www.navalism.org

Main Archive => Navalism 3 Armed Forces => Armed Forces => New Ship Designs => Topic started by: khymerion on July 15, 2008, 12:36:34 AM

Title: A design study by the DKB
Post by: khymerion on July 15, 2008, 12:36:34 AM
SMS Traumziel, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1913

Displacement:
   27,669 t light; 29,377 t standard; 30,991 t normal; 32,282 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   746.84 ft / 728.00 ft x 101.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
   227.64 m / 221.89 m x 30.78 m  x 9.75 m

Armament:
      8 - 13.80" / 351 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,314.04lbs / 596.04kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      26 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      24 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,674 lbs / 5,749 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   12.06 ft / 3.68 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   254.78 ft / 77.66 m   12.06 ft / 3.68 m
   Upper:   9.00" / 229 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   28.44 ft / 8.67 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm         -               -
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.75" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,082 shp / 59,741 Kw = 26.81 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,904 tons

Complement:
   1,167 - 1,518

Cost:
   £2.987 million / $11.950 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,584 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 10,438 tons, 33.7 %
      - Belts: 4,108 tons, 13.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 996 tons, 3.2 %
      - Armament: 2,734 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,408 tons, 7.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 191 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 3,138 tons, 10.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,134 tons, 39.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,322 tons, 10.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,080 lbs / 18,180 Kg = 30.5 x 13.8 " / 351 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 17.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.33

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.461
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.21 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.98 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.68 ft / 9.05 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Stern:      18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.75 ft / 6.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 47,332 Square feet or 4,397 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 887 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.30
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Fire Control - 250 tons
Marconi - 25 tons
Flag Accomodations - 25 tons
VIP Accomodations - 25 tons
Climitasation - 10 tons
Reserve for cargo - 40 tons

Pushing the very limits of DKB industry, the proposal for the SMS Traumziel (Dream Destination) would give the DKB a heavier combatant to the smaller Moltke and Scharnhorst class BC.  Time will tell if enough material can be scraped up to begin work on the class.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: P3D on July 15, 2008, 12:38:39 AM
Welcome back...
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: khymerion on July 15, 2008, 12:42:25 AM
Thank you.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Borys on July 15, 2008, 12:49:06 AM
Ahoj!
I've already wellcomed you back by PM :)

Quite good, for a tin-clad :)

I'd swap the ticknesses of turret face and barbette. Like P3D once pointed out to me, the barbette is round, and thus sots can ricochette off. You can sail at angles to the enemy, and thus avoid perpendicular hts on the belt. But the turret faces are exposed to perpendicular hits, and thus deserve the extra inch or two.
Borys
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Korpen on July 15, 2008, 02:06:16 AM
First: Welcome back.
QuoteSMS Traumziel, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1913
Right, were to begin? ;)
Think the engine year should be 1912...

Quote227.64 m / 221.89 m x 30.78 m  x 9.75 m
   Block coefficient: 0.461
Would suggest cutting her length to 220m so she can use tupe 3 dock, as outlined she would need a type 4. Considering her very low BC, it would probably be a good idea to reduce beam, and possibly draft as well. This should save quite allot of weight.

Quote
16  150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
8  127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model
Apart from the DKB having no 127mm guns in service; what is the point of using both 15cm and 12,7cm guns? The capabillities they bring are after all very similar.

Quote
26 - 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1913 Model
24 - 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
What is the thought behind this huge number of peashooters? They need huge numbers of crew, but bring nothing to the combat capabillity of the ship.

Quote- Armour deck: 2.75" / 70 mm
Just curious: what kind of layout of the deck armour is intended, single deck, or split in two (top of belt and waterline)?
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Jefgte on July 15, 2008, 03:28:21 AM
Welcome back Khymerion

I agree globaly with Korpen

Just the lenght...219m max for a 220m dock.

You could adjust the displacement with the draught in mm
27669t for 9.75m
27600t for 9.73862m


Jef  ;)
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Korpen on July 15, 2008, 04:20:44 AM
Quote from: Jefgte on July 15, 2008, 03:28:21 AM
Just the lenght...219m max for a 220m dock.
Incorrect.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Jefgte on July 15, 2008, 05:16:32 AM
Incorrect...

Why ?
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: maddox on July 15, 2008, 05:51:29 AM
A 220m drydock/slipway can accomodate a ship with 220m waterline length, but has troubles with ships with an overall length longer than 220.

I know several reasons and tricks irl that can tweak those lengths. But for the Nverse, that's the rule.

It's one of the reasons all the build French vessels have a rambow.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Borys on July 15, 2008, 06:05:36 AM
In Scotland there is a drydock which has a notch in the landside wall to accomodate the HMS Hood.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Jefgte on July 15, 2008, 06:16:38 AM
I was speaking about OA lenght.

219m -

50cm each ends - Thanks for workers at stem & stern, riveting -welding later - painting...

(219.6m  is always good, but short)


Jef
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Sachmle on July 15, 2008, 06:22:43 AM
Lets just say for the sake of argument that all slips/docks are 1m longer then max ship size, so a type 3 is 221m long, but can only fit a 220m ship. OK  ;)
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Jefgte on July 15, 2008, 07:04:23 AM
Sorry Sachmle

Dims are for Docks not for Ships

extract from rules
------------------------------
"FLOATING DRYDOCKS

They are only capable of repairing ships. Cheaper but they also cost the same amount of BP as $.

Type 0, Dry-dock 70 meters/230 feet, cost $3
Type 1, Dry-dock 120 meters/393 feet, cost $6
Type 2, Dry-dock 170 meters/557 feet, cost $9
Type 3, Dry-dock 220 meters/721 feet, cost $12
Type 4, Dry-dock 270 meters/885 feet, cost $16
Type 5, Dry-dock 320 meters/1049 feet, cost $20
"
--------------------------------------------------

For Dock 721' = 219.76m is not 221m for Ships

That is not difficult to adjust the oa lenght from 221 to 219.4...   :D  :D  :D


Jef  ;)
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: khymerion on July 15, 2008, 08:29:48 AM
Hmmmm...  okay... note to self... do not put an angled forwards bow on a warship with an overhang on the stern...  it artificially lengthens the ship to cause problems.  I thought I was doing it right but I will properly fix things like this in the future... gotta remember, waterline length does not equate to total length...   I messed up and it will be corrected in the future...  remember, its been awhile.

But I corrected the length...  so here goes try two
SMS Traumziel, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1913

Displacement:
   27,293 t light; 28,972 t standard; 30,568 t normal; 31,844 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   737.84 ft / 719.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
   224.89 m / 219.15 m x 30.48 m  x 9.75 m

Armament:
      8 - 13.80" / 351 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,314.04lbs / 596.04kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      26 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      24 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,457 lbs / 5,650 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   12.06 ft / 3.68 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   245.78 ft / 74.91 m   12.06 ft / 3.68 m
   Upper:   9.00" / 229 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   28.44 ft / 8.67 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm         -               -
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.75" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,818 shp / 59,544 Kw = 26.81 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,872 tons

Complement:
   1,155 - 1,502

Cost:
   £2.947 million / $11.787 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,557 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 10,348 tons, 33.9 %
      - Belts: 4,084 tons, 13.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 996 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armament: 2,715 tons, 8.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,363 tons, 7.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 190 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 3,128 tons, 10.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,885 tons, 38.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,275 tons, 10.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,041 lbs / 17,709 Kg = 29.7 x 13.8 " / 351 mm shells or 6.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.465
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.19 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.68 ft / 9.05 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Stern:      18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.75 ft / 6.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 46,442 Square feet or 4,315 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 181 lbs/sq ft or 882 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.32
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Fire Control - 250 tons
Marconi - 25 tons
Flag Accomodations - 25 tons
VIP Accomodations - 25 tons
Climitasation - 10 tons
Reserve for cargo - 40 tons

Now, the large number of small guns is namely because I detest the idea of not having a smaller weapon option when doing privateering work or armed interdiction.  What good is a prize if it is sunk by 1 or 2 heavy rounds.  I also enjoy having a number of lesser guns, I know that in the long run, they are all going to get plated over... but for now... it lends to a majestic appearance.  As for the 127mm guns, it was a move that I forgot wasn't in regular service so moving to a 105mm to be in better line with established DKB ships is in the end a better idea... thanks to those pointing that out.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Valles on July 15, 2008, 09:30:55 AM
Fast, well-armed, good range and good handling. Go for it, sir! ^_^
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Korpen on July 15, 2008, 09:46:18 AM
Quote from: Jefgte on July 15, 2008, 07:04:23 AM
Sorry Sachmle

Dims are for Docks not for Ships
Still does not say if it is the lenght of the dock or lenght of the ships the dock can acomendate. :P
As we so far have used the later interpetation i would say that that is the correct one.
So here is no need to shorthen the ship by as much as a mm if it is 220m long.


Quote from: khymerion on July 15, 2008, 08:29:48 AM
Now, the large number of small guns is namely because I detest the idea of not having a smaller weapon option when doing privateering work or armed interdiction.  What good is a prize if it is sunk by 1 or 2 heavy rounds. 
First, this ship can never do privateering work as it is a national ship and not a private vessel.
Second: Do you expect opposed boardings?????? If  merchantman do not surrender to a BB they are so self-destuctive that they would blow up their ship in case of capture in any way.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Jefgte on July 15, 2008, 04:25:54 PM
About the lenghts, Docks & Ships,
made the right choice Khymerion

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=86.0



Jef ;)
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: khymerion on July 17, 2008, 10:23:53 AM
And now for a much lighter, sleeker, faster ship...  this time with more standardized weapons than the monster beast before in line with established naval armaments...  Oh, and it is meant to run away from all that out gun her...  thus more stern turrets than fore.  The Battleline is not for her.  The pacific  and indian oceans are too wide for European style battle lines.



SMS Ritterlich, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Surface Raider laid down 1913

Displacement:
   14,538 t light; 15,217 t standard; 16,162 t normal; 16,919 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   572.08 ft / 555.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   174.37 m / 169.16 m x 22.86 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.68kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,227 lbs / 2,825 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   460.75 ft / 140.44 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm     94.23 ft / 28.72 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Upper:   3.00" / 76 mm   460.75 ft / 140.44 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 128 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   460.75 ft / 140.44 m   24.09 ft / 7.34 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,892 shp / 59,600 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,702 tons

Complement:
   716 - 931

Cost:
   £1.746 million / $6.986 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 778 tons, 4.8 %
   Armour: 4,550 tons, 28.2 %
      - Belts: 1,903 tons, 11.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 411 tons, 2.5 %
      - Armament: 1,141 tons, 7.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 985 tons, 6.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 110 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 3,131 tons, 19.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,055 tons, 37.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,625 tons, 10.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 0.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,561 lbs / 6,605 Kg = 16.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.91

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.453
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.40 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.91 ft / 7.90 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.49 ft / 5.03 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.49 ft / 5.03 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.49 ft / 5.03 m
      - Stern:      16.49 ft / 5.03 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.24 ft / 5.26 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 135.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,617 Square feet or 2,473 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 713 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.74
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Sachmle on July 17, 2008, 10:37:31 AM
On her weight and beam a TDS is at best ineffective, and is most likely the cause of your
QuoteMain belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
issue. I'd ditch it.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: khymerion on July 17, 2008, 10:42:37 AM
One moment it seems to work...  the next...  *starts scribbling again*  Oh well...  just means to keep playing with it till it either turns into a giant tuna fish or actually starts to work.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Desertfox on July 17, 2008, 10:47:36 AM
A pocket Scharnhorts...

QuotePoor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
means that she might be able to run away in good weather, but in bad weather she is a sitting duck.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: The Rock Doctor on July 17, 2008, 10:55:26 AM
Easy enough: 

Delete TBS --> Lets you reduce extent of main belt --> Lets you increase freeboard.

To be fair, a giant tuna might freak out any would-be enemies as well.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Sachmle on July 17, 2008, 11:01:33 AM
Weren't there "Tuna" cruisers in the last war, and "Cod"s?
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: khymerion on July 17, 2008, 11:31:36 AM
Now no longer thin and sleek... now fat by 20' but should be better...  the 'tuna cruiser' *sigh*  So much for narrow and elegant... heh... handles better now though while making the speed goal!

SMS Ritterlich, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Surface Raider laid down 1913

Displacement:
   14,898 t light; 15,621 t standard; 16,595 t normal; 17,374 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   576.39 ft / 555.00 ft x 95.00 ft x 34.00 ft (normal load)
   175.68 m / 169.16 m x 28.96 m  x 10.36 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,227 lbs / 2,825 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   352.75 ft / 107.52 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm   202.23 ft / 61.64 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Upper:   2.00" / 51 mm   352.75 ft / 107.52 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78,319 shp / 58,426 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,753 tons

Complement:
   730 - 950

Cost:
   £1.751 million / $7.003 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 778 tons, 4.7 %
   Armour: 3,375 tons, 20.3 %
      - Belts: 1,505 tons, 9.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,157 tons, 7.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 600 tons, 3.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 112 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 3,069 tons, 18.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,400 tons, 44.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,697 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 275 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,254 lbs / 7,826 Kg = 19.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.32
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.324
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.84 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      33.00 ft / 10.06 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.28 ft / 5.57 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,454 Square feet or 3,015 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 794 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.69
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Marconi - 25 tons
Fire Control - 250 tons
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: P3D on July 17, 2008, 12:34:31 PM
- engine year should be 1912
- the clipper bow won't fit in a lvl 2 dock
- block coefficient is way below acceptable
- armored deck is too thin
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Borys on July 17, 2008, 12:51:30 PM
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   15 478 t light; 16 100 t standard; 17 110 t normal; 17 918 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   560,00 ft / 560,00 ft x 90,00 ft x 26,00 ft (normal load)
   170,69 m / 170,69 m x 27,43 m  x 7,92 m

Armament:
      8 - 9,45" / 240 mm guns (4x2 guns), 421,95lbs / 191,40kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      10 - 5,90" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102,69lbs / 46,58kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 4 403 lbs / 1 997 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   340,00 ft / 103,63 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   220,00 ft / 67,06 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   364,00 ft / 110,95 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
     Main Belt covers 93% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 84 622 shp / 63 128 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 9 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 818 tons

Complement:
   747 - 972

Cost:
   £1,611 million / $6,442 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 550 tons, 3,2%
   Armour: 4 478 tons, 26,2%
      - Belts: 2 134 tons, 12,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1 034 tons, 6,0%
      - Armour Deck: 1 196 tons, 7,0%
      - Conning Tower: 114 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 3 374 tons, 19,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 725 tons, 39,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 632 tons, 9,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21 412 lbs / 9 712 Kg = 50,7 x 9,5 " / 240 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,1 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 16,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,457
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   26,00 ft / 7,92 m
      - Mid (50%):      26,00 ft / 7,92 m (18,00 ft / 5,49 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,32 ft / 6,80 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178,9%
   Waterplane Area: 32 335 Square feet or 3 004 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 700 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,99
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Borys on July 17, 2008, 12:53:07 PM
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   16 499 t light; 17 256 t standard; 18 308 t normal; 19 150 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   560,00 ft / 560,00 ft x 90,00 ft x 26,00 ft (normal load)
   170,69 m / 170,69 m x 27,43 m  x 7,92 m

Armament:
      6 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864,00lbs / 391,90kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      10 - 5,90" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102,69lbs / 46,58kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 6 211 lbs / 2 817 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   360,00 ft / 109,73 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   200,00 ft / 60,96 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   364,00 ft / 110,95 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
     Main Belt covers 99% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 89 847 shp / 67 026 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 9 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 894 tons

Complement:
   786 - 1 023

Cost:
   £1,889 million / $7,554 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 776 tons, 4,2%
   Armour: 4 476 tons, 24,4%
      - Belts: 2 150 tons, 11,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 976 tons, 5,3%
      - Armour Deck: 1 230 tons, 6,7%
      - Conning Tower: 120 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 3 582 tons, 19,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 315 tons, 40,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 809 tons, 9,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20 777 lbs / 9 424 Kg = 24,0 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,1 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 16,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,489
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   26,00 ft / 7,92 m
      - Mid (50%):      26,00 ft / 7,92 m (18,00 ft / 5,49 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,32 ft / 6,80 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 174,8%
   Waterplane Area: 33 248 Square feet or 3 089 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 152 lbs/sq ft or 743 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,03
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: P3D on July 17, 2008, 12:56:24 PM
Borys, stop copying my cruisers! >:(
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Borys on July 17, 2008, 01:00:25 PM
Ahoj!
I was trying to salvage something from Khymerion's designs.
It must be that Great Minds think alike ... given certain dimensions, tonnage and weapons, it is not surprising that I emulated your designs ...

Borys
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: maddox on July 17, 2008, 03:36:41 PM
Quote from: P3D on July 17, 2008, 12:34:31 PM
- engine year should be 1912
Or 1916 if next level is already reached. 1912 for now.
Quote- the clipper bow won't fit in a lvl 2 dock
Easely solved by another bowform.
Quote- block coefficient is way below acceptable
Correct, SSII starts to have issues below .38. And .38 is the hullform of a raching yacht, not an all out BC.
Quote- armored deck is too thin
If it fits the needs, and the politicians allow it, even an unarmored deck is plausible. On the other hand, 1" is thin on a modern 16Ktons ship, and the ship builders of Brandenburg know that.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: khymerion on July 17, 2008, 03:43:26 PM
So the clipper bow all together is not available nor is an overhang on the fantail?  I thought the argument earlier was making the waterline length too much for the dock dimensions.  I... will start working on the next incarnation.  I just thought that was an idea bow form for driving through waves at fast speeds.


As for the Block Coefficient, the program didn't send any major warnings my direction about it being so low... again my fault.  As was the thinning of the armored deck.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: maddox on July 17, 2008, 03:46:22 PM
SS doesn't aknowledge the problems with "too low Block coefficient", so no warning there.


And the total length - OA- is what the dimensions of the docks can allow to be build.  Just gametechnical, not based on IRL effects.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: khymerion on July 17, 2008, 04:37:59 PM
No longer a tuna cruiser... now she is starting to resemble a scary CA than a short Moltke...  but hey, I like the project title

SMS Ritterlich, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Surface Raider laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   13,281 t light; 13,917 t standard; 15,189 t normal; 16,207 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   554.39 ft / 537.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
   168.98 m / 163.68 m x 22.86 m  x 10.06 m

Armament:
      6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (3x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,846 lbs / 2,198 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   342.75 ft / 104.47 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm   194.23 ft / 59.20 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Upper:   2.00" / 51 mm   342.75 ft / 104.47 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 66,579 shp / 49,668 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 11.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,290 tons

Complement:
   683 - 889

Cost:
   £1.468 million / $5.870 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 606 tons, 4.0 %
   Armour: 3,571 tons, 23.5 %
      - Belts: 1,320 tons, 8.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 999 tons, 6.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,147 tons, 7.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,655 tons, 17.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,049 tons, 39.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,909 tons, 12.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,154 lbs / 7,781 Kg = 25.6 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
   Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 17.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.43

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.16 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      33.00 ft / 10.06 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Stern:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.88 ft / 6.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,792 Square feet or 2,303 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 692 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 3.01
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Fire Control - 250 tons
Marconi - 25 tons
Unspecified tonnage at this time - 225 tons
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: khymerion on July 17, 2008, 05:48:38 PM
And in her final study design incarnation...  finally at an even tonnage number, after cutting through enough red tap with the contractors and a ship the builders say will fit the docks...  project 'Tuna Cruiser'...  now with marine raider platoon for fun and profit!

SMS Ritterlich, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Surface Raider laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   14,000 t light; 14,770 t standard; 16,081 t normal; 17,129 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 540.35 ft x 76.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 164.70 m x 23.16 m  x 10.06 m

Armament:
      9 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (3x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,595 lbs / 2,992 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   370.35 ft / 112.88 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm   170.00 ft / 51.82 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Upper:   2.00" / 51 mm   342.75 ft / 104.47 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 69,273 shp / 51,677 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 11.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,359 tons

Complement:
   713 - 928

Cost:
   £1.712 million / $6.847 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 824 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 3,393 tons, 21.1 %
      - Belts: 1,368 tons, 8.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 972 tons, 6.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 944 tons, 5.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 110 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,762 tons, 17.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,670 tons, 41.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,081 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,583 lbs / 7,068 Kg = 23.3 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.00
   Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 17.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.415
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      33.00 ft / 10.06 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.04 ft / 6.41 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,521 Square feet or 2,371 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 763 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.77
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Fire Control - 250 tons
Marconi - 25 tons
Raider Infantry Platoon (3 Squads of 16 soldiers each at 1.56 tons a peice) - 75 tons
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Jefgte on July 17, 2008, 06:27:55 PM
A very good balanced ship

Perfect to do BC job

Great range is a plus.


but, an expensive raider...



Jef  ;)

Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: P3D on July 17, 2008, 08:53:46 PM
The DKB already has very similar ships, 3 guns less, with 50% more armor. You might have missed them. See post #32:

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=892.30


More criticism:

BC still too low, draught is excessive. Most destroyers are over 0.415, and 33' draught (35' at full displacement) won't be able to get into some DKB harbors. 14,000t should be ~25' draught. While SS2 does not scream, historical designs present some guidelines.

The main belt is too narrow, full ship sitting 4' deeper than a light one. Add waves (generated by wind or sailing at 28kts) and the ship might blow up from a 6" shell hitting the magazine below the belt. Or the top of the belt is below water at full displacement.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: khymerion on July 18, 2008, 08:16:25 AM
While I would love to agree whole heartedly with the statements made about the Ritterlich, there are a few problems I had in making her.  I would love to have used exclusively the Moltke as I did see her and her phenomenal performance... and the fact that 4 have been laid down and work started on them.  But the great problem came up with the fact that I was limited in the number of available slips to produce them internally and in need of ships buildable in the next dock size down... which there are plenty of but lacking the ships that would be able to keep speed with the 28 knot Moltke.  Thus Ritterlich came to bear.  If I wanted to use a Type 3 dock to produce a ship that was outclassing the size of the Type 2 by only a small margin, it seemed to be a waste of space... especially if there is nearly 100+ feet of empty slip that could be used.


I understand Moltke is a superior ship in most regards... it is the practicality of having slip space to build with that is now in question.

Also, I understand that the draught is excessive but it isn't too excessive.  Some sacrifices had to be made to make it actually attain the speeds desired.  Battle Wagons don't go much deeper and true, she won't make it into some of the smaller DKB ports... but then again, neither would some of the older heavier ships... or ships that are to come.  The Main Belt problem can be remedied. 

But as for the Block Coefficient, true... historically things progressed a certain way because that is what was accepted.  Attitudes came and people followed suit.  I used history as a guideline...  but I am not looking to directly copy any one design.   I have to use the technology available to me to get the most desired results.  I am sure if I had a bit of A or a bit of B, I might be able to do better... or if I wait a few years... which I might not have to wait for...  something better will come along... but this, is what works...  I am sorry if it is a bit more smooth and less blocky than what was traditionally accepted across the world...

but then again, I like racing ships.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: The Rock Doctor on July 18, 2008, 08:40:03 AM
Actually, there are only three Moltkes underway (2 domestic, 1 in UNK), and they require ~11 months in the slipways.  The two domestic models will have been launched in late May of 1912, leaving the two big slipways available for new construction after that. 
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Jefgte on July 18, 2008, 08:51:55 AM
After fine examen, I agree globaly with Khym

You want too much on a 170m - 14000t hull

9x280 - 7" belt & 28kts

---------------------------------------
If you want 28kts, reduce armament &/or protection
----------------------------------------
If you want 9x280, reduce speed &/or armour



Jef  ;)
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: P3D on July 18, 2008, 01:36:58 PM
I'd note that the deep draught already reduced the stability to marginal (=1.00). The first high wave (or half the crew lining up on portside) would turn the ship over.
Title: Re: A design study by the DKB
Post by: Korpen on July 18, 2008, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: P3D on July 18, 2008, 01:36:58 PM
I'd note that the deep draught already reduced the stability to marginal (=1.00). The first high wave (or half the crew lining up on portside) would turn the ship over.
I agree that the lack of a stabillity reserve is a problem, but it is not as bad as that. After all the ship is not unstable as is. But i would not like to aboard her if she takes on water...