A project that has to fill in the gap between the 500 tons DD's of the Plumeau class and the Demarce class cruisers that are being churned out by the French yards.
France lacks appropriate DD tech, and therefore has 2 options. Or buy foreign, or ignore the DD tech.
The ignoring the DD tech has 1 advantage, and 1 disadvantage. Ships with the same capacities as a foreign destroyer will be twice as large.
A design, albeit slow with 27 kts has some appeal. The huge range- for a DD- of 6000nm and the good seakeeping qualities have their advantages. With 130 misc weight, the options are available to fit new technologies.
Quote
Gauloise, French Destroyer equivalent laid down 1912
Displacement:
2.501 t light; 2.612 t standard; 3.108 t normal; 3.506 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393,70 ft / 393,70 ft x 39,37 ft x 12,47 ft (normal load)
120,00 m / 120,00 m x 12,00 m x 3,80 m
Armament:
6 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
12 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 681 lbs / 309 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm
2nd: 0,50" / 13 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25.215 shp / 18.810 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 894 tons
Complement:
207 - 270
Cost:
£0,294 million / $1,177 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 78 tons, 2,5%
Armour: 40 tons, 1,3%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 40 tons, 1,3%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
Machinery: 1.005 tons, 32,3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.247 tons, 40,1%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 607 tons, 19,5%
Miscellaneous weights: 130 tons, 4,2%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2.484 lbs / 1.127 Kg = 29,7 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
Metacentric height 1,7 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 12,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,563
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (50%): 13,88 ft / 4,23 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 13,62 ft / 4,15 m
- Stern: 13,45 ft / 4,10 m
- Average freeboard: 15,19 ft / 4,63 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 128,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109,9%
Waterplane Area: 10.950 Square feet or 1.017 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 67 lbs/sq ft or 326 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 1,80
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Too big and too slow for torpedo attacks.
But scary nonetheless.
You can churn out half a dozen of these a year.
After a couple of years you'll be able to block large swathes of the Ocean of any shipping you dislike.
Borys
It's about the same as my San Juan class. I got 28 knots on the same displacement, of course I had way less firepower than yours does.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=674.msg24435#msg24435
The improved San Juan's odds are never to be built.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2100.msg27084#msg27084
Another half knot of speed, twin gun mounts and a bit more range.
If you really want to use these as TBD fill in then I would suggest at least 29 knots for whatever design you use.
Michael
The French ship has the QUANTITY which you will never match - your ships must be better on an individual basis.
Your 8 San Juans cannot compare with the dozens of Gauloise which France can churn out at the rate of 6-8 a year.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on July 26, 2008, 11:10:45 AM
The French ship has the QUANTITY which you will never match - your ships must be better on an individual basis.
Your 8 San Juans cannot compare with the dozens of Gauloise which France can churn out at the rate of 6-8 a year.
Borys
To keep the thread jacking to a min... I will leave it at that I can't afford 6 to 8 San Jaun's a year. I am just suggesting another design in about the same size class and roughly the same mission.
Michael
OK, OK!
Yes, another ship, which IIRC I criticised, is broadely similar :)
Borys
One thing I do wonder is there the deck foot print for all those guns on the French sloop. I had trouble fitting the weapons I did. This has another main gun and eight more secondaries.
Quote from: miketr on July 26, 2008, 11:55:28 AM
One thing I do wonder is there the deck foot print for all those guns on the French sloop. I had trouble fitting the weapons I did. This has another main gun and eight more secondaries.
Good point. IMO there is no space for those 2,75" guns.
With poor firing arcs, the 6x14cm guns could be crammed into such a ship, I suppose:
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/hochseeflotte/gtb1916.gif
As the French design is 40' longer, a fifth gun could be fitted be rather easily fitted.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on July 26, 2008, 12:05:58 PM
Quote from: miketr on July 26, 2008, 11:55:28 AM
One thing I do wonder is there the deck foot print for all those guns on the French sloop. I had trouble fitting the weapons I did. This has another main gun and eight more secondaries.
Good point. IMO there is no space for those 2,75" guns.
With poor firing arcs, the 6x14cm guns could be crammed into such a ship, I suppose:
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/hochseeflotte/gtb1916.gif
As the French design is 40' longer, a fifth gun could be fitted be rather easily fitted.
Borys
We got Groningen with seven centerline guns: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=679.msg11101#msg11101
Yes, she is much larger, but the amount of deckspace is similar.
So I do not think there is any major problems with fitting the main guns, but the 7cm guns will most likley cut down the firing arcs of the fourteens quite a bit.
But without a drawing it is very hard to tell. ;)
A non French DD design that almost fullfills all the wishes by the MN.
Pity about the cramped crew quarters, again, that will be seen as a degradation of the High standard the French crews anticipate with new ships.
Belga, French Destroyer laid down 1912
QuoteDisplacement:
1.003 t light; 1.047 t standard; 1.179 t normal; 1.285 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
311,68 ft / 305,12 ft x 26,25 ft x 11,15 ft (normal load)
95,00 m / 93,00 m x 8,00 m x 3,40 m
Armament:
2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 248 lbs / 112 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19.408 shp / 14.479 Kw = 29,00 kts
Range 4.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 237 tons
Complement:
99 - 130
Cost:
£0,136 million / $0,546 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 29 tons, 2,4%
Machinery: 551 tons, 46,8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 363 tons, 30,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 176 tons, 15,0%
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 5,1%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
362 lbs / 164 Kg = 4,3 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
Metacentric height 0,9 ft / 0,3 m
Roll period: 11,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,462
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17,47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Mid (50%): 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Stern: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 12,49 ft / 3,81 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175,3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 62,3%
Waterplane Area: 5.160 Square feet or 479 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 64%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 155 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,61
- Longitudinal: 2,34
- Overall: 0,70
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
3 tones overweight :)
And IMO the 14cm guns are wastedweight - on such a small hull they are difficult to operate and load. At higher speeds usuelss.
But if the customer wants them ...
Borys
An Italian design for a Destroyer, designed to fit in the French fleet.
QuoteBrosse, French Torpedo boat destroyer laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
748 t light; 785 t standard; 926 t normal; 1.039 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
331,36 ft / 328,08 ft x 29,53 ft x 8,37 ft (normal load)
101,00 m / 100,00 m x 9,00 m x 2,55 m
Armament:
5 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1913 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 178 lbs / 81 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13.510 shp / 10.078 Kw = 28,00 kts
Range 5.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 255 tons
Complement:
83 - 109
Cost:
£0,110 million / $0,441 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 22 tons, 2,4%
Machinery: 402 tons, 43,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 254 tons, 27,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 178 tons, 19,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 7,6%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
307 lbs / 139 Kg = 8,7 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,41
Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 10,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,21
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,400
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18,11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Forecastle (20%): 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
- Mid (50%): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Stern: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 11,13 ft / 3,39 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 167,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 85,7%
Waterplane Area: 5.963 Square feet or 554 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 70%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 122 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,51
- Longitudinal: 0,94
- Overall: 0,54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc weight
24 tons torpedo and tubes
5 tons very small marconi
11 ton crew comfort messures (Insulation, heating and ventilation/cooling of the messroom)
10 ton mines
20 tons reserve.
gub-boatish ...
and the number of mounts seems to be off
The amount of mounts was off due a typo. Doesn't affect the ship, and is corrected in the file.
But what is "gub-boatish"
I know, she's slow, but slow in all weather and with a good range. Pity 6000Nm range affected her to much.
And the cramped quarters for the crew won't make her popular.
At least non of the 140mm QF guns are placed on her.
Gub-boatish is a typo. I meant gun-boatish, i.e. too many too big guns and too slow to be a destroyer. I.e. a "gunboat".
Yes, the lack of 14cm QF guns makes them more potent in combat.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on August 08, 2008, 09:09:24 AM
Gub-boatish is a typo. I meant gun-boatish, i.e. too many too big guns and too slow to be a destroyer. I.e. a "gunboat".
Well, is "gunboat" not a pretty good description on the job a torpedo-boat destroyer has? It is after all primary intended to outgun torpedo boats.
Thanks to Korpen, another design came trough.
A Pure TB, written large.
QuoteLéopard, French Heavy TB laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
1.001 t light; 1.025 t standard; 1.130 t normal; 1.214 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
354,33 ft / 354,33 ft x 29,07 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
108,00 m / 108,00 m x 8,86 m x 3,00 m
Armament:
2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount aft
Weight of broadside 21 lbs / 9 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 28.517 shp / 21.273 Kw = 33,00 kts
Range 1.655nm at 16,00 kts
Range 220nm at 33.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 188 tons
Complement:
96 - 126
Cost:
£0,140 million / $0,559 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 0,2%
Machinery: 648 tons, 57,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 310 tons, 27,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 129 tons, 11,4%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 3,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
279 lbs / 127 Kg = 26,7 x 2,8 " / 70 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,34
Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 10,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,391
Length to Beam Ratio: 12,22 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18,82 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Forecastle (15%): 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
- Mid (27%): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Stern: 8,86 ft / 2,70 m
- Average freeboard: 11,82 ft / 3,60 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 190,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76,1%
Waterplane Area: 6.310 Square feet or 586 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 128 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,09
- Overall: 0,54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
the misc weight is divided:
-crew comfort messures
-marconi instalation
-reserve weight for later improvements.
Istead of "pure" this or other , how about a balanced design?
Borys
Quote from: Borys on August 09, 2008, 01:32:46 PM
Istead of "pure" this or other , how about a balanced design?
Borys
Balanced is boring :P
France can afford to specialise.
Ahoj!
OK - I will NOT try a nightime forcing of the La Manche knowing that there are two flotillas of such ships on the French side ...
Borys
How big is a flottilla of these tiny ships? A hogshead full?
If destroyer division is say 6, a squadron 12, a flotilla should be at least 24 DD plus other ships.
A flotilla of such ships would be 8-12 vessels.
15 tops.
Borys
The first 7 are ordered at foreing yards.
And another set of 8 is ordered.
In HY 2 1914 the first defence flottila will be formed and active.
Quote from: maddox on August 17, 2008, 04:39:46 PM
And another set of 8 is ordered.
In HY 2 1914 the first defence flottila will be formed and active.
try and get all the diffren builders to make a drawing of the ship, would be fun to see the different styles of different yards on the same design. :)
If you please. I enjoy the drawings.
And you made a lot of them already.
Question: do you mean to have both guns aft? Also, do all torpedoes need to be on the centerline?
Both guns are aft, to keep the front as clean as possible.
The Torpedo Tubes are of the double kind, and each take 9m of length. ideal to fit between the multitude of smokestacks.
Also, the ship isn't wide enough to accomodate seperate tubes on the side, unless she's a very very large MTB. Hmmm, 8 tubes in the bow....
The CSA finds multitudes of stacks to be an affront (and a waste of deck space), but we'll see what we can do.
Quote from: guinness on August 17, 2008, 10:01:50 PM
The CSA finds multitudes of stacks to be an affront (and a waste of deck space), but we'll see what we can do.
Then do not draw multitudes of stacks! :)
The point would after all to see the difference in result based on the same specs. :)
So I wonder: what's a typical color scheme for French ships?
Historical for French torpedo craft appears to be dark gray or black more or less all over, though I've also found allusions to green below the waterline, white above, with black funnels and uppers.
This is what is seen most of color on French ships.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/GreaterNapoleon.png)
Found this when doing a spot of research:
Quote
Because of the French practice of making defaulters serve out punishment by hard labour, it was common for some turrets on major ships to appear in a shade of 'Bronze brown. This was achieved by having the defaulters scrub the outside of those particular turrets in used cooking oil left over from the gallery. This can be seen in black and white photographs, where some turrets appear very much darker than the rest. Which turrets this was done to varied from ship to ship.
from http://www.gwpda.org/naval/s1200000.htm
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/FrenchTB1913.png)
Maori-built version, at 3 pixels per meter.
My yards are, BTW, available for hire at $2 per BP. ^_^
The CSA's shipyards are already grumbling about all the metric to imperial conversions they are having to do...
Here's the CSA's version.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm18/mmichael453/frenchleopard.png)
I tried to make it distinctly french, without making it too ugly. ;)
Guinnes, You're spot on.
Valles.
Can you build me 5 before HY 02 1914?
I don't yet have 1912 engines...
But if you can deliver the turbines needed for them, then I'll have them ready for you by Christmas of 1913.
If the UNK is willing, those Turbines are in the holds of freighters in no time.