1905
This was a year of unrest, upheaval and undoing. As if the death throes of the Dark Ones in El Dorado had sent waves of Evil onto the world, poisoning the hearts of man.
In Russia first the current Tsar, Michail II, went mad, with a religious bent. He joined the Skoptsy heretical sect. And was immediately locked up in monastery by the Grand Dukes Vladimir and Kiril, his father's brothers. Who then in turn tore the country apart. Feeling his position versus Vladimir weakening, Kiril drew upon the ungrateful rebellious Polish and Jewish rabble of the Western provinces, and the Black Sea Fleet of which he had once been commander. Vladimir's attempts to bring together an army strong enough to subdue this rebellion were sabotaged by factions adhering to the ,,let the scum go" idea. In their eyes a Russia freed of Poles, Jews and Little Russians would become the Holy Russia worthy of the mantle of the Third Rome.
In the USA the Pacific coast areas, cut off by the almost impassable Andes and the awful seas of the Southern Passages turned its back on the Argentinean part of the country. And immediately disintegrated. The middle of the inhabited part, populated by the freshly conquered Mapuche, called upon the Riddermark to extend protection to them, to the Realm of Araucania. The Spanish speaking north of the country – better dead than Peruvian! – called upon the DKB for protection. The island of Chiloe (south of the populated part) petitioned the newly emerging Iberian Empire for protection.
The Iberian Peninsula continued to be in turmoil. Disenchanted by economic incompetence of ,,communism" rioting – growing into rebellion – tore across the PESN. Quite naturally they looked over the border – to Aragon-Navarra - for help. In Portugal, on the other hand, republican leanings had been drowned in blood of the 1903 rebellion, quelled by foreign intervention. However, the incompetence and weakness of the current king, which cost the country its Ultramar, its cherished Overseas Empire, made those unhappy with the situation turn to a different monarchical solution – to Carlos VIIth of Aragon. To the maternal Grandson of John IVth of Portugal. The local Ultramontanes in a palace coup deposed of the current dynasty, the Braganzas, and called in the Bourbons from Aragon-Navarra.
However, the Portugues demanded to be immediately given a Vice-Rey without any "Castillian taint", Sisto de Borbon-Parma - the most likely successor to the childless Carlista branch of the Bourbons. An added benefit was that Sisto was a maternal grandson of another Portugues king, Miguel I. To make him become heir apparent of the House of Borbon-Parma, as to accommodate the Portuguese demand, all Sisto's older step-brothers were declared imbeciles – even though in most cases this was the truth, this Assault upon Family was yet another sign of the End Times.
The Brazilian rebels – generally left alone by the Austrian Crusaders if they did not molest Habsburg troops, and freed from the Anahuac by these very same Crusaders, organised themselves and asked Carlos of Aragon, now Carlos of Iberia, to rule over them.
A large part of French troops stationed in Africa which had been selected to bring Brazil to heel had been laid low by the Zulu Killer Flu, preventing their move across the Atlantic. Thus Glorious France thus decided to hang on to Africa, letting Brazil go. ,,Better Bourbon than Habsburg, French, not some Krauts", some high ranking French officials were heard to say before being posted to unfashionable locations.
In the Norman Kingdom of Great Britain the social conflicts, inherent to a capitalist society reaching the pinnacle of its evolution, the stage of imperialism, exploded in a revolution of the working masses. Emulating the murderous degenerates of the French Revolution of over a hundred years before, the Fabian cut-throats murdered the Royal Family and all members of Higher Orders they could lay their gore streaked paws on, be it man, woman or innocent child. In Ireland and parts of Wales and Scotland this orgy of hatred and bloodshed was further fuelled by nationalist resentment. The slaughter of the Royal Family made the distant cousin to Roger VIIth, Michael II of the American Normans (exiled for six generations), the Heir Apparent. Mobilising all of his meagre land forces, the forces of the American based claimant crossed the Atlantic and landed in the land of his Forefathers on the Glorious 1st of June. All those yearning for the return of Law and Order flocked to the forces flying the flag of Saint George, against the unholy hordes of socialism. Amidst much bloodshed the troublemakers were suppressed. Sensing their doom, the subversives spent the last days of their lives wrecking as much destruction on industry as possible – drowning prisoners in coal mines being a favourite. Truly influenced by the Evil Ones!
By the end of the year the new King, Michael I of the United Norman Kingdom had pacified the island of Britain. Ireland was claimed by a group of rebels who – out of spite to the Rightful Monarch – were given speedy international recognition by several powers, prominently France. The Baltic League and the Kingdom of the Netherlands, verbally expressing satisfaction at the return of Legitimate Government to Britain, at the same time in secret made certain demands to which Michael, as not to endanger the sea lanes to his regained fatherland, had to agree.
In the DKB the Kronprinz, accustomed to rule during his Father's forced stay in Europe, and now with too little to do, lead an aborted palace coup. After holding his Father-Emperor - Wilheln II - prisoner for 24 hours, he surrendered to the Marine-Infanterie Abteilung sent by Grossadmiral Letters and led by Korvettenkapitan Borholt.
The turmoil associated with this aborted putsch was used by the Zionists in Ugandaland, also known as Ober Kenya, to declare independence – a move which quickly gained international acclaim from coreligionists and socialists. Incredibly, the tradition mocking Zionists found truck with the traditionalist Abbissynians.
The German translation of the ,,Protocols of Elders of Zion" made four reprints in the autumn of this year, and large quantities of smuggled copies in the Swiss dialect sold briskly on the black market.
When Russia was rent by the Vladimir-Kiril feud, the popular commander of the Far Eastern Fleet - Admiral Ivan Timofieyivic Susasin did not ally itself to either faction. This was in stark contrast to the Black Sea (Vladimir) and Baltic (Kiril) Fleets. His caution was in large part due that the Navy officers supporting Kiril - the pretender who was more likely to gain control of the Far East, were strongly inomical to him, and he suspected a firing squad no matter which pretender he backed.
Across the sea to the East, in the Japanese Islands, Corruption by the Evil Ones was well in evidence, with the fighting between Brownshirt faction escalating to use of rifles, with any central authority dissapearing by mid year.
Over the summer of 1905, the situation of the Far Eastern Fleet deteriorated - with no money coming from Sankt Peterburg, the previously disciplined crews started to show unrest. Across the MK border, slanted eyes watched both Port Artur and the Japanese Islands carefully, like a bird of prey reading to strike ...
Some 80 years ago, when the New Swiss were enslaving the indigenous population of the Japanese Islands, several families of tribal chieftain fled across the sea to Korea. Eventually they made their way to Peking, where they were treated as a quaint exotic oddity. When the newness wore off, they were shoved off to the North, given a task of bringing back wayward tribes in Manchuria back to tribute paying ways. Unexpectedly, they succeeded. Since then they had been the Emperor's Enforcers and Tax Collectors in the North. They exhorted money from the Macnhurian tribes like a wise shepherd fleeces his flock – leaving it just enough for the beasts to be contented. They were left to rule as they pleased as long as Peking got the tribute it demanded. The Exiles lead frugal lives, bound by rituals and blood curdling vows. All they took from the tribes above the tribute was exchanged for silver teal bars, and stored away for the Day. The Day when they will be able to lay claim to what Ametarasu had gifted them, the Nipponese – the Land of the Rising Sun. And what they saw in Liaotung, what they saw happening in Nippon in the summer of 1905 told them that the Day had come.
A man understood to be a high level MK official approached Admiral Ivan Susasin, offering a veritable mountain of silver.
The terms?
The Far Eastern Fleet, taking the Corps garrisoning Port Arthur with it, sails to the Japanese Islands, under the Hinomaru - the Red Rising Sun banner. Where they will become the fleet of the new Japanese Empire. Their families will be safe in Liaotung, which will be joined to the Exile's Manchu holdings. Port Artur itself, however, will be handed over to the MK – the price for its benevolent neutrality. Those not wishing to join the Far East Prosperity Sphere would be delivered to the nearest Russian holding.
The now well paid fleet – happy and disciplined again – efficiently transported the ex-Vth Siberian Rifle Corps to the Japanese main islands. They established bridgeheads to which a Corps of exiles was also brought over from Manchuria. Over the course of several weeks the islands were made secure for the Exile's rule.
However, a backlash of the White population could be expected. For this contingency the new rulers had an answer – they had cultivated contacts with General Praeger since the time he had proven hsmelf as overlord of Korea. This Swiss had made a mark for himself as "gook-friendly", a term of derision used by some other Whites. His rule in Korea had been fair and able. So Praeger was offered the post of Prinzregent. His leading role should pacify the Whites, whilst the Exiles, with major say in the government, could bid their time – they were BACK! That made half a generation's worth of waiting for total power irrelevant.
The guns of the new Nipponese fleet plus more of Exiles' silver brought over Russian Far Eastern outposts – likewise cut from supplies and money from the Motherland, these were quite eager to join the newly emergening state. Only in Khabarovsk did the commander turn his guns – the few and old they were – on the fleet delivering the "join us" notice. Not risking the precious ships, the fleet sailed away. Honouring the agreement of non-coercion, in the autumn several ships brought all Russians not wishing to change allegiance to within cannon shot distance of that last Russian possession.
In Tyrol the deposed Emperor Maximilian, his mind poisoned by emanations from across the globe, succumbed to pride and abandoned the monastery where he had been placed after the putsch by the new kaiser. Appealing to the ever-loyal Tyrolean's, he raised the banner of rebellion against the Usurper Stefan. For Faith and Tradition! was the rallying cry. Jumping upon the opportunity, the Hungarian aristocracy (some Orange inspiration cannot be ruled out),
called up an Insurrection against the Habsburgs. Their agenda was to preserve
their traditional privileges, threatened by Stefanian reforms, just like their forbearers had revolted against Josephinian reform in the XVIIIth century.
Stefan had no stomach to spill the blood of those who – in some madness – had misdirected their Habsburg loyalties. He just cordoned off Tyrol. He had all the intentions in the world to drown the Hungarian Insurrection in blood, but he simply had no strength for it - some of the best troops were in Brazil, the Tyroleans were in revolt, there was unrest in the Northern provinces - Prag, Krakau, Lemberg. He bowed to the one solution short of Realm-shattering Civil War – he sat down to a deal – an Ausgleich – with the smug Hungarians, with Kiraly at the fore of the delegation. Was Orange behind all this? Ottomans? France – if yes, than it had exploded in their faces, he thought grimly.
It really pained him to sign away almost half of the crown lands into Budapest's grasp. But he used the crisis as pretext to break up Galicia into west and east. As the pretender Kiril had appealed to the Poles for help, promising them wide fredoms, the Habsburgs also had to make some sort of gesture towards their Polish subjects. For the time being renaming West Galizien to Kleinerpolen - Little Poland apparently being the local name for those lands - had to to. After all, the name Poland had been repressed for the last 75 years. His hands tied, he could not even send troops in support of his father-in-law's (Kaisering Yelena was Vladimir's daughter) struggle for the throne of All-Russia. All he could do was offer transport to all Russian subjects or units crossing the border into his lands to area under Grand Duke's Vladimir's control.
Maximilian, too strong to be removed from the mountings, yet too weak to retake Vienna himself, blinded by Pride and out of spite towards Stefan, decided to throw in his lot with the Bavarian Wittelsbachs, the family of his beloved Empress Sissi. But before he could return to his cell-like office in Innsbruck, he had some scores to settle in the south ...
Meanwhile the Tyrolean events boiled over into French Switzerland. The locals, subject to two mobilisations in two subsequent years, combined with the burden of several corps brought in for Alpine eye-balling games, rose in revolt. And after being given two refreshing courses over two years, the local reservists were very well trained indeed. ,,Welsche raus!" rang from the Alps to the Main, from the Rhine to the Vosges. Everywhere the hated French rule was overthrown. Never above pouncing upon an opportunity to extend their holdings, the Bavarians threw any caution to the wind and did not let any vacuum form, nor gave the French time to react to this wave of Schwabian discontent with Gallic rule.
The French reeled under this unexpected blow, and retired beyond the Vogesen and Jura. The crème de la crème of their army was still around El Dorado in Brazil. Bringing them back took several weeks. Colonial units in Africa had been cut low by the Zulu Killer Flu, and some units had been posted from the Metropole in an emergency move to prop up French rule. And n top of this, across the La Manche, the British Revolution was in full swing. The pendulum was shifting to the Counter-Revolution, in fact. It was all very nice for Order to be restored, but did the restoration have to involve half a dozen American-Norman battleship 50 miles of Cherbourg? And 100,000 troops sitting in transports just beyond the horizon at Le Havre? The Dutch put their forces on alert – will they move to steal the Lower Rhine holdings? Or Lorraine? And why was the Baltic League making a demonstration of force in the North Sea? Had Glorious France over-extended its reach, and it was time to pull back to her Natural Frontiers? Sacre bleu, even these had been breached, with Alsace under revolt! And the Italians were running amok as well – will they demand Nice and Savoy back?
In Italy the Dictator-Emperor Guilio Cesare was beset by revolts of the Reds in various cities of the north, intertwined with Sabaudian loyalists. Happily, the two were more often than not fighting one another, not him. But in the south the "country bumpkins", the Paisani rose against him and the ,,freemasons in Rome", led by their landlords and priests. They were demanding their own, Neapolitan, Bourbon, king back. Giulio could bet simply anything that had not Stefan been beset by two revolts and a foreign adventure, the Habsburgers would be streaming into Lombardy already. With the various factions in the north, in Lombardy, cancelling each other out, he directed loyal forces led by his eldest son to the south.
It came as a shock to him, several days later, when news of an invasion from the north reached him at his palace in Rome. Under black banners of revenge, with ,,Revenge Kaiserin Elisabet" and ,,Kill the murderers" as their battle cry, the Tyrolean's descended upon North Italy. Led by the Old Monk-Emperor, Maximilian, they came for those who had killed his beloved wife Sissi. Sweeping across Venetia and Lombardy, holding Mass twice a day, the Tirolers grimly hanged anybody suspected of socialist or anarchist tendencies. This was ony just, as Elisabeth of the Wittelsbachs, the beloved wife of Maximilan and known by her nickname - Sissi - had been assasinated by an Italian anarchist. Massi Vechio (Old Max), the shuffling old fool in myriad Italian jokes, was no more – he was now Vecchio Vendatorre, the Old Avenger, his name whispered in dread.
NO, That doesn't follow.
Also I don't think I can play with that history.
Ahoj!
1 - what do you dislike?
2 - what suggestions do you have to combine the retention of as much as possible of the old setting and storyline, and the new territorial arrangement?
Changes in places not described nor touched upon in previus stories are easy. My idea for the UKA hopping across the Atlantic was this - a kadet branch exiled 150 years ago comes back to reclaim the throne, vacated by a revolution.
What do you suggest?
Borys
No mad commie revolution and return to sanity, a far simpler combining of the Kingdoms with Michael II as the new King, all caused by the death of the King of the Norman English with no heirs
Ahoj!
OK, very well.
And combining two countries - one of which should be international Top 5 member - yet keeping the economy of one - a Top 20 member?
Borys
correct, not much eh, but it gives me the British Mainland
Well now... it seems I am a bit more... out there than I had thought! Demonstrations indeed. All to keep eyes away from the ground.
Ahoj!
The storyline had been played out until end of 1904. I am trying to plug the gap and explain the changes between end of 1904 and the 1/1/1906 restart.
Borys
Well that's just it...some of the old history is not possible in context with what we have on the map, or what the players have in mind for their nations.
China, Japan, and the New Swiss aren't going to be fixed, or really constructive in their existance with this history I don't think. Not enough time in 1905 to get the situation changed that far and yet allow for other problems.
Essentially there are places that can't be fixed within the span of one earth year. Those places will require something along the lines of a retcon to justify their existance, much less the changes to the timeline. Other places don't require much of a leap in logic to say, "okay, so that was really there that whole time and I didn't notice...or care." Southern South America, and the physical changes in North America can be played off as always there easy enough. The USA wasn't dealt with enough to define much their really...some minor changes or political problems get the ports used into disputed hands or Peru's clutches. And in Rohan, I've been using Middle Earth names that whole time anway, so that's not much of a problem.
Russian's implosion might take work, or we just reduce Russia down to a smaller country that claimed larger amounts of real estate without actually "owning" it.
But Asia and the Pacific will be hard to work in with the great changes involved, especially in concern with the Japanese and Swiss, as we've moved the Swiss "Home Islands" out to near the middle of the Ocean, while placing the Japanese back in the picture again. In theory, these cannot be the same place at the same time...so therefore something changed to the point were revisiting the history for those players may be needed and desired.
That particular area should (and may) have been worked out between Desertfox, Pheonix, and Walter, with input from Swamphen and others if needed to settle on a single new history that works relatively smoothly with the existing history up to 1904. Nations may be different, but the results will be more or less the same. When Foxy comes back he'll probably say it won't work, and I'd agree with him. I won't agree to give him back anything he lost in the war, just that he'll need to justify the loss somewhere else so the results are the same...so the leasons his nation would learn from those mistakes will remain intact. With this is the extent of the Japanese Empire and there relations with both Swiss and Chinese. The Ming/Qing Dynasty is also seemingly in flux, and I for one want to see what Pheonix has come up with.
Spain....eh. I don't know about it for sure. It might work, but they'd not be able to get back on their feet within a year due to the destruction of the war, the hatreds, and lose of some many men and farmlands.
Brazil...I'm still not convinced they'd go to Portugal again after all the problems their. I guess it seems to easy, maybe contrived to give Iberia colonies. (plus I know the Mark won't want the Spanish back again...those were a people the Rohirrim could have done without every have met).
Its not that I'm being critical of your work Borys, I'd just rather the players settle their histories themselves within context of what has already passed...bring it up to the rest of the board to see if it works, or have yourself or someone else come up with something (which you have already, saving a step) and see if that works for them all, and then work it out until you come up with something that works for at least the majority if not the whole of those involved....much like the map project.
It wont work. There I said it! :-P
Give me a couple of days and I can explain the Far East mess. Ill gain a few ships but Ill lose the equivalent elsewhere.
As for UKA, Id say just go historical no need for last minute antics. The 13 colonies are set up, no French-Indian War hence no American Revolution, but slaves lead to the independance of the CSA, neat and requires no major rewrite.
I see not why much of China's recent history should be re-written... I must add why Manchuria is not Chinese anymore and how the Ming Dynasty continued to rule and that is not too difficult. I will however not want to change too much of the Middle Kingdom-New Swiss history as it happened in the old sim. Why re-fight old battles ?
Because they could not have happened here. However I will keep losses and battles only changing some participants.
History of the Far East
Rough outline that can be changed, no dates yet, battles in parentheses are the ones we know.
Dispute over Macau leads to NS-MK War
Battles of Hong Kong, Xiamen and Fuzhou, end in Swiss Victory
Battle of 1st Taiwan, draw
Battle of 2nd Taiwan Swiss victory, Battle of Xiamen Chinese victory
NSS Justice blows up in Manila Bay
Preassure from Japan (MK) and Spain/Austria (NS) leads to peace, NS returns Xiamen and Fuzhou keeps Hong Kong
NS declares war on Spain, Battle of Taipei, war with Austria
MK at war with Japan
(NS) Battle of Manila Bay (Yantai), Swiss fleet defeated, fort guarding Manila captured
(MK) Battle of Port Aurthur (Yantai), Japanese fleet defeated, but Port Aurtur captured
Battle of 3rd Taiwan, Swiss victory
Infighting in Phillipines between Swiss backed Filipinos and Austro/Spanish Colonial forces,
Taal eruption, devastation and Political Infighting in NS lead to Cease Fire between combatants
Filipino Rebels control Southern Half of Phillipines, Colonial Force control Luzon and Catadunes.
I am not sure if that entirely makes sense since the Middle Kingdom seemed more than willing to blow Hong Kong off the map rather than let the (evil) Swiss have it. Remember all those rail guns at the beginning of the war? Also the is one more major event...the abduction of the young Emporer. But in general it seems neater than trying to stage a mass of rebellions in three counties that alter the face of Asia inone years time, and then have those powers keep on going like everything is normal.
Personally I'd see the Swiss removed from the continent as Hong Kong was pretty much crippled by the war. My suggestion would be to add an increase in problems with you western Australia friends. This would probably require the Swiss' full attention rather than one treaty port. I'd aslo perfer no returns on losses, but that might be negatiated through other losses that you didn't get in the war. I don't mean your ACM ships as compensation, but either land or other pre-existing Swiss ships, land forces.
Well Hong Kong is a sticky point. I havent seen a way to get around it. And why would NS give up HK when China is being attacked by Japan? Also HK was a sign of defiance and was not lost (Chinese troops gained not an inch in 2 years of fighting) while I was still around. However it was beaten pretty bad by Taal. But I have lost Hainan so I feels its a good trade.
As for the Emperor, I was planning on having his trained captured during a coastal raid by Swiss commandoes, but Phoenix tells me he doesnt travel, and frankly there's no way for Swiss commandoes to get into Beijing from Hong Kong.
As for the ships, the only ship Im ressurecting is Alliance, but in exchange Im scraping the 3 new Colonial Battleships/Armored Cruisers I had built.
Ahoj!
And what is the advantage of rewriting past events over my suggestion, which does not change anything, and has all changes occur in 1905?
Borys
For China and the Swiss, not too much...for Japan, it makes all the difference.
Why? Because its easier to rewrite history (which we lost anyways) and its alot easier to understand it. You dont need crazy revolutions all over the place, and NS never enslaved anybody, in fact I had several natives (Colonel Pranger, Admiral Mikawa) in very important roles.
Also Im totaly revamping my navy, it wont get any bigger or stronger, but the dates will be moved all over the place to make it more logical. And for that the rewrite is critical.
Ahoj!
As there will be naval revamping, you don't need any rewrite.
OK - I will tone down the enslaving bit.
Borys
Primary reasoning is to allow Japan to startup like it has been there the whole time rather than give it leftovers and serious problems from the start with little to go on.
Unlike the END-EK issues in the "poof here I am" style, this is more stable as the players involved in that region are attempting to agree on the backstory that will make Japan "seamlessly" fit into this world. I have no problem believing that it was their at this point in time with the shifting that has happened on the maps. The Swiss "Home Islands" are now not Japan, but that land mass between Hawaii and the Marshall Islands and Japan has "been involved" in the area would make sense that way. That is didn't have much contact with outsides is easy since the Japanese tended to be isolationist anyway if it wasn't in Asia, it didn't matter.
Call it an alternate-Alternate History of Navalism...basically the end product is more or less the same for all those involved and to those more of less uninvolved in Europe, Africa, and the Americas, it shouldn't effect our situations up to 1906 to any great degree (unless you were planning something dastardly in Asia involving either the Chinese or the Swiss, in which case your plans were probably foiled.).
As for your ships Foxy, be careful to to push too far else logic will get more draconian than vulcan.
I wont do anything crazy with the ships. Mostly small changes that will still get me the same end result but without some of the problems I had like excessive draught on my DDs. Some changes for example will have Australia (ex-Goa) and Hawaii be Swiss built (I dont like off center turrents) but Hawaii will still be blasted (only at 3rd Taiwan instead of Hawaii) and will be rebuilt. This will give me a step between the 10" Gun 15kt Alaskas and the 12" gun 24kt Constitutions.
As has been discussed there are some bits that will have to be considered window-dressing. However generally I find it quite interesting...
One thing I'd like to see changed - Uganda wasn't (at least In The Original History(ITOH)) part of the DKB. I was thinking of good relations between the DKB and NZ - although Foul Fears would make for more interesting stories, I admit. 8)
An attempted palace coup? Veddy interestink. You do realise that this makes Eitel Freidrich the Kronprinz...he of the Austrian wife. ;D
QuoteThe Spanish speaking north of the country – to Peruvian! – called upon the DKB for protection.
Oooookay...I guess I can handle that. :)
Ahoj!
I tried to combine Old and New Geography. And failed. Will changing the name to Kenya, or Ober Kenya make it better?
There were cases of Kronprinzes plotting quicker succession, failing, being put into prison but still retaining their Kronprinz status. Ever heard of Friedrich II Koenig von Preussen?
Borys
Nah, you can leave it - with the Recooked World History (= no CofC) it can be assumed that Uganda had been German instead of...er, Cairoivan?
Now all you need to do is to have the Austrian Line of Succession fall upon Princess Ezri. ;D
Ahoj!
Sorry, stricty male succession ... between MY daughter and the throne there are some 15-25 male relatives.
:)
In editing the text I missed out a bit, thus losing clarity:
"The Spanish speaking north of the country – better dead than Peruvian! – called upon the DKB for protection. "
So, your protectorate extends from the Bio-Bio River (more or less city of Conceicao on the coast) to the southern edge of the Atacama Desert.
Borys
"I'm gonna need a bigger fleet."
;D
Updated, has everything that happend, plus a Russo-Japanese War. Only change is the Battle of Yantai has been moved and the combatants changed (from NS vs MK, to NS vs Spain, MK vs Jap) results are the same. Also the Battle of 3rd Taiwan has slightly different combatants (NS replacing OR, more Spanish less Austrians) but again with same result. Japanese-Russo/Sino war helps explain Japanese control over Russian Far East and Manchuria.
Only problem I have is finding a way to have my 100 Spec Ops move hundreds of miles into enemy territory and return with the Emperor. But then again that should improve their prestige, if they can pull that off they can pull anything.
History of the Far East
Dispute over Macau leads to NS-MK War
Battles of Hong Kong, Xiamen and Fuzhou, end in Swiss Victory
Battle of 1st Taiwan, draw
Battle of 2nd Taiwan Swiss victory, Battle of Xiamen Chinese victory
NSS Justice blows up in Manila Bay
Preassure from Japan (MK) and Spain/Austria and Farijistan (NS) leads to "peace"
NS abandons Xiamen, Fuzhou, and Hong Kong, cities put to torch (scortched earth salt and all)
NS declares war on Spain, Battle of Taipei, war with Austria
Japan at war with China and Russia
Battle of Manila Bay (Yantai), Swiss fleet defeated, fort guarding Manila captured
Battle of Port Aurthur (Yantai), Japanese fleet defeated, but Port Aurtur captured
Battle of 3rd Taiwan, Swiss victory
Battle of Tsushima, Japan crushes Russian pacific Fleet, survivors flee to Catadunes
Infighting in Phillipines between Swiss backed Filipinos and Austro/Spanish Colonial forces
Taal eruption, devastation and Political Infighting in NS lead to Cease Fire between combatants
Swiss supplied Filipino Rebels control Southern Half of Phillipines, Colonial Force control Luzon and Catadunes.
Not going to talk about the naval battles.
But as I told in private, your action to abduct the young Middle Kingdom emperor was roleplayed to the bone by an experienced roleplay group. Even if they started with an unreasonable amount of luck and resources, the attricion rate was idioticaly.
Of the 50 NS special forces handpicked for that operation and a gazilion of henchmen only 3 returned.
All 3 of Oriental origin. In other words, your plan was a succes, even if it did cost a lot. Unfortunatly, you failed to act on your succes, nor did you anticipate Phoenix's ruthlessnes. To make it worse. Agrival- who entered the sim later, but did read all, did the same to you and gained a grudging respect from the Middle Kingdom.
Another remark, you forget the firestorm ravaging Shanghai rather nicely.
Thats exacly the problem, if they had such a hard time then, with me having bases in Korea and Shangai, its pretty near impossible here. But that could work to the Spec Ops advantage.
As for Agrival, I have yet to hear an adequate answer as to how you can rescue an Emperor that has already been returned.
As for Shangai, maybe the Japanese had it and lost it. Shangai and Hong Kong suffered about the same so I figure I can drop one and not cause any trouble.
The 3rd battle of Taiwan Straits should be a victory but with Orange ships.
Hard to make it not happened because the repairs ate my yearly shipbuilding budget.
QuoteAs for Agrival, I have yet to hear an adequate answer as to how you can rescue an Emperor that has already been returned.
I don't know either...however it gives a good example of why one shouldn't stall with their news, and the power of scripting your conflicts to avoid such pitfalls.
A simple solution is to have another battle between the Austrians and the OR, say around Namibia with the same result. I never understood the Austrians and Orange fighting for Namibia off Taiwan. A European Country fighting an African one for a piece of africa of Asia?
It's simple. BotP get his fleet to China.
I had to get mine to China too, and give it some beating of those ships to get Austria to the tables, and make them accept losing Namibia.
You know, I would like to know as to what we're going to stick to in regards of the history.
If we're going to stick to Borys's idea, I'll be using the Former Russian Pacific Fleet.
If we're going to stick to Desertfox's idea, I'll be using the Historical Japanese Fleet.
... so what will it be?
Walter - I'll get back to you on that one.
If we go my route you will probably keep the historical captures.
A link to the Battle of Tsushima: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima
So of these:
Battleships 8
Armoured cruisers 8
Cruisers 16
Monitors 3
Destroyers 51
21 ships sunk
7+ captured
rest go to the Russian fleet.
Desertfox, you don't have a "route". What you have is a writer pumping out alternative history in a newspaper.
This has been resolved.
Ivan Susasnin, the Far East Fleet commander, had the ships refitted at the Port Artur yard. It is a long way from the Laiotung Peninsula to Sankt Peterburg, and not all news reached the Admiraltseystvo.
Borys
Give me a single good reason as to why my version will not work.
Ahoj!
Maybe the moderator team has decided upon a different route to your's?
Borys
What if I cant work with the other version?
Ahoj!
As far as I am concerned the door is open ...
Borys
Before you guys get too far into the posturing - remind me, as briefly as possible, what the basic problem is?
Well lets put it this way, Borys version totaly screws up my foreign policy/outlook, gives me another instant and powerful enemy in the shape of the Japanese, totally confuses me, and presents us with another one of those here I am type countries (END anyone?) heck we might as well have gived Gabi Japan at Navalism II.
And Borys, unlike some people...I am not one to run away.
In for 2 penny's worth
Why not just gift Japan half the Russian fleet (i.e maybe the Protected cruisers and destoryers), and let Walter come up with his own BB's, and a few Armoured Cruisers.
Well I did propose giving him the historical captured Russian ships, and letting him have the historical (or own) Japanese fleet.
I agree that it's a big frickin' navy - but it was there before; stats were posted for it. It just didn't do very much. And it should have been on the Swiss radar screen, because Russia was allied to France during the NS/French hijinks. So I don't agree that it necessary adds to your burden any more than re-activating the CSA (or, eventually, Mesoamerica) do to mine, for example.
I do agree that it's confusing, to a point, but so were your alternate takes on history.
So puzzle me this, guys: in the original sim, NS lost the Japanese islands to a "Brownshirt" revolution, which saw the NSN flee en masse to Hawaii or somewhere. Is there any particular reason this can't still be the case - in which case 1905 only has to see Japan pick up a fleet and have its government become more Japanese in composition?
I dont have a problem with the fleet, the historical Japanese navy was also very big. But the way it happens pretty much makes the Japanese and enemy of NS (one too many) and I would at least want them to be neutral.
Basic problem: from a "historical" angle.
Navalism 1.2 did not have any Japan and had a full Russia.
The New Swiss were based out of the Home Islands with Korea, Taiwan, Hainan, a few treaty ports on the Mainland, parts of Australia, Anchorage, and lots of islands across the Pacific (and later former ACM owned Hawaii).
The Swiss lost a war with the Chinese (more or less) that denied them use of the treaty ports. There was a big split in the Swiss population (which Foxy left the sim for a time) that resulted in the former Swiss Republic being at least four different countries.
Navalism 1.3 does have Japan and Russia seems to have been somewhat neutered.
The New Swiss Home Islands have been shifted some thousands of miles east, they now have Taiwan, Hainan, Two-thirds of expanded Australia, Alaska, Hawaii, and lots of islands across the Pacific. They lost the treaty ports during the war with China, and probably never had Korea. There was probably no split, and the Swiss are making waves at the Philippines.
Basic problem is justifications for the altered state of the timeline. Some wish for a basic no fundimental change, all alterations happened during 1905 as events from Navalism 1.2 - 1.3.
Some see that as impossible to justify within the span of a year.
Others see this as an "always was" with Japan having been there in place since the Navalism 1.2 disaster in 1500 AD (thus taking that destruction and the need for as much of the population shift to the Americas), thus shifting the Swiss Homeland from Japan to the new islands to the east for all history. Thus Dynastic Japan remains in place from 1500 - 1900.
The fleet issue is about what placement the 1.2 Russian Pacific Fleet is in verses the Historical Japanese Navy.
Bory's view seems to want to have the Japanese Navy be the Russian Pacific Fleet (corrected to Walter's standards).
Desertfox's view seems to want the have the Historical (or whatever Walter comes up with version) Japanese Fleet in addition to the Historical number of captured Russian vessels (also corrected to Walter's standards) from the Russo-Japanese War (which would happen in this time period 1904-05).
(There of course is the evil option to do both, giving Walter the roughly Historical Japanese Navy and the corrected Navalism 1.2 Russian Pacific Fleet.)
After this is resolved and Japan's economy is setup, Walter can go about designing and building new ships, or rebuilding we he has already.
Ahoj!
"in the original sim, NS lost the Japanese islands to a "Brownshirt" revolution, which saw the NSN flee en masse to Hawaii or somewhere. Is there any particular reason this can't still be the case - in which case 1905 only has to see Japan pick up a fleet and have its government become more Japanese in composition?"
And this is what I am trying to achieve. I give the Japanese the Russian Far East Fleet (redesigned by Walter, as Olekit's designs were not very good) and the Exiles taking over the Gov't from the Brownshirts. This does not call for any change in previous Gaming, and a minor touches on pre-sim events.
Desertfox wants - if I understood correctly - "Others see this as an "always was" with Japan having been there in place since the Navalism 1.2 disaster in 1500 AD (thus taking that destruction and the need for as much of the population shift to the Americas), thus shifting the Swiss Homeland from Japan to the new islands to the east for all history. Thus Dynastic Japan remains in place from 1500 - 1900."
But why does this imply re-writing the Sino-New Swiss War, redesigning ships (?) and some other ideas, this I do not understand
Borys
QuoteBut why does this imply re-writing the Sino-New Swiss War, redesigning ships (?) and some other ideas, this I do not understand
No Korea and Japan means no Battle of Yantai (which is the major change) so to keep the defeats and victories it got moved to Manila (for NS) and Port Aurthur (for MK).
As for the ships. My fleet was a mess, my DDs for example had too much draught, I jumped from a 10" gun, 15kt CB to a 12" 22kt BC, I didnt know exacly when Antares or Launceston was finishes, etc etc. Thats why Im rebuilding my fleet. Its not getting any better or bigger, just fixing problems. DDs with less draught, Australia and Hawaii from ex-ACM to Swiss designed as a mid way step between Alaska and Consti, Antares fixed date wise, etc. But for example Hawaii stilll gets beaten up and requires a rebuild.
Okay: I'll wipe my planned post and instead just ask:
Suppose the 1500 disaster didn't wipe out the Japanese. Just weakened them enough that when the Swiss arrived, the Swiss took over, in a friendly kind of way...
Events we have seen in the sim continue as they did in the previous sim...
Fast-forward to 1905. The Brownshirts are in power. They're making noise about "getting" NS. The ethnic Japanese decide, "We're not interested in fighting that war. We'd just like our country back." Brief orgy of violence guts the Brownshirts, leaving an indigenous Japanese government in place that views the whole Swiss thing as finished business and starts with a blank slate so far as foreign affairs are concerned.
Would that work for everybody?
Could we stick to one issue at a time please?
Issue One: Timeline in relation to Swiss and Japan
Issue Two: Japan's Fleet
Issue Three: Swiss' Fleet
Ahoj!
As per Ithekro's post:
1 - Rock's proposal works for me
2 - nothing to add to what I already posted
3 - And why should you redesign your ships? You screwed them up, so that's what you got.
Borys
Works for me.
Issue One:
Rocky's solution mixed with Borys history makes a little more sense than either alone.
If we are still talking Swiss split, the Japan rise to power would be later 1901 or 1902 (not 1905). The abandonment of the Russian Pacific Frontier, and the Japanese population of Korea/Port Arthur area would be 1904-05.
However the remaining Swiss "Home Islands" would still be the grouping to the east, thus no economic "hardship" such as what happened in Navalism 1.2...instead the Swiss stay at their (older 1902) value in terms of industry and population.
Swiss relations with the Japanese might actually be favorable if the Swiss view this as a "better them than Brownshirts" situation. Plus gives them a potental ally (I assume).
Issue Two:
The abondoned Russian Forces thrown their lot with Korea and Japan after lossing all hope of help from Moscow....especially in Prenger in involved in the "expantion of the Japanese frontier".
Japan would have the industries of Japan (maybe Korea) to work with from 1/1/1902-1/1/1906 for new built ships, since the mainline Swiss took the Fleet with them. (half BP during those four years such as the Baltic and Dutch have?)
Ahoj!
Issue One:
"If we are still talking Swiss split, the Japan rise to power would be later 1901 or 1902 (not 1905).
The abandonment of the Russian Pacific Frontier, and the Japanese population of Korea/Port Arthur area would be 1904-05."
The Swiss split in winter 1902/03. Nipponisation of Nippon could be in late 1903 or in 1904, purchase of Russian Fleet in 1905.
"However the remaining Swiss "Home Islands" would still be the grouping to the east, thus no economic "hardship" such as what happened in Navalism 1.2...instead the Swiss stay at their (older 1902) value in terms of industry and population."
Why?
"Swiss relations with the Japanese might actually be favorable if the Swiss view this as a "better them than Brownshirts" situation. Plus gives them a potental ally (I assume)."
Yes.
Borys
Issue Three: (the touchy issue)
There seems to be some confusion at to just what the Swiss have in terms of a fleet from the War to the end of 1904.
We are working on what I hope is a useable solution.
Ahoj!
In 4Q1904 the New Swiss claimed an underfunded fleet of:
Roster: In service (Refitting/Repairing)+Building
BB: 2(0)
CB: 2(0)+2
AC: 6(0)
PC: 24(0)
LC: 10(0)+2(export)
DD: 63(0)+1
GB: 15(0)
SS: 9(0)
AU: 5(0)
TB: 50(0)
LZ: 1(0)
Borys
Issue one:
NS must have had (and lost) some industry in the Japanese islands. It wouldn't make sense for those islands to be undeveloped. It may be reasonable to think that the remaining NS economy then had to grow somewhat to account for that lost industry.
The inherited ex-NS industry would form the basis of the new Japanese economy. It would be supplemented by Japanese territorial gains in Siberia. Rather than spend additional resources building new warships, perhaps the focus in Japan in '03 to '05 is building up the economy, particularly the heavy industrial sector necessary to support that newly acquired fleet of theirs.
On the whole, though, I'd guess that neither the "new" NS or Japan would be first-rate economic powers as we start in 1906, because what they hatched from was not a world-leader in the first place.
Issue One:
Out of curitosity:
Based on pre-existing known data and using the new rules, what level should the two governements be at with regular growth?
Then maximum possible if military funds are used (minus theoretical upkeep costs)?
So kind of like a Pranger style counter coup?
That could work, but we are still left with the problem as to how the Japanese managed to get Manchuria while in turnmoil. And how the Chinese manage to lose it but still managed to capture Hong Kong (as they happened at the same time)
As for what I have right now that can be found in the New Switzerland thread, I can have a few ships be incomplete (United States, Antares, and some of the DDs).
How did the Japanese get Manchuria? The Chinese decided to give it to them, so they'd be strong against NS aggression.
Hong Kong is not a matter of capture, its a matter of leveled. It is useless...no one in their right mind would go there. It's like walking into a minefield with all the unexploded ordinance and the sea mines left in the harbors.
Basically that is No-Man's Land.
Problem with Desertfox's 'plan' is that Port Arthur will be part of the Middle Kingdom. If we follow his 'route', you have to realize that once Japan captures it, Japen will not just hand it over to the Middle Kingdom. Maybe in about 100 years...
You might probably think: "Well, then perhaps the Japanese were unable to captured Port Arthur." Unfortunately with Japan having the territories it has as given on the map, the victory over the Russians must have been huge, greater than in our history. There is no way that Port Arthur would not fall into the hands of the Japanese eventually. So it probably won't work.
The only way to make it work is to make it a little bit different would be to go back to the 1590s. Japan invades Korea. In real history, China send forces to Korea to stop the Japanese (while successful, it weakened China and resulted in Manchuria taking over China). MK does not do it here. Japanese forces push on into Manchuria, west and north. The westward forces hit the Great Wall (which starts somewhere to the east where Port Arthur lies now) and are unable to move further. Northward drive captures Manchuria and then goes on beyond, capturing those eastern parts of Russia.
Now while a Sino-Japan war would be possible, I think it is unlikely that there would be a Russo-Japan war (or perhaps there is, but it will happen on land, not at sea). This would explain how Japan got the territories it has now, will mean that PA is part of the MK and the NS-Japan relations would be neutral.
Of course that brings its own problem as it will have to fit inside the present history and would take a lot of time (perhaps too much time) so it probably won't work either.
QuoteSo of these...
... rest go to the Russian fleet.
Desertfox, if you want to know, these ships were captured by Japan during the Russo-Japan war:
Battleships:
Iwami (Orel)
Sagami (Peresviet)
Suwo (Pobieda)
Hizen (Retvisan)
Tango (Poltava)
Iki (Imperator Nikolai I)
Armored Ships:
Mishima (Admiral Senyiavin)
Okinoshima (General Admiral Apraksin)
Cruisers:
Aso (Bayan)
Soya (Varyag)
Tsugaru (Pallada)
Suzuya (Novik)
Destroyers:
Fumizuki (Baklan)
Yamabiko (Kondor)
Satsuki (Keta)
Shikinami (Gaidamak)
Makigumo (Vsadnik)
QuoteI dont have a problem with the fleet, the historical Japanese navy was also very big.
When comparing the two fleets, Olekit's 1901 (yes, 1901) fleet is 230 ships (with an unknown number of ships under construction) while the historical 1906 Japanese fleet was 173 (with 32 ships under construction).
Borys's Pacific Fleet planFor simplicity, it is assumed that no ships were purchased/built between 1901 and 1906.
BB: 10(0)+0
CA 10(0)+0
PC 16(0)+0
Mon 3(0)+0
GB: 11(0)+0
DD: 104(0)+0
Mine: 72(0)+0
SB: 4(0)+0
Total: 230(0)+0
Japanese Historical Fleet 1906BB: 12(0)+3
C1: 9(0)+3
C2: 11(0)+1
C3: 8(0)+0
DD: 29(0)+21
SB: 5(0)+2
CD: 12(0)+0
DP: 3(0)+0
GB: 7(0)+2
TB: 78(0)+0
Total: 174(0)+32
For comparison...
My Original (Almost) Historical Fleet 1906 plan Based on what I gave above with the Korean invasion, etc. This list assumes no Sino-Japan war or Russo-Japan war so no ships added or lost due to that conflict. Since Japan would get more territory, I decided to add Japan's 1903/1904 BB design to the list.
BB: 8(0)+3
C1: 8(0)+3
C2: 10(0)+1
C3: 8(0)+0
DD: 32(0)+21
SB: 5(0)+2
CD1: 11(0)+0
DP: 4(0)+0
GB: 10(0)+2
TB: 85(0)+0
Total: 181(0)+32
Quoteredesigned by Walter, as Olekit's designs were not very good
... there were those 1918 engines I ran into. I won't even mention the transom stern I encountered on one of the ships or the fact that I couldn't replicate one of Olekit's turbine designs without having the overal HS drop below -3.00 (yes minus)
QuoteSuppose the 1500 disaster didn't wipe out the Japanese. Just weakened them enough that when the Swiss arrived, the Swiss took over, in a friendly kind of way...
Unfortunately, I don't see how something like that could happen in a friendly way. It's more likely going to end in blood the moment NS tries to take over.
QuoteHow did the Japanese get Manchuria? The Chinese decided to give it to them, so they'd be strong against NS aggression.
... which no doubt will bring us back to Desertfox's 'original' "But the way it happens pretty much makes the Japanese an enemy of NS (one too many)" problem. :)
QuoteHong Kong is not a matter of capture, its a matter of leveled. It is useless...no one in their right mind would go there. It's like walking into a minefield with all the unexploded ordinance and the sea mines left in the harbors.
*Looks at Wesworld*
I might be crazy enough to do just that. ;D
Walter my version does have Japan capturing Port Arthur.
Yes, but if I am not mistaken, the idea is that it will be MK territory, not Japanese. Your version prevents that from happening as it is impossible that that will happen.
If I recall, Port Arthur and its surrounding were being leased by Russian from the Middle Kingdom in Navalism 1.2 history. Thus if the Russians default on payment, the Middle Kingdom come in and repossess the region (not unlike the reason for the War around Hong Kong).
That said I like the more "Japan has been there" method as it is cleaner. I know Borys hates the idea of someone changing simmed history, but somethings got to give someplace to make this all make sense logically. It would be nice if we could make the changes, if any, as small as possible to minimze frustrations. It is not perfect because it involved the New Swiss and anything involving the New Swiss has lead to trouble (through Foxy's efforts or without even). So I'd suggest finding a middle ground of some sort. Not everyone will be happy with it, but it will be good enough so that it doesn't become a constant sticky point (Wesworld people might recall various arguments over advanced technology in Europe's Boot when we don't even have a tech tree).
Issue Three:
Probable solution:
Quote
New Switzerland gets:
50,000 tons of new construction from 1/1/1902-12/31/1905 (this replaced any construction done in that period from before)
Divided roughly equally, so 12,500 tons a year or 6,250 tons every reporting period using the present rules system.
Two techs down per year, so the Swiss would be eight down for ships laid down 1902, six 1903, four 1904, and two 1905. Logical choice of techs please (from those the Swiss didn't have yet at the end of 1901...and the better Turbines come later in that progression, please).
Old ships cannot be redesigned. They may be refitted-rebuild-reconstructed as per the rules.
Whatever was on the Fleet List in 12/31/1901 remains as it was.
Ships hidden in that report were lost at sea...never to return in anyones hands.
No Antares..she's still lost in the war. A new one will need to be built if possible. (Your 1901 report is confusing us on this count Foxy. In it the Antares is being worked on, but our question is how?)
The ACM fleet including the rebuilt Hawaii as Ithekro's SpringSharp and ex-Goa as Swampen's Springsharp should be kept or sold...or not purchased if that is the case.
Quote
New Switzerland Fleet Q4/1901
Roster: In service (Refitting/Repairing)+Building (note: inaccurate due to war losses)
BB: 0(0)+1 (Hawaii)
cB: 3(0)
SC: 1(0)
AC: 4(0)+3
PC: 6(0)
PC: 16(0)ex-ACM
PS: 13(0)
LC: 10(1)+1
DD: 39(0)
GB: 20(0)
TB: 28(0)
EX: 2(0)
SS: 5(0)
LZ: 1(0)
Aux: 6(0)
VLS: 204(0)+10
VLS=very light ships
LZ=Airships
Comments? Questions?
Issue Two:
I like Walter's Naval Plan best. Not as many larger ships in the water (yet).
QuoteMy Original (Almost) Historical Fleet 1906 plan
Based on what I gave above with the Korean invasion, etc. This list assumes no Sino-Japan war or Russo-Japan war so no ships added or lost due to that conflict. Since Japan would get more territory, I decided to add Japan's 1903/1904 BB design to the list.
BB: 8(0)+3
C1: 8(0)+3
C2: 10(0)+1
C3: 8(0)+0
DD: 32(0)+21
SB: 5(0)+2
CD1: 11(0)+0
DP: 4(0)+0
GB: 10(0)+2
TB: 85(0)+0
Total: 181(0)+32
What is the total tonnage of the Japanese fleet?
Antares wasnt lost in the war it was Alliance (15,000t). And to have her back I was scrapping 3 5,000 ton CBs and have her be finished after the war (so it would still work). The ships I wanted to redisign where the DDs because they just look silly with a 15 ft draft on a 500 ton ship, they wouldnt be better (no gun, speed, etc changes) just be more realistic (they where the first ships I designed in SS1, hence the inacuracies)
This is my Fleet list as of Q1/02:
Naval List as of January 1st 1902 (note: more ships might be sunk due to war)
Current Fleet:
2 Super Cruisers SC 4x12in, 21.9kt.
NSS Constitution (damaged)
NSS Alliance (sunk)
3 Heavy Cruisers AC 4x8in, 22.9kt.
NSS Sirus
NSS Polaris
NSS Canis
1 Heavy Cruiser AC 4x9in, 27kt.
NSS Antares (building)
4 Protected Cruisers PC 4x8in, 21.9kt.
NSS Olympia (sunk)
NSS Phoenix (damaged)
NSS Anchorage (damaged)
NSS Sydney (sunk)
13 Protected Sailing Cruisers PSC 2x6in, 17kt.
NSS Taipei
NSS Zurich
NSS Melbourne
NSS New Amsterdam
NSS Seattle
NSS Treton
NSS Portland
NSS Launceston (sunk)
NSS Kayenta
NSS Port Blair
NSS Kwalajein
NSS McKean
NSS New York
2 Protected Cruiser PC 2x6in, 19kt.
NSS Saipan
NSS Atlanta
2 Coastal Battleships CB 4x10in, 15kt.
NSS Alaska
NSS Australia
12 Light Cruisers LC 2x6in, 4x4in, 4TT, 25kt.
NSS Pegausus (damaged)
NSS Minotaur (sunk)
NSS Griffin
NSS Kraken
NSS Nessie (damaged)
NSS Centaur (sunk)
NSS Beleraphon
NSS Valkyrie
NSS Scycilia
NSS Cerebrus (sunk)
NSS Sphinx
NSS Bagheera
13 Destroyers DD 2x4in, 4TT, 25kt.
NSS Johann Wyss class (damaged)
NSS Van Winkle (damaged)
NSS James Watt
NSS John Walter (damaged)
10 other unnamed (9 sunk)
25 Destroyers DD 2x3in, 4TT, 22.9kt.(8 wt mines)
NSS Fritz class
(1 sunk)
4 Destroyers DD 2x4in, 4TT, 25kt.
NSS Mendez class (rebuild ex-ACM T40 class)
1 Destroyer DD 2x4in, 4TT, 25kt.
NSS Littelstone class
10 Gun Boats GB 2x4in, 21kt
(rebuild ex-ACM G1 class)
16 Heavy Torpedo Boats TH 2x47mm, 5TT, 27kt
(ex-CSA TR 1896 class)
50 Fast Torpedo Boats TS 1x50cal, 4TT, 35kt
NSS Turbinia class
10 Gunboats GB 1x4in, 12kt
Miscellaneous Torpedo boats & Auxiliaries:
114 TB 2TT (2 sunk)
50 PT 4TT (1 sunk)
24 TBD 2TT, 1x3in (scraped)
1 "Mystery Ship" SGX? 4x14in dynamite guns?, 22.9kt?
NSSx Vesuvius?
1 submarine SS 4kt.
NSSx Holland
5 submarine SS 5kt, 1TT
NSS Archerfish
NSS Amberjack
NSS Argonaut
NSS Albacore
NSS Angler
1 submarine SS 8kt, 2TT
NSS Bonita
Auxilaries
5 AMC Nottingham class (1 damaged)
20 ACG Auxilary Gunboats (2 sunk)
ACM ships:
1 Battleship BB 4x12in, 21kt
ex-ACM Hawaii (under construction)
1 Coastal Battleship CB 2x12in, 15.6kt
ex-ACM Defence
2 Heavy Cruisers AC 4x8in, 19.3kt
ex-ACM Honolulu (ex Marlin) under construction
ex-ACM Pearl Harbor (ex-Dolphin) under construction
1 Heavy Cruiser 12x6in, 18.2kt
ex-ACM Tuna
3 Trade Fast Cruisers TFC 6x6in, 21.9kt
ex-ACM Carp (damaged)
ex-ACM Pike
ex-ACM Swordfish
11 Trade Protected Cruisers TPC 6x6in, 18.5kt
ex-ACM Cod
ex-ACM Trout
ex-ACM Manta
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM (sunk)
3 Trade Cruisers TC 6x6in, 16.5kt (sold)
ex-ACM Salmon
ex-ACM Skipjack
ex-ACM Sturgeon
1 Coilier CC 4x6in, 14.6 kt
ex-ACM Ayudador
12 Torpedo Boats TB 1x3in, 2 16in TT, 22.2 kt
ex-ACM T40 class (2 badly damaged)
10 Gun Boats GB 2x3in, 21.8 kt
ex-ACM G1 class
(3 sunk)
2 Heavy Cruisers AC 4x8in, 19kt
ex-GC Defender (ex Protector)
ex-GC Warrior (ex Guerrero)
2 Coastal Battleships CB 4x8in, 15kt
ex-DKB Liberty (ex Siegwulf)
ex-DKB Justice (ex Beowulf) (sunk)
I see. I suppose Maddox approved that? (the 3 for 1 plan)
My suggestion is don't redesign the destroyers...scrap them and maybe some of your acquired ACM ships and build new destroyers to replace them. They'll be newer and won't need to be refitted for many more years.
I'd also suggest scrapping a lot of the older ships of the fleet during this opportunity. You might only get back 15% but it is something.
Note: Hawaii wasn't "under construction" she was being rebuilt in Rohan. Now if you'd like a different Hawaii, I'd suggest building a new one in 1902...defaulting on the sale of the former ACM ship...so you'd loose about 2,000 tons of material I guess from 1901 invested in her...She wouldn't have sat forever in dock in Rohan, and would have been converted into a target ship as Rohan planned to begin with.
I recall the two former GC armored cruisers being sold...to DKB, I think.
That is correct.
SMS Roon (ex-NSS Defender, ex-GCN Protector)
SMS Yorck (ex-NSS Warrior, ex-GCN Guerrero)
;D
Walter - just don't do anything that would make the one Dragon angry at the other, please. When Dragons fight, mice get trampled (and I'd really like the Reich to be friendly with both Dragons too). ;)
Does this two ships has an ex-ACM name too?
Where those ex-ACM ships? The two ex-DKB ships were German design and I think the two GC ships were old GC designs.
NM then.
This is the differences between my OOB as of 1902 and the one I want as of 1906. It shows what ships I wanted to exchange for what (or where exchanged after 1902). The Spanish ships would be defectors during the war. One thing I remmebered my Wys (Black Cats) class DDs have turbo electric drive. Any problem with that.
Ships which dont appear in 1902:
New Builts:
1 Battleship BB 6x12in, 21kt (Under construction)
NSS United States
2 Cruisers CC 4x8in, 25kt (1 Under construction)
NSS Launceston
NSS Melbourne
3 Light Cruisers LC 5x6in, 4TT, 27kt
NSS Jaguar
NSS Lion
NSS Tiger
8 Destroyers DD 3x4in, 4TT, 27kt (some under construction)
NSS Van Hake
NSS Van Antwerp
6 more
15 Destroyers DD 2x4in, 4TT, 27kt (some under construction)
NSS Littelstone class
Exchanges:
1 Battlecruisers BC 4x12in, 24kt (for 3 CBs)
NSS Alliance
1 Battleship BB 4x12in, 18kt (for 2 ACs)
NSS Australia
1 Cruisers CC 4x8in, 22kt (for 5 PCs)
NSS Olympia
2 Cruisers CC 2x10", 8x6", 22kt (for 3 TFCs)
Tuna class equivalent
2 Protected Cruisers PC 5x5in, 21kts (for 3 TPCs)
ex-Spanish
5 Destroyers DD (for 6 DDs)
ex-Spanish
Ships which do then but not in 1906:
3 Coastal Battleships CB 4x9in, 21kt (for Alliance)
NSS Alaska
NSS Tasmania
NSS Guam
1 Coastal Battleships CB 4x10in, 15kt (sunk)
NSS Australia
5 Protected Cruisers 2x6", 17kt (for Olympia)
NSS Atlanta class
6 Destroyers DD 2x4in, 4TT, 25kt. (for Spanish DDs)
NSS Mendez class (rebuild ex-ACM T40 class)
3 Trade Cruisers TC 6x6in, 16.5kt (for Spanish PCs)
ex-ACM Salmon
ex-ACM Skipjack
ex-ACM Sturgeon
2 Heavy Cruisers AC 4x8in, 19kt (for Australia)
ex-GC Defender (ex Protector)
ex-GC Warrior (ex Guerrero)
3 Trade Fast Cruisers TFC 6x6in, 21.9kt (for Tunas)
ex-ACM Carp (damaged)
ex-ACM Pike
ex-ACM Swordfish
10 Gunboats GB 1x4in, 12kt (for nothing)
Quote2 Heavy Cruisers AC 4x8in, 19kt (for Australia)
ex-GC Defender (ex Protector)
ex-GC Warrior (ex Guerrero)
DKB purchased these ships Q3/04. So they were not in the NS inventory as of 31 December 1904 - therefore not relevant to this discussion.
Well you have 50,000 tons, four years, scrap values, and sales prices...see what you can do with it using what you really had 1/1/1902 before we push on the other mods few remaining nerves, okay?
If your results are really poor (remember the Lake Fleet as well), then we can talk about your exchanges. I don't like raising the dead...besides people keep trying to steal the sword that can command the Army of the Dead (it's mine!).
I probably can get evrything I want (except for the Great Lakes Fleet) for 50,000 tons.
Now the question is what would people prefere? A 27kt, 12" brand new Battlecruiser, or an older 24kt one with unreliable engines? I know which one I would prefere.
As they say...rules are rules.
You still need to have the tech, time to get the tech in place, and then the time to build the vessel.
Remember to not neglect your western frontier and Lake Fleet...the Muslims are a tricky bunch and if you don't have protection them might just raid your lands or take the whole of the lakes without much resistance.
A 27kt new built Alliance is perfectly within the rules, and would be finished just in time for 1906...
Remember to show your work, there will be a test later.
Issue Four: Republic of the Philippines?
If a war is viable due to Swiss manipulations in the Philippines starting very, very late in 1904 and early 1905, might I suggest the Republic of the Philippines be a rebellion for much of 1905, therefore the Hapsburg may or may not care (As a weak, non-communist Philipines would be even better than a Communist buffer state, especially if the Kingdom of Aragon could try to influence the matter. Maybe bring them back to the Monarchy) Swiss involvement coming out over the course of 1905 maybe leading to the new Iberian Government (the final fall of the Communists in Spain could be a result of the loss of the Philippines to a Republic form of government...puppet state or not) and the Hapsburgs and Iberians moving against the Swiss with their forces not arriving in force until 1906. The DKB forces might be involved sooner, but why put yourself in danger when you have help coming?
Would the press being reporting Hapsburg movements while going the long way around like the Russian had for their Fleet during the Russo-Japanese War?
If we look at the 1905 "Borys" history. Phoenix agreed in giving the Japanese in exile- who lived in the MK by her grace- Brownshirt Japan (not hers to give) and Mantjoeria. Just to give the NS a big farwell.
I would say, the Japanese don't feel much aggression towards the Middle Kingdom, who sheltered and rewarded them , and a lot more antagonist towards the European NS.
The only real losers are the Brownshirts, who are the invention of Desertfox himself. That France, and even Agrival poured in money in this political movement shouldn't be a surprise.
As well the French hands off politics after the Pu Lun coupe.
In effect. Walter gets Japan and Mantsjoeria, with a Chinese blessing.... Desetfox doesn't lose any real power, just his old mainlands, whom he did give up before.
Ahoj!
Quote from: maddox on March 23, 2007, 01:59:45 AM
I would say, the Japanese don't feel much aggression towards the Middle Kingdom, who sheltered and rewarded them , and a lot more antagonist towards the European NS.
This hostility is (somewhat) tempered by the presence of the White minority. Who own businesses etc.
Imagine Quebec waging war on Ontario - a large part od Keybaker industry and trade is owned by English speakers, who would torpedo/sabotage/ wage "civil disobedience" against such a thing.
Borys
I agree Borys. Smart rulers don't antagonise a rich part of their civilians.
Will someone PM when the situtation between Iberia and New Switzerland has been made final?
Michael
Bad and deteriorating?
OK... war maybe off... Me and desert fox are having some talks...
QuoteWhat is the total tonnage of the Japanese fleet?
What is the total tonnage of the Japanese fleet?
Which one? The Russian Pacific Fleet version? My version? Historical version?
I miss a number of sims for the Russian Pacific Fleet, but looking at Janes as well as the 'existing' other ships, my guess would be that the 1901 Pacific fleet is 230 ships strong at 375,000 tons (Russian displacements are standard). As far as I can see, all Russian ships are >1890.
My idea is based on the data from this site...
http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/index.htm (http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/index.htm)
... (excluding the Sino-Japan/Russo-Japan war gains and losses and including a slightly modified 1903/1904 design BB to fit properly into the BB timeline armament-wise). This would give me a 207 ship strong navy at 421,069 tons (Japanese displacements are normal (so also those given below); real rough guess will put the standard at about 400,000 tons).
However, unlike the Russian fleet, that Japanese fleet has numerous vessels under construction (29 ships, 108,366 tons). That would mean that the total operational strength is 178 ships at 312,817 tons. Of those ships, 11 (25,234 tons) are <1885.
And as I have pointed out, the Russian fleet is based on 1901 figures while the Japanese fleet is based on 1906 figures.
As for the historical navy in 1906...
I would have to do some recalculations, but seeing how many capital ships that Japanese lost during the Russo-Japan war and how many they gained during the war, I would say it is of similar size as my original idea (due to the inclusion of the 1903/1904 design instead of the additional Russian vessels).
QuoteWill someone PM when the situtation between Iberia and New Switzerland has been made final?
I'm sure someone can do that once the smoke has cleared and all the survivors are leaving their shelters. :D
So what of the honorable Admiral Togo? The male version rather than his "granddaughter"? ;D
Who knows (depends on the final version)...
http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/px00.htm#f004 (http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/px00.htm#f004)
... as for his "granddaughter"...
And if I against to what happend with Russia?
Oy...a new wrinkle. Just when you think everything is more or less fixed you need to get the iron back out. Einstien, I don't think, even had an idea of the fabric of time-space and the amount of ironing you need to do to get it nice enough to go out in public.
Suggestions for Issue Five: Russia?
Uh-oh! Back to the Drawing board, I guess. :D
Ahoj!
Olekit - this site has been around for a month. I believe Earl22 contacted you at least a week ago, if not two, informing about this board. You did not show up then, when we were much less advanced in geomancy. The map has been redrawn and is final, with only minor retouches possible.
For the good of the game the more active SuperPowers - France, Russia, the "E" country have been weakened or eliminated. You are wellcome to play - either continuing your Russia in the guise of Muscovy - more or less half of your previous economy, with Baltic Fleet and Arctic Squadron. Or another country.
Borys
Wow! Thanks for posting the link to this Walter.
In all my 2 year wanderings I had never come across this post. I had to bump just to make sure everyone has seen it. It is bringing alot of things together which never made sense to me(I am still reading as I get a moment).
Perhaps this should be stickied?