Koikoi, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1902)
Displacement:
26,611 t light; 28,110 t standard; 29,702 t normal; 30,976 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
708.47 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
215.94 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
6 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 10,092 lbs / 4,578 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 423.23 ft / 129.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 282.12 ft / 85.99 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
4th: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19,994 shp / 14,916 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,866 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,130 - 1,470
Cost:
£2.458 million / $9.830 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,261 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 10,527 tons, 35.4 %
- Belts: 3,700 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,701 tons, 9.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,881 tons, 13.1 %
- Conning Tower: 244 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,332 tons, 11.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,966 tons, 36.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,091 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
46,427 lbs / 21,059 Kg = 56.4 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 7.4 ft / 2.2 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.49
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.652
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 29 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
- Stern: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.8 %
Waterplane Area: 53,283 Square feet or 4,950 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 752 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.11
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia
Class of three:
Koikoi
Ririate
Whakakaha
I have no doubt that I've gotten at least one thing off and/or unreasonable, and am counting on my kind new neighbors to point them out for correction. ^_^
only thing that realy jumps out at me right off the bat is the lack of an upper belt, other than that without knowing your tech status id say looked good 18 knots is a tad slow but you realy dont have anywhere to go so it should be fine.
Ahoj!
Lack of Upper Belt apart, why the raised poop deck? For a bigger splash?
Hurr-hurr?
Borys
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/Koikoi.gif)
Very early in the progress of my attempt to produce an image of her, but it should give a clear idea of why her freeboard looks that way.
Ahoj!
The Big Splash is now understood.
Tough to sim.
And I think that the twin MG turrets should be "raised" - I could be wrong, though.
Borys
Cool. I disagree with the main turrets - if anything, I'd put the singletons below the deck, if SS allows it.
Your operating range is really short, and your deck armor quite heavy; maybe increase the former at the expense of the latter?
Ahoj!
Good point on the deck - 2 inches is OK. 3 inches - immpressive and/or wasteful at this time.
SS does not allow turrets below freeboard.
Dreadnaught's fore turret is "raised", the wing turrets are "on deck".
Borys
Borys
Quote from: Valles on December 24, 2007, 03:55:21 PM
Very early in the progress of my attempt to produce an image of her, but it should give a clear idea of why her freeboard looks that way.
now im the one that feals stupid lol I have spent forever trying to come up with a way to do just that in SS
Koikoi, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1902)
Displacement:
26,611 t light; 28,110 t standard; 29,702 t normal; 30,976 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
708.47 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
215.94 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 10,092 lbs / 4,578 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 423.23 ft / 129.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 282.12 ft / 85.99 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 705.38 ft / 215.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
4th: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19,994 shp / 14,916 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,866 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,130 - 1,470
Cost:
£2.458 million / $9.830 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,261 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 10,140 tons, 34.1 %
- Belts: 4,711 tons, 15.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,856 tons, 9.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,329 tons, 7.8 %
- Conning Tower: 244 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,332 tons, 11.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,352 tons, 38.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,091 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
45,380 lbs / 20,584 Kg = 55.1 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.44
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.652
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 29 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
- Stern: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.8 %
Waterplane Area: 53,283 Square feet or 4,950 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 779 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.11
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia
Class of three:
Koikoi
Ririate
Whakakaha
Revised version! Elevated main turrets, upper belt added, tweaked deck armor. Lesser stability but it's not like she didn't have it to spare. Top speed is limited by the age of her machinery - 20,000 hp will only push a ship this size so fast. Range is not considered a priority; her reason for existence is to smash intruders, not to go overseas looking for trouble, and the legs she's got are plenty long enough for that.
Looks like a good BB for a mostly reclusive culture, Im eager to see a pic of her ^.^
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/Koikoi-1.gif)
Updated with GUNS! ^_^
you might want to make the guns a tad taller. unless of course your People are Pigmis (only Pacific Islanders I have ever known were Samoans, and they wouldnt even fit in the palatial french turrets =P)
1902 steam turbines are worse than VTEs of same year.
Ship is just insanely large. Too high freeboard. About a thousand ton wasted on that alone. Length is excessive for such a mediocre speed. The armament and armor would fit nicely on a 18000t ship of 150m length.
Turrets usually had entrance in the 'bustle' floor, and they were raised above the deck by ~1.5m. If not, you must have a door at the back face with weak armor. AFAIK no navy choose that option. And turrets height should be ~3m.
Turret side armor is thin.
Quarternary armor for the 75mm guns... 6"??
Range is unacceptable. Even the KuK Marine, confined to the Adriatic, had longer ranged ships.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/Koikoi-2.gif)
With potential homeports on the order of 6o degrees south latitude, I kinda can't see
any seakeeping measure being excessive.
QuoteTurrets usually had entrance in the 'bustle' floor, and they were raised above the deck by ~1.5m. If not, you must have a door at the back face with weak armor. AFAIK no navy choose that option. And turrets height should be ~3m.
I've yet to be able to find a detailed enough depiction of turrets of the period to properly gauge their dimensions; these are guided by what I understand must happen within them... and tank turrets. The turret's machinery, in my mind, extends down into the barbette in a rotating 'cage' that hangs from the rollers around the edge. Crew access is by ladder, either from above or below.
QuoteRange is unacceptable. Even the KuK Marine, confined to the Adriatic, had longer ranged ships.
Unwise, I'm prepared to say that it may well be. But given a design mandate of 'local' defense and the availability of resupply by train anywhere along the defended coast, I think that 3000 nm is quite adequate.
I'd very much rather avoid scrapping my existing visual work for this class, also. After all, I have to do all this in
MSPaint, so it's kind of labor intensive.
Turret access from above means large holes on the very thick (6-8") turret roof. Below access is problematic, as the barbette is a closed cylinder, and your solution would offer entrance/exit only through the magazines. Forget leaving the turrets in any kind of hurry.
And here's what I managed to get on 17000t.
HMHS Exepmli Gratia, Battleship laid down 1900
Displacement:
16,935 t light; 17,915 t standard; 18,971 t normal; 19,816 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
500.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
152.40 m / 152.40 m x 24.38 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 863.99lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 10,098 lbs / 4,580 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 150.00 ft / 45.72 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
3rd: 8.00" / 203 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,541 ihp / 9,355 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,901 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
807 - 1,050
Cost:
£1.927 million / $7.709 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,262 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 6,948 tons, 36.6 %
- Belts: 3,164 tons, 16.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,502 tons, 13.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,097 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Tower: 184 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,960 tons, 10.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,516 tons, 34.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,036 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,994 lbs / 8,615 Kg = 22.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.41
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.60 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.65 ft / 4.77 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.65 ft / 4.77 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.65 ft / 4.77 m
- Stern: 15.65 ft / 4.77 m
- Average freeboard: 16.37 ft / 4.99 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.6 %
Waterplane Area: 29,662 Square feet or 2,756 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 762 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.64
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ill assume your working at a 1-1 ratio, thats what all my ships are drawn at btw, I work entierly in photoshop. and carth and I work on about the same scale so you might want to have a look at some of our ships to get an idea what they should look like.
Overgunned and underspeed...seems like something Rohan would do without modern engines (or more accurately what Rohan was doing before it got modern engines). 18 knots is about normal for a battleship in 1904. Remember Dreadnought and especially the Japanese Ibuki was considered fast for capital ships at the time.
That reminds me that I've not been posting pictures of Rohan's ships like I use to (at least for the Battleships). Mine are in Paint a 1 pixel to the foot.
Quote from: P3DTurret access from above means large holes on the very thick (6-8") turret roof. Below access is problematic, as the barbette is a closed cylinder, and your solution would offer entrance/exit only through the magazines. Forget leaving the turrets in any kind of hurry.
But it gives a better protected turret, doesn't it? The crew can like that or not, if the Maorian admirality has chosen that option, it's the crew that has to suffer the inconvience.
And, if it was for France, an elevator will be installed. I'm always giving 100 tons misc weight to Crew Comfort, so 20 tons of elevators isn't to shabby. (Historicaly some of the elder predreads had elevators in the polemasts, so why not next to the munition hoists for the main turrets?)
I see advantages to the Maorian "straigth on deck" turrets.
But also glaring disadvantages. Short range engagements will always rip up her own deck planking.
Hits that won't penetrate the deck armor or the barbette will mangle the weatherdeck, giving a good chance on a jammed turret.
QuoteGet out the oxy/acy cutters boys, and wear your southwestern in lockerrooms 5 to 11.
Ahoj!
I do not know about other fleets, I've only read about the USN in this respect, specifically the North Caroline cass. There was a debate on moving the evacuation hatches - from the customary location - in the underside of the overhang - the the turret rear. To bring the turret closer to the deck, and thus save 150 tonnes or more.
And from what I've seen, this "overhang underside hatch" could be as high as a 6-7 foot above the deck (it could be a superfiring turret, I don't know for sure). In most other pictures I see - from other fleets - that the barbette sticks out some 3-4 feet above the deck.
Check the battleship calibre guns here:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm
I would not be so worried about top hatches at this age. There was SOME 12K yards shooting in the last war. Angles of impact at that angle are almost guarantied to ricochette. And in 1906 nobody in Maoria dreamt of over 7K yard shooting, so turret top hits are under the radar, so to speak.
Borys
Quote from: Valles on December 24, 2007, 04:25:31 PM
Koikoi, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1902)
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 423.23 ft / 129.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 282.12 ft / 85.99 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 705.38 ft / 215.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
4th: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
- Stern: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia
Revised version! Elevated main turrets, upper belt added, tweaked deck armor. Lesser stability but it's not like she didn't have it to spare. Top speed is limited by the age of her machinery - 20,000 hp will only push a ship this size so fast. Range is not considered a priority; her reason for existence is to smash intruders, not to go overseas looking for trouble, and the legs she's got are plenty long enough for that.
3 things: First 150 shells is alittle extreme for a BB, you'll need to reline the barrel before you get through 150 rounds/barrel, try 80-90 max. Second, with your layout the barbettes of your fore and aft turret are not covered by the upper belt, as it stops at least 1m prior to deck level, add in that they're raised up you'll have even more exposed barbette, therefore 27.5cm maybe a little thin, maybe 35cm, just to be safe. Don't wanna Magsplosion. Third, While I too do not know your approved "Tech" levels, I assume since fire-control is a new to most tech that only a select few have mastered, and Maori seems to have no interaction w/ anyone prior to now, therefore no idea/need for it, I assume it's not available to you at this time. However, I tend to over rationalize things sometimes and good be thinking the wrong way. I just figure since Maori seems very introverted, combined w/ the home defense/Bory's comment on no farther than 7ky shooting idea, that Maorian scientists would have yet to discover, due to lack of need, this still new technology.
150 shells can be fired, without needing to reline the barrel.
Several things can happen/be done.
2 obvious things.
Reduced charges. For non AP shelling the most obvious option.
Live with the reduced accuracy of a worn liner.
Better to shoot inaccurate than not to shoot at all is what I think about it.
The firecontrol , it also gives better shooting at shorter ranges as it centralises the targetting. It's not only ranging that counts. But also communication and training.
Armor. Everybody fits as is viewed. If the Maorian admirality wants armor like displayed, then the ships will be build with that armor.
Ahoj!
Barbettes can be slightly thinner than turret faces. They are round(ish), so unless your middle name is "Fire Magnet" or similar, enemy shells have a miniscule chance of hitting "dead on".
IIRC pre-dreadnaughts usually carried 60-70 rounds of MG shells. The "dreadnaught revolution" brought this up to about 100. I've never seen any battleship with more than 120.
The turret layout to me says:
- 2x2 turrets, both raised
- 6x1 turrets
Why the Big Splash effect? Why not lower it? Aesthetics? I not - then you could lower the quarterdeck and do either a "rised f'castle" or a "rise fore of midbreak", with - in the former case - only one raised turret?
Especially a home defence navy does not need to carry much ammunition - bases are close on hand.
Turret roofs are probaby 3"? 4"? thick.
Gun life varied - the HMV + light shells were the worst, under 200 shots. The LMV + heavy shell were better, some arond 350 IIRC.
The USN APC superheavies would "deline" the barrels after 60 or 70 shots, IIRC.
Borys
Quote from: maddox on December 25, 2007, 12:34:20 AM
But it gives a better protected turret, doesn't it? The crew can like that or not, if the Maorian admirality has chosen that option, it's the crew that has to suffer the inconvience.
And, if it was for France, an elevator will be installed. I'm always giving 100 tons misc weight to Crew Comfort, so 20 tons of elevators isn't to shabby. (Historicaly some of the elder predreads had elevators in the polemasts, so why not next to the munition hoists for the main turrets?)
I see advantages to the Maorian "straigth on deck" turrets.
But also glaring disadvantages. Short range engagements will always rip up her own deck planking.
Hits that won't penetrate the deck armor or the barbette will mangh gle the weatherdeck, giving a good chance on a jammed turret.
QuoteGet out the oxy/acy cutters boys, and wear your southwestern in lockerrooms 5 to 11.
I bet there would not be enough space for another elevator next to the ladders and the ammo lifts. I just noted that all RL navies decided against putting a weak spot on the turret top/back. An the turret back usually won't face enemy battleships, and even a door can be armored against 6" guns. Later in WWII, with planes throwing AP bombs it would not be a good compromise.
Well so far there has been only a few air attacks on ships. Three that I recall from the last war. One destroyer sunk by an airship. One Japanese armored cruiser damaged by airplanes, and one Brandenberg Battlecruiser damaged by airplanes (mostly it was the fire that did the damage).
Quote from: P3DI bet there would not be enough space for another elevator next to the ladders and the ammo lifts. I just noted that all RL navies decided against putting a weak spot on the turret top/back. An the turret back usually won't face enemy battleships, and even a door can be armored against 6" guns. Later in WWII, with planes throwing AP bombs it would not be a good compromise.
A potential solution to the "Under the overhang" hatch/height to deck issue on the Maorian BB is having hatches in the deck, 2 or 3 so the crew in the turret has 2 options.
Entry/evac trought the underoverhang hatch with the turret in a fixed position, or trough the magazines.
On the French "personel elevator from the magazine", it just uses a bigger barbette to fit all in.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/Koikoi-3.gif)
Koikoi, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1902)
Displacement:
26,319 t light; 27,814 t standard; 29,520 t normal; 30,885 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
708.47 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
215.94 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 10,092 lbs / 4,578 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 423.23 ft / 129.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 282.12 ft / 85.99 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 705.38 ft / 215.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
4th: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines plus steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19,898 ihp / 14,844 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 4,800nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,071 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,125 - 1,463
Cost:
£2.423 million / $9.692 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,261 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 10,045 tons, 34.0 %
- Belts: 4,711 tons, 16.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,771 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 2,320 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Tower: 243 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,158 tons, 10.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,329 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,201 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
46,049 lbs / 20,888 Kg = 55.9 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.44
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.648
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 29 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
- Stern: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.9 %
Waterplane Area: 53,088 Square feet or 4,932 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 780 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.11
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia
Class of three:
Koikoi
Ririate
Whakakaha
Now, could I be an indulgence of someone to walk me through what her cost is under the sim rules? The listing in the Rules section of the forum is kinda baffling.
The rules section does need some clean-up.
Happily, as a plain ol' warship, her cost is directly related to her light displacement:
26,310 t Light = $26.31
$26.31 either up front or spaced out while under construction.
26.310 BP in a Type 3 slip or dock at a maximum rate of 6 BP per half year. (1 BP of course just breaks down to 1,000 tons of material)
Mako, Maoria Light Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
5,264 t light; 5,536 t standard; 5,950 t normal; 6,281 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
398.34 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
121.42 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
32 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 1,236 lbs / 561 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 8.14 ft / 2.48 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 78.71 ft / 23.99 m 8.14 ft / 2.48 m
Upper: 2.36" / 60 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.79" / 20 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 18.44 ft / 5.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 16,912 shp / 12,616 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 745 tons
Complement:
338 - 440
Cost:
£0.422 million / $1.686 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 154 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 2,255 tons, 37.9 %
- Belts: 1,163 tons, 19.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 169 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 298 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 570 tons, 9.6 %
- Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 769 tons, 12.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,901 tons, 31.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 686 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 185 tons, 3.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,928 lbs / 4,503 Kg = 96.4 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.77
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.585
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.43 ft / 0.74 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.6 %
Waterplane Area: 13,041 Square feet or 1,212 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 388 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.47
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
60 tons misc weight
25 tons Marconi
100 tons fire control
Class of 8:
Mako
Ururoa
Pere
Ripi
Tope
Tuatini
Tahekapatu, Maoria Armored Cruiser laid down 1900 (Engine 1902)
Displacement:
11,976 t light; 12,230 t standard; 12,736 t normal; 13,140 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
461.56 ft / 459.32 ft x 65.62 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
140.68 m / 140.00 m x 20.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1900 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,927 lbs / 2,688 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 0
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 321.52 ft / 98.00 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 137.76 ft / 41.99 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 321.52 ft / 98.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 6.69" / 170 mm 9.84" / 250 mm
2nd: 9.84" / 250 mm 6.69" / 170 mm 9.84" / 250 mm
3rd: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 9.84" / 250 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines plus steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 12,386 ihp / 9,240 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 910 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
599 - 779
Cost:
£1.317 million / $5.267 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 741 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 4,379 tons, 34.4 %
- Belts: 1,726 tons, 13.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,701 tons, 13.4 %
- Armour Deck: 836 tons, 6.6 %
- Conning Tower: 116 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,966 tons, 15.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,634 tons, 36.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 760 tons, 6.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 255 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,231 lbs / 6,002 Kg = 27.8 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.644
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 32
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.21 ft / 0.37 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m before break)
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.39 ft / 5.30 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.8 %
Waterplane Area: 22,961 Square feet or 2,133 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 664 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.71
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
130 tons misc. unplanned weights
25 tons Marconi
100 tons fire control
Class of 4:
Wahakatoke
Taomatuku
Tahekapatu
Pouakai
one thing I should point out (well someone should anyway) Fire control is 250 tons (dont ask me why I never had it and still dont)
You most probably don't have the technology to build that light cruiser, you can only have 6" guns in single mounts with hoist.
Quote from: P3D on December 26, 2007, 06:35:40 PM
You most probably don't have the technology to build that light cruiser, you can only have 6" guns in single mounts with hoist.
Ah! Right; I'd conceived the class as essentially more of an Armored Cruiser writ small than a true light, but it
is an escort, and listing it as one would require that...
'kay, how 'bout...
Mako, Maoria Light Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
5,725 t light; 6,042 t standard; 6,479 t normal; 6,828 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
398.34 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
121.42 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
6 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
32 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 1,442 lbs / 654 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 8.14 ft / 2.48 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 78.71 ft / 23.99 m 8.14 ft / 2.48 m
Upper: 2.36" / 60 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.79" / 20 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 18.44 ft / 5.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
3rd: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 18,152 shp / 13,541 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 786 tons
Complement:
360 - 469
Cost:
£0.467 million / $1.869 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 180 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 2,374 tons, 36.6 %
- Belts: 1,165 tons, 18.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 169 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 383 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 598 tons, 9.2 %
- Conning Tower: 59 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 825 tons, 12.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,011 tons, 31.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 754 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 335 tons, 5.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,094 lbs / 4,578 Kg = 98.0 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.61
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.637
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 33
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.43 ft / 0.74 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.7 %
Waterplane Area: 13,688 Square feet or 1,272 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 399 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.32
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
60 tons misc weight
25 tons Marconi
250 tons fire control
Class of 6:
Mako
Ururoa
Pere
Ripi
Tope
Tuatini
looks fine to me, only thing i would point out is seams a tad heavy (i consider a CL somthing in the 2-3K ton range but that could just be my bias for micro ships ^.^)
Quote from: Tanthalas on December 26, 2007, 06:59:21 PM
looks fine to me, only thing i would point out is seams a tad heavy (i consider a CL somthing in the 2-3K ton range but that could just be my bias for micro ships ^.^)
And, since I and/or the Maori have a thing for macro-ships, that'd be perfect! ^_^
Um...
I know Springsharp may think you can get 42 medium caliber guns aboard a 6,000 t ship, but I doubt any historical ship of like size comes anywhere close to that...
75mm is medium? Huh.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/Mako.jpg)
Mako, Maoria Light Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
5,071 t light; 5,292 t standard; 5,696 t normal; 6,018 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
398.34 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
121.42 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
32 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 824 lbs / 374 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 8.14 ft / 2.48 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 78.71 ft / 23.99 m 8.14 ft / 2.48 m
Upper: 2.36" / 60 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.79" / 20 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 18.44 ft / 5.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
3rd: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 16,321 shp / 12,175 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 726 tons
Complement:
327 - 426
Cost:
£0.368 million / $1.471 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 103 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 2,162 tons, 38.0 %
- Belts: 1,161 tons, 20.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 169 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 221 tons, 3.9 %
- Armour Deck: 557 tons, 9.8 %
- Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 742 tons, 13.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,729 tons, 30.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 624 tons, 11.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 335 tons, 5.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,123 lbs / 4,592 Kg = 98.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.88
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.560
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 37
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.43 ft / 0.74 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.9 %
Waterplane Area: 12,739 Square feet or 1,184 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 358 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.45
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
60 tons misc weight
25 tons Marconi
250 tons fire control
Class of 6:
Mako
Ururoa
Pere
Ripi
Tope
Tuatini
She looks French.
the 4 main guns distributed lay out is rather French.
But for the rest, I like her.
Ah, another thing. Those mounts with hoists should not have more than splinter armor (1"). It would be very difficult to train the hoists otherwise.
Even so, 8" armored mounts are full turrets with barbettes.
The rule is restrictive so that people won't build Clevelands in 1907.
Mumbles about aviation ships and other interesting things ^.^
Aviation ships should be seaplane tenders. Only those suffering a serious case of hindsightitis could justify "aircraft carriers".
Quote from: P3D on December 26, 2007, 11:44:57 PM
Aviation ships should be seaplane tenders. Only those suffering a serious case of hindsightitis could justify "aircraft carriers".
LOL actualy I personaly am not even sure we are to that point yet, aircraft Transport ships maybe But other than an old broken down GG that got striped down to nothing to conduct Experiments with aircraft I dont have any plans on building a carrier... Well yet anyway ^.^
So, wait, serious armor is verboten in light cruisers? That will never do... This class is intended to maintain a torpedo-boat screen all through a battle. Having them designed so that any idle gunner or freak miss can just make them kinda 'go away' seems extremely contrary to that purpose.
...nrrrrg. Okay, apparently I was wrong about jpg being the only format that absolutely ruined any coloring. Crap.
Mako, Maoria Escort Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
6,690 t light; 7,197 t standard; 7,683 t normal; 8,072 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
398.34 ft / 393.70 ft x 52.49 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
121.42 m / 120.00 m x 16.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
4 - 7.87" / 200 mm guns (2x2 guns), 244.10lbs / 110.72kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 2,830 lbs / 1,284 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 8.14 ft / 2.48 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 78.71 ft / 23.99 m 8.14 ft / 2.48 m
Upper: 2.36" / 60 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.79" / 20 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 18.44 ft / 5.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm - -
3rd: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 9.84" / 250 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 14,199 shp / 10,593 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 876 tons
Complement:
409 - 533
Cost:
£0.622 million / $2.487 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 354 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 2,985 tons, 38.9 %
- Belts: 1,414 tons, 18.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 169 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 620 tons, 8.1 %
- Armour Deck: 699 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 83 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 645 tons, 8.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,370 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 993 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 335 tons, 4.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,272 lbs / 5,567 Kg = 50.3 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.70
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.661
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.43 ft / 0.74 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.4 %
Waterplane Area: 15,992 Square feet or 1,486 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 451 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.18
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
60 tons misc weight
25 tons Marconi
250 tons fire control
Class of 6:
Mako
Ururoa
Pere
Ripi
Tope
Tuatini
Light cruisers during WWI had only single mounts. The Omahas has only twin gunhouses, and that's what is allowed by the 1910 cruiser tech. The first cruiser with full 6" turrets were the French Duguay-Trouin Class, laid down in 1922.
Use .png for pictures.
Mako, Maoria Light Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
5,214 t light; 5,438 t standard; 5,848 t normal; 6,176 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
398.34 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
121.42 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
32 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 824 lbs / 374 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 8.14 ft / 2.48 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 78.71 ft / 23.99 m 8.14 ft / 2.48 m
Upper: 2.36" / 60 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.79" / 20 mm 314.96 ft / 96.00 m 18.44 ft / 5.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 1.57" / 40 mm
3rd: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 16,675 shp / 12,440 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 737 tons
Complement:
333 - 434
Cost:
£0.375 million / $1.500 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 103 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 2,307 tons, 39.5 %
- Belts: 1,368 tons, 23.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 169 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 150 tons, 2.6 %
- Armour Deck: 565 tons, 9.7 %
- Conning Tower: 55 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 758 tons, 13.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,711 tons, 29.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 634 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 335 tons, 5.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,538 lbs / 4,780 Kg = 102.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.88
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.575
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.43 ft / 0.74 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.4 %
Waterplane Area: 12,920 Square feet or 1,200 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 352 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.43
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
60 tons misc weight
25 tons Marconi
250 tons fire control
Class of 6:
Mako
Ururoa
Pere
Ripi
Tope
Tuatini
Final draft. Before anyone calls the armor excessive, I'd like to note that this class is intended to for a mission that would make the avoidance of enemy battleships impossible. They're designed to be able to take it, instead.
The mounts should still have only splinter (1") protection. This design offers almost no savings and no advantage whatsoever over the armored cruisers. And 2kts speed advantage is not enough to act as a separate screen - aim for a 4kts difference at least.
Have two twin 8" mounts and 25kts speed. I'd also note that the belt is extremely shallow and there might be a good chance of an underbelt hit.
I like, however, that you really want to do make some nonconventional fleet, without using hindsight.
Does Maoria have already discovered, easily accessible oil deposits?
I herewith proclaim that Maoria produces a little less than Austria - 1 million tonnes/7bbl (or the other way around).
Search for new fields continues.
Borys
Quote from: P3D on December 30, 2007, 12:55:03 PM
The mounts should still have only splinter (1") protection. This design offers almost no savings and no advantage whatsoever over the armored cruisers. And 2kts speed advantage is not enough to act as a separate screen - aim for a 4kts difference at least.
Have two twin 8" mounts and 25kts speed. I'd also note that the belt is extremely shallow and there might be a good chance of an underbelt hit.
I tried that and it got shouted down, recall. Also, first, Maori screening procedures do not
call for a separate group of light ships - they are
integral to the battle line. Second, we obviously have different definitions of splinters. ^_^
3" is not splinter protection.
I have no problem with twin 200mm turrets on barbettes having 280mm armor. I have problems putting them on mounts 'with hoist'.
Splinter protection - would that be from 0,5 to 1,5 inch? Or up to 2"?
Borys
Quote from: Borys on December 30, 2007, 04:12:45 PM
Splinter protection - would that be from 0,5 to 1,5 inch? Or up to 2"?
Borys
I think around half of all light cruisers in the world (navalism) have around 50mm gunshields.
Ma, Maoria Customs Boat laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
83 t light; 85 t standard; 91 t normal; 95 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
142.60 ft / 131.23 ft x 9.84 ft x 4.92 ft (normal load)
43.46 m / 40.00 m x 3.00 m x 1.50 m
Armament:
1 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
3 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (1x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1910 Model
Machine guns in deck mount
on centreline aft
3 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (1x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1910 Model
Machine guns in deck mount
on side amidships
Weight of broadside 4 lbs / 2 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 0
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 301 shp / 225 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10 tons
Complement:
14 - 19
Cost:
£0.005 million / $0.021 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 14 tons, 15.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 44 tons, 48.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8 tons, 8.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 27.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40 lbs / 18 Kg = 10.5 x 2.0 " / 50 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 0.72
Metacentric height 0.1 ft / 0.0 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 13.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 11.46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 7.58 ft / 2.31 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m (6.56 ft / 2.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 7.35 ft / 2.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.9 %
Waterplane Area: 827 Square feet or 77 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 161 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 14 lbs/sq ft or 70 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.77
- Longitudinal: 10.91
- Overall: 1.00
Caution: Poor stability - excessive risk of capsizing
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc Weights 1 ton
Short-Range Wireless 5 tons
Ama 12 tons
Ama booms 7 tons
Real beam 13m; real stability 1.50; Machine gun mounts are 3-barrel gatling types.
Quote from: Valles on December 30, 2007, 04:34:56 PM
Machine gun mounts are 3-barrel gatling types.
Oh, did Maoria miss Maxim's, Hotchkiss', and tutti quanti's inventions?
Borys
Thanks to that remark, Korpen, I found a flaw in my Quebec light cruisers.
2" Front splinter shields, but 5" weathershield.
Now changed to a more "logical" configuration. The weight that came available went into mount and hoist on those ships.
But the shields are still 2"
QuoteOh, did Maoria miss Maxim's, Hotchkiss', and tutti quanti's inventions?
Yes and no. They're aware of them, but they like sustained fire guns and their natively developed version of a man-portable gatling was lighter than the water-cooled versions of the imported guns.
Also, Maori infantry tech is tres crappy. I'm in the market for anyone willing to sell better, BTW. ^_^ I'll likely stick with gatling types even after, though. I think they make an interesting contrast...
If you let me recruit for the Foreign Legion, I'll train your army :)
The gatlings you have are hand-cranked - otherwise they weight like a water cooled two pounder Maxim :) - aka the pom-pom
Borys
Your close by neighbor, French Polynesia, is always being welcoming for Maorian traders, tourists and invaders.
Maybe a hint.... :)
Non-mobile mschanical steam powered versions might be amusing....
QuoteNon-mobile mschanical steam powered versions might be amusing....
Especially since they'd've started life as experiments, preparatory to finding out how well the concept can be made to scale up.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/Ma.png)
A Ma-class customs vessel.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/MaoriAirship.png)
A Type 3 Royal Air Corps rigid. 1 10,000 hp lightweight steam turbine driving, via shaft, 4 steerable 12 foot props. Top speed about... *looks up the Rules on airships* ...crap. I'd misremembered the volume limits, this is the next-generation design rather than the current one.
Mrgh.
Rohan might be interested in the steam-powered airships.
QuoteRohan might be interested in the steam-powered airships.
They are for sale. ^_^
Kerykeion, Maoria Battleship laid down 1898 (Engine 1902)
Displacement:
17,823 t light; 18,196 t standard; 18,667 t normal; 19,043 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
596.99 ft / 590.55 ft x 98.43 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
181.96 m / 180.00 m x 30.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1898 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 7.87" / 200 mm guns in single mounts, 244.10lbs / 110.72kg shells, 1898 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1898 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1898 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,175 lbs / 2,801 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 0
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 383.86 ft / 117.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 7.87" / 200 mm 206.66 ft / 62.99 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Upper: 7.87" / 200 mm 383.86 ft / 117.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 7.87" / 200 mm - -
3rd: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
4th: 1.57" / 40 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 10,194 ihp / 7,605 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 847 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
798 - 1,038
Cost:
£1.488 million / $5.954 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 772 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 7,602 tons, 40.7 %
- Belts: 4,716 tons, 25.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,502 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,205 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 179 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,545 tons, 8.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,724 tons, 41.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 844 tons, 4.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 180 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
45,011 lbs / 20,417 Kg = 54.6 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.30
Metacentric height 7.8 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.57
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.571
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 28 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.22 ft / 0.98 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Stern: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 226.8 %
Waterplane Area: 41,372 Square feet or 3,844 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 696 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
180 tons misc weights
Class of two, laid down 1898:
Kerykeion
AsclepiusThese two just came out of rebuilt in 1909H2.
Kerykeion, Maoria Battleship laid down 1898 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
17,238 t light; 17,600 t standard; 18,078 t normal; 18,461 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
597.46 ft / 590.55 ft x 98.43 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
182.10 m / 180.00 m x 30.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1898 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1898 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1898 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1898 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 5,870 lbs / 2,662 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 0
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 354.33 ft / 108.00 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Ends: 7.87" / 200 mm 236.19 ft / 71.99 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 354.33 ft / 108.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 354.33 ft / 108.00 m 18.34 ft / 5.59 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
4th: 1.57" / 40 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 14,993 shp / 11,184 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 861 tons
Complement:
779 - 1,013
Cost:
£1.315 million / $5.260 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 734 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 7,141 tons, 39.5 %
- Belts: 3,553 tons, 19.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 379 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 1,850 tons, 10.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,185 tons, 6.6 %
- Conning Tower: 175 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 681 tons, 3.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,227 tons, 45.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 840 tons, 4.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 455 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,077 lbs / 24,982 Kg = 66.9 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 12.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.51
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.553
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 33 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.22 ft / 0.98 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Stern: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.23 ft / 7.08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 228.4 %
Waterplane Area: 40,679 Square feet or 3,779 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 750 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
180 tons misc weights
250 tons Fire Control
25 tons long-range wireless
Class of two, laid down 1898, rebuilt 1909:
Kerykeion
Asclepius
Quote from: Valles on December 30, 2007, 11:36:56 PM
Kerykeion, Maoria Battleship laid down 1898 (Engine 1909)
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1898 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Did you intend for single mounts, i.e. four single turrets, or perhaps two twins?
Whups! Yes, those should be a pair of 2-gun turrets, yeah. ^_^;;;
Maki, Maoria Escort Cruiser laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
5,894 t light; 6,128 t standard; 6,832 t normal; 7,395 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
388.66 ft / 380.58 ft x 52.49 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
118.46 m / 116.00 m x 16.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
6 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1910 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
32 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 1,030 lbs / 467 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.45" / 240 mm 266.40 ft / 81.20 m 8.69 ft / 2.65 m
Ends: 4.72" / 120 mm 114.14 ft / 34.79 m 8.69 ft / 2.65 m
Upper: 2.36" / 60 mm 266.40 ft / 81.20 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.79" / 20 mm 266.40 ft / 81.20 m 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 2.36" / 60 mm
2nd: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 7.09" / 180 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 19,257 shp / 14,365 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,267 tons
Complement:
375 - 488
Cost:
£0.437 million / $1.748 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 129 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 2,333 tons, 34.2 %
- Belts: 1,319 tons, 19.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 145 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 171 tons, 2.5 %
- Armour Deck: 643 tons, 9.4 %
- Conning Tower: 55 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 875 tons, 12.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,181 tons, 31.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 938 tons, 13.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 5.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,848 lbs / 6,281 Kg = 134.5 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 84 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.608
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.51 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 4.04 ft / 1.23 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Stern: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.7 %
Waterplane Area: 14,721 Square feet or 1,368 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 78 lbs/sq ft or 381 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 4.16
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
100 tons assorted random weights
250 tons fire control
25 tons long-range wireless
Class of 6:
Maki
Tupoupou
Terehu
Aihe
Upokohue
Iheihe
The first class of ships to be built under Maoria's new policy of openness; essentially they're repeat Makos.
Ahoj!
Could you draw that?
I'd love to see those 16 three incher in two storey arrangement on each side.
Borys
The Mako class has the same secondary battery... but yeah, I'm planning to draw all of the Maori's ships eventually.
Behold! Pictures!
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/Maki.png)
Maki class, as promised.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/Tahekapatu-1.png)
And the Wahaketoke class, which mutated under the pen as I got a better look at how they were put together.
Wow...
The prolific anti-TB guns made a few of my destroyer skippers pee in their pants when they were handed the new sketches for their recognition manuals. They already 'rechristened' the Mako class as the Porcupine and the Wahaketoke as the Briar Patch.
The word "hedgehog" did cross my mind ...
Borys
Italian Comanders remarked on the old Phalanx Infantry formation...
And the NUS is remineded of the fight to unify the former colonies across the Andes, where there seemed to be something shooting out of every crack in the mountain.
The comparison to a phalanx is quite apt. A schiltron would be an even better one. ^_^
Not having any useful ones to benchmark with themselves, the Maori tend to take torpedoes and torpedo-boats very seriously.
What they'll do once I'm allowed to build turreted secondaries will be worse, though.
Muahahahahaha!
LOL dont get them started... I already tryed to build Dante... Mostly cause I wanted somthing Wierd ^.^
Dante?
Anyway, I don't think weird is the word. There are real examples of what I'm planning in service today, after all.
Quote from: Valles on January 07, 2008, 01:21:43 AM
Dante?
Anyway, I don't think weird is the word. There are real examples of what I'm planning in service today, after all.
He means the Italian BB Dante Aligheri.
Gentlemen, we have the technology. We can rebuild them. We can make them stronger, tougher...
Koikoi, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
31,112 t light; 32,488 t standard; 34,486 t normal; 36,084 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
708.47 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
215.94 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
12 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (4x3 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
32 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, 16 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 11,945 lbs / 5,418 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 423.23 ft / 129.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 282.12 ft / 85.99 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 705.38 ft / 215.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 423.23 ft / 129.00 m 22.18 ft / 6.76 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
4th: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 5.51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines plus steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 22,527 ihp / 16,805 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,595 tons
Complement:
1,264 - 1,644
Cost:
£2.494 million / $9.978 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,493 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 14,663 tons, 42.5 %
- Belts: 4,724 tons, 13.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 547 tons, 1.6 %
- Armament: 3,157 tons, 9.2 %
- Armour Deck: 5,965 tons, 17.3 %
- Conning Tower: 270 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1,081 tons, 3.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,350 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,374 tons, 9.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
93,701 lbs / 42,502 Kg = 113.7 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 16.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.61
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.757
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 31 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Stern: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Average freeboard: 26.51 ft / 8.08 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 56.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 231.4 %
Waterplane Area: 58,499 Square feet or 5,435 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 830 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia
Class of three, laid down 1906 rebuilt 1912:
Koikoi
Ririate
Whakakaha
You are replacing a 3000t machinery with an 1000t one.
You also want to completely change the armament of the ship.
And completely remove the armor plating and installing new ones.
Adding new armor, turrets and armament is around 10BP and that's not counting the removing and installation of new bulkheads.
That would be why I called it a rebuild, yes. And how much would a completely new battleship to similar standards cost? About three times that. And most of the armoring is in fact unchanged, though perhaps it would need to be reinstalled to match the new hull form.
Im actualy agonizing over much the same problem. Sink Huge amounts of cash and materials into my 1901 BBs or just say frell it and build new ones
I stand corrected, somehow I misread the armor thicknesses.
For me it's not really that hard a choice. I'm rather shorter of BP than most of us here, so I need to squeeze them 'till they squeal. Also, those who took issue with giving the Koikois new turrets should look at the date for this lot's.
Kerykeion, Maoria Battleship laid down 1898 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
21,074 t light; 21,978 t standard; 23,440 t normal; 24,609 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
597.46 ft / 590.55 ft x 98.43 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
182.10 m / 180.00 m x 30.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
8 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (4x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1898 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 7,620 lbs / 3,457 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 354.33 ft / 108.00 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Ends: 7.87" / 200 mm 236.19 ft / 71.99 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 354.33 ft / 108.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 354.33 ft / 108.00 m 18.34 ft / 5.59 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
4th: 1.57" / 40 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 18,586 shp / 13,865 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,631 tons
Complement:
946 - 1,231
Cost:
£1.641 million / $6.566 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 953 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 9,225 tons, 39.4 %
- Belts: 3,578 tons, 15.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 379 tons, 1.6 %
- Armament: 2,304 tons, 9.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,756 tons, 11.8 %
- Conning Tower: 208 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 741 tons, 3.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,700 tons, 41.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,366 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 455 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
67,760 lbs / 30,736 Kg = 82.3 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 13.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.717
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.22 ft / 0.98 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Stern: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.23 ft / 7.08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 218.7 %
Waterplane Area: 47,297 Square feet or 4,394 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 125 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 779 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
180 tons misc weights
250 tons Fire Control
25 tons long-range wireless
Class of two, laid down 1898, rebuilt 1909, 1914:
Kerykeion
Asclepius
the Problem I have is that even though My BP is Extreamly limited, I built my original BBs to damn small. at just 350' in length honestly their curent escorts are larger than they are.
This is one of the reasons the Maori tend to favor gigantism - it gives them plenty to work with when the time comes to do something that wasn't part of the original plan.
And speaking of 'not the original plan'...
Wahakatoke, Maoria Armored Cruiser laid down 1900 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
11,572 t light; 12,051 t standard; 12,973 t normal; 13,711 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
461.56 ft / 459.32 ft x 65.62 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
140.68 m / 140.00 m x 20.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
3 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
2 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
40 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1900 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
24 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 4,634 lbs / 2,102 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 275.59 ft / 84.00 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 183.69 ft / 55.99 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 275.59 ft / 84.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 275.59 ft / 84.00 m 21.56 ft / 6.57 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 12,568 shp / 9,376 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,659 tons
Complement:
607 - 790
Cost:
£0.962 million / $3.847 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 579 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 5,601 tons, 43.2 %
- Belts: 2,170 tons, 16.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 346 tons, 2.7 %
- Armament: 1,254 tons, 9.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,691 tons, 13.0 %
- Conning Tower: 140 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 501 tons, 3.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,485 tons, 34.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,401 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 405 tons, 3.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,707 lbs / 12,568 Kg = 33.6 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.77
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.656
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 28
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.21 ft / 0.37 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.4 %
Waterplane Area: 23,215 Square feet or 2,157 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 621 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.97
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
130 tons misc. unplanned weights
25 tons Marconi
250 tons fire control
Class of 2, laid down 1900 rebuilt 1914:
Wahakatoke
Taomatuku
Annnnnd...
Tahekapatu, Maoria Armored Cruiser laid down 1900 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
12,206 t light; 12,730 t standard; 13,685 t normal; 14,449 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
461.56 ft / 459.32 ft x 65.62 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
140.68 m / 140.00 m x 20.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
2 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
24 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1900 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
24 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 5,252 lbs / 2,382 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 275.59 ft / 84.00 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 183.69 ft / 55.99 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 275.59 ft / 84.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 275.59 ft / 84.00 m 22.28 ft / 6.79 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 13,117 shp / 9,785 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,719 tons
Complement:
632 - 822
Cost:
£1.052 million / $4.207 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 656 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 5,929 tons, 43.3 %
- Belts: 2,174 tons, 15.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 358 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 1,504 tons, 11.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,747 tons, 12.8 %
- Conning Tower: 146 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 523 tons, 3.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,693 tons, 34.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,479 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 405 tons, 3.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,447 lbs / 12,450 Kg = 33.3 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.75
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.692
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 29
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.21 ft / 0.37 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.3 %
Waterplane Area: 23,985 Square feet or 2,228 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 635 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.91
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
130 tons misc. unplanned weights
25 tons Marconi
250 tons fire control
Class of 2, laid down 1900 rebuilt 1912:
Tahekapatu
Pouakai
Quote from: Valles on January 12, 2008, 07:48:18 PM
Gentlemen, we have the technology. We can rebuild them. We can make them stronger, tougher...
Koikoi, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1912)
Class of three, laid down 1906 rebuilt 1912:
Koikoi
Ririate
Whakakaha
That is not a rebuild, it is a case of scrapping and reusing components!
The changes to the armament, in combination with the changes to the engines plant and most importantly, the addition of a TB means that pretty much everything behind the hull plates have to be changed, and almost nothing of the original structure can be reused.
Quote from: Valles on January 13, 2008, 12:25:42 AM
This is one of the reasons the Maori tend to favor gigantism - it gives them plenty to work with when the time comes to do something that wasn't part of the original plan.
And speaking of 'not the original plan'...
Wahakatoke, Maoria Armored Cruiser laid down 1900 (Engine 1912)
Tahekapatu, Maoria Armored Cruiser laid down 1900 (Engine 1912)
I think my argument goes for all of these rebuilds; you are changing so much of the interior architecture of the ships that you are replacing more of the ship then you are keeping. Also the addition and removal of barbarettes also means that most of the load bearing parts of the ships needs reconstruction. Basically it is new ships, were you are using the hull plating of an old one.
After taking a quick look at the numbers, I think that just reusing the armour on new ships will not be any more expensive then theses rebuilds.
Unless of course they got harvey armour, then just scrap.
More tinkering with future concepts. This time, torpedo ships. Though this design doesn't show it, its torpedo mounts are designed to be easily swappable with whatever new type gets developed. Anyway, this is much more of a 'big-boned destroyer' than the light cruiser it qualifies as under the game rules. Crew is extremely minimal for a ship this size, barely a hundred. I went for this because, one, new types of destroyers got prioritized out of the budget and I could build this straight-away, and two, getting a decent seaboat rating out of a destroyer is a trick that has as yet eluded me.
Study TA-1910, Maoria 2nd Rate (Torpedo) laid down 1912
Displacement:
1,139 t light; 1,188 t standard; 1,304 t normal; 1,398 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
299.81 ft / 295.28 ft x 29.53 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
91.38 m / 90.00 m x 9.00 m x 3.00 m
Armament:
2 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 257 lbs / 117 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
12 - 15.7" / 400 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 14,155 shp / 10,559 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 210 tons
Complement:
108 - 141
Cost:
£0.141 million / $0.563 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 32 tons, 2.5 %
Machinery: 527 tons, 40.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 536 tons, 41.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 165 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 44 tons, 3.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
789 lbs / 358 Kg = 7.7 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.532
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m (9.84 ft / 3.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 153.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.6 %
Waterplane Area: 5,983 Square feet or 556 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 46 lbs/sq ft or 226 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 2.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: Valles on January 13, 2008, 10:22:18 AM
More tinkering with future concepts. This time, torpedo ships. Though this design doesn't show it, its torpedo mounts are designed to be easily swappable with whatever new type gets developed. Anyway, this is much more of a 'big-boned destroyer' than the light cruiser it qualifies as under the game rules. Crew is extremely minimal for a ship this size, barely a hundred. I went for this because, one, new types of destroyers got prioritized out of the budget and I could build this straight-away, and two, getting a decent seaboat rating out of a destroyer is a trick that has as yet eluded me.
Study TA-1910, Maoria 2nd Rate (Torpedo) laid down 1912
What is the point of the ship? She is too big, slow, and vulnerable to be used for torpedo attacks. And she lacks the firepower to make up for it or be used for screening, in fact many of the TBs in the world outgun her. With 12 torpedo tubes she have too many, torpedoes are expensive, and considering the performance of the torpedoes firing more then two or three is not likely to increase the hit probability.
*I am harsh with the purpose of encouraging some debate. ;)
Ahoj!
Destroyers need not have a decent seagoing rating :)
Borys
They do if they want to survive the Maori's southern territorial waters - which they'd need to. That's basically much of the point, in fact - not to break in half if the Latitude South 60 winter decides to sneeze on them wrong.
The rules account for destroyers considerably larger than this design. Her guns are an attempt to force a little respect, not something actually involved in her mission. Worthwhile armor is impossible on this tonnage. Improved torpedoes are an absolute certainty by the time she'd enter service. I thought a two-deck torpedo armament would be interesting. She's considerably faster than any battle line in the world. Scouting is what airships are for.
Anyone who thinks they can do better is invited to step forward; the Maori aren't too proud to steal something they consider a good idea.
ETA: Really what I'd like to do would be to operate MTBs off of some kind of mothership, but if destroyers are tricky with SS then planing boats or hydrofoils are totally impossible.
Quote from: Valles on January 13, 2008, 11:40:11 AM
They do if they want to survive the Maori's southern territorial waters - which they'd need to. That's basically much of the point, in fact - not to break in half if the Latitude South 60 winter decides to sneeze on them wrong.
Two things: first, Springsharp;s seakeeping rating is first relative the size and speed of the ship, and it does not tell how good a ship is at surviving bad weather.
Second: What the hell do you have down there that needs main fleet units to defend? If the weather is atrocious there will be no real civilian shipping, and an enemy would be just as badly affected, if not more so as it it far from home. For just showing the flag a dedicated cutter seems better.
QuoteThe rules account for destroyers considerably larger than this design. Her guns are an attempt to force a little respect, not something actually involved in her mission. Worthwhile armor is impossible on this tonnage. Improved torpedoes are an absolute certainty by the time she'd enter service. I thought a two-deck torpedo armament would be interesting. She's considerably faster than any battle line in the world. Scouting is what airships are for.
My comment about torpedoes goes for all of the tech levels (at least until the 1913 or 1918 level).
That she is somewhat faster then a battle line is irrelevant, the shells from that line are faster still. She do not have the size or the armour needed to slowly close against an enemy that is shooting back, or have screening units of their own. Nor does she have the speed to close in any other way then slowly. Finally the two 15cm guns that are her only real armament is really not enough to give respect, they have to low ROF in this situation to cause fear in enemy screening TBs and cruisers, and they are too few for efficiency at longer ranges.
Airships as scouts ahev the drawback that they are very weather dependent.
QuoteETA: Really what I'd like to do would be to operate MTBs off of some kind of mothership, but if destroyers are tricky with SS then planing boats or hydrofoils are totally impossible.
That is not really a strange concept, i know both Italian and Austrian battleships at some time during the 1800s carried TBs aboard. I would recomend just finding som historic design and copy that. But do not be suprised by the fact that MTBs was slower then real TBs.
These are more reconstructions than rebuilds.
TB motherships? There is one around.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=337.0
Quote from: Korpen on January 13, 2008, 12:11:13 PM
Two things: first, Springsharp;s seakeeping rating is first relative the size and speed of the ship, and it does not tell how good a ship is at surviving bad weather.
Yes, but the mods have a standing threat to enforce 'storm damage' on destroyer class ships.
QuoteSecond: What the hell do you have down there that needs main fleet units to defend?
My biggest harbor! This is like asking why an Icelandic fleet would need to cope with the North Atlantic...
QuoteMy comment about torpedoes goes for all of the tech levels (at least until the 1913 or 1918 level).
That she is somewhat faster then a battle line is irrelevant, the shells from that line are faster still. She do not have the size or the armour needed to slowly close against an enemy that is shooting back, or have screening units of their own. Nor does she have the speed to close in any other way then slowly. Finally the two 15cm guns that are her only real armament is really not enough to give respect, they have to low ROF in this situation to cause fear in enemy screening TBs and cruisers, and they are too few for efficiency at longer ranges.
I sincerely doubt that an enemy capital ship commander would agree with your assessment of what her main armament is.
Besides, if she's so bad,
show me something better.
QuoteAirships as scouts have the drawback that they are very weather dependent.
And how likely is it that an enemy is going to decide to pick a fight mid-storm?
QuoteThat is not really a strange concept, i know both Italian and Austrian battleships at some time during the 1800s carried TBs aboard. I would recomend just finding som historic design and copy that. But do not be suprised by the fact that MTBs was slower then real TBs.
...weren't you just complaining about how anything less than thirty knots was far too slow? ^_^
Anyway, that's the reason I mentioned planing and hydrofoils. The latter, according to my research, were doing forty knots as civilian prototypes right around our 'current day'.
we are unfortunatly (in my opinion anyway) in the era of Turbina, and a few other very fast Civilian types. the problem arises in that they are simply imposible to sim.
Quote from: Valles on January 13, 2008, 02:19:03 PM
My biggest harbor! This is like asking why an Icelandic fleet would need to cope with the North Atlantic...
First, Iceland does not have a navy.... :P
Ok, took for granted that the northern half was the more populous one as that one does not have sub-antarctic climate.
QuoteI sincerely doubt that an enemy capital ship commander would agree with your assessment of what her main armament is.
12 Torpedoes sound very scary until you realise that you have to close to at most 2000m if you want to hit anything...
And until she is that close, her effective firepower is no better then ships half her size.
QuoteBesides, if she's so bad, show me something better.
Impossible until you explain what you want. Is it a torpedo attack craft you want, or is it a general patrol ship you are seeking?
At the moment she is combining the speed of a patrol ship with the (lack of) armament of an attack craft.
QuoteAnd how likely is it that an enemy is going to decide to pick a fight mid-storm?
Storms are no the only conditions, fog, strong rain or snow can all ground an airship.
QuoteAnyway, that's the reason I mentioned planing and hydrofoils. The latter, according to my research, were doing forty knots as civilian prototypes right around our 'current day'.
As long as you are running on a pond yes, but were you not talking about the southern ocean?...
looking at the large destroyer and comments I'd say she is a tiny unprotected cruiser or a torpedo sloop. The mentionof moderators standing orders for (storm accidents to happen to destroyers" was for ships with destroyer like hulls (Cross-sectional of 0.50) Your ship's Cross-sectional is 0.88 which is low but fuctional.
This ship seems to fit the roll of a destroyer leader in size, though not speed. However since Maoria (as far as I can remember) has no destroyers, this is about their lightest torpedo delivery vessel that can actively engage torpedo boats. (A destroyer) It may not be the best choice, or a good choice, but that would be best deturmined by war games or actual combat.
The Maori have no torpedo craft nor will for several years. TA/1910 is one of a series of paper studies done as a way of playing with the possibilities of torpedo warfare... in other words, she serves as one data point in the simulated spreadsheet of their forming torpedo doctrine.
Frex... take this pure parasite craft, a sort of trimaran quasi-Turbinia. I figure her actual speed should be 33 knots or so.
TB/1910, Maoria Motor Torpedo Boat laid down 1910 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
65 t light; 67 t standard; 69 t normal; 69 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
104.99 ft / 104.99 ft x 9.84 ft x 4.92 ft (normal load)
32.00 m / 32.00 m x 3.00 m x 1.50 m
Armament:
1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
6 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1910 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 13 lbs / 6 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 15.7" / 400 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 1 shaft, 2,768 shp / 2,065 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 200nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 tons
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
11 - 15
Cost:
£0.009 million / $0.035 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 2.4 %
Machinery: 37 tons, 53.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 22 tons, 31.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 tons, 5.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5 tons, 7.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3 lbs / 2 Kg = 0.3 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 0.73
Metacentric height 0.1 ft / 0.0 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 36 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.51
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.472
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 10.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 78 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 6.82 ft / 2.08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 199.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): -36.5 %
Waterplane Area: 642 Square feet or 60 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 29 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 10 lbs/sq ft or 47 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.36
- Longitudinal: 8.84
- Overall: 0.50
Caution: Poor stability - excessive risk of capsizing
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability
Outriggers, 0.5t each
Torpedoes*4, 1t each
Or perhaps this one?
TC/1910, Maoria 2nd Rate laid down 1910 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
4,465 t light; 4,605 t standard; 5,128 t normal; 5,546 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
366.33 ft / 360.89 ft x 39.37 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
111.66 m / 110.00 m x 12.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x16 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mount
on side amidships
Weight of broadside 618 lbs / 280 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
12 - 15.7" / 400 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 216.54 ft / 66.00 m 7.51 ft / 2.29 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 144.32 ft / 43.99 m 7.51 ft / 2.29 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 216.54 ft / 66.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 56,844 shp / 42,406 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 940 tons
Complement:
302 - 393
Cost:
£0.538 million / $2.154 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 77 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 647 tons, 12.6 %
- Belts: 634 tons, 12.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,267 tons, 44.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,450 tons, 28.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 663 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 0.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,157 lbs / 979 Kg = 21.0 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.87
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.97 ft / 0.60 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 154.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.0 %
Waterplane Area: 9,916 Square feet or 921 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 70 lbs/sq ft or 340 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 3.33
- Overall: 1.03
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
A revised proposal for the updated Koikois, leaving the turrets alone and using an external bulge instead of an internal TDS.
Koikoi, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
28,553 t light; 30,113 t standard; 32,733 t normal; 34,830 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
708.47 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft (Bulges 111.55 ft) x 22.97 ft (normal load)
215.94 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m (Bulges 34.00 m) x 7.00 m
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 10,092 lbs / 4,578 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 423.23 ft / 129.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 282.12 ft / 85.99 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 705.38 ft / 215.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.57" / 40 mm 423.23 ft / 129.00 m 22.18 ft / 6.76 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
4th: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 5.51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines plus steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 21,460 ihp / 16,009 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,717 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,216 - 1,581
Cost:
£2.218 million / $8.870 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,261 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 13,631 tons, 41.6 %
- Belts: 4,709 tons, 14.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 547 tons, 1.7 %
- Armament: 2,771 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 5,344 tons, 16.3 %
- Conning Tower: 260 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1,132 tons, 3.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,003 tons, 36.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,180 tons, 12.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
79,986 lbs / 36,281 Kg = 97.1 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 17.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.44
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.634
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 30 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
- Stern: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.6 %
Waterplane Area: 52,408 Square feet or 4,869 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 165 lbs/sq ft or 805 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia
Class of three:
Koikoi
Ririate
Whakakaha
Is it early to be needed bulges on warships..especially four year old warships (which would not have been in service for much more than a year as it would take at least 38 months to complete, plus nearly a half year shake down cruise)?
QuoteIs it early to be needed bulges on warships... especially four year old warships (which would not have been in service for much more than a year as it would take at least 38 months to complete, plus nearly a half year shake down cruise)?
Considering that the tech rules kept me from being able to include torpedo protection in them from the ground up, no, I don't really think so. Also, this would be a couple of years in the future, still, for what little that's worth.
I will note that torpedos are still not all that effective in this time period. Sure there are exception and anomolies that happened in the last war, but for the most part, a torpedo has in general a 10% chance to hit...usually worse. This is after getting into range and getting through any larger gunfire and the quickfire/anti-torpedo boat guns. Range for torpedo launching is short range 20hm or less for the better torpedoes (some heavy models are said to be able to run up to 40hm, but I don't think any country in Navalism has them), and 10hm for the lighter torpedoes than most of the older torpedo boats are armed with. Also most torpedo boats and destroyers are short range craft. This means defensive for the most part. Swiss and Japanese forces had difficulty getting there torpedo forces out to some places due to range restrictions or problems maintaining the vessels on station for any given length of time.
(Below water torpedoe tubes...even those from submarines, have a worse chance to hit due to limited firing arcs)
Maybe. Maybe. But recall that those three were built using 1902-grade engines. They need replacing at some point, anyway - so, might as well fix another weakness while they're in.
as long as you arnt at war with the MK you dont have to wory about any 700 torpedo launches, ok so I can do 450 but thats only if I had the whole fleet together (Note odds of that ever hapening are slim to none and slim already left town) in any case my "Torpedo Boats" are more like destroyers that had a few torpedo tubes bolted to their decks as an afterthought.
Below water/not trainable torpedo tubes works almost as fine as trainable one. Torpedoes are equipped with a gyroscope, so they can be set to take a course, that is e.g. 60o from the launching direction.
I think installing a torpedo bulkhead might be possible - the engine volume being 1/3rd it was, but nevertheless expensive.
Of course it is design specific and based on a fictional land and style. Hindsight can be one's worst enemy.
Maoria is in a seemingly unique situation of being a power that is more or less alone, yet also surrounded. Questions on the knowledge they would have with very little combat experiance against modern opponents, and what information they would get from the outside world on others combat experiances would show how advanced their thinking would be in relation to their potential opponents. Also their enviroment dictacts some design types that are not normal for European and American powers, and less common for Asian and other Pacific powers in some respects. The local waters do lend themselves to smaller vessel easily it seems. It is some disance to the nearest large body of land (roughly 3,000-3,500+ miles in any direction except south), so either the locals will have long range or decide to stay local.
Quote from: Ithekro on January 14, 2008, 11:04:44 AM
I will note that torpedos are still not all that effective in this time period. Sure there are exception and anomolies that happened in the last war, but for the most part, a torpedo has in general a 10% chance to hit...usually worse.
...And that is a generous starting point, considering so high hit as 10% was never achieved, in www2 the Japanese had a overall hit % of about 6,8%, and the UK a bit over 7% (as they shot at shorter distance).
Generally the relative positioning is of huge importance in torpedo warfare, if the target is angling away the chance of a successful hit is only a fraction compared to hitting a ship angling towards the shooter. Pure stern shot should not even be worth rolling about.
QuoteMaoria is in a seemingly unique situation of being a power that is more or less alone, yet also surrounded. Questions on the knowledge they would have with very little combat experiance against modern opponents, and what information they would get from the outside world on others combat experiances would show how advanced their thinking would be in relation to their potential opponents. Also their enviroment dictacts some design types that are not normal for European and American powers, and less common for Asian and other Pacific powers in some respects. The local waters do lend themselves to smaller vessel easily it seems. It is some distance to the nearest large body of land (roughly 3,000-3,500+ miles in any direction except south), so either the locals will have long range or decide to stay local.
Local waters
do lend themselves? ^_^;
Anyway, the Maori do and have paid close attention to the experiences of others.
Thunder Rage, Maoria Support Cruiser laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
9,305 t light; 9,582 t standard; 13,817 t normal; 17,204 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
387.14 ft / 387.14 ft x 59.06 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
118.00 m / 118.00 m x 18.00 m x 7.00 m
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 14,895 shp / 11,112 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 40,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,623 tons
Complement:
636 - 828
Cost:
£0.420 million / $1.682 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 677 tons, 4.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,538 tons, 32.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,511 tons, 32.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,090 tons, 29.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28,267 lbs / 12,822 Kg = 2,196.0 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.79
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.921
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.56 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 28
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
- Stern: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.34 ft / 6.20 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 49.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.8 %
Waterplane Area: 22,017 Square feet or 2,045 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 254 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 667 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.61
- Longitudinal: 3.60
- Overall: 1.75
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily
Crew totals:
24 core crew (remain aboard at all times, including surgeon, captain, etc)
120 boat crew (8 15-man boats; serve as maintenance staff)
Cargo carried:
4000 tons fuel oil
80 tons torpedoes
10 tons derricks
800 tons MTBs
3200 tons mission-specific
Military ships carry large crews for a number of reasons, but by my understanding the biggest one is that it gives them a lot of bodies to throw at damage control. The problem is that crews need fed, trained, and paid.
The Support Cruiser concept is designed such that, given that it's essentially a civilian freighter with military cargo, it's cheap enough to be outright written off whenever necessary. How cheap, though, I'm not sure, since the rules for civilian-standard ships say that it's a quarter the usual SS-modified price, but have no instructions on how to derive that.
1/4th (dispacement - machinery) + machinery =>
(9305-677)/4+677 ~ 2.8BP
If misc weight representing cargo is not counted : 1.8BP *
1/4th cost + machinery x 2 = 4.2/4 + 0.677x2 = $2.4
*: by current rules misc weight must be paid with BP too
TD-1910, Maoria 4th Rate (Storm) laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
748 t light; 789 t standard; 895 t normal; 980 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
264.89 ft / 262.47 ft x 22.97 ft x 10.17 ft (normal load)
80.74 m / 80.00 m x 7.00 m x 3.10 m
Armament:
2 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 258 lbs / 117 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 15,731 shp / 11,736 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 191 tons
Complement:
81 - 106
Cost:
£0.112 million / $0.449 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 32 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 7 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 7 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 421 tons, 47.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 278 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 147 tons, 16.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 9 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
264 lbs / 120 Kg = 2.6 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 10.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.51
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.98 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 13.56 ft / 4.13 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75.8 %
Waterplane Area: 4,057 Square feet or 377 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 125 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 4.48
- Overall: 0.62
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Based both in and out of character on the Confederate F-01 design. I'll probably build at least a few of both some version of this and the Support Cruiser type, but I'm thinking that the latter will end up being the lion's share. MTBs are much cheaper for the strict torpedo delivery role, and the motherships will be good for a lot of other things. The only problem with the plan is how desperately SS will bite into their capablities...
Quote from: Valles on January 17, 2008, 06:13:13 AM
TD-1910, Maoria 4th Rate (Storm) laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
748 t light; 789 t standard; 895 t normal; 980 t full load
I think 15cm guns are a bit large for ships this size, but that has already been pointed out, so no need for further comment on that.
I think she can work she is average in most ways.
Personally, I would prefer a raised forecastle to help maintain speed in seaway, but flush decks suffer less strain in the long run.
And idea that you might want to consider is to concentrate the big guns either for or aft to concentrate the firepower as the ROF is relatively low.
From a out of game perspective I have some doubts about electric engines in such a small ship, as they weight quite a bit more the direct or gearing. Something SS does not take into account.
Wow... I'm flattered. My designs don't usually get looked at that hard.
I'm starting to think that 28 knots is a bit slow.
Check your PM's... we might want to collaborate a bit here. ;)
TE-1910/B, Maoria Design Study laid down 1912
Displacement:
997 t light; 1,026 t standard; 1,145 t normal; 1,241 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
337.56 ft / 321.52 ft x 29.53 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
102.89 m / 98.00 m x 9.00 m x 3.00 m
Armament:
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 52 lbs / 23 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 321.52 ft / 98.00 m 6.53 ft / 1.99 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
- Armour deck: 0.39" / 10 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 1 shaft, 13,670 shp / 10,198 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 5,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 215 tons
Complement:
97 - 127
Cost:
£0.107 million / $0.428 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6 tons, 0.6 %
Armour: 209 tons, 18.2 %
- Belts: 153 tons, 13.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 8 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 41 tons, 3.6 %
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 477 tons, 41.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 293 tons, 25.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 148 tons, 13.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 11 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
538 lbs / 244 Kg = 41.8 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 95 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.70
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.429
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.89 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 13.25 ft / 4.04 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 140.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90.0 %
Waterplane Area: 5,656 Square feet or 525 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 84 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 121 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Started life as a clone of Italia's 30knot destroyer design, but I wanted to see if a destroyer could be armored against anti-TB guns and still keep its needed speeds. What do y'all think?
The belt armor might work, but the deck armor's so thin it's not worth it.
It'd be interesting to see their performance gamed out...
QuoteThe belt armor might work, but the deck armor's so thin it's not worth it.
Yeah. The 'in character' thing to do - what the 'real Maori' would do - would be to just crank the tonnage until there's enough weight for a decent, 10-20mm deck, but game rules forbid it, alas.
Trim the belt to 50mm, and knock the range down to 4,000 nm, and maybe you can get away with it.
Note that the main battery's shell count is zero...
QuoteTrim the belt to 50mm, and knock the range down to 4,000 nm, and maybe you can get away with it.
Note that the main battery's shell count is zero...
Whups! Thanks. Edited the post with an improved version. I kept the fuel where it was, though - note that that range is at the Maori fleet standard cruising speed, 10 knots. At top speed she can barely manage four hundred and change.
Which, given the difference in power demands, is actually sort of surprising. I'd've expected something more like a hundred and fifty...
Quote from: Valles on January 18, 2008, 05:21:01 AM
TE-1910/B, Maoria Design Study laid down 1912
Started life as a clone of Italia's 30knot destroyer design, but I wanted to see if a destroyer could be armored against anti-TB guns and still keep its needed speeds. What do y'all think?
Interesting, but what is she to be used for? She got very low firepower, but is armoured. Slow but with loads of torpedoes, I simply do not see a natural mission for a ship with those parameters. :-\
QuoteInteresting, but what is she to be used for? She got very low firepower, but is armoured. Slow but with loads of torpedoes, I simply do not see a natural mission for a ship with those parameters.
She is a destroyer, as I said. She's used for anything that you'd use the Confederate F-01 or Orange corvette or any similar ship for. Guns and speed are both admittedly within the low end of what's expected for such but still within bounds, and she's a great deal more survivable, with far less to fear from anti-TB guns than her equivalents.
I feared that someone will start putting belt on destroyers.
And with the 1912 engines I won't consider 27kts a fast combatant.
QuoteI feared that someone will start putting belt on destroyers.
Why not, then?
QuoteAnd with the 1912 engines I won't consider 27kts a fast combatant.
With an 18knot fleet speed, I certainly
would.
Well you guys could go with generic destroyers, generic cruisers, generic battleships, generic subma...oh you already have those. Catch my drift? If everyone builds the perfect ship, you might as well start playing Risk.
Quote from: P3D on January 18, 2008, 11:47:29 AM
I feared that someone will start putting belt on destroyers.
And with the 1912 engines I won't consider 27kts a fast combatant.
27 knots is a fast combatant by SS and the rules.
Good enough for me.
Also, the belted destroyer is simply an idea who's time is coming. You have a ship that's 1-2 knots slower than a standard DD, but armored to kill them, and still fast enough to outrun many enemy craft. It's a good, cheap way to defend the battleline.
Makes perfect sense to someone thinking outside the box.
The problem with armored destroyers is not so much thinking outside the box, its more a case of shells exploding inside the box. An unarmored destroyer has a fairly good chance of having a shell pass through the hull and explode on the other side of the ship (much like RPGs going through PBR Mk. II hulls during Vietnam and exploding (mostly harmlessly) on the other side of the boat). Adding armor means that shells that would have passed through now will explode inside the ship, doing far greater damage. At least in the realm of realism.
How far away are the two ships?
2" of armor can deflect/stop a 3" round in tank combat a sufficient ranges, and can force some to explode before penetrating. The ship seems fairly well armored against it's equals.
I'm less than optimistic about the surety of a hit to an unarmored area of a ship not detonating. There's a chance, certainly, but anything aimed low enough to hit the belt likely would've pasted some important bit of machinery anyway, and if that happens with a decent sized shell then any destroyer is toast, armor or not. So, being able to shrug off the light hits from rapid-fire guns would definitely be worthwhile.
And! Pictures! Two potential designs.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/ArmoredDestroyer1.png)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/ArmoredDestroyer2.png)
Quote from: Ithekro on January 18, 2008, 01:51:21 PM
The problem with armored destroyers is not so much thinking outside the box, its more a case of shells exploding inside the box. An unarmored destroyer has a fairly good chance of having a shell pass through the hull and explode on the other side of the ship (much like RPGs going through PBR Mk. II hulls during Vietnam and exploding (mostly harmlessly) on the other side of the boat). Adding armor means that shells that would have passed through now will explode inside the ship, doing far greater damage. At least in the realm of realism.
Punchtrough is really only an issue if someone is firing large calibre AP shells on the destroyer, something one does not normally use on destroyers. The most common shell against DDs is either HE or common, and the risk for punchtrough with either of those is minimal.
Quote from: Carthaginian on January 18, 2008, 01:55:25 PM
How far away are the two ships?
2" of armor can deflect/stop a 3" round in tank combat a sufficient ranges, and can force some to explode before penetrating. The ship seems fairly well armored against it's equals.
Just for comparison, a common/SAP (base&nose fuze) shell from my DDs can penetrate 50mm armour out to about 60hm.
But the belt is usefull if under shrapnel fire.
So, if they are not more distant than 3 n. mi., a 50mm belt wouldn't stop an AP shell.
Still, being as you say most attacks against DD's were with HE or Common, wouldn't 50mm be sufficient to detonate the round on the outside at least most of the time? If so, it would seem wise to add a thin belt to a destroyer if you were planning on it engaging and killing light ships with gunfire.
Quote from: Carthaginian on January 18, 2008, 03:18:39 PM
So, if they are not more distant than 3 n. mi., a 50mm belt wouldn't stop an AP shell.
Still, being as you say most attacks against DD's were with HE or Common, wouldn't 50mm be sufficient to detonate the round on the outside at least most of the time? If so, it would seem wise to add a thin belt to a destroyer if you were planning on it engaging and killing light ships with gunfire.
Well I was talking about common shells; an AP shell would penetrate 50mm out to almost 100hm...
Sure the belt could keep nose fused HE out most of the time, delay fused SAP(common) I doubt it would hold out anytime. Even so a direct hit from a 12cm HE is likely to breech the armour by virtue of chemical energy.
As far as I am concerned, the greatest advantage of a belt is to keep out splinter from near misses, and possible shrapnel shells used against the ship.
Better than nothing, that is, certainly, but...
Hm. How much would be needed to protect against 100mm-ish at torpedo-launch range?
Torpedo launch range is like 500-3000yards depending on speed difference and torpedo technology. To have an armor to stop 4" shells at that range you need a cruiser.
And DD machinery space occupies the whole depth of the ship (until you got to late WWII designs), from hull bottom to weather deck. If you want to armor that, 2m deep belt is not enough.
Quote from: Valles on January 18, 2008, 03:37:29 PM
Better than nothing, that is, certainly, but...
Hm. How much would be needed to protect against 100mm-ish at torpedo-launch range?
Like P3D said, loads at laest up around 75mm if 1you want protection against 10cm guns, closer to 10-11cm if you want protection against 12 and 15cm guns.
Torpedo-launch range really depends on what the torpedo attack tries to accomplish, if it is to prevent the enemy from closing the range is much further then if trying to press an attack against an enemy avoiding. (In the later case then you really need to overtake the enemy before launch)
Quote from: Desertfox on January 18, 2008, 12:20:31 PM
Well you guys could go with generic destroyers, generic cruisers, generic battleships, generic subma...oh you already have those. Catch my drift? If everyone builds the perfect ship, you might as well start playing Risk.
I think the idea is for everyone to build the perfect ship acording to them. If its actualy perfect or not well thats a mater of perspective, the rules are such that everyone will in the end build similar ships, however there will be and are fundemental diferances.
Um...interesting pics. Yeah, interesting...that's waht I meant. LOL No really, the bottom one looks like a converted, although much smaller Oil Tanker, while the top one seems very superstructure heavy for a DD. Is, of course, IMO but I don't see any purpose to a belt on a DD. Korpen/P3D are probably right, anything heavy enough to stop what's gonna be shot at you will kill the performance of your DD. Lose the armor and go faster. OMG I sound like DF....ow..ow.oh the pain. ;D
Speed is waste.
Springsharp defines all engine operations as happening below the waterline, yesno? 'Destroyer' or not...
But if it takes a cruiser, it takes a cruiser. Better than fighting naked.
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1912
Displacement:
3,362 t light; 3,533 t standard; 3,979 t normal; 4,336 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
350.18 ft / 344.49 ft x 32.81 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
106.73 m / 105.00 m x 10.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 1,030 lbs / 467 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.33" / 110 mm 344.49 ft / 105.00 m 6.89 ft / 2.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.33" / 110 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
- Armour deck: 0.39" / 10 mm, Conning tower: 4.33" / 110 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 37,393 shp / 27,895 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 803 tons
Complement:
249 - 325
Cost:
£0.428 million / $1.714 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 129 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 566 tons, 14.2 %
- Belts: 380 tons, 9.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 100 tons, 2.5 %
- Armour Deck: 62 tons, 1.6 %
- Conning Tower: 23 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 1,448 tons, 36.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,203 tons, 30.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 617 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 17 tons, 0.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,147 lbs / 974 Kg = 20.8 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.626
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.93 ft / 5.16 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 143.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 72.1 %
Waterplane Area: 8,469 Square feet or 787 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 60 lbs/sq ft or 291 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 4.24
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: Valles on January 19, 2008, 12:48:17 AM
But if it takes a cruiser, it takes a cruiser. Better than fighting naked.
Armament:
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
Quote from: Valles on January 04, 2008, 06:12:01 PM
Light Cruiser Architecture
1880 Baseline(0): guns in single mounts or casemates, on side/centerline
1900 Advanced(+1): ammunition hoists, deck torpedo armament, superfiring mounts
1910 Cutting Edge (+5): twin gun mounts
1920: turrets and barbettes
Twin gun mounts requires hoists, and they are power operated. Their armor is limited to splinter protection - 1".
Battleship Architecture is not valid for guns 6.5" and smaller. To have armored turrets with small guns, this technology is required.
Me thinketh thou art ahead of thy self.
And the deck armor is still to thin.
Quote from: Sachmle on January 19, 2008, 01:40:45 AM
Quote from: Valles on January 19, 2008, 12:48:17 AM
But if it takes a cruiser, it takes a cruiser. Better than fighting naked.
Armament:
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
Quote from: Valles on January 04, 2008, 06:12:01 PM
Light Cruiser Architecture
1880 Baseline(0): guns in single mounts or casemates, on side/centerline
1900 Advanced(+1): ammunition hoists, deck torpedo armament, superfiring mounts
1910 Cutting Edge (+5): twin gun mounts
1920: turrets and barbettes
Twin gun mounts requires hoists, and they are power operated. Their armor is limited to splinter protection - 1".
Battleship Architecture is not valid for guns 6.5" and smaller. To have armored turrets with small guns, this technology is required.
Me thinketh thou art ahead of thy self.
Sure he is, but so is the design, and by 1912 he most likley will have that tech...
QuoteFrom Maori 1HY/1910 report
Military Research: $4
Dated Torpedoes via transfer from Italia: $0.25 (1st half)
Cutting Edge Battleship Architecture via transfer from Italia: $0.25 (1st half)
Advanced Naval Guns via transfer from Italia: $0.25 (1st half)
Dated Infantry via transfer from Italia: $0.25 (1st half)
Dated Mobile Units via transfer from Italia: $0.25 (1st half)
Baseline Mobilization via transfer from Italia: $0.25 (1st half)
Baseline Mine Warfare via transfer from Italia: $0.25 (1st half)
Baseline Submarines via transfer from Italia: $0.25 (1st half)
Cutting Edge Airships: $1 (1st period)
Advanced Rail Guns: $1 (1st period)
Kinda hard to get it if you aren't even researching it. I don't
think anyone has it to trade it to him yet, but I could be wrong. So many of the Tech boards are out of date it's hard to tell anymore at a glance, you have to dig through HY reports to figure it out.
LOL its the glory of planing for the future lets ya figure out what tec to go after.
I took a crack at a pic for ya, whatcha think?
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/Sachmle/MaoriCL.jpg)
Ya got no misc weight for W/T or FC so no aerials or masts, just bare bones superstructure.
Indeed. Seems I need to come up with something to clearly indicate what's a 'We're planning to build this, no, really' design and what's 'Let's play around with sketches and see what we get'.
Armored destroyers are, for the next five to ten years or so, in the latter category, as much as I might wish otherwise.
Stupid weight rules. >.<
QuoteYa got no misc weight for W/T or FC so no aerials or masts, just bare bones superstructure.
Misc Weight: 17 tons = 5 tons short-range wireless, 6 tons torpedoes, 6 tons tubes. Maori practice, as I think I've shown in my own drawings, is to have two widely separated engine rooms whenever feasible, for redundancy's sake. (Which, BTW, is one reason they like electric drive - wires are a lot easier to run from the forward room to the screws than shafts) I'd pictured the same 'stacked behind garage doors' arrangement as the first of the destroyer sketches.
That said, it still looks far better than anything I've managed to do. ^_^;;
Ahoj!
Nice drawing. Pretty nicely rams home what "limited use" of hull casemattes means. The ambrazures are what - 9-10 feet above the WL?
I don't know about other fleets, all I can say is that
1910 Cutting Edge (+5): twin gun mounts
is the first item on the "to research" list of the KuKK, if one counts from the bottom up.
Borys
Quote from: Valles on January 19, 2008, 02:29:12 AM
Misc Weight: 17 tons = 5 tons short-range wireless, 6 tons torpedoes, 6 tons tubes. Maori practice, as I think I've shown in my own drawings, is to have two widely separated engine rooms whenever feasible, for redundancy's sake. (Which, BTW, is one reason they like electric drive - wires are a lot easier to run from the forward room to the screws than shafts) I'd pictured the same 'stacked behind garage doors' arrangement as the first of the destroyer sketches.
That said, it still looks far better than anything I've managed to do. ^_^;;
Oops on misc weight, I'm used to my cruisers having 20ish torps in hull mounts so I have like 40t in misc weight just for torpedos. Anywho, here's the "Maoria" style w/ the wide engine spacing and the W/T and FC added in.
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/Sachmle/MaorianCL.jpg)
Quote from: Borys on January 19, 2008, 02:35:52 AM
Ahoj!
Nice drawing. Pretty nicely rams home what "limited use" of hull casemattes means. The ambrazures are what - 9-10 feet above the WL?
I don't know about other fleets, all I can say is that
1910 Cutting Edge (+5): twin gun mounts
is the first item on the "to research" list of the KuKK, if one counts from the bottom up.
Borys
Is funny, no? Thisa guy, he makea me laugh hard belly laugh all the times. :D :D
QuoteOops on misc weight, I'm used to my cruisers having 20ish torps in hull mounts so I have like 40t in misc weight just for torpedos. Anywho, here's the "Maoria" style w/ the wide engine spacing and the W/T and FC added in.
Bingo. I believe you have it, sir!
And Maori practice is/will be not to carry reloads aboard actual torpedo-delivery ships. With Support Cruisers near at hand and the near-certainty of taking craploads of fire in the course of their mission, having any more
big freaking bombs aboard than absolutely necessary seems... unwise.
I list them as proposals if they are future or no freking way ships
I would recommend starting a new thread for new ships per year to give the reader a clue that these are for later years or just proposals.
I would aslo suggest filling in the encyclopedia entry for Maoria's Navy so the rest of us will know what you have at present.
QuoteI think the idea is for everyone to build the perfect ship acording to them. If its actualy perfect or not well thats a mater of perspective, the rules are such that everyone will in the end build similar ships, however there will be and are fundemental diferances.
Looks like you never looked at my Rolling Thunder Super (Floating Magazine) Cruiser, or the 11" gunned - 4" armored Raider. They where not proposals, they
where going to be built! As where the Spurious and Outrageous Swiss clones, The US Lexingtons (with 6" belts) and had it been possible the US 1912 BC proposals! Yes I was deliberately going to build FLAWED ship. ;D
QuoteLose the armor and go faster. OMG I sound like DF....ow..ow.oh the pain.
Well someone has to take my place... ;)
@ Valles, I like your ships. They are so unique, especially the NelRod DD. I for one actually like the fact that you are armoring your DDs. It gives them a more Maorian feel. It moght not be a good idea, b ut then we are not perfect.
IIRC the twin gun mount of this cruiser tech is not full barbette, and can be armored only with splinter protection (2" armor). Thicker armor would require the full barbette and the next tech.
Ah, and I also miss the ammo hoists.
Quote from: P3D on January 20, 2008, 12:17:49 AM
We agreed IMO that the twin gun mount of this cruiser tech is not full barbette, and can be armored only with splinter protection (2" armor). Thicker armor would require the full barbette and the next tech?
no idea other than the one twin mount and hoist proposal I havnt even tryed to sim a CL with twins, and that was just splinter protection anyway.
QuoteIIRC the twin gun mount of this cruiser tech is not full barbette, and can be armored only with splinter protection (2" armor). Thicker armor would require the full barbette and the next tech.
Ah? Oh, yes. Let me see...
2kton Armored Can, Maoria Destroyer Concept laid down 1920
Displacement:
1,935 t light; 1,988 t standard; 2,220 t normal; 2,405 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
333.52 ft / 328.08 ft x 32.81 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
101.66 m / 100.00 m x 10.00 m x 4.00 m
Armament:
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 103 lbs / 47 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 328.08 ft / 100.00 m 6.89 ft / 2.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
- Armour deck: 1.18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 25,773 shp / 19,227 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 417 tons
Complement:
161 - 210
Cost:
£0.463 million / $1.852 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 13 tons, 0.6 %
Armour: 601 tons, 27.1 %
- Belts: 395 tons, 17.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 25 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 164 tons, 7.4 %
- Conning Tower: 17 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 838 tons, 37.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 462 tons, 20.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 285 tons, 12.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 21 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,033 lbs / 468 Kg = 80.2 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.97 ft / 0.60 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 13.65 ft / 4.16 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 128.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.3 %
Waterplane Area: 7,512 Square feet or 698 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 158 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.56
- Longitudinal: 1.43
- Overall: 0.61
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
6 tons torpedoes
6 tons torpedo tubes
5 tons short-range wireless
4 tons power traversing gearDo not tell me 'can't' unless you have real authority to back it up.
Quote from: Valles on January 20, 2008, 02:02:28 AM
Ah? Oh, yes. Let me see...
2kton Armored Can, Maoria Destroyer Concept laid down 1920
Displacement:
1,935 t light; 1,988 t standard; 2,220 t normal; 2,405 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
333.52 ft / 328.08 ft x 32.81 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
101.66 m / 100.00 m x 10.00 m x 4.00 m
Armament:
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 103 lbs / 47 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Do not tell me 'can't' unless you have real authority to back it up.
Would it not be a good idea to put some guns on her (75s does no count)?
And i agree with Ithekro, try and post the designs in service in the encyclopaedia, this thread is a mess with different sort of designs, ideas, studies and suggestions. It is pretty hard to try and figure out what is what.
QuoteWould it not be a good idea to put some guns on her (75s does no count)?
Why on earth wouldn't they?
QuoteAnd i agree with Ithekro, try and post the designs in service in the encyclopaedia, this thread is a mess with different sort of designs, ideas, studies and suggestions. It is pretty hard to try and figure out what is what.
I'd sort of forgotten about that for a while, but it is now once again in progress. Sketch of Kerykeion is now, like, 70-80% complete, probably finished by the end of the day.
Quote from: Valles on January 20, 2008, 10:25:00 AM
QuoteWould it not be a good idea to put some guns on her (75s does no count)?
Why on earth wouldn't they?
Because they have very limited effectiveness against ships of more then 500 ton displacement. By 1920 the likely opposing ships will at least have 10cm guns, more likely 12-13cm guns, and even if they are not armoured the effect of a 75mm shell on them will be far smaller then the effect of12-13cm hits on this cruiser.
Also, the effective range of a 75mm gun is not greater then effective torpedo range (below 20hm) by that date.
QuoteI'd sort of forgotten about that for a while, but it is now once again in progress. Sketch of Kerykeion is now, like, 70-80% complete, probably finished by the end of the day.
Just upload the Sims, and then add the pictures as you finish them, that is what I did. :)
EDIT:
A little thought; Maori is isolated and have no neighbours close by, this means that unless Maori is planning offensive operations you are unlikely to engage the kind of small costal forces against which 75s is effective. It seems a more likely enemy would to be larger DDs and cruisers that can operate across oceans.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/Kerykeion.png)
I'm wanting something more interesting than simple poles for the masts, yet less generic than a tripod. A triangular truss seems plausible to me...
I like the truss, it looks very original. Hell, I like the way the whole ship looks honestly. Very spartan, or even Russian superstructure. Less to replace after getting shot I suppose. Very nice. ;)