.079 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 22 tons, 1.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 514 tons, 45.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 407 tons, 35.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 2.1 %
-12t Torpedoes in Tube (12)
-12t Reserve Torpedoes (12)
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
374 lbs / 170 Kg = 7.1 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.389
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.72 ft / 3.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 171.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.4 %
Waterplane Area: 7,828 Square feet or 727 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 156 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.89
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
I wouldn't mess w/ mount and hoist for 5" guns, at least not singles. Go w/ straight deck mount and drop the "other" armor..no DD had closed mounts yet AFAIK. Should get you some weight for more range/speed/etc..
Much more. Mounts hurt on SS as bad as T&B. Stick with deck mounts and add more speed.
Version A: +FCS and 1 knot
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 004, RRC TorpedoBoat Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,053 t standard; 1,138 t normal; 1,206 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 34.10 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
114.30 m / 114.30 m x 10.39 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 266 lbs / 120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21,873 shp / 16,317 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 154 tons
Trial Speed = 31 kts
Complement:
97 - 127
Cost:
£0.276 million / $1.103 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 16 tons, 1.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 1.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 536 tons, 47.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 367 tons, 32.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 49 tons, 4.3 %
-12t Torpedoes in Tube (12)
-12t Reserve Torpedoes (12)
-25t Fire-Control System
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
360 lbs / 163 Kg = 6.8 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.389
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.72 ft / 3.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.4 %
Waterplane Area: 7,828 Square feet or 727 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 58 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 140 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.95
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Version B: +FCS and +1900nm @ 12kts
QuoteBiao Zhun She Ji 004, RRC TorpedoBoat Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,054 t standard; 1,194 t normal; 1,306 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 34.10 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
114.30 m / 114.30 m x 10.39 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 266 lbs / 120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,962 shp / 14,891 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 4,900nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 252 tons
Trial Speed = 31 kts
Complement:
101 - 132
Cost:
£0.277 million / $1.108 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 16 tons, 1.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 540 tons, 45.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 363 tons, 30.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 194 tons, 16.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 49 tons, 4.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
411 lbs / 186 Kg = 7.8 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.41
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 10.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.409
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.72 ft / 3.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63.4 %
Waterplane Area: 7,912 Square feet or 735 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 137 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.89
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Version B, but personaly id ditch the FC, it realy isnt worth much on DDS at this point.
Quote from: Tanthalas on October 15, 2009, 08:49:07 PM
Version B, but personaly id ditch the FC, it realy isnt worth much on DDS at this point.
W/ 5 guns it's worth it, IMHO.
This time its a monitor:
QuoteBinFa, Republic Light Cruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,068 t standard; 1,189 t normal; 1,286 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
230.00 ft / 230.00 ft x 38.00 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
70.10 m / 70.10 m x 11.58 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
2 - 7.68" / 195 mm guns (1x2 guns), 226.24lbs / 102.62kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 506 lbs / 229 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 150.00 ft / 45.72 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1,400 shp / 1,045 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 218 tons
Complement:
100 - 131
Cost:
£0.191 million / $0.763 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 63 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 362 tons, 30.4 %
- Belts: 145 tons, 12.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 35 tons, 2.9 %
- Armour Deck: 177 tons, 14.9 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 52 tons, 4.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 486 tons, 40.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 189 tons, 15.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 37 tons, 3.1 %
-25t FCS
-6t Torpedoes in Tube (6)
-6t Reserve Torpedoes
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,634 lbs / 741 Kg = 7.2 x 7.7 " / 195 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.45
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 10.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.595
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Mid (50 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Stern: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 6.16 ft / 1.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 72.7 %
Waterplane Area: 6,364 Square feet or 591 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 62 lbs/sq ft or 303 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
And a 500t DD:
Arrangement is basically 2 in the front, one superfiring:
2 in the center separated by the funnels:
1 on the quarterdeck.
QuoteA-Class, RRC Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
500 t light; 521 t standard; 601 t normal; 665 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
269.50 ft / 263.00 ft x 23.90 ft x 7.99 ft (normal load)
82.14 m / 80.16 m x 7.28 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 66 lbs / 30 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,580 shp / 11,623 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 4,324nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 144 tons
Complement:
59 - 78
Cost:
£0.123 million / $0.490 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 8 tons, 1.4 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 307 tons, 51.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 172 tons, 28.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 101 tons, 16.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 12 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
155 lbs / 70 Kg = 12.0 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.88
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.419
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.22 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 79
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.45 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.50 ft / 0.46 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (51 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 10.31 ft / 3.14 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 41.8 %
Waterplane Area: 3,915 Square feet or 364 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 110 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Trial Speed: 32.5 knots
Misc Weights:
12 tons: 12 - 21" Torpedoes
Range at max speed: 339 nm, 11.3 hours
Range at 28.5 knots: 401 nm, 14.1 hours
Range at 25 knots: 607 nm, 24.3 hours
Range at 20 knots: 1174 nm
Range at 15 knots: 2529 nm
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.01
A design on paper what an RRC 2000t DD with 1921 engines would be like.
QuoteModernized, Republic Destroyer laid down 1921
Displacement:
2,000 t light; 2,093 t standard; 2,308 t normal; 2,480 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.00 ft / 386.00 ft x 42.90 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
119.79 m / 117.65 m x 13.08 m x 3.66 m
Armament:
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 422 lbs / 191 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 45,437 shp / 33,896 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 386 tons
Complement:
166 - 216
Cost:
£0.726 million / $2.905 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 53 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 27 tons, 1.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 19 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 8 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,222 tons, 52.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 622 tons, 27.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 308 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 77 tons, 3.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
503 lbs / 228 Kg = 9.5 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.73
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.407
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.03 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 14.05 ft / 4.28 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 192.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.2 %
Waterplane Area: 10,233 Square feet or 951 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 63 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 191 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.90
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Trial Speed: 33.5 knots
Misc Weights: 77t
25 tons: DD FCS
25 tons: Long-Range Wireless
24 tons: 2t Torpedoes + Reloads
2 tons: 6 Depth Charges
1 tons: 1 Depth Charge Thrower
Range at max speed: 395 nm, 12 hours
Range at 28.5 knots: 628 nm, 22 hours
Range at 25 knots: 932 nm, 37.3 hours
Range at 20 knots: 1743 nm, 87.2 hours
Range at 15 knots: 3601 nm, 240.1 hours
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.02
A "pocket" cruiser.
QuoteHao Class, RRC Pocket Cruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
5,000 t light; 5,239 t standard; 5,677 t normal; 6,028 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
500.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 52.65 ft x 17.00 ft (normal load)
152.40 m / 152.40 m x 16.05 m x 5.18 m
Armament:
8 - 7.68" / 195 mm guns in single mounts, 226.24lbs / 102.62kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,861 lbs / 844 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm - -
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 31,673 shp / 23,628 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 789 tons
Complement:
326 - 425
Cost:
£1.071 million / $4.285 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 233 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 1,114 tons, 19.6 %
- Belts: 577 tons, 10.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 194 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 309 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 1,180 tons, 20.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,310 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 677 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 163 tons, 2.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,568 lbs / 2,526 Kg = 24.6 x 7.7 " / 195 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.444
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.49 ft / 3.81 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.4 %
Waterplane Area: 16,711 Square feet or 1,552 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 94 lbs/sq ft or 457 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Stability seems low. Also, did you mean for the main battery to be in singles?
Sorry, may bad. This is how it was meant to be:
QuoteHao Class, RRC Pocket Cruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
5,000 t light; 5,230 t standard; 5,668 t normal; 6,019 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
500.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 55.55 ft x 18.00 ft (normal load)
152.40 m / 152.40 m x 16.93 m x 5.49 m
Armament:
8 - 7.48" / 190 mm guns (4x2 guns), 209.28lbs / 94.93kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,726 lbs / 783 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm - 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 26,957 shp / 20,110 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 789 tons
Complement:
326 - 424
Cost:
£0.994 million / $3.974 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 216 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 1,070 tons, 18.9 %
- Belts: 461 tons, 8.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 259 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 316 tons, 5.6 %
- Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 1,004 tons, 17.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,540 tons, 44.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 668 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 169 tons, 3.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,938 lbs / 3,147 Kg = 33.2 x 7.5 " / 190 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.397
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 13.57 ft / 4.13 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.0 %
Waterplane Area: 17,067 Square feet or 1,586 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 100 lbs/sq ft or 488 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
What no feedback? :-X
Decent size, economical price, good firepower, slow, above average armor.
Tried to fit as many torps as possible on the ship without encounter a deckspace problem. Is it useful?
QuoteFuzhou Class, RRC Large Torpedo Curiser laid down 1950
Displacement:
3,500 t light; 3,647 t standard; 3,874 t normal; 4,055 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.00 ft / 393.00 ft x 49.10 ft x 17.00 ft (normal load)
119.79 m / 119.79 m x 14.97 m x 5.18 m
Armament:
5 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1950 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority forward, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1950 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 611 lbs / 277 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
18 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes, 15 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 393.00 ft / 119.79 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 56,121 shp / 41,866 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 408 tons
Complement:
245 - 319
Cost:
£2.929 million / $11.714 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 76 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 379 tons, 9.8 %
- Belts: 349 tons, 9.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 11 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,343 tons, 34.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,633 tons, 42.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 374 tons, 9.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 69 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,533 lbs / 695 Kg = 14.2 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 12.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.413
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.82 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 19.15 ft / 5.84 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 193.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 61.1 %
Waterplane Area: 11,976 Square feet or 1,113 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 75 lbs/sq ft or 365 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 3.54
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Muthafawker...datsa lota torpedos
My interpretation of things.
at 15m beam, the torps are going to be side mounted, not centerline.
Which means 3 tubes along port and starboard. They are 6-8m each, so about 20% of your waterline length. I can't map it out, but guess they would fit.
The submerged torps have another problem. I put them on my Cruiser, but thats because Bavarian designers are a bit behind the times. From what I understand, they passed from use because they couldn't be used at higher speeds. So unless you want to slow to 20-23kts, not much help.
Further, they were a problem with underwater explosions. Both because there was better chance of leaks where the tubes are, and because the torpedo flat made a dandy large floodable space clear across the ship.
In 1950, which is the lay down date, the problems from near-miss bombs opening seams would be well known and submerged tubes likely a no-no.
The guns are fine. But in 1950, the lack of more AAGs is inexcusable.
I see the belt is the length of the waterline, but still fails to cover. Looking at % hull space below water it's 193 %. I intepret that as a large amount of critical machinery extending above the waterline. There is no armor deck on top of the belt, and a 50mm belt won't stop much more than HE round with a fairly flat trajectory- not the threat envelope likely to see in 1950. The belt is worthless.
It's a very sharp, cramped hull, which will have trouble with maintaining decent levels of operational effiancy on longer cruises. Worse, by time she is built, 32 knts isn't all that fast, and she will be vulnerable to guns/missles/planes at range long before her torpedoes are viable.
Love Torpedo Cruisers - they ooze aggression .. ;D
Think you may have overdone number of tubes a tad - 12 on deck and 8 submerged is still plenty, 'submerged' - actually below deck but above waterline are good for astern fire - no speed restriction in using - bow tubes are pretty useless tactically as noted above
do you have enough bunkerage at 400 tons? - esp. given the high top speed ....l
Oppz, didn't notice the date, my bad.
I was about to say. ;D
An auxiliary carrier. Spawned mostly from the idea, "Hey we have a lot of deck space on troopships, why not use it for something?"
QuoteLamHaou, RRC Auxilary Carrier laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
4,000 t light; 4,099 t standard; 4,593 t normal; 4,988 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 65.62 ft x 14.76 ft (normal load)
120.00 m / 120.00 m x 20.00 m x 4.50 m
Armament:
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 71 lbs / 32 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Single Hangar
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 12 shafts, 9,813 shp / 7,321 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 888 tons
Complement:
278 - 362
Cost:
£0.433 million / $1.733 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 9 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 4 tons, 0.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 366 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,731 tons, 37.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 593 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,890 tons, 41.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,466 lbs / 4,747 Kg = 296.3 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 14.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.421
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 220.9 %
Waterplane Area: 16,122 Square feet or 1,498 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 170 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 74 lbs/sq ft or 360 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.50
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc Weight (1890 t):
600t - 24 Airplanes
30t - Medicial Facilties
15t - Climatization
20t - Extra Pumps
25t - Long-Range Wireless
1200t - Troops (600 Long Range - 1200 Short Range)
Err... rather cramped. You're talking 1,800 troop+250 or so to run the ship+ 100 aviators and their support staff. Even the Independence class, of World War II, which was twice as big, had only 1,000 people.
Wait what? How did you get 1800+250+100+support staff?
Its 1200+250+8+support staff. There's only twenty four planes and not every plane is launched from the ship, IRL they are almost never.
Err.. my baid. Ok, 1,300+250+ 100, INCLUDING the support staff. I should have made that clear the first time. Still, the Independence class was twice as big, with 1,000 people, and carriers should not be built to civilian standard. I think they are mutually exclusive.
You are wrong about something:
The Indy carried 30 planes, this carries 24. 6 planes is a lot of space.
Second: That 1,200 is how much troops go in the ship for one day transport.600 for two-day transport. The space isn't ALWAYS used unlike the Indy. That means you don't need that much space to be filled with food and other things.
The real crew use up is 250+8+support staff.
My recollection is that most troopships have considerable superstructure for accommodation of passengers, and a great deal of boats hanging from davits. There would only be room for a flight deck if mounted above the superstructure.
Technical issues aside - while one could argue she'd be "self-escorting", you wouldn't be able to conduct flight and troop loading/unloading operations at the same time.
Oh right, I was thinking 3/4 Deck for flight when I simmed this, I forgot about the superstructure.
I was thinking the boats could hand at the side of the flight deck. The flight deck is supposed to raised 10 feet. with empty space underneath for boats, etc.
80*16m flight deck. Ignoring the steel support structure.
50mm thick pine.
Weight 500 tons, 10' above what SS assumes is the strenght deck.
Simmed her with those 10' extra as hull and a flight deck that is armered up to the 500 tons as calculated.
QuoteLamwhau, Ersatz CVE laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
4.002 t light; 4.099 t standard; 4.593 t normal; 4.988 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393,70 ft / 393,70 ft x 65,62 ft x 14,76 ft (normal load)
120,00 m / 120,00 m x 20,00 m x 4,50 m
Armament:
2 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 71 lbs / 32 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Armour deck: 1,60" / 41 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9.813 shp / 7.321 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 8.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 888 tons
Complement:
278 - 362
Cost:
£0,433 million / $1,734 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 9 tons, 0,2%
Armour: 477 tons, 10,4%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armour Deck: 477 tons, 10,4%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
Machinery: 366 tons, 8,0%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.260 tons, 27,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 591 tons, 12,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 1.890 tons, 41,1%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7.878 lbs / 3.573 Kg = 223,0 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
Metacentric height 3,3 ft / 1,0 m
Roll period: 15,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2,00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,421
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,86 ft / 9,10 m
- Forecastle (0%): 29,86 ft / 9,10 m
- Mid (50%): 29,86 ft / 9,10 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 29,86 ft / 9,10 m
- Stern: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
- Average freeboard: 26,87 ft / 8,19 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 329,8%
Waterplane Area: 16.122 Square feet or 1.498 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 45 lbs/sq ft or 219 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,48
- Longitudinal: 3,43
- Overall: 0,59
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
?? We can sim it to 0.59 overall?
If you would use the ship as I simmed it, you're at the mercy of the moderators. Doubtfull she'll survive the first trip under full load.
Read up the Greater Napoleon story... (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1545.msg16951#msg16951)
Bizarre. I read that. I though it had problems because of the beam. Ohh... wait, nevermind.
QuoteJuren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
24,000 t light; 25,766 t standard; 27,258 t normal; 28,452 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 27.43 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3 mounts), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised gun
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 21,623 lbs / 9,808 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.25" / 32 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40,824 shp / 30,455 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,686 tons
Complement:
1,059 - 1,378
Cost:
£5.946 million / $23.784 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,286 tons, 8.4 %
Armour: 9,140 tons, 33.5 %
- Belts: 3,740 tons, 13.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 940 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 2,136 tons, 7.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,090 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Tower: 234 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,521 tons, 5.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,666 tons, 39.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,258 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 387 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,054 lbs / 13,179 Kg = 21.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.95
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.642
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.04 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.51 ft / 5.34 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.9 %
Waterplane Area: 37,658 Square feet or 3,499 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 205 lbs/sq ft or 999 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 1.94
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (Internal) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 16 feet
External Vertical Belt is 1.25" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 15.5"
Main Guns are to fire in Salvo's not broadsides as it is expected to put the ship is a dangerous list.
178.5 feet : Three guns together (10 ft of space between each gun)
100 feet: Superstructure Length
110 feet: Forecastle
55 feet: Quarterdeck
Total Neccesary Space: 443.5 feet
Remaining space for Miscellanous: 106.5 feet
Misc Weights (387t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
24t 21" Torpedoes
30t Extra Pumps
15t Flag Facilities
5t Climatization
13t Reserve Weight
Ahoj!
Interesting battleship.
Why the "pocket"?
Borys
QuoteExternal Vertical Belt is 1.25" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 15.5"
Good idea, but no fights were fought to gather this kind of "needed" information.
Also, upper belt is located above waterline. It changes the Springsharp staility and steadiness equations a lot.
A more logical approach would have been a thicker belt.
I think you boogered up you turret layout. It says 12 guns (3 mounts) 1 raised gun. I think you meant for 1 raised mount.
I was about to say! ;D All forward? That's odd. Going for the Nelson?
Quote from: maddox on November 08, 2009, 11:40:15 AM
QuoteExternal Vertical Belt is 1.25" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 15.5"
Good idea, but no fights were fought to gather this kind of "needed" information.
Also, upper belt is located above waterline. It changes the Springsharp staility and steadiness equations a lot.
A more logical approach would have been a thicker belt.
I'll also point out it's unusual foresight considering you haven't started digesting 1905 AP shells, much less 1908 capped shells. Even then you need to understand the forces to precisely calculate how big a cap can be removed, and the space between the two sets of armor necessary to allow the cap to separate from the shell sufficiently to make a difference. I'm guessing it's some hidden future armor tech.
No, no I was noting that NavWeap says 1.25" decapping plate and decap projectiles up to 15". IC, the RRC probably doesn't know but we know decapping plates exist so we try to put a decapping plate ahead of the belt. Regardless we would try to put more than an inch for the purpose because we don't know how much we need. I would have probably given it 1.5" without knowing anything, which then decaps projectiles up to 18.6".
But you have a point about the distances. Well as I would have finished digested the capped shell tech when this ship is laid down, then I guess we would know somewhat.
I'm probably a bit wrong on the numbers but I'm just noting the armour scheme of the ship.
No, I've already digested the 1905 AP shells, but I've suspend the Capped shells for quite some time (2~3 years already?)
Pocket is because of the fact that its not armoured heavily enough to be considered a true battleship, but not yet fast enough to be considered a battlecruiser. As the tonnage is quite small, I call it a pocket battleship.
And yes Texan, it does save weight (about 1~2 k tons)
QuoteJuren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
24,500 t light; 26,280 t standard; 27,793 t normal; 29,003 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 27.43 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
Main guns limited to end-on fire
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 21,674 lbs / 9,831 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.25" / 32 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - 0.50" / 13 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 41,506 shp / 30,964 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,723 tons
Complement:
1,076 - 1,399
Cost:
£5.999 million / $23.996 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,292 tons, 8.2 %
Armour: 9,244 tons, 33.3 %
- Belts: 3,743 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 940 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 2,209 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,114 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Tower: 237 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,546 tons, 5.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,044 tons, 39.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,293 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 373 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,366 lbs / 13,320 Kg = 21.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.655
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.04 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.51 ft / 5.34 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.4 %
Waterplane Area: 38,096 Square feet or 3,539 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,025 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 1.95
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (Internal) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 16 feet
External Vertical Belt is 1.25" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 15.5"
Main Guns are to fire in Salvo's not broadsides as it is expected to put the ship is a dangerous list.
178.5 feet : Three guns together (10 ft of space between each gun)
100 feet: Superstructure Length
110 feet: Forecastle
55 feet: Quarterdeck
Total Neccesary Space: 443.5 feet
Remaining space for Miscellanous: 106.5 feet
Misc Weights (369t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
12t 21" Torpedoes
22t Extra Pumps
10t Flag Facilities
4t Climatization
15t Reserve Weight
Quote from: Logi on November 08, 2009, 12:18:07 PM
No, I've already digested the 1905 AP shells, but I've suspend the Capped shells for quite some time (2~3 years already?)
Hmm, I had missed your HY2/17 report, and was going from the HY1/17 report, which showed you hadn't started digesting the 1905 AP, yet it disappears entirely in your HY2 Report. So I'm confused.
From HY 1 :
Quote
....
$0 for 1905: Armour-Piercing (1 yrs)
$0 for 1912 Sloped external belts; "All or Nothing" Protective Schemes
$0 for 1913: (+5) 15000@26, 10000@30,7000@35, 200kg warhead (+1), 2t, 21"
$0 for 1908: Cutting Edge (+3): Capped shells
Darn, I realized I forgot to change some of the values while I was doing it. It's researched, now worries, I need to edit my reports. Bah teach me to do reports freehand :P
Here's a drawing of the Greater Juren.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Logi_Hack/GreaterJuren.png)
1 pixel = 1 feet
As you can see the belt is located typical RRC style, 6ft under waterline, 10 ft above. The RRC usually keeps 5ft under waterline.
As I'm actually going to lay this down, I ask if there's any more criticism (of the ship itself). I would appreciate working out anything unfavorable before laying it down. :/
Quote from: Logi on November 08, 2009, 06:12:20 PM
As I'm actually going to lay this down, I ask if there's any more criticism (of the ship itself). I would appreciate working out anything unfavorable before laying it down. :/
Well 1st of all there's the crappy NelRod gun layout. Then there are the quads. Then the massive recoil they create. Do you have triples? Hell, even 3 twins forward and 1 twin aft would be better than 3x4. To much top weight. She need to be wider, but you're L/B is already high, or low depending on the way you look at it.
Quote from: Logi on November 08, 2009, 06:12:20 PM
As I'm actually going to lay this down, I ask if there's any more criticism (of the ship itself). I would appreciate working out anything unfavorable before laying it down. :/
wouldnt adding the 1.25" to the MB instead of using it as an upper belt bew better for simulating a decaping belt? just make a note that thats what it is I tend to agree with sam on the Nel/Rod Layout and Quads... (Quads are just evil...)
Actually, yeah - I don't think she's wide enough for quad 14". The 20 degree belt doesn't help.
Well using a NelRod layout saves me ~0.12 on the composite strength that's quite a few k tons.
No I don't have triples, only quads. No other gun for 14" expect the quad.
I could make it wider but that would make it take up a type 3 slip and I'm trying to avoid that.
For the recoil, I'm already having the ship only fire one turret's guns at a time. Would that not work? As I recall that was how they dealt with NelRod.
But this actually isn't a NelRod layout. If I had to compare it, I would say its a Dunkerque layout since the guns are positioned
forward rather than center as in NelRod. Therefore their is no mast effect as in NelRod. (My picture is a bit unfaithful to this, sorry)
The 14"/45 Quad has a 40ft inner diameter, the ship has a beam of >90ft, it fits in. I'll tweak the recoil.
I don't add the 1.25" to the MB because the decapping belt is vertical, the main external is inclined 20 degrees. Adding it to the MB would give it 1 extra ft of height for no particular reason.
----------
I revised the design to be a bit wider.
EDIT: It appears the extra feet for the decapping plate doesn't make a difference so now the decapping plate is also inclined 20 degrees. (Le Gasp)
QuoteJuren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
24,500 t light; 26,281 t standard; 27,785 t normal; 28,989 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 553.00 ft x 92.20 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 168.55 m x 28.10 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 21,674 lbs / 9,831 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.3" / 337 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - 0.50" / 13 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40,887 shp / 30,502 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,708 tons
Complement:
1,075 - 1,398
Cost:
£5.993 million / $23.970 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,292 tons, 8.3 %
Armour: 9,070 tons, 32.6 %
- Belts: 3,765 tons, 13.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 940 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 2,028 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,099 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Tower: 237 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,523 tons, 5.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,241 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,285 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 373 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,894 lbs / 13,560 Kg = 21.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.95
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.52 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8.54 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.51 ft / 5.34 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.0 %
Waterplane Area: 37,825 Square feet or 3,514 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 214 lbs/sq ft or 1,045 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.07
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (Internal) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 16 feet
External Vertical Belt is 1.25" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 15.5"
Main Guns are to fire in Salvo's not broadsides as it is expected to put the ship is a dangerous list.
178.5 feet : Three guns together (10 ft of space between each gun)
100 feet: Superstructure Length
110 feet: Forecastle
55 feet: Quarterdeck
Total Neccesary Space: 443.5 feet
Remaining space for Miscellanous: 106.5 feet
Misc Weights (369t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
12t 21" Torpedoes
22t Extra Pumps
10t Flag Facilities
4t Climatization
15t Reserve Weight
QuoteThe 14"/45 Quad has a 40ft inner diameter, the ship has a beam of >90ft, it fits in.
Nobody managed to put quads of any kind on a hull less than 100' wide, and that's not considering the sloping belt.
When French ship designers see this ship, they will turn to jelly in shame.... the pure hidiousness is surpassing the French ships by a magnitude. The RRC designers will get a lot of letters asking how they could be so creative and genial.
They could have a freeboard of 6 feet. Then it would be even uglier. ;D
Ok, calculating the belt incline and the space it takes up.
There is roughly a space of 3 feet between the decapping plate and the main belt.
The main belt-inclined at 20 degrees takes a distance of roughly 6 feet.
The main belt itself is roughly 13" (~1.08') horizontally.
The decapping plate itself is roughly 1.33" (~0.11') horizontally.
Add these all together: 10.19' for one side of the ship.
Total space taken by the armour scheme: 20.38'
Subtract that from overall beam: 71.82'
Subtract turret diameter from result: 31.82'
I still have 31.82' to spare; almost 16' on either side.
And I somehow mistaken or overly simplifying this?
And it appears weight savings produce ugly ships. The price for beauty on such a ship is just too high.
Using these numbers:
NORMAL DECAPPING GAP = DGN = 3 - (X - 0.105)(0.111)
where "X" is the thickness of the decapping plate in calibers
14"/45 Four-gun Turret KGV: Inner diameter 40 ft. 0 in.
Where's P3D when you need him..this is the kinda stuff he loved.
I vaguely recall that there is a rule of thumb, but I can't think of the specifics.
What I do have is the observation about historical practices, from Dunkerque to North Carolina and KGV. All were wider than 100', and I'm sure there was good reason for it.
Well the recoil effect is still pretty high, although not limiting the ship to end-on-fire. Since both of the ships were able to do a complete broadside, I suppose that may be the reason.
As of now, doing a broadside on my design is a risky maneuver.
Its certainly not about space.
That reason is obvious. Having a great big hole in the structure of the ship weakens it. Having more than 1 makes it even more weak.
And, of course, not only belt counts, but TB , and that needs room to work. Probably the main weakness of the Iowa's.
The Dunkerques had a beam of just short of 102 feet, with slight stubby L/B of 6.91.
If you look at line drawings of them though, you'll notice that the main armament wasn't near the widest beam, of course. The beam abreast A turret was probably more like 90 feet, maybe less.
So figure something like 80 feet beam abreast A turret on this design (again give or take). Now I haven't seen the torpedo protection accounted for, but the rule of thumb most of use is 15 feet (or 5ish meters) on either beam. This seems a realistic value from looking at cross sections and schematics of existing ships. This value is more or less the same no matter where in the ship it is measured. So even before anything else, we have to subtract 30 feet total from the ship for the underwater protection. If we figure 80 feet abreast A turret, that leaves only 50. The RN's 14" quads had barbetted diameters of 40 feet, so that means only 5 feet between barbette bottoms and torpedo bulkhead. Very close.
Internal arrangements in that vicinity would be difficult. Structure to hold up those barbettes would be even more difficult. Could it be done? I dunno. Probably given a number of compromises. Would it be worth it to compromise the ship in that way? Probably not.
On top of all that, I agree that recoil of .95 is too high. The easiest way to fix that is beam.
Which would then expand the ship in a type 3 dock. I only have one type 3 dock so it becomes harder to maintain. And adjusting the beam throws a whole of flying dung disks at me. But I'll try to see what I can do.
But I note:
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
You could just be happy w/ 8 guns since she's a smaller ship. 8 14" guns on 24k is pretty good, and she could have some decent armor too.
Bah, this. Much more amour in exchange for a whooping 6700lb main battery firepower.
QuoteJuren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
24,500 t light; 25,906 t standard; 27,391 t normal; 28,579 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 552.00 ft x 92.20 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 168.25 m x 28.10 m x 9.75 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 15,074 lbs / 6,838 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.5" / 394 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 56,548 shp / 42,185 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,673 tons
Complement:
1,063 - 1,383
Cost:
£5.004 million / $20.014 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,606 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 10,261 tons, 37.5 %
- Belts: 4,394 tons, 16.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 997 tons, 3.6 %
- Armament: 1,871 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,725 tons, 10.0 %
- Conning Tower: 274 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,107 tons, 7.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,125 tons, 37.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,891 tons, 10.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 401 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,978 lbs / 14,959 Kg = 24.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.589
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.99 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.30 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.51 ft / 5.34 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.4 %
Waterplane Area: 36,830 Square feet or 3,422 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 953 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.10
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (Internal) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 16 feet
External Vertical Belt is 1.5" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 18.6" (WOW)
109 feet : Three guns together (10 ft of space between each gun)
100 feet: Superstructure Length
110 feet: Forecastle
55 feet: Quarterdeck
Total Neccesary Space: 374 feet
Remaining space for Miscellanous: 178 feet
Misc Weights (401t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
24t 21" Torpedoes
25t Extra Pumps
12t Flag Facilities
5t Climatization
25t Reserve Weight
As for the requisite width for a quad- feel free to use whatever diameter you wish. However, folks are giving you well intentioned advice based on what they know of warship design.
Preston gives the designed beam of
Normandie with quad 13.4" as 88 feet 2in. They were canceled later due to lessons learned in WWI. Googling them gets Conways, which does indicate that adding a Torpedo bulge would be needed, but I remain unclear on what their internal TDS situation was.
However, as you've documented, more width would be needed in the case of an internal belt.
However, the follow on
Lyon class, also with quad 13.4" ...had a planned beam of 110 feet. That 22 ft. difference could be for an effective stand off difference on the TDS.
So... I think you're likely missing some necessary structure to support your barbettes, particularly if you are situating them 10 feet apart. Thats 3 real big holes and a great deal of weight on the keel with little in the way of supporting structures.
Quote from: Logi on November 08, 2009, 08:01:06 PM
NORMAL DECAPPING GAP = DGN = 3 - (X - 0.105)(0.111)
where "X" is the thickness of the decapping plate in calibers
14"/45 Four-gun Turret KGV: Inner diameter 40 ft. 0 in.
Currently, in your HY 2, 1917 report, you list no money spent to develop the sloped belt, the capped shell, or the 14" Quad. Since the latter takes 2 years, 1920 is the earliest lay down date unless your report is wrong.
However, I still think it odd to include the decapping plate, and know the precise formula thereoff, as it was something not specified until late 1930s Italian designs, although the outer skin of US vessels was STS of sufficient thickness to act as one in some cases.
In this sim, you can ignore your fellow players advice, as it's up to the Mods to ultimately decide when you push the bounds. Take historic IJN warships- they pushed the limits....and several had to be brought back to dock for strengthening. Or take the USS North Carolina, with her fine bow forward she was narrow near the forward magazines...which some feel could have been fatal when she was hit by a torpedo, instead she got lucky. Here the presence and extent of such things are up to the mods.
I actually used a 35 ft diameter for the turret in the picture as the gun length isn't all that long and 40 ft would have given it a very short barrel look.
the sloped belt, the capped shell, or the 14"
Actually for the quad, 1 full year of funding and research was put into it, but paused in recent years. So I can have this laid down in 1919.
I'm currently messing by SS trying to keep the weight the same but make the ship larger for a wider beam. You are quite correct, but I think 3 feet is a good estimate.
Consider that in actuality the space given for such a plate was 2 feet, not 3 feet. (The equation also gives 2.7 feet rather than the full 3) I overestimate the space to reflect the lack of real knowledge concerning this.
I see the built ships with quads usually used 105 feet so I'm going to go with that.
Increasing the weight was inevitable, so I increased the weight by 1,500 tons.
As noted in my previous post, the actual gap needed and used OTL was 2', however here it is 3'. A large gap, does not, to my knowledge, change how effective the plate is.
As the beam is also wider with more free space, there is more space for adjusting the decapping gap (which will remain greater than 3 ' no matter what) so while the designers do not know the exact gap distance. They should know a few feet is more than enough.
Juren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
26,000 t light; 27,812 t standard; 29,375 t normal; 30,625 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
620.00 ft / 612.00 ft x 103.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
188.98 m / 186.54 m x 31.39 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 21,674 lbs / 9,831 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.5" / 368 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 39,936 shp / 29,792 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,814 tons
Complement:
1,121 - 1,458
Cost:
£6.641 million / $26.564 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,292 tons, 7.8 %
Armour: 9,465 tons, 32.2 %
- Belts: 4,063 tons, 13.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 977 tons, 3.3 %
- Armament: 1,975 tons, 6.7 %
- Armour Deck: 2,388 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,488 tons, 5.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,343 tons, 42.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,375 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 411 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,071 lbs / 14,547 Kg = 23.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.526
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19.45 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.12 ft / 4.61 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102.5 %
Waterplane Area: 43,022 Square feet or 3,997 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 218 lbs/sq ft or 1,063 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.64
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (Internal) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 15 feet - the main belt is really 13" thick (13.8" Horizontally)
External Vertical Belt is 1.5" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as part of the main beltupper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 18.6" (but thought to only decap up to 15.5" projectiles by RRC designers)
160 feet : Three guns together (10 ft of space between each gun)
120 feet: Superstructure Length
122.4 feet: Forecastle
61.2 feet: Quarterdeck
Total Neccesary Space: 463.6 feet
Remaining space for Miscellanous: 156.4 feet
Miscellanous space is the space on the other side of the ship. The closer to the space the guns take up, the more center placed the superstructure. In this case, the center of the superstructure it is only 3.6 feet from the center.
Beam: 103' (~93' at turret's location)
There is roughly a space of 3 feet between the decapping plate and the main belt.
The main belt-inclined at 20 degrees takes a distance of roughly 5.5 feet.
The main belt itself is roughly 13.8" (~1.15') horizontally.
The decapping plate itself is roughly 1.6" (~0.13') horizontally.
Add these all together: 9.78' for one side of the ship.
Total space taken by the armour scheme: 19.56'
Subtract that from overall beam (at turret): 73.44'
Subtract turret diameter from result: 33.44'
Result: 16.72' From either side of the turret to the beam.
The TDS is ~30' wide in total.
Subtract that from overall beam (at turret): 63'
Subtract turret diameter from result: 23'
Result: 11.5' From either side of the turret to the beam.
The conning tower has relatively light armour so as to proof it from splinter fire but to make sure an enemy Battleship shell does not detonate inside the conning tower. The light armour also prevents breaking splinters from a enemy shell passing through and reduces the shock to the conning tower by a shell hit on the tower. This means the electronic systems in the tower are less likely to fail and the conning personnel are less likely to pass out from the shock.
Immunity Zone (to own guns): 6 - 12 -19 Degrees
Immunity Range (to own guns): 10,600 - 18,000 - 24,500 yds
6 Degrees - The Shell IS Decapped - Penetrates ~13.54" of the Main Belt
12 Degrees - The Shell is NOT Decapped - Penetrates ~3.94" of the Deck
19 Degrees - The Shell IS Decapped - Penetrates ~3.84" of the Deck
Since there is no decapping plate for the deck, I would assume the immunity zone of the ship to its own guns are 10,600 to 18,000 yds - giving the ship 7,400 yds to maneuver against itself.
Misc Weights (411t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
24t 21" Torpedoes
42t Extra Pumps
15t Flag Facilities
5t Climatization
25t Reserve Weight
Nice study & well ballanced BB.
IMO, this is not a Pocket BB, a pocket BB had just 6 main guns.
Jef ;)
Now build a battlecruiser from scratch, how does it look?
EDIT: Noticed I put the midship turrets in singles by mistake.
QuoteJunFai, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 21,206 t standard; 22,546 t normal; 23,618 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
630.00 ft / 620.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
192.02 m / 188.98 m x 25.91 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,040.00lbs / 471.74kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,040.00lbs / 471.74kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 13,097 lbs / 5,941 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 387.00 ft / 117.96 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm - 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 10.0" / 254 mm - 9.00" / 229 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 63,781 shp / 47,581 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,412 tons
Complement:
919 - 1,195
Cost:
£4.372 million / $17.489 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,373 tons, 6.1 %
Armour: 6,417 tons, 28.5 %
- Belts: 2,854 tons, 12.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,145 tons, 9.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,367 tons, 6.1 %
- Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,376 tons, 10.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,516 tons, 42.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,546 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 318 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,805 lbs / 11,705 Kg = 29.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.555
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.29 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.99 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m before break)
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 17.19 ft / 5.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.9 %
Waterplane Area: 36,937 Square feet or 3,432 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 898 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Belt is Sloped 20 Degrees (External) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 16 feet - the main belt is really 10.6" thick H.
crowded... It looks crowded
PLEASE...PLEASE....BUILD IT!!! I would forever (Ok, about 20mins if/when we fight) be in your debt.
Quote| - Gun armour: |
| Face (max) | Other gunhouse (avg) | Barbette/hoist (max) |
| Main:10.0"/254mm | - | 9.00"/229mm |
| 2nd:10.0"/254mm | - | 9.00"/229mm |
Open mounts for MB Turrets, novel approach. I like it! (cuz you'd be easy to GT)
Crap! I knew there was something missing...
QuoteJunFai, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 21,207 t standard; 22,543 t normal; 23,612 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
630.00 ft / 620.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
192.02 m / 188.98 m x 25.91 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,040.00lbs / 471.74kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,040.00lbs / 471.74kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 13,097 lbs / 5,941 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 369.00 ft / 112.47 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 10.0" / 254 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 63,203 shp / 47,149 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,405 tons
Complement:
919 - 1,195
Cost:
£4.366 million / $17.465 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,373 tons, 6.1 %
Armour: 6,407 tons, 28.4 %
- Belts: 2,745 tons, 12.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,269 tons, 10.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,341 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,355 tons, 10.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,544 tons, 42.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,543 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 321 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,510 lbs / 11,571 Kg = 29.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.84
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.535
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.29 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.99 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m before break)
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 17.19 ft / 5.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.8 %
Waterplane Area: 36,256 Square feet or 3,368 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 906 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Belt is Sloped 20 Degrees (External) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 16 feet - the main belt is really 10.6" thick H.
QuoteOpen mounts for MB Turrets, novel approach.
No doubt China's idea of air conditioning for the main turrets. :D
I restate my point that it looks awfull crowded. the 6 twin 12" mounts is going to eat alot of deck space (see USS Wyoming if you doubt me) then the 3 tripple torp launchers all the deck mounts, Im just not sure it would all fit.
Ok let's examine.
The two AA guns are mounted on the smokestacks (I saw this something, forgot where) so it's not a problem.
The USS Wyoming's turret has a diameter of almost 25 ft. The gun itself is 40 ft long.
Since the gun is not superfiring that means + (40-25) ft to the OA Length of USS Wyoming.
That comes to 577 feet.
---------------------
Superstructure in USS Wyoming is roughly 140' long.
There are 8 105mm guns to be placed at the sides of this. That makes 4 guns per side. Each 105mm/55 gun is ~19'. Say I place the front two 5' apart and the back two 5' (I'm taking as a side). That comes to a total of 86'.
Subtract from superstructure length. 54' Left.
Take it each set of triple torp launchers is 23' long.
Total length of torpedo tubes with 1' of space between each is 71'. I'm lacking 17' on the superstructure!
But wait! The modified USS Wyoming designs is 577'. My design is 620' long. That's an addition of 63'!
Subtract the needed 17' from this and we get 46' left over.
Take it that the higher speed necessitates a larger volume and smokestacks. The former is solved because the USS Wyoming has a 86:14 coal:oil ratio in its bunker. This design uses only oil. Oil takes less space than coal.
For the smokestacks, we have, basically 23' of expansion for each stack (it obviously won't need that much). And there you have it.
It's a bit crowded, but everything fits nicely.
Where do the 105mm deck mounts go?
Wyoming's secondary battery was all casemates below the main deck line...
Next to the superstructure as I said.
My point was apparently too subtle. I wish I had the time at the moment to do a rough sketch, but I agree that there is insufficient deckspace for the primary and secondary armament, assuming the primary armament would have useful arcs.
Assuming those 105's are 45 caliber, we can expect they'd be about 4.75m long. That's roughly 15.5 feet. We should also assume that the crew needs at least a 3m or 9 foot working circle for the crew, which means you'd need somewhere around an extra meter or meter and a half behind the gun. So let's assume the length of the whole installation viewed from abeam would be 6 meters or between 19.5 and 20 feet. So assuming that the secondary battery guns arcs don't overlap (which is a good idea for a number of reasons), you'll need at least 48 meters of length, or 157 feet just for the secondary battery. This is not taking into account any allowances related to the main battery arcs to deal with blast.
And that's just the secondary battery.
The 105 are 55 caliber. That's roughly 19' as stated before.
I gave all the guns 5' working space. However, I have 46' left over after adding everything. I can use this to give all the secondary batteries enough working space.
I was thinking there is an aft and fore bridge. There are two secondary batteries for the aft and fore bridge per side.
Say I gave that 46' to the superstructure. The superstructure is now 196' long. I divd that directly into half and get 98' per part.
Work into the secondary guns and their working space = 56' directly for the guns and working space per two guns.
That means I have 42' per Fore or Aft bridge to play with the Secondaries' position so as to take it out of the main battery's firing arc.
----------------------------------------------
Say it simply the space for the secondary is the space for the superstructure. The superstructure is 196' long. You said I need 157' just for the secondary. I see no problem here.
Logi you dont have 620' to work with... you have 369' to work with. The Length of the Main belt where unless your looking to blow the hell up all your armor is located. Im not personaly sure all 6 12" turrets will fit in that space without including everything else you have/need to put there
You're right :-\ Removed one gun in exchange for better armour overall.
QuoteJunFai, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 21,079 t standard; 22,410 t normal; 23,475 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
630.00 ft / 620.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
192.02 m / 188.98 m x 25.91 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,040.00lbs / 471.74kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 1,040.00lbs / 471.74kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,017 lbs / 4,997 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 407.00 ft / 124.05 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 62,892 shp / 46,918 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,396 tons
Complement:
915 - 1,190
Cost:
£4.000 million / $16.000 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,157 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 7,221 tons, 32.2 %
- Belts: 3,559 tons, 15.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,273 tons, 10.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,338 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,343 tons, 10.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,967 tons, 40.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,410 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,563 lbs / 12,502 Kg = 31.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.532
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.29 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.99 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m before break)
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 17.19 ft / 5.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.9 %
Waterplane Area: 36,150 Square feet or 3,358 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 853 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Belt is Sloped 20 Degrees (External) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 16 feet - the main belt is really 12.7" thick H.
That's a long main belt.
SS2 won't put guns forward of the forcastle percentage line, nor aft of the start of the quarterdeck. Since you have 20% and 15% respectively for those values, it means that your armament must be situated in the remaining 409.5 feet of hull. So a good rule of thumb is you probably want the main belt to be just a bit longer than that 409.5 feet. Or at least, that's how I sometimes do it.
I did it so:
The main guns added together take 200' with 5' spaces.
The super structure with secondary batteries and torpedo tubes is roughly 190'.
17' more belt to compensate for spaces that might be too small.
it actualy looks good to me, although for a new build 26 knots might be a tad on the slow side and as always I question the utility of a 20Deg. slope on the main belt (just feals like overkill to me). However all in all looks like a decent enough ship.
I tried increasing the speed, it killed the armour more than I would like, but its faster...
QuoteJunFai, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 21,079 t standard; 22,439 t normal; 23,527 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
700.00 ft / 690.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
213.36 m / 210.31 m x 24.38 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,040.00lbs / 471.74kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 1,040.00lbs / 471.74kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,017 lbs / 4,997 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 416.00 ft / 126.80 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 93 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 11.0" / 279 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 79,543 shp / 59,339 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,448 tons
Complement:
916 - 1,191
Cost:
£4.174 million / $16.695 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,157 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 6,438 tons, 28.7 %
- Belts: 3,134 tons, 14.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,857 tons, 8.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,395 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,964 tons, 13.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,130 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,439 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24,807 lbs / 11,252 Kg = 28.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.527
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.36 ft / 0.72 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m before break)
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 16.19 ft / 4.93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.6 %
Waterplane Area: 37,703 Square feet or 3,503 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 169 lbs/sq ft or 827 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.07
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
No torpedo bulkhead?
I would, but that would destroy the belt down to 8". And IMO 8" for a 20k ship is not acceptable, especially if its a BB/BC.
Ahoj!
In such a case I suggest putting aside 0,5$ of your budget for incense sticks.
To burn them to the Gods to make them listen to your prayers of the BC not getting torpedoed ...
Franly, I'd cut down the MG calibre to 11", and invest the savings into the TBS and improving stability.
Borys
Does the changing of the two single 12" turrets to a twin turret free up some hull strength?
Also, in the book
Battleships of the Scharnhorst Class by Koop and Schmolke, it says:
QuoteIn the case of the Scharnhorst class battleships, the narrow 30m beam forced the architects to design the longitudinal torpedo bulkhead at an incline instead of vertically. This was the only way in which it was possible to build in the necessary safety zone between the bulkhead and outer plating.
This ship has a beam that is even narrowed. So, regardless of what SS says and does, does this ship have enough beam for the torpedo protection system to work? If it hasn't, the torpedo bulkhead is just useless extra weight for the ship to drag along.
Ahoj!
Walter, I hadn't looked at the beam. Maybe at 80ft it really isn't worth bothering with ...
Borys
... Not sure that the 2 single 12" be useful in a battle.
Are they back to back to fire 160° ?
or twin mount with 120° each side ?
IMO... protect ends & belt protection to 100%.
Seaboat quality & stability could be certainly better with 80.000SHP-28kts.
Jef ;)
Bah, the singles were a mistype, its supposed to be a twin turret. I'll fix it when I can.
Install 12" guns in single mounts could be interresting for coastal ships...
Jef ;)
QuoteXiamen, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
19,000 t light; 19,936 t standard; 21,201 t normal; 22,213 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 89.30 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 27.22 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 865.00lbs / 392.36kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 7,537 lbs / 3,419 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 363.00 ft / 110.64 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 363.00 ft / 110.64 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 85,573 shp / 63,838 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,276 tons
Complement:
878 - 1,142
Cost:
£3.470 million / $13.881 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 743 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 6,793 tons, 32.0 %
- Belts: 3,756 tons, 17.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,748 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,223 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Tower: 66 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,188 tons, 15.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,925 tons, 37.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,201 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,013 lbs / 12,253 Kg = 40.6 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.497
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.24 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 21.44 ft / 6.53 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136.6 %
Waterplane Area: 33,059 Square feet or 3,071 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 161 lbs/sq ft or 787 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.19
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Revisiting the Cruiser Concept.
QuoteHao Class, RRC Protected Cruiser laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
7,500 t light; 7,851 t standard; 8,415 t normal; 8,866 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 55.70 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 16.98 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
8 - 7.68" / 195 mm guns (4x2 guns), 226.24lbs / 102.62kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 2,118 lbs / 961 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 59,272 shp / 44,217 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,015 tons
Complement:
439 - 571
Cost:
£1.733 million / $6.930 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 265 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 1,523 tons, 18.1 %
- Belts: 1,004 tons, 11.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 119 tons, 1.4 %
- Armour Deck: 374 tons, 4.4 %
- Conning Tower: 27 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,208 tons, 26.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,270 tons, 38.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 915 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 233 tons, 2.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,148 lbs / 3,242 Kg = 31.6 x 7.7 " / 195 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 16.44 ft / 5.01 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.6 %
Waterplane Area: 20,208 Square feet or 1,877 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 101 lbs/sq ft or 495 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc Weight (233t):
100t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long-Range Wireless
54t Torpedoes
29t Construction Reserve
Ahoj!
At first glance I liked it. At second - I deemed concept worthy, but the execution I do not like:
- the MG should be in turrets;
- AD too thin, I'd got for at least 1,5";
- nine TT - is that three mounts? - I believe that a cross-decking mount on such a large ship is problematic;
- I would tinker with stability vs. fireplatform - I'd be happy with 1,10 and 65%;
Borys
1) That would require 250t FCS... And I have a H&M for the 190mm for some reason, so i figure I should use it.
2) I could, that cuts belt height by 3'
3) Yes three mounts. I used the blueprint of Furutaka to place everything. What does "Cross-Decking Mount" mean? :-X
4) Well I aim for 1.08 stability and 70%; so difference of thought there.
I can't add 250t FCS and Turrets without enlarging the ship (and that is not acceptable)
I increased the deck.
QuoteHao Class, RRC Pocket Cruiser laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
7,500 t light; 7,851 t standard; 8,415 t normal; 8,866 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 55.70 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 16.98 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
8 - 7.68" / 195 mm guns (4x2 guns), 226.24lbs / 102.62kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 2,118 lbs / 961 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 59,274 shp / 44,219 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,015 tons
Complement:
439 - 571
Cost:
£1.733 million / $6.930 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 265 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 1,510 tons, 17.9 %
- Belts: 803 tons, 9.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 119 tons, 1.4 %
- Armour Deck: 561 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 27 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,208 tons, 26.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,270 tons, 38.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 915 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 247 tons, 2.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,119 lbs / 3,229 Kg = 31.5 x 7.7 " / 195 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 16.44 ft / 5.01 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.6 %
Waterplane Area: 20,208 Square feet or 1,877 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 101 lbs/sq ft or 495 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Oh second thought I tried it again:
With 250t FCS and Turret
QuoteHao Class, RRC Pocket Cruiser laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,337 t standard; 8,919 t normal; 9,385 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 60.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 18.29 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
8 - 7.68" / 195 mm guns (4x2 guns), 226.24lbs / 102.62kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 2,118 lbs / 961 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130
9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 61,799 shp / 46,102 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,048 tons
Complement:
458 - 596
Cost:
£1.799 million / $7.198 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 265 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 1,605 tons, 18.0 %
- Belts: 807 tons, 9.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 171 tons, 1.9 %
- Armour Deck: 600 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,303 tons, 25.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,473 tons, 38.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 919 tons, 10.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 354 tons, 4.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,844 lbs / 3,558 Kg = 34.7 x 7.7 " / 195 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.467
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.28 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 16.44 ft / 5.01 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.5 %
Waterplane Area: 21,625 Square feet or 2,009 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 104 lbs/sq ft or 510 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Ahoj!
"Cross-decking" was a poor choice of term to use. This is a mount on one side, but capable of firing over the deck at targets on the other beam. I should had used the term "centerline" TT mount.
The WWII Furutaka sports two beam quads. The line drawing of the 6x1x8" version I have does not show torpedo tyube. I'd love to see how the 3x3 TTs were arranged.
I still think that twined guns above 6" should be in turrets ...
Borys
The crane aft was removed and the space used for the centerline launchers. Also, part of the superstructure was removed (as there is only one gun centerline on this ship).
QuoteThe line drawing of the 6x1x8" version I have does not show torpedo tyube.
Looking around, I found a pic of the early version of the Furutaka which is probably the version you have or something similar.
http://www.military.cz/ww2_ships/Japan/CA/furutaka/furutaka_schem1926.jpg
Not easy to see, but the torpedo tubes are visible in the hull.
Marked them on the picture...
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/WvRooijen/FurutakaTT.png)
Ahoj!
Thank you Walter. It was this drawing, but not in such detail.
So, where are the triple TT mounts?
Instead of mount/ turret no. 3, catapult and no. 4?
Borys
Yes.
Paper Exercise; A Battleship where tonnage isn't a concern. This is what was achieved.
For the note:
The Ship employs a 16" Internal Main Belt inclined @ 20 degrees. There is an external 1.5" decapping plate inclined @ 20 degrees.
The TDS is distributed into three hulls (triple hull), with the following protection: 0.5", 0.5", 1" in order from outermost to inner.
The Deck is split into three parts: A 2" Weather Deck, a 4" Armored Deck, and then a 1" Splinter Deck.
As usual, the Belt is situated with 5 ft underwater. The Weather deck lies at the top of the ship and the Armored 5 ft below that, connecting the AD to the MB.
QuoteGreater Juren, Republic of China Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
44,000 t light; 46,329 t standard; 48,501 t normal; 50,238 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 100.00 ft (Bulges 116.70 ft) x 35.20 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 213.36 m x 30.48 m (Bulges 35.57 m) x 10.73 m
Armament:
16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (10x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 24,112 lbs / 10,937 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 17.5" / 445 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 21.75 ft / 6.63 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 245.00 ft / 74.68 m 21.75 ft / 6.63 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.50" / 64 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 35.20 ft / 10.73 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 12.0" / 305 mm 16.0" / 406 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 7.00" / 178 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 74,421 shp / 55,518 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,909 tons
Complement:
1,633 - 2,124
Cost:
£9.731 million / $38.923 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,014 tons, 6.2 %
Armour: 20,969 tons, 43.2 %
- Belts: 8,289 tons, 17.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,481 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 4,485 tons, 9.2 %
- Armour Deck: 6,570 tons, 13.5 %
- Conning Tower: 143 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,773 tons, 5.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,609 tons, 34.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,501 tons, 9.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 635 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57,341 lbs / 26,009 Kg = 41.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 10.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 20.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.590
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32.62 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 18.44 ft / 5.62 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.9 %
Waterplane Area: 50,737 Square feet or 4,714 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 223 lbs/sq ft or 1,090 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.23
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
20 degrees? Thats alot. Not a good idea.
20 degrees isn't alot, the Iowa battleships features a 19 degrees internal MB incline. It is the maximum, but its not alot.
Powerfull BB with massive armour
21.000t on 44.000---43.2%
but survivability is not very high... you could certainly have over 30.000kg.
With that belt, you could stop 20" APC... (?)
I like specialy the boardside
Jef
16x14" is an interesting armament. It would probably soft kill just about anything it couldn't penetrate.
Just for arguments sake, how would a ship armed with between 8 and 12 16" guns compare?
I note no difference between three quad 16" and four triple 16" so I went with the latter.
For 4000 tons you get a much heavier broadside.
QuoteGreater Juren, Republic of China Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
48,000 t light; 51,006 t standard; 53,318 t normal; 55,167 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
725.00 ft / 710.00 ft x 100.00 ft (Bulges 118.40 ft) x 36.00 ft (normal load)
220.98 m / 216.41 m x 30.48 m (Bulges 36.09 m) x 10.97 m
Armament:
12 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2,700.00lbs / 1,224.70kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (10x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 34,560 lbs / 15,676 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 17.5" / 445 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 21.75 ft / 6.63 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 245.00 ft / 74.68 m 21.75 ft / 6.63 m
10.00 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.50" / 64 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 36.00 ft / 10.97 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 12.0" / 305 mm 16.0" / 406 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 7.00" / 178 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,253 shp / 59,123 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,161 tons
Complement:
1,753 - 2,280
Cost:
£10.692 million / $42.770 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,342 tons, 6.3 %
Armour: 21,732 tons, 40.8 %
- Belts: 8,311 tons, 15.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,515 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 4,924 tons, 9.2 %
- Armour Deck: 6,830 tons, 12.8 %
- Conning Tower: 153 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,953 tons, 5.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,263 tons, 36.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,318 tons, 10.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 710 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
61,400 lbs / 27,850 Kg = 30.0 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 11.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 20.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.617
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21.80 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 18.44 ft / 5.62 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.9 %
Waterplane Area: 52,740 Square feet or 4,900 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 248 lbs/sq ft or 1,209 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Quote from: Logi on December 10, 2009, 04:27:10 PM
As usual, the Belt is situated with 5 ft underwater. The Weather deck lies at the top of the ship and the Armored 5 ft below that, connecting the AD to the MB.
I believe that SS splits the MB equally above and below the WL. So, if you want a miserly 5FT below the WL, sim a 10' MB and add the rest as UB.
I also believe that a deck with 5' height is very uncomfortable for the crew. I try to go for at least 7FT m'self, and 8' if I can.
Borys
QuoteI also believe that a deck with 5' height is very uncomfortable for the crew.
That might be true for the Habsburgers, but the Chinese are not that tall... :)
On the other side of things, trying out a transport design. This would cost $5 and 5 BP to complete. Might I as how many troops you all believe this ship can hold? They don't all have to be above waterline.
QuoteWenbing, RRC Transport laid down 1950
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 20,450 t standard; 21,334 t normal; 22,041 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.90 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.32 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1950 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1950 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
Weight of broadside 142 lbs / 64 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
geared drive, 2 shafts, 49,232 shp / 36,727 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,591 tons
Complement:
882 - 1,147
Cost:
£6.878 million / $27.513 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 18 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 18 tons, 0.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 18 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,178 tons, 5.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,387 tons, 25.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,334 tons, 6.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 13,399 tons, 62.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24,732 lbs / 11,218 Kg = 700.2 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 18.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.601
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 37
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 163.7 %
Waterplane Area: 37,890 Square feet or 3,520 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 517 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I would suggest that you have it operate as a liner in peacetime, as a huge, 20,000 tons ships sitting in reserve, waiting for use is not very constructive for the economy.
If she's a liner, I'd sim her with a cruising speed of something like 21 knots. She might be quite successful on a route from San Diego or Santa Monica/Long Beach/Los Angeles to Hong Kong or Shanghai. Of course, she'll probably need a lot more fuel to do that, so she might not be economical yet.
Yes I was intending that it would be a liner in peacetime; How's this?
QuoteWenbing, RRC Transport laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 20,504 t standard; 24,020 t normal; 26,832 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.90 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.32 m x 7.47 m
Armament:
4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
Weight of broadside 142 lbs / 64 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
No fuel, Internal combustion motors,
No drive to shaft, 2 shafts, 32,211 shp / 24,030 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 21,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,328 tons
Complement:
964 - 1,254
Cost:
£1.560 million / $6.239 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 18 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 18 tons, 0.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 18 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,379 tons, 26.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,020 tons, 16.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 13,585 tons, 56.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,278 lbs / 21,445 Kg = 1,338.5 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.663
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Mid (50 %): 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Stern: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Average freeboard: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 62.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 229.9 %
Waterplane Area: 40,119 Square feet or 3,727 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 175 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 537 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.08
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc. Weights (13585t):
25t Long-Range Wireless
60t Reserve Weight
12,000t Troops Transport
1500t Cargo
QuoteMachinery:
No fuel, Internal combustion motors,
No drive to shaft, 2 shafts, 32,211 shp / 24,030 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 21,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,328 tons
It's the DKB seal of approval.
Crap, I realized I had the ship on 1950, so I changed the date and forgot to add back the engines.
QuoteWenbing, RRC Transport laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 20,500 t standard; 23,801 t normal; 26,442 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.90 ft x 25.50 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.32 m x 7.77 m
Armament:
4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
Weight of broadside 142 lbs / 64 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 31,549 shp / 23,536 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 20,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,943 tons
Complement:
957 - 1,245
Cost:
£1.919 million / $7.675 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 18 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 18 tons, 0.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 18 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,175 tons, 4.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,241 tons, 26.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,801 tons, 16.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 12,547 tons, 52.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,600 lbs / 17,509 Kg = 1,092.8 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.631
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (50 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Stern: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Average freeboard: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 217.1 %
Waterplane Area: 38,964 Square feet or 3,620 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 158 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 538 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc. Weights (12547t):
25t Long-Range Wireless
72t Reserve Weight
10,500t Troops Transport
1500t Cargo
Up the cruising speed to 20 knots, that is typical for a liner.
@above: The Liner's range @ 20 kts is 5554nm
A purpose-BB: Unfortunately that means it needs both armor and firepower which increases its weight significantly.
QuoteNamping, RRC Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
42,000 t light; 44,656 t standard; 46,822 t normal; 48,555 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.00 ft / 710.00 ft x 115.50 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
219.46 m / 216.41 m x 35.20 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,787.50lbs / 810.80kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 30,565 lbs / 13,864 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.5" / 394 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 15.5" / 394 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 9.51 ft / 2.90 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 53,482 shp / 39,898 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,898 tons
Complement:
1,590 - 2,068
Cost:
£10.070 million / $40.279 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,990 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 17,759 tons, 37.9 %
- Belts: 6,761 tons, 14.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,147 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 3,928 tons, 8.4 %
- Armour Deck: 5,782 tons, 12.3 %
- Conning Tower: 140 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,993 tons, 4.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,735 tons, 40.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,822 tons, 10.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 524 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
63,778 lbs / 28,929 Kg = 46.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 11.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 7.3 ft / 2.2 m
Roll period: 18.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.645
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.12 ft / 0.65 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 18.69 ft / 5.70 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.1 %
Waterplane Area: 62,512 Square feet or 5,808 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 234 lbs/sq ft or 1,143 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
HOLY #*$&!! Not bad, only things I'd recommend is that you cut the upper belt, 15.5" is overkill. Use the weight to add some 3" end belts to keep CLs from causing flooding outside the armored box. As to the deck, IMHO it's overkill for what we've (IC) seen in naval engagements. Nothing at the ranges that you'd need 5" deck armor has happened yet. It could be argued that RRC stresses long range gunnery, and this is why, but I still think it's too much.
I'm not to sure you've got room for all those other guns though.
6x2x6"
8x2x4.1"
4x2x75mm
10x2x0.5"
All are on sides distributed. Is there enough room for that many mounts? FWIW, that's too many 75mm anyway, and what would a 42k BB need 0.5" mgs for anyway? Nothing they can hurt should be allowed to get close enough to use them. IF they're AA...well see my 75mm comment.
The defacto RRC armour scheme is 1.5" splinter plate in front of belt (decapping in reality) and 2" weather deck + 3" main deck.
So you have a 14" MB and 3" MD. Not excessive. I'll reduce the number of secondaries, but I've have to go home for that.
Quoteand what would a 42k BB need 0.5" mgs for anyway
Probably the same reason why I use Gattlings on a number of the more recent ship designs...
... but that is wrong! That is not Chinese! That is more Swiss! That is more evil! In the fight against the Swiss, you're supposed to be the Good Guy! :D
Quote from: Logi on December 24, 2009, 03:53:56 PM
The defacto RRC armour scheme is 1.5" splinter plate in front of belt (decapping in reality) and 2" weather deck + 3" main deck.
So you have a 14" MB and 3" MD. Not excessive. I'll reduce the number of secondaries, but I've have to go home for that.
Im still not exactly comfortable with that defence, if it was France or Rohan or even the Dutch with their experiance building and fighting Capital ships I could accept it more easily I supose, but nothing personal her Logi the RRC just dosnt have the experiance building capital ships to realise the need for it (Honestly I dont think anyone in the Nverse has the experiance to realise the need)
Its not like the RRC knows it works as a decapping plate, its just a misguided attempt at something different and ended up as good, like the SoDak and Iowa. Before I knew about decapping plates I had in mind a plate in front of the MB to prematurely detonate the enemy shell so...
And weather deck's just a weather deck :D
Quote from: Logi on December 25, 2009, 11:54:01 AM
Its not like the RRC knows it works as a decapping plate, its just a misguided attempt at something different and ended up as good, like the SoDak and Iowa. Before I knew about decapping plates I had in mind a plate in front of the MB to prematurely detonate the enemy shell so...
And weather deck's just a weather deck :D
I give up, trying to explain anything to you isnt worth my time as you wont listen to logic or atempt to think like your in 1917. my entire point is there is no Logical Reason for any of us to be making the jumps people are making. Your not the only one doing it and to me trying to stay within the storyline of the Nverse its very frustrating.
I'm not that advanced in the way of thinking so.. I fail to understand. You need experience in naval battles to think of trying to prematurely set of the enemy shells? The distance between the belts is one thing but really? I know its 1917 but thinking abo9ut it: You have a shell that has a trigger that will explode on contact, or sometime after contact. If you want to protect your ship you want it to explode as far away as possible so having a thin outer belt to detonate the shell first would work in theory. I don't see any portion of this thinking that requires naval battles. If you can make the shell you can think of this.
He have had his spies snooping around in Hamburg , snoozing the designs of the Ocean class,which is designed after the experiences of the Dutch-Siamese war. ;D 8) 8),with a fuzing plate some 5-6 feet below the main armour deck,shown after the after battle assessment on the damages inflicted on the Lbc Gujarat,after the Phuket engagement.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3899.msg43389#msg43389
Per I havnt complaind about yours because I assumed you were drawing off Dutch (who are allied to you after all) Experiance (even though im not sure there were enough battles to allow for the type of info that came out OTL after Jutland). Curently with everything any of us know 3" is suficiant deck, now I am planing to jump to 4" for my next pair of BBs but my reasoning for that will involve storyline conclusions, not just "I want to do it so I am". Its much like the DD/TB question Guiness is researching, just because we can dosnt meen we should.
We had the discussion previously when I submitted the first drafts and due to lack of English i called a "decapping"plate ,but after a fruitful discussion were Sam was very helpful,I made clear that is was some sort of "fuzing plate as described above. :o So it is quite possible ESC intelligence have overlooked some measly ::) :o 8) chinese spying in Hamburg ;D:(It have been stated in the open on ESC battleshipspage)
"You know Admiral Zheng He's Treasure Junks? I want one of those."
Probably too fast for its own good, but it was just too tempting.
QuoteZheng He, RRC Treasure Junk laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Armoured Corvette (Broadside ironclad)
Displacement:
14,901 t light; 15,747 t standard; 17,136 t normal; 18,247 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
420.00 ft / 420.00 ft x 170.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
128.02 m / 128.02 m x 51.82 m x 4.27 m
Armament:
40 - 7.68" / 195 mm guns in single mounts, 226.24lbs / 102.62kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in broadside mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 9,050 lbs / 4,105 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 210.00 ft / 64.01 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 210.00 ft / 64.01 m 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 210.00 ft / 64.01 m 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 29,673 shp / 22,136 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,501 tons
Complement:
748 - 973
Cost:
£3.549 million / $14.195 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,131 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 3,561 tons, 20.8 %
- Belts: 1,489 tons, 8.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 566 tons, 3.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,449 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 57 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,106 tons, 6.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,670 tons, 50.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,235 tons, 13.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 434 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
49,879 lbs / 22,625 Kg = 220.5 x 7.7 " / 195 mm shells or 6.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.83
Metacentric height 29.5 ft / 9.0 m
Roll period: 13.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 2.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (50 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Stern: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Average freeboard: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 293.9 %
Waterplane Area: 52,221 Square feet or 4,851 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 752 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 3.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ironclade battery could be interresting to protect BBs Battle line vs TT attack.
For this job, increase the speed to 27kts (22/24kts for the BBs)
Reduce the caliber to 6" QF
Where did you place this Ironclade in the Richmond Treaty?
Jef ;)
Interesting idea, I got this.
QuoteZheng He, RRC Treasure Junk laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Armoured Corvette (Broadside ironclad)
Displacement:
10,000 t light; 10,883 t standard; 11,767 t normal; 12,474 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 71.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 21.64 m x 7.01 m
Armament:
60 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in broadside mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,480 lbs / 2,939 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
18 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 520.00 ft / 158.50 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 520.00 ft / 158.50 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 520.00 ft / 158.50 m 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 51,356 shp / 38,311 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,591 tons
Complement:
564 - 734
Cost:
£2.833 million / $11.330 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 810 tons, 6.9 %
Armour: 2,881 tons, 24.5 %
- Belts: 1,308 tons, 11.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 423 tons, 3.6 %
- Armament: 421 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 673 tons, 5.7 %
- Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,913 tons, 16.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,065 tons, 34.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,767 tons, 15.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 330 tons, 2.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,366 lbs / 5,155 Kg = 105.2 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 13.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.485
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 17.43 ft / 5.31 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 152.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.8 %
Waterplane Area: 24,269 Square feet or 2,255 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 113 lbs/sq ft or 551 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
NEDS...I repeat NEDS!!!!
It's broadside mount, 30 on each side. Its also single 6"s, which leaves more than enough space for all the rounds etc. Older ships-of-line have packed far more on far less space. The only thing that worries me really is the torpedo mounts.
If we lined up the 6"s all directly, it would only take 30 ft in total for each side.
The ammo space, if packed to the ideal would take 202.5 cubical ft. There's enough space....
Quote from: Logi on February 23, 2010, 05:37:59 PM
It's broadside mount, 30 on each side. Its also single 6"s, which leaves more than enough space for all the rounds etc. Older ships-of-line have packed far more on far less space.
If they were on 2 gun decks, I could see that.
A flush deck ship would be too small.
I had intended it to be a two-decker but I'm not quite sure how to simulate that in SS.
Easy to simulate 2 deckers in SS just raise or lower half the guns.
QuoteZheng He, RRC Treasure Junk laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Armoured Corvette (Broadside ironclad)
Displacement:
10,000 t light; 10,663 t standard; 11,536 t normal; 12,235 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 21.34 m x 7.01 m
Armament:
60 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in broadside mounts
on side, evenly spread, 30 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,480 lbs / 2,939 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
18 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 520.00 ft / 158.50 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 520.00 ft / 158.50 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 520.00 ft / 158.50 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 50,565 shp / 37,722 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,572 tons
Complement:
556 - 723
Cost:
£2.824 million / $11.294 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 810 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 2,828 tons, 24.5 %
- Belts: 1,270 tons, 11.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 443 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 421 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 662 tons, 5.7 %
- Conning Tower: 33 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,884 tons, 16.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,177 tons, 36.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,536 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,395 lbs / 5,169 Kg = 105.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.482
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.68 ft / 5.39 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 152.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.6 %
Waterplane Area: 23,869 Square feet or 2,217 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 570 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.64
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I think it would be better described as lowered, since I've read several accounts of battle's of that era, (Jack Aubrey, anyone?), that describe that ships of the line could not engage with their full braodside if the surf was rough, since the ports would flood.
I remember something like that too, had to increase the freeboard to counteract the seakeeping drop (1.21->0.83)
QuoteZheng He, RRC Treasure Junk laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Armoured Frigate (Broadside ironclad)
Displacement:
10,000 t light; 10,663 t standard; 11,536 t normal; 12,234 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 71.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 21.64 m x 7.01 m
Armament:
60 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in broadside mounts
on side, evenly spread
30 guns on gundeck (upper belt level) - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 6,480 lbs / 2,939 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
18 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 520.00 ft / 158.50 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 520.00 ft / 158.50 m 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 520.00 ft / 158.50 m 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 50,501 shp / 37,673 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,572 tons
Complement:
556 - 723
Cost:
£2.823 million / $11.292 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 810 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 2,991 tons, 25.9 %
- Belts: 1,424 tons, 12.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 423 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 421 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 668 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Tower: 55 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,882 tons, 16.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,013 tons, 34.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,536 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 305 tons, 2.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,363 lbs / 4,701 Kg = 96.0 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 151.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.0 %
Waterplane Area: 24,065 Square feet or 2,236 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 116 lbs/sq ft or 566 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
-----------------------
The expensive Banana discussion led me to think about a Puritan/General Wolfe style Monitor:
QuotePuritan, RRC Monitor laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,350 t standard; 8,790 t normal; 9,142 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
390.00 ft / 390.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 13.00 ft (normal load)
118.87 m / 118.87 m x 30.48 m x 3.96 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
6 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 6,916 lbs / 3,137 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 45
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 210.00 ft / 64.01 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,722 shp / 2,030 Kw = 12.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 791 tons
Complement:
453 - 590
Cost:
£1.972 million / $7.886 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 726 tons, 8.3 %
Armour: 2,024 tons, 23.0 %
- Belts: 866 tons, 9.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 59 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,062 tons, 12.1 %
- Conning Tower: 37 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 101 tons, 1.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,999 tons, 56.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 790 tons, 9.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,494 lbs / 6,121 Kg = 9.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.75
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.607
Length to Beam Ratio: 3.90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 27 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 94
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Mid (50 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Stern: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 8.92 ft / 2.72 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.4 %
Waterplane Area: 28,706 Square feet or 2,667 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 165 lbs/sq ft or 805 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
I think your right TC, I have read all the books in the Master and Comander series, and there are several referances to that.
I think the best example is that time they battle the French off of India with the China fleet, and since the weather was rough to leeward, they couldn't use the lower battery.
Welcome the SS Wang Chung, the Springsharp counterpart to the RL SS Dakotan by the USA (American-Hawaii Route) and later sold to the Russians. This is the pre-war version.
QuoteSS Wang Chung, RRC Cargo Ship laid down 1920
Displacement:
8,792 t light; 8,985 t standard; 9,646 t normal; 10,175 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
428.75 ft / 407.83 ft x 53.50 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
130.68 m / 124.31 m x 16.31 m x 7.01 m
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 5,466 ihp / 4,078 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 5,900nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,190 tons
Complement:
486 - 632
Cost:
£0.833 million / $3.334 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 321 tons, 3.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,921 tons, 19.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 854 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6,550 tons, 67.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,429 lbs / 2,009 Kg = 41.0 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 0.82
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 20.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.67
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.673
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.62 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 35 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 30
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 36.05 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.3 %
Waterplane Area: 16,884 Square feet or 1,569 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 352 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.47
- Overall: 1.00
Caution: Poor stability - excessive risk of capsizing
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily
Military Bought: $8.8 Mil
Refurbished to Aircraft Carrier Duty: $0.765 & 0.325 BP
Total: $9.56 & 0.325 BP
QuoteCNS Wang Chung, RRC Cargo Ship laid down 1920
Displacement:
8,792 t light; 8,985 t standard; 9,646 t normal; 10,175 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
428.75 ft / 407.83 ft x 53.50 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
130.68 m / 124.31 m x 16.31 m x 7.01 m
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 5,466 ihp / 4,078 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 5,900nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,190 tons
Complement:
486 - 632
Cost:
£0.833 million / $3.334 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 321 tons, 3.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,921 tons, 19.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 854 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6,550 tons, 67.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,429 lbs / 2,009 Kg = 41.0 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 0.82
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 20.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.67
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.673
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.62 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 35 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 30
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 36.05 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.3 %
Waterplane Area: 16,884 Square feet or 1,569 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 352 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.47
- Overall: 1.00
Caution: Poor stability - excessive risk of capsizing
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily
6550 Cargo Weight:
Modified to:
196 Tons - Aircraft Facilities for 14 Aircrafts.
48 Tons - Aerial Torpedoes (48 of them)
16 Tons - Climatization
15 Tons - Medical Facilties
25 Tons - Long-Range Wireless
25 Tons - Radar
2000 Tons - Cargo Weight
3750 Tons - 1.5 Tons per Soldiers (Total 2500 soldiers carried)
475 Tons - 1 ton per Short-Ranged Landing Craft (Total Capacity - 1900 Soldiers)
Good luck. That stability looks TERRIBLE.
Huh I thought I fixed that... guess not. I will need to work with it some more.
Quote from: Logi on July 19, 2010, 09:28:31 PM
Huh I thought I fixed that... guess not. I will need to work with it some more.
It's the misc weight, SS assumes it's all above waterline.
Yea I was wondering how the same exact dimensions, misc weight, etc was unavailable to work in SS.
I'll just produce a modified version for SS. Probably by reducing the misc weight and adding bunkerage :-\
Quote from: Logi on February 23, 2010, 05:37:59 PM
It's broadside mount, 30 on each side. Its also single 6"s, which leaves more than enough space for all the rounds etc. Older ships-of-line have packed far more on far less space. The only thing that worries me really is the torpedo mounts.
If we lined up the 6"s all directly, it would only take 30 ft in total for each side.
The ammo space, if packed to the ideal would take 202.5 cubical ft. There's enough space....
Heh, and I thought I was being cute with my 24x 18cm ships using double-stacked casements.... :)
Interesting idea, but I do wonder what you give up in both lateral training ability, and - more important in this age, elevation. Casements limited elevation, which didn't matter when ranges were short, but did as FC improved.
Not to mention that broadside mounts are typically not fixed, so one presumes the guns will need some re-alignment between shots.
QuoteRandell, RRC Port Assault Ship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
10,000 t light; 10,269 t standard; 11,126 t normal; 11,811 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
480.00 ft / 480.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
146.30 m / 146.30 m x 24.38 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
1 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
Weight of broadside 540 lbs / 245 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 137
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 9,060 shp / 6,759 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,542 tons
Complement:
541 - 704
Cost:
£1.073 million / $4.292 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 68 tons, 0.6 %
Armour: 65 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 33 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 32 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 338 tons, 3.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,255 tons, 29.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,126 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6,275 tons, 56.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,481 lbs / 7,929 Kg = 161.9 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.99
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 35 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 174.5 %
Waterplane Area: 24,783 Square feet or 2,302 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 147 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 91 lbs/sq ft or 446 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.72
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
-----
QuoteBM-1, RRC Monitor laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
2,000 t light; 2,118 t standard; 2,207 t normal; 2,278 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
270.00 ft / 270.00 ft x 45.00 ft x 12.50 ft (normal load)
82.30 m / 82.30 m x 13.72 m x 3.81 m
Armament:
2 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (1x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
Weight of broadside 1,331 lbs / 604 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 143.00 ft / 43.59 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,068 shp / 797 Kw = 12.00 kts
Range 2,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 160 tons
Complement:
160 - 209
Cost:
£0.509 million / $2.036 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 166 tons, 7.5 %
Armour: 565 tons, 25.6 %
- Belts: 237 tons, 10.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 95 tons, 4.3 %
- Armour Deck: 218 tons, 9.9 %
- Conning Tower: 15 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 40 tons, 1.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 979 tons, 44.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 207 tons, 9.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 11.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,639 lbs / 1,197 Kg = 4.0 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.509
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 31 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Mid (50 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Stern: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 6.68 ft / 2.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 62.9 %
Waterplane Area: 7,855 Square feet or 730 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 94 lbs/sq ft or 458 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.67
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Just 152 mm guns ? Maybe it's too weak for a port assaut. And you lack of light defence : if a company of marines counter attack your ship, it will be past a bad hour. Some machine guns could increase his defence.
And why not using rockets ? Like a Soviet Polnocny class ?
QuoteJust 152 mm guns ? Maybe it's too weak for a port assault.
Weak? What century are you talking about? APA's usually carried only 1 5" gun. This has 5 6" guns...
QuoteAnd you lack of light defence : if a company of marines counter attack your ship,
I would expect the 25,000 troops (or 6,250 troops) on board to be able to counter such a weak attempt.
QuoteAnd why not using rockets ? Like a Soviet Polnocny class ?
Rocketry in the Cold War period with rocketry in just post-WW1 period... You are comparing Rockets are unreliable unreliable at the moment and having those large amount of unprotected explosions on deck of a 10,000 ton vessel is just asking for a sympathetic detonation. That also means those troops on board is going to die in such a case too. Not ideal.
QuoteRandell, RRC Port Assault Ship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
10,000 t light; 10,267 t standard; 11,123 t normal; 11,808 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
480.00 ft / 480.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
146.30 m / 146.30 m x 24.38 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
1 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 541 lbs / 245 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 9,059 shp / 6,758 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,542 tons
Complement:
541 - 704
Cost:
£1.073 million / $4.292 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 68 tons, 0.6 %
Armour: 65 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 33 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 32 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 338 tons, 3.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,255 tons, 29.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,123 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6,275 tons, 56.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,486 lbs / 7,932 Kg = 161.9 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.98
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 35 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.93 ft / 6.07 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 174.5 %
Waterplane Area: 24,780 Square feet or 2,302 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 147 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 91 lbs/sq ft or 447 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.71
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
QuoteI would expect the 25,000 troops (or 6,250 troops) on board to be able to counter such a weak attempt
Sure. But if your troops engage the enemy far of their ship... and if a little motor torpedo boat infiltrated your convoy and attack your transport ? It was the same problem for the German Elefant tank hunter at the battle of Kursk : a big gun, but not only one self-defence gun. And, in a middle of a huge battle, without friendly soldiers near the vehicle...
With eight machine guns, you will seriously increase the life expectation of your transport. ;)
I think the troops would have 0.5" machineguns on them, quite a number of rifles too, but the MGs allow it to operate after the troops leave. Required a ton or two, but not bad.
Welcome the SS Wang Chung, the Springsharp counterpart to the RL SS Dakotan by the USA (American-Hawaii Route) and later sold to the Russians.
Because SS assumes all misc weight is above water whereas it is not, half of the weight (3275t) has been simmed as bunkerage.
The true bunkerage is 5900nm @ 12 kts.
Military Bought: $0.55 Mil
Refurbished to Aircraft Carrier Duty: $0.33 & 0.22 BP
Total: $0.88 & 0.22 BP
QuoteCNS Wang Chung, RRC Cargo Ship laid down 1920
Displacement:
5,519 t light; 5,712 t standard; 9,650 t normal; 12,799 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
428.75 ft / 407.83 ft x 53.50 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
130.68 m / 124.31 m x 16.31 m x 7.01 m
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 5,468 ihp / 4,079 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 21,510nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,087 tons
Complement:
486 - 632
Cost:
£0.563 million / $2.251 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 321 tons, 3.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,923 tons, 19.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,130 tons, 42.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,275 tons, 33.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,038 lbs / 8,182 Kg = 167.0 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.78
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.673
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.62 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 35 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 32
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 36.05 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 48.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.3 %
Waterplane Area: 16,888 Square feet or 1,569 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 246 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 352 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.47
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily
6550 Cargo Weight:
Modified to:
196 Tons - Aircraft Facilities for 14 Aircrafts.
24 Tons - Aerial Torpedoes (24 of them)
6330 Tons - Cargo Weight
The picture of Wang Chung.
There is only one elevator on this boat, that is the fore. The aft is a hole. The elevator function is provided by the nearby cranes. Also the cranes do move crates and what-not that is loaded onto the ship down the "hole" and into the storage areas. Crew can take the stairs down the "hole".
The lighter flag colors indicate it is a mercantile ship.
The location of the funnel on the Dakotan meant that there was not enough length for fore-takeoff if the funnel existed. This meant the funnel was ducted and moved to the side.
For observation, there is a ladder from the superstructure below the flight deck to a small platform extending from the funnel. There is a small console with a horn (for communication with the below crew) and a small telescope.
I didn't want to remove the forward cranes, so they remained. Their load is limited as it can not be readily moved to a storage area. Thus at most used for small things like moving some fuel tanks, food, etc.
(http://i34.tinypic.com/20sgg2w.jpg)
Scale: 2 Pixels = 1 Foot
Concept sketch.
Carries 60 aeroplanes in a single hangar, the rest of the weight carried is misc for use as a tender. It holds 12,000 tons of tendering equipment, etc. Carries 4 6"/62 guns on each side to ward off stray small ships and light cruisers. Armored with a 3" belt running from top to underwater sloped 20 degrees.
Not sure about how this goes for costs, probably full price and BP.
QuoteHongXing, RRC Aircraft Carrier laid down 1922
Displacement:
22,250 t light; 22,945 t standard; 31,125 t normal; 37,669 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.80 ft / 721.80 ft x 90.00 ft (Bulges 95.00 ft) x 30.00 ft (normal load)
220.00 m / 220.00 m x 27.43 m (Bulges 28.96 m) x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1922 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 865 lbs / 392 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 490.00 ft / 149.35 m 15.34 ft / 4.68 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.00" / 76 mm 490.00 ft / 149.35 m 15.34 ft / 4.68 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.50" / 64 mm 490.00 ft / 149.35 m 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Conning tower: 2.60" / 66 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19,415 shp / 14,483 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 20,124nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 14,725 tons
Complement:
1,171 - 1,523
Cost:
£2.623 million / $10.492 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 108 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 3,500 tons, 11.2 %
- Belts: 1,903 tons, 6.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,541 tons, 5.0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 55 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 659 tons, 2.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,733 tons, 24.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8,875 tons, 28.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10,250 tons, 32.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
68,493 lbs / 31,068 Kg = 634.2 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 14.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.67
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.530
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 27 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 30
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 59.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.9 %
Waterplane Area: 44,478 Square feet or 4,132 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 195 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 572 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
"Tends to be wet forward" might be messy with that forecastle elevator; you might be shipping a great deal of green water down into the hull. Raised stem, perhaps?
I tend not to trust springsharp's tibits on such items.
For the Wang Chung:
As calculated the bow wave generated from moving 15 kts is roughly 2'.
With the stem freeboard being 15 ft, that means it can safely take the Chinese Seas. The waves in the Chinese Seas go, at most, 3' tall.
For the HongXing:
The bow wave generated from moving 18 kts is roughly 2.83'.
Again with the waves of the Chinese Seas, a 21 ft tall flush deck, it's not going to be wet.
Incidentally, how does one calculate the size of the bow wave?
I mentioned in my posts in the thread "Design Bureau Guangzhou",
The Bow Wave height at the forward perpendicular is caluclated by:
hs = 0.75 x b x ( l / le ) x Fr^2
Fr = Froude Number or V / sqrt(gLlwl)
V = speed in meters per second, not knots
l = length overall
le = waterline length
b = waterline beam of the ship (in meters)
The calculation comes out as a meters value, I just convert it to imperial for my ease of use.
It is by no means an exact value, but comes as a very good approximation.
I guess with the first overhaul, that the whole front will be enclosed, to create more work and storage space.
Probably will be done, once they test it out and the order manages to get through it's stack of paperwork.
Assuming it lasts long enough to get that refit. Chinese waters seem to be dangerous.
Indeed there is that.
Another concept sketch, it's really an undergunned battleship.
It has a heavy secondary battery to deal with smaller ships, and 6 11" "prize" guns for heavy targets. It's heavy armor allows it some 6500 yds of immunity zone against 15" and 16" shells, but it is all towards the far side. The main purpose is that the ship can skirt at the edge and flirt with the enemy ship if needed as a distraction, maintaining the distance, and with the already large distance for immunity zone, it can quickly retreat as well.
Whilst 11" shells are mostly useless against the enemy ships, around the outer edge of the ship's immunity zone, the 11" heavies can penetrate 3" of deck armor.
QuoteMisty Dragon, RRC Commerce Raider laid down 1922
Displacement:
22,000 t light; 22,777 t standard; 23,696 t normal; 24,432 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
640.00 ft / 620.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
195.07 m / 188.98 m x 26.82 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (8x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 6,528 lbs / 2,961 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.2" / 310 mm 405.00 ft / 123.44 m 19.16 ft / 5.84 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 405.00 ft / 123.44 m 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 88,173 shp / 65,777 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,655 tons
Complement:
954 - 1,241
Cost:
£4.880 million / $19.521 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 715 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 10,152 tons, 42.8 %
- Belts: 4,079 tons, 17.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,236 tons, 5.2 %
- Armament: 1,303 tons, 5.5 %
- Armour Deck: 3,499 tons, 14.8 %
- Conning Tower: 36 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,991 tons, 12.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,841 tons, 33.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,696 tons, 7.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,387 lbs / 15,598 Kg = 51.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 6.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.543
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.70 ft / 2.04 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.08 ft / 5.51 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.9 %
Waterplane Area: 37,824 Square feet or 3,514 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 718 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
I like her. She's fast enough to dictate the range at which she fights, which complements her gunnery strategy nicely.
It's an overgrown Panzerschiffe. Most of this over growth is due to the armor, which isn't a bad way to improve a Panzerschiffe, but I think more speed and a little less armor would do you better in the end. She can still be caught by those damnable Dutch "Frigates". Kinda reminds me of an overgrown N3 Moltke too. :)
Problem is adding speed for 30 kts is so expensive, the trade off isn't really worth it. The trade-off makes it vulnerable at nearly every range.
Main battery is in triple 11" turrets, both forward ala Richelieu. Secondary in twin mounts, 3 each side plus 2 in Xy aft giving a 10 gun broadside of 6" for sinking merchants and anti-CL/DD defense. Got speed up to 30kts by adding some freeboard to keep (actually improved 1.04 vs 1.02) seakeeping and adding 10ft to the length. Belt is only 11" instead of 12.2" but at ranges where you're using the 11" to engage larger units 11" armor is still effective, plus w/ the all-forward arraignment you won't have to show your sides as much. Belts are shorter to save weight, but really a 19'+ deep belt was unnecessary to begin with. 16'+ is more than fine even w/ wave motion. A 4" deck will stop ANY N3 shell in existence/under design at this time. The only reason they got thicker IRL was AP Bombs, not long range shell fire.
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1922
Displacement:
22,000 t light; 22,777 t standard; 23,698 t normal; 24,435 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
650.00 ft / 630.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
198.12 m / 192.02 m x 26.82 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x3 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
Weight of broadside 6,528 lbs / 2,961 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 413.45 ft / 126.02 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 413.45 ft / 126.02 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 115,073 shp / 85,845 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,658 tons
Complement:
954 - 1,241
Cost:
£5.229 million / $20.915 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 715 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 8,443 tons, 35.6 %
- Belts: 3,204 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,147 tons, 4.8 %
- Armament: 1,235 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,821 tons, 11.9 %
- Conning Tower: 36 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,903 tons, 16.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,638 tons, 36.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,698 tons, 7.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,182 lbs / 14,144 Kg = 46.9 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.534
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.16 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 36.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.24 ft / 0.68 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.24 ft / 6.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.9 %
Waterplane Area: 38,128 Square feet or 3,542 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 155 lbs/sq ft or 759 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.65
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
QuoteMain battery is in triple 11" turrets,
The real challenge was to avoid triple turrets, since although these are concept sketches, they are made with estimates on RRC naval gun technologies. Triple 11" turrets will not likely come soon.
QuoteBelts are shorter to save weight, but really a 19'+ deep belt was unnecessary to begin with.
It was sloped 20 degrees for a 18 ft tall belt.
Quote16'+ is more than fine even w/ wave motion.
Actually, the bow wave height and trough for 28kt is 7', in which added to 3' Chinese sea waves, require at least 10' underwater protection.
For your ship, the bow wave crest and trough is 8'. Add with a 3' Chinese wave, and in one motion, 11' of the underwater hull is exposed. Of this, a good chunk being unarmored.
Yes, the tall belt was quite necessary, it was the reason I didn't scale it back even though it was heavy.
QuoteA 4" deck will stop ANY N3 shell in existence/under design at this time.
Actually, quite false. It would stop any shell at normal battle ranges, but I am talking about engagements on the fringe, ranges of 30,000 yds. Here the 11" can compete with heavier armed battleships and sport the armor to be invulnerable there. It can penetrate enemy decks with the inferior 11" caliber whilst being protected from retaliation.
I was designing for a slug fest, I would give it less deck and more belt, sacrificing speed. Such are made to engage at 10-20 hyd after all. But this ship is designed for the edges of battle where it can escape easily if needed. It is meant to suppress for a few moments as a temporary support force, not a work in the battleline.
The 11" are modern 11"s, designed for firing at good range, not at low elevations. It is not meant to weave into the battleline but become a skirting element on the edge of battle. A nuisance that can be chased off but can return to harass again.
With the armor you gave it, it can't operate anywhere, anywhere useful, against 3" of deck armor. Belt armor is hopeless for the ship to talk about. So you rendered, with the deduction of deck armor, the ship completely useless. At that point, it is better to simply slim down the ship with 10" belt and 2" deck instead, for that is the useful amount for the amount of work the lower armor delegates it to.
This is simply because whilst 4" of deck may be good for battleships, 11" of belt is useless against large caliber ships. It turns the lower boundary of immunity far too high, making there be virtually no immunity zone.
At the ranges you're intending her to fight the odds of a belt hit are ~10% of all hits. Of course at 30,000yds the odds of hitting are like 2% anyway.
True, but close in and the 11" is useless. The solution would be somehow fit at least a 14" in there.
Perhaps something like this, an all forward armament of a quad 14" and a super-firing twin 14". Lighter belt, but not by much, a 4" deck, and heavy turret and barbette armor.
QuoteMisty Dragon, RRC Commerce Raider laid down 1922
Displacement:
26,000 t light; 27,256 t standard; 28,287 t normal; 29,112 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
660.00 ft / 640.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
201.17 m / 195.07 m x 27.43 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2 mounts), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 2 raised guns - superfiring
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (10x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 12,060 lbs / 5,470 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 416.00 ft / 126.80 m 19.16 ft / 5.84 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 416.00 ft / 126.80 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 98,187 shp / 73,247 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,857 tons
Complement:
1,089 - 1,417
Cost:
£6.729 million / $26.918 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,299 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 10,570 tons, 37.4 %
- Belts: 4,130 tons, 14.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,347 tons, 4.8 %
- Armament: 2,014 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,039 tons, 10.7 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 3,331 tons, 11.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,433 tons, 36.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,287 tons, 8.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 367 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,881 lbs / 15,822 Kg = 25.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.573
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 19.16 ft / 5.84 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136.5 %
Waterplane Area: 41,073 Square feet or 3,816 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 869 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
I preferred the early draft, although I'd not have gone with a Richelieu setup - she's going to be spending as much time moving away as moving towards, after all.
As regards armour schemes - if she's faster, she gets to choose engagement range. She seems to be set up to fight at very long ranges, where (as you point out) a modern 11" will kill 3" deck plating on the off chance a hit actually manages to be scored. This being the case, your main belt might need to be higher, but it can be very thin - belt armour isn't really a factor at long range, but you're not always going to have the luxury of fighting at your ideal range.
Finally, why a 2" conning tower? Might as well not have one at all. BLU is coming to the belief that, since many captains choose not to fight from within the conning tower, but risk injury for the greater visibility from the bridge, conning towers may be obsolete.
Quote from: Laertes on October 10, 2010, 02:59:29 AM
Finally, why a 2" conning tower? Might as well not have one at all. BLU is coming to the belief that, since many captains choose not to fight from within the conning tower, but risk injury for the greater visibility from the bridge, conning towers may be obsolete.
Me and Logi already discussed this on one of his earlier designs. Basically it's comes down to this; If you can't/won't devote the armor needed to STOP a large caliber AP round, then just put enough on it to stop HE from CL/DDs and let the AP rounds pass through. 2" is a little thin even for 4-6" HE rounds, but meh.
2" conning tower probably won't weight enough to affect the design.
- Laertes
(Is still unsure over whether I should have said "effect" instead of "affect")
These designs remind me of the Indian battleship I built over in Wesworld. For a middle power, it's not a bad investment - you pretty much need a treaty-max ship to have a decisive edge over her.
For Laertes: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/affect-versus-effect.aspx
I think the chances of hitting anything with 11" guns at 30k yards in our period (presumably 11"L45 or 11"L50) would be virtually nil, especially with only 6 guns. Salvos will be slow, c. 1920 pre-radar fire control simply won't be accurate enough, and spotting splashes at 30k yards is tough.
And if a ship is counting on extreme range being the decisive edge, it better have sufficient speed to keep the range of engagement that large. If I'm the Admiral of the opposing force and I have more and bigger guns, and probably better armor too, I'd just work my hardest to close the range until I start scoring frequent hits.
All that said, I think we tend to concentrate too much on single-ship engagement scenarios. I say we, as I'm to blame too. How many single ship vs. single ship capital ship actions ever took place OTL or in the Nverse? Not many. Most useful to consider may be squadron or division level tactics. How would a division of 2 or 3 ships work against a prospective enemy division of 2 or 3? Can fielding, say, 4 smaller ships vs. 2 larger ships be an advantage, etc. etc.
Well the strange thing about the 2nd Pacific War, with the exception of Tarakan, just about all the battles were 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2. The first Rift Sea battle was a 2 vs 2 and a 1 vs 1. Larger engagements have been exceedingly rare.
Most of the combatant nations have their fleets spread out or have small navies to begin with (or at least small in the numbers of capital ships they can send to any given area).
Few nations have the numbers to do line tactics that battleships are designed to engage in broadside fire like the old days of sailing ships. This is pretty much why there hasn't been a "Jutland" yet.
It would also be a result of the much lower than OTL building capacity, Even for nations the can build extensive battlelines, its not the smartest thing to do so due to the lack of escorts. If you want a balanced approach, you cant have a huge battleline
Ahoj!
Quote from: Guinness on October 10, 2010, 08:04:20 PM
For Laertes: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/affect-versus-effect.aspx
I think the chances of hitting anything with 11" guns at 30k yards in our period (presumably 11"L45 or 11"L50) would be virtually nil,
Specifically - 0,0.
No hits over 25K, ever ...
Borys
Quote from: Borys on October 11, 2010, 12:34:00 AM
Ahoj!
Quote from: Guinness on October 10, 2010, 08:04:20 PM
For Laertes: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/affect-versus-effect.aspx
I think the chances of hitting anything with 11" guns at 30k yards in our period (presumably 11"L45 or 11"L50) would be virtually nil,
Specifically - 0,0.
No hits over 25K, ever ...
Borys
25km, yes, 25k yards, no - both Warspite and Sch hit at ~26,000 yards.
Quote... 25km, yes, 25k yards, no - both Warspite and Sch hit at ~26,000 yards...
IMO, that must be our max hit distance.
Jef
I'm perfectly willing to accept whichever hit probabilities the mods want to impose vs ships, but the Maori design their turrets to elevate to maximum theoretical range... for purposes of shore bombardment. Hitting an immobile target should be rather simpler, shouldn't it?
You can in theory hit things farther away than 26,000 yards...just no one has ever hit a moving target from another moving object at those ranges when it comes to pre-rocket technology warships.
A battleship could in theory hit land based targets using spotter aircraft out to and a little beyond 30,000 yards. The US 16"/50 cal on the Iowa class is suppose to be able to hit targets out to 44,000 yards (25 miles) using spotters.
Ahoj!
OK - let it be 26 K yards. And I was indeed thinking of ship vs ship. The Germans managed to hit a city at 120 kilometres ...
Borys
From ship to shore, the "record" stands for the WW I monitor HMS General Wolfe, firing her 18" gun at a target 36 000 yars inland, a bridge in Snaeskerk.
The ship got a whole lot fatter in order to get an additional turret in and some more speed squeezed out.
Now it's a full-fledged fast battleship rather than a commerce raider / pocket battleship.
QuoteMisty Dragon, RRC Fast Battleship laid down 1922
Displacement:
34,000 t light; 35,513 t standard; 37,015 t normal; 38,217 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
711.00 ft / 690.00 ft x 101.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
216.71 m / 210.31 m x 30.78 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
9 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 17,010 lbs / 7,716 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 447.00 ft / 136.25 m 19.16 ft / 5.84 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 447.00 ft / 136.25 m 36.00 ft / 10.97 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 140,000 shp / 104,440 Kw = 29.42 kts
Range 7,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,704 tons
Complement:
1,333 - 1,734
Cost:
£9.213 million / $36.853 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,814 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 12,892 tons, 34.8 %
- Belts: 4,467 tons, 12.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,489 tons, 4.0 %
- Armament: 3,094 tons, 8.4 %
- Armour Deck: 3,771 tons, 10.2 %
- Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,749 tons, 12.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,233 tons, 38.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,015 tons, 8.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
45,607 lbs / 20,687 Kg = 33.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 4.90 ft / 1.49 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.93 ft / 6.99 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.5 %
Waterplane Area: 50,954 Square feet or 4,734 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 198 lbs/sq ft or 968 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
The somewhat larger but faster pocket battleship version:
The high speed allows it to dictate the range at which it fights, making it so the ranges are typically very large, so the chance of hitting belt is very small. Thus hits will be established on the tough 4" deck instead of the comparatively thin *' sloped @ 20 degrees main belt.
The guns are mounted fore and aft, so firing is possible when rushing and retreating.
QuoteMisty Dragon, RRC Fast Battleship laid down 1922
Displacement:
26,000 t light; 27,122 t standard; 28,475 t normal; 29,557 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
719.60 ft / 700.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
219.34 m / 213.36 m x 27.43 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 12,060 lbs / 5,470 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 487.00 ft / 148.44 m 19.16 ft / 5.84 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 122,682 shp / 91,520 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,436 tons
Complement:
1,095 - 1,424
Cost:
£7.047 million / $28.187 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,299 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 9,294 tons, 32.6 %
- Belts: 3,147 tons, 11.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,057 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 1,791 tons, 6.3 %
- Armour Deck: 3,240 tons, 11.4 %
- Conning Tower: 60 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,162 tons, 14.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,934 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,475 tons, 8.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,381 lbs / 15,141 Kg = 24.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.545
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.60 ft / 1.71 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.3 %
Waterplane Area: 43,782 Square feet or 4,067 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 850 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
I like the concept.
IMO,
This is a BC, not a BB.
I decrease deck armor & increase belt armor.
Jef
I think I'm in love.
I think it takes about 4 Knots of extra speed to clearly dictate range on an opponent and still maintain open firing arcs of course I could be wrong . All told this ship is nice but does not out class ships laid down in some cases already. She is counting on achieving deck hits on an Enemy Ship while resisting the same from her opponent.
I Believe Korpen [Dutch] Battle Cruisers/Armored Frigates were meant to do that as well but they had a significant advantage in fire power, speed, and Fire Control when they were first laid down. Something that time has erroded.
All total Misty Dragon is a nice ship but one that wont be completed until 1925 at the earliest. Ships laid down by other powers recently can handle this ships in a strait up fight. Now I will admit most of them out weight the Misty Dragon by 10K Tons Light Displacement. So she is a nice ship for her tonnage but she doesnt want to fight either the UNK Hoods, the Dutch Dereuyters I Believe or I think a couple of the other new laydowns that are already under construction.
She is a well designed Light Battle Cruiser with 6 Guns.
Charles
Quote from: Borys on October 11, 2010, 09:35:45 PM
Ahoj!
OK - let it be 26 K yards. And I was indeed thinking of ship vs ship. The Germans managed to hit a city at 120 kilometres ...
Borys
Actually they managed
not to hit a city at 120 km. Out of a hundred or so shells only a handful hit central Paris (several kilometers in diameter!).
P.S.:
Wikipedia gives somewhat more optimistic numbers, I will have to check my books at the weekend.
Quote from: Nobody on October 15, 2010, 02:47:52 AM
Quote from: Borys on October 11, 2010, 09:35:45 PM
Ahoj!
OK - let it be 26 K yards. And I was indeed thinking of ship vs ship. The Germans managed to hit a city at 120 kilometres ...
Borys
Actually they managed not to hit a city at 120 km. Out of a hundred or so shells only a handful hit central Paris (several kilometers in diameter!).
P.S.:
Wikipedia gives somewhat more optimistic numbers, I will have to check my books at the weekend.
When your throwing a shell as small as the Paris Gun did does it really matter how many hit... other then the inconvenience of an occasional light shell landing somewhere near Paris it was really a waste of time and money. But I guess it was good for Hun morale were shelling Paris and an irritant to French Morale the Huns are shelling Paris.... ;)
Quote from: Nobody on October 15, 2010, 02:47:52 AM
Quote from: Borys on October 11, 2010, 09:35:45 PM
Ahoj!
OK - let it be 26 K yards. And I was indeed thinking of ship vs ship. The Germans managed to hit a city at 120 kilometres ...
Borys
Actually they managed not to hit a city at 120 km. Out of a hundred or so shells only a handful hit central Paris (several kilometers in diameter!).
P.S.:
Wikipedia gives somewhat more optimistic numbers, I will have to check my books at the weekend.
Ok, found the book. Let me 'quote':
"Out of 303 fired shells only 183 hit the ~90 km diameter sized core of Paris"
That's still ~60% accuracy at 120km....
Quote from: Sachmle on October 15, 2010, 04:07:04 PM
That's still ~60% accuracy at 120km....
I wouldn't call that accuracy.
Look at it this way: It's the same as shooting at a 3 meter sized target from 4 meters away and missing(!) nearly half of the time.
It is not the bullet with your name on it that you need to fear.
It is the Grenade, Artillary Shell, or Bomb address to whom it may concern,
or dear occupant....
I am a teapot, short and stout.
QuoteTeapot, RRC Battleship laid down 1923
Displacement:
20,228 t light; 21,479 t standard; 22,361 t normal; 23,067 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.90 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.32 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
20 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (10x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 14,254 lbs / 6,466 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 207.00 ft / 63.09 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 2 shafts, 30,114 shp / 22,465 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,588 tons
Complement:
913 - 1,188
Cost:
£6.144 million / $24.577 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,504 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 8,567 tons, 38.3 %
- Belts: 4,665 tons, 20.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 324 tons, 1.4 %
- Armament: 1,400 tons, 6.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,110 tons, 9.4 %
- Conning Tower: 68 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,006 tons, 4.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,751 tons, 39.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,134 tons, 9.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,602 lbs / 12,520 Kg = 20.1 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.605
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.02 ft / 3.97 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.9 %
Waterplane Area: 38,023 Square feet or 3,532 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 890 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Project A24
QuoteA24, RRC Light Cruiser laid down 1924
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,362 t standard; 9,006 t normal; 9,521 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 55.00 ft x 19.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 16.76 m x 5.79 m
Armament:
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1924 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1924 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (2x4 guns), 2.05lbs / 0.93kg shells, 1924 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,744 lbs / 791 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
8 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 64,230 shp / 47,916 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,158 tons
Complement:
461 - 600
Cost:
£2.347 million / $9.388 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 218 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 2,165 tons, 24.0 %
- Belts: 1,628 tons, 18.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 119 tons, 1.3 %
- Armour Deck: 390 tons, 4.3 %
- Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,116 tons, 23.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,310 tons, 36.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,006 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 191 tons, 2.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,655 lbs / 4,833 Kg = 98.7 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.548
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 18.73 ft / 5.71 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.8 %
Waterplane Area: 21,080 Square feet or 1,958 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 97 lbs/sq ft or 473 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
(http://i53.tinypic.com/517ndy.jpg)
QuoteXinri, Large Battleship laid down 1924
Displacement:
30,000 t light; 31,497 t standard; 32,619 t normal; 33,516 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
700.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 103.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
213.36 m / 213.36 m x 31.39 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3 mounts), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1924 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised guns - superfiring
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (10x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1924 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 18,660 lbs / 8,464 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 429.00 ft / 130.76 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 429.00 ft / 130.76 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 88,943 shp / 66,351 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,019 tons
Complement:
1,213 - 1,577
Cost:
£9.667 million / $38.668 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,985 tons, 6.1 %
Armour: 11,392 tons, 34.9 %
- Belts: 4,060 tons, 12.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,389 tons, 4.3 %
- Armament: 2,207 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 3,647 tons, 11.2 %
- Conning Tower: 88 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,930 tons, 9.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,393 tons, 41.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,619 tons, 8.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,735 lbs / 17,570 Kg = 28.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.08 ft / 5.21 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.6 %
Waterplane Area: 49,286 Square feet or 4,579 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 997 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
So I hear you wanted a 35kt Battlecruiser Hunter. :D
QuoteProject JL20-A, *cough*Orange*cough* Battlecruiser Hunter laid down 1921
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 36,784 t standard; 38,425 t normal; 39,738 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.00 ft / 720.00 ft x 102.00 ft x 34.00 ft (normal load)
219.46 m / 219.46 m x 31.09 m x 10.36 m
Armament:
12 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 25,876 lbs / 11,737 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 70
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 554.00 ft / 168.86 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 554.00 ft / 168.86 m 37.00 ft / 11.28 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 111,904 shp / 83,480 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,954 tons
Complement:
1,371 - 1,783
Cost:
£11.407 million / $45.630 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,235 tons, 8.4 %
Armour: 10,838 tons, 28.2 %
- Belts: 4,151 tons, 10.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,517 tons, 3.9 %
- Armament: 2,257 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,814 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 98 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,853 tons, 10.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,751 tons, 43.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,425 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 323 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36,520 lbs / 16,565 Kg = 17.8 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 19.91 ft / 6.07 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.0 %
Waterplane Area: 50,709 Square feet or 4,711 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 234 lbs/sq ft or 1,141 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Or the ugly sister, all-forward, ala Nelson:
QuoteProject JL20-B, *cough*Orange*cough* Battlecruiser Hunter laid down 1921
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 36,784 t standard; 38,425 t normal; 39,738 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.00 ft / 720.00 ft x 102.00 ft x 34.00 ft (normal load)
219.46 m / 219.46 m x 31.09 m x 10.36 m
Armament:
12 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 25,876 lbs / 11,737 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 70
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 556.00 ft / 169.47 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 119 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 556.00 ft / 169.47 m 36.00 ft / 10.97 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 111,904 shp / 83,480 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,954 tons
Complement:
1,371 - 1,783
Cost:
£11.407 million / $45.630 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,235 tons, 8.4 %
Armour: 11,053 tons, 28.8 %
- Belts: 4,163 tons, 10.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,481 tons, 3.9 %
- Armament: 2,496 tons, 6.5 %
- Armour Deck: 2,814 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 98 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,853 tons, 10.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,543 tons, 43.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,425 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 316 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,857 lbs / 16,264 Kg = 17.5 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.88
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 19.32 ft / 5.89 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.9 %
Waterplane Area: 50,709 Square feet or 4,711 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 232 lbs/sq ft or 1,133 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
On the 1st one I'd hate to be in that when some BCs 14-16" round smashes through that 9" barbette and GTs the ship.
It's a glass cannon, sure, I like glass cannons. But being a 35kt ship forced a lot of compromises. But that firepower is so tasty!
Tweaking JL20-A a tad yields JL20-C, which has shorter range and less misc weight in exchange for an extra inch of turret face, side, and barbette.
QuoteProject JL20-C, *cough*Orange*cough* Battlecruiser Hunter laid down 1921
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 36,628 t standard; 37,895 t normal; 38,909 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 104.00 ft x 34.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 31.70 m x 10.36 m
Armament:
12 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 25,876 lbs / 11,737 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 60
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 554.00 ft / 168.86 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 554.00 ft / 168.86 m 36.00 ft / 10.97 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1.77" / 45 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 110,334 shp / 82,309 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,281 tons
Complement:
1,357 - 1,765
Cost:
£11.388 million / $45.552 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,235 tons, 8.5 %
Armour: 10,745 tons, 28.4 %
- Belts: 3,875 tons, 10.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,476 tons, 3.9 %
- Armament: 2,497 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,825 tons, 7.5 %
- Conning Tower: 73 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,799 tons, 10.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,945 tons, 44.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,895 tons, 7.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 275 tons, 0.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,601 lbs / 16,148 Kg = 17.4 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.85
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 19.67 ft / 5.99 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.4 %
Waterplane Area: 50,898 Square feet or 4,729 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 237 lbs/sq ft or 1,159 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.47
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Each year from 1922 on adds ~0.02 composite strength and lowers machinery space by ~4 ft. Mount&Hoist saves 0.07 composite over Turret on barbettes.
QuoteA22, <Blank> Light Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,265 t standard; 6,680 t normal; 7,012 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
500.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 51.00 ft x 18.00 ft (normal load)
152.40 m / 152.40 m x 15.54 m x 5.49 m
Armament:
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (2x4 guns), 2.05lbs / 0.93kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,312 lbs / 595 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
8 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 365.50 ft / 111.40 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 1.50" / 38 mm 134.50 ft / 41.00 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 112 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 54,723 shp / 40,824 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 746 tons
Complement:
369 - 480
Cost:
£1.657 million / $6.629 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 164 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 1,093 tons, 16.4 %
- Belts: 524 tons, 7.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 229 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 317 tons, 4.7 %
- Conning Tower: 23 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,856 tons, 27.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,719 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 680 tons, 10.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 168 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,467 lbs / 2,933 Kg = 59.9 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.509
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.4 %
Waterplane Area: 17,136 Square feet or 1,592 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 448 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.72
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
On the Cruiser - I think 6 x twin 6" centreline turrets on 500' might be bit tight - what turret layout proposed?
On the BC - how about less firepower - 8 or 9 x 16" and more speed + bunkerage ?? - current range looks short for high speed operations ...
More speed is simply too expensive. The jump from 28-29 kts costs 0.05 composite strength. And it really isn't worth it IMO to gain one extra knot.
Main Belt is inclined 20 degrees, LOS Thickness is 12.77" or 324.5 cm, and Effective Height is 16.9 ft or 5.16 m.
If added with 1915 Krupp +10% Tech, Effective LOS Thickness becomes 14.05" or 357 cm.
QuoteProject JL20-F, ??? Battlecruiser Hunter laid down 1921
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 37,691 t standard; 39,976 t normal; 41,804 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 105.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 32.00 m x 10.06 m
Armament:
8 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x4 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (10x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18,550 lbs / 8,414 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 251.00 ft / 76.50 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 38.00 ft / 11.58 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.50" / 38 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 116,181 shp / 86,671 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,112 tons
Complement:
1,413 - 1,837
Cost:
£9.502 million / $38.007 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,319 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 13,077 tons, 32.7 %
- Belts: 4,728 tons, 11.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,322 tons, 3.3 %
- Armament: 1,993 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 4,933 tons, 12.3 %
- Conning Tower: 101 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 4,001 tons, 10.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,286 tons, 38.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,976 tons, 12.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 318 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44,543 lbs / 20,204 Kg = 21.7 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 7.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.560
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.87 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.94 ft / 5.77 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.7 %
Waterplane Area: 53,334 Square feet or 4,955 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1,023 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.38
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Belt is inclined 20 degrees, actual belt height is 10 ft. LOS is 6.39" or 161.76mm.
QuoteCL21, Logi's Light Cruiser laid down 1921
Displacement:
11,000 t light; 11,594 t standard; 12,394 t normal; 13,034 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 67.00 ft x 22.50 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 170.00 m x 20.42 m x 6.86 m
Armament:
9 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (3x3 guns), 421.80lbs / 191.32kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,083 lbs / 1,852 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 379.00 ft / 115.52 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 178.74 ft / 54.48 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 78,658 shp / 58,679 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,440 tons
Complement:
586 - 763
Cost:
£3.036 million / $12.146 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 510 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 2,443 tons, 19.7 %
- Belts: 1,157 tons, 9.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 538 tons, 4.3 %
- Armour Deck: 701 tons, 5.7 %
- Conning Tower: 46 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,709 tons, 21.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,156 tons, 41.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,394 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 182 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,857 lbs / 5,832 Kg = 30.5 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.516
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.43 ft / 6.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.6 %
Waterplane Area: 25,264 Square feet or 2,347 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 636 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Or perhaps...
Belt is inclined at 20 degrees, actual belt height is 10 ft, LOS thickness is 7.44" or 189.4 mm.
QuoteCA22, Logi's Armoured Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
12,000 t light; 12,510 t standard; 13,337 t normal; 13,998 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 71.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 170.00 m x 21.64 m x 7.01 m
Armament:
6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1922 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,305 lbs / 1,953 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 365.00 ft / 111.25 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 192.74 ft / 58.75 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 82,918 shp / 61,856 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,488 tons
Complement:
619 - 806
Cost:
£3.452 million / $13.809 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 538 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 2,911 tons, 21.8 %
- Belts: 1,384 tons, 10.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 738 tons, 5.5 %
- Armour Deck: 741 tons, 5.6 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,813 tons, 21.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,556 tons, 41.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,337 tons, 10.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 183 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,956 lbs / 6,784 Kg = 22.3 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 20.94 ft / 6.38 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.6 %
Waterplane Area: 26,688 Square feet or 2,479 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 659 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.76
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Fleet-in-being....
Belt is inclined at 20 degrees, actual belt height is 10 ft, LOS thickness is 10.64" or 270.3 mm.
QuotePBB22, Logi's Pocket Battleship laid down 1922
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,428 t standard; 8,764 t normal; 9,033 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 65.60 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
120.00 m / 120.00 m x 19.99 m x 6.40 m
Armament:
6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1922 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,447 lbs / 2,017 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 255.00 ft / 77.72 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 138.70 ft / 42.28 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18,577 shp / 13,858 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 605 tons
Complement:
452 - 588
Cost:
£2.278 million / $9.110 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 556 tons, 6.3 %
Armour: 3,208 tons, 36.6 %
- Belts: 1,412 tons, 16.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 744 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,015 tons, 11.6 %
- Conning Tower: 37 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 630 tons, 7.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,431 tons, 39.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 764 tons, 8.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 175 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,465 lbs / 5,200 Kg = 17.1 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.566
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 14.51 ft / 4.42 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.0 %
Waterplane Area: 18,289 Square feet or 1,699 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 643 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.09
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
NEDS?
QuotePBB22, Logi's Pocket Battleship laid down 1922
Displacement:
9,000 t light; 9,688 t standard; 10,055 t normal; 10,349 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 75.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
120.00 m / 120.00 m x 22.86 m x 6.71 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1922 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,660 lbs / 3,928 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 255.00 ft / 77.72 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 138.70 ft / 42.28 m 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.80" / 198 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 2,572 shp / 1,919 Kw = 12.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 661 tons
Complement:
501 - 652
Cost:
£3.372 million / $13.489 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,082 tons, 10.8 %
Armour: 3,103 tons, 30.9 %
- Belts: 1,131 tons, 11.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 797 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,135 tons, 11.3 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 87 tons, 0.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,561 tons, 45.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,055 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 166 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,911 lbs / 4,496 Kg = 7.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.542
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 27 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.76 ft / 3.28 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75.6 %
Waterplane Area: 20,448 Square feet or 1,900 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 836 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.87
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
12kts is realy a short speed...
If 14" "PBB" (really more of a CBB) gets any faster, it must be longer and thus can no longer fit into a 120m dock.
QuoteProject JL20-G, ??? Frigate Hunter laid down 1922
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 37,301 t standard; 39,764 t normal; 41,734 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
820.21 ft / 820.21 ft x 98.43 ft x 31.50 ft (normal load)
250.00 m / 250.00 m x 30.00 m x 9.60 m
Armament:
8 - 15.75" / 400 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,952.76lbs / 885.76kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (10x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 17,705 lbs / 8,031 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 564.30 ft / 172.00 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 255.91 ft / 78.00 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 564.30 ft / 172.00 m 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 141,385 shp / 105,473 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,433 tons
Complement:
1,407 - 1,830
Cost:
£10.242 million / $40.969 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,213 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 11,797 tons, 29.7 %
- Belts: 4,408 tons, 11.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,348 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 1,848 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 4,093 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 99 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,796 tons, 12.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,822 tons, 39.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,764 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 372 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42,890 lbs / 19,455 Kg = 22.0 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.547
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.64 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 18.53 ft / 5.65 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.7 %
Waterplane Area: 56,201 Square feet or 5,221 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 990 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.03
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Looks good - but i think tweak up MB by 20-30 mm - looking bit too thin right now ....
It's sloped 20 degrees, wouldn't the effective thickness be enough?
For reference, it's LOS thickness is 319.25mm or 12.56".
MB sloped 20 degrees, LOS thickness is 12.77". Improved KC armor, effective thickness = 14.05"
Using the 1% rule of the Richmond Naval Treaty.
QuoteFBB22, Fast Battleship laid down 1922
Displacement:
35,460 t light; 37,343 t standard; 42,208 t normal; 46,100 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
800.00 ft / 800.00 ft x 104.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
243.84 m / 243.84 m x 31.70 m x 9.75 m
Armament:
9 - 15.50" / 394 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,951.00lbs / 884.96kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (10x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18,484 lbs / 8,384 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 456.00 ft / 138.99 m 17.02 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 344.00 ft / 104.85 m 17.02 ft / 5.19 m
Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 456.00 ft / 138.99 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 114,529 shp / 85,439 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 24,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 8,757 tons
Complement:
1,472 - 1,914
Cost:
£9.932 million / $39.727 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,210 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 12,470 tons, 29.5 %
- Belts: 4,741 tons, 11.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 886 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 2,423 tons, 5.7 %
- Armour Deck: 4,316 tons, 10.2 %
- Conning Tower: 104 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,885 tons, 9.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,488 tons, 39.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,748 tons, 16.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 407 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57,827 lbs / 26,230 Kg = 31.1 x 15.5 " / 394 mm shells or 8.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.555
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.69 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 21.60 ft / 6.58 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.9 %
Waterplane Area: 58,330 Square feet or 5,419 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 202 lbs/sq ft or 988 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.17
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
How's this Nobody?
MB sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 14' (apologizes, I can't work well in metric so I can't tell the protection heights in metric), LOS thickness is 324.57mm.
If it were possible I would simulate this as a 14" main belt slimming to 10" belt at the bottom, but I fear the stability etc. readings would be off.
QuoteProject JL20-H, Orange BB laid down 1920
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 36,668 t standard; 38,332 t normal; 39,663 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 108.27 ft x 31.17 ft (normal load)
220.00 m / 220.00 m x 33.00 m x 9.50 m
Armament:
12 - 15.98" / 406 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,116.44lbs / 960.00kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 105.82lbs / 48.00kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 26,775 lbs / 12,145 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 60
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 469.16 ft / 143.00 m 14.90 ft / 4.54 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 252.62 ft / 77.00 m 14.90 ft / 4.54 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 469.16 ft / 143.00 m 36.09 ft / 11.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 400 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 14.0" / 355 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.13" / 105 mm, Conning tower: 2.99" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 62,616 shp / 46,712 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,996 tons
Complement:
1,369 - 1,780
Cost:
£10.050 million / $40.199 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,238 tons, 8.4 %
Armour: 12,376 tons, 32.3 %
- Belts: 3,918 tons, 10.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,233 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 2,977 tons, 7.8 %
- Armour Deck: 4,174 tons, 10.9 %
- Conning Tower: 73 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,189 tons, 5.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,874 tons, 44.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,332 tons, 8.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 322 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40,769 lbs / 18,493 Kg = 20.0 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 6.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.551
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.51 ft / 5.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.3 %
Waterplane Area: 54,580 Square feet or 5,071 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 237 lbs/sq ft or 1,156 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.16
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
MB sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 16', LOS thickness is 11.7".
Bow is armored and strengthened by the 2" end belt but the stern is not armored.
Immunity against own guns from approximately 8500 yds to 25,340 yds
Immunity against CSA 13.5" guns from approximately 13,000 yds to 22,700 yds
This is a design study for a ~20 kton "heavy cruiser" with a decent speed, good protection, but somewhat light guns. The role would be as flexibility for usage as a battlecruiser, cruiser killer (if it can catch one), and a battle-line substitute whilst keeping tonnage low.
How do you think this design would fare?
QuoteProject 22CA - T20, Paper Study Heavy Cruiser laid down 1921
Displacement:
23,000 t light; 23,840 t standard; 25,076 t normal; 26,065 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
620.00 ft / 620.00 ft x 91.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
188.98 m / 188.98 m x 27.74 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 7,477 lbs / 3,392 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 405.00 ft / 123.44 m 17.02 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 124.00 ft / 37.80 m 17.02 ft / 5.19 m
91.00 ft / 27.74 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 405.00 ft / 123.44 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 90,620 shp / 67,603 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,226 tons
Complement:
996 - 1,295
Cost:
£5.160 million / $20.638 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 935 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 9,533 tons, 38.0 %
- Belts: 3,429 tons, 13.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,049 tons, 4.2 %
- Armament: 2,152 tons, 8.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,829 tons, 11.3 %
- Conning Tower: 74 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,121 tons, 12.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,001 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,076 tons, 8.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 411 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,761 lbs / 15,767 Kg = 40.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.519
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.5 %
Waterplane Area: 38,236 Square feet or 3,552 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 790 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
It's a good design, I would just be very careful around anything packing a 14 inch gun or larger. Not sure how many ships pack such guns in game, but historically this design would be limited to hunting down early battlecruisers and heavy cruisers. Personally, I wouldn't make anything that isn't a super-dreadnought or super-battlecruiser once the 14 inch gun is invented, especially with what are essentially super-super-battleships and battlecruisers coming out with the 16 and 18 inch guns. Going up against a super dreadnought would be dangerous enough, but something armed with 16 or 18 inch guns would surely be fatal for this ship, and I am not sure it would have enough speed to be able to run away from such ships every time.
It's armored as well as a 14-18" battleship nearly, that's why I mention it can be used to substitute in a battle line. But it lacks the firepower of a real battleship. Adding 14" or 16" guns would require a much larger ship, hence my choose to stay with the 12".
As I wrote with the immunity zone, even against the heavy CSA 13.5" it has a very large IZ. The CSA 13.5" weights more than the standard 14" and has better penetration at longer ranges.
By comparison, the same ship with 13.5" Heavy guns. Question is if the extra 5000 total tonnage is worth it.
QuoteProject 22CA - T20, Paper Study Battlecruiser laid down 1921
Displacement:
27,000 t light; 28,155 t standard; 29,535 t normal; 30,639 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 95.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
198.12 m / 198.12 m x 28.96 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 12,565 lbs / 5,699 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 422.00 ft / 128.63 m 17.02 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 130.00 ft / 39.62 m 17.02 ft / 5.19 m
98.00 ft / 29.87 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 422.00 ft / 128.63 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 100,218 shp / 74,763 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,484 tons
Complement:
1,126 - 1,464
Cost:
£6.417 million / $25.667 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,301 tons, 4.4 %
Armour: 10,503 tons, 35.6 %
- Belts: 3,587 tons, 12.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,093 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 2,528 tons, 8.6 %
- Armour Deck: 3,213 tons, 10.9 %
- Conning Tower: 82 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,451 tons, 11.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,364 tons, 38.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,535 tons, 8.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 381 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
39,579 lbs / 17,953 Kg = 32.2 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 6.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.558
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.84 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.16 ft / 6.45 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.5 %
Waterplane Area: 43,420 Square feet or 4,034 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 897 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Armed with a mythical 5"/77 gun with a 87.5lb superheavy shell, this is a 5-incher that can take on battleship decks and cruiser belts. It keeps the higher RoF of a 5-incher whilst being a better gun than a typical 6-incher. (It should penetrate ~6" belt at 8000 yds and ~7.5" deck at max range of ~34,000 yds)
A 5"/77 would weight about 18t more than a 5"/45. I'm assuming the standard in Springsharp is a 45 cal gun so I've included the additional weight of the guns in the Misc Weight.
Btw:
| | KK1921b | Taranto | Leipzig | U1922A |
| Main Battery | 8x150 | 8x140 | 8x150(x2) | 12x127 | Adv Leipzig (L-K-T-U) |
| Secondary | 4x88 | none | 8x105 | none | Adv Leipzig (L-K-T/U) |
| Tertirary | 2x37 | none | 2x37 | none | Tie KK1921b-Leipzig (K/L-T/U) |
| Speed | 31 | 32 | 28 | 30 | Adv Taranto (T-K-U-L) |
| Main Belt | 75 | 57 | 75 | 81.1 | Adv U1922A (U-K/L-T) |
| Belt Length | 120.25 | 130.69 | 110 | 106.68 | Adv Taranto (T-K-L-U) |
| Belt Height | 3.5 | 4.54 | 3.0 | 4.88 | Adv U1922A (U-T-K-L) |
| Deck | 25 | 38 | 30 | 25 | Adv Taranto (T-L-K/U) |
| Range | 10,000@15 | 9,000@14 | 5,000@12.5 | 8,000@14 | Adv KK1921b (K-T-U-L) |
| Ammo Load | 250 | 200 | 154 | 250 | Tie KK1921b-U1922A (K/U-T-L) |
| CT armor | 100 | 76 | 50 | 102 | Adv U1922A (U-K-T-L) |
| Mines | 70 | 100 | 0 | 0 | Adv Taranto (T-K-L/U) |
| Stability | 1.21 | 1.17 | 1.22 | 1.12 | Adv Leipzig (L-K-T-U) |
| Steadiness | 70 | 70 | 70 | 70 | Wash (K/T/L/U) |
| Seakeeping | 1.11 | 1.06 | 1.04 | 1.21 | Adv U1922A (U-K-T-L) |
| Survivability Shell | 3,852 | 3,313 | 3,973 | 4,416 | Adv U1922A (U-L-K-T) |
| Survivability Torp | 1.3 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 1.4 | Adv U1922A (U-K-T-L) |
| Total | 40 | 32 | 25 | 44 | Adv U1922A ( U-K-T-L) |
Scoring 3 pt for 1st, 2 pt for 2nd, 1 pt for 3rd, and 0 pt for last place.
QuoteU1922A, Unknown Light Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
6,700 t light; 7,003 t standard; 7,831 t normal; 8,494 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
540.00 ft / 540.00 ft x 55.00 ft x 18.30 ft (normal load)
164.59 m / 164.59 m x 16.76 m x 5.58 m
Armament:
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 87.50lbs / 39.69kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,050 lbs / 476 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
8 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, Belt Height = 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 58,340 shp / 43,522 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,491 tons
Complement:
416 - 541
Cost:
£1.610 million / $6.440 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 94 tons, 1.2 %
Armour: 1,314 tons, 16.8 %
- Belts: 746 tons, 9.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 167 tons, 2.1 %
- Armour Deck: 368 tons, 4.7 %
- Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,979 tons, 25.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,919 tons, 37.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,131 tons, 14.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 394 tons, 5.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,735 lbs / 4,416 Kg = 155.8 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.504
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.82 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 18.83 ft / 5.74 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.6 %
Waterplane Area: 19,866 Square feet or 1,846 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 440 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Interesting design. Not sure on the "Super 5" though. I see you went turret and barbette so you could get power loading/ramming, but someone still has to lump those 87+lbs shells onto the hoist from the magazine. Not inhuman, I know, but they're still heavy.
Also, Leipzig only has 12x150, 4 singles and 8 casemates. Still only 8 on a broadside.
The "Super 5" is based on the 5.5cm/77 Gerat 58 of the KM during WW2. The longer barrel means better belt penetration at short distance and ranges that compete with battleship ranges. The superheavy just has much better performance vs belt and deck at any distance.
You are correct about the 87+lb shells being heavy, but I figure with power loading/ramming it's going to have a decent RoF compared to a normal 5-incher and even better vs a 6-incher.
On the Leipzig's broadside, you are correct on that as well. But I gave it the better hand out of theorical values. But if it were discounted then it would be:
Tie KK1921b-Leipzig (K/L-T-U)
Which would change the scores to be 41-33-25-44.
If I used broadside weight (amount you can bring to bear on one side) then the it would be:
Adv U1922A (U-K/L-T)
Which would further change the scores to be 43-34-27-47.
Have you figured in gun armor?
Not at all, but glancing at it should lead to this:
Counting the Gun Armor:
Adv Taranto (T-K-U-L)
Which should change the score further to 45-37-27-48
The all the gun armor scores are the same with Taranto leading the pack, the KK1921b following closely, the U1922A a spot back, and the Leipzig out of sight in terms of gun protection. I dare say it's nonexistent on the Leipzig.
I should factor in the number of guns as the U1922A can take more guns out of action than other ships (other than the Leipzig but then it has to turn and it has less armor overall).
How much can I shrink a battleship whilst keeping good armor, speed, and firepower?
This is the sim for the concept. Advantage is that it relatively well armor with large firepower and a semi-high speed. It takes significantly less time to build than a 35 kt monster and sports more firepower per tonnage as well.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Fast "Pocket" Battleship laid down 1923
Displacement:
23,000 t light; 24,245 t standard; 25,495 t normal; 26,495 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
680.00 ft / 680.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
207.26 m / 207.26 m x 26.82 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
Weight of broadside 13,065 lbs / 5,926 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 16 ft.
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 66,384 shp / 49,523 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,250 tons
Complement:
1,008 - 1,311
Cost:
£7.236 million / $28.945 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,633 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 8,603 tons, 33.7 %
- Belts: 3,919 tons, 15.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 799 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 1,506 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,323 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,219 tons, 8.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,241 tons, 40.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,495 tons, 9.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 305 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,656 lbs / 13,452 Kg = 14.5 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.73 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.08 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 16.01 ft / 4.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.5 %
Waterplane Area: 41,852 Square feet or 3,888 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 876 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.09
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Very nice. I actually noticed the same thing myself with the 18 inch gun. I was able to make a 10,000 ton monitor with pretty decent armor (better than a heavy cruiser's) but a 40,000 ton fast battleship was only able to hold six 18 inch guns.
I guess it kind of reflects something that holds true with rockets (and really with any kind of means of cargo transport), which is that in order to make a rocket have a larger payload you have to increase the fuel stores and power, which then ends up making the rocket body larger and more reinforced, which then requires more fuel and power, in a case of diminishing returns.
The three principles of Ship Design....
Speed, Fire Power, Armor...
to gain more of one you have to sacrafice some of the others....
If you want to make is a square and 4 principles you devide speed into
speed and range
Charles
These designs are great, but the ships aren't small enough. We need to go smaller.
How small?
SMALLERQuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Fast Pocket Battleship laid down 1923
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 18,994 t standard; 20,275 t normal; 21,300 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 86.20 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 26.27 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
Weight of broadside 13,065 lbs / 5,926 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.5" / 292 mm 337.00 ft / 102.72 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 12 ft.
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 65,222 shp / 48,655 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,307 tons
Complement:
849 - 1,104
Cost:
£6.711 million / $26.845 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,633 tons, 8.1 %
Armour: 5,213 tons, 25.7 %
- Belts: 2,172 tons, 10.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,263 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,730 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,180 tons, 10.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,649 tons, 42.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,275 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,340 lbs / 9,226 Kg = 9.9 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.546
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.76 ft / 6.02 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.9 %
Waterplane Area: 31,163 Square feet or 2,895 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 190 lbs/sq ft or 929 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.50
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
SMALLER
(Armor has dropped significantly, but the ship can now be built in one year.)
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Pocket Battleship laid down 1923
Displacement:
15,000 t light; 15,934 t standard; 17,305 t normal; 18,402 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
500.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 83.40 ft x 28.50 ft (normal load)
152.40 m / 152.40 m x 25.42 m x 8.69 m
Armament:
6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 13,065 lbs / 5,926 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.6" / 269 mm 324.00 ft / 98.76 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 12 ft.
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.10" / 53 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 42,803 shp / 31,931 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,468 tons
Complement:
753 - 980
Cost:
£6.101 million / $24.403 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,633 tons, 9.4 %
Armour: 3,996 tons, 23.1 %
- Belts: 1,920 tons, 11.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 944 tons, 5.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,089 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 43 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,431 tons, 8.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,640 tons, 44.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,305 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,815 lbs / 7,173 Kg = 7.7 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.510
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.76 ft / 4.80 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111.5 %
Waterplane Area: 28,030 Square feet or 2,604 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 936 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
IMO, test on a 170m hull to increase the speed to 26-27kts
Then, she could be a good fast wing of the 22-24kts battle line.
Reduce the armor if neccessary.
Jef
I don't like the armor at all. High recoil so firing must be done in sequential order. No full salvo broadsides.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
15,000 t light; 15,934 t standard; 17,310 t normal; 18,411 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
513.00 ft / 513.00 ft x 84.00 ft x 27.50 ft (normal load)
156.36 m / 156.36 m x 25.60 m x 8.38 m
Armament:
6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 13,065 lbs / 5,926 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 12 ft.
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 58,419 shp / 43,581 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,476 tons
Complement:
753 - 980
Cost:
£6.313 million / $25.253 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,633 tons, 9.4 %
Armour: 2,966 tons, 17.1 %
- Belts: 1,379 tons, 8.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 739 tons, 4.3 %
- Armour Deck: 805 tons, 4.7 %
- Conning Tower: 43 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,953 tons, 11.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,141 tons, 47.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,310 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 308 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,714 lbs / 6,674 Kg = 7.2 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.90
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.50 ft / 5.64 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 18.67 ft / 5.69 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.6 %
Waterplane Area: 29,008 Square feet or 2,695 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 945 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.50
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Increase the lenght & perhaps the displacement to 16000t
BC is too low
BC is on the level of the a OTL Brookyln class cruiser.
An increase to 16000 ton requires 1.5 years to build, defeating the purpose of the 15000 ton limit.
Increasing length reduces strength in the ship rather than increasing it. The saved freeboard does not offset the lowered BC and required lengthened main belt. I have tested this ship with length changes from 1 ft to 20 ft. None gets better than this without lowering BC.
I tweaked the design a slight amount to get a higher BC, but it costs secondary gun armor.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
15,000 t light; 15,934 t standard; 17,310 t normal; 18,411 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
511.00 ft / 511.00 ft x 83.90 ft x 27.20 ft (normal load)
155.75 m / 155.75 m x 25.57 m x 8.29 m
Armament:
6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 13,065 lbs / 5,926 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 359.00 ft / 109.42 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 12 ft.
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.33" / 8 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 58,786 shp / 43,855 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,478 tons
Complement:
753 - 980
Cost:
£6.318 million / $25.273 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,633 tons, 9.4 %
Armour: 2,963 tons, 17.1 %
- Belts: 1,377 tons, 8.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 736 tons, 4.3 %
- Armour Deck: 807 tons, 4.7 %
- Conning Tower: 43 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,965 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,138 tons, 47.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,310 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,784 lbs / 6,706 Kg = 7.2 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.61 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 18.91 ft / 5.76 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.8 %
Waterplane Area: 29,082 Square feet or 2,702 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 944 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.51
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Hello,
I could not figure out what your shipbuilding times were about. From the rules...
QuoteIf the ship is larger than 500 t light displacement, the minimum building time is: (light displacement / 1000) + 9 months. This figure may be rounded to the nearest month.
So 24 months at 15,000 tons and 25 at 16,000.
I would agree that the BC is too low and add the beam to narrow for triple 16" turrets. SS manipulation at its best.
Reduce the speed to 25.5kts
The low amount of damage that these ships can take is somewhat worrying. If you get hit by even one torpedo your ship is going to be in a very bad situation, at best having a severe list.
@Blooded
Reports are done biannually, as a result the sim advances in 12 month steps. Therefore a ship that is done in 24 months is done in 2 sim halves, but one that is done in 25 months, is in all manners, done in 3 sim halves. Therefore you can use a ship that has 24 month building time in 1 year, but one with 25 month building time only after 1.5 years.
Regarding space for the triple 16" turrets. As the superstructure should be short and there are only two triples, the BC should narrow the beam by only ~ 10ft from the maximum at the point of the turret's placement.
So ~74 ft for the turrets at the beam. The diameter of a 16" triple gun is ~37 ft. Therefore, 37 ft leftover. The slant of the main belt at 20 degrees, yields on a required space of 4.3 ft from the low belt height of 12 ft. So ~28 ft left over, or ~14 ft per side. There is no TDS so there is more than enough space.
Even if the beam at turret placement is only 50 ft, there would still be enough space for the turrets. The problem with turret placement and width results from the width needed by a TDS, which this ship has none of.
@Delta Force
This isn't even on the scale of a real battleship, it's on the scale of a CRUISER. You can also build several of them compared to a conventional battleship. The survivability, if you add it up, is similar to that of a conventional battleship per tonnage.
Added with having to target more ships and it makes up for it. That and if you're worried abut this survivability on a cruiser hull, something is wrong with your fleet. Everything at 15 kton tonnage will start to list badly after a torpedo hit.
At 25.5 kts...
1" thicker main belt, high BC (but higher recoil as well), 2" thicker gun face, 1" thicker gun barbette...
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
15,000 t light; 15,934 t standard; 17,309 t normal; 18,409 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
500.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 83.20 ft x 27.38 ft (normal load)
152.40 m / 152.40 m x 25.36 m x 8.35 m
Armament:
6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 13,065 lbs / 5,926 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 344.50 ft / 105.00 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 12 ft.
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 55,248 shp / 41,215 Kw = 25.50 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,475 tons
Complement:
753 - 980
Cost:
£6.270 million / $25.080 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,633 tons, 9.4 %
Armour: 3,220 tons, 18.6 %
- Belts: 1,520 tons, 8.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 864 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 792 tons, 4.6 %
- Conning Tower: 43 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,847 tons, 10.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,000 tons, 46.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,309 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,172 lbs / 6,882 Kg = 7.4 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.94
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.532
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.01 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 18.99 ft / 5.79 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.2 %
Waterplane Area: 28,544 Square feet or 2,652 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 942 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Lower BC variant, 1" thicker main belt, 0.521 BC (Brooklyn Class level), 2" thicker gun face, 0.5" thicker gun barbette.
Lower recoil.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
15,000 t light; 15,934 t standard; 17,311 t normal; 18,413 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
513.00 ft / 513.00 ft x 84.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
156.36 m / 156.36 m x 25.60 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 13,065 lbs / 5,926 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 351.00 ft / 106.98 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.50" / 140 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 54,264 shp / 40,481 Kw = 25.50 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,479 tons
Complement:
753 - 980
Cost:
£6.257 million / $25.027 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,633 tons, 9.4 %
Armour: 3,203 tons, 18.5 %
- Belts: 1,548 tons, 8.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 800 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 812 tons, 4.7 %
- Conning Tower: 43 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,814 tons, 10.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,050 tons, 46.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,311 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,274 lbs / 6,928 Kg = 7.5 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.521
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 17.91 ft / 5.46 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.3 %
Waterplane Area: 29,264 Square feet or 2,719 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 940 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.34
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Sims are done in 6mo intervals. A 15,000t ship takes 15+9=24 months (2yrs) to build. 4 sim reports total.
Opps! My bad, but my point stands. :-[
For some reason I've been confusing 12 and 24 months for a year recently.
Quote from: Logi on March 19, 2011, 10:50:30 PM
Lower BC variant, 1" thicker main belt, 0.521 BC (Brooklyn Class level), 2" thicker gun face, 0.5" thicker gun barbette.
Ok, I'm not keen on the combination of a small beam and low BC when the historical ships featuring triple 16" had both greater beams- even when deducting for the TDS depth, and higher BCs- which means more beam abreast of the turrets for supporting structure. Not being trained in naval engineering, using analogies like that is the best I can do.
So given the a-historical beam, why is a Brooklyn class cruiser a good guide for the BC needed for a ship featuring triple 16" guns?
Sufficift to say, if 6 16" guns could be shipped on 15,000t w/ decent armor, someone would have done it. I'm pretty sure you need a lot more beam to handle those guns, even if you move them as close to the middle as possible.
NoCar, SoDak, and the Iowa's had 33m beam, hell the Gangut w/ triple 12" guns had a wider beam than your last one. (26.9m vs 25.6m)
That's because:
1) Look at the recoil on the ship.
2) Look at the fact that it has absolutely no TDS, and is very easy to sink via torpedo.
3) It has shit armor.
No nation was as limited in industrial capacity to build a ship that they would lower armor and survivability so far. Any nation IRL that was so limited in industrial capacity for shipbuilding had no use for such ships and likely didn't even have the guns for it. This sort of ship fills a very unique role, it's a minimalist design, not something most nations would even consider building. Germany, for example, liked this sort, but demanded higher speed. Speed forces several thousand more tons (in concordance with more machinery and more armor). The USA and UK could afford to build ships and wouldn't have accepted the low armor (and perhaps not the high recoil either).
Small nations didn't have a fleet that required a battleline at all.
According to beam, it has more than enough to hold the guns. The problem is the high recoil and the fact that it has no TDS. Most ships were designed with more beam because high recoil was unacceptable. There is also the fact that they needed to have a TDS, have a lengthy superstructure which pushes the fore and aft turrets to areas of less beam, etc.
A good TDS accounts for 30 ft or more of beam width. Which is why ships like NoCar, SoDak, and the Iowa (which all have very good and functioning TDS) have much higher beam and BC.
Also, the BC on the Iowa is misleading the beam at the fore turret wasn't what you would expect from a 0.637 BC ship. The beam of the Iowa class at the fore turret is ~60 ft. It's widely known that it fits, just the TDS there is subpar.
Do I need to model the damn ship out in real architecture for you guys to accept there's enough space? Because I can, it just takes a looong time.
Note: Also note the how far the triple are placed in the Gangut. It needs a much high BC to carry the fore and rear turrets. If the ship carried only two triples with the same minimalist superstructure, it could run on a cruiser-like BC.
Edit: Nvm, I not modeling it. I remember why I hate those modeling anything. It always takes days to do, with hours of number-crunching.
I have sometimes found it frustrating when somebody challenges me to 'draw it' to prove it works. That's not a talent of mine, I can cut & paste a little now, but it's still time intensive. In one case it was a ship meant as a sort of armored cruiser as long as Ise with six triple 8" turrets. Despite pointing out a historical battleship that length with six turrets, it was rejected unless I could draw it. I felt I had a good analogy and was disadvantaged by being required to draw it - some could have and persevered, not really so easy for me, and so was not pleased with the discussion.
There is a great deal I don't know about what is possible. As such, I like to look to historical analogies.
However, there is no good analogy here.
Väinämöinen was a cramped arrangement with twin 10" on a beam 9m less.
Sverige was a cramped arrangement with twin 11" on a beam 7m less.
The Ambercrombie class monitors had twin 14" on a beam 1.4m more.
The Roberts class monitors had twin 15" on a beam 0.4m more.
Like your vessel, none of these had TDSs nor massive armor. They would seem to be reasonable analogies for your vessel in construction. However, none of these had triple 16" turrets, the closest are twin turrets of smaller bores.
So, the sticking point becomes how to explain how the enhanced weight of a triple 16" turret with it's greater shocks and barbette diameter is reasonable given the lesser amount of support available in a narrower beam than what we see for smaller lighter less recoil intensive turrets.
QuoteAlso, the BC on the Iowa is misleading the beam at the fore turret wasn't what you would expect from a 0.637 BC ship. The beam of the Iowa class at the fore turret is ~60 ft. It's widely known that it fits, just the TDS there is subpar.
The Iowa could fit a triple 16"/50 firing a superheavy shell with ~60ft of beam at the turret with a TDS, though subpar. I can't see why this ship can't do it when it has more beam at turret and no TDS at all.
Well, when I scale a top-down view of Iowa, get 0.6" athwart #1 turrets and 0.8" amidships. Which makes 81. Deducting the TDS and there may be some merit.
The assessment of Beam - TDS = appropriate min width is reasonable. Both Iowa and Sodak had 17.9' wide TDS or 35.8' each side, giving a beam of only 72.2 feet. Though there are still support structures in this area, so there may be structural aspects that are not apparent.
On the other hand, I have read wing turrets on early dreadnaught produced design problems because they had to have supporting structures, Iowa certainly have the length forward and the beam aft to be transfering loads via internal structure. Your vessel does not.
Further, for all the examples I listed above for possible analogies, the maximum beam is what is listed, not what is directly abreast the turret, and your mounts are not in the center of the vessel and it has a lower BC than the BBs so it ill be proportionately narrower than those vessels.
So.. there is some data to support your position, and there is still some reasons for concern.
Frankly, the disparity between what you propose and the beam choices for the monitors suggests there is some consideration that is being missed- there would no great reason to make them wider than needed since they were to be cheap bombardment platforms. For my 2cents the disparity with historical precedent trumps.
However, I'm just a fellow player discussing this matter.
It sounds like "there oughta be a rule" of min turret size : beam, but I don't know if we want to go there.
I scaled it down via pixels, I got ~60 ft for turret #1. I reckon that's more accurate than a ruler.
The reason why such ships like monitors have wider beam, I have gone through. Such cheap bombardment platform still need ship stability and lower recoil effect.
For comparison, this ship is very close to ends-on-fire only. Monitors typically don't accept such high recoil rates as though the ship is designed to be cheap, it needs a decent margin of stability for accuracy. And you even mentioned another point for the wider beam of monitors. It doesn't have as much space in the ship because the monitors have drastically shorter length. You mentioned transferring loads via internal structure, did you think that's why Monitors needed a wider beam?
The BC is lower than a typical BC, but it is also much closer to the center than a BB. Compare it to an Alaska class, then. It has closer BC to that and if you look at the top-down view of an Alaska class, there is more than enough space for the triple 12"s.
1. Well, it came out pretty squarely on the 0.6 and 0.8 marks, so I'm not sure why we're getting differences. Could be the top-down pic I took off the web was off. Only so much time I want to invest here.
2. True, I've been discounting the recoil argument. The recoil argument presumes SS is accurately modeling recoil for non-standard cases. Considering SS cuts a fair number of cases and seems to best represent standard cases, no, I don't buy that a ship that close to tolerances and beyond historical precedents is "ok".
3. The Alaska with triple 12" on a 92ft beam and no TDS is a bad example. I would presume her beam is more a result of desired speed generating a length and hull form with a desired L:B ratio leading to the beam. A 92ft beam and triple 12s and a low BC used as an analogy for a 84ft beam and triple 16s with a low BC undermines your position. This is one reason I stayed away from using it, just not terribly relevant.
4. It has occurred to me that one of the 'unknown' factors is likely metallurgy. Better steels with greater strength should allow a 1940 designer to do more with less than a 1920 designer. In the case of the USN in particular, the widespread use of expensive STS for common elements could lead to less massive a support structure needed and help explain relatively narrow beams abreast turrets.
5. Sorry Logi, the more I look at this, the more I reach the conclusion that we are unlikely to convince each other. I find substantial doubts. Having been on the other side of such discussions, I realize that's probably going to be a point of frustration for you, as I'm sure you feel you have a good case. Indeed, I have found enough that I understand *why* you have your opinion, just not enough to conclude that you are likely correct.
So, thanks for the talk, I'll bow out.
You are correct that metallurgy could be a factor. Youare probably correct with the beam on the Alaska, but I used the Alaska as an example of what that sort of BC looks like rather than for it's beam.
I've realized a while ago that it would be impossible to convince each other, but it was a nice talk. I did get a bit frustrated at points, but it was enjoyable overall, thanks for the talk.
Ofc if you aren't as anal as I am about building time, for 2 kton ton I can get this;'
For 1kton additional, you can get what I posted before; http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3146.msg68824#msg68824
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 18,127 t standard; 19,629 t normal; 20,830 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
540.00 ft / 540.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
164.59 m / 164.59 m x 27.43 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 13,065 lbs / 5,926 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 12 ft.
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.7" / 297 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.50" / 216 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 63,142 shp / 47,104 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,703 tons
Complement:
828 - 1,077
Cost:
£6.581 million / $26.325 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,633 tons, 8.3 %
Armour: 3,963 tons, 20.2 %
- Belts: 1,766 tons, 9.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,214 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 936 tons, 4.8 %
- Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,110 tons, 10.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,994 tons, 45.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,629 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,563 lbs / 9,327 Kg = 10.0 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.544
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 19.01 ft / 5.79 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.4 %
Waterplane Area: 33,718 Square feet or 3,132 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 941 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.10
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Downgunning, increasing displacement, increasing speed, armor up...
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,026 t standard; 20,568 t normal; 21,802 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
540.00 ft / 540.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
164.59 m / 164.59 m x 27.43 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 10,902 lbs / 4,945 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.6" / 295 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 12 ft.
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 70,311 shp / 52,452 Kw = 26.50 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,776 tons
Complement:
858 - 1,116
Cost:
£6.120 million / $24.479 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,363 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 5,535 tons, 26.9 %
- Belts: 2,277 tons, 11.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,329 tons, 6.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,880 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,350 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,423 tons, 41.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,568 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 329 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,572 lbs / 10,692 Kg = 14.0 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.549
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.16 ft / 5.84 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.9 %
Waterplane Area: 33,873 Square feet or 3,147 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 869 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.07
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
CSA Battlecruiser Test;
Main belt does not have the same height as typical CSA layout, compromised on weight to achieve 27 kton package.
QuoteCSA Battlecruiser Concept Study laid down 1923
Displacement:
27,000 t light; 28,342 t standard; 30,325 t normal; 31,911 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 97.00 ft x 31.20 ft (normal load)
198.12 m / 198.12 m x 29.57 m x 9.51 m
Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (10x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 13,027 lbs / 5,909 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 12.77 ft / 3.89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 12 ft.
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.20" / 81 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 133,847 shp / 99,850 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,569 tons
Complement:
1,148 - 1,493
Cost:
£7.999 million / $31.997 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,403 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 8,751 tons, 28.9 %
- Belts: 2,948 tons, 9.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 874 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 2,286 tons, 7.5 %
- Armour Deck: 2,580 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,473 tons, 14.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,042 tons, 39.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,325 tons, 11.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 330 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36,745 lbs / 16,667 Kg = 21.8 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.70 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Stern: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Average freeboard: 23.51 ft / 7.16 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168.0 %
Waterplane Area: 43,573 Square feet or 4,048 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 189 lbs/sq ft or 923 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.83
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Increase to the the last battleship class of the CSA's size:
It has the same armor as the last BB of the CSA with marginally better belt. It has a better secondary battery, better secondary and main battery armor. Obviously much higher speed.
QuoteCSA Battlecruiser Concept Study laid down 1923
Displacement:
30,500 t light; 31,916 t standard; 34,055 t normal; 35,766 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
676.00 ft / 676.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
206.04 m / 206.04 m x 30.48 m x 9.75 m
Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (10x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,010 lbs / 5,901 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 438.00 ft / 133.50 m 17.02 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 16 ft.
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 438.00 ft / 133.50 m 36.50 ft / 11.13 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.5" / 343 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 142,017 shp / 105,945 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,850 tons
Complement:
1,253 - 1,629
Cost:
£8.462 million / $33.847 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,401 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 11,241 tons, 33.0 %
- Belts: 4,204 tons, 12.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 887 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 2,587 tons, 7.6 %
- Armour Deck: 3,494 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 68 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,747 tons, 13.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,803 tons, 37.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,555 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 308 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
43,253 lbs / 19,619 Kg = 25.6 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 6.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.551
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.76 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.50 ft / 7.47 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.50 ft / 7.16 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Average freeboard: 23.01 ft / 7.01 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.0 %
Waterplane Area: 47,222 Square feet or 4,387 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 188 lbs/sq ft or 919 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.66
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Aren't both of those secondary armaments rather heavy? No battleships of this era, at least in USN service, had more than 16 secondary guns, and didn't have large AA armaments either until their later refits. I don't think that aircraft were much of a danger to a battleship in realistic wartime conditions anyways, at least until the mid 1930s. Billy Mitchell was a visionary, but the aircraft he used in his experiments were too primitive to do much damage to a battleship unless using 2,000 pound bombs.
I agree the AA weaponry is too heavy, but it's what is on the last BB of the CSA. A lot of nations here have ships with absurdly large AA complements, I dislike it, but there's nothing I can do about it. I'm designing to a standard, the CSA's.
The secondary armament, on the other hand, is not too small. Perhaps it is a habit that comes from designing RRC ships, but N-Verse proves the swarm theory to be very very effective. The destroyer/torpedo-boat attack is extremely deadly and has been used over and over in several wars, breaking through thick screens. That's why there is sufficient warrant for very heavy secondary batteries in N-Verse.
Quote from: Logi on March 21, 2011, 08:45:10 PM
The secondary armament, on the other hand, is not too small. Perhaps it is a habit that comes from designing RRC ships, but N-Verse proves the swarm theory to be very very effective. The destroyer/torpedo-boat attack is extremely deadly and has been used over and over in several wars, breaking through thick screens. That's why there is sufficient warrant for very heavy secondary batteries in N-Verse.
But how is 20 4.75's better than 18 5.5's?
Also, one of the last things Carth did before he quit was finish the research on the 4.75" Triple mount. Now, we know from hindsight that this will suck, just like the triple 4.7" on R&R did, but w/o hindsight, it seems a plausible weapon for secondary.
According Guinness' naval artillery page;
The 4.7"/50 is the newer gun (1912 gun tech) between the 4.7"/50 and the 5.5"/50 (1910 gun tech). I opted for the gun with better tech behind it.
Since tbh, the 70lb and the 50lb of the 4.7" and the 5.5" doesn't make a big difference in no. of shots required to sink a rushing dd/tb. I would much prefer the higher RoF and better train/elevation times of a 4.7" mount over the 5.5".
You have to remember, there's a big difference lugging a 50lb shell over a 70lb shell. They both will need 2-3 shots to sink a dd/tb, but the 5.5" exhausts quicker than the 4.7" for relatively no advantage.
Quote from: Logi on March 21, 2011, 08:45:10 PM
I agree the AA weaponry is too heavy, but it's what is on the last BB of the CSA. A lot of nations here have ships with absurdly large AA complements, I dislike it, but there's nothing I can do about it. I'm designing to a standard, the CSA's.
The secondary armament, on the other hand, is not too small. Perhaps it is a habit that comes from designing RRC ships, but N-Verse proves the swarm theory to be very very effective. The destroyer/torpedo-boat attack is extremely deadly and has been used over and over in several wars, breaking through thick screens. That's why there is sufficient warrant for very heavy secondary batteries in N-Verse.
Has there been any good in game reason given for large AA batteries, or have people just been metagaming a bit since they don't add too much to a ship's weight and we know from history that aircraft will pose a grave danger someday? Because no admirals in the 1920s were losing sleep scared that hordes of aircraft would come to destroy their navies.
1919 was the year for the First Air Attacks on Ships....
In The 2nd Rift War Italia Vs. New Zion and New Switzerland Et. Al. The Empire with a long history of trying inovative things with those fragile air machines attempted an attack on the New Swiss Fleet. Rummor has it that Several hits were achieved on New Swiss Cruisers. Some of which were consequently lost in action possibly laimed and unable to run.
In the Chinese Civil War the RRC has repeatidly attacked Merchant and Naval Costal shipping from the air litterally throwing thousands of aircraft into the effort. Lots of planes lost over open water and in bad weather.
And Just a few Days ago in Sim time New Switzerland fighting to defend the home Islands launched a huge airstrike using @500 aircraft operating nearly within sight of their base. Rummors will begin to eventually spread of some rummors of success.
Huge numbers of AAA well that would be hindsight until July 1919 thru the Present.
Charles
The air attacks I've been suffering haven't been crippling, in the larger sense, but they have been inconvenient. You can expect future Maori ships to carry two or three times their current number of AA mounts, and for the standard type of that mount to be upgraded from a single 35mm to twin 50mm. Since I use 'mount with hoist' to keep from storing their ammunition on deck, those mounting points effectively come pre-stressed for carrying heavier loads - my 'upgrade' path is new mount designs mounting more and more guns, rather than adding new mounting points, both because it makes upgrading simpler and because it does the same thing to firing arcs.
The CSA's twin 1" mg mount would be a terrible AA weapon. I think there's a story to that effect around here somewhere. That mount is hand-trained, hand-elevated, and aimed by eye. It also likely doesn't elevate sufficiently.
It *is* a good anti-small boat weapon, which is where it's roots are.
So I don't think the Tennessee's ship too much anti-aircraft weaponry. The only AA gun mounted that would actually be useful is the 2-pounder, of which there are only two, and there is no barrage AA capability at all.
Would it be best to use heavy AA like the 5 inch, or best to use 3 inch or 37mm/40mm light guns? It will be many years before aircraft are able to go faster than 200mph or so, so a heavier weapon would stand a good chance of a one hit kill. When radar guided the 5 inch proved to be very deadly in WW II.
If you combine the USN 5"/38 with the VT Radar Proximity Shell and the USN Mk 37 gun director then Yes from say late 1943 onwards you have a deadly combination of well directed shells that only have to get close. But that is decades and decades in the future.
For now well mostly its individual guns blazing away with what ever they have available. For the Italia I built a Quad 25mm Mount with High Angle capability but at the time it was because It was the Best Anti Airship weapon the Empire of Italia could produce. With Changes to the rules those would probably change and to be honest the mounts are not designed to track something as fast as even a 1916 Torpedo Bomber they would probably shoot down 1 plane per mount but thats pure volume of fire and probably after the plane has dropped its bomb or torp. :'(
Realisticially we are entering the Era where planes are just starting to get dangerous and people have to start designing an Anti-Airplane guns instead of Anti-Airship guns.
Quote from: Delta Force on March 22, 2011, 12:21:53 PM
Would it be best to use heavy AA like the 5 inch, or best to use 3 inch or 37mm/40mm light guns? It will be many years before aircraft are able to go faster than 200mph or so, so a heavier weapon would stand a good chance of a one hit kill. When radar guided the 5 inch proved to be very deadly in WW II.
If you believe in level bombing, you need large caliber ammo to shoot that high.
With flimsy interwar aircrafts, HMGs have adequate stopping power, and put out the largest amount of shells. Good against low-level bombing and strafing aircrafts, but against torpedo bombers mainly a retribution weapon.
IMHO a ~20mm gun is ideal for this era, without shield so it could be aimed by manual power.
Anthing bigger than 25mm and smaller than 75mm will shoot too slow while not having enough sharpnel to be useful. I would say that the Maori enclosed single 35mm mounts might be about the worse AA weapon currently being shipped. And for all of you shipping 40mm cannons, they too are not very useful. The much malinged US 1.1" quads where actually a really good weapon against fabric biplanes.
Quote from: Desertfox on March 23, 2011, 10:32:20 AM
Anthing bigger than 25mm and smaller than 75mm will shoot too slow while not having enough sharpnel to be useful. I would say that the Maori enclosed single 35mm mounts might be about the worse AA weapon currently being shipped. And for all of you shipping 40mm cannons, they too are not very useful. The much malinged US 1.1" quads where actually a really good weapon against fabric biplanes.
But the 1.1" is a 28mm gun. I use the 37mm because it's the smallest in service gun. I will have a 25mm MG soon enough, probably start refitting those in in place of the 37mm. I use 88mm for 'flak' guns.
I'd be very surprised to hear that anyone else had gone for fully powered elevation and training this early, actually. The mount was designed from the ground up as an AA setting, after all, and it'd be entirely predictable that the gunhouse would slow down a manual mechanism unacceptably. Likewise, the 35mm gun used there has its origin as part of a development project aimed at maximized rate of fire. Mechanical reliability might be lower than would be wished, since its mechanisms are prototyped for scalability to larger weapons, but it puts up a lot of shells - and unlike with the treaty-mandated 'solid' rounds of a 1" or smaller piece, one hit will actually have a good chance of finishing the target.
Hmmmm when Im on a real PC I might break this off out of Poor Logi Ship Design Section into its own Discussion.
The Problem with the early aircraft are that any hit to fuel tank, Pilot or Engine is likely to bring the plane down. And any bulled 7mm or .30 Cal or larger is likely to get the same result all the way thru our 1" or even 40mm Guns. But the 1" or 40" guns in this time frame need a solid hit on someting like the Engine or the Fuel tank to activate any fuse it might be carrying. A hit to the fabric of the wing unless it also hits a strut is likely to leave a nice neat hole in the plane without doing significant damage.
The USN 1.1" Quad was a fully powered mount and the fuse was designed to be set off by even the cloth coating of biplanes or light metal of the later ones. But that was much latter then we are currently.
I know Guinness wrote a story about the CSA trying out the training rates of his different guns I forget how it ended but it called for a powered mount for the 1" and the best gun he had was a twin .50 I think.
I found that story:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3404.msg42947#msg42947
The conclusion was that the twin 1" MG wasn't so good. The 2 pounder was ok, but what was needed was a 0.50" MG and 6 and 20 pounder AA guns.
Quote from: ctwaterman on March 24, 2011, 05:00:37 AM
The Problem with the early aircraft are that any hit to fuel tank, Pilot or Engine is likely to bring the plane down. And any bulled 7mm or .30 Cal or larger is likely to get the same result all the way thru our 1" or even 40mm Guns. But the 1" or 40" guns in this time frame need a solid hit on someting like the Engine or the Fuel tank to activate any fuse it might be carrying. A hit to the fabric of the wing unless it also hits a strut is likely to leave a nice neat hole in the plane without doing significant damage.
The advantage the larger autocannons- if they are autocannons- have is longer range. The trade off is a significantly lower rate of fire than the MG and in some cases a lower muzzle velocity.
My Bavarians are trotting out a 90mm gun for Anti-Zeppelin and long range work, and have started a quad 30mm mount. Conceptually, the quad arrangement will ensure enough rounds down range, while hopefully having the range to swat down would-be torpedo bombers before release. The choice of 30mm was mainly influence by not wanting to field yet another 37/40mm gun.
Single AA to deter annoying light bombers will be Becker 20mm Mk11 or 13.2mm MGs.
Real purpose-built CL. Turret arrangement a la Mogami.
Because the guns are in turret&barbette, they should have power loading, power ramming, power train/elev
Thoughts?
QuoteCL22, Light Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
10,000 t light; 10,540 t standard; 11,474 t normal; 12,221 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 67.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 20.42 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (5x4 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 2,214 lbs / 1,004 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.50" / 89 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 88,023 shp / 65,665 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,681 tons
Complement:
553 - 720
Cost:
£2.729 million / $10.915 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 277 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 2,180 tons, 19.0 %
- Belts: 1,140 tons, 9.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 298 tons, 2.6 %
- Armour Deck: 710 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 33 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,986 tons, 26.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,270 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,474 tons, 12.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 287 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,331 lbs / 5,593 Kg = 114.2 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.545
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.73 ft / 6.32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.2 %
Waterplane Area: 25,595 Square feet or 2,378 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 536 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Boy, she's a biggun. I'd probably go w/ singles for the 3" AA for RoF concerns and to provide more coverage. Other than that, scary.
Too short hull for five (even four) big turrets. I'd get rid of the fifth one - it takes up too much valuable deck space (12m or so), and don't leave enough room for the machinery. It also pushes A turret far forward that it would have problem at the narrowing hull.
Otherwise, a valid design, if a navy faces a lot of destroyers without Armored cruiser support.
I figured the 6" gun+turret would take up around 11m of deck space, but that's a trivial difference.
Without a whole floatplane contraption, there should be ~90 ft of superstructure eliminated. That places the Mogami's LWL closer (although I don't know the machinery size). There's also the thing to note that this ship goes a lot slower than the Mogami, which in turn means it needs a lot less machinery. (The SS jump from 31 to 32 kts was worth 0.13 composite strength, for example). The PWOE puts the Mogami class's speed at 34.9 kt (That's 0.58 composite strength here and a difference of 191.66 ft in machinery space).
Also SS states that the magazine & machine space is 383 ft, 314.03 with just machinery. My calculations put the space for guns and working space at 210 ft at most. That would be 137 ft left for superstructure and torpedo tubes (which don't interfere with boilers and turbines) if we went with no guns on forecastle or quarterdeck. The barbettes don't have to be particularly deep either.
The BC is at a healthy 0.545, and with the predicted diameter of a quad 6" turret at 30', there should be enough space?
Perhaps you know something more that I don't? If so, I would appreciate it if you would share it with me.
Considering that HMS Orion managed 5 twin 13.5" turrets on Centerline on 5 less feet of length, I'd guess the turrets fit. Granted she's shorter than the Edinburgh but as pointed out no Aircraft facilities, and she actually has less secondary "spots"s. Also that at 67ft beam she's wider than the Edinburgh Class which originally was to mount Quad 6", and she does have a healthy BC.. not seeing the length issue. Machinery space would be all, and that's a SS issue that's been asked and answered.
While I agree with you Kirk, I feel the need to point out that HMS Orion had a waterline length of 576', 26' longer than this ship.
As for comparing directly to Mogami, she was 110.5' longer, but as you both pointed out, not placing the aircraft facilities probably saves ~90', so only 20.5' longer in use.
With 5T4, increase the hull to the max -170m
Globaly, certainly a possible 1922 built - with internal subdivision study interresting to draw.
IMO, reduce to 4T4 is enough & the cruiser better balanced.
Instal 4 high towers with rangefinders to engage 4 # DDs is also an interresting study drawing.
Jef
Well, Preston's Battleships of WWI is wrong then :)
Let me change my reference point to HMS Erin then :)
Look at the magazine+machinery spaces in your design. 313' is taken by the machinery itself. The turrets, why not extending all the way down, still needs the magazines and support structures below them.
The quad barbette would take up more than 20' space. Smallest barbette ID was 17' for the US triples, for the RN triples it was 23'. I'd assume the RN quad would have fit the latter barbette ID, too. But assume 20' barbette diameter, 4' minimum between barbettes (turret overhang, clearance)
The pyramid turret arrangement of the Brooklyn-class would be more compact, saving ~15' compared to your design, but that's still an extra 110' citadel length. Too far aft/forward (115-120% "hull space by SS2) for a large turret.
Quote from: Logi on March 27, 2011, 12:00:03 AM
I figured the 6" gun+turret would take up around 11m of deck space, but that's a trivial difference.
Without a whole floatplane contraption, there should be ~90 ft of superstructure eliminated. That places the Mogami's LWL closer (although I don't know the machinery size). There's also the thing to note that this ship goes a lot slower than the Mogami, which in turn means it needs a lot less machinery. (The SS jump from 31 to 32 kts was worth 0.13 composite strength, for example). The PWOE puts the Mogami class's speed at 34.9 kt (That's 0.58 composite strength here and a difference of 191.66 ft in machinery space).
Also SS states that the magazine & machine space is 383 ft, 314.03 with just machinery. My calculations put the space for guns and working space at 210 ft at most. That would be 137 ft left for superstructure and torpedo tubes (which don't interfere with boilers and turbines) if we went with no guns on forecastle or quarterdeck. The barbettes don't have to be particularly deep either.
The BC is at a healthy 0.545, and with the predicted diameter of a quad 6" turret at 30', there should be enough space?
Perhaps you know something more that I don't? If so, I would appreciate it if you would share it with me.
See now the lenght of the belt
QuoteArmour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.50" / 89 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
167m for a 167m hull.
If I understand well SS, Magasines+ boilers + turbines + #machineries = the entire lenght of the ship -
:o :o :o
Impossible
-------------------
test 4T4 & 30kts
Jef
Quote from: Jefgte on March 27, 2011, 05:12:15 PM
See now the lenght of the belt
QuoteArmour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.50" / 89 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
167m for a 167m hull.
If I understand well SS, Magasines+ boilers = turbines + #machineries - the entire lenght of the ships -
:o :o :o
Impossible
-------------------
test 4T4 is better & 30kts
Jef
The belt is the total length by choice, not necessity in this case. If you sim it, it only REQUIRES a ~383ft belt.
Yes, I decided to have total coverage over an AoN scheme.
The only element that strikes me is the total hull space = 107%.
We normally ignore this, but the way I tend to interpret it is that not all critical systems fit under a water-line level armor deck.
So, critical things like the feed water unit on Graf Spee can get hit, and still have the armor intact....
However..
This ship has a 2 deck level high armor belt, indicating to me the armor deck can be at it's top, thus providing room for that 7% that sticks above waterline.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on March 27, 2011, 06:39:11 PM
The only element that strikes me is the total hull space = 107%.
We normally ignore this, but the way I tend to interpret it is that not all critical systems fit under a water-line level armor deck.
So, critical things like the feed water unit on Graf Spee can get hit, and still have the armor intact....
However..
This ship has a 2 deck level high armor belt, indicating to me the armor deck can be at it's top, thus providing room for that 7% that sticks above waterline.
If he shortened the forecastle and/or quarterdeck (20% and 15% respectively) this would help. That 100% hull volume is the amount of space inside a box created by the forecastle and quarterdeck settings on the freeboard page as ends, the waterline as the top, the keel as the bottom and the sides of the ship as sides.
More hull depth, beam, block coefficient, ship length, or shorter quarterdeck/forecastle would all effect this positively. And at 7% over, he should be able to make some tweaks and squeeze it in.
I would follow Jef's suggestion of going to the full 557' allowed for a type 2, and probably adjust the forecastle to 15% maybe. If one looks at a picture of Mogami, you can see she has a rather short forecastle (distance from A turret to stem).
My point was that because he had a tall belt, one could reasonably presume that there is additional vertical space for things to fit within.
Humorously, what I thought when I read the Mogami reference was ' shouldn't use Japanese ships for structural reference, wasn't Mogami one of those that had to go back for strengthening?' actually, I can't recall if she was one of them, but they did push their designs.
Why is the entire ship armored, and why are you using quad turrets? Don't those usually have problems with rate of fire? Usually nothing large than a 40mm cannon had more than 3 guns.
Remember the Yupanqui study with 6T2x6" on a 557" hull
Remove one of the aft turret & affect this free space to the quad turrets installations.
Superstructures are not too cramped
(http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/9073/1919cl7500tyupanquiclas.jpg) (http://img856.imageshack.us/i/1919cl7500tyupanquiclas.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Jef
QuoteWhy is the entire ship armored,
Why not? Should not a cruiser/destroyer/TB killer be armored against the shells of it's expected enemies? Even if I sacrifice bow and stern armor for an AoN scheme, that grants me only 5-6" of armor, hardly enough to withstand the next class of weaponry. In addition, a high speed ship should have armor not only over vital areas but also bow and shafts. Last thing you would want is a stray cruiser or destroyer shell opening a hole in the forward bulkhead or dislocating a shaft.
In other words, the tonnage is required to keep the rest of the ship aspects in check and there is nothing a heavier belt will do, so why not a longer belt? There is no inherent disadvantage of total belt coverage.
Quoteand why are you using quad turrets? Don't those usually have problems with rate of fire? Usually nothing large than a 40mm cannon had more than 3 guns.
Not at all, I associate those problems with teething issues, quads typically being a new gun rushed into production. There is no basic engineering problem that quads would suffer from that triples and twins would not suffer from as well. Similarly, there no unsolvable problem a quad would suffer from that a twin or triple would suffer from as well. There is no inherent reason that a quad ought to have a lower RoF than another gun. OTL most quads suffered not from the quads themselves, but from improper crew training, teething issues, (optional) complicated loading mechanisms, etc.
Quad is a simple solution to deck space and protection. More guns in one turret means there needs to be less turrets for the same number of guns and less armor weight for the same protection over the guns. It's a natural solution. That's the same reason the French decided to use quads, similar firepower in less weight.
Think about it this way, if I wanted to mount 20 guns on a cruiser with triples, I would need 7 mounts. For twins I would need ten mounts, how would I possible hope to fit that in 550ft? As Jefgte shows, the Yupanqui study fits 6 mounts, anymore would require a bigger dock.
QuoteNot at all, I associate those problems with teething issues, quads typically being a new gun rushed into production. There is no basic engineering problem that quads would suffer from that triples and twins would not suffer from as well. Similarly, there no unsolvable problem a quad would suffer from that a twin or triple would suffer from as well. There is no inherent reason that a quad ought to have a lower RoF than another gun. OTL most quads suffered not from the quads themselves, but from improper crew training, teething issues, (optional) complicated loading mechanisms, etc.
Quad is a simple solution to deck space and protection. More guns in one turret means there needs to be less turrets for the same number of guns and less armor weight for the same protection over the guns. It's a natural solution. That's the same reason the French decided to use quads, similar firepower in less weight.
I think some of the problems the Quads had was trying to fit 4 guns in the smallest possible turret to try and save space and weight. The result was a crowded gun room and complicated loading gear. The solution to more guns less weight resulted in other problems that had not been addressed before some of these ships KGV class so combat.
Some of Early Twin turrets had these problems as well..
And lastly what you have just done and why I wont build an 8 gun ship with only 2 quad turrets is put barrels of your weapons into 1 armored egg shell. If the turrets is hit and even jammed not destroyed you loose 4 barrels not 2... same problem with the tripples.
Its a balancing act but 4 quads is no more inherently dangerous then 4 twins so go with it.
Charles
The problem is that you cant mount triples or quadruple mounts ,unless you have mastered the:
QuoteLight Cruiser Architecture - Main battery in deck mounts/casemates .
1920: No restriction (high or low) on caliber of turreted guns
the same problem I had regarding the Esc designs as shown below:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=5319.0
There is a greater inherent challange because of the extra shell hoists and fitting crews in, and Edinburgh never mounted Quads apparently because the Brits couldn't get the turret to work acceptably. By time Jean Bart was finished, her Quads worked fine*, and by time of DoY's engagement with Scharnhorst, they worked fairly well, but there was a long teething process. Rate of fire on the quads apparently never got to where they were designed for the Brits, and didn't until post war for the French- again a long teething process.
Quads save weight, so for max gun power, why not. It is more "eggs in one basket", and
They impose greater beam, but with the weight savings you can have more machinery and come out ahead.
Functionally, the only limit I can think of is that if a Quad 6" turret weighs the same as an 8" twin, then it should be expected to train at that rate, which only matters in short range actions like Savo Island. And of course the poor appearance :)
Lastly, I think those using Quads may find some MOD-random design error crop up- we can't expect that all our systems work right because they certainly didn't IRL.
*There is some thought that French shells suffered high dispersion, but I can't recall if that was because the dual twins had each pair mounted close, or because of the shell/MV. Here, SS seems to go with the PoW style 4- across rather than the French Dual Twins anyhow.
I borrowed Jeftge's drawing, and sketched how the quads could be fit the design. Red line is the 314' occupied by the machinery, put the quads (20' barbettes) then copypasted the Yupanqui bow/stern on the ends. I ended up with a 194m hull.
(http://i55.tinypic.com/4ghqvs.png)
I could probably fit it in 167.64m. I'll work on that.
If you want realy 5T4 on a 170m hull...
Reduce the engines spaces by a little slower speed: 30kts
Jef
Reduces machinery space to ~283 ft. Used extra strength for a slightly thicker belt, more misc weight (for more FCS directors), and longer legs.
I could adjust to 70 stability, but requires 70 trim. 70 trim is too high, no?
QuoteCL22, Light Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
10,000 t light; 10,547 t standard; 11,861 t normal; 12,912 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 68.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 20.73 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (5x4 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,214 lbs / 1,004 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 557.00 ft / 169.77 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 78,249 shp / 58,374 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 14,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,365 tons
Complement:
567 - 738
Cost:
£2.602 million / $10.408 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 277 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 2,374 tons, 20.0 %
- Belts: 1,319 tons, 11.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 289 tons, 2.4 %
- Armour Deck: 732 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,654 tons, 22.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,202 tons, 35.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,861 tons, 15.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 493 tons, 4.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,503 lbs / 6,578 Kg = 134.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.548
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.83 ft / 5.74 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.1 %
Waterplane Area: 26,384 Square feet or 2,451 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 108 lbs/sq ft or 528 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.32
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
If the objective is mounting 20 x 6 inch - which is pretty impressive firepower vs. CLs + DDs - then by far the most practical apptoach is 4 x 3 ABXY and 4 x single turrets each side amidships
- it only gives broadside of 16 - but no one can say it doesn't fit/causes big problems - and 10 years on - you need the midships space for good heavy AA
I posted a Heavy Escort Cruiser design allong these lines a while back.
That is a bad idea. Side mountings need additional support from the keel and only cover one arc. Which, is not good at all.
Also, single turrets? What use would those be? If they are in turrets, you just increased the amount of weight in our ship. If they are casemate, you just limited the arcs of fire even more than just having them on the side.
I would find such a design as regressing back rather than a forward movement in design. Not only is the system of mounting archaic but very inefficient. What you run into then is not a length issue, but a NEDS issue.
QuoteHH&LM Modern, Armoured Cruiser laid down 1921
Displacement:
16,000 t light; 16,973 t standard; 17,974 t normal; 18,775 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.00 ft / 555.00 ft x 84.00 ft x 25.10 ft (normal load)
169.16 m / 169.16 m x 25.60 m x 7.65 m
Armament:
10 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3 mounts), 666.00lbs / 302.09kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised guns - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,226 lbs / 3,277 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78,479 shp / 58,545 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,801 tons
Complement:
776 - 1,009
Cost:
£4.318 million / $17.274 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 903 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 4,757 tons, 26.5 %
- Belts: 2,251 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,569 tons, 8.7 %
- Armour Deck: 892 tons, 5.0 %
- Conning Tower: 44 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,702 tons, 15.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,306 tons, 40.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,974 tons, 11.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 332 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,113 lbs / 9,577 Kg = 31.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.538
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.45 ft / 6.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.6 %
Waterplane Area: 32,161 Square feet or 2,988 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 158 lbs/sq ft or 771 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.82
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Misc Weight (332 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
24t 21" Torpedoes
8t Construction Reserve
KGV arrangement, no TDS. Vertical Belt. High Velocity 11"/54 naval gun. Normandie was to fit quad 13.5"s on 27m, this should fit quad 11"s on 25.6m.
Why bother providing barbettes and belts which can withstand 9-10" fire, but a deck only good for 6"? Unless you're expecting short range fights ?
Because the Battle of Shangdong shows the threat of a turret explosion is worth the extra armor. ;D Also, I expect a short range knife duel with this sort of ship.
Something like this then?
QuoteHH&LM Modern, Armoured Cruiser laid down 1921
Displacement:
16,000 t light; 16,973 t standard; 17,974 t normal; 18,775 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.00 ft / 555.00 ft x 84.00 ft x 25.10 ft (normal load)
169.16 m / 169.16 m x 25.60 m x 7.65 m
Armament:
10 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3 mounts), 666.00lbs / 302.09kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised guns - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,226 lbs / 3,277 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.50" / 216 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78,479 shp / 58,545 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,801 tons
Complement:
776 - 1,009
Cost:
£4.318 million / $17.274 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 903 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 4,886 tons, 27.2 %
- Belts: 2,126 tons, 11.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,228 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,487 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 44 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,702 tons, 15.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,168 tons, 39.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,974 tons, 11.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 341 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,990 lbs / 9,521 Kg = 31.5 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.538
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.06 ft / 6.11 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.9 %
Waterplane Area: 32,161 Square feet or 2,988 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 760 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.81
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Misc Weight (341 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
24t 21" Torpedoes
17t Construction Reserve
If development of a Quad 11" mount started in 1922, then the ship would be able to be laid down at the start of 1925.
Ship is intended to fight at close quarters, ~12 kyd. Straddling quickly, and show the enemy is shells. Any ship with armor that defeats the 11" will be fired upon by HE shells.
QuoteHH&LM Modern, Armoured Cruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,127 t standard; 20,157 t normal; 20,981 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 27.43 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
12 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x4 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,552 lbs / 3,879 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.60" / 244 mm 361.00 ft / 110.03 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.62" / 41 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 84,223 shp / 62,830 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,853 tons
Complement:
845 - 1,099
Cost:
£6.253 million / $25.014 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,069 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 5,258 tons, 26.1 %
- Belts: 2,578 tons, 12.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,612 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,021 tons, 5.1 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,735 tons, 13.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,323 tons, 41.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,157 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 615 tons, 3.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,820 lbs / 10,804 Kg = 35.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.521
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.15 ft / 6.45 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.2 %
Waterplane Area: 34,059 Square feet or 3,164 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 833 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Misc Weight (613 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
250t Elevation-Transverse Larger Motors for Individually-Sleeved Guns, Gyro-stabilization for Main Battery Guns
25t Construction Reserve
Deck covers only armored box (361 ft), thus real armor is 2.5" (64mm) over the 361 ft of the protected box.
Main battery consists of three four-gun turrets, capable of individual elevation in order to straddle quickly. In addition, Main battery are gyro-stabilized to make aiming easier.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 16 ft.
- am wondering on trade-off - extra speed (which seems lacking for Cruiser) vs. only 8 x 11" ??
I suppose it's better. Faster for a shave of 0.2" off the main belt.
QuoteHH&LM Modern, Armoured Cruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 18,901 t standard; 19,924 t normal; 20,742 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 86.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 26.21 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x4 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,890 lbs / 2,671 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.40" / 239 mm 361.00 ft / 110.03 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.62" / 41 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 127,813 shp / 95,349 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,841 tons
Complement:
838 - 1,090
Cost:
£5.987 million / $23.948 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 736 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 4,747 tons, 23.8 %
- Belts: 2,516 tons, 12.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,192 tons, 6.0 %
- Armour Deck: 992 tons, 5.0 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,150 tons, 20.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,837 tons, 39.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,924 tons, 9.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 530 tons, 2.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,404 lbs / 10,616 Kg = 35.2 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Stern: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 26.58 ft / 8.10 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 197.0 %
Waterplane Area: 33,093 Square feet or 3,074 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 751 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Misc Weight (530 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
165t Elevation-Transverse Larger Motors for Individually-Sleeved Guns, Gyro-stabilization for Main Battery Guns
25t Construction Reserve
Deck covers only armored box (361 ft), thus real armor is 2.5" (64mm) over the 361 ft of the protected box.
Main battery consists of three four-gun turrets, capable of individual elevation in order to straddle quickly. In addition, Main battery are gyro-stabilized to make aiming easier.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 16 ft.
Quote from: Logi on March 31, 2011, 08:27:23 PM
If development of a Quad 11" mount started in 1922, then the ship would be able to be laid down at the start of 1925.
Ship is intended to fight at close quarters, ~12 kyd. Straddling quickly, and show the enemy is shells. Any ship with armor that defeats the 11" will be fired upon by HE shells.
QuoteHH&LM Modern, Armoured Cruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,127 t standard; 20,157 t normal; 20,981 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 27.43 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
12 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x4 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,552 lbs / 3,879 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.60" / 244 mm 361.00 ft / 110.03 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.62" / 41 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 84,223 shp / 62,830 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,853 tons
Complement:
845 - 1,099
Cost:
£6.253 million / $25.014 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,069 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 5,258 tons, 26.1 %
- Belts: 2,578 tons, 12.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,612 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,021 tons, 5.1 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,735 tons, 13.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,323 tons, 41.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,157 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 615 tons, 3.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,820 lbs / 10,804 Kg = 35.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.521
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.15 ft / 6.45 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.2 %
Waterplane Area: 34,059 Square feet or 3,164 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 833 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Misc Weight (613 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
250t Elevation-Transverse Larger Motors for Individually-Sleeved Guns, Gyro-stabilization for Main Battery Guns
25t Construction Reserve
Deck covers only armored box (361 ft), thus real armor is 2.5" (64mm) over the 361 ft of the protected box.
Main battery consists of three four-gun turrets, capable of individual elevation in order to straddle quickly. In addition, Main battery are gyro-stabilized to make aiming easier.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 16 ft.
Muy interesante.
Shave that weight! Wheeler-weight and speed and armor. Range is shorter. Shorter target though, also fits in a type 2 dock.. Issues may start appearing about whether the quad 11" can fit, but I figure the quads are pushed up towards the center where there is enough beam.
Main is heavier, secondary is more numerous. Is the 1,500 ton shave worth the extra knot and much lower armor?
QuoteHH&LM Modern, Armoured Cruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
16,500 t light; 17,378 t standard; 18,811 t normal; 19,957 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 27.40 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 24.38 m x 8.35 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x4 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,890 lbs / 2,671 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 6.74" / 171 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.10" / 28 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 139,016 shp / 103,706 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,579 tons
Complement:
803 - 1,044
Cost:
£5.982 million / $23.928 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 736 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 3,212 tons, 17.1 %
- Belts: 1,656 tons, 8.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 881 tons, 4.7 %
- Armour Deck: 629 tons, 3.3 %
- Conning Tower: 46 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,514 tons, 24.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,510 tons, 39.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,311 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 529 tons, 2.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,976 lbs / 8,154 Kg = 27.0 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.96 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Stern: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Average freeboard: 27.38 ft / 8.34 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.3 %
Waterplane Area: 30,786 Square feet or 2,860 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 733 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.83
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Misc Weight (529 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
24t Torpedoes
165t Elevation-Transverse Larger Motors for Individually-Sleeved Guns, Gyro-stabilization for Main Battery Guns
15t Construction Reserve
Deck covers only armored box (410 ft), thus real armor is 1.5" (38mm) over the 410 ft of the protected box.
Main battery consists of three four-gun turrets, capable of individual elevation in order to straddle quickly. In addition, Main battery are gyro-stabilized to make aiming easier.
How do you calculate what the deck armor would be if located only in the protected zone? Are we just considering it to be like a rectangle to keep the math simple?
Quote from: Delta Force on April 01, 2011, 08:09:47 PM
How do you calculate what the deck armor would be if located only in the protected zone? Are we just considering it to be like a rectangle to keep the math simple?
SWAG: 1" of armor weighs ~40lbs/sqft
My calculation isn't accurate at all, it's a worst case scenario. Sam's would be more accurate.
As I calculated based on armored length / total length for simplicity, that implies a linear relationship between armored box and total length, which does not take into account the BC. I suppose it would be more accurate to calculate it this way:
Total Deck Area X (Armored Length / Total Length) / 40lb/sqft.
You are right (in that that it won't fit). And 8m freeboard makes the shop a very large target. What about not squeezing the ship into a 170m drydock, and accepting the weight penalty of overfiring twin turrets?
Ship laid down 1925
Displacement:
16,387 t light; 17,263 t standard; 18,736 t normal; 19,914 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
660.00 ft / 660.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
201.17 m / 201.17 m x 22.86 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.22lbs / 15.98kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 5,888 lbs / 2,671 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 446.00 ft / 135.94 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 6.74" / 171 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 1.10" / 28 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 122,789 shp / 91,601 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,651 tons
Complement:
799 - 1,040
Cost:
£5.727 million / $22.907 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 736 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 3,750 tons, 20.0 %
- Belts: 1,793 tons, 9.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,221 tons, 6.5 %
- Armour Deck: 690 tons, 3.7 %
- Conning Tower: 46 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,987 tons, 21.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,614 tons, 40.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,349 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,034 lbs / 9,087 Kg = 30.1 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.530
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (55 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 21.80 ft / 6.64 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.2 %
Waterplane Area: 33,903 Square feet or 3,150 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 712 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Twin turrets are the devil. Also, as this is a design study for the RRC, dock concerns are a valid reason to shrink ships. Designing for the ideal ship given docking capabilities of the nation it's designed for.
QuoteHH&LM Modern, Armoured Cruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
19,000 t light; 19,931 t standard; 21,481 t normal; 22,721 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 86.00 ft x 29.10 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 26.21 m x 8.87 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x4 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,890 lbs / 2,671 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.2" / 259 mm 4.50" / 114 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.05" / 52 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 153,083 shp / 114,200 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,789 tons
Complement:
886 - 1,153
Cost:
£6.477 million / $25.910 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 736 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 4,573 tons, 21.3 %
- Belts: 2,228 tons, 10.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,042 tons, 4.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,253 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Tower: 50 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,970 tons, 23.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,183 tons, 38.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,481 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 537 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,359 lbs / 10,596 Kg = 35.1 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Mid (50 %): 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Stern: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Average freeboard: 28.93 ft / 8.82 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 188.5 %
Waterplane Area: 33,099 Square feet or 3,075 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 752 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 3.02
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Misc Weight (537 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
24t Torpedoes
165t Elevation-Transverse Larger Motors for Individually-Sleeved Guns, Gyro-stabilization for Main Battery Guns
25t Construction Reserve
Deck covers only armored box (380 ft), thus real armor is 3" (76mm) over the 380 ft of the protected box.
Main belt sloped externally 20 degrees, true vertical height of 16 ft.
Main battery consists of three four-gun turrets, capable of individual elevation in order to straddle quickly. In addition, Main battery are gyro-stabilized to make aiming easier.
Interesting.
Individually sleeved guns could probably be assumed by now. The first design generation of triples & quads is in service at this point, and the better range finders / plane spotting would make the individually sleeved more 'standard'.
Gyrostablized.. not sure when that came in, I thought with the USN late 1930s guns.
Conceptually I agree on the deck armor- we need a rule/formula to allow armored boxes. However, that is not the current "reality".
I had some concerns on length & secondary spots, but comparing her to a Cleveland Class CL (longer, aircraft, more turrets, 6x2 5", but similar BC) , I can see where 4x2 10.5cm can "fit".
Well, if you have noticed with some of my designs, I have been toying around with two turret concept for smaller battleships and for battlecruisers, to avoid having to use superfiring turrets. It's an idea that was considered by Austria-Hungary, since they had major limitations on shipyard size and also built battleships that were intended to serve their entire service life on the Adriatic.
Problem with two turret ships is that unless they are four-gun turrets, they won't have enough shells to straddle ships in decent time.
Interesting to note that using a quad instead of twin here actually subtracts from the strength of the ship. Perhaps the barbette hole would be too large.
Large guns on a small hull. Large enough to make everybody wary of it, fast enough to literally escape everything that's bigger and better armed. As for finding the range? It'll be difficult with 4 guns, but not many will be willing to test their luck.
QuoteWhat, Pocket Battleship laid down 1925
Displacement:
18,500 t light; 19,529 t standard; 21,061 t normal; 22,286 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 84.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 25.60 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,166 lbs / 3,250 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.50" / 191 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.50" / 191 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.73" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 150,846 shp / 112,531 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,757 tons
Complement:
873 - 1,136
Cost:
£6.443 million / $25.773 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 757 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 4,159 tons, 19.7 %
- Belts: 2,106 tons, 10.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 967 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,037 tons, 4.9 %
- Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,898 tons, 23.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,338 tons, 39.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,561 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 348 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,048 lbs / 10,001 Kg = 16.1 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.543
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Mid (50 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Stern: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Average freeboard: 28.65 ft / 8.73 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 199.7 %
Waterplane Area: 32,448 Square feet or 3,014 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 158 lbs/sq ft or 773 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 3.14
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Misc Weight (348 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
23t Construction Reserve
Deck covers only armored box (385 ft), thus real armor is 2.5" (64mm) over the 385 ft of the protected box.
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft.
'What' as in WTF ?? ;D
A Glorious with some Armour - if you want Big Guns I think 6 x 320mm would be the practical limit with resonable FC
RRC has no real in-between caliber for 11"-14". The choices are 11"/45, 12"/40, 13"/30, or 14"/45. It was discussed a while ago that four guns was the practical limit for any FC. 4 gun ships would be greatly hampered by the limited gun to find the range, but can do it. 6 guns is passable, and 8 guns is good.
Also the large caliber shells traveling at decent velocity make fighting at range easier on the FCS and the gunner.
It's back. Idea is 5-7" of armor can't protect anything over a 4" plate so why up-armor it in the first place? So belt is 4" sloped, protected against DD/TB/CL fire, but nothing else.
Main battery A-B-Y no superfiring twins
Secondary mounted in this fashion:
_S_S
G_G_G
With G = ground, S = superfiring
Turrets are armored heavily like a battleship, it is "all" part of this extreme AoN scheme. At the very least, this ship won't likely go up in a magazine explosion.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 17,906 t standard; 19,393 t normal; 20,583 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 28.35 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 11,402 lbs / 5,172 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 338.00 ft / 103.02 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 69,513 shp / 51,857 Kw = 26.50 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,677 tons
Complement:
821 - 1,068
Cost:
£6.160 million / $24.639 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,425 tons, 7.3 %
Armour: 4,001 tons, 20.6 %
- Belts: 1,017 tons, 5.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,318 tons, 12.0 %
- Armour Deck: 603 tons, 3.1 %
- Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,323 tons, 12.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,839 tons, 45.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,393 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 411 tons, 2.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,049 lbs / 10,001 Kg = 13.1 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.51 ft / 6.86 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.4 %
Waterplane Area: 33,430 Square feet or 3,106 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 187 lbs/sq ft or 913 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.45
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (338 ft), thus real armor is 1.5" (38mm) over the 338 ft of the protected box.
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft.
Misc Weight (411 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
111t Construction Reserve
Armament layout is to keep stability at 1.09. Everything fits, see Imperatritsa Mariya, etc. Russian ships.
Heavy deck armor in comparison to belt armor because the weight required for a jump from 1.5"-2.5" was much less than weight required to go from 4"-8". There wasn't enough weight to go 4"-8" but there was extra weight available so I went from 1.5" deck to 2.5" deck.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 17,954 t standard; 19,450 t normal; 20,647 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 87.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 26.52 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
10 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4 mounts), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 9,917 lbs / 4,498 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 363.00 ft / 110.64 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.63" / 41 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 89,027 shp / 66,414 Kw = 28.50 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,693 tons
Complement:
823 - 1,070
Cost:
£5.972 million / $23.888 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,240 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 4,097 tons, 21.1 %
- Belts: 1,077 tons, 5.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,948 tons, 10.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,010 tons, 5.2 %
- Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,975 tons, 15.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,287 tons, 42.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,450 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,227 lbs / 9,628 Kg = 24.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.75 ft / 6.93 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.4 %
Waterplane Area: 33,514 Square feet or 3,114 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 169 lbs/sq ft or 827 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.09
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Main battery A-B-X-Y, Twin-Triple -Superstructure- Triple-Twin
Secondary battery G-R-G-R-G per side, superimposed.
Deck covers only armored box (363 ft), thus real armor is 2.5" (64mm) over the 363 ft of the protected box.
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50t Construction Reserve
IMO,
Reduce armament to 4T2x12" + 8M2x5" &... increase the thickness of the belt
Jef
I feel there's nothing spectacular about the ship.
It has average firepower, average speed for a battlecruiser, average armor for a battlecruiser. What would be the point of building it unless you had lots of BP? What could such a ship do that another ship couldn't? I feel in this case, being decent all-around isn't an advantage.
Anything that can't fight it can probably outrun it. Anything that can't outrun it can fight it and win. And with only 8 barrels, that's an average firepower. It doesn't have enough barrels to effectively soft kill another ship, it doesn't have the power to hard kill a ship.
It doesn't even have a powerful secondary, just an average secondary. What can this ship do that another ship can't do better?
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 17,839 t standard; 19,329 t normal; 20,521 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 87.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 26.52 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 7,939 lbs / 3,601 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.86" / 200 mm 363.00 ft / 110.64 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.50" / 191 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.63" / 41 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 88,527 shp / 66,041 Kw = 28.50 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,682 tons
Complement:
819 - 1,065
Cost:
£5.361 million / $21.444 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 992 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 4,736 tons, 24.5 %
- Belts: 2,115 tons, 10.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,552 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,007 tons, 5.2 %
- Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,959 tons, 15.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,913 tons, 40.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,329 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,768 lbs / 10,327 Kg = 26.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.537
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 22.18 ft / 6.76 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 166.8 %
Waterplane Area: 33,408 Square feet or 3,104 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 796 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Secondary battery G-R-G-G per side, superimposed.
Deck covers only armored box (363 ft), thus real armor is 2.5" (64mm) over the 363 ft of the protected box.
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50t Construction Reserve
QuoteI feel there's nothing spectacular about the ship.
It has average firepower, average speed for a battlecruiser, average armor for a battlecruiser. What would be the point of building it unless you had lots of BP? What could such a ship do that another ship couldn't? I feel in this case, being decent all-around isn't an advantage.
Anything that can't fight it can probably outrun it. Anything that can't outrun it can fight it and win. And with only 8 barrels, that's an average firepower. It doesn't have enough barrels to effectively soft kill another ship, it doesn't have the power to hard kill a ship.
It doesn't even have a powerful secondary, just an average secondary. What can this ship do that another ship can't do better?
Your answer is the name of the SS
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923...
Jef ;)
But I can make a better ship with similar specs, smaller on another hull. Maybe I just love excess firepower.
I much prefer the 32 kts HHxLM Modern designs over the Minimalist 8x12". Far more useful for the same tonnage.
Egg Shells Armed with Sledge Hammers....
But Yes Fisher would be proud.... ;)
Quote from: ctwaterman on April 11, 2011, 03:53:03 PM
Egg Shells Armed with Sledge Hammers....
But Yes Fisher would be proud.... ;)
As would the IJN...
QuoteEgg Shells Armed with Sledge Hammers....
Not so true;
With 4" belt inclined 20 degrees, it defends against 9.2" shells to within ~8000 yds (according to NavWep on weapons of this period). It does not, unfortunately, as I checked, defend against 10" and up guns.
Also, the turret is well armored.
Quote from: Logi on April 12, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
QuoteEgg Shells Armed with Sledge Hammers....
Not so true;
With 4" belt inclined 20 degrees, it defends against 9.2" shells to within ~8000 yds (according to NavWep on weapons of this period). It does not, unfortunately, as I checked, defend against 10" and up guns.
Also, the turret is well armored.
This ship would have worked in 1910, but not now. It is too slow to catch destroyers and light cruisers, and lacks the armor and gun range to take on newer dreadnoughts. Also, the current crop of dreadnoughts don't have to sacrifice as much for battlecruiser speed anymore. I have a plan for a new dreadnought with eight 15 inch guns, a speed of 27.5 knots, and battleship level armor (including a much thicker than common deck). Against the new crop of ships, it can't hurt anything and can't even run away.
Quote from: Logi on April 12, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
QuoteEgg Shells Armed with Sledge Hammers....
Not so true;
With 4" belt inclined 20 degrees, it defends against 9.2" shells to within ~8000 yds (according to NavWep on weapons of this period). It does not, unfortunately, as I checked, defend against 10" and up guns.
Also, the turret is well armored.
I don't believe your ship can offer much protection against anything bigger than a 5" to 6" gun. Take the German 20,3 cm gun (Hipper-class), which I think is mediocre, for example:
Armor Penetration (navweaps)
269 lbs. (122 kg) HE Shell Spr. gr. L/4,7
10,389 yards (9,500 m) 2.0" (5 cm) of Homogenous [deck] armor
269 lbs. (122 kg) AP Shell Pz. Spr. Ggr. L/4,4
10,389 yards (9,500 m) 9.4" (24 cm) of Face-hardened [belt] armor
A 9.2"/50 firing a 380lbs round at 10.25* goes to 15,800yds and if DECAPPED (or SAP/Common) will still penetrate 4.01" of 20* sloped armor. So, unless you fight outside 16k you're hurt by cruisers, let alone battleships/battlecruisers. Now, I'm sure it works fine against 6" Light Cruisers, and even against some 8" armed ships firing SAP or Common. HE would be no issue, obviously so nothing to fear from 5" or small guns.
Now, can you outrun a 29kt BC w/ 15" guns and the armor to take some rounds, cuz the Dutch have 2-3 of those and the Norman's are building some, so are the Rohhirm. Now, I know the argument will be, "But they're 35-40k + ships, this is only a 17k ship." and you'd be right. However, what can this 17k ship kill that a similar or smaller ship with 8-10" guns and 30+kts can't? Plus, those 30kts+ ships can run from the 28-29kt BCs, this can't, or barely at best.
QuoteI don't believe your ship can offer much protection against anything bigger than a 5" to 6" gun. Take the German 20,3 cm gun (Hipper-class), which I think is mediocre, for example:
Armor Penetration (navweaps)
269 lbs. (122 kg) HE Shell Spr. gr. L/4,7
10,389 yards (9,500 m) 2.0" (5 cm) of Homogenous [deck] armor
269 lbs. (122 kg) AP Shell Pz. Spr. Ggr. L/4,4
10,389 yards (9,500 m) 9.4" (24 cm) of Face-hardened [belt] armor
And when was the Hipper gun created? Oh right, 1934. With hard caps etc. Navalism is stuck in soft-cap period projectiles.
QuoteA 9.2"/50 firing a 380lbs round at 10.25* goes to 15,800yds and if DECAPPED (or SAP/Common) will still penetrate 4.01" of 20* sloped armor. So, unless you fight outside 16k you're hurt by cruisers, let alone battleships/battlecruisers. Now, I'm sure it works fine against 6" Light Cruisers, and even against some 8" armed ships firing SAP or Common. HE would be no issue, obviously so nothing to fear from 5" or small guns.
QuoteBritain
9.2"/47 (23.4 cm) Mark X
Range Vertical KC Plate
3,000 yards (2,740 m) 9.7 in (24.6 cm)
6,000 yards (5,480 m) 7.7 in (19.6 cm)
9,000 yards (8,230 m) 5.3 in (13.5 cm)
Note: These figures are from "The Grand Fleet: Warship Design and Development 1906-1922" and assume a 90 degree inclination. These trials were conducted with salt-filled (blind) shells and almost certainly overstate the performance of British shells of the early twentieth century.
I would have thought that with this large cavity, which was exactly the same as in World War I, the 9.2" Mark XIIA APC would have had problems with projectile breakup against thick armor at moderate obliquity (circa 1-caliber-thick plate at around 30 degrees obliquity). However, this was not the case. In fact, these projectiles -- both the US and British designs -- are, from the tests I have seen, THE BEST BRITISH APC PROJECTILES EVER MADE!
Granted, old weapon. However, most N-Verse weapons at not 50 caliber. Also I don't know where you are getting that figure Samchle, because running through NAaB I get 11,000 yds for immunity on belt. Not to mention the effective deck is 2.5" so immunity for the deck extends 18,000 yds in.
Against the Russian 14" the deck protection extends from 12,000 yds in. The belt is something we don't need to talk about because the belt was made to withstand cruiser fire, not battleship fire. I even said it.
QuoteIt's back. Idea is 5-7" of armor can't protect anything over a 4" plate so why up-armor it in the first place? So belt is 4" sloped, protected against DD/TB/CL fire, but nothing else.
QuoteNow, can you outrun a 29kt BC w/ 15" guns and the armor to take some rounds, cuz the Dutch have 2-3 of those and the Norman's are building some, so are the Rohhirm. Now, I know the argument will be, "But they're 35-40k + ships, this is only a 17k ship."
Wrong argument. They are minimalist designs, so that is expected.
Attempts to make something run faster than these behemoths going at 30+kt cost too much tonnage and end up with a very under-gunned alternative. What can such a ship bring to the table that a faster ship can't? Firepower. Speed is pointless if you lack the firepower to sink or soft-kill your target. The problem with such high speed ships is that if they encounter even a smaller ship, if designed in the fashion of Valles, etc. it would be useless.
As I had shown before, the alternative to having more small caliber guns for soft-killing was to have a few large guns (see the 2x2 14" Superheavy). The alternative? You see with the HH&LM Modern designs.
Yes, the 12" designs are a tad lack luster, even the 4x3 12" redesign of the same SS is a bit underwhelming. I much prefer the 6x15" design, but that is the trade off of soft-kill vs hard-kill.
QuoteThis ship would have worked in 1910, but not now. It is too slow to catch destroyers and light cruisers, and lacks the armor and gun range to take on newer dreadnoughts. Also, the current crop of dreadnoughts don't have to sacrifice as much for battlecruiser speed anymore. I have a plan for a new dreadnought with eight 15 inch guns, a speed of 27.5 knots, and battleship level armor (including a much thicker than common deck). Against the new crop of ships, it can't hurt anything and can't even run away.
Who said it is to catch cruisers and destroyers? What sane man designs a ship that catches cruisers and destroyer to hold 12" guns? That is overkill to the point of stupidity! The concept studies are labeled minimalist designs. A minimalist cruiser-killer design would at most hold 8" HV or SH guns. There is absolutely no point to a much larger ship to hold treasure guns if that was the point.
It's deck armor will hold decently and it's armor is what it's tonnage allows. The option is either 8" or 4" and 8" holds no advantage over a 4" against BB level shells.
You cited 27.5 kts as the speed. This goes at 28.5 kts. You cited a much thicker than normal deck. First, there is no precedent in N-Verse for a very thick deck. Second, the point of 12"-11" guns was never to penetrate a thick deck. It was the HE the crap out of the superstructure so it's effectively soft-killed.
And if you cite 8x15" as the focal point, I point to the 6x15" design.
Also I think you have all forgotten something. Everyone may be building larger and larger dreadnought but the nations that can do so are few and far in between. Are you proposing that such nations, which make up most of N-Verse, build no line of battle at all? It's unfortunate that SeaKreig gives asymmetrical warfare over-performance because most of what it describes happens in such asymmetrical vs line of battle scenarios are biased in favor of the asymmetrical. Therefore what are smaller nations to do? Not build a navy at all?
The option would be to build the smallest ship possible ship housing the largest possible armament (because let's face it, armor alone doesn't deter away captains, although it makes them a tough nut to crack).Well then, there is the minimalist designs. Even away from BP-constrained there is a good deal of advantage gained from having two smaller but less adequate ships over one large super-ship.
In an engagement the side with two ships will have one firing completely undisturbed aiding greatly their firing. In opposition the one ship has great difficulty, even if it sinks one of the two in retargeting the other ship.
A cruiser might not think much of a 30+kt cruiser housing similar weaponry, a battleship might not think much of it too. But a small ship housing BB-level weaponry, that catches attention and enforces the fleet-in-being.
Now that that is all said and done:
Here's the modification according to what I said.
Very heavy firepower, decent speed, light belt (but good vs cruiser fire), and heavy deck. If I had chosen to use 1.5" deck instead, the belt could only go to 8.2" thick. A 3.5" deck is far more useful in that case.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,003 t standard; 20,509 t normal; 21,714 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 95.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 28.96 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
7 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3 mounts), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 13,090 lbs / 5,937 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 338.00 ft / 103.02 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.28" / 58 mm, Conning tower: 3.60" / 91 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 72,105 shp / 53,791 Kw = 26.50 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,711 tons
Complement:
856 - 1,113
Cost:
£7.632 million / $30.530 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,636 tons, 8.0 %
Armour: 4,464 tons, 21.8 %
- Belts: 1,274 tons, 6.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,696 tons, 8.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,435 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,341 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,208 tons, 44.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,509 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,257 lbs / 10,096 Kg = 13.2 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.538
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.08 ft / 6.73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 166.9 %
Waterplane Area: 34,096 Square feet or 3,168 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 937 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.57
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (338 ft), thus real armor is 3.5" (89mm) over the 338 ft of the protected box.
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft.
Main battery Twin-Triple-Superstructure-Twin : all on deck level, best example for fitting are the Russian battleships
Secondary battery G-R-G-G per side, superimposed.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50t Construction Reserve
Not a bad BC...
Could I suggest to remove 1x 15" gun & increase the speed (& the lenght).
26.5kts is short.
A kind of pocket Renown
3T2x15" - 27.5kts
Jef ;)
Something like this? Although I don't like the idea. Having one extra barrel should greatly improve the accuracy of fire against a 6-gun. It is halfway between 8 barrels and 6 barrels after all.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,060 t standard; 20,580 t normal; 21,796 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 94.00 ft x 25.80 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 28.65 m x 7.86 m
Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 11,402 lbs / 5,172 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 358.00 ft / 109.12 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.3" / 286 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.50" / 191 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.15" / 55 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 87,654 shp / 65,390 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,737 tons
Complement:
858 - 1,116
Cost:
£7.284 million / $29.136 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,425 tons, 6.9 %
Armour: 4,222 tons, 20.5 %
- Belts: 1,340 tons, 6.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,411 tons, 6.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,422 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,846 tons, 13.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,157 tons, 44.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,580 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,945 lbs / 10,861 Kg = 14.2 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Stern: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Average freeboard: 23.08 ft / 7.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 182.5 %
Waterplane Area: 35,745 Square feet or 3,321 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 181 lbs/sq ft or 885 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.34
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (358 ft), thus real armor is 3.5" (89mm) over the 358 ft of the protected box.
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50t Construction Reserve
Quote...Having one extra barrel should greatly improve the accuracy of fire against a 6-gun. It is halfway between 8 barrels and 6 barrels after all.
...just by 16% I think
The punch of the 15" shells is a real superiority vs 16000t - 20000t BCs & all ACs.
??? 28 kts... will they be enough for 1925 ?
Jef
QuoteHuh 28 kts... will they be enough for 1925 ?
I can adjust to 1922, but that will cost 0.5"-1" off the main belt.
I tried going for the extra knot, but either it has paper armor everywhere (as opposed to only the belt now) or there's a 2k tonnage jump.
Seems to be for nations that are money rich but IP poor. The cost of the ship is actually very close to the 35,000 ton fast battleships I have been looking at.
It's a tad too fragile I think, especially seeing as its speed isn't much higher than what can be done with fast battleships. What would this ship look like if you dropped it down to 21 or 23 knots and took the weight savings and added it to armor? I think you could get some good armor on the ship.
I would also give consideration to increasing the size of the ship to the mid 20s to enable a design with more capabilities, either armor or speed.
QuoteThe cost of the ship is actually very close to the 35,000 ton fast battleships I have been looking at.
Cost in N-Verse is calculated via tonnage. We don't use the cost SS generates.
QuoteIt's a tad too fragile I think, especially seeing as its speed isn't much higher than what can be done with fast battleships.
Extra speed costs 2kton per kt. Naturally it will not be a great deal faster than a fast battleship, that would require a 20+ kton ship. Also the point was to reduce armor since armor below 11" sloped is quite pointless against BB level shells.
QuoteI would also give consideration to increasing the size of the ship to the mid 20s to enable a design with more capabilities, either armor or speed.
No. Once you go into the 20s the ship should have a TDS, else it is a liability. Once you add a TDS, it quickly jumps near the 30 kton range. Increasing weight to above 20 kton, therefore, is unacceptable.
Up-armor version
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Pocket Battleship laid down 1923
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,060 t standard; 20,610 t normal; 21,850 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
530.00 ft / 530.00 ft x 94.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
161.54 m / 161.54 m x 28.65 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 11,402 lbs / 5,172 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 358.00 ft / 109.12 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.2" / 361 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.60" / 66 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,294 shp / 36,027 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,790 tons
Complement:
859 - 1,118
Cost:
£5.973 million / $23.892 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,425 tons, 6.9 %
Armour: 6,675 tons, 32.4 %
- Belts: 3,471 tons, 16.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,471 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,686 tons, 8.2 %
- Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,614 tons, 7.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,960 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,610 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,255 lbs / 11,455 Kg = 15.0 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.557
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.02 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.16 ft / 4.93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.2 %
Waterplane Area: 34,994 Square feet or 3,251 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 843 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.69
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (358 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 358 ft of the protected box.
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft.
Misc Weight (325 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
25t Construction Reserve
I prefer up-firepower over up-armor, but that's my quirk.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 19,251 t standard; 20,814 t normal; 22,064 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 94.00 ft x 25.80 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 28.65 m x 7.86 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 14,777 lbs / 6,703 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 358.00 ft / 109.12 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.4" / 366 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.50" / 191 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.60" / 66 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,486 shp / 35,425 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,813 tons
Complement:
866 - 1,126
Cost:
£6.993 million / $27.971 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,847 tons, 8.9 %
Armour: 4,909 tons, 23.6 %
- Belts: 1,341 tons, 6.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,787 tons, 8.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,732 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,587 tons, 7.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,307 tons, 44.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,814 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,666 lbs / 9,828 Kg = 12.8 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.546
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.4 %
Waterplane Area: 35,951 Square feet or 3,340 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 951 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.67
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (358 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 358 ft of the protected box.
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50t Construction Reserve
The last one is realy a PBB.
I like ;)
The second is a kind of slow Courageous & need 28kts mini. 32kts is top.
3T2x15"- 28kts.
Finaly, that is your projects & your choices...
Jef ;)
QuoteThe second is a kind of slow Courageous & need 28kts mini. 32kts is top.
Comparison isn't very valid. The Courageous only had 4 x 15", this has a full battleship armament, 8 x 15". I think ships would be a lot wary of 8x15" than 4x15".
If I set 30 kts as the goal, this is what I could come up with. Granted this is a huge liability as it has no TDS. It's also a bit too large for it's armor.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
24,000 t light; 25,381 t standard; 27,251 t normal; 28,747 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
660.00 ft / 660.00 ft x 94.00 ft x 28.50 ft (normal load)
201.17 m / 201.17 m x 28.65 m x 8.69 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 14,777 lbs / 6,703 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 435.00 ft / 132.59 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.64" / 67 mm, Conning tower: 3.20" / 81 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 123,809 shp / 92,362 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,367 tons
Complement:
1,059 - 1,378
Cost:
£8.643 million / $34.571 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,847 tons, 6.8 %
Armour: 5,735 tons, 21.0 %
- Belts: 1,434 tons, 5.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,148 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,091 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,138 tons, 15.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,930 tons, 43.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,251 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,881 lbs / 12,647 Kg = 16.5 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.84
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.02 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.84 ft / 6.96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.3 %
Waterplane Area: 42,871 Square feet or 3,983 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 942 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (435 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 435 ft of the protected box.
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50t Construction Reserve
QuoteComparison isn't very valid. The Courageous only had 4 x 15", this has a full battleship armament, 8 x 15". I think ships would be a lot wary of 8x15" than 4x15".
What it comes down to is the compromise between Speed, Firepower, and Protection. You have maximized speed and fire power. Your belt armor is well it will keep out Destroyer and cruiser shells but nothing else. Its all a matter of personal choice! But as I said before Admiral Fisher would be proud.
The question is if you are trading Battle Ship caliber shells with another ship your ships vitals have literally no Imune Zone. Even 8" and larger shells can penetrate your belt at typical battle ranges and this means if you exchange several volleys with a slower capital ship and decide you need to run well hope the damage you took wasnt to an Engine or Fire Room otherwise you might not make it.
Basically its a nice ship but your betting on being able to build more of them then the enemy does. Because it cant stand and fight any of its predecessors let alone any of it contemporaires.
Do you know why I opted for such low armor and maximum firepower? Because it is impossible to fit high speed and decent armor on the hull. The choice was either drop into 6-gun, which I find laughable, or drop armor to 8". 8" as useless as 5".
QuoteThe question is if you are trading Battle Ship caliber shells with another ship your ships vitals have literally no Imune Zone.
Quite wrong. That is only if we talk about the Belt. A 4" thick deck at waterline (not the 30 kt one because that's just a smidget above waterline) means practically nothing will get in.
If the engine room and fire room is underwater, how is it very vulnerable?
And that is why this statement is wrong as well:
QuoteBecause it cant stand and fight any of its predecessors let alone any of it contemporaires.
But everyone wants more armor. Again bad protection vs torpedo hits (I tested a 1.5" TDS, would have cost dropping the armor or weight increase of ~2 kton for not all that much survivability against a torpedo).
Main belt and upper-belt reflects a constantly sloping belt that tapers from 5" at the top to 13" at the bottom. All sloped at 20 degrees. Belt is 8ft underwater, 8ft above water. Deck is placed at waterline.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
26,000 t light; 27,423 t standard; 29,377 t normal; 30,940 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
198.12 m / 198.12 m x 30.48 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 14,777 lbs / 6,703 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 422.00 ft / 128.63 m 8.52 ft / 2.60 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 13.0" / 330 mm 422.00 ft / 128.63 m 8.52 ft / 2.60 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.60" / 66 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 115,497 shp / 86,161 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,517 tons
Complement:
1,121 - 1,458
Cost:
£8.733 million / $34.933 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,847 tons, 6.3 %
Armour: 7,625 tons, 26.0 %
- Belts: 2,815 tons, 9.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,578 tons, 8.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,170 tons, 7.4 %
- Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,860 tons, 13.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,286 tons, 41.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,377 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 382 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,041 lbs / 14,987 Kg = 19.6 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.545
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.51 ft / 6.86 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170.6 %
Waterplane Area: 45,170 Square feet or 4,196 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 947 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.69
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (422 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 422 ft of the protected box.
Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft. Tapers from 13" at the top to 5" at the bottom.
Misc Weight (382 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
82t Construction Reserve
I think this works better, although it's still a bit big for my taste.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
23,000 t light; 24,499 t standard; 26,259 t normal; 27,667 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
580.00 ft / 580.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
176.78 m / 176.78 m x 29.26 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3 mounts), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 17,277 lbs / 7,837 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 376.00 ft / 114.60 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 351 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.59" / 66 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 99,166 shp / 73,978 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,167 tons
Complement:
1,030 - 1,340
Cost:
£9.188 million / $36.751 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,847 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 6,111 tons, 23.3 %
- Belts: 1,968 tons, 7.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,222 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,864 tons, 7.1 %
- Conning Tower: 57 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,220 tons, 12.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,472 tons, 43.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,259 tons, 12.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28,659 lbs / 13,000 Kg = 17.0 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.04 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.08 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Stern: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Average freeboard: 23.08 ft / 7.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.3 %
Waterplane Area: 38,866 Square feet or 3,611 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 997 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (376 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 376 ft of the protected box. Deck is at waterline level and all machinery, storage, etc. is under the waterline.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees. Actual belt height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 5" at the top to 9" underwater.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50t Construction Reserve
I noticed that, while most of the Minimalist BC's are 1923 some are 1925. Is this deliberate?
I believe that is when the RRC would have had the tech to start building them.
If you want to engage ACs, BCs & always a minimalist BC,
Instal your T2x14" super heavy
Jef
All forward, none raised. Ship has higher BC than original for that. Beam works, ala Normandie class. I think the previous design is better. The 15" one has 3000tons more for a spot more armor and ~3,000 lb of broadside weight. Granted, the advantage of this over the previous design is that it can fire all forward.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
20,000 t light; 21,277 t standard; 22,904 t normal; 24,206 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 27.43 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 14,477 lbs / 6,567 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 356.00 ft / 108.51 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.54" / 217 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.59" / 66 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 95,672 shp / 71,371 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,929 tons
Complement:
930 - 1,210
Cost:
£7.925 million / $31.699 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,532 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 4,974 tons, 21.7 %
- Belts: 1,869 tons, 8.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,319 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,734 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,106 tons, 13.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,038 tons, 43.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,904 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,698 lbs / 11,656 Kg = 18.7 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.90
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Stern: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Average freeboard: 23.32 ft / 7.11 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170.5 %
Waterplane Area: 36,197 Square feet or 3,363 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 940 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.61
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (356 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 356 ft of the protected box. Deck is at waterline level and all machinery, storage, etc. is under the waterline.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees. Actual belt height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 5" at the top to 9" underwater.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50t Construction Reserve
An interesting opposite:
3 x Twin 14"/45 Superheavy, all at deck level. Back to cruiser size.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
15,000 t light; 15,965 t standard; 17,329 t normal; 18,420 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
540.00 ft / 540.00 ft x 84.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
164.59 m / 164.59 m x 25.60 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 10,927 lbs / 4,956 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 352.00 ft / 107.29 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 4.40" / 112 mm 7.50" / 191 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 77,879 shp / 58,098 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,455 tons
Complement:
754 - 981
Cost:
£6.058 million / $24.234 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,157 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 3,165 tons, 18.3 %
- Belts: 1,304 tons, 7.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,239 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 565 tons, 3.3 %
- Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,529 tons, 14.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,829 tons, 45.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,329 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 320 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,780 lbs / 8,519 Kg = 13.7 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.535
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.75 ft / 6.32 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.5 %
Waterplane Area: 31,211 Square feet or 2,900 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 849 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.26
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (352 ft), thus real armor is 1.5" (38mm) over the 352 ft of the protected box. Deck is at waterline level and all machinery, storage, etc. is under the waterline.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees. Actual belt height is 16 ft.
Misc Weight (320 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
20t Construction Reserve
wow...she is very scary for something on 15,000 tons. of course the second you go up against a ship that can knock holes in that paper-thin armor, I dont see her lasting to long, but taking her antagonist with her is likely
+2kton, much better armor.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 18,008 t standard; 19,465 t normal; 20,630 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 540.00 ft x 83.50 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 164.59 m x 25.45 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 10,927 lbs / 4,956 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.50" / 191 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.20" / 208 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.54" / 65 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 83,612 shp / 62,375 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,622 tons
Complement:
823 - 1,071
Cost:
£6.373 million / $25.491 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,157 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 4,852 tons, 24.9 %
- Belts: 1,947 tons, 10.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,394 tons, 7.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,465 tons, 7.5 %
- Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,715 tons, 13.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,927 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,465 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,405 lbs / 9,709 Kg = 15.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.84
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.83 ft / 0.25 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 21.24 ft / 6.47 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149.5 %
Waterplane Area: 31,163 Square feet or 2,895 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 833 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (350 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 350 ft of the protected box. Deck is at waterline level and all machinery, storage, etc. is under the waterline.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees. Actual belt height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 12" at the top to 3" at the bottom. Main belt is 9-8" LOS thick at waterline.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50t Construction Reserve
even better then before 8)
As always, trying to get the "holy grail", having more or equal to 1000 lb broadside weight per tonnage.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
13,500 t light; 14,416 t standard; 15,698 t normal; 16,724 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 83.50 ft x 23.90 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 25.45 m x 7.28 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 10,677 lbs / 4,843 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 2.50" / 64 mm 4.30" / 109 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.04" / 26 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 74,767 shp / 55,776 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,308 tons
Complement:
700 - 911
Cost:
£5.754 million / $23.018 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,126 tons, 7.2 %
Armour: 2,121 tons, 13.5 %
- Belts: 743 tons, 4.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 766 tons, 4.9 %
- Armour Deck: 571 tons, 3.6 %
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,428 tons, 15.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,525 tons, 47.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,198 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,967 lbs / 7,243 Kg = 11.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.84
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.530
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.23 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.91 ft / 6.68 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.7 %
Waterplane Area: 29,728 Square feet or 2,762 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 852 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Deck covers only armored box (360 ft), thus real armor is 1.5" (38mm) over the 360 ft of the protected box. Deck is at waterline level and all machinery, storage, etc. is under the waterline.
Misc Weight (300 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
Slow but it's more than 1000 lb broadside per 1000 tons.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
12,000 t light; 13,003 t standard; 13,825 t normal; 14,482 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 82.00 ft x 21.20 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 24.99 m x 6.46 m
Armament:
7 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3 mounts), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 12,827 lbs / 5,818 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 338.00 ft / 103.02 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.50" / 216 mm 3.50" / 89 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,244 shp / 16,594 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,479 tons
Complement:
636 - 828
Cost:
£5.445 million / $21.778 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,360 tons, 9.8 %
Armour: 2,710 tons, 19.6 %
- Belts: 1,179 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 965 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 529 tons, 3.8 %
- Conning Tower: 37 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 722 tons, 5.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,857 tons, 49.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,825 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,973 lbs / 6,338 Kg = 10.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.535
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 12.35 ft / 3.76 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.5 %
Waterplane Area: 29,351 Square feet or 2,727 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 895 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main battery in A-B-Y formation, all at deck level. Twin-Triple --- Twin
Deck covers only armored box (338 ft), thus real armor is 1.5" (38mm) over the 338 ft of the protected box. Deck is at waterline level and all machinery, storage, etc. is under the waterline.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50 Construction Reserve
Maintains > 1000lb broadside weight per 1000 ton displacement. Features better armor, requires 2 years rather than 1.5 years to build.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
14,000 t light; 15,140 t standard; 16,037 t normal; 16,755 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
540.00 ft / 540.00 ft x 82.00 ft x 23.50 ft (normal load)
164.59 m / 164.59 m x 24.99 m x 7.16 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 14,477 lbs / 6,567 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.50" / 191 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 1.94" / 49 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,938 shp / 17,858 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,615 tons
Complement:
712 - 926
Cost:
£6.170 million / $24.681 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,532 tons, 9.6 %
Armour: 4,102 tons, 25.6 %
- Belts: 1,684 tons, 10.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,277 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,100 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 777 tons, 4.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,239 tons, 45.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,037 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,671 lbs / 7,108 Kg = 11.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 12.16 ft / 3.71 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.2 %
Waterplane Area: 30,598 Square feet or 2,843 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 888 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Deck covers only armored box (350 ft), thus real armor is 3" (76mm) over the 350 ft of the protected box. Deck is at waterline level and all machinery, storage, etc. is under the waterline.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 10" at the top to 3" at the bottom.
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50 Construction Reserve
You are aware that SpringSharp's "Broadside weight" should actually be called "Thrown weight" since it includes the combined weight of ALL guns, not just what can be fired on a single broadside. Your actual "Broadside weight" for this design is 13,825lbs w/o AA or 13,838.5lbs if you include the AA.
Hmmm his 14"/45 shell weight is nearly equal to the 14"/50 shell that Italia designed. That makes it one heck of a heavy shell but then I build the Italia gun off a real gun the British built for Russia.
I think the Same Ship with 8 or 10 guns in the 10" to 12" range would be a better ship. Of course I have never been infavor of 6 Guns ships....
So the question is what is this ship expected to engage ????? If its and 30K+ Ton Battle Ship with 8+ Guns and Battle Ship armor then I know who I am betting on. It its light Battle Cruisers, heavy cruisers and such then more slightly smaller guns is probably a better idea.
Charles
QuoteSo the question is what is this ship expected to engage Huh?? If its and 30K+ Ton Battle Ship with 8+ Guns and Battle Ship armor then I know who I am betting on. It its light Battle Cruisers, heavy cruisers and such then more slightly smaller guns is probably a better idea.
As I said, everything of importance is under the heavy deck at waterline.
QuoteYou are aware that SpringSharp's "Broadside weight" should actually be called "Thrown weight" since it includes the combined weight of ALL guns, not just what can be fired on a single broadside. Your actual "Broadside weight" for this design is 13,825lbs w/o AA or 13,838.5lbs if you include the AA.
Yes I am aware.
Increase the size, armor, and firepower:
1.01 : Actual Broadside / Tonnage
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 18,390 t standard; 19,394 t normal; 20,197 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
540.00 ft / 540.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
164.59 m / 164.59 m x 26.82 m x 8.08 m
Armament:
10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3 mounts), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised guns - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 17,777 lbs / 8,064 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.72" / 196 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.59" / 66 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,950 shp / 20,105 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,808 tons
Complement:
821 - 1,068
Cost:
£7.502 million / $30.007 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,875 tons, 9.7 %
Armour: 5,074 tons, 26.2 %
- Belts: 2,088 tons, 10.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,365 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,574 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 875 tons, 4.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,826 tons, 45.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,394 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,984 lbs / 8,157 Kg = 13.1 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 12.16 ft / 3.71 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.4 %
Waterplane Area: 32,825 Square feet or 3,050 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1,007 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Deck covers only armored box (350 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 350 ft of the protected box. Deck is at waterline level and all machinery, storage, etc. is under the waterline.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 13" at the top to 3" at the bottom. Main belt is 8-9" at waterline (LOS thickness 8.8-9.5").
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50 Construction Reserve
Effective. You would have to send a real BB to deal with her. That ties up resources that could be used elsewhere. Plus, she would be a nasty convoy escort.
QuoteSo the question is what is this ship expected to engage Huh?? If its and 30K+ Ton Battle Ship with 8+ Guns and Battle Ship armor then I know who I am betting on. It its light Battle Cruisers, heavy cruisers and such then more slightly smaller guns is probably a better idea.
As I said, everything of importance is under the heavy deck at waterline.
QuoteHull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
The question is if you are artificially pushing everything deeper into the ship below the water line and below your heavy armor deck you have just significantly reduced the space available on the ship. You have all your crew quarters, and huge amounts of other necessary functions for the ship hanging out in unprotected parts of the ship.
Honestly I think everyone would love to fit everything under the armor deck at the waterline. But I honestly dont think everything will fit in the space available. The Armored Box concept is a good Idea but It needs to include things above the water line.
Honestly its a functional ship but it is still not going to win a fight against a modern Battle Ship of twice its own Tonnage. If for no other reason then hits above the waterline in that paper thin armor are going to create alot of fires, damage uptake trunks all the things that are critical to long term operations. You just lost all your stored food and your galley all of which have to be above the deck here to make room for your engines, Magazines, and the shell and powder handling rooms surrounding the barbettes.
QuoteThe question is if you are artificially pushing everything deeper into the ship below the water line and below your heavy armor deck you have just significantly reduced the space available on the ship. You have all your crew quarters, and huge amounts of other necessary functions for the ship hanging out in unprotected parts of the ship.
You suppose they were supposed to be in a protected portion to begin with? Don't forget the upper two decks are protected by 13" belt sloped @ 20 degrees. Then there's one more deck to deck level.I'ld say it's not so unprotected as you wish to believe.
QuoteHonestly its a functional ship but it is still not going to win a fight against a modern Battle Ship of twice its own Tonnage. If for no other reason then hits above the waterline in that paper thin armor are going to create alot of fires, damage uptake trunks all the things that are critical to long term operations. You just lost all your stored food and your galley all of which have to be above the deck here to make room for your engines, Magazines, and the shell and powder handling rooms surrounding the barbettes.
You're free to believe what you want. But I should note firmly that the only paper-thin armor here is underwater, where shells don't reach the majority of the time. Maybe you should read the footnotes of my designs, cause I get the feeling you aren't.
The problem is which foot notes on which design there are what 10 designs of the Minimalist BC alone ????
Your Main Belt is between lets see goes back just 1 page 5" and 8" even with improved Krupp KC Armor +10% and Sloped at 20 Degree that doesnt Equal 13" of Vertecal Armor.
The Only Armor I see on these ships that can realistically stop 14" AP Round is the Turrets Fronts.
The Thinning and thickening of the armor will help a bit but exactly which design are we going to discuss.
Two things sink battle Ships hits at or below the water line that compromise the boyancy of the ship. Or Fire....
When it come right down to cases barring the Golden BB hit which your 7" Barbettes may or may not allow two ships with equal fire power shooting at each other the larger ship can absorb more damage.
In reality most Battle Ship on Battle Ship fights involve both sides shooting until one takes a hit that compromises its ability to fight and then it retires behind smoke and the cover of a torpedo attack by its escorts. Unless the fire gets out of control both sides are likely to go home and need a rebuild.
Now if you want to start talking late 1930's designs the armored boxed scheme and all or nothing designs all of varriations but even the USN who started the trend never tried to carry it as far as you are and I wonder if there is a reason for that.
QuoteThe problem is which foot notes on which design there are what 10 designs of the Minimalist BC alone Huh?
There's 17 versions and ~15 different variations.
However, the footnotes I mentioned at in the SS quote. The footnotes is specific to the spec of the ships.
Quote.........
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.4 %
Waterplane Area: 32,825 Square feet or 3,050 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1,007 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Deck covers only armored box (350 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 350 ft of the protected box. Deck is at waterline level and all machinery, storage, etc. is under the waterline.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 13" at the top to 3" at the bottom. Main belt is 8-9" at waterline (LOS thickness 8.8-9.5").
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50 Construction Reserve
QuoteYour Main Belt is between lets see goes back just 1 page 5" and 8" even with improved Krupp KC Armor +10% and Sloped at 20 Degree that doesnt Equal 13" of Vertecal Armor.
It tapers from 13" to 3" at the bottom. By waterline, it's tapered to ~9". With improved Krupp KC Armor +10% and Sloped 20 degrees, the equivalent LOS thickness above waterline would be 15.2" - 10.5".
QuoteWhen it come right down to cases barring the Golden BB hit which your 7" Barbettes may or may not allow two ships with equal fire power shooting at each other the larger ship can absorb more damage.
It's 7.72" barbette, and the chance of hitting a barbette head on is slim to none. In addition, curved nature of the barbette means it offers more resistance.
QuoteNow if you want to start talking late 1930's designs the armored boxed scheme and all or nothing designs all of variations but even the USN who started the trend never tried to carry it as far as you are and I wonder if there is a reason for that.
But they did. Their armor is tapered (like most navies). The Germans built their strength deck at waterline, which lowered reserve buoyancy, but they did it. The US chose to have more reserve buoyancy and placed their deck higher up. That also mean there was more effective armor against a round going into a barbette (as it would have to penetrate deck before the barbette).
However, the US built all their capital ships with a TDS and lots of STS hull griders. The armor scheme isn't unlike the US, it's just lacking a TDS. The addition of a TDS alone, brings the ship to near the same displacement as the US standards.
QuoteThe Thinning and thickening of the armor will help a bit but exactly which design are we going to discuss.
You are discussing the latest designs. You mentioned
QuoteHull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
which is attributed to the 21 kt variations which were the latest few. The previous ones all have room for accommodation and workspaces as excellent.
Bigger ship.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study Tangent V5, Battleship laid down 1925
Displacement:
26,000 t light; 28,141 t standard; 29,456 t normal; 30,508 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 102.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 31.09 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 27,677 lbs / 12,554 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 395.00 ft / 120.40 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 155.00 ft / 47.24 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 395.00 ft / 120.40 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 5.30" / 135 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.59" / 66 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 36,006 shp / 26,861 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,367 tons
Complement:
1,123 - 1,461
Cost:
£11.496 million / $45.984 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,904 tons, 9.9 %
Armour: 8,890 tons, 30.2 %
- Belts: 3,403 tons, 11.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 767 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 2,667 tons, 9.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,991 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,169 tons, 4.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,687 tons, 43.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,456 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,670 lbs / 12,551 Kg = 20.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.613
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.08 ft / 4.60 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.6 %
Waterplane Area: 41,515 Square feet or 3,857 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 236 lbs/sq ft or 1,151 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.64
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Deck covers only armored box (350 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 350 ft of the protected box.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 13.5" at the top to 8.5" at the bottom. Main belt is 11" at waterline (LOS thickness 11.7").
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50 Construction Reserve
That design reminds me of the ships the French had planned during the 1910s. Unfortunately, this ship seems to be terribly prone to capsizing, even with only one turret raised. Also, considered using the 15 inch gun due to its greater range and armor penetration capabilities?
QuoteUnfortunately, this ship seems to be terribly prone to capsizing, even with only one turret raised.
And where exactly are you getting that? There is no reading at all that says such a thing.
QuoteAlso, considered using the 15 inch gun due to its greater range and armor penetration capabilities?
The 14" superheavy has much better penetration capabilities than a 15".
Quote167.64 m / 167.64 m x 31.09 m x 9.14 m
Stability is actualy 1.09 ...not tip top.
Increase beam & reduce draught.
Increase beam (to 32m for ex.) is better too for T4x356.
Jef ;)
QuoteThe 14" superheavy has much better penetration capabilities than a 15".
Only at short range or at long range and steep angles of Impact vs. Deck Armor.
At intermediate range the standard 15" shell with its much higher Muzzle Velocity will give better belt penetration.
Either that or I have completely missread the penetration data from a Navalweapon page.
The USN Super Heavy which your shell is obviously trying to copy gave up performance in once area to achieve better performance in another. It was a compromise made by a navy that expected to engage in long range daylight shooting in the Pacific Ocean.
Also, the CSA's 2000-pounder is firing a pretty dang 'heavy' shell already.
Quote from: Logi on April 20, 2011, 11:05:23 PM
QuoteUnfortunately, this ship seems to be terribly prone to capsizing, even with only one turret raised.
And where exactly are you getting that? There is no reading at all that says such a thing.
QuoteAlso, considered using the 15 inch gun due to its greater range and armor penetration capabilities?
The 14" superheavy has much better penetration capabilities than a 15".
Well, I meant in reference to battle damage. The ship does seem to be vulnerable to capsizing after suffering underwater damage. But that may only be in reference to my design style with two meter thick torpedo blisters on each side. I have noticed that I am the only one using torpedo blisters on my designs, but my bulkhead strength itself does seem to be a tad lighter than those others use (2 inches, while I seen them up to 2.5 or 3.5 inches).
Also, while the 14 inch should be fine for a ship in close range, you have to keep in mind that this ship is only capable of 21 knots. An increasing number of ships are coming with heavier guns than that, and an increasing number of ships are going to have higher speeds than that. If you face a ship that is capable of keeping whatever distance it wants from you and that also has longer range guns like 15 inch, it isn't going to end well.
Now, if you can get close enough to a ship, the range starts to matter less and it just turns into a battle over who can throw out the most lead. At closer ranges, any modern naval gun can penetrate the thickest armor that can be produced, so you will be able to throw out more lead per gun and as a whole relative to a ship armed with the heavier guns. It's rather pre-dreadnought in concept, but it can work. That is, assuming that you can close enough to be able to punch through the enemies belt, which is probably going to be problematic.
QuoteAlso, while the 14 inch should be fine for a ship in close range, you have to keep in mind that this ship is only capable of 21 knots. An increasing number of ships are coming with heavier guns than that, and an increasing number of ships are going to have higher speeds than that. If you face a ship that is capable of keeping whatever distance it wants from you and that also has longer range guns like 15 inch, it isn't going to end well.
It's difficult to aim outside of the range of a 14" simply because FCS are not up to par. Range differences are rather overstated here.
QuoteNow, if you can get close enough to a ship, the range starts to matter less and it just turns into a battle over who can throw out the most lead. At closer ranges, any modern naval gun can penetrate the thickest armor that can be produced, so you will be able to throw out more lead per gun and as a whole relative to a ship armed with the heavier guns. It's rather pre-dreadnought in concept, but it can work. That is, assuming that you can close enough to be able to punch through the enemies belt, which is probably going to be problematic.
With less guns but heavier guns, you are trading chance to land a hit for damage on a hit. A 16 x 14" can simply use HE until your ship is soft-killed. It has a much higher chance of hitting.
QuoteAlso, the CSA's 2000-pounder is firing a pretty dang 'heavy' shell already.
I meant the standard 15".
QuoteThe USN Super Heavy which your shell is obviously trying to copy gave up performance in once area to achieve better performance in another. It was a compromise made by a navy that expected to engage in long range daylight shooting in the Pacific Ocean.
You are wrong. I was never trying to copy another naval gun when I made the 14" superheavy. I was simply trying to get more firepower on a smaller gun. Any similarities to the USN 16" superheavy is only a coincidence.
QuoteStability is actualy 1.09 ...not tip top.
What? 1.10 is excess. 1.09 is ok. 1.08 is not tip top. 1.07 is bad. That is the scale I've always used.
QuoteIncrease beam (to 32m for ex.) is better too for T4x356.
There is no need to increase beam. The BC is 0.613 and the beam is wide enough to support T4X14".
QuoteStability is actualy 1.09 ...not tip top.
What? 1.10 is excess. 1.09 is ok. 1.08 is not tip top. 1.07 is bad. That is the scale I've always used.
I've always went with 1.10 as the minimum, but have allowed some fudging. Sometimes you'll get a 60% steadiness and a 1.09 stability, but rasing stability to 1.10 drops steadiness to 58%...kinda weird like that, so I'll settle for the 1.09 to keep the 60 instead of the 58.
I notice you have 1.09 and 51%, I'm gonna guess that raising the stability to 1.10 drops the steadiness to 48-49%, which is a situation where I'd settle for the 1.09.
Interesting.
A shorter Pennsylvania but with 5' more beam and Quads rather than triples.
Only 1 raised mount is an interesting choice, but you don't really need em if you can't chase or run.
Considering that deck averaging isn't officially accepted, don't care for it.
Even counting it- you state a 350ft citadel, when the belt covers 395ft.
And lastly, the sheet RLBH/RA came up with in Wesworld gives a needed deck of 85.27 to make 102mm.
Can't see you're calculations, but the citadel is 70% of length, and considering that the citadel is also the broadest part of the ship, providing 64% of the final 102mm armor doesn't seem correct.
QuoteEven counting it- you state a 350ft citadel, when the belt covers 395ft.
That's a mistake. I forgot to change the figures in the notes section, but the number in the deck value is always counted.
QuoteCan't see you're calculations, but the citadel is 70% of length, and considering that the citadel is also the broadest part of the ship, providing 64% of the final 102mm armor doesn't seem correct.
? Citadel was never 70% of the ship. The ship needs as much space as given by the main belt length. The belt length dictates the coverage of the armored deck.
Hence:
QuoteDeck covers only armored box
The armored box is the coverage of the main belt. I don't know where you are getting 70% from.
QuoteConsidering that deck averaging isn't officially accepted, don't care for it.
QuoteAnd lastly, the sheet RLBH/RA came up with in Wesworld gives a needed deck of 85.27 to make 102mm.
If you use SS3 and use it's break up of the decks, you get pretty much the same weight for the required thickness as I've simmed here. You may think differently but I place more trust in a program from the same creators for calculating such things than a sheet.
Quote from: Logi on April 21, 2011, 06:35:55 PM
QuoteCan't see you're calculations, but the citadel is 70% of length, and considering that the citadel is also the broadest part of the ship, providing 64% of the final 102mm armor doesn't seem correct.
? Citadel was never 70% of the ship. The ship needs as much space as given by the main belt length. The belt length dictates the coverage of the armored deck.
Hence:
QuoteDeck covers only armored box
The armored box is the coverage of the main belt. I don't know where you are getting 70% from.
Well, Main belt is 395 feet. Ship Length is 550 feet.
395/550 = 72%
QuoteWell, Main belt is 395 feet. Ship Length is 550 feet.
395/550 = 72%
Now I see what you were trying to say. Well, thank you for catching that mistake. You had me confused for a second there.
Well in any case, I upsized the large desgin by 2 kton. I've also made sure I didn't make that sort of mistake.
QuoteMinimalist Concept Study, Light Battlecruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
28,000 t light; 30,196 t standard; 32,208 t normal; 33,818 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 102.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 31.09 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 27,677 lbs / 12,554 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
- Armour deck: 4.26" / 108 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 38,473 shp / 28,701 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,622 tons
Complement:
1,201 - 1,562
Cost:
£11.762 million / $47.048 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,904 tons, 9.0 %
Armour: 10,590 tons, 32.9 %
- Belts: 3,398 tons, 10.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 719 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 3,024 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 3,384 tons, 10.5 %
- Conning Tower: 65 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,249 tons, 3.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,810 tons, 39.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,208 tons, 13.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 447 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,021 lbs / 14,524 Kg = 23.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.648
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.47 ft / 4.71 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.8 %
Waterplane Area: 42,905 Square feet or 3,986 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 229 lbs/sq ft or 1,118 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.65
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Deck covers only armored box (370 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 370 ft of the protected box one deck under decklevel. At decklevel there is a 1.5" (38mm) weather deck running through the whole ship.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 13.5" at the top to 8.5" at the bottom. Main belt is 11" at waterline (LOS thickness 11.7").
Misc Weight (350 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
50 Construction Reserve
QuoteWell, I meant in reference to battle damage. The ship does seem to be vulnerable to capsizing after suffering underwater damage.
That's in your imagination. That's the level of comparing a standard to the Richelieu and saying the Richelieu has a less robust underwater defense so it must capsize after an underwater hit. Yes, my design is less sturdy than your (larger) more armored ship, but it is not "terribly prone to capsizing".
QuoteBut that may only be in reference to my design style with two meter thick torpedo blisters on each side. I have noticed that I am the only one using torpedo blisters on my designs, but my bulkhead strength itself does seem to be a tad lighter than those others use (2 inches, while I seen them up to 2.5 or 3.5 inches).
Very thick bulkheads are counter-productive. They cause more damage to the ship than it absorbs. That is why I try to use only 1.5" thick TDS. Other than actual things that happen when bulkheads are too thick, you can see yourself there is a huge diminishing return once you past 1" thick TDS in SS.
Also, I forgot why, but we hate Torpedo blisters here.
PS: That is also why I didn't increase the main belt thickness in my tapering designs. Simply because the end belt is reaching underwater into the TDS and as such a very thick metal in the TDS would be counterproductive. If possible, I would have calculated it with a taper belt from 13.5" (the upper limit) to something of the 1" variety, but it is difficult to do so.
1. Actually I use torpedo blisters as well, as that fits the development level of my naval designers. Blisters do have negatives IRL* and P3D has observed SS2 doesn't do them right- I think his point is that adding blisters doesn't effect the ship's structural allocation properly.
2. As for thickness- most people here sim the holding bulkhead alone. The bulkheads separating internal compartments are not generally included. Perhaps they should, but they are not. Interior bulkheads are not built from the same type of armor steel as the main belt, they are meant to deform greatly and then tear- not shatter. As a result, thick single bulkheads are indeed undesirable as they are too thick to stretch instead of rupture. Plus historically the stiffer bulkheads in SoDak and Yamato had joint problems trying to balance the stretch/break issue. To thin and you risk perforation by ejected parts of the hull and structure on the surface of the blast.
*Negatives include : gas bubble doesn't vent up as much, if void space then prone to off-center flooding, the wider they are, the further away from the belt a "short" round can enter the hull and dive inside the hull, and of course they slow down the vessel by increasing surface area.
Concept study for a heavily armored Cruiser. As there is no value for a 9-10" gun over a 8.27" gun, I've gone with the smaller gun but mounted more barrels. As the Deutschland managed triple 11" on 72ft beam, I expect quadruple 8.27" to be possible on the same beam.
It has enough guns to HE heavily armored ships and enough armor to take punishment in return. It has a large secondary to swat screen ships as well. It has a lower speed as a function, but the ship isn't intended to be a chaser.
QuoteCruiser Concept Study, Heavy Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
13,000 t light; 13,556 t standard; 14,837 t normal; 15,862 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 72.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 21.95 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
12 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (3x4 guns), 282.57lbs / 128.17kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (10x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1922 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1922 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,446 lbs / 2,016 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 356.00 ft / 108.51 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.50" / 216 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 67,892 shp / 50,647 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,306 tons
Complement:
671 - 873
Cost:
£3.393 million / $13.573 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 556 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 4,549 tons, 30.7 %
- Belts: 2,334 tons, 15.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 929 tons, 6.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,248 tons, 8.4 %
- Conning Tower: 39 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,303 tons, 15.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,291 tons, 35.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,837 tons, 12.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,232 lbs / 8,270 Kg = 64.5 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.525
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.94 ft / 5.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.8 %
Waterplane Area: 26,987 Square feet or 2,507 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 637 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Main belt is sloped 20 degrees, actual belt height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 13.5" at the top to 4.5" at the bottom. LOS thickness at waterline is 9.56" (243mm).
Alternative
QuoteCruiser Concept Study, Heavy Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
13,500 t light; 14,131 t standard; 15,444 t normal; 16,494 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 76.00 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 23.16 m x 7.47 m
Armament:
16 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x4 guns), 282.57lbs / 128.17kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (10x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1922 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1922 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,576 lbs / 2,529 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 356.00 ft / 108.51 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.85" / 225 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 52,205 shp / 38,945 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,363 tons
Complement:
692 - 900
Cost:
£3.562 million / $14.246 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 697 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 5,130 tons, 33.2 %
- Belts: 2,347 tons, 15.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,157 tons, 7.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,586 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,771 tons, 11.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,602 tons, 36.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,944 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,672 lbs / 8,923 Kg = 69.6 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.24 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.8 %
Waterplane Area: 28,573 Square feet or 2,655 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 674 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main belt is sloped 20 degrees, actual belt height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 13.5" at the top to 4.5" at the bottom. LOS thickness at waterline is 9.56" (243mm).
- interesting - especially as the protection vs. speed balance is unusual
- would have expected 30 knots and less thick armour e.g. 6/7" belt rather than 9"
- some reason why rather slow + very heavily protected for their size? - what do you see the likely opposition as ?
6"/7" Belt protects nothing over a 4" belt. A 6"/7" is, therefore unnecessary weight. Also the armor tapers from 13.5" to 4.5". So it is, in actuality, much thicker than 9" above the waterline.
As for it's opposition, it could be anything. It doesn't really matter. The ships, by existence, force control on a portion of the sea. By doing so, it can make the enemy come towards it instead of chasing.In other words, it does sea-lane control.
If it were to fight a cruiser, say the Wheeler. The Wheeler would be forced to engage and in such a situation, be hard pressed to take advantage of its speed and pull a victory. Of course, the Wheeler can choose not to engage, but that just allows continued control of that portion of the sea.
By extension of it's heavy armor and high volume of fire, it can also serve in the battleline. It would not be slugging with battleships, but could effectively keep cruisers and small ships at bay.
i like the concept - have looked at something similar - but kept armament at 8 main battery - 10/11"
Re Belt thickness - agree 6/7" no more useful than 4" vs Big stuff - but vs 8/9" guns - gives some protection at mdm/longer range?
Again, it's not 9" of armor, it's a tapering belt.
7/9" 6/7" is still useless. The range at which 6"/7" doesn't get penetrated by a 8"/9" is outside of spotting and most likely, FCS range. So really, it's either 9"> or 4"~3".
The problem with larger guns is that a 8.27" gun isn't likely to penetrate just as a 11" gun won't penetrate a heavily armored ship. Hence, going for the higher volume of fire and RoF (easier to range and rapid fire). Also, by putting 11"/10" guns on such a ship, you would be forcing the ship into a specific sort of role. As of now, this ship can be a escort, cruiser/tb/dd killer, etc.
Also I'm not sure if the same protection etc. could be made with 11" guns on the same weight.
My interpretation of the 13.5" Study using Quad and Twin fusion (to achieve the odd number of 18 barrels).
This one is more form fitting.
Quote13.5 Inch Quad Turret Study, CSA Battleship Turret Study (Logi Version) laid down 1920
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 37,410 t standard; 39,928 t normal; 41,943 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 111.55 ft) x 28.87 ft (normal load)
240.00 m / 240.00 m x 32.00 m (Bulges 34.00 m) x 8.80 m
Armament:
16 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
2 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft
18 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 28,497 lbs / 12,926 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.7" / 272 mm 510.00 ft / 155.45 m 17.26 ft / 5.26 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.50" / 38 mm 510.00 ft / 155.45 m 32.15 ft / 9.80 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 12.0" / 305 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 1.50" / 38 mm - 3.00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 53,973 shp / 40,264 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,533 tons
Complement:
1,411 - 1,835
Cost:
£9.387 million / $37.549 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,955 tons, 7.4 %
Armour: 11,360 tons, 28.5 %
- Belts: 4,042 tons, 10.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 910 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 2,900 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 3,205 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 302 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1,887 tons, 4.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,398 tons, 46.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,928 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
52,420 lbs / 23,778 Kg = 42.6 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 8.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 18.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.551
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.21 ft / 6.16 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.5 %
Waterplane Area: 57,751 Square feet or 5,365 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 233 lbs/sq ft or 1,139 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Arrangement: Quad - SF Quad - Fwd Bridge - Quad - Aft Bridge - Quad - Twin
Main belt armor sloped 20 degrees, giving a vertical height of 16.5 feet. Relative thickness to a 90 degree impact is 11.39 inches.
Misc Weight (400 tons):
250 tons fire control system
25 tons radar
25 tons long range wireless
25 tons night fighting gear
25 tons crane and catapult for floatplane
10 tons 2x floatplanes
40 tons reserve
This version is distinctly more Logi.
Quote13.5 Inch Quad Turret Study, CSA Battleship Turret Study (Logi Version) laid down 1920
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 37,238 t standard; 39,750 t normal; 41,760 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 105.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
240.00 m / 240.00 m x 32.00 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
16 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 25,664 lbs / 11,641 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 510.00 ft / 155.45 m 17.26 ft / 5.26 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 510.00 ft / 155.45 m 32.15 ft / 9.80 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 10.7" / 272 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 53,927 shp / 40,230 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,522 tons
Complement:
1,406 - 1,829
Cost:
£8.817 million / $35.269 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,668 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 13,056 tons, 32.8 %
- Belts: 4,920 tons, 12.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 910 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 2,733 tons, 6.9 %
- Armour Deck: 4,393 tons, 11.1 %
- Conning Tower: 100 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,886 tons, 4.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,990 tons, 42.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,750 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,305 lbs / 25,086 Kg = 45.0 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 8.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.88
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.580
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 19.51 ft / 5.95 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.5 %
Waterplane Area: 59,361 Square feet or 5,515 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 215 lbs/sq ft or 1,051 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.09
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Main belt armor sloped 20 degrees, giving a vertical height of 16.5 feet. Relative thickness to a 90 degree impact is 13.83 inches.
Misc Weight (400 tons):
250 tons fire control system
25 tons radar
25 tons long range wireless
25 tons night fighting gear
25 tons crane and catapult for floatplane
10 tons 2x floatplanes
40 tons reserve
Maximum battleships, 35kton to 40kton.
QuoteMaximum Concept Study, Heavy Battleship laid down 1925
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 37,748 t standard; 40,073 t normal; 41,933 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
600.00 ft / 600.00 ft x 110.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
182.88 m / 182.88 m x 33.53 m x 9.75 m
Armament:
16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline amidships
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 34,304 lbs / 15,560 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 210.00 ft / 64.01 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.10" / 104 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 43,113 shp / 32,163 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,185 tons
Complement:
1,415 - 1,840
Cost:
£14.528 million / $58.112 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,593 tons, 9.0 %
Armour: 12,750 tons, 31.8 %
- Belts: 3,944 tons, 9.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,010 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 3,835 tons, 9.6 %
- Armour Deck: 3,885 tons, 9.7 %
- Conning Tower: 76 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,400 tons, 3.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,877 tons, 42.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,073 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 380 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40,286 lbs / 18,273 Kg = 29.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 17.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.664
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.45 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 15.62 ft / 4.76 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.1 %
Waterplane Area: 51,215 Square feet or 4,758 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 258 lbs/sq ft or 1,261 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Main Deck covers only armored box (390 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 390 ft of the protected box one deck under decklevel. At decklevel there is a 1.5" (38mm) weather deck running through the whole ship.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 13.5" at the top to 10.5" at the bottom. Main belt is 12" at waterline (LOS thickness 12.8").
Misc Weight (380 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
80 Construction Reserve
QuoteMaximum Battleship Concept Study, Heavy Battleship laid down 1925
Displacement:
40,000 t light; 43,203 t standard; 45,770 t normal; 47,824 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
680.00 ft / 680.00 ft x 117.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
207.26 m / 207.26 m x 35.66 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
24 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 40,904 lbs / 18,554 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 45,080 shp / 33,630 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,621 tons
Complement:
1,563 - 2,033
Cost:
£17.016 million / $68.063 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4,279 tons, 9.3 %
Armour: 14,590 tons, 31.9 %
- Belts: 4,425 tons, 9.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 855 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 4,692 tons, 10.3 %
- Armour Deck: 4,508 tons, 9.8 %
- Conning Tower: 110 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,464 tons, 3.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,315 tons, 42.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,770 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 353 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,425 lbs / 21,512 Kg = 34.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 7.8 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.08 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.51 ft / 5.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120.5 %
Waterplane Area: 60,921 Square feet or 5,660 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 253 lbs/sq ft or 1,236 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.17
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Main belt sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 13.5" at the top to 10.5" at the bottom. Main belt is 12" at waterline (LOS thickness 12.8").
Misc Weight (353 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
53 Construction Reserve
The deck seems rather thick for a vessel with 14 inch guns. Also, what kind of turret arrangement is used with the 40k ton ship?
Quote from: Delta Force on May 09, 2011, 05:20:47 PM
The deck seems rather thick for a vessel with 14 inch guns.
With this many 14" guns, its safe to say that she is meant for taken on opponents armed with larger guns. Caried Guns=/=Guns protected against in all cases.
Quote from: Delta Force on May 09, 2011, 05:20:47 PM
Also, what kind of turret arrangement is used with the 40k ton ship?
My guess would be A(B)C-SS-X(Y)Z with B and Y elevated.
Good lord that is a ton of firepower! On the 35ktoner, what happens if you rip out Q turret and make her faster? Both of these would be ever scarier with more speed, as I think 16x14" is good for a soft kill and hard kills of all but the most heavily armored ships (Valles, Im looking a you ;D)
Quote from: Delta Force on May 09, 2011, 05:20:47 PM
The deck seems rather thick for a vessel with 14 inch guns.
My ship design philosophy is that is the 15-16" range, the armor on battleships that such ships would face is so high as to render the differences between 15-16" almost nonexistent. (The 14" superheavy has the performance of a 15" at distance, ranges where a 15" penetrates a belt better is too close anyways). This discounts the performance of a 16" superheavy.
So the theory states that instead of wasting the huge weight drain that is the jump from 15" to 16", stick with the lower end and increase the number of barrels. I believe that anything a large battleship would face would be armored to resist large caliber shells, so it's better to have more barrels than a slightly larger gun. Instead of trying to aim for a Hard Kill (which is unlikely anyways), aim for the soft kill or the Golden Twinkie shot.
Quote from: Delta Force on May 09, 2011, 05:20:47 PM
Also, what kind of turret arrangement is used with the 40k ton ship?
As Snip states, it could be A(B)C-SS-X(Y)Z with B and Y elevated. Originally, since I have a hatred for triangle pyramid arrangements (They make my eyes bleed and French designers melt into jelly in shame), it was to be arranged a la Fuso. However, there is enough space to make both arrangements work.
Quote from: snip on May 09, 2011, 07:45:24 PM
Good lord that is a ton of firepower! On the 35ktoner, what happens if you rip out Q turret and make her faster? Both of these would be ever scarier with more speed, as I think 16x14" is good for a soft kill and hard kills of all but the most heavily armored ships (Valles, Im looking a you ;D)
I'll work on such a design later in the day.
???
Not sure that the mid turret is the better choice.
...
IMO Mogami turrets disposition is better.
...
or 4T4 is also exellent.
If you remove the mid turret, you can increase protection.
Jef
Quote from: Jefgte on May 10, 2011, 04:30:24 PM
If you remove the mid turret, you can increase protection
I dont think that you really need to increase protection as much as speed. that would lead to it being more balanced IMO.
A measly +4 knots.
QuoteMaximum Concept Study, Heavy Battleship laid down 1925
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 37,348 t standard; 39,664 t normal; 41,517 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
680.00 ft / 680.00 ft x 106.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
207.26 m / 207.26 m x 32.31 m x 9.75 m
Armament:
16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 27,704 lbs / 12,566 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ends: 2.50" / 64 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.09" / 104 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 77,621 shp / 57,905 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,169 tons
Complement:
1,404 - 1,826
Cost:
£13.155 million / $52.622 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,907 tons, 7.3 %
Armour: 12,864 tons, 32.4 %
- Belts: 4,294 tons, 10.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,140 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 3,336 tons, 8.4 %
- Armour Deck: 3,994 tons, 10.1 %
- Conning Tower: 100 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,520 tons, 6.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,322 tons, 41.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,664 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 387 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44,137 lbs / 20,020 Kg = 32.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.602
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.08 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.87 ft / 5.45 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.4 %
Waterplane Area: 52,810 Square feet or 4,906 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 232 lbs/sq ft or 1,134 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Main Deck covers only armored box (440 ft), thus real armor is 4" (102mm) over the 440 ft of the protected box one deck under decklevel. At decklevel there is a 1.5" (38mm) weather deck running through the whole ship.
Main belt sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 16 ft. Main belt tapers from 13.5" at the top to 10.5" at the bottom. Main belt is 12" at waterline (LOS thickness 12.8").
Misc Weight (387 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
87 Construction Reserve
I think that the additional 4knts makes it a much more well-rounded design, wile still having the high firepower for both hard and soft kills. I think that the additional speed will make it more of a threat in the strategic and tactical areas due to its ability to chase down older battleships and with desent warning via its spotterplanes, be able to potentialy evade faster ships. Overall, a very very capable opponent that I would be very hesitant to go up against in something of the same size range.
QuoteI dont think that you really need to increase protection as much as speed. that would lead to it being more balanced IMO.
QuoteI think that the additional 4knts makes it a much more well-rounded design, wile still having the high firepower for both hard and soft kills. I think that the additional speed will make it more of a threat in the strategic and tactical areas due to its ability to chase down older battleships and with desent warning via its spotterplanes, be able to potentialy evade faster ships. Overall, a very very capable opponent that I would be very hesitant to go up against in something of the same size range.
I mean that remove the mid turret could give a better balanced BB.
Finaly, Increase speed is a better choice than increase protection.
Jef
The armor seems a tad light for a battleship, and the speed is an issue too. It's too fast for the battleship squadron, and would slow down a battlecruiser squadron too much.
Quote from: Delta Force on May 13, 2011, 12:29:04 PM
The armor seems a tad light for a battleship, and the speed is an issue too. It's too fast for the battleship squadron, and would slow down a battlecruiser squadron too much.
Armor is the best you can roll. It is tapering armor, 13.5" at the top. Speed is okay, standard battleship squadron goes at 24 kts.
21 kts is slow actually.
Quote from: Logi on May 14, 2011, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: Delta Force on May 13, 2011, 12:29:04 PM
The armor seems a tad light for a battleship, and the speed is an issue too. It's too fast for the battleship squadron, and would slow down a battlecruiser squadron too much.
Armor is the best you can roll. It is tapering armor, 13.5" at the top. Speed is okay, standard battleship squadron goes at 24 kts.
21 kts is slow actually.
Speedy by historical standards, although looking around it seems only the CSA is using the 21 knot battlesquadron.