Folks:
I'm pondering an armored cruiser that would be intended for:
1) Smashing similar or small cruisers and AMCs involved in raiding ops
2) Anchoring the Battle Fleet's scouting force
The ship would not be intended to fight BCs one on one, but might team up in pairs or with lighter cruisers to try for a replay of River Plate.
The hull's about 11,000 t light, speed between 26 and 26.5 knots (1909 tech), and the belt being between 20 cm and 15 cm depending on the speed.
I can put in either twelve 194 mm guns or eight 234 mm guns; the broadside of the larger guns is about 15% heavier. Given rate-of-fire, range, and penetration considerations, and the ship's missions, which main battery would you prefer?
The need to engage BCs decides for the larger caliber.
yup i have to agree
234mm cannon should be adequate to damage the armored sections of a Battlecruiser at present era combat ranges. 194mm cannon may be able to damage the less heavily armored section at those ranges and perhaps penetrate the armor at close ranges, but no Battlecruiser commander would be willing to get in close with an Armored Cruiser if he does not have to do so.
I would note that I speculate based on period armor thicknesses not the heavier armor that seems to be more common on Navalism Battlecruisers. At extreme ranges (where the 12" guns are still effective but the 234mm cannon would not reach) the Battlecruiser's speed would be the deciding factor on keeping the armored cruiser at range and thus pound it slowly under the water while getting little fire in return.
I would tend to agree with Ithekro's statement on the likely outcome of this, or any, AC running into a BC. Even in a tandem, or with some PC's or a squad of TBs the odds are definately in the BCs favor, even with the 23.4cm. I would therefore recommend the 19.4cm for its greater rate of fire in the primary misson role of H/K of similar ACs and PCs and smaller vessels and then attemp to avoid BCs or larger at all cost. Perhaps a little more speed with the lighter MB? You could even get away with slightly lighter armour, if your intent is to engage smaller vessel most of the time.
You could get a license for Constellation, 8x8", 27kts, 7" belt.
There's nothing special about the 26-26.5kts (trial speed does not count) Constellations besides being equipped with weaker guns than other ACs.
Without knowing all the exact details you would want included I came up with this.
1909 AC, Gran Columbia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1909
Displacement:
11,189 t light; 11,628 t standard; 12,750 t normal; 13,648 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(471.46 ft / 459.32 ft) x 73.82 ft x (25.92 / 27.30 ft)
(143.70 m / 140.00 m) x 22.50 m x (7.90 / 8.32 m)
Armament:
4 - 7.64" / 194 mm 45.0 cal guns - 225.00lbs / 102.06kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline amidships (forward deck)
8 - 7.64" / 194 mm 45.0 cal guns - 225.00lbs / 102.06kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
10 - 5.51" / 140 mm 45.0 cal guns - 85.00lbs / 38.56kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides amidships
10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
8 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
10 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.00lbs / 1.36kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
10 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
10 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,820 lbs / 1,733 kg
4 - 1.8" / 46 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedoes - 0.085 t each, 0.338 t total
In 2 sets of submerged bow & stern tubes
4 - 1.8" / 46 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedoes - 0.085 t each, 0.338 t total
In 2 sets of below water reloads
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 328.08 ft / 100.00 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Ends: 2.76" / 70 mm 129.59 ft / 39.50 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
1.64 ft / 0.50 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 328.08 ft / 100.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
3rd: 3.94" / 100 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
4th: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 1.57" / 40 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.87" / 200 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 50,479 shp / 37,658 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 10.50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,020 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
599 - 779
Cost:
£1.052 million / $4.207 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 785 tons, 6.2 %
- Guns: 784 tons, 6.2 %
- Torpedoes: 1 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 4,153 tons, 32.6 %
- Belts: 2,652 tons, 20.8 %
- Armament: 890 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 518 tons, 4.1 %
- Conning Tower: 93 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,524 tons, 19.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,728 tons, 29.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,561 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,480 lbs / 7,021 Kg = 69.5 x 7.6 " / 194 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.508 / 0.516
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.22 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Aft deck: 23.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarter deck: 17.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.8 %
Waterplane Area: 22,752 Square feet or 2,114 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 584 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
I used the general info on your 1898 ACs and upped the ante a little to meet your new spec.
Oops... should have read
Armament:
4 - 7.64" / 194 mm 45.0 cal guns - 225.00lbs / 102.06kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 7.64" / 194 mm 45.0 cal guns - 225.00lbs / 102.06kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
IDK id like the chance my AC would have against that ship. Honestly i like 6 10" guns, in 2 tripple mounts. My cruiser may only hit 21 knots, but she would hammer anything in her class. She is half the weight of her fellows and half the cost, and honestly i plan to build them 2 to 1 I will take my chances on weather or not they will actualy survive.
Ahoj!
4x2x9,2 or 6x2x7,6 - depends on use. If encounters with BC unlikely, go for more guns. If detached, higher risk operations more likely - with large AC or BC encounter possible, the heavier guns are better.
The thing is that there is no signicant difference in ROF between the two, both firing of 2-3 rounds per minute.
12x200* lbs = 2400
8x380 lbs = 3040
Even though I'd have liked to recommend the Blucheresque ship, I fail to see any benefits of it. Unless with local gun control etc. more guns = better.
Of course, 5 or 6 of the nice 5'5 guns on each side are a given.
* I think 200 lbs is more likely than 225
Borys
Appreciate the feedback so far.
Relative speed of the ships is coming up - I'd point out that I envision the 1909-engined version of this vessel to be 26 to 26.4 knots, a good two knots faster than any BCs of the same generation. Once the 1912 engine tech is available, everything gets faster, but I'd expect the AC to retain some margin of speed over the larger BC. This is not an old-school 21 knot AC I'm talking about.
The 194 mm layout is akin to the revised Triunfante class, two twins forward and four aft, all on the centreline. The 234 mm layout is obviously two twins at either end.
Sachmle - not a bad design in general. I've been working with a longer hull with less draft, to maximize speed on the restricted (48,000 shp) machinery size available at this point.
Not sure if I'd include 140 mm guns; if I'm already installing a dozen 194 mm, would a few (~8-10) 100 mm guns not suffice as anti-TB weapons?
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 10, 2007, 06:18:04 AM
Appreciate the feedback so far.
Not sure if I'd include 140 mm guns; if I'm already installing a dozen 194 mm, would a few (~8-10) 100 mm guns not suffice as anti-TB weapons?
I think that her best anti-TB weapon is 26kts speed, that is almost as fast as most TBs, and fast enogh to force a attacking TB to close to less then 500m if they want to shoot a torpedo with
any possibillity of a hit.
...which the current war does suggest is not conducive to the TB's long-term health. Good point.
Ahoj!
Funny about the turret arrangement:)
I imagined the 12 gun version like Blucher,and the 8 gun as 2x2, 4x1 (like the British ACs, or Radetzky).
194 or 234 - both are too slow to be useful against TBs. I think the 140mm is perfect for this job. More agile than the 6 incher, yet a much heavier hitter than the 4 inchers.
But maybe some dozen 4 inchers would suffice ...
Borys
Quote from: Borys on October 10, 2007, 06:48:25 AM
Ahoj!
Funny about the turret arrangement:)
I imagined the 12 gun version like Blucher,and the 8 gun as 2x2, 4x1 (like the British ACs, or Radetzky).
194 or 234 - both are too slow to be useful against TBs. I think the 140mm is perfect for this job. More agile than the 6 incher, yet a much heavier hitter than the 4 inchers.
But maybe some dozen 4 inchers would suffice ...
Borys
Or buy som lovely 12cm guns! ;D
That calibre combines a usefull weight of shell with good ROF.
Ahoj!
Your post did NOT come as a surprise :)
I think the 12cm is too large for destroyer type vessels, and too small for cruiser and larger vessels. On a larger cruiser the 14cm will fire about as as fast, yet over 150% shell weight of the 12cm weapon (c.35kg versus c.20kg).
Borys
Quote from: Borys on October 10, 2007, 07:01:02 AM
Ahoj!
Your post did NOT come as a surprise :)
I think the 12cm is too large for destroyer type vessels, and too small for cruiser and larger vessels. On a larger cruiser the 14cm will fire about as as fast, yet over 150% shell weight of the 12cm weapon (c.35kg versus c.20kg).
Borys
But the 14cm gun also weight 60% more, so instead of 10 14cm guns the ship could have 16 12cm guns.
And when shooting up TB, more guns are a good thing, and at the same time the 12cm gun got enogh punch to be usefull against small cruisers, unlike a 10cm gun.
Also most guns around 14cm had a rof about the same as a 15cm gun (~6 RPM), compred to the ~10 RPM of a 12cm gun (unless it is bagloading, then the ROF is about equal).
As I said, I'm not quite up to speed on the little things (the 48,000 hp limit and shell weight numbers) so here is a redraft
1909 AC, Gran Columbia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1909
Displacement:
11,242 t light; 11,653 t standard; 12,750 t normal; 13,628 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(504.27 ft / 492.13 ft) x 73.82 ft x (25.26 / 26.55 ft)
(153.70 m / 150.00 m) x 22.50 m x (7.70 / 8.09 m)
Armament:
12 - 7.64" / 194 mm 45.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
6 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.51" / 140 mm 45.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
10 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.86lbs / 14.00kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides amidships
10 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.41lbs / 2.00kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
10 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
10 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,404 lbs / 1,544 kg
4 - 1.8" / 46 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedoes - 0.085 t each, 0.338 t total
In 2 sets of submerged bow & stern tubes
4 - 1.8" / 46 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedoes - 0.085 t each, 0.338 t total
In 2 sets of below water reloads
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 311.68 ft / 95.00 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Ends: 2.76" / 70 mm 180.45 ft / 55.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 311.68 ft / 95.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
3rd: 3.94" / 100 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
4th: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 1.57" / 40 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.87" / 200 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,975 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
599 - 779
Cost:
£1.031 million / $4.125 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 771 tons, 6.0 %
- Guns: 770 tons, 6.0 %
- Torpedoes: 1 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 4,320 tons, 33.9 %
- Belts: 2,617 tons, 20.5 %
- Armament: 1,067 tons, 8.4 %
- Armour Deck: 543 tons, 4.3 %
- Conning Tower: 93 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,400 tons, 18.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,752 tons, 29.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,508 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,339 lbs / 6,957 Kg = 68.9 x 7.6 " / 194 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.486 / 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Aft deck: 23.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarter deck: 17.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121.6 %
Waterplane Area: 23,906 Square feet or 2,221 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 559 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.91
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I went with the longer hull w/ shallower draught. Waddaya think?
Ahoj!
Quite nice.
1 - the belts are too high; The assumption is that half the Main Belt goes under the WL. Here the Upper Belt pushes some 3/4ths of it beneath it. Maybe cut them down to 16+8? That will nicely cover the whole side above the waterline, up to the weather deck.
2 - I'm not sure if 8 inch casemate covers are a good idea. Casematte guns usually were hand operated - how easy such a slab of metal is to move about, I dunno.
3 - the 2x7,6" turrets should be"majority aft"
4 - the 3-pounders - shouldn't they be on the sides?
5 - you need Miscalenous weight - it is a by-rule we use for torpedo tubes, topredos, radio, various fancy gimmicks you might think off; I suggest 10 or 25 tonnes for a medium or large w/t set, 20 tonnes for torpedo apparatus and reloads - at least 50-60 tonnes in total
6 - excelent as a cruiser
7 - I like the price, only 10$ (we take the Pounds and multiply by ten), which is 40% of the battleships which are being lately
8 - how would it look like with 4x2x9,2"? That could allow for weather deck mounted 5,5" caseattes.
9 - you seem to be using SS3. We are sticking to SS2.1, but I suppose we will move on when the bugs are ironed out.
10 - ammunition for the main guns is on the low side. I would not mind this amount in a battleship, but in a cruiser I'd be a bit worried. Maybe 100 or 120 rounds?
Borys
1.8 inch torps... and I thought i was bad with 12" models =P
Generally speaking, it's a solid design comparable to the various files I've got myself. Longer range would be good, ~9000 miles. I've got me an "Empire" of sorts now.
I don't know that I would go with both 5.5" and 3.9" to any significant degree. If nothing else, the 6x2 194 mm arrangement probably wouldn't leave room for it. But I'd be curious to see if the design could handle 12 x 5.5" (eight hull casemates, four weather deck) and 2 x 100 mm deck mounts (anti-zeppelin guns).
I'd be aiming for around 150 shells of 194 mm caliber, maybe 120 of 234 mm.
Torpedos are a question mark (whether 1.8" or 18"). I'm inclined to think that this is the kind of ship that does not want to be in torpedo range of anything, so would leave them out, but I'm open to suggestion.
From experience torpedoes on such ships is a bad idea.
Looking back at what you need, I would suggest a much smaller Launceston/Hawkins type ship. You can build more of them, they work fine smashing up similar or smaller cruisers, and ACMs, and are more expendable. This comes from experience.
I do have smaller designs on seven to eight thousand tonnes, though the designs are more like small armored cruisers than big light cruisers (ala Hawkins). Typically 3x2 194 mm, 100mm belt armor, and just over 27 knots with 1909 tech.
27 knots is the best that anyone is gonna get on 1909 engine, I think... at least, without a class 3 dock to make for a longer ship. I've had some pretty good designs with 7.5"/L45's at that speed, though they were kinda short legged (favoring protection over range). They were basically expounding on the Mobile class.
My 9.2" cruisers are about 24.5-25.5 knots, and wind up being fairly light on protection (compared to what I want) for that speed, considering that many BC's are starting to inch into that speed range.
Go with the smaller designs. They are more flexible and expendable. Even speed can't help a poorly crewed ship.
Small cruisers will die if caught, larger ones might fight off most enemies.
Too much economy will kill a good ship, you have to have enough capability built in.
I have 4 small 8" cruisers, all 4 are still alive and have sunk a larger AC. I had 4 larger 8"-9" cruisers, 3 have been sunk (2 due to poor command decisions), with nothing larger than a LC sunk.
Ahoj!
If the speed difference is less then 3 knots or so, the smaller cruiser will get away. It will run for home, while the big raider cannot really give chase (or at least not for long) - as it will burn up coal and be left stranded off the GC coast.
And if this cruiser catches a smaller cruiser, like the to-be-built Austrian 1909 class, it won't be able to catch it, tha's true. It will chase it off and pursue just enough as to make the intruder burn up enough coal as to force it to return to where it cam from.
I consider this ship as a good defensive cruiser. But I still favour the 4x2x9,2 version.
Borys
im playing around with a 26 kts BC atm on the 1909 engine (realy just an expansion of my 1906 AC). Im just not sure its worth it. Ill post it up in a bit see what yall think
Third times the charm? As Borys correctly pointed out, I was using SS3, so this is SS2.1 I haven't used it as much, so I make no promises. I also upped the range reduced the 100mm and removed the TT.
1909 AC v3, Gran Columbia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1909
Displacement:
11,723 t light; 12,315 t standard; 13,642 t normal; 14,703 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
525.75 ft / 525.75 ft x 68.08 ft x 24.93 ft (normal load)
160.25 m / 160.25 m x 20.75 m x 7.60 m
Armament:
8 - 7.64" / 194 mm guns (4x2 guns), 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 7.64" / 194 mm guns (2x2 guns), 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 28.66lbs / 13.00kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.87lbs / 1.30kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,512 lbs / 1,593 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 328.08 ft / 100.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 196.85 ft / 60.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
0.82 ft / 0.25 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 328.08 ft / 100.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
3rd: 1.57" / 40 mm - 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 50,761 shp / 37,868 Kw = 26.25 kts
Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,388 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
630 - 820
Cost:
£1.162 million / $4.650 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 477 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 4,067 tons, 29.8 %
- Belts: 2,195 tons, 16.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,057 tons, 7.7 %
- Armour Deck: 718 tons, 5.3 %
- Conning Tower: 97 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,513 tons, 18.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,606 tons, 33.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,919 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 0.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,492 lbs / 6,574 Kg = 65.1 x 7.6 " / 194 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.535
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.72 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 24.28 ft / 7.40 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (45 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.2 %
Waterplane Area: 24,631 Square feet or 2,288 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 590 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Looks promising - can you post or PM the entire file?
Half the ss file is missing man.
Here is a hard hitting idea, nice to sink other peoples 2nd & 3rd class Cruisers
1909 AC, GC Armoured Cruiser laid down 1909
Displacement:
11,319 t light; 11,947 t standard; 13,898 t normal; 15,458 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
556.70 ft / 550.00 ft x 67.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
169.68 m / 167.64 m x 20.42 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
6 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (3x2 guns), 440.92lbs / 200.00kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
4 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
12 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,054 lbs / 1,839 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 145
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 325.00 ft / 99.06 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 1.50" / 38 mm 225.00 ft / 68.58 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 325.00 ft / 99.06 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.50" / 216 mm 4.50" / 114 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,550 shp / 36,218 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,511 tons
Complement:
639 - 831
Cost:
£1.119 million / $4.475 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 492 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 3,771 tons, 27.1 %
- Belts: 1,949 tons, 14.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 745 tons, 5.4 %
- Armour Deck: 952 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 125 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,207 tons, 15.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,598 tons, 33.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,579 tons, 18.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,646 lbs / 7,551 Kg = 39.5 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (35 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 18.43 ft / 5.62 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.3 %
Waterplane Area: 25,717 Square feet or 2,389 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 116 lbs/sq ft or 567 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.45
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Sorry, I fixed the post. Not quite sure what happened.
Earl, you got UNCOMFORTABLY close to a projected medium AC that I had planned with that one.
Back to the drawing board for something unique. ;)
I'd almost say this is close to the current (internal) debate with the Marshals of the Mark in terms of what type of larger cruisers to build: the 9" armed Combat Cruisers or the 7.5" armed Belted Cruisers. The winner seems to be the Belted Cruisers as they are faster while still being armed to deal with other cruisers, but also being lightly armed enough to encourage commanding officers to not engage capital ships and battlecruisers. The Combat Cruisers of the Mark are likely to be replaced by the Battlecruisers. Rohan may build one more of its 12x9" armed Combat Cruisers to complete an operational division with the faster Valandil instead of operating her with the Battlecruisers (like Blucher was forced into doing to her death at Dogger Bank).
The 9" gun cruisers can hurt capital ships and Battlecruisers, but unless they have numbers on their side or capital ships to take the incoming fire, they are "easy" targets for capital ship guns (as seem iin the one major battle between the Rohirrim and the Anahuac, where Rohan lost one battleships, seven Armored Cruisers (Armored, Combat, and Belted), three protected cruisers, and two destroyers, while the Anahuac lost nine Armored Cruisers, six Battleships (one was actually captured and is now in service with Brandenburg), and four torpedo boats. Almost all of this was to heavy gunfire with only the lighter ships being lost to quickfire and medium secondary guns. Everything else was 7.5" fire and up (mostly 9" and 12" for Rohan). A good broadside from a 9" cruiser will hurt a pre-dreadnought battleship. However as we get into the dreadnought and super-dreadnought era, such broadsides will be less and less effective as the thickness and quality of the battleship's armor increases, as well and the combat ranges thanks to fire control.
Something smaller - the pre-Exeter I referred to earlier. Useful for smooshing lighter cruisers, but not up to dancing with an AC.
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1909
Displacement:
7,319 t light; 7,621 t standard; 8,650 t normal; 9,473 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
535.02 ft / 531.50 ft x 59.06 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
163.08 m / 162.00 m x 18.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
6 - 7.64" / 194 mm guns (3x2 guns), 222.78lbs / 101.05kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
1 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading anti-zeppelin gun in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline amidships, 1 raised gun
4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,502 lbs / 681 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 18.0" / 457 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 185.99 ft / 56.69 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 4.92" / 125 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - 0.98" / 25 mm
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 42,000 shp / 31,332 Kw = 27.13 kts
Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,852 tons)
Complement:
448 - 583
Cost:
£0.705 million / $2.820 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 188 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 1,806 tons, 20.9 %
- Belts: 830 tons, 9.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 337 tons, 3.9 %
- Armour Deck: 604 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Tower: 36 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,079 tons, 24.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,131 tons, 36.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,331 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 115 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,979 lbs / 4,526 Kg = 44.8 x 7.6 " / 194 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.490
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.01 ft / 6.10 m (12.14 ft / 3.70 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Stern: 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Average freeboard: 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121.1 %
Waterplane Area: 20,724 Square feet or 1,925 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 482 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.20
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
QuoteI'd almost say this is close to the current (internal) debate with the Marshals of the Mark in terms of what type of larger cruisers to build
Evidently a few of us are having this struggle. I'm starting to think that I should simply pick a position for GC to choose, whether I'm necessarily convinced by it or not.
As everyone is limited in BP, one must select whether to build heavy or armored cruisers, BCs or fast BBs. Orange will build heavy ACs and fast battleships, not BCs or small CAs, but it has the geostrategically most secure position of all major powers.
A 6x8" gunned ship won't worth much alone, as two 6"-gunned ship has a reasonable chance against the paltry RoF of 6 slow-firing guns. Most ACs with over 6" armor won't have to think about a second whether to engage - and unlike them, AGS had the disadvantage of having marginal armor (3-6") against the Exeter.
The point of building the 6x8" cruiser is to make a ship that can function alone in some situations, but be produced in sufficient quantity to not have to operate alone when faced with superior firepower. I'd rather have two 6x7.5" cruisers costing 14 BP/$14 operating in tandem than a single 10x7.5" costing cruiser costing 12 BP/$12 operating alone, if the two were equal in armor protection. In peacetime, the two ships could cover more area; in wartime they could be teamed togeather for superior firepower. Also, two targets are always harder to kill than one; one ca always do somethnig drastic to help the other escape if it looks like both might be lost.
I think the CSA will go with the 'mid-size' AC for the most part; whether I favor firepower or speed is yet to be seen though. Since my AC's will mostly be for long-range patrols in the calmer parts of the Atlantic and Pacific, I'm thinking about trading seakeeping for other things.
I think you all saw where i stand on the topic. Im building 6x10" cruisers which while not that fast (21 kts atm) do have room to grow. During wartime I expect them to operate in pairs, or as part of a larger cruiser group.
The DKB was planning on concentrating on large ACs/small BCs. Of course the plan has been completely cocked-hatted by now; we need everything.
DKB needs everything since they have now got (almost) nothing... courtesy of New Switzerland. ;D