Based on the experimental TR-1907X (to become TR-187 in service) class soon to be built by Rohan, the TR-192's also draw upon the Rohirrim Running Wolf-class which was based upon the TR-1907X. The TR-192-class begins a new design linage for Confederate Torpedo Rams- torpedo rams designed specifically to operate as fleet scouts. Armed with fewer, though heavier guns and outfitted with a Marconi, these new Torpedo Rams are designed to cross the Atlantic on a single fueling (albeit at a conservative speed). This long-range sailing capability gives the TR-192's the ability to preform the duties once filled by the overly-expensive and marginally-capable 3rd Class Cruisers of the late 19th Century.
A pair of 4.5"/50-pounder guns and six 57mm/6-pounders provide decent firepower while allowing sufficient deckspace for 4 x 19.5" torpedoes. The Marconi is beneath the waterline, affording a small amount of protection during a fight. The primary defense of the TR-192's will be their speed- 30 and 1/2 knots.
Between 5 and 8 are expected to be laid down in 1908.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/Navalism/FTR-192.png)
TR-192X, Confederate States of America Fleet Torpedo Ram laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
750 t light; 785 t standard; 880 t normal; 956 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
91.44 m / 91.44 m x 7.62 m x 2.74 m
Armament:
2 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 136 lbs / 62 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 19.5" / 495.3 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,000 shp / 14,920 Kw = 30.52 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 172 tons
Complement:
80 - 105
Cost:
£0.105 million / $0.420 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 16 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 12 tons, 1.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 8 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 468 tons, 53.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 240 tons, 27.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 130 tons, 14.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 14 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
214 lbs / 97 Kg = 4.7 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 10.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.456
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.42 ft / 3.48 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.8 %
Waterplane Area: 4,809 Square feet or 447 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 118 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.56
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
The high cost of the TR-192 and her sisters (8 under construction and 16 more planned) has raised some eyebrows at the Confederate Admiralty. Both Secretary Roosevelt and First Sea Lord Anderson feel that the new ship is too large and expensive for the coastal work traditionally done by torpedo rams. In order to offset this, specifications were put forth for a complementary class of torpedo ram- a smaller and less costly ship that could be deployed in large numbers, and built with ease in any shipyard.
The resulting design is- when considered remembering the limitations placed upon it's design- nothing short of astounding. The projected TR-200X class is capable of being constructed in a Level 0 port facility, able to reach almost 28 knots, and carries 4 of the new 20" torpedoes. Of course it has many drawbacks due to the limitations placed on it by its design requirements. Small ships are not very survivable, and the TR-200X is no exception. Virtually every penetrating shell will hit something vital. It's gun armament is light, meaning it is limited to torpedo attack or fleeing when faced with any ship larger than itself- meaning almost anything. Also, the powerful torque of the ship's single 12,000 shp Curtis turbine engine causes a slight list to port when it is at top speed... and thus the ship requires a degree of starboard rudder to maintain a steady course. This is more an annoyance than anything else, but it can be seen as one of the ship's defining characteristics.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/Navalism/TR-200.png)
TR-200X (projected for l1909)
Displacement:
500 t light; 518 t standard; 554 t normal; 583 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
230.00 ft / 225.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
70.10 m / 68.58 m x 6.10 m x 2.74 m
Armament:
2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
Weight of broadside 53 lbs / 24 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 12,000 shp / 8,952 Kw = 27.73 kts
Range 2,200nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 66 tons
Complement:
56 - 74
Cost:
£0.064 million / $0.256 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 8 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 282 tons, 50.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 194 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 54 tons, 9.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 14 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
165 lbs / 75 Kg = 5.2 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.51
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.479
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.53 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 13.02 ft / 3.97 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 53.1 %
Waterplane Area: 2,817 Square feet or 262 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 107 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 6.89
- Overall: 0.65
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with a Marconi (10 tons)*
Boy... the crickets are loud in here.
Wish I had some opinions to drown them out. ;)
Ahoj!
Hmmm ... slow, overarmed, only one shaft ... apart from that, excellent.
Borys
Ok... I might see about dropping one of the 4" guns to make it faster.
Thanks to Maddox for helping me trim it down this far.
As a way of comment, and to provide some form of comparison, here is the E/J class design of destroyer from the UNK. It is comparable with the 192 class. The nearest I have to the 200 class is the L class of 1906, but they only mounted 2, 3inch QF's
E & J Class, United Norman Kingdom Destroyer laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
750 t light; 778 t standard; 938 t normal; 1,065 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
302.47 ft / 300.00 ft x 28.60 ft x 8.50 ft (normal load)
92.19 m / 91.44 m x 8.72 m x 2.59 m
Armament:
5 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1908 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 77 lbs / 35 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 190
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14,762 shp / 11,012 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 4,886nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 287 tons
Complement:
84 - 110
Cost:
£0.100 million / $0.401 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 10 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 10 tons, 1.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 470 tons, 50.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 237 tons, 25.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 187 tons, 20.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 2.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
306 lbs / 139 Kg = 22.7 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.52
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 9.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.49 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.50 ft / 3.51 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 11.63 ft / 3.54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.0 %
Waterplane Area: 5,473 Square feet or 508 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 117 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
HMS Echo, Eclipse, Electra, Encounter, Escapade, Escort, Esk & Escape
HMS Jackal, Jaguar, Janus, Javelin, Jersey, Jervis, Juno & Jupiter
Borys,
The single shaft is a 'built-in flaw.' It's something to give it flavor.
I can always change it to be a two shaft design if it makes a huge difference. :)
I did try loosing one of the 4" guns, but it only gained 0.1 knots... not enough to justify loosing it.
Earl822,
Thanks for the comparison material.
I took into account the growing size of destroyers with the 192's, but was specifically looking at cheapness and speed of manufacture with the 200's. I'm really not sure whether to call these ships 'light destroyers' or 'heavy torpedo boats'. Designed to defend against torpedo boats, but to be cheap and expendable themselves, they are stuck in a strange niche between the two. I can produce 3 for the same price as you can produce 2 of your E & J's, and can construct 6 in the same length of time.
This was their primary design consideration- effectiveness through numbers. Like a Sherman compared to a Panther, they are neither as fast, nor as powerful, nor as survivable. One enemy cruiser might be able to kill 10 of them- but thy are designed so I am always able to produce that 11th one which tips the balance.
Hopefully, it's not a bad strategy.
I'd certainly keep the second gun if the result of losing it is just a tenth of a knot.
I don't think it's overarmed with respect to main battery or torpedos, but I do think both you and Earl822 have far more light guns than is really warranted.
I think it's a perfectly good defensive torpedo-craft. The speed is slow compared to your previous class, but it's still as good as any of my current designs and certainly enough to run down any capital ships lurking nearby.
Nomenclature-wise - just call them torpedo-rams like previous, smaller ships that have fulfilled the same basic function.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on August 17, 2007, 06:22:29 AM
I don't think it's overarmed with respect to main battery or torpedos, but I do think both you and Earl822 have far more light guns than is really warranted.
Nomenclature-wise - just call them torpedo-rams like previous, smaller ships that have fulfilled the same basic function.
Well, the 25mm's are just there to take up that last bit of weight.
I couldn't find deckspace for another 4", and wanted to have SOMETHING... and a 25mm can pierce splinter protection, making them good, easily handleable weapons with which to knock out main guns.
And all Confederate small vessels- destroyers or true torpedo boats are going to be called 'Torpedo Rams.' The Admiralty can't get out of that rut if they tried.
I like this sucker, especially with them torpedoes foward. Very similar to my own pocket destroyers. Quantity has a quality all of its own.
Quote from: Desertfox on August 17, 2007, 07:18:52 AM
Quantity has a quality all of its own.
Especially in a theater like the Gulf of Mexico, where range is not an issue.
Short cruise distances and really short-duration missions (like the pre-WWI Hochseeflote) mean that cruising range and accommodations can be skimped upon a bit in order to make the ship smaller and cheaper, without sacrificing too much in the way of combat capability.
Found my own design. Very similar except my design sacrifices seakeeping for speed. Do you need Excellent Seakeeping in the Gulf? Also mine has the TTs fixed on the sides instead of on twin centerline mounts.
Fritz II class, New Switzerland Destroyer laid down 1909
Displacement:
470 t light; 487 t standard; 545 t normal; 592 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
251.22 ft / 250.00 ft x 21.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
76.57 m / 76.20 m x 6.40 m x 2.74 m
Armament:
2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 68 lbs / 31 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 19.7" / 500.38 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14,775 shp / 11,022 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 2,400nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 105 tons
Complement:
56 - 73
Cost:
£0.064 million / $0.256 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 9 tons, 1.6 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 289 tons, 53.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 162 tons, 29.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 75 tons, 13.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 9 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
132 lbs / 60 Kg = 4.1 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.404
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Mid (50 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 10.08 ft / 3.07 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 184.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 57.5 %
Waterplane Area: 3,239 Square feet or 301 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 38 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 108 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.22
- Overall: 0.58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Mis weight:
5t WIDAR
4t Torpedoes
Excellent seakeeping was just a side effect of the hull lines.
It was so unintentional that I actually got a giggle out of it.
All I was trying to do was keep the forward gun crew dry. 8)
Speed on this ship was limited by two factors:
1.) weight - a key design requirement was that the ship was to use the least amount of materials as possible, in order to allow for a large production run while producing the least disruption to other projects already underway (i.e. not slowing up my Nuevo Leon's any more than necessary). This, by necessity, limited the weight of the ship and thus weight of the engines that I could install.
2.) hull size - the hull size was governed not so much by speed, but by other factors: carrying 4 torpedoes on minimum space, carrying a short-range Marconi transmitter, and a theoretical 2000 mile range of action (was to be 2400, but was lowered). A minimum gun armament (sufficient to threaten other destroyers in the neighborhood) was then added to the design. Only with all these requirements met did I go after speed.
Since the ship was meant more as a torpedo launch platform than a torpedo-boat destroyer outfitted with torpedoes, I chose 28 knots for a desired top speed. This would give it sufficient speed to run down any capital ship in the world without generating excessive expense. It would also place it on par with most other destroyers in the area, giving it a decent chance of fleeing a forced engagement. I couldn't quite get it to the desired speed, but I did manage to get it fast enough to make any destroyer around think twice about getting into an extended tail-chase with her. I think Rock Doc has a new oil-fired DD planned that beats her out by about 7/10 of a knot... which means that unless his ship get lucky and knock out my engines, it ain't gonna catch mine without dedicating a hard day's work towards the job. Also, considering that many of the destroyers in service in the world are still coal-fired designs, that means the enemy's stokers are gonna be dropping dead of exhaustion long before they can get into good gun range.
The centerline rotating torpedo mounts are for a reason as well. This ship- being designed as primarily a torpedo delivery system- needs the most flexibility that can be provided to her primary weapons. Rotating tubes mean that I can fire the torpedoes in most any direction I need to. That gives me a small advantage over your ship. Your design has to be pointing straight at your target, and can only begin to turn after the torpedoes have cleared you bows. My design can begin to turn while still firing her torpedoes, meaning I get to stay a couple of hundred yards farther out from my target... meaning that I'm a couple of hundred yards farther from her guns. In the days of manually aimed guns, those yards are precious. I've fired at long-range targets (aprox 1 mile, long range for a ground-pounder) with both a 40mm Mk 19 grenade launcher and a .50 caliber BMG; at that kind of range, you notice that the target 9 football fields away is MUCH easier to hit than the one 10 football fields away... and the one 12 football fields away is hard to SEE, much less hit.
So, there are my reasons for designing her the way I did.
Hopefully, I won't have to see the design tested in battle, because I'll probably be dead wrong... but they seemed like good, sound, rational decisions at the time. ;)
Just a word on the design's FLAWS:
Borys noted that she's a single-screw ship, and this causes problems- especially with low-speed handling. She has paired rudders to help limit the steering problems. She probably still needs help getting away from the pier, but this is nothing that a very cheap ICE powered boat (which would be so small and light as to be almost impossible to sim) cannot accomplish. Heck, a simple sloop-rigged shrimp boat with an axillary gas engine could do the job.
I might even sim a small tug, just for the heck of it, because of this need. :D
Quote from: Carthaginian on August 17, 2007, 01:47:43 PM
So, there are my reasons for designing her the way I did.
Hopefully, I won't have to see the design tested in battle, because I'll probably be dead wrong... but they seemed like good, sound, rational decisions at the time. ;)
Great post!
It is always fun and interesting to hear what thinking is behind different designs and what lead up the compromises that was made.
However afraid that I do not have a lot of feedback on the designs themselves, they are both quite solid (I would have preferred more guns, but that is just me).
Please sim out some sort of fleet tug. I'm going to need to build some in the near future I think.
Here's the kind of little yardbird that my destroyers would need to drag them into and out of their quays. She's so infinitesimally cheap and light that she's almost not worth budgeting in, though I might actually do it, just to start getting rid of those annoying little fractions that I can't really carry over. ;) I'll do a fleet tug later on.
Yard Tug, Confederate States of America Tugboat laid down 1909
Displacement:
50 t light; 52 t standard; 55 t normal; 57 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
75.00 ft / 75.00 ft x 15.00 ft x 5.00 ft (normal load)
22.86 m / 22.86 m x 4.57 m x 1.52 m
Armament:
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships
Weight of broadside 7 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Petrol Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 200 shp / 149 Kw = 12.81 kts
Range 1,500nm at 7.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5 tons
Complement:
9 - 13
Cost:
£0.004 million / $0.015 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 1 tons, 1.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 1.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 9 tons, 16.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 25 tons, 45.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5 tons, 8.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 26.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
99 lbs / 45 Kg = 17.4 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 0.3 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.342
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 8.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Mid (50 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Stern: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 6.86 ft / 2.09 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.6 %
Waterplane Area: 684 Square feet or 64 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 88 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.74
- Longitudinal: 14.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
A larger tug design for capital ship work... still not a fleet tug, but the best I can do without a steam engine.
Displacement:
100 t light; 107 t standard; 126 t normal; 141 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
115.00 ft / 100.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 5.00 ft (normal load)
35.05 m / 30.48 m x 6.10 m x 1.52 m
Armament:
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 20 lbs / 9 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.20" / 5 mm - -
2nd: 0.20" / 5 mm - -
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Petrol Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 400 shp / 299 Kw = 13.60 kts
Range 3,000nm at 9.60 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 35 tons
Complement:
18 - 24
Cost:
£0.008 million / $0.032 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 18 tons, 14.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 55 tons, 43.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 26 tons, 20.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 19.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
278 lbs / 126 Kg = 49.2 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.76
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.441
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 10.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 28
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.60 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Mid (50 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Stern: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 8.46 ft / 2.58 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.8 %
Waterplane Area: 1,267 Square feet or 118 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 156 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.79
- Longitudinal: 8.95
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
A large fleet tug, with enough power to tow a warship for short distances.
She won't make more than a couple of knots or go more than a few hundred miles, but 1000 shp should move most anything.
*EDIT: Made it a point to check out the HP figures. 1000shp is sufficient to move my Nuevo Leon battleships (17kt light) at over 7 knots. So, it looks like this ship could tow most capital ships at 5 knots or better for 4000 n. mi. without breaking a sweat.
Displacement:
400 t light; 419 t standard; 583 t normal; 714 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
215.00 ft / 200.00 ft x 35.00 ft x 6.00 ft (normal load)
65.53 m / 60.96 m x 10.67 m x 1.83 m
Armament:
1 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
Weight of broadside 41 lbs / 18 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
4th: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1,000 ihp / 746 Kw = 14.32 kts
Range 4,000nm at 14.32 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 294 tons
Complement:
59 - 77
Cost:
£0.028 million / $0.112 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 0.8 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 70 tons, 12.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 242 tons, 41.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 183 tons, 31.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 13.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,959 lbs / 888 Kg = 145.1 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.61
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 9.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.89
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.486
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.71 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 27
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17.35 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Stern: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 10.49 ft / 3.20 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 62.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.9 %
Waterplane Area: 4,605 Square feet or 428 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 222 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 186 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
And yes, I did a drawing for it.
These little craft are designed for coastal defense. They aren't extremely fast or powerful, but they are cheap and can be mass produced. I'm not sure whether or not having a dozen or so (per site) to plug choke points and guard harbors would be a good idea or not, but it was fun to see just how small I could design a 'good' torpedo boat with Springsharp.
I just wish that I could get her faster.
If I could get 28 knots out of it, it'd be worth it.
Also, could these be built to 'merchant standard?"
Just curious, as I've seen other armed ships built that way, and all these basically are is a yacht with a couple of light guns and a pair of torps.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/PTB-01.png)
Patrol Craft #1, Confederate States of America Patrol Boat (Torpedo) laid down 1909
Displacement:
300 t light; 309 t standard; 322 t normal; 333 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
180.00 ft / 180.00 ft x 19.00 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
54.86 m / 54.86 m x 5.79 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
2 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16 lbs / 7 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
2 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 8,000 shp / 5,968 Kw = 26.58 kts
Range 1,000nm at 10.24 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 24 tons
Complement:
37 - 49
Cost:
£0.036 million / $0.146 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 174 tons, 54.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 122 tons, 37.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 22 tons, 7.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
111 lbs / 50 Kg = 19.6 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.412
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.42 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 11.46 ft / 3.49 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.4 %
Waterplane Area: 2,008 Square feet or 187 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 43 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 20 lbs/sq ft or 100 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 8.17
- Overall: 0.67
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 04, 2007, 11:08:15 PM
Also, could these be built to 'merchant standard?"
Just curious, as I've seen other armed ships built that way, and all these basically are is a yacht with a couple of light guns and a pair of torps.
I would say "No", as there are no civilian ships with turbines at this time.
Other then my minesweepers i think that the only armed ships built to merchant standard are auxillliaries, neither intended for combat.
And my lucky TB killing avisos ... :)
Quote from: Korpen on September 05, 2007, 12:22:11 AM
I would say "No", as there are no civilian ships with turbines at this time.
The first ship with turbines was a civilian ship, Korpen. ;)
Also, liners with turbines are being built at this time as well, IIRC.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 05, 2007, 07:25:29 AM
Quote from: Korpen on September 05, 2007, 12:22:11 AM
I would say "No", as there are no civilian ships with turbines at this time.
The first ship with turbines was a civilian ship, Korpen. ;)
Also, liners with turbines are being built at this time as well, IIRC.
Point.
But neither are what you would call in general usage, unless things are different here on the civilian side, the first liners with turbines were built in 1905.
Generally I dont thinkwarships should be built to "merchant standard", as that creates other problems with balance.
Quote from: Korpen on September 05, 2007, 07:40:24 AM
Point.
But neither are what you would call in general usage, unless things are different here on the civilian side, the first liners with turbines were built in 1905.
Generally I don't think warships should be built to "merchant standard", as that creates other problems with balance.
Well, these aren't really 'warships.'
They are something more like a WWI subchaser... they are a civilian design co-opted for military service and armed as a patrol boat. They aren't going to survive even a single hit with any real weapon. I was even thinking about having them made out of wood if possible (the boiler compartment would be protected from fires by metal cladding).
They aren't really meant to go out and do combat every day of the week. They are meant to putter around a the mouth of a bay/sound and make sure no one tries to come in, and to rush out, fire torps, and rush back in to spread the good word if they survive. No way they'd survive even a fight with an antiquated destroyer.
They are patrol craft... nothing more, and certainly not proper warships.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 05, 2007, 08:01:41 AM
Well, these aren't really 'warships.'
They are something more like a WWI subchaser... they are a civilian design co-opted for military service and armed as a patrol boat. They aren't going to survive even a single hit with any real weapon. I was even thinking about having them made out of wood if possible (the boiler compartment would be protected from fires by metal cladding).
They aren't really meant to go out and do combat every day of the week. They are meant to putter around a the mouth of a bay/sound and make sure no one tries to come in, and to rush out, fire torps, and rush back in to spread the good word if they survive. No way they'd survive even a fight with an antiquated destroyer.
They are patrol craft... nothing more, and certainly not proper warships.
I would say they are highly unsuited for that, direct-drive turbines have a fuel efficiency that is horrible at low speeds, for a ships that will do allot of low-speed steaming, expansion engines are better.
But the thing that marks this ship as a warship is mainly its enormous engines; it got about as much power as a fast ocean liner fifteen times as big.
Quote from: Korpen on September 05, 2007, 08:14:16 AM
I would say they are highly unsuited for that, direct-drive turbines have a fuel efficiency that is horrible at low speeds, for a ships that will do allot of low-speed steaming, expansion engines are better.
But the thing that marks this ship as a warship is mainly its enormous engines; it got about as much power as a fast ocean liner fifteen times as big.
Top Fuel dragsters are also poor performers at low speed, Korpen, but drive easily 50x the distance at low speed that they do at high speed. Also, the engine is very powerful, but the rest of the vehicle is actually quite flimsy, and quite simply built. You could buy most of the parts necessary to build the frame at the average hardware store, and could fabricate the rest out of materials found there.
This is a nautical version of those cars- a civilian racing boat (like
Turbinia)- with torps on the bows and a few guns to give the larger mosquitoes a hard time.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 05, 2007, 08:30:22 AM
Top Fuel dragsters are also poor performers at low speed, Korpen, but drive easily 50x the distance at low speed that they do at high speed. Also, the engine is very powerful, but the rest of the vehicle is actually quite flimsy, and quite simply built. You could buy most of the parts necessary to build the frame at the average hardware store, and could fabricate the rest out of materials found there.
This is a nautical version of those cars- a civilian racing boat (like Turbinia)- with torps on the bows and a few guns to give the larger mosquitoes a hard time.
And just like dragster, it is the engines that are expensive, more then 2/3 of the cost in this case is the engines. The hull is only about ¼ of the cost.
I am not saying that the ship cannot work for its intended purpose, just that is not very efficient as a patrol boat, and that it in no way could be built to merchant standard.
OK, I'll concede the point there.
Though if you are thinking that the ship wouldn't be better than a VTE patrol boat with half the speed, remember that it's primary job it to shoot torpedoes, not to fight with guns. Gunboats can be slow, but torpedo boats must be fast.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 05, 2007, 09:01:27 AM
OK, I'll concede the point there.
Though if you are thinking that the ship wouldn't be better than a VTE patrol boat with half the speed, remember that it's primary job it to shoot torpedoes, not to fight with guns. Gunboats can be slow, but torpedo boats must be fast.
Like i said, (in a roundabout way), on that I fully agree! As a disposable torpedo attack craft they are first rate. :)
It is just that I think that the demands for a patrol craft and the one for a fast torpedo attack craft are pretty much in opposition towards each other.
oh im with you on speed man. Speed kills, which is why im working on a 31 knot 750 toner.....
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 05, 2007, 09:08:04 AM
oh im with you on speed man. Speed kills, which is why im working on a 31 knot 750 toner.....
Well, see the beginning of this thread... though you might wanna give her a higher freeboard to keep her from being wet. ;)
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 05, 2007, 09:08:04 AM
oh im with you on speed man. Speed kills, which is why im working on a 31 knot 750 toner.....
The question being; Who does the speed kill, the torpedoboot or its target? ;)
The tricky bit with TB designs is deciding what you want the ship to do.
If you want a ship to specialize on torpedo attacks, and only do that mission then it is not that hard to build 31+ kts ship.
So true lol... I just sell out for speed, actualy going to be a build theory for me speed above all else. Well once i get better turbines anyway.
You sound Swiss. ;) Then again the Swiss are the N-Verse Italians! ;D You want turbines...?
Quote from: Desertfox on September 05, 2007, 04:22:53 PM
You sound Swiss. ;) Then again the Swiss are the N-Verse Italians! ;D You want turbines...?
LOL i have them i just cant use them till 1908 ><. So im stuck with questionable designs for now ><.
Hm, so now we got two speed freaks here... ;)
I really have to convince more people of the superiority of more and bigger guns. 8)
Rohan is the more and bigger guns type, as are the French and probably the Russians. Rohan has started going for speed after having been forced into close quarters combat with the Anahuac Fleet during the war. The 13 - 15 knot warships just can't decide the battle ranges if one wants to fight at range with big guns if your opponent can close at 18+ knots.
Orange requirements are dictated by the most probable enemy. That is, the DKB. As the DKB Admiralstab currently consists of speed freaks (23-25kts BBs, 28kts CLs, 25-27kts CAs), Kaapstad have to design ships with similar focus.
Well if you joined the war right now you wouldn't have to worry about the DKB later on. ;)
Although most nations do not wish to see the war escalate further into a true global conflict... especially with it's dubious origins.
*a litle signs says*
NO SOLICITATION
POST NO BILLS
;)
Quote from: Desertfox on September 06, 2007, 09:20:57 AM
Well if you joined the war right now you wouldn't have to worry about the DKB later on. ;)
The Republic of Orange increased its territory by 300%, and just finished a war 2 years previously. There was no preparations made at all for an offensive war in 1908.
And NS-Orange relations also cooled down a bit.
Who says you have to be friends with NS to join? ;) What your not Evil enough to want to increase your territory by another 300%? ;D No one made any preparations for an offensive war and yet here we are.
QuoteAlthough most nations do not wish to see the war escalate further into a true global conflict... especially with it's dubious origins.
Hey we are due for WWI aren't we? Now
that war had dubious origins.
Quote from: Desertfox on September 06, 2007, 01:07:46 PM
QuoteAlthough most nations do not wish to see the war escalate further into a true global conflict... especially with it's dubious origins.
Hey we are due for WWI aren't we? Now that war had dubious origins.
LOL... they were NOT dubious.
The reasons for WWI were PERFECTLY clear:
1.) A little boy wanted big boats. His Uncle told the little boy not to build more big boats than he had. The little boy tried to anyway, and the Uncle got mad. When the little boy picked on one of the already angry Uncle's weak friends, the Uncle seized the excuse and sank the little boy's big boats.
2.) An egomaniac wanted to control Europe from single room in Berlin. He made bookoodles of back room deals in order to ensnare every possible leader he could. When his mastery of subtle manipulation was removed from the picture, those secret alliances fell apart and former allies went at each other's throats.
3.)Two old friends had always wanted the same job as president of their company. One was an excellent organizationalist but a bit uptight, the other was a strong performer even if he was a bit snobby. Eventually, they decided that they had to find out who was better qualified for the top slot, and it came to blows.
I know it's a bit simplistic... but I think it about sums things up. ;)
Ahoj!
There are 1000+ post threads on the "whodunnit" of WWI on several boards I know ...
And laying the blame on Germany is total excrementum bovinum. For various reasons everybody wanted a war.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on September 06, 2007, 10:28:27 PM
Ahoj!
There are 1000+ post threads on the "whodunnit" of WWI on several boards I know ...
And laying the blame on Germany is total excrementum bovinum. For various reasons everybody wanted a war.
Borys
Agreed, basicly Everyone was in the wrong. The Peace they gave Germany wasnt fair honestly either. Which is why the US didnt sign it and made their own peace with germany.
Quote from: Borys on September 06, 2007, 10:28:27 PM
Ahoj!
There are 1000+ post threads on the "whodunnit" of WWI on several boards I know ...
And laying the blame on Germany is total excrementum bovinum. For various reasons everybody wanted a war.
Borys
Like I said... it was just the two biggest kids on the block.
Eventually, the question 'who's stronger' is gonna come up.
When those kinds of things are made worse by the kind of family squabbles that dynastic Europe suffered from, the whole continent was a time bomb.
I can actually empathize a bit with the Kaiser. He thought the way to win Britain over would be to impress her with something she understood. His mindset couldn't conceive that 'impressive' and 'dangerous' went hand and hand where England and naval power were concerned. Likewise, Britain couldn't see the innocent desire that the Kaiser had (in the beginning) to simply form a powerful union of the Germanic dynasties.
The fact that the two most hardheaded, flamboyant members of the Hanoverian dynasty were the ones trying to resolve the situation was definitely not a big help, either.
Just to see how it looks, here's the TR-200 in 4 pix = 1 foot scale. I like the way it turned out, even though I can't get the life boats/launches quite right. I haven't added portholes, anchors or boats yet, but I will soon. What do ya'll think?
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/TR-200.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/TR-200.png)
looks good to me man
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 25, 2007, 03:33:14 PM
Just to see how it looks, here's the TR-200 in 4 pix = 1 foot scale. I like the way it turned out, even though I can't get the life boats/launches quite right. I haven't added portholes, anchors or boats yet, but I will soon. What do ya'll think?
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/TR-200.png)
Very nice, a huge improvement. (hm i think i need to put a bit more effort into my own drawings...)
Just a tiny bit of nitpicking, make the image a bit longer so we can see the beautiful ass of the ship ;)
But really, really nice :)
Oh, don't get your hopes up... I don't have the time to do that on every ship. :( School and life are just to demanding at the moment. I definitely couldn't go back and redo, say, the Nuevo Leons like that. But I DO have all my guns on that scale now, and will begin doing more ships like that as time allows.
Oh, she's got a really, uninteresting ass, kinda flat and not too nice.
I like round asses myself. ;)
But the small fry without a lot of details... well, I think I can manage doing them at this scale.
Like that new little sloop that I'm planning for patrolling my coasts.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 25, 2007, 03:55:24 PM
Oh, don't get your hopes up... I don't have the time to do that on every ship. :( School and life are just to demanding at the moment. I definitely couldn't go back and redo, say, the Nuevo Leons like that. But I DO have all my guns on that scale now, and will begin doing more ships like that as time allows.
Oh, she's got a really, uninteresting ass, kinda flat and not too nice.
I like round asses myself. ;)
But the small fry without a lot of details... well, I think I can manage doing them at this scale.
Like that new little sloop that I'm planning for patrolling my coasts.
Hm, it is always the first ones that take loads of time and work, after that is is just a matter of cut-and-past from previous drawings ;)
As for the stern, are you certain you cannot give the lady a nice rounded a.., stern? :)
Well, I didn't really account for any overhang in one way or another, and I'm not all that good at shading as of yet. I've gotta find a good freeware program that will do that.
Thanks for all the kind words, guys... in the next 3-5 days, I'm gonna be putting out a new, oddball ship that will also be at this scale. It's gonna be a stunner; it'll be useful and within my tech, but odd.
Glad to see I have a Kindred soul on the other side of the Atlantic.
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 25, 2007, 10:01:06 PM
Glad to see I have a Kindred soul on the other side of the Atlantic.
Oh, you have no idea how odd it'll be... ;)
The project name is '
Practical, SRPC, Study #1.'
Enough clues... the SS is done; time to commence to drawing.
WATCH THIS SPACE
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V
Ok so maybe you are crazier than me... I doubt it but we shall see.
You haven't seen the King of Crazziness yet...
Wheeee! A pissing contest!
That would be Walter if I remember correctly. At least with story material.
Quote from: Borys on September 25, 2007, 10:44:11 PM
Wheeee! A pissing contest!
LOL
BEWARE: those are NOT drops of sunshine falling from the sky, folks. ;)
Come on im staying up till i see your crazy new ship (gets out bull whip, and scratches head what was i going to do with this again)
OK, people... here it is. I simmed it for 1909 laydown, because that's when I plan to produce them (my dance card is full up for 1908). Practical is the project name, and you can see why. She's nothing sexy at all, practical is the word here; a simple, short-ranged patrol sloop. It's maximized for the best seakeeping I can squeeze out of it, and it's armed for fisheries protection and customs duties.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/S-01.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/S-01.png)
'Practical', Confederate States of America Sloop laid down 1909
Displacement:
150 t light; 157 t standard; 201 t normal; 237 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
160.00 ft / 150.00 ft x 15.00 ft x 5.50 ft (normal load)
48.77 m / 45.72 m x 4.57 m x 1.68 m
Armament:
1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 29 lbs / 13 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
1 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Conning tower: 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Petrol Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 800 shp / 597 Kw = 15.85 kts
Range 4,000nm at 11.02 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 80 tons
Complement:
26 - 34
Cost:
£0.013 million / $0.052 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 1.6 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 36 tons, 18.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 105 tons, 52.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 51 tons, 25.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
376 lbs / 171 Kg = 17.5 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 0.3 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 10.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.568
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17.37 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (6.00 ft / 1.83 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Stern: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 10.58 ft / 3.22 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.1 %
Waterplane Area: 1,598 Square feet or 148 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 194 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 104 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.74
- Longitudinal: 14.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
LOL... bet you guys were looking for a crazy-sexy-cool warship, huh? ;)
ewwwwww its itty bitty.....
Quote from: Tanthalas on September 25, 2007, 11:26:23 PM
ewwwwww its itty bitty.....
LOL... well, you gotta have SOMETHING for those career lieutenants to drive, now don't you? ;)
Besides, just because they are small don't mean they aren't necessary. I have a lot of coastline, and building ships like this to guard them is a lot smarter than building scads and scads of bigger or faster ships that are a lot more expensive. Also, these little guys are capible of going up every river in Dixie.
Imagine the game warden coming after you in THIS. :D
Ahoj!
I like it.
But 8 light cannon on her - are the fishermen and smugglers that heavily armed and armoured?
Borys
QuoteDisplacement:
150 t light; 157 t standard; 201 t normal; 237 t full load
...
Petrol Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 800 shp / 597 Kw = 15.85 kts
Range 4,000nm at 11.02 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 80 tons
I nominate than the first two boats should be named
CSN Ronson and CSN Zippo.
If you listen to the Japanese today, every American is armed and one will acost you at somepoint in a two week trip.
Oddly enough, many Americans are armed...some are armed with enough hardware to equip a platoon in light arms up to and including .50 cal handguns and Swedish Mausers.
Borys:
You missed the torpedo tube too, didn't you?
P3D:
Nothing's perfect. I don't have diesel engines yet, and this ship is just plain too small for anything else. I COULD put turbines on her, but that defeats the 'simple and cheap' mentality of the whole project. Likely, the first batch will be called 'deathtraps' and I'll buy diesel engines or research them ASAP in order to correct the flaws in the next group of sloops.
Quote from: Ithekro on September 25, 2007, 11:35:14 PM
Oddly enough, many Americans are armed...some are armed with enough hardware to equip a platoon in light arms up to and including .50 cal handguns and Swedish Mausers.
Most can't outfit a platoon, but they can definitely make a well-equipped squad. ;)
Seriously, a technical question:
Can I not sim the engines as 'petrol' and fuel them with something other than gasoline?
Most privately owned vehicles in the CSA (few and far between ATM) are powered by ethanol. It's not nearly as explosive as gasoline, and is judged 'safer' by the manufacturers. Since I'm such a farming powerhouse, I can handle producing enough ethanol for my domestic ICE fuel needs.
I don't see any reason that I couldn't do this- after all, the Model T ran equally good on either gas or ethanol.
Ahoj!
Yes, I missed the torpedo - gosh, the guys going after Bambi must be armed to the teeth ...
I see no problem with ethanol or parafin or kerosene.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on September 25, 2007, 11:45:51 PM
Ahoj!
Yes, I missed the torpedo - gosh, the guys going after Bambi must be armed to the teeth ...
I see no problem with ethanol or parafin or kerosene.
Borys
I might be wrong, but is not an engine that runs on parafin oil a disel engine in all but name?
Quote from: Borys on September 25, 2007, 11:45:51 PM
Yes, I missed the torpedo - gosh, the guys going after Bambi must be armed to the teeth ...
I see no problem with ethanol or parafin or kerosene.
Well, it never hurts to be prepared, you know.
And the torpedo gives these little guys genuine teeth. I know that 15 knots is very slow, but they can also be used to cause some havoc at night with those torpedoes. Their engines will be virtually smokeless burning ethanol, and you wouldn't be able to hear them till they got pretty close. For an armed merchantman turned pirate, it'd be an interesting fight.
And the Socialists sank a few ships last year, and derailed a train as well.
I haven't forgotten that... and don't intend to.
Soon, all the trouble they have begun will come home to roost.
Quote from: Korpen on September 25, 2007, 11:50:57 PM
I might be wrong, but is not an engine that runs on parafin oil a disel engine in all but name?
This is why I asked about ethanol.
Engines configured to burn it are virtually identical to gasoline engines.
Well, except for the going *BOOM* part.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 25, 2007, 11:52:27 PM
And the torpedo gives these little guys genuine teeth. I know that 15 knots is very slow, but they can also be used to cause some havoc at night with those torpedoes. Their engines will be virtually smokeless burning ethanol, and you wouldn't be able to hear them till they got pretty close. For an armed merchantman turned pirate, it'd be an interesting fight.
You know, if you don't allow people to own quite as much military hardware, it might be little need for that kind of firepower. After all, owm amny really need QF gun and howitzers to protect their ships and homes? ;)
I think you missed something, Korpen. :P
Probably a critique or outright flame... but it's missing. :D
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 26, 2007, 12:16:16 AM
I think you missed something, Korpen. :P
Probably a critique or outright flame... but it's missing. :D
Note to self: do not try and write something before eight in the morning at the earliest...
LOL... I'm about to have been up for an even 20 hours.
I feel your pain.
And the right to keep and bear arms is extended to every Confederate citizen.
Granted the ownership of 'cannon' is forbidden in all States, but other than that, it's all fair game.
I don't know, I've seen some nice looking "hand-cannons" in my time.
And squad is probably closer to realistic terms than a platoon, but there are some that have rather large collections.
Quote from: Ithekro on September 25, 2007, 10:55:07 PM
That would be Walter if I remember correctly. At least with story material.
... and more. :)
When I get home, I'll try to find one of my insane designs. ;D
The range might be a little high for something so small, but otherwise
Practical is exactly that. Good to see other folks finding value in basic patrol assets. I'll comment on the pic when I get home - the DD was certainly off to a good start.
Quote
LOL... I'm about to have been up for an even 20 hours.
Don't worry - once you're married, your wife will be telling you to pack it in by about ten o'clock or so.
You had me thinking you'd be showing us something zany. Oh well...
Those of you who are veterans of the Warships1 message board, might still remember this design I posted for some weird design competition some time ago (April 2005). The design is fairly normal, except for the unusually high miscellaneous weight. The weird stuff is the miscellaneous weights breakdown that I added at the bottom of the sim. :D
HMSMS Snurgonia, Snurgonia Royal Battleyacht laid down 1920
Displacement:
43,961 t light; 46,072 t standard; 50,273 t normal; 53,635 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
829.76 ft / 825.00 ft x 95.00 ft (Bulges 105.00 ft) x 32.50 ft (normal load)
252.91 m / 251.46 m x 28.96 m (Bulges 32.00 m) x 9.91 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,800.00lbs / 816.47kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 90.00lbs / 40.82kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
3 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 14.00lbs / 6.35kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16,242 lbs / 7,367 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 11.70 ft / 3.57 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 11.70 ft / 3.57 m
15.00 ft / 4.57 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.00" / 51 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 30.47 ft / 9.29 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 8.00" / 203 mm - 8.00" / 203 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 169,326 shp / 126,317 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 26,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,563 tons
Complement:
1,678 - 2,182
Cost:
£9.372 million / $37.488 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,902 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 13,438 tons, 26.7 %
- Belts: 5,123 tons, 10.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,240 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 3,407 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 3,256 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 411 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 5,921 tons, 11.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,701 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,313 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6,000 tons, 11.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
58,432 lbs / 26,504 Kg = 34.6 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 8.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 19.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.625
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.72 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (70 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (24 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 22.76 ft / 6.94 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.8 %
Waterplane Area: 58,672 Square feet or 5,451 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 191 lbs/sq ft or 932 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
King's Room ------------------------------------------- 80 tons
Queen's Room ------------------------------------------ 50 tons
Royal Bedroom ---------------------------------------- 100 tons
Royal Dining Room ------------------------------------- 60 tons
Royal Study Room -------------------------------------- 60 tons
Royal Throne Room ------------------------------------ 200 tons
Royal Guards Rooms (200) ---------------------------- 1200 tons
Royal Advisors Rooms (7) ----------------------------- 105 tons
Pools (2) --------------------------------------------3140 tons
Drawbridge + operating system ------------------------- 20 tons
Crane ------------------------------------------------- 10 tons
Float planes + gear (2) ------------------------------- 50 tons
100 foot motor yacht --------------------------------- 154 tons
Troops boat ------------------------------------------ 116 tons
Extra water supply ----------------------------------- 100 tons
Marble decoration Pools ------------------------------- 80 tons
Gold decoration in the various Royal Rooms ----------- 250 tons
Statue of King Snurg XXXIV of Snurgonia and his wife - 105 tons
Guard towers on superstructure (4) ------------------- 120 tons
Total ----------------------------------------------- 6000 tons
Before this one, there was the special vessel for the Empress, HIJMS Kameko-chan, in Wesworld...
http://88.198.26.117/kunden/oponn/wbblite/thread.php?postid=9490#post9490
Ignoring the fact that the cruiser is painted pink and that the swimming pool is armored, the rest of the ship is fairly normal.
There was also this idea of having a group vandalize one of my vessels with a 'special' color scheme.
Latest weirdness is the Flightdeck Casino.
http://88.198.26.117/kunden/oponn/wbblite/thread.php?postid=31553#post31553
The Special Villain Facilities and the flashing sign on the side make this one almost impossible to beat when it comes to weirdness. ;D
Pictures of the CL Kameko-chan with its unusual color as well as the CDS Urarake normal and abnormal version. The pictures are quite old and a bit crappy compared to some of my more recent stuff.
Unique :)
I'm preforming my little resurrection miracle on this thread to publish the finalized forms of the TR-200 and S-01 just for the record. The TR-200 has sacrificed a couple of tenths of a knot to have a more 'shapely stern' by request ;), and the S-01 had a plethora of changes, including MORE FIREPOWER, a splinter-proof belt and an 1" thick armored fuel tank (simulated by a 1/4" of deck armor; since the fuel tank will be much smaller, it would be much thicker).
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/S-01.png)
S-01, Confederate States of America Sloop laid down 1909
Displacement:
200 t light; 210 t standard; 256 t normal; 293 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
185.00 ft / 175.00 ft x 18.00 ft x 5.50 ft (normal load)
56.39 m / 53.34 m x 5.49 m x 1.68 m
Armament:
1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 2.25" / 57.2 mm guns in single mounts, 5.00lbs / 2.27kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 37 lbs / 17 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
1 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm 81.00 ft / 24.69 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 71 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 0.25" / 6 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Petrol Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 800 shp / 597 Kw = 15.53 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.63 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 83 tons
Complement:
31 - 41
Cost:
£0.016 million / $0.063 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 29 tons, 11.3 %
- Belts: 16 tons, 6.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 10 tons, 3.9 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 36 tons, 14.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 128 tons, 50.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 56 tons, 21.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
637 lbs / 289 Kg = 29.7 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 10.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.517
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.72 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.23 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.45 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (6.00 ft / 1.83 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Stern: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 10.37 ft / 3.16 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.5 %
Waterplane Area: 2,132 Square feet or 198 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 185 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 120 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.80
- Longitudinal: 7.49
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Armored deck represents the 1" thick armored fuel tank.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/TR-200.png)
TR-200, Confederate States of America Torpedo Ram laid down 1909
Displacement:
500 t light; 518 t standard; 554 t normal; 583 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
230.00 ft / 220.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
70.11 m / 67.06 m x 6.10 m x 2.74 m
Armament:
2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
Weight of broadside 53 lbs / 24 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Conning tower: 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 12,000 shp / 8,952 Kw = 27.58 kts
Range 2,200nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 65 tons
Complement:
56 - 74
Cost:
£0.064 million / $0.255 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 8 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 280 tons, 50.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 189 tons, 34.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 54 tons, 9.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
161 lbs / 73 Kg = 5.0 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.43
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.490
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 16.40 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 12.94 ft / 3.94 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 51.0 %
Waterplane Area: 2,787 Square feet or 259 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 107 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 6.89
- Overall: 0.64
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Edited because somehow two superimposed bow tubes on the S-01[/1] requires a 10' longer belt than a single one? WTF! The darn things ARE NOT being placed end-to-end! They are stacked on top of each other! Get it together, SS!!
As noted in a PM, I'd like the patrol vessel more with a wireless.
Your DD is pretty good - the cross-sectional hull strength is 0.51, though, so you could probably squeeze a few more tonnes into miscellaneous weight. It might come in handy some time.
Like the pics, but I'll stick to my tiny 1 pixel = 1 foot sketches...
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 22, 2007, 07:19:51 AM
As noted in a PM, I'd like the patrol vessel more with a wireless.
Alas, she's just too light. Even by removing the 3.5" gun, both torpedo tubes, and the armor belt I can just barely squeeze in the wireless. Probably, a special 'radio sloop' based on the
Maccaroni will work in each group. ;) You didn't think I'd forgotten her, now did you?
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 22, 2007, 07:19:51 AM
Your DD is pretty good - the cross-sectional hull strength is 0.51, though, so you could probably squeeze a few more tonnes into miscellaneous weight. It might come in handy some time.
Done, and say 'thank ya'!
An extra 6t was squeezed in at your recommendation.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 22, 2007, 07:19:51 AM
Like the pics, but I'll stick to my tiny 1 pixel = 1 foot sketches...
Oh, this was just to be showy... most of my stuff will stay 1:1 as well; I might just do some of the smaller, simpler ones like this to make something pretty now and again.
designs re-edited... view the edit note to see why... screwy math...
Interesting, also, that this implies a torpedo to be just ten feet long.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 23, 2007, 04:51:42 PM
Interesting, also, that this implies a torpedo to be just ten feet long.
LOL... yeah, I didn't think about it that way.