I have to spend my budget on a few ships, so I will have to lay down at least one ship of this class. I managed to squeeze it into a cheaper hull for the price of shorter range.
Orange Battleship, laid down in 1905
Displacement:
13,741 t light; 14,430 t standard; 15,640 t normal; 16,608 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
490.00 ft / 490.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
149.35 m / 149.35 m x 21.34 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305mm/45 guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,534 lbs / 2,964 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour (advanced, 1.05/1.15):
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 6.30" / 160 mm 140.00 ft / 42.67 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
19.00 ft / 5.79 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 7.50 ft / 2.29 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.7" / 347 mm 7.35" / 187 mm 11.6" / 293 mm
2nd: 6.30" / 160 mm - 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 13.65" / 347 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19,997 shp / 14,918 Kw = 19.92 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,178 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
699 - 909
Cost:
£1.398 million / $5.592 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 817 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 6,409 tons, 41.0 %
- Belts: 2,793 tons, 17.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 386 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 1,424 tons, 9.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,622 tons, 10.4 %
- Conning Tower: 184 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,650 tons, 10.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,845 tons, 31.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,899 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,974 lbs / 8,153 Kg = 20.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.614
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.59 ft / 7.19 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.77 ft / 4.50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.9 %
Waterplane Area: 25,412 Square feet or 2,361 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 642 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
For a cheap hull it seems just as capable as my much larger battleship...
I am only $1 or so cheaper.
You ship is just oversized for carrying 6x12" guns. Historical Tegethoff carried 12x12" on a shorter hull.
After looking at some radical ideas (like the inclined belt in the 'New Ironsides' study) Orange designer came out with this design which caused the Minister of Finance faint. The size of the ship is the consequence of the speed requiremet - 23kts, not much slower than the two Brandenburger Schlachtkreuzers. 1kts cost around 1000t for the ship.
Orange BB study, laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
28,000 t light; 29,446 t standard; 31,385 t normal; 32,936 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
659.00 ft / 659.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
200.86 m / 200.86 m x 30.48 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft
4 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1907 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 14,053 lbs / 6,374 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 4.20" / 107 mm 279.00 ft / 85.04 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Upper: 7.35" / 187 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.8" / 400 mm 8.40" / 213 mm 14.7" / 373 mm
2nd: 15.8" / 400 mm 8.40" / 213 mm 14.7" / 373 mm
3rd: 7.35" / 187 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 14.70" / 373 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,004 shp / 35,811 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,490 tons
Complement:
1,178 - 1,532
Cost:
£2.761 million / $11.044 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,757 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 12,637 tons, 40.3 %
- Belts: 4,971 tons, 15.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 654 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 3,333 tons, 10.6 %
- Armour Deck: 3,364 tons, 10.7 %
- Conning Tower: 315 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,182 tons, 7.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,324 tons, 36.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,385 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40,783 lbs / 18,499 Kg = 33.2 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 7.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.538
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.67 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (40 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 17.28 ft / 5.27 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.8 %
Waterplane Area: 45,465 Square feet or 4,224 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 895 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ahoj!
Needlessly thick AD - 2 inches is enough.
TB too short - all under water?
You burn oil?
Borys
Projected enemy or rival of Orange? Brandenburg I would assume, right? Austrians maybe, if they come back or mess with New Switzerland directly? Those that do not yet exist in the Indian Ocean...and the Western Australian Muslims? Anyone else?
Second thought. If I have only six guns, I can dispense with the wing turrets, and increase speed with a knot. Extreme seakeeping is an extra.
RONS Second Thought, battlecruiser, laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
21,901 t light; 23,013 t standard; 24,638 t normal; 25,938 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
638.00 ft / 638.00 ft x 91.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
194.46 m / 194.46 m x 27.74 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,996 lbs / 4,081 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.7" / 347 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 6.30" / 160 mm 288.00 ft / 87.78 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 7.35" / 187 mm 13.7" / 347 mm
3rd: 6.30" / 160 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.30" / 58 mm, Conning tower: 13.65" / 347 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,062 shp / 35,854 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,925 tons
Complement:
983 - 1,278
Cost:
£2.017 million / $8.068 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,125 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 9,314 tons, 37.8 %
- Belts: 4,615 tons, 18.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 641 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 2,170 tons, 8.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,639 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 249 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,185 tons, 8.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,158 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,737 tons, 11.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 0.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
39,210 lbs / 17,785 Kg = 31.9 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 6.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.01 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.26 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (64 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.88 ft / 6.36 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.8 %
Waterplane Area: 38,511 Square feet or 3,578 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 792 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
*begins work on turretising 350mm guns*
Slight variation,
with increased turret side armor, decreased upper/end belts, and slightly cheaper.
Displacement:
21,437 t light; 22,538 t standard; 24,142 t normal; 25,424 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
632.00 ft / 632.00 ft x 89.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
192.63 m / 192.63 m x 27.13 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,996 lbs / 4,081 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.7" / 347 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 5.25" / 133 mm 282.00 ft / 85.95 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Upper: 5.25" / 133 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 10.5" / 267 mm 13.7" / 347 mm
3rd: 5.25" / 133 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.30" / 58 mm, Conning tower: 13.65" / 347 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,935 shp / 35,759 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,886 tons
Complement:
967 - 1,258
Cost:
£2.000 million / $8.000 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,125 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 9,058 tons, 37.5 %
- Belts: 4,320 tons, 17.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 622 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 2,250 tons, 9.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,621 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 246 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,179 tons, 9.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,945 tons, 37.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,705 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 130 tons, 0.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37,461 lbs / 16,992 Kg = 30.5 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.518
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (61 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.2 %
Waterplane Area: 38,101 Square feet or 3,540 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 161 lbs/sq ft or 786 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Hmmm, bigger and Faster than Dreadnought, but with fewer guns, again a design I like, though it will take a lot of your capacity to build.
Three Orange battleships are getting old, and would need a refit in a year or two. Now I have four options:
a/ retire them to reserve to act as coastal battleships. They are a bit large for that role, though.
b/ refit them - but 3BP and 3$ is a bit too much for the obsolete ships.
So what is left is scrapping, and I'd have six BB twin turret with OK armor (12" equivalent) and 12"/45 guns. So I could
c/ install the gun turrets as coastal artillery around my major harbors
d/ reuse them in ships.
Now these turrets are a bit weak for ships of the battleline, but perfect for battlecruisers. So, instead of putting 13.5" turrets on the battlecruiser, I could keep them for later use. The battlecruisers being built would be a shameless copy of the Brandyburger SKs, with a few exception:
- slightly better armor
- oil firing boilers - greater range
- torpedo bulkeads.
If I refurbish the old turrets (400t and $1.81 each), I still can spare 0.9BP and $4.1
on each ship, which is not negligible. Also, the turrets being ready would allow me to finish the ships a few months earlier. Two of these ships thus won't cost much more than one of the 6x13.5" ones, and it also cost 10BP less - I could build 2-3 frigates or several korvettes from the leftovers.
Budget BC, Orange laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
17,008 t light; 17,895 t standard; 19,915 t normal; 21,531 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 24.38 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,015 lbs / 3,182 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 340.00 ft / 103.63 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 6.30" / 160 mm 217.00 ft / 66.14 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 340.00 ft / 103.63 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 340.00 ft / 103.63 m 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 7.70" / 196 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
3rd: 5.25" / 133 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.30" / 58 mm, Conning tower: 12.60" / 320 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 45,384 shp / 33,856 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,636 tons
Complement:
837 - 1,089
Cost:
£1.621 million / $6.483 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 877 tons, 4.4 %
Armour: 7,446 tons, 37.4 %
- Belts: 3,615 tons, 18.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 585 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 1,686 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,360 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 199 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,063 tons, 10.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,512 tons, 32.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,907 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 110 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,857 lbs / 12,636 Kg = 32.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.579
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.96 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (60 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 18.20 ft / 5.55 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.4 %
Waterplane Area: 31,966 Square feet or 2,970 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 687 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The slightly cheaper 12" gunned Battlecruiser is probably the best option, unless you still have a desire for numbers (of older ships) over quality of vessels in service. Plus you mentioned extra smaller ships if you use this design over the 13.5" version.
As I still have another 5 ships, with a total of 24 guns, the coastal defense apparently must rely on the 8" guns salvaged from the ships.
hmmm, I've got a feeling building Ac's not BC's isn't a good idea.
Building ACs is a good idea, if AC means a fast cruiser with 8-9" guns to kill PCs and run away from BCs.
QuoteThe battlecruisers being built would be a shameless copy of the Brandyburger SKs
Call my laywer!! :P ;D
QuoteBuilding ACs is a good idea, if AC means a fast cruiser with 8-9" guns to kill PCs and run away from BCs
Ergo GK1909 (which I should try to squeeze another knot out of. Hmm by then I might be able to use AllOilFiring...and they're kind of a "Versuchs-Kreuzer" anyway...)
Stop copying my ideas (ie AC)! Now where did I leave my lawyers?
Some refinement on the ship - an extra 400t allows lengthening the belt, and placing a few torpedo tubes into the hull.
Budget Rent-a-BC, Engine 1909
Displacement:
17,400 t light; 18,296 t standard; 20,355 t normal; 22,002 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 82.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 24.99 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,015 lbs / 3,182 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 6.30" / 160 mm 207.00 ft / 63.09 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 7.70" / 196 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
3rd: 5.25" / 133 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.30" / 58 mm, Conning tower: 12.60" / 320 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 46,604 shp / 34,767 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,706 tons
Complement:
851 - 1,107
Cost:
£1.642 million / $6.569 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 877 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 7,606 tons, 37.4 %
- Belts: 3,671 tons, 18.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 602 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 1,709 tons, 8.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,421 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Tower: 202 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,118 tons, 10.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,688 tons, 32.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,955 tons, 14.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 110 tons, 0.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28,162 lbs / 12,774 Kg = 32.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.79 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (64 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 18.52 ft / 5.64 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.7 %
Waterplane Area: 33,403 Square feet or 3,103 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 690 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Redesign of the 6x14" BC. I have to use those turrets I paid for. Range decreased from ~7000 to 6000@12kts, added displacement, some finetuning for better armor, deeper draft and there it is.
Orange fast BB laid down 1909
Displacement:
21,639 t light; 22,758 t standard; 24,184 t normal; 25,325 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
625.00 ft / 625.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
190.50 m / 190.50 m x 26.82 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9,212 lbs / 4,179 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 366.00 ft / 111.56 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 6.30" / 160 mm 259.00 ft / 78.94 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 366.00 ft / 111.56 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 366.00 ft / 111.56 m 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.8" / 400 mm 10.5" / 267 mm 14.7" / 373 mm
3rd: 6.30" / 160 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.88" / 73 mm, Conning tower: 14.70" / 373 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,006 shp / 35,812 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,567 tons
Complement:
969 - 1,260
Cost:
£2.030 million / $8.120 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,152 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 9,947 tons, 41.1 %
- Belts: 4,868 tons, 20.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 691 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 2,148 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,976 tons, 8.2 %
- Conning Tower: 265 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 2,182 tons, 9.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,258 tons, 34.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,545 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,348 lbs / 13,766 Kg = 24.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (40 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 16.76 ft / 5.11 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 112.7 %
Waterplane Area: 37,084 Square feet or 3,445 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 765 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
She's starting to look over-armored for a battlecruiser. The block-coefficient is on the low side for a capital ship, even a fast one.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on April 17, 2007, 06:50:53 AM
She's starting to look over-armored for a battlecruiser. The block-coefficient is on the low side for a capital ship, even a fast one.
This is not a battlecruiser any more, range was reduced.
BC is yes, low, but it is like with the HMS Nelson (BC ~0.50). The hull was lengthened in order to keep the powerplant - and thus the machinery spaces need to be heavily armored - small.
Take two. Draught, Armor and range a bit reduced, BC increased to 0.53.
Orange Fast BB laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
21,426 t light; 22,537 t standard; 23,730 t normal; 24,685 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
616.00 ft / 616.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
187.76 m / 187.76 m x 26.82 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9,212 lbs / 4,179 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.2" / 361 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 6.30" / 160 mm 246.00 ft / 74.98 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 10.5" / 267 mm 14.2" / 361 mm
3rd: 6.30" / 160 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.88" / 73 mm, Conning tower: 14.70" / 373 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,003 shp / 35,811 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,148 tons
Complement:
955 - 1,242
Cost:
£2.023 million / $8.091 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,152 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 9,890 tons, 41.7 %
- Belts: 4,847 tons, 20.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 698 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 2,108 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,975 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 262 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 2,182 tons, 9.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,083 tons, 34.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,304 tons, 9.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 0.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,653 lbs / 13,450 Kg = 24.1 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.82 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (42 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 16.92 ft / 5.16 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.1 %
Waterplane Area: 37,073 Square feet or 3,444 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 155 lbs/sq ft or 756 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.21
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
QuoteTake two. Draught, Armor and range a bit reduced, BC increased to 0.53.
Orange Fast BB laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Still think she is over-armoured and undergunned for ship that size, but to each their own i guess.
Right, far too much armour for her speed, loose at least 1 inch from the main belt. 6inchers won't be QF for long as they'll soon run out of ready ammo, reducing the rpm right back down. She is too big for a BC at the moment, and if your planning on tackling the Kaiser Wilhelm II class you'll want more main guns as with ranges closing the German ships greater number of main guns will tell heavily. In fact she can't absorb as much damage as her German Opponent.
Orange has a few 13.5" turrets from France. My option is to build either two of the 6-gunned fast BBs - having the same speed as my BCs. Or build one ship with 5T3x13.5" with 23kts, and a displacement of 27000t, and then my two other 6x12"BC would have 1kts that they cannot utilize if in the battleline. Something will be built, for political reasons.
My ships are overarmored to historical designs, but we are speaking of 5-7ky fighting distance, not the 10ky+ the Dreadnought was designed for, and they are battleships not battlecruisers. Not everyone has fire control. For the high speed, blame the escalation on the DKB, which decided to take Orange as enemy #1 - and I do not really have other big concern. I can neglect building cruisers, as I do not rely on overseas commerce. The DKB cannot.
14" armor will stop 12" uncapped projectiles at 7ky. Not 13.5" ones.
Undergunned - a twin 13.5" is roughly the equivalent of a triple 12" in weight. And it would be 6 gun vs. 8 gun the most time, not too big advantage to the Germans, with my broadside being heavier, and able to punch through his armor, but not vice-versa.
Better flotation for the KWIIs: 1 knot speed makes 4000lbs difference there.
Quote from: P³D on April 18, 2007, 05:43:22 AM
Orange has a few 13.5" turrets from France. My option is to build either two of the 6-gunned fast BBs - having the same speed as my BCs. Or build one ship with 5T3x13.5" with 23kts, and a displacement of 27000t, and then my two other 6x12"BC would have 1kts that they cannot utilize if in the battleline. Something will be built, for political reasons.
My ships are overarmored to historical designs, but we are speaking of 5-7ky fighting distance, not the 10ky+ the Dreadnought was designed for, and they are battleships not battlecruisers. Not everyone has fire control. For the high speed, blame the escalation on the DKB, which decided to take Orange as enemy #1 - and I do not really have other big concern. I can neglect building cruisers, as I do not rely on overseas commerce. The DKB cannot.
14" armor will stop 12" uncapped projectiles at 7ky. Not 13.5" ones.
Undergunned - a twin 13.5" is roughly the equivalent of a triple 12" in weight. And it would be 6 gun vs. 8 gun the most time, not too big advantage to the Germans, with my broadside being heavier, and able to punch through his armor, but not vice-versa.
Better flotation for the KWIIs: 1 knot speed makes 4000lbs difference there.
As we are talking mostly un-capped AP shells, scatter is much more likley.
And i still say they are undergunned for a ship that size, i have a 21kts design with 10 35cm guns on 20k ton without giving up too much armour...
Given that the seas around the Cape can be rough, have you considered reducing the armor (the deck perhaps) a bit and raising the overall freeboard a bit? I know the seakeeping value is fine, but I wonder she'd be wet aft, and whether it would impair gunnery from the turrets there.
Quote from: P³D on April 18, 2007, 05:43:22 AMI can neglect building cruisers, as I do not rely on overseas commerce. The DKB cannot.
Unfortunatly true. :(
QuoteAs we are talking mostly un-capped AP shells, scatter is much more likley.
And i still say they are undergunned for a ship that size, i have a 21kts design with 10 35cm guns on 20k ton without giving up too much armour...
I do not have the luxury to build slow, 21kts ships unlike most players.
My primary requirement is 24kts speed so Swamphen's twins could not escape (0.2kts difference is negligible). With 1909 engines if I have 8x13.5" guns, it would be vulnerable to 12" or even 10-11" guns, and I won't get much more firepower so that's not an option.
QuoteGiven that the seas around the Cape can be rough, have you considered reducing the armor (the deck perhaps) a bit and raising the overall freeboard a bit? I know the seakeeping value is fine, but I wonder she'd be wet aft, and whether it would impair gunnery from the turrets there.
True, I might go back to the first BC design which did have 1.50 seakeeping and higher freeboards aft. But the 13"/4m stern freeboard is pretty much what the first German BCs had, and they were supposedly designed for the North Sea.
Heeding Rocky's suggestion, I decreased deck armor thickness, and belt depth, and incresed freeboard by 1'. Range was increased.
Orange BC laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
21,000 t light; 22,111 t standard; 23,734 t normal; 25,033 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
616.00 ft / 616.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
187.76 m / 187.76 m x 26.82 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9,212 lbs / 4,179 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.2" / 361 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 6.30" / 160 mm 246.00 ft / 74.98 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 10.5" / 267 mm 14.2" / 361 mm
3rd: 6.30" / 160 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.30" / 58 mm, Conning tower: 14.70" / 373 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,008 shp / 35,814 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,922 tons
Complement:
955 - 1,242
Cost:
£2.008 million / $8.031 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,152 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 9,265 tons, 39.0 %
- Belts: 4,559 tons, 19.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 698 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 2,169 tons, 9.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,578 tons, 6.6 %
- Conning Tower: 262 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 2,182 tons, 9.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,253 tons, 34.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,734 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 148 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,549 lbs / 13,857 Kg = 24.8 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.82 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (42 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 17.84 ft / 5.44 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.6 %
Waterplane Area: 37,076 Square feet or 3,444 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 765 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.29
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I could install 8x12" on basically the same hull without much change in SS. Not a good deal IMO.
Quote from: P³D on April 19, 2007, 02:13:06 AM
I could install 8x12" on basically the same hull without much change in SS. Not a good deal IMO.
Without much loss effective in protection you could get something like this:
She is 0,4 kts slower, but that is irrelevant in almost any situation, and the huge increase in firepower more then compensates.
BB21-4, No Country Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
21 100 t light; 22 506 t standard; 24 834 t normal; 26 696 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
607,82 ft / 593,83 ft x 89,90 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
185,26 m / 181,00 m x 27,40 m x 8,50 m
Armament:
8 - 13,78" / 350 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1 344,82lbs / 610,00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
14 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12 306 lbs / 5 582 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 377,30 ft / 115,00 m 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
Ends: 2,95" / 75 mm 216,54 ft / 66,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Upper: 5,91" / 150 mm 377,30 ft / 115,00 m 7,87 ft / 2,40 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,34" / 34 mm 377,30 ft / 115,00 m 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,2" / 310 mm 5,12" / 130 mm 11,7" / 298 mm
2nd: 5,51" / 140 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2,17" / 55 mm, Conning tower: 11,02" / 280 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48 000 shp / 35 808 Kw = 23,58 kts
Range 9 975nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4 191 tons
Complement:
988 - 1 285
Cost:
£2,312 million / $9,247 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 509 tons, 6,1 %
Armour: 8 338 tons, 33,6 %
- Belts: 3 959 tons, 15,9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 490 tons, 2,0 %
- Armament: 2 146 tons, 8,6 %
- Armour Deck: 1 541 tons, 6,2 %
- Conning Tower: 202 tons, 0,8 %
Machinery: 2 182 tons, 8,8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 951 tons, 36,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 734 tons, 15,0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 0,5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28 918 lbs / 13 117 Kg = 22,1 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 4,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
Metacentric height 5,3 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 16,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,584
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,37 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 21,00 ft / 6,40 m
- Mid (37 %): 21,00 ft / 6,40 m (13,12 ft / 4,00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 16,18 ft / 4,93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113,9 %
Waterplane Area: 38 458 Square feet or 3 573 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 837 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,26
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
EDIT: I Really hate that springsharp does not save the ship exactly...
I design my ships to full knots, as the 0.4kts difference does not matter. Somehow we muct make a distinction that what speed difference matters.
And I cannot have superfiring turrets. Moreover, being good seaboat is a minimal requirement for my ships.
Quote from: P³D on April 19, 2007, 10:47:49 AM
I design my ships to full knots, as the 0.4kts difference does not matter. Somehow we muct make a distinction that what speed difference matters.
And I cannot have superfiring turrets. Moreover, being good seaboat is a minimal requirement for my ships.
Welll, neither can i, so i will also build ships with six main gun. ;)
But mine will be 5k tons smaller.
And i usually set speed to a certain HP, in this case to the maximum 48000 shp.
Also, i prefer to crank up the stability of my ship, at the cost of steadiness and seakeeping, it is not like the ship is a bad seaboat in any way.
Different design philosophies i guess. Still i think it is a nice design.
As for when difference in speed matters, anything less then 3-4 knots will not be tactically significant unless you simply want to run away, and then such things as capacity to run at full speed for hours matter more then top speed.
Orange has the ability to produce an all-oil-firing design already? Where's the oil coming from?
A line drawing would be good - this looks rather crowded.
There are couple of natural oil puddles near Luanda - 60 wooden caskets a year. They buy the rest from the the UNA or Russia etc.
Sadly, the Austrian surplus is all snapped up by the DKB.
:D
Borys
Quote from: Borys on April 20, 2007, 09:20:16 AM
There are couple of natural oil puddles near Luanda - 60 wooden caskets a year. They buy the rest from the the UNA or Russia etc.
Sadly, the Austrian surplus is all snapped up by the DKB.
:D
Borys
Or Me :)
Pretty much all my colonies got oil in them even if the oil in the Caribbean is not yet found, nor is most of the oil around the mouth of the kongo river (Cabinda).
As three of my bases in the NOI is either sitting next to large refineries, or next to oil well, there is large pressure to switch to oil firing in the Dutch navy, for some reason the captains are nervous about shipping coal to the NOI when there is limitless amounts of oil all around them.
Anybody can import oil, from the few places where it is currently known and extracted. However, now Orange will have a trade protection function to undertake, and DKB will have something for those raiders to do.
As an aside, I'd expect that oil-firing ships would first be built by those nations actually owning oil, but that's a small matter.
I think that few puddles is Angola could at least provide as much oil as the Galizian fields.
Which is IMO not delivered to the DKB, which just on the other side of the globe.
Nevertheless, I have to import oil, while the domestic supply is enough for the navy, not for the increasing domestic consumption. I thnik Orange is buying from Persia, that's the closest one.
The Cabinda oil is I think offshore, more than the Angolan one.
Quote from: P³D on April 20, 2007, 10:49:06 AM
I think that few puddles is Angola could at least provide as much oil as the Galizian fields.
Which is IMO not delivered to the DKB, which just on the other side of the globe.
Nevertheless, I have to import oil, while the domestic supply is enough for the navy, not for the increasing domestic consumption. I thnik Orange is buying from Persia, that's the closest one.
The Cabinda oil is I think offshore, more than the Angolan one.
Yes, most of the Cabinda oil is offshore, but less so then the rest of angola, were it it pretty much all off shore.
But nither of us can go after that oil for quite some time...
Quote from: P³D on April 20, 2007, 10:49:06 AM
I think that few puddles is Angola could at least provide as much oil as the Galizian fields.
Which is IMO not delivered to the DKB, which just on the other side of the globe.
Brandenburg reached an agreement with the Habsburgs back in...1903 was it Borys?...to purchase the surplus from the Austrian oil fields. It was in part an Oil-for-Food deal, over the Hard Winter, as I recall.
I'd image Rohan has oil someplace (probably around the Sea of Rhun and maybe Mordar as those were suppose to have been under an inland sea during the First Age), plus the oil in Alberta. There certainly will be oil off the coast with all that First Age landmass now under the waves for 14,668 years. Even if it hasn't been probed in full yet, Rohan as access to the Confederate States of America, which has probably the largest supply of oil produced in the world at present.
So Orange doesn't want to try for an Invincible type fast battleship with 13.4" wing turrets? It might not be all that impossible to do, just that by the time the guns were their, centerline turrets were a better savings of space and had better effective value on the broadside.
Yes, it was in 1903. It gave me the pretext to bring some measure of Gov't control over the oilfields (under Austrian law you need Gov't permisions and stuf for "mineables", and oil wasn't a "mineable" commodity).
So I suppose my production will not equal the OTL 1908 peak (2M tons, ie. 14 M barrels), but I also hope that it will not drop off so much. Let us say I'm producing 1,5M tons, or c. 10 M barrels.
Borys
Orange 1907 Fast BB (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
22,505 t light; 23,830 t standard; 25,753 t normal; 27,291 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.35 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1907 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,786 lbs / 5,346 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.7" / 347 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 6.30" / 160 mm 207.00 ft / 63.09 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 9.45" / 240 mm 13.7" / 347 mm
3rd: 6.30" / 160 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.88" / 73 mm, Conning tower: 14.70" / 373 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,823 shp / 35,676 Kw = 23.20 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,461 tons
Complement:
1,016 - 1,321
Cost:
£2.330 million / $9.318 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,473 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 9,868 tons, 38.3 %
- Belts: 4,173 tons, 16.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 583 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 2,817 tons, 10.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,019 tons, 7.8 %
- Conning Tower: 276 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 2,174 tons, 8.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,845 tons, 34.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,248 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 145 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,439 lbs / 14,260 Kg = 25.6 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.99 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
- Mid (53 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 19.42 ft / 5.92 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.6 %
Waterplane Area: 37,886 Square feet or 3,520 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 819 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.61
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Which one is (are) the design(s) actually being built?
Well, the latest one in already on the slipways...
I tried to simulate the 4T2x13.5" Orange BB with superfiring twins, and I had to increase length and displacement by 1500-2000t to have at least 1.05 stability...
Orange Frigate study, to operate independently, or with the planned 29kts screening force. A torpedo bulkhead would cost 2000t displacement and would need fine tuning for the engine power and a slight speed decrease.
Orange Frigate, laid down 1912
Displacement:
12,999 t light; 13,598 t standard; 14,792 t normal; 15,748 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 22.86 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
8 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns (4x2 guns), 364.50lbs / 165.33kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,482 lbs / 1,579 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 334.00 ft / 101.80 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 223.00 ft / 67.97 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 3.00" / 76 mm 334.00 ft / 101.80 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.20" / 56 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 76,984 shp / 57,430 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,150 tons
Complement:
669 - 871
Cost:
£1.250 million / $5.001 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 435 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 3,988 tons, 27.0 %
- Belts: 1,865 tons, 12.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 917 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,128 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Tower: 78 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,070 tons, 20.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,306 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,793 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,423 lbs / 7,903 Kg = 47.8 x 9.0 " / 229 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.496
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (61 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 19.28 ft / 5.88 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.4 %
Waterplane Area: 27,726 Square feet or 2,576 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 620 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.54
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Amazing what one more level of engine tech will allow one to do. :)
An interesting sign of things to come... and a frightening one.
"29 knot screening force"
The Derfflingers are back on...
This looks eeirly similar to my own Phoenix design:
NSS Phoenix, New Switzerland Heavy Cruiser laid down 1909 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
13,702 t light; 14,416 t standard; 17,405 t normal; 19,796 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
597.23 ft / 590.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 29.50 ft (normal load)
182.04 m / 179.83 m x 21.34 m x 8.99 m
Armament:
8 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns (4x2 guns), 420.00lbs / 190.51kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,496 lbs / 2,039 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
8 - 19.7" / 500.38 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 70,698 shp / 52,741 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,379 tons
Complement:
756 - 984
Cost:
£1.300 million / $5.199 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 506 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 4,263 tons, 24.5 %
- Belts: 1,690 tons, 9.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 956 tons, 5.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,588 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 29 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,819 tons, 16.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,964 tons, 34.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,703 tons, 21.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,671 lbs / 10,737 Kg = 64.9 x 9.0 " / 229 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 22.29 ft / 6.79 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.0 %
Waterplane Area: 28,616 Square feet or 2,658 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 620 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.87
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Not minding the transom stern and the freak 30' draught, the two ships are indeed similar.
Quote from: Desertfox on September 08, 2007, 08:55:06 PM
This looks eeirly similar to my own Phoenix design:
NSS Phoenix, New Switzerland Heavy Cruiser laid down 1909 (Engine 1912)
Too narrow belt for the exessive range, it is more then a meter between normal and deep draft, and flooding at all while close to full load will submerge her belt and make her a huge protected cruiser. She also lose exessive ammounts of speed due to it, only making a bit more then 28kts at full load.
A 10m draft will also start to limit the ports she can call on.
Edited after I started to draw the ship and realized that the armor and internal layout won't be good.
Orange BB laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
22,250 t light; 23,552 t standard; 25,461 t normal; 26,988 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.04 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,570 lbs / 5,248 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 207.00 ft / 63.09 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,403 shp / 35,363 Kw = 23.20 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,436 tons
Complement:
1,007 - 1,310
Cost:
£2.295 million / $9.181 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,446 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 9,605 tons, 37.7 %
- Belts: 4,529 tons, 17.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 599 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 2,483 tons, 9.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,733 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 261 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,155 tons, 8.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,844 tons, 34.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,211 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,788 lbs / 14,873 Kg = 26.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
- Mid (60 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.50 ft / 4.11 m
- Stern: 13.50 ft / 4.11 m
- Average freeboard: 20.31 ft / 6.19 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.2 %
Waterplane Area: 37,467 Square feet or 3,481 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 167 lbs/sq ft or 818 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.72
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Looks good, except the main turret layout seems odd:
Quoteon side, evenly spread
That turret layout is supposed to represent wing turrets amidships.
Here's the pic.
(http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/288/orangebbki8.png)
That works for the wing turrets but it should place the forward turrets on the wings as well, in this case staggered. Perhaps the two centerline turrets and the two mains as main and secondary positions?
There is three bb design here with the similar armament, and all of them uses the 'on sides, evenly spread' arrangements.
You made it do it!
Borys
LOL i figured he wanted it like that.
Looked if it worth refitting my battleship with new engines.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=186.msg1709#msg1709
The surprise is that... it is. The old ones are capable of 17kts. Keeping machine weight constant, I get 3kts extra speed (so they could operate with the 20kts turbine BBs) for the cost of 1.6BP and $3.2. Rest of the extra goes into increased cruising speed (5000@12kts vs 10kts before) and increasing the bow freeboard. The only drawback is the lack of torpedo defence, but the higher speed somewhat compensates for that.
Suidafrika, Battleship laid down 1897 (engine 1909)
Displacement:
11,229 t light; 11,838 t standard; 12,914 t normal; 13,775 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
390.50 ft / 390.50 ft x 69.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
119.02 m / 119.02 m x 21.03 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1897 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1897 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,942 lbs / 2,695 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 17.7" / 450.0001 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.1" / 307 mm 242.00 ft / 73.76 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 6.60" / 168 mm 66.00 ft / 20.12 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
82.50 ft / 25.15 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 7.70" / 196 mm 242.00 ft / 73.76 m 7.50 ft / 2.29 m
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 7.70" / 196 mm 8.80" / 224 mm
2nd: 8.80" / 224 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.40" / 112 mm
3rd: 6.60" / 168 mm - 6.60" / 168 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.20" / 335 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,399 ihp / 15,218 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,937 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
605 - 787
Cost:
£1.237 million / $4.947 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 743 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 4,789 tons, 37.1 %
- Belts: 2,115 tons, 16.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,349 tons, 10.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,168 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 157 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,569 tons, 12.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,079 tons, 31.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,685 tons, 13.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,086 lbs / 5,482 Kg = 14.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.671
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.66 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.76 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (13.20 ft / 4.02 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 13.20 ft / 4.02 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.20 ft / 4.02 m
- Stern: 13.20 ft / 4.02 m
- Average freeboard: 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 87.4 %
Waterplane Area: 21,040 Square feet or 1,955 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 666 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Yet another option is to put a 3m bulge on the sides, and extend the belt armor down a bit as the ship will sit lower in the water.
well i got an extra knot 2 more guns heavier armor all in the same length on my old 1896 BBs im seriously contemplating the RC.
More 12" guns?
ya 2 more added an extra barb take a look at her. Mine would be a total reconstruct, added some buldges to her, and a little more total weight like 1200 tons.
Hm, which design of mine you are referring to?
LOL no no no my 1896 RC lol with the new 10 year rule they are overdue, although i have a question for you P3D 12" tripple on a 66' wide hull sound out of line? cause SS will let me do it (actualy its more stable then 3 twins) if you want ill play with yours though im geting preaty good at this reconstruct thing.
Revisited refit, with installing some oil burners for extra range. So cost would be 1.6BP and $4.5.
However, I could still scrap them and use turrets as coastal artillery, with some armor I could recover 1.85BP and $3.7 worth for shore installations, and 1.43BP and $1.43 from scrapping. I would still have 7 battleships besides them. A new battleship would cost as much as the refit cost and savings for the coastal artillery. And coastal defense, esp. around Kaapstad would also free up battleships to operate elsewhere.
Suidafrika, rebuilt Battleship laid down 1897 (engine 1909)
Displacement:
11,153 t light; 11,763 t standard; 12,954 t normal; 13,907 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
390.50 ft / 390.50 ft x 69.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
119.02 m / 119.02 m x 21.03 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1897 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1897 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,942 lbs / 2,695 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 17.7" / 450.0001 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.1" / 307 mm 242.00 ft / 73.76 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 6.60" / 168 mm 66.00 ft / 20.12 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
82.50 ft / 25.15 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 7.70" / 196 mm 242.00 ft / 73.76 m 7.50 ft / 2.29 m
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 7.70" / 196 mm 8.80" / 224 mm
2nd: 8.80" / 224 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.40" / 112 mm
3rd: 6.60" / 168 mm - 6.60" / 168 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.20" / 335 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,455 ihp / 15,259 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,144 tons (80% coal)
Complement:
606 - 789
Cost:
£1.230 million / $4.921 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 743 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 4,791 tons, 37.0 %
- Belts: 2,116 tons, 16.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,349 tons, 10.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,170 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 157 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,543 tons, 11.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,026 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,801 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,266 lbs / 5,564 Kg = 14.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.673
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.66 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.76 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (13.20 ft / 4.02 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 13.20 ft / 4.02 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.20 ft / 4.02 m
- Stern: 13.20 ft / 4.02 m
- Average freeboard: 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 87.5 %
Waterplane Area: 21,080 Square feet or 1,958 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 656 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.02
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
The following battleship study was done on the behalf of an unidentified foreign navy. Orange 13.5/40 guns are used. Turret arrangement is AQXY with X superfiring, utilizing input from the Baltic Confederation. Draught kept relatively shallow to ease operations from small harbors.
Unfortunately the Ministry lived with the veto and the deal did not fall through.
Orange export battleship laid down 1909
Displacement:
18,748 t light; 19,815 t standard; 21,410 t normal; 22,686 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
534.00 ft / 534.00 ft x 89.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
162.76 m / 162.76 m x 27.13 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,246 lbs / 5,101 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 204.00 ft / 62.18 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 150.00 ft / 45.72 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 29,236 shp / 21,810 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 5,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,871 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
884 - 1,150
Cost:
£2.040 million / $8.158 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,406 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 7,768 tons, 36.3 %
- Belts: 3,068 tons, 14.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 495 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 2,406 tons, 11.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,584 tons, 7.4 %
- Conning Tower: 216 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,447 tons, 6.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,977 tons, 37.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,662 tons, 12.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,623 lbs / 12,076 Kg = 21.6 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.584
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 17.32 ft / 5.28 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.2 %
Waterplane Area: 34,242 Square feet or 3,181 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 831 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ahoj!
Close to perfection.
I'd sacrifice some "gun platform" for Stability. I hate to have it lower than 1,10.
Borys
The costumer preferred a better gun platform.
Orange currently faces a dilemma. Its battleline is rather heterogeneous. Three battleships approaching 15 year, with 4x12"+8x8", 17kts. Two more, approaching 10 years, 6x12"+12"x6", also 17kts. Two turbine-driven 20kts 6x12" ship. Two 23kts fast BB with 6x13.5".
a/ Now I can bring some of the VTE-powered old ships to 20kts, and install FCS on them. The only problem is that this would cost $4-5 each ship, and their torpedo protection is nonexistent. Rest of the turrets could find their place in shore batteries.
b/ using the armor and guns of the old ships in a new one. I could build a 8x12" BB of 23kts on 18500t, a 20kts one on 17000 or so, a 27kts BC on 22000t (1912 engine year). Also upgrade the existing 20kts BB to get a uniform 23kts battleline if the 23kts version is decided upon. I would spare about 7BP and $8 on reusing old armor (same armor thicknesses all over), even if I have to make like 30% of the armor brand new. These ships would be ready in 1912.
c/ old ships go to reserve/scrapyard after the next pair of 23kts ship is ready in 1913.
Any thoughts?
Burn them. Burn them with fire. It is the only way to be sure.
Rebuild the newer VTE ships to 20 knots to give your 6 gunned 12" guns ships the same speed and some resemblance to a battle line. Land the three older ships as coastal defenses/reserve/coastal defense battleship status until the new ships are finished. If you don't use their guns for coast defenses, instead of one 8x12" guns warship, make two more 6x12" gun warships (at 20 knots) to give you a six ship battle line with the 23 knot faster ships as heavy scouts/offensive strike division to your defensive force/battle line ships that go 20 knots.
I'm not sure you could re-use armor effectively - isn't it shaped towards a particular hull?
My own inclination is to tell you to upgrade the turbined-driven ships to 23 knots for uniform speed, then scrap the rest. Don't re-use the guns on new ships, because they'll be older, inferior guns; even if armor were capable of recycling, I'd pass on that too, as it's probably an older, inferior armor.
Orange has a compact position and no obvious antagonists, so you ought to be able to downsize to four BB at least on a temporary basis...
My old ships have almost up-to-date 12"/L45 guns. Armor is KC.
Three battleships approaching 15 year, with 4x12"+8x8", 17kts.
- scrap
Two more, approaching 10 years, 6x12"+12"x6", also 17kts.
- overhaul, keep for Home Defense
Two turbine-driven 20kts 6x12" ship.
Two 23kts fast BB with 6x13.5".
Keep on building 23 knot ships - in 5-8 years time the 20 knotters will take the place of the 17 knotter.
Borys
If I want to install FC on the ship, I need to change engines to free up the 300t misc. weight necessary. For that I have to change the engines. Total cost would be around $5-6 each.
Another solution - keep 20knots as the battleline, with the 23 knotters a "fast division".
The 6x12" ship will be second line soon - look at the hordes of ships with 8, 10, even 14 guns of that calibre - built or finishing. Not to mention 13,5-14 inch ships on the way. Plus the 15 inchers of Muscovy.
Borys
How much of the old armor can I reuse, and how much should I have to remanufacture if I want to build those Vanguards? I've got the idea to build a pair of second-line, "light" battleships from the guns, turrets and armor using the newest of the VTE ships (and two turrets from the older ones). That would give me a division of four 23kts 12" armed fast ship, capable to deal with other 12"-gunned ships, and most armored cruisers. About a year or two before any newer ship would be ready That two ship would cost as much as one 13.5" gunned one, if I could reuse the armor.
And I lack any adequately armed armored cruiser.
I'd guess that turrets, guns and barbettes can be reused 100%. And I suppose part of the Main Belt and Upper Belt. No idea about deck armour. But I have not come across re-use of armour plating. Anybody know anything?
Borys
There was no reuse of armor plating due to the huge improvement of armor quality between the wars, and also the different armor thicknesses required.
Here I want to use the same armor type.
NB, Orange was ahistorically advanced armor and gun-wise as I created it back in N2 - that's why I could use turrets from my starting N2-verse fleet without any significant change in performance.
I can build the following second-class battleship from recycled components. It's worth noting that the second superfiring turret (or rather, the stability and seakeeping) cost about 1000t. Barbette armor is 12" above the weatherdeck, 9" below (effective 12").
Used components are:
Primary and secondary armament (1033t, $2.066)
Barbette and Turret Armor (1755t)
Main, Upper and End belt, 33% made new (2602 of 3905t)
CT (212t)
One-third of deck armor (520t of 1559t)
Total: 6.1BP and $7.1
So the ship would cost 12.6BP and $10.3.
I could build a 26kts Battlecruiser fast battleship to counter similar vessels, but it would be 3600t heavier and $3 more expensive. Orange going speed freak.
Cape 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1911 (engine 1912)
Displacement:
18,496 t light; 19,385 t standard; 20,858 t normal; 22,036 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
559.27 ft / 557.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
170.47 m / 169.77 m x 25.91 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,262 lbs / 3,748 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 227.00 ft / 69.19 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 39,746 shp / 29,651 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,651 tons
Complement:
867 - 1,128
Cost:
£1.737 million / $6.947 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,033 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 8,183 tons, 39.2 %
- Belts: 3,901 tons, 18.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 495 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 2,016 tons, 9.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,559 tons, 7.5 %
- Conning Tower: 212 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,585 tons, 7.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,396 tons, 35.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,362 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,670 lbs / 13,458 Kg = 34.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.571
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.55 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.9 %
Waterplane Area: 33,702 Square feet or 3,131 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 763 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Rebuilding the 1905 battleships to get them up to 23kts and equip them with FCS. Cost is 3BP and $6.
Whitwatersrand, Orange Battleship laid down 1905 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
13,778 t light; 14,468 t standard; 15,696 t normal; 16,678 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
490.00 ft / 490.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
149.35 m / 149.35 m x 21.34 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,534 lbs / 2,964 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 12.20 ft / 3.72 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 140.00 ft / 42.67 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
19.00 ft / 5.79 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 35,078 shp / 26,169 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,211 tons
Complement:
700 - 911
Cost:
£1.364 million / $5.456 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 817 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 6,426 tons, 40.9 %
- Belts: 3,111 tons, 19.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 459 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 1,254 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,413 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 189 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,399 tons, 8.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,836 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,918 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,891 lbs / 8,569 Kg = 21.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.616
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.59 ft / 7.19 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 15.37 ft / 4.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.0 %
Waterplane Area: 25,463 Square feet or 2,366 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 635 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Quote from: P3D on January 02, 2008, 02:59:23 PM
I can build the following second-class battleship from recycled components. It's worth noting that the second superfiring turret (or rather, the stability and seakeeping) cost about 1000t. Barbette armor is 12" above the weatherdeck, 9" below (effective 12").
And she shall be called
ROS Leftovers. ;)
For the money and the capability, you can't beat her, that's for sure.
Definitely worth building.
Just don't forget that you'll need a type 3 slip.
QuoteCape 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1911 (engine 1912)
Displacement:
18,496 t light; 19,385 t standard; 20,858 t normal; 22,036 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
559.27 ft / 557.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
The "Leftover Battlecruiser" option, on 22000t.
With 1000t less I could get 26kts and good seakeeping (actually this ship has good seakeeping at 26kts), but 27kts could operate better with my 'frigates' (=cruisers). Still, 4000t more than the fast battleship.
Armor covers the whole citadel up to the weather deck, the armor weight for the casemated guns was subtracted. 1.5' of the belt constitutes as 2' underwater belt, thinning down from 12" to 6" (7' belt depth at normal displacement).
Savings reusing old armor should be 6BP and $7 (and I'd decrease savings estimate for the battleship case by 0.5BP and $).is determined by reusing the components. With 9-10" armor it would be possible on 20,000t.
Would it be a waste of steel to build them instead of the slower ships, or I should be fair with all the slower, weaker armed/armored battlecruisers around? Although I guess similar ships will be inevitably laid down in the following years.
Cape 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1911 (engine 1912)
Displacement:
22,200 t light; 23,180 t standard; 25,031 t normal; 26,511 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
618.45 ft / 616.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
188.50 m / 187.76 m x 26.82 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,370 lbs / 3,797 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 13.50 ft / 4.11 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 216.00 ft / 65.84 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,544 shp / 59,340 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,331 tons
Complement:
994 - 1,293
Cost:
£2.100 million / $8.400 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,046 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 9,071 tons, 36.2 %
- Belts: 4,318 tons, 17.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 622 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 2,130 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,762 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Tower: 240 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,172 tons, 12.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,611 tons, 34.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,831 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,345 lbs / 14,671 Kg = 37.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.557
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.82 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (23.00 ft / 7.01 m aft of break)
- Mid (62 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.2 %
Waterplane Area: 38,091 Square feet or 3,539 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 760 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
A drawing of the 27kts battleship.
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3324/bcqt9.png)
looks good question though dont you think she is a tad heavy? That could just be my Bias for light ships talking, but with both Korpen and I building similar ships on less tonage might want to try and lighten her up a bit. ^.^
By 'similar' you mean all those battlecruisers that have inferior speed, range, protection and even firepower? This ship is ~2000t lighter than the Derfflingers, so I would not say too heavy - and I am reusing old battleship components to keep cost down. I would not build these ships otherwise.
25kts is not enough to scout for the 23kts battleline. And the new Orange cruisers has 27kts speed. I could go for 26kts, but that would slow down cruisers operating with this ship. Speed is very expensive, but Orange can afford it.
Quote from: P3D on January 03, 2008, 09:17:12 PM
By 'similar' you mean all those battlecruisers that have inferior speed, range, protection and even firepower? This ship is ~2000t lighter than the Derfflingers, so I would not say too heavy - and I am reusing old battleship components to keep cost down. I would not build these ships otherwise.
Remember, the guns are older, and the armor inferior. You pointed that out yourself. You aren't going to get quite the range or accuracy out of the old gun tubes that the new ships are getting... at least, not till you pay for their replacement under the "1897 or older equipment" rule that you made. Thus, until these ships go through a 10% refit, the guns will be operating at lowered efficiency.
Quote from: P3D on January 03, 2008, 09:17:12 PM
25kts is not enough to scout for the 23kts battleline. And the new Orange cruisers has 27kts speed. I could go for 26kts, but that would slow down cruisers operating with this ship. Speed is very expensive, but Orange can afford it.
Given that it will take 2 years or so for this ship to be laid down, given the engine date, start time for the tech and average success times for researched techs, 27 knots will be about average for battle cruisers being built with NEW components.
I had no idea that you intended to wait that long to lay down the ship
In this case, I'd say that it'll be hopelessly outdated by the time it leaves the ways, and you'll have a 22,000 ton liability sailing around competing with newer, better ships.
Quote from: P3D on January 03, 2008, 03:14:54 AM
Waterline length is used in determining whether a ship fits into a drydock.
Only if you leave off part of the bow.
I think that the rules say that it's overall length.
Quote11 - Drydocks
Overal ship lenght is taken is considered.
Thus, the ship is too long.
Er...
The armor is KC, if that's not up-to-date then I want to buy better armor from that foundry.
The guns are 12"/45, and while not as good as a 12"/50, still offers adequate performance. And I could not make better ones, so...
And before I install the equipment I also refurbish the turrets, ammo hoists, increase max gun elevation, and reline the guns, not in their current worn-out state. Best I specify spending $0.5 for it per ship to avoid misunderstandings.
Quote from: P3D on January 03, 2008, 09:42:48 PM
The armor is KC, if that's not up-to-date then I want to buy better armor from that foundry.
Incorrect. It is NOT. Here is the armor chart you posted during the last change.
QuoteArmor technology
1880 Cast Iron -20%
1890 Compound -10%
1900 Krupp Cemented 0
1915 All Imp. KC types +10%
You said the armor was recycled form the older ships, none of which were laid down before 1900. Thus, the ships being laid down before 1900, the armor is Compound, not KC, and is inferior to the new-build ships that it will be facing.
Quote from: P3D on January 03, 2008, 09:42:48 PM
The guns are 12"/45, and while not as good as a 12"/50, still offers adequate performance. And I could not make better ones, so...
They are pre-refit tubes, though, and unless the money is spent, they are in 'disrepair.'
When the money is paid according to the new ship they are mounted on, then they will be good to go again, and as good as 75% of the 12" guns out there.
Quote from: P3D on January 03, 2008, 09:42:48 PMAnd before I install the equipment I also refurbish the turrets, ammo hoists, increase max gun elevation, and reline the guns, not in their current worn-out state. Best I specify spending $0.5 for it per ship to avoid misunderstandings.
It would, as this was not mentioned in the ship's description, nor was the extra cost factored into the cost of the ships, nor was the additional yard time (6 months) factored into the construction time.
And honestly, if you're waiting till 1912 engine tech is ready (at least the 1st half of 1912, realistically) for laydown, these ships will honestly be in pretty bad shape compared to other ships being laid down at the same time.
For a stop-gap to be in the water by the end of 1912, it was a good design.
For a main-line ship being built from warmed-over parts, it's decidedly inferior.
Quote from: Carthaginian on January 03, 2008, 09:52:34 PM
Incorrect. It is NOT. Here is the armor chart you posted during the last change.
Armor technology
1880 Cast Iron -20%
1890 Compound -10%
1900 Krupp Cemented 0
1915 All Imp. KC types +10%
You said the armor was recycled form the older ships, none of which were laid down before 1900. Thus, the ships being laid down before 1900, the armor is Compound, not KC, and is inferior to the new-build ships that it will be facing.
Incorrect. ;)
Remember there was an intermediate armor (Harvey Nickel) between the 1890 and 1900 ones. That tech was merged into the '1900 KC' tech, first because of people in general ignored its marginal (5%) effect, second because I did not want Italy and Spain (IIRC the two nations without KC armor tech in 1907-08) being handicapped with inferior armor in their new builds so I decided to 'upgrade' the armor of most ships laid down after 1895 (or later). In effect, every ship now on water have up-to-date armor technology save some really old ones in their twenties.
Quote
And honestly, if you're waiting till 1912 engine tech is ready (at least the 1st half of 1912, realistically) for laydown, these ships will honestly be in pretty bad shape compared to other ships being laid down at the same time.
I am still undecided what to do, that's the reason why I am piling designs upon designs here. Most probably 2 turrets will go into coastal defense after refurbishment, and one ship will be laid down next quarter:
The 23kts 8x12" ship with 1909 engines. I have to build the 6" guns and casemates (0.4BP, $0.7 higher price). $0.5 for refurbishing turrets, I get 5.2BP and $5.4 savings, Price is therefore 13.6BP and $12.4 with the refurbishment.
Cape 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
18,800 t light; 19,700 t standard; 21,415 t normal; 22,787 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 27.50 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 25.91 m x 8.38 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,262 lbs / 3,748 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 227.00 ft / 69.19 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 40,436 shp / 30,165 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,087 tons
Complement:
884 - 1,150
Cost:
£1.783 million / $7.131 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,033 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 8,195 tons, 38.3 %
- Belts: 3,903 tons, 18.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 495 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 2,016 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,565 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 216 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,838 tons, 8.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,434 tons, 34.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,615 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,252 lbs / 13,269 Kg = 33.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.576
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.55 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.84 ft / 5.44 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.0 %
Waterplane Area: 33,847 Square feet or 3,145 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 760 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.43
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
well TY for updating the armor (mumbles about realy needing to clean up his tech section) FYI I discoverd somthing rather odd erlier, I may end up building a BC that is as expensive as my BBs But DAMN what a BC... look in my post at her (im realy dreding drawing it btw)
About reusing the belt armour, when looking at the BBS that you intend to use for components, i can find no ships that have the same thickness and dimensions on its main belt as the suggested designs. In fact the only BBs with the same armour thickness are the two most modern. While I could buy some changes to the lengths and width of the re-used belt armour by combining components from several ships (possibly creating points of weakness in the armour), any change in thickness would require re-forging the plate (=scrapping)
Eh, indeed.
The only reason those BBs had non-even armor is that I resimmed them from N2-verse as an example how to conform with the new rules - the rules that everyone conveniently ignored about effective armor thicknesses and such.
Quote from: P3D on January 04, 2008, 01:05:10 AM
Eh, indeed.
The only reason those BBs had non-even armor is that I resimmed them from N2-verse as an example how to conform with the new rules - the rules that everyone conveniently ignored about effective armor thicknesses and such.
... sounds about normal. I dont think im ignoring any rules (conveinently flexing a few maybee ^.^)
Quote from: P3D on January 04, 2008, 01:05:10 AM
Eh, indeed.
The only reason those BBs had non-even armor is that I resimmed them from N2-verse as an example how to conform with the new rules - the rules that everyone conveniently ignored about effective armor thicknesses and such.
I tried to conform to those rules, but having to do dual conversions on all armour figures entered was just too much work (first multiplied with 0,95, and the result should divide evenly with 25mm) and confusing.
I think I pointed out that the trimming rule was pointless as it reflected incorrectly on the ships being simmed. If a ship has nine inches of armor, it has nine inches of armor, not 8.55 inches of armor. It is weight that matters for the sim to function properly. The armor adjustment in taken during combat only. Then it is armor equivalents that matter against shell penetration. This is why all Rohan's ships are listed as having Harvey-Nickel Steel Armor before a certain date and Krupps Steel afterwards. To keep the GM informed that the ship has inferior armor. There are very few countries that still used compound armor in the 1890s, though some in the 1880s.
Though most of our ships are over armored now because we tent to "armor to deflect out own gun sized" rather than the equivalent hit size...it just spurs increased gun size development.
I don't believe one can shift armor from one ship to another. Wasn't the armor made to fit one ship only, not mass produced. (I hope it was added over the ship's hull rather than being part of it on the inside).
Ithekro,
N3 has high armor thickness, as while gun calibers grow with time, battle ranges did not. While Dreadnought's armor is suitable for ranges over 10K, it would not stand up to the shorter ranges
Face hardened armor is an "add-on" on the hull, and its strength largely ignored in structural calculations, only its weight is taken into account - or only in compression not tension.
FH armor is made of blocks, and fastened to the hull by bolts, so can be easily removed (see the training ship conversions after WT), with the space between the hull and armor filled either with teak or concrete. There's nothing that prohibits putting the same armor on another ship.
http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/AMMUNITION/ARMOR.html
8.51 inches or armor equals 9.49 inches or armor (or 9.00 equals 9.99), I don't know of any battle sim that would take half inches of belt armor into account. And only "effective" thickness counts as it is defined in the actual sim.
Therefore only way to reflect any development of armor technology is to increase its 'effective' thickness. 10% increments are easier to calculate, that's why the new numbers.
Rework #2.
Two sets of Belt armor from the old ship is used, one upon the other (3800t), with a 2' deep high 'gap filler' on the top - so no upper belt.
Barbette armor over the weather deck has 12" thickness. Below the old armor is used (1300t reused).
Deck armor plating collected from three different ships should be enough to cover most of the ship. (1500t of 1800).
CTs armor reused (200t)
Armament reused (800t)
Subtract 400t for other losses.
Total savings: 7000t, $7.3 (after refurbishment effort)
Ship cost: 12.3BP and $10.8
Citadel is long so the turrets would fit on the ship.
Cape 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
19,199 t light; 20,114 t standard; 21,848 t normal; 23,235 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.00 ft / 555.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
169.16 m / 169.16 m x 25.91 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
2 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,343 lbs / 3,784 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.1" / 307 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 195.00 ft / 59.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 7.70" / 196 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.20" / 335 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 41,022 shp / 30,603 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,122 tons
Complement:
898 - 1,168
Cost:
£1.809 million / $7.236 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,043 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 9,049 tons, 41.4 %
- Belts: 4,614 tons, 21.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 539 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 1,797 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,877 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Tower: 222 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,865 tons, 8.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,920 tons, 31.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,649 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 322 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28,561 lbs / 12,955 Kg = 33.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.579
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.53 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.80 ft / 5.12 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.8 %
Waterplane Area: 33,828 Square feet or 3,143 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 713 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.38
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Orange has three old cruisers designed for commerce raiding that are in need of refit.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=433.0
The ships are large, have extreme range, but seriously underarmed, and slow in the age of turbines. What should I do with them?
A. leave them in the reserve, without upgrade.
B. Refit - cost $2 each. Now I have 3 ships that are outclassed by almost everyone.
C. Install new oil-fired reciprocating engines. I could get 24kts (max SHP limit for reciprocating engines) and the ship would have an immense oil capacity. Cost is $6.5 and 2.3BP, not worth it category.
D1. Scrap, use armament in coastal artillery, I recover a total of 4.5BP and $.
D2. Scrap, and build three coastal defense ships (for export?) reusing old armament and armor. I recover 4BP and $4 scrap.
Vanguarding saves 1.2BP from the old ships, the new vessels would have a displacement of 5250t, 20' draught, a speed of 23kts, and a max range of3000@16 (if oil-fired). 6.6"-3" belt, 1.5" deck, 7.7"/5.5" turrets, 4x8" and 12x6". With Misc. weight provisions for FCS, W/T.
Don't know if it would worth the bother, or I could export it to some neutral NPCs.
Comments?
Quote from: P3D on January 16, 2008, 02:52:05 PM
Orange has three old cruisers designed for commerce raiding that are in need of refit.
C. Install new oil-fired reciprocating engines. I could get 24kts (max SHP limit for reciprocating engines) and the ship would have an immense oil capacity. Cost is $6.5 and 2.3BP, not worth it category.
Comments?
How would this look?
"C2: C. Install new oil-fired reciprocating engines. Raise speed. Remove aft turret, build cargo space, use the ship as fast minelayer or as a fast transport.
Just a idea.
If not, scrap, the guns and armour is old and not worth vanguarding.
I was going to propose much the same thing as Korpen
New reciprocating engines are very expensive (2.2BP for 24kts, 1BP for 21kts). Refurbishment cost $2.
A transport version of the 16kts merchant coaliers cost 0.8BP and $0.6 (equipped with guns as an aux. cruiser), and have a capacity over 9000t. Installing turbines instead of VTE is less than $3, for a much more capable transport.
So the best idea is scrapping. Unless someone wants coastal defence ships.
D1. Orange has a substantial industrial sector, and relatively compact defensive needs; it shouldn't need to retain obsolete vessels simply for numbers.
They would be kept in reserve for a while. There will be new cruisers laid down 1911, crews will be assigned to the new ships. The Orange fleet is about the same size as in 1906, but there are less "capital ships" command slots available.
Refit them as patrol ships for runs between the home lands and the islands in the Atlantic and Indian Oceans?
Other than that, they are very old now. Rohan has been scrapping or selling ships of that age.
The design is 14 year old, the ships themselves are only past 10.
The 1887 ships right? Refitted 1901?
Oh I see, the second set of three. Those should be fine for patrol work. They got average speed and long range. They can match most armored cruisers in firepower, though their armor is a little thin, though not by much.
Probably, scrapping is the best bet.
I might keep one just for foreign stations, but otherwise, they are probably best retired to more useful services... like trimming beards and keeping ladies' legs smooth.
To the wreckers with them.
Borys
The replacements of the old cruisers. Designed by Captain Cesare "Speedy" Goncalves.
ORNS Hermes, Orange Cruiser ship type laid down 1911 (Engine 1912)
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1912
Displacement:
13,301 t light; 13,931 t standard; 15,217 t normal; 16,246 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.36 ft / 555.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
169.88 m / 169.16 m x 21.34 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
8 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (4x2 guns), 389.34lbs / 176.60kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all forward
10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1912 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,745 lbs / 1,699 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 354.00 ft / 107.90 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 199.00 ft / 60.66 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
2.00 ft / 0.61 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 3.00" / 76 mm 280.00 ft / 85.34 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,649 shp / 59,418 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,315 tons
Complement:
684 - 890
Cost:
£1.303 million / $5.213 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 468 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 4,138 tons, 27.2 %
- Belts: 2,014 tons, 13.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,017 tons, 6.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,002 tons, 6.6 %
- Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,176 tons, 20.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,369 tons, 35.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,916 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,599 lbs / 7,529 Kg = 42.6 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.548
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m (23.00 ft / 7.01 m aft of break)
- Mid (64 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 20.92 ft / 6.38 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.9 %
Waterplane Area: 27,071 Square feet or 2,515 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 617 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.62
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
little large for my tastes but looks like an all around solid ship
I had to edit the design, i realized some mistake i made (belt 13' deep, +300t). Good seakeeping at 27kts.
I can have a 3T3 version but I finished the engine techs one year earlier than the turrets. The 27kts 9x9.2 version would be slightly below 12000t.
Also a 'budget' design on 7500t, with 2T3 and 5" armor:
Ship laid down 1912
Displacement:
7,398 t light; 7,756 t standard; 8,515 t normal; 9,122 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
456.00 ft / 456.00 ft x 57.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
138.99 m / 138.99 m x 17.37 m x 6.40 m
Armament:
6 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (2x3 guns), 389.34lbs / 176.60kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,710 lbs / 1,229 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 1.00" / 25 mm 156.00 ft / 47.55 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 45,129 shp / 33,666 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,366 tons
Complement:
443 - 576
Cost:
£0.795 million / $3.182 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 339 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 1,758 tons, 20.6 %
- Belts: 834 tons, 9.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 377 tons, 4.4 %
- Armour Deck: 501 tons, 5.9 %
- Conning Tower: 45 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,799 tons, 21.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,362 tons, 39.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,117 tons, 13.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 140 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,706 lbs / 4,403 Kg = 24.9 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.90
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.546
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (62 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 20.28 ft / 6.18 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.5 %
Waterplane Area: 18,072 Square feet or 1,679 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 538 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.46
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I realy like that version looks like a decent ship imo
Your deck seems a little crowded w/ all those 3" and 4" deck mounts. And only 2 out of 14 are raised? Add in the 4 10mm mg's and the TTs and I don't know how you'd fit it all. I'm not saying you can't, I'd just like to see it. BTW, she seems kinda familiar for some reason, I just can't place it. ;)
Quote from: Sachmle on January 17, 2008, 02:59:08 AM
Your deck seems a little crowded w/ all those 3" and 4" deck mounts. And only 2 out of 14 are raised? Add in the 4 10mm mg's and the TTs and I don't know how you'd fit it all. I'm not saying you can't, I'd just like to see it. BTW, she seems kinda familiar for some reason, I just can't place it. ;)
It is just seven guns per side, that should not be any trubble to fit.
Quote from: Sachmle on January 17, 2008, 02:59:08 AM
Your deck seems a little crowded w/ all those 3" and 4" deck mounts. And only 2 out of 14 are raised? Add in the 4 10mm mg's and the TTs and I don't know how you'd fit it all. I'm not saying you can't, I'd just like to see it. BTW, she seems kinda familiar for some reason, I just can't place it. ;)
Forgot to mention, the two 4" guns are superfiring over the main gun turrets, I just did not want to get a separate weapon entry for them. And 2T3 arrangement is fairly common in N-verse, so deja vu is garanteed.
so list them as centerline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts. Then it looks like they're over the MB turrets. And it's 7 per side, on deck, plus 2 twin TT's per side.
Orange BC study, 27kts 8x13.5" on 25000t. Most probably won't be built.
laid down 1912
Displacement:
25,000 t light; 26,220 t standard; 28,360 t normal; 30,072 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
715.74 ft / 705.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
218.16 m / 214.88 m x 27.43 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in twin mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,462 lbs / 5,199 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 460.00 ft / 140.21 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 245.00 ft / 74.68 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 460.00 ft / 140.21 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,804 shp / 59,533 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 13.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,852 tons
Complement:
1,092 - 1,420
Cost:
£2.524 million / $10.096 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,433 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 9,427 tons, 33.2 %
- Belts: 4,091 tons, 14.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 766 tons, 2.7 %
- Armament: 2,315 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,994 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Tower: 260 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,182 tons, 11.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,638 tons, 37.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,360 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 320 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,597 lbs / 15,693 Kg = 28.1 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.521
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.50 ft / 8.99 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.50 ft / 5.64 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 19.49 ft / 5.94 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.4 %
Waterplane Area: 43,117 Square feet or 4,006 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 833 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.20
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Instead of the BC, Orange will lay down a single 23kts battleship in 1911 to build up the battleline.
B turret is superfiring.
Uncovered parts of the Barbettes are 13", the rest is 10".
8 of the 20 delivered French guns will arm this ship.
Orange BB laid down 1912
Displacement:
22,800 t light; 24,133 t standard; 26,515 t normal; 28,420 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
582.00 ft / 582.00 ft x 97.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
177.39 m / 177.39 m x 29.57 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
16 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,728 lbs / 5,320 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 362.00 ft / 110.34 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 220.00 ft / 67.06 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 362.00 ft / 110.34 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 362.00 ft / 110.34 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 45,829 shp / 34,189 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,287 tons
Complement:
1,038 - 1,350
Cost:
£2.269 million / $9.075 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,446 tons, 5.5 %
Armour: 9,894 tons, 37.3 %
- Belts: 4,706 tons, 17.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 563 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 2,507 tons, 9.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,851 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Tower: 268 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,827 tons, 6.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,332 tons, 35.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,716 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,361 lbs / 16,040 Kg = 28.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.567
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.12 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m (13.50 ft / 4.11 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.50 ft / 4.11 m
- Stern: 13.50 ft / 4.11 m
- Average freeboard: 18.36 ft / 5.60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.7 %
Waterplane Area: 40,026 Square feet or 3,719 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 836 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.50
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The rest of the French guns most probably will go into this battleship. Orange also needs a big battleship with all the buildings going on.
The upper and end belts are thinned down, and it does not cover the barbettes.
There's a 2" torpedo bulkhead that reaches the armor deck to give protection equivalent to 14".
Orange BB laid down 1912
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1909 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
30,400 t light; 32,254 t standard; 35,822 t normal; 38,677 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
670.00 ft / 670.00 ft x 106.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
204.22 m / 204.22 m x 32.31 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
12 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
16 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 16,728 lbs / 7,588 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 244.00 ft / 74.37 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
6.00 ft / 1.83 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 40.00 ft / 12.19 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
3rd: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 53,154 shp / 39,653 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,423 tons
Complement:
1,301 - 1,692
Cost:
£3.092 million / $12.369 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,061 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 12,636 tons, 35.3 %
- Belts: 4,863 tons, 13.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,243 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 3,350 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 2,852 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 328 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,119 tons, 5.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,233 tons, 36.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,422 tons, 15.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,695 lbs / 21,634 Kg = 38.8 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 8.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.588
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.88 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 18.20 ft / 5.55 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.7 %
Waterplane Area: 51,385 Square feet or 4,774 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 954 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
So one ship of similar status to your previous battleships, and one as a prestige ship / flagship?
Meanwhile I realized that I also had a 3T3 BB design in mind. Most probably this would get built. Barbette thickness is 13" above weather deck, 10" below (for 13" effective armor).
Orange BB laid down 1912
Displacement:
22,400 t light; 23,784 t standard; 25,449 t normal; 26,781 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.00 ft / 555.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
169.16 m / 169.16 m x 28.35 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
16 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,800 lbs / 5,806 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 352.00 ft / 107.29 m 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 203.00 ft / 61.87 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 352.00 ft / 107.29 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 352.00 ft / 107.29 m 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.5" / 292 mm
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 45,869 shp / 34,218 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,996 tons
Complement:
1,006 - 1,309
Cost:
£2.384 million / $9.536 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,600 tons, 6.3 %
Armour: 9,742 tons, 38.3 %
- Belts: 4,624 tons, 18.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 567 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 2,204 tons, 8.7 %
- Armour Deck: 2,086 tons, 8.2 %
- Conning Tower: 261 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,829 tons, 7.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,925 tons, 35.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,049 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 305 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,882 lbs / 13,554 Kg = 24.3 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 4.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.595
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.97 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m (17.50 ft / 5.33 m aft of break)
- Mid (58 %): 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
- Stern: 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
- Average freeboard: 18.72 ft / 5.71 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.5 %
Waterplane Area: 37,577 Square feet or 3,491 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 838 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Drawing of the 3T3x13.5" battleship.
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8930/orange1911bbsr1.png)
29 and 30' drafts... pretty deep.
No wonder they are so strong. :)
Nice ships, but how do you figure that variable barbette thickness?
If I did that on my ships, I could save tons of weight to put armor in other places?
I assumed barbette height is calculated from the top of main belt (most probably from waterline, but nevermind). There's a 8' deck, another 6-7' above deck, so I just took the average. BTW, it was a common practice back then.
The main reason for the 29' draught is that I did not want to go over BC=0.600. Beam was also fixed (fits in lvl 2 dock, L:B should not be much lower than 6:1) so I could get displacement only by increasing draught.
South Carolina was about 5.6:1.
Florida was about 5.9:1.
Wyoming was fully 5.3:1, don't know if that is before or after bulging, though.
In fact, virtually all the WWI era US battleships were in the 5.5-6.0 range, with some significantly lower. British, Japanese and German battleships tended to be longer and leaner, but the US ships serve as a reminder that 'normal' seldom is.
The lower values are for post-bulging, US ships were usually around 6:1. There were hardly any dreadnoughts with L:B below 5.9:1 when built - the exceptions are the SoCal, Espana, Nassau, Helgoland and Tegethoff classes.
I also try to keep them lean because they are 'fast' (23kts) battleships for the age.
The fast BB thing works for me.
Speed not being a primary concern for me... well, i have no problem building bathtubs.
Ahoj!
Oranje can have ships with deep draught. They have deep harbours.
Draught could be a problem for e.g. Baltic fleet, maybe CSA. Nederlanden have to dredge a lot. At Yamato stage Dutch ships will be flotated out unfitted, with turrrets installed in Scotland. And permenent station there.
OK - but that's for flavour. No game effect.
Borys
I know...
Actually, the whole issue was just curiosity.
I had noticed that most ships weren't running that deep and wondered why he wanted his to have drafts that deep. The same for the BC's, as some people are speed freaks and some firepower... and as one of the latter, I don't understand the constraints of designing for the former.
The barbette estimations was what I was really wondering about, but only functionally, so I can attempt similar calculations on my own ships to help save weight.
Italian, French and Austrian Dreadnoughts had relatively deep draught - 29-31 feet for similar size.
All had access to deep harbours.
Borys
I realized that I put 3" deck armor on the BB, too high for any conceivable battle distance. Shaving it down to 2.5" saves 400t displacement.
Orange BB laid down 1912
Displacement:
22,000 t light; 23,388 t standard; 25,034 t normal; 26,351 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.00 ft / 555.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
169.16 m / 169.16 m x 28.35 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
16 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,978 lbs / 5,887 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 356.00 ft / 108.51 m 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 199.00 ft / 60.66 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 356.00 ft / 108.51 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 356.00 ft / 108.51 m 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.5" / 292 mm
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 45,232 shp / 33,743 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,963 tons
Complement:
994 - 1,293
Cost:
£2.367 million / $9.466 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,600 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 9,359 tons, 37.4 %
- Belts: 4,601 tons, 18.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 573 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 2,204 tons, 8.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,722 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Tower: 258 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,803 tons, 7.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,938 tons, 35.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,034 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,208 lbs / 13,248 Kg = 23.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.585
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.97 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m (17.50 ft / 5.33 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
- Stern: 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
- Average freeboard: 18.72 ft / 5.71 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.9 %
Waterplane Area: 37,237 Square feet or 3,459 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 846 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.70
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Even more bad ideas from Kaapstad. Torpedo battleship. Bismarck-like armor scheme (11" belt and 4" deck at 45 degrees), 6 TT fore , 8-8 sides, 2 aft. TB thickness to signify additional watertight subdivision around the TTs.
Torpedo Battleship laid down 1912
Displacement:
23,997 t light; 24,997 t standard; 26,740 t normal; 28,134 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
660.00 ft / 660.00 ft x 91.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
201.17 m / 201.17 m x 27.74 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
4 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
16 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,649 lbs / 3,016 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
24 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 435.00 ft / 132.59 m 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 225.00 ft / 68.58 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 435.00 ft / 132.59 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.00" / 76 mm 435.00 ft / 132.59 m 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.5" / 292 mm
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,818 shp / 59,544 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,137 tons
Complement:
1,045 - 1,359
Cost:
£1.984 million / $7.935 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 831 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 11,035 tons, 41.3 %
- Belts: 5,719 tons, 21.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,400 tons, 5.2 %
- Armament: 1,347 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 2,299 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Tower: 270 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,183 tons, 11.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,548 tons, 32.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,743 tons, 10.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,043 lbs / 15,442 Kg = 27.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.537
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.50 ft / 5.64 m
- Mid (60 %): 18.50 ft / 5.64 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.50 ft / 5.64 m
- Stern: 18.50 ft / 5.64 m
- Average freeboard: 19.26 ft / 5.87 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.7 %
Waterplane Area: 41,421 Square feet or 3,848 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 710 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Why would you want that many TTs, or any for that matter, on a BB? By the time you close to torpedo range you've defeated the purpose of the BB, to hit hard from far away. I understand this is a "concept ship", but still. IMO it's a bad idea.
In fairness - he did say it was a bad idea right in the thread.
It's a quaint idea - but if you were to build it, I'd dump the big guns for more armor or, perhaps, anti-cruiser guns. You're not looking to shoot up battleships on the way in to torpedo range, you're looking to keep the enemy's screening elements from torpedoing you first.
Quote from: P3D on February 15, 2008, 11:45:27 PM
Even more bad ideas from Kaapstad. Torpedo battleship. Bismarck-like armor scheme (11" belt and 4" deck at 45 degrees), 6 TT fore , 8-8 sides, 2 aft. TB thickness to signify additional watertight subdivision around the TTs.
Torpedo Battleship laid down 1912
Somehow that ship put me in mind of the late WW1 "large light cruisers". :)
I think the concept might work if she is reduced in size a bit, such a large torpedo loadout can if nothing else be usefull to disrupt enemy torpedo attacks on her before they get into range to launch their own torpedos.
Somehow I recall that some navy had proposed a torpedo battleship at some point, but I honestly can't think of who or when this was proposed.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on February 16, 2008, 05:01:34 PM
In fairness - he did say it was a bad idea right in the thread.
And I was just agreeing w/ him. It's an
interesting idea, but IMO ;) an ultimately useless one.
Ithekro - I think the Russians contemplated this, probably pre-revolution. I assume the designer wound up in a gulag for his troubles.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on February 16, 2008, 05:58:40 PM
Ithekro - I think the Russians contemplated this, probably pre-revolution. I assume the designer wound up in a gulag for his troubles.
Or apparently in Orange. ;D :D ;D
Actually the USN did, around WWI. Battleship size, hardly any armor (4" turtledeck, no belt) 4x14" and a zillion (32) 6" gun. Too lazy to look up Friedmann.
The design idea was inspired by battleship designs with 15"+ (i.e. inpenetrable) belt armor. This ship is supposed to take punishment, get close, and launch fishes at the enemy battleline. Won't do the job better than 20 DDs, though.
Thing is, though, given torpedo hit rates, and given that, by my understanding, tubes take a couple of minutes to reload, most of those super-armored ships aren't going to be much more impressed by those than they would be by gunfire.
Well, the ship can get close to improve hit chances. Then torpedoes are generally unimpressed by belt armor, and will cause some flooding. This ship can launch like 22 torpedoes (side ones with gyro settings, and after those torpedoes passed the ship, the bow ones, then disengage).
Still, better to get 22-30 destroyers, as the survivors would have more torpedoes to launch than one monstre ship.
Torpedo hit rates are basic trigonometry.
Armored Kitikomi more or less.
Tried my skills at Solidworks, I managed to draw this nice 3x13.5" turret.
(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4334/turret1xg6.png)
Not too bad, not too bad at all.
The hull with turrets.
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7278/incompletehullus5.png)
Solidworks is cool
Nice turrets
Jef ;)
I might be getting into the details too much, but the turrets are rotatable and I can change the individual gun elevation too. Turret shape is taken from the Tegethoff. Guns might be on the thin side - at least making them thicker is trivial in SolidWorks.
Jefge, what did you use to get the hull shape? I used splines with three intermediate points.
For the hull shape I use arc of circle
For gunboat Rio Serena class (38mx5m)
Radius 75 - 30°
For battleship Cuzco class (127mx23m)
Radius 200 - 37°
Jef ;)
I realized that the original design (a few pages back) with flush deck did not leave any space for above-freeboard secondaries (actually, to the funnel uptakes). Redesigned the whole ship (extra 1000t) to have a stepped hull like the preceding class - and putting 10 of the 6" guns in hull casemates. They are still high (5m+) above WL.
Armor arrangement does not have sloped deck, similar to Tennessee class, with TB up to the main deck.
Orange BB, laid down 1912
Displacement:
23,000 t light; 24,405 t standard; 26,502 t normal; 28,179 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.35 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
16 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,801 lbs / 5,806 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 197.00 ft / 60.05 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 36.00 ft / 10.97 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 46,918 shp / 35,001 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,774 tons
Complement:
1,038 - 1,350
Cost:
£2.411 million / $9.644 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,600 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 9,899 tons, 37.4 %
- Belts: 4,148 tons, 15.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 959 tons, 3.6 %
- Armament: 2,427 tons, 9.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,097 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Tower: 268 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,871 tons, 7.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,326 tons, 35.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,502 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 305 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,698 lbs / 15,739 Kg = 28.2 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.597
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.99 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (60 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 20.12 ft / 6.13 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.8 %
Waterplane Area: 37,776 Square feet or 3,510 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 853 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.83
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5312/bb5viewvk8.png)
WOW :o, nice solidworks image. Pretty good design too, but looking at the pic all the casemates but the 4 on the aft deck are "Hull mount", IMO.
Quote from: Sachmle on June 02, 2008, 06:56:59 PM
WOW :o, nice solidworks image. Pretty good design too, but looking at the pic all the casemates but the 4 on the aft deck are "Hull mount", IMO.
Maybe, but not in what springsharp considers the hull (that is, below freeboard).
If the 2 amidships are above freeboard then they're deck level, but that makes the amidships turret above deck level, and therefore a raised mount.
Quote from: Sachmle on June 03, 2008, 01:13:51 AM
If the 2 amidships are above freeboard then they're deck level, but that makes the amidships turret above deck level, and therefore a raised mount.
The amidship break is a full deck height. Q turret is fore of it, while the four casemate mounts are aft.
As a note, changing gun turret arrangement 'majority forward' (...of midbreak) I get the same strength. Switching majority aft gives me some extra as expected.
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/Sachmle/Orange.jpg)
It is below the freeboard thus below the weather deck. High freeboard has its own weight penalty.
What I'm getting at is that if one counts all the casemates that are forward of the midbreak, and therefore below deck level the equal 10, but you only show 8 as "hull mount".
Quote14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Ah, I see. I thought I updated that, apparently not. Thanks. An extra 5t misc. weight.
Sorry I took so long to make my point. The Solidworks drawing made it a little hard to be specific, mostly because it was sideways. Very nice work though, I wish I had/knew how to use it. ;)
BTW, wikipedia lists some free 3d modeling tools. I will look at them to see which could be used the easiest...
The Fury class cruiser. Fore superstructure was inspired by the Duquesne class.
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3210/cruiserassemblyvp8.png)
Full size image here:
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3210/cruiserassemblyvp8.png
:o :o :o
Cool design - congrats for your works. ::) ::) ::)
Just a remark... the bridge is perhaps too massive for 1912-13
Jef ;)
Quote from: Jefgte on June 19, 2008, 05:47:01 PM
Cool design - congrats for your works. ::) ::) ::)
Just a remark... the bridge is perhaps too massive for 1912-13
Demanded by the superfiring. The CT must be higher than B turret, the bridge should look over the CT.
My headache is to determine what number of small platforms should go on the mast.
BTW, Jef, about smilies.
Please get the smilie out of your signature, it's hard to determine whether you are joking or not...
And the rolleyes are not compliment, but the opposite.
Maybe the issue is the length of superstructure, not the height. Height is necessary due to superfiring, as you stated, but length may be excessive for 1912-13 as Jef noted. I does look like the Duquesne though, I'll give you that.
Quote from: P3D on June 19, 2008, 06:04:22 PM
Quote from: Jefgte on June 19, 2008, 05:47:01 PM
Cool design - congrats for your works. ::) ::) ::)
Just a remark... the bridge is perhaps too massive for 1912-13
BTW, Jef, about smilies.
Please get the smilie out of your signature, it's hard to determine whether you are joking or not...
And the rolleyes are not compliment, but the opposite.
No offense P3D , thanks to ignore smilies & consider compliments.
Jef
An Orange Cruiser study, essentially the Fury class with slimmed down armor and new (yet to be developed) engines.
Fury class here:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=433.msg22183#msg22183
Orange Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
9,699 t light; 10,215 t standard; 11,123 t normal; 11,850 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 65.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 169.77 m x 19.81 m x 7.01 m
Armament:
8 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (4x2 guns), 389.34lbs / 176.60kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 3,435 lbs / 1,558 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 383.00 ft / 116.74 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 174.00 ft / 53.04 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 62,472 shp / 46,604 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,635 tons
Complement:
541 - 704
Cost:
£1.679 million / $6.716 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 429 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 2,156 tons, 19.4 %
- Belts: 972 tons, 8.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 480 tons, 4.3 %
- Armour Deck: 650 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,328 tons, 20.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,487 tons, 40.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,424 tons, 12.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,651 lbs / 4,831 Kg = 27.4 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.468
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (40 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 18.44 ft / 5.62 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.1 %
Waterplane Area: 23,436 Square feet or 2,177 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 122 lbs/sq ft or 593 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Nice AC
Orange will not enter the BC fan club. However, a fast BB might just be built (with protection on the level of the existing battleline), laid down 1914 January, with 9 of the 11 remaining French 13.5" guns.
Main gun arrangement is APY (all centerline, no superfiring), with twin superfiring turrets at BQX position and two additional twin 6" on each side afore of the center turret.
Orange Fast BB laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
27,563 t light; 29,041 t standard; 31,085 t normal; 32,720 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.00 ft / 720.00 ft x 95.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
219.46 m / 219.46 m x 28.96 m x 10.06 m
Armament:
9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (3x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.39" / 10.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,588 lbs / 5,710 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 460.00 ft / 140.21 m 13.50 ft / 4.11 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Upper: 3.00" / 76 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 460.00 ft / 140.21 m 40.00 ft / 12.19 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 5.00" / 127 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 5.00" / 127 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 79,990 shp / 59,673 Kw = 26.75 kts
Range 8,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,679 tons
Complement:
1,169 - 1,521
Cost:
£3.478 million / $13.913 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,573 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 10,744 tons, 34.6 %
- Belts: 4,168 tons, 13.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,362 tons, 4.4 %
- Armament: 2,427 tons, 7.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,489 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 298 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,189 tons, 10.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,727 tons, 37.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,522 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 330 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,497 lbs / 16,101 Kg = 28.9 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.482
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.58 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.50 ft / 7.16 m
- Mid (35 %): 23.50 ft / 7.16 m (15.50 ft / 4.72 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
- Stern: 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
- Average freeboard: 18.82 ft / 5.74 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.7 %
Waterplane Area: 44,842 Square feet or 4,166 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 181 lbs/sq ft or 883 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I agree with you, BC are nice ships but... speed is not armour. I will not enter too in BC Fan Club
If you reduce speed to about 24-25kts, you could have 4T3x343.
I like the disposition of the turrets
Jef
Quote from: Jefgte on August 01, 2008, 05:33:32 PM
I agree with you, BC are nice ships but... speed is not armour. I will not enter too in BC Fan Club
If you reduce speed to about 24-25kts, you could have 4T3x343.
I like the disposition of the turrets
Jef
My battleline (after I got the ships built) will have a speed of 23kts. My frigates have the speed of 27kts, so I'd not go for a slower ship.
With this arrangement the turbines are forward of Q turret.
(http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3049/orange1913bbru7.png)
Due to the political uncertainties a fourth 23kts 13.5" battleship will be ordered as planned instead of the BC above.
"...Orange will not enter the BC fan club..."
First idea is the best.
23kts - 4xBBs is better choice than "thin clad big guns ships" (BC)
---------
Suggest:
If you reduce the speed to the standard 21kts, you could add more 13"5 guns or more armour for identical displacement...
Jef
Quote from: Jefgte on August 04, 2008, 07:28:56 AM
"...Orange will not enter the BC fan club..."
First idea is the best.
23kts - 4xBBs is better choice than "thin clad big guns ships" (BC)
---------
Suggest:
If you reduce the speed to the standard 21kts, you could add more 13"5 guns or more armour for identical displacement...
Jef
The 23kts was inspired by the four planned DKB ships of 23+kts in 1906.
When Orange already has three BBs of 23kts and one laid down, building slower ships is not a good idea. But yes, it costs 2000t or so vs. a 21kts battleline speed.
I wonder how much of an advantage 2 knots would really be. The OTL US Navy did a bunch of war games in the 20s that revealed that a thin edge in speed like that wasn't much use, as a reluctant enemy, unless backed up to a coast, could always turn away and decline action.
I'd think that to really be worth it, against an anticipated 21 knot adversary, you'd need to be capable of more like 25 knots, maybe more depending on how well your ships are protected vs. the other guys main armament.
On about 30,000 tons, 25 vs 21 knots means one less 2x15" turret with everything else being equal.
So then the question is: is the 4 knot speed advantage worth 2 main guns (or a heck of a lot more armor). I'm not sure yet.
Quote from: guinness on August 04, 2008, 11:38:24 AM
I wonder how much of an advantage 2 knots would really be. The OTL US Navy did a bunch of war games in the 20s that revealed that a thin edge in speed like that wasn't much use, as a reluctant enemy, unless backed up to a coast, could always turn away and decline action.
I'd think that to really be worth it, against an anticipated 21 knot adversary, you'd need to be capable of more like 25 knots, maybe more depending on how well your ships are protected vs. the other guys main armament.
On about 30,000 tons, 25 vs 21 knots means one less 2x15" turret with everything else being equal.
So then the question is: is the 4 knot speed advantage worth 2 main guns (or a heck of a lot more armor). I'm not sure yet.
The anticipated adversary was not a 21kt one, but a 23.5kt battleline.
A possible Orange answer to the different battlecruiser designs - a 27kts fast battleship with 6x15" and with battleline level of protection. Guns are 15"/40 with 2000lbs shells in twin turrets. 2" TDS reaches up to the armored deck 7' above normal waterline - to catch splinters etc. Main belt still the vertical type.
Perceived mission is heavy battleline scout.
I could wait until 1916 and have better engines, but I have to build something in 1915, and that means like two more years to finish even larger fast battleships.
Should I wait that one year and build something interim, or the lack of battlecruisers for another two years is too much of a risk - even if Orange is not planning to get into any war?
Kaap, Orange Battleship laid down 1915 (engine 1912)
Displacement:
25,750 t light; 27,112 t standard; 29,414 t normal; 31,256 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.62 ft / 719.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
219.95 m / 219.15 m x 28.04 m x 9.75 m
Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all forward
6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.36" / 9.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 13,624 lbs / 6,180 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 452.00 ft / 137.77 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 267.00 ft / 81.38 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 452.00 ft / 137.77 m 38.00 ft / 11.58 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,075 shp / 59,736 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,144 tons
Complement:
1,122 - 1,459
Cost:
£2.582 million / $10.328 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,469 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 9,878 tons, 33.6 %
- Belts: 3,987 tons, 13.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,271 tons, 4.3 %
- Armament: 1,937 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,416 tons, 8.2 %
- Conning Tower: 267 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,193 tons, 10.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,901 tons, 37.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,664 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 310 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,913 lbs / 15,836 Kg = 20.7 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.486
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.82 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
- Mid (35 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m (14.50 ft / 4.42 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Stern: 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Average freeboard: 17.90 ft / 5.46 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121.9 %
Waterplane Area: 43,534 Square feet or 4,044 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 848 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The version with 1916 engines and quad 15"s.
Kaap 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1916
Displacement:
27,500 t light; 28,977 t standard; 31,008 t normal; 32,633 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.62 ft / 719.00 ft x 95.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
219.95 m / 219.15 m x 28.96 m x 9.75 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all forward
6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.36" / 9.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 15,124 lbs / 6,860 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 249.00 ft / 75.90 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 38.00 ft / 11.58 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 83,260 shp / 62,112 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,656 tons
Complement:
1,167 - 1,518
Cost:
£4.884 million / $19.537 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,891 tons, 6.1 %
Armour: 10,073 tons, 32.5 %
- Belts: 4,089 tons, 13.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,322 tons, 4.3 %
- Armament: 1,868 tons, 6.0 %
- Armour Deck: 2,518 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 276 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,102 tons, 10.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,125 tons, 39.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,508 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 310 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,769 lbs / 15,771 Kg = 20.6 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 5.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.497
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
- Mid (40 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m (14.50 ft / 4.42 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Stern: 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Average freeboard: 18.30 ft / 5.58 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.1 %
Waterplane Area: 45,366 Square feet or 4,215 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 188 lbs/sq ft or 916 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Both have lower BC than I think appropriate for a capital ship (even a fast one). I'm thinking the quad design needs a little more beam, too.
I'd find the first design perfectly fine if only she had the third turret superfiring. No obvious problems with the quad design, and I happen to be partial to quads.
As to building them - while you can't predict what others may do to Orange, you lack significant offshore possessions and can call on the Furies to take on scouting functions in an emergency. Assuming you feel you need battlecruisers, I think you could wait the extra year.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on September 16, 2008, 06:33:11 AM
Both have lower BC than I think appropriate for a capital ship (even a fast one).
Some historical BCs had a lower BC than that even (Bayerns among others) not saying your wrong or that it isnt a tad low (I prefer .5 myself) just saying it isnt out of line with historic ships ^.^
Quote from: P3D on September 15, 2008, 03:09:52 PM
Perceived mission is heavy battleline scout.
I could wait until 1916 and have better engines, but I have to build something in 1915, and that means like two more years to finish even larger fast battleships.
Should I wait that one year and build something interim, or the lack of battlecruisers for another two years is too much of a risk - even if Orange is not planning to get into any war?
Orannje got the most secure strategic situation in the world, so in your shoes I would not feeel hurry to produce a BC one way or the other.
A design study that was not shown to the Ministry of Finance due to concerns over the Minister's weak heart. The penultimate answer to the 'what could be done to counter all those pesky battlecruisers' question (the ultimate one being another 9000t and 4 guns heavier).
Cape 3, Orange Battleship laid down 1916
Displacement:
41,000 t light; 43,129 t standard; 46,754 t normal; 49,654 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
832.57 ft / 824.00 ft x 103.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
253.77 m / 251.16 m x 31.39 m x 10.06 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x4 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all forward
6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.36" / 9.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 17,624 lbs / 7,994 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.5" / 343 mm 600.00 ft / 182.88 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 224.00 ft / 68.28 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 600.00 ft / 182.88 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 112 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 600.00 ft / 182.88 m 41.00 ft / 12.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 180,767 shp / 134,852 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,525 tons
Complement:
1,589 - 2,066
Cost:
£6.490 million / $25.959 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,891 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 15,795 tons, 33.8 %
- Belts: 7,283 tons, 15.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,820 tons, 3.9 %
- Armament: 2,311 tons, 4.9 %
- Armour Deck: 3,961 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 419 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 6,735 tons, 14.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,079 tons, 34.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,754 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
54,384 lbs / 24,668 Kg = 32.2 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 8.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 7.0 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.584
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (47 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.40 ft / 6.22 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.7 %
Waterplane Area: 61,166 Square feet or 5,683 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 189 lbs/sq ft or 923 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.04
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
The second 'vanguarded' Orange BB. Less belt armor available from the old battleships (enough only for 10' of the belt), which necessitated some changes from the previous design. As a result less old armor is used, and the barbettes are of new armor.
Reused stuff mainly 1000t mounts and guns, and 4200t armor (main, end, upper belt, turret and CT). Saving is 5.4BP and $6.4.
So cost is 13.1BP and $ including refurbishment of armament - increasing gun elevation and updating equipment to use fire control.
Benguela, Orange Battleship laid down 1912
Displacement:
18,500 t light; 19,395 t standard; 20,863 t normal; 22,037 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.00 ft / 555.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
169.16 m / 169.16 m x 25.91 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,343 lbs / 3,784 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
Ends: 6.30" / 160 mm 195.00 ft / 59.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 7.50 ft / 2.29 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.7" / 348 mm 7.35" / 187 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 6.30" / 160 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.65" / 347 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 39,484 shp / 29,455 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,642 tons
Complement:
867 - 1,128
Cost:
£1.744 million / $6.976 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,043 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 8,613 tons, 41.3 %
- Belts: 4,059 tons, 19.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 539 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 1,960 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,832 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 223 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,574 tons, 7.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,910 tons, 33.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,363 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 360 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28,400 lbs / 12,882 Kg = 32.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.553
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.53 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.80 ft / 5.12 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.0 %
Waterplane Area: 33,010 Square feet or 3,067 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 726 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The follow-on secret (IC not public) fast battleship study. Nothing official yet, at least the designers cut the weight down a bit. May I present you Gascogne (with 2.5" thinner deck armor than historical)?
Belt is 10* inclined if I get the tech by then. Any larger inclination is felt to leave too large 'gap' for plunging shells. Upper belt only protects the casemated secondaries. TB comes up to armored deck 8' above WL. The deck above is 9' high. Now the only thing I don't like a bit is the 33' draught. Reducing draught to 31' and increasing beam 2' cost 600t.
About beam. Normandie with 13.4" quads had 88.5' beam, scale it to 15" you get 99'.
That I got the size cut down, to 37000t, I might actually consider building her. However, other nations might find it threatening, so politically it might be have repercussions.
And some strange SS2 artifact. If I change laydown date to 1912, the composite strength remains unchanged - though the required belt length increases. Any idea why?
Cape 2b, Orange Battleship laid down 1916
Displacement:
37,000 t light; 38,920 t standard; 41,367 t normal; 43,325 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
770.80 ft / 768.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
234.94 m / 234.09 m x 29.26 m x 10.06 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x4 guns), 2,100.00lbs / 952.54kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all forward
6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.36" / 9.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18,424 lbs / 8,357 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 105
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 570.00 ft / 173.74 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 3.05" / 77 mm 198.00 ft / 60.35 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 570.00 ft / 173.74 m 40.00 ft / 12.19 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 172,570 shp / 128,737 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,405 tons
Complement:
1,449 - 1,885
Cost:
£6.191 million / $24.763 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,891 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 13,204 tons, 31.9 %
- Belts: 5,562 tons, 13.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,687 tons, 4.1 %
- Armament: 2,119 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,476 tons, 8.4 %
- Conning Tower: 361 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 6,430 tons, 15.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,991 tons, 36.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,367 tons, 10.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 485 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
43,685 lbs / 19,815 Kg = 25.9 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 5.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.595
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (56 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 22.04 ft / 6.72 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.8 %
Waterplane Area: 53,676 Square feet or 4,987 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 940 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
When do the limits on HP per shaft go away? Is it:
1913: Engine year 1916, Max. Turbine power
or
1917: Engine year 1920, unlimited power/shaft
?? I've always found those two to be a bit ambiguous. It hadn't mattered to me yet, so I hadn't gotten around to asking.
On 37,000t she seems a very capable ship. Her .595 Block coefficient seems a little portly for such a fast ship though.
There was a shaft HP limit before it was edited out after I left modding.
BCwise, G3 was around 0.59, Iowa around 0.62.
Didn't know what G3's BC was. Iowa is probably a slightly special case because of the Panama Canal, I'm guessing.
But at any rate, carry on. If there is no SHP limit on the 1916 engine tech, I've got some resimming to do :)
Quote from: P3D on September 22, 2008, 03:08:02 PM
There was a shaft HP limit before it was edited out after I left modding.
BCwise, G3 was around 0.59, Iowa around 0.62.
im still trying to figure out how to sim G3 LOL
The 30,000t Wraak ('Revenge') class. This would be the first Orange Battleship with superfiring turrets. No superfiring would save around 2000t. "Mixed" secondary armament - both casemates and mounts with hoist.
Armor scheme follows suit the existing battleships - thick vertical belt up to armored deck, and a 2" armored bulkhead behind. The 20 Torpedoes are including reloads - have a lot of hull space to play with.
Wraak, Orange Battleship type laid down 1912
Displacement:
29,502 t light; 31,425 t standard; 33,894 t normal; 35,869 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
640.00 ft / 640.00 ft x 101.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
195.07 m / 195.07 m x 30.78 m x 9.45 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline, all forward
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.36" / 9.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18,268 lbs / 8,286 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
20 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 220.00 ft / 67.06 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
10.00 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 38.00 ft / 11.58 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 4.00" / 102 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 51,880 shp / 38,702 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,444 tons
Complement:
1,248 - 1,623
Cost:
£2.978 million / $11.911 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,971 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 12,159 tons, 35.9 %
- Belts: 4,576 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,153 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 3,075 tons, 9.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,038 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 316 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,069 tons, 6.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,884 tons, 38.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,391 tons, 13.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 420 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,194 lbs / 18,685 Kg = 24.4 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.32
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.592
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (22 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (40 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 19.62 ft / 5.98 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.1 %
Waterplane Area: 46,924 Square feet or 4,359 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 978 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Something the KKK could build as well .... :)
Looks fine. I like the heavy secondary battery.
QuoteI like the heavy secondary battery.
Yes, Rocky but DDs don't like them very much :D :D :D
Jef ;)
As I have stated before im not a huge fan of the 6" gun, I feal its just to heavy to be used as a QF mount. Thats why I went 5" on all the ships I built for Italia, and my NS ships use 4" (I plan to develop or purchase a 5" gun for future projects)
The CSA uses a similar in character justification for it's 5.5" gun (75 pound round vs 100 pound round).
I think OOC I agree though. The 6" gun was the world standard for cruisers and BB secondaries OTL largely because the Brits had adopted it in the Majestics and their other pre-dreads. There was, after all, considerable debate in Britain about 4" vs. 6" secondaries in Britain during the pre WW1 arms race. So in that respect, I think the 5" (particularly a high MV 5" like the US 5"/51) is the right compromise for capital ship anti-torpedo craft armament.
Cruisers may be another matter though. If the 6" cruiser is prevalent, then a 5" armed cruiser has to worry about being outranged by it's opponent. Truthfully, the US 5"/51 might have made a decent cruiser armament because of it's high MV in the age before fire control meant that engagements were likely to take place near maximum range, but once reliable FC was common, maybe not.
This seams (at least from my reading of Freidman) to be the reason that the US became so keen on 8" armed cruisers, despite their slow ROF.
So anyway, the point of this long winded rant is:
For Capital ship secondaries: you want the largest reliably quick firing gun you can mount, I think.
For Cruisers: you need a gun that can reach an an opponent you can't outrun at or beyond his maximum range. If this can be quick firing, all the better.
It's an interesting problem though.
Problem that the main advantage of the 5" comes only with proximity fuses (that's still 28 years away in Nverse), without that a smaller AA caliber (i.e. 3-4") + 6" secondaries is a much better combination.
The 5"/58" also sacrificed MV (anti-surface performance) for lighter mount and faster training (due to the lighter gun weight).
P3D: true and true (though I'm pretty sure you mean the 5"/38).
I think that a longer 5" gun (like the historical US 5"/31) is superior to a 6" gun for anti-tb use because it has superior ROF while still throwing a large enough shell to do the job against an un-armored opponent. On top of that, the same ship can also ship more of them.
And you mean 5"/51 :P.
The other advantage of 6" is at distance. Longer range, higher terminal velocity, heavier shells, and the ROF advantage of 5" is less pronounced.
BTW the ROF advantage of the same era 5" vs 6" is like 33% higher vs. twice as heavy shells.
There should be a link to fascinating c. 1920 RN debates on 5,5" vs 6" guns.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2434.0
Without parallel and unrelated appearance of weatherproof nmounts, the 5,5" could had been adopted as the gun for cruisers.
The KKK is developing a 75lbs gun, the 5,3"/135mm ...
Borys
Just wanted to make sure you were paying attention :-)
Between a 5" gun and 6" gun, one gives up 50% projectile weight, but picks up 33% in ROF *per gun*. However, since you can mount more of them, you are getting a much higher ROF advantage per ship. For instance, if a hypothetical ship can mount 12 6" guns, firing at 6 rpm, that gives you 72 rpm total. Imagine the same ship could mount 18 5" guns (a number I think is probably about right). It could fire at 8 rpm 144 rpm total. That's twice the number of rounds per minute, higher likelyhood of hits at ranges both guns can reach, etc.
If the job is to kill a TB or a destroyer, I think the 5" gunned ship has the advantage.
Borys: I remember that link, but I think I read it when you (I think it was you) posted it on warships projects. It is well worth reading.
When your shell time-of-flight is larger than the loading time, then higher ROF starts losing advantages. Time-of-flight to 5000y is about 6s, 8000y is ~10s (6RPM). Shooting without spotting might not be the best idea, as you can not correct for he fall. AFAIK.
True, but how much spotting by splashes are you going to be doing for a gun you are firing at less than 5 degrees elevation? Even at 8000 yds, the 5"/51 is shooting at 4.2 degrees elevation with a 7.2 degree angle of fall (all per navweaps). Seems to me that spotting might still be less important there than with main armament calibers, right?
More guns also means you can engage more targets at once, and still have coordinated fire, which still seems like an advantage to me.
Quote from: P3D on October 10, 2008, 01:06:28 PM
Shooting without spotting might not be the best idea, as you can not correct for he fall. AFAIK.
One can, but it is tricky. The more normal thing to do is to go to rapid fire (shell fire before the one before have landed) as long as the target is straddled (with continuous corrections), and when it is judged that it is no longer straddle one stops rapid fire to get better spotting/correction until one get on the target again.
Quote from: guinness on October 10, 2008, 01:10:21 PM
True, but how much spotting by splashes are you going to be doing for a gun you are firing at less than 5 degrees elevation? Even at 8000 yds, the 5"/51 is shooting at 4.2 degrees elevation with a 7.2 degree angle of fall (all per navweaps). Seems to me that spotting might still be less important there than with main armament calibers, right?
It is true that spotting is usually less important for secondaries, as they often fulfil the function of close in defence, at 50hm the flight time is usually less then a full boats length, even for 30kts DDs.
But the reason I went for all12cm gun on my ships have been noted, I can get almost twice as many 12cm guns for the same weight as I could get 15cm guns. 16 12cm gun or 8 15cm felt like an easy choice.
The fact that about every ship i am building now and its grandmother is armed with them also helps matters along... :)
However, a 12cm gun is close to useless against almost any sort of armour.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on October 10, 2008, 01:29:48 PM
However, a 12cm gun is close to useless against almost any sort of armour.
Borys
Probably true. Do capital ship secondaries really need to be effective against an armored opponent though?
This though is the reason why cruisers usually don't carry 12cm guns, which I think reinforces my idea that Cruiser primary armament and capital ship secondary armament necessarily has different requirements.
Quote from: Borys on October 10, 2008, 01:29:48 PM
However, a 12cm gun is close to useless against almost any sort of armour.
Borys
Well, a CPC/SAP from a 12cm gun could defeat 75mm armour out to about 6.5km. But granted that cruiser armour is likely to withstand hits in most situations over 5-6km. However that is still longer then torpedo attack range, and that is what the secondaries are for, preventing torpedo attacks for succeeding.
One should get about the same shell weight on target for the given amount of armament weight at the same ROF. Another issue is space. One 6" mount does not take twice as much space than an 5" mount - then adding armor evens out some of the weight difference.
Now add spotting difficulties for these light shells - more pronounced for 5" than for 6".
ToF tables from NavWeaps.
5"/51 Time of flight for MV = 3,150 fps (960 mps)
1,000 yards (910 m): 1.0 seconds
5,000 yards (4,570 m): 6.2 seconds
10,000 yards (9,140 m): 17.0 seconds
16,000 yards (14,630 m): 36.3 seconds
18,800 yards (17,190 m): 47.8 seconds
Time of flight for AAC projectile with MV = 2,500 fps (762 mps) (5"/38):
5,000 yards (4,570 m): 8.0 seconds
10,000 yards (9,140 m): 22.0 seconds
15,000 yards (13,720 m): 43.0 seconds
17,270 yards (15,790 m): 68.8 seconds
UK 6" shell 112lbs MV = 2,700 fps (823 mps)
5,000 yards (4,570 m): 6.6 seconds
10,000 yards (9,140 m): 15.9 seconds
15,000 yards (13,720 m): 29.4 seconds
20,000 yards (18,290 m): 47.2 seconds
24,500 yards (22,400 m): 71.4 seconds
Time of flight for AP Shell (US 8"/55 260lbs) with MV = 2,800 fps (853 mps)
6,000 yards (5,490 m): 7.3 seconds
10,000 yards (9,140 m): 13.4 seconds
20,000 yards (18,290 m): 35.2 seconds
30,000 yards (27,430 m): 70.6 seconds
To each their own. I like large numbers of 5.5", so I just make sure the hull is large enough to accommodate them.
Quote from: Korpen on October 10, 2008, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: Borys on October 10, 2008, 01:29:48 PM
However, a 12cm gun is close to useless against almost any sort of armour.
Borys
Well, a CPC/SAP from a 12cm gun could defeat 75mm armour out to about 6.5km. But granted that cruiser armour is likely to withstand hits in most situations over 5-6km. However that is still longer then torpedo attack range, and that is what the secondaries are for, preventing torpedo attacks for succeeding.
Too optimistic - the figures I see on Navweapons say 6500 YARDS, not metres, and Non Cemented armour at perpedicular impact. So I'd guess that at such range 2 inches of better armour wold be enough.
I'm with guiness here - the 5,3" is for battleship secondaries, or for small fleet cruisers. Trade cruisers need the 6" guns to fight armoured adversaries.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on October 10, 2008, 10:31:05 PM
Too optimistic - the figures I see on Navweapons say 6500 YARDS, not metres, and Non Cemented armour at perpedicular impact. So I'd guess that at such range 2 inches of better armour wold be enough.
Different guns, I used my own 12/50 with 28kg SAP shells (or the IRL Russian 12/50), which have about 18% more muzzle energy. At 6,5 km the difference in impact energy is close to 50% greater for the L50 gun.
What if the attacker happens to be a well armored cruiser? There where several cases in the last war of cruisers conducting torpedo attacks including a sucesful one against a German battleship. Personally I prefer a mix of 6" and 4" guns. Hit 'em early, hit 'em, hard, and keep on hitting them. A 6" shell might be enough to stop a destroyer, a 5" well...
My next battleships that will be built will deserve their a new thread, this one got large enough. Some design studies would still go here.
A study on what could be done with all those nasty destroyer and cruiser flotillas during daylight. A scout cruiser with four quad 9.2" and capable of 31kts. The large size itself (similar tonnage to a battleship) warrants some TDS. Armor is AoN, to keep <9,2" shells out of the vitals.
As a note, with 5000t extra the ship can be armored against 14" shells (13" belt, barbettes and 3" deck).
As a comparison ship with 8-9x9.2" and thinner armor can be done on ~13-15000t. The 13000t one (armored against 6" only, with 8 guns) might be squeezed in a lvl 2 drydock.
Orange SC study laid down 1916
Displacement:
22,500 t light; 24,004 t standard; 25,830 t normal; 27,291 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.29 ft / 715.00 ft x 89.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
219.54 m / 217.93 m x 27.13 m x 8.53 m
Armament:
16 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (4x4 guns), 389.34lbs / 176.60kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (10x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.36" / 9.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,926 lbs / 3,141 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
16 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 540.00 ft / 164.59 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 116 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 540.00 ft / 164.59 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: - - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 127,950 shp / 95,451 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,288 tons
Complement:
1,018 - 1,324
Cost:
£3.571 million / $14.283 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 866 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 6,441 tons, 24.9 %
- Belts: 2,187 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 809 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 1,339 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,974 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Tower: 132 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 4,767 tons, 18.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,026 tons, 38.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,330 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,941 lbs / 14,488 Kg = 82.0 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (65 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 23.52 ft / 7.17 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.4 %
Waterplane Area: 42,686 Square feet or 3,966 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 769 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Well, she'd be a problem for the small fry - what if they're accompanied by something larger?
Oh, and what can you do if you exclude the TDS?
Back to the 8x15" ship. It might be the only ship class using that caliber, as the 16" gun will be developed in two years. Should I modify the design for 12x13.5" with minimal weight changes?
Rocky: the TDS-less version of the same 16x9.2" cruiser would have ~20600t light displacement, 2000t savings overall.
Quote from: P3D on October 26, 2008, 04:14:05 PM
Back to the 8x15" ship. It might be the only ship class using that caliber, as the 16" gun will be developed in two years. Should I modify the design for 12x13.5" with minimal weight changes?
15" armed ships are a problem for me too. I'd originally wanted to lay down a pair in 1914, and I know a few others have done so, but if it were me now, I'd build the 13.5" armed ship too, if you are already developing a 16" gun.
For me though, I think my future capital ships (after the just laid down BC/AC/Fast BB thing) will probably be 15"/2000 pound armed for a while. I'm not sure when I'd want to switch to something between 16" and 18" after that.
I think that if you waited and built a 16" armed ship as soon as you could, you'd probably be out ahead of everyone else. For now, a 12x13.5" armed ship would still likely be the most powerful thing afloat when it enters service.
Quote from: guinness on October 26, 2008, 05:00:57 PM
I think that if you waited and built a 16" armed ship as soon as you could, you'd probably be out ahead of everyone else.
No so certain about that, the difference in power at the muzzle between a 406mm/40 and a 38/45 are only about 3,5%. In fact, the ability to penetrate belt armour is worse for the larger gun, while its deck penetration is marginally better. No major difference in either case however.
That marginally better deck penetration is like 1500-3000 yards decreased IZ for the same armor. Being able to penetrate 3" deck armor at 13.1ky, 3.5" at 17.3 and 4" at 19.9 is something to consider (2500lbs @ 2290fps). For 15"/45 with 2000lbs shell the corresponding values are 15.8, 20 and 22.8.
I have to make the penetration tables for the different 15"+ guns - I will do that for the next generation of shells.
Quote from: P3D on October 26, 2008, 11:29:02 PM
That marginally better deck penetration is like 1500-3000 yards decreased IZ for the same armor. Being able to penetrate 3" deck armor at 13.1ky, 3.5" at 17.3 and 4" at 19.9 is something to consider (2500lbs @ 2290fps). For 15"/45 with 2000lbs shell the corresponding values are 15.8, 20 and 22.8.
Just do not forget to take the worse belt penetration into account when looking at IZ. Granted that at 17km the difference is only about 0,5cm.
And you got much smaller danger zone from the larger gun.
Basically I do not think the almost 20% increase in weight is motivated by the extreamly marginal increase in preformance. :)
The effect of danger zone difference is negligible for the to hit probabilities, compared to the effect of range - I made that calculation for WWII guns, and the to-hit chance difference is less than 30% (relative) for the 14"+ caliber guns of WWII. And that is the 16"/45 with superheavy shells vs. the light shells of the Bismarck. Difference compared to the Colorado (effectively same gun, lighter shells) is 11% or less.
Moreover, your argument can also be repeated for 14"/50 vs 15"/45 - i.e. marginal improvement (<0.5") in penetration for 20% larger weight.
For 2500 lbs you need 42cm, no?
Borys
Quote from: Borys on October 27, 2008, 04:03:44 AM
For 2500 lbs you need 42cm, no?
Borys
USN superheavy is 2700lbs.
2500lbs is the baseline 'heavy' shell vs. the 2100lbs light one. Equivalent weights scaled for different calibers: 1050 for 12", 1500 for 13.5" and 1650 for 14". From a /40 length gun the MV should be ~2300fps.
Quote from: P3D on October 27, 2008, 04:26:27 AM
Quote from: Borys on October 27, 2008, 04:03:44 AM
For 2500 lbs you need 42cm, no?
Borys
USN superheavy is 2700lbs.
2500lbs is the baseline 'heavy' shell vs. the 2100lbs light one. Equivalent weights scaled for different calibers: 1050 for 12", 1500 for 13.5" and 1650 for 14". From a /40 length gun the MV should be ~2300fps.
Nobody had a 2500lbs "heavy" 16" shell. Historical weights were 2050-2250 lbs. We are in 1914, not 1940.
The feasability of the Russian 2450lbs shells was suspect.
I believe that the USN superheavy needs some 25 years of advances in metallurgy.
Yes, I admit I tend to go for heavy shells - but I can downscale to the historical 1400 for my 13,5", and 1950lbs for my 15".
Borys
If I scale up the dimensions of the Habsburg (or CSA) 1500lbs 13.5" shell I get 2500lbs shell weight, so it is perfectly feasible with the tech of the day.
The 'heavy' shell weights I am using is very close to that of Russian shells for the same calibre, although slightly larger (1038, 1660, 2461lbs for 12-14-16") so the historical data supports it. You don't have to like it, that's true, but it's there.
Revisiting an earlier point:
QuoteBack to the 8x15" ship. It might be the only ship class using that caliber, as the 16" gun will be developed in two years. Should I modify the design for 12x13.5" with minimal weight changes?
I'd say yes. Easier logistics, more uniform shooting performance from your squadron, and probably cost-effective given the money involved in developing the 15" and its turret. I believe you already have a 13.5" triple in service.
As the politicians wanted two battlecruisers laid down (see Kaap Kourier), the Navy agreed on the following design. As without finished turbines the ships cannot be laid down earlier than 1916, armament and some armor will be built in advance (like main gun turrets, 750t each).
Orange Fast Battleship laid down 1916
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 36,681 t standard; 39,045 t normal; 40,936 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
772.62 ft / 770.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
235.50 m / 234.70 m x 28.35 m x 10.06 m
Armament:
9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (3x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 13,132 lbs / 5,956 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
18 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.3" / 338 mm 540.00 ft / 164.59 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
50.00 ft / 15.24 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 540.00 ft / 164.59 m 40.00 ft / 12.19 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 5.00" / 127 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 164,382 shp / 122,629 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,256 tons
Complement:
1,388 - 1,805
Cost:
£5.664 million / $22.655 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,641 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 13,413 tons, 34.4 %
- Belts: 5,470 tons, 14.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,598 tons, 4.1 %
- Armament: 2,700 tons, 6.9 %
- Armour Deck: 3,323 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 322 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 6,125 tons, 15.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,321 tons, 34.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,045 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
45,138 lbs / 20,474 Kg = 36.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.578
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.28 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (66 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 21.76 ft / 6.63 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.9 %
Waterplane Area: 51,320 Square feet or 4,768 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 860 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.17
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Are the torpedoes considered necessary on a capital ship of this size?
She certainly sets the benchmark for the type.
The ship will get cruiser instead of ship-of-the-line designation, and expected to conduct missions alone or leading other frigates. In the former case, the torpedoes will come handy, as they'd sink enemy ships faster than shells.
An interesting difference on doctrine there. To me, something this big operating independently would generally use it's big guns against anything big enough to hurt it, and it's secondary armament against anything not.
I can see a torpedo as useful for dispatching a wounded opponent, or in a close range, poor visibility action, but that's about it. But I guess if you really wanted to be able to sink a merchantman and make a very quick getaway, a torpedo is probably a good choice. In that case, one would probably need less tubes, and more reloads.
All that said, this is an interesting ship. Well armored against similarly armed opponents and fast, but maybe underarmed for it's displacement. It would certainly need to be able to run from the coming generation of 15" armed BC/Fast BBs.
Quote from: guinness on November 20, 2008, 12:34:30 PM
An interesting difference on doctrine there. To me, something this big operating independently would generally use it's big guns against anything big enough to hurt it, and it's secondary armament against anything not.
I can see a torpedo as useful for dispatching a wounded opponent, or in a close range, poor visibility action, but that's about it. But I guess if you really wanted to be able to sink a merchantman and make a very quick getaway, a torpedo is probably a good choice. In that case, one would probably need less tubes, and more reloads.
All that said, this is an interesting ship. Well armored against similarly armed opponents and fast, but maybe underarmed for it's displacement. It would certainly need to be able to run from the coming generation of 15" armed BC/Fast BBs.
The number of torpedoes is the total on board, not TTs.
This is the ship that can be built with the minimal amount of delay. If I used 15" guns, a ship with 4T2 would displace 40,000t.
Quote from: P3D on November 20, 2008, 01:09:51 PM
The number of torpedoes is the total on board, not TTs.
Ok, so that's how that works. I'd been wondering about that.
While on the subject of the murky inner workings of SS2, what's the deal with bunkerage? When you edit in SS2, you end up with one value on the "engines" tab for the bunkerage, but then the report has another which is roughly 55% more. Is the range in the report that for the full load capacity it's reporting, or that for the "Bunker" on the engines tab (which I'm guessing is the load at either standard or normal displacement)?
The one in the weight breakdown is for normal displacement.
Certinly puts a crimp in my next planed class....
Keep cool, I do not want to invade Australia. :P
Quote from: P3D on November 20, 2008, 09:35:42 PM
Keep cool, I do not want to invade Australia. :P
nah but by pure existance a 31 knot BC makes me rethink my 29 knot raiders ;D
I could slow the ship down to 29kts on 31000t.
Had to do some tweaking with freeboard and lengthen the ship to have adequate underwater armor coverage. Get rid of one of the twin gun mounts (fore one at B position superfiring, aft one between X position superfiring V and Y turret). Reduced displacement a bit.
Main belt inclined at 10*. 2" torpedo bulkhead goes up to main deck.
250t FC, 25t W/T, 50t 'radar', 25t for torpedoes, 50t crew comfort, 100t weight reserve (so light displacement is 34600t).
Displacement:
34,700 t light; 36,357 t standard; 38,722 t normal; 40,614 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
792.62 ft / 790.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
241.59 m / 240.79 m x 28.35 m x 10.06 m
Armament:
9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,916 lbs / 5,858 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
24 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
60.00 ft / 18.29 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 40.00 ft / 12.19 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 5.00" / 127 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 160,227 shp / 119,530 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,256 tons
Complement:
1,379 - 1,794
Cost:
£5.574 million / $22.296 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,614 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 13,442 tons, 34.7 %
- Belts: 5,508 tons, 14.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,628 tons, 4.2 %
- Armament: 2,613 tons, 6.7 %
- Armour Deck: 3,348 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Tower: 345 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 5,970 tons, 15.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,173 tons, 34.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,022 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44,196 lbs / 20,047 Kg = 35.9 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.559
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.49 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (61 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 20.44 ft / 6.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.3 %
Waterplane Area: 51,708 Square feet or 4,804 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 851 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.06
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Are you content with her freeboard aft?
I didn't realize the design had all of the main battery at the main deck level; I just assumed one was superfiring. Glad I caught that.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 21, 2008, 08:03:32 AM
Are you content with her freeboard aft?
I didn't realize the design had all of the main battery at the main deck level; I just assumed one was superfiring. Glad I caught that.
It gives me 1.00 seakeeping, and 1.2 when the ship slows down to 29kts. As the apparent consensus was to ignore it, 15' is high enough for me.
The weight increase for going 2T4x15" is like 1000t for each superfiring turret. This ship is a lengthened version of my 23kts battleships which does not have superfiring.
The new Orange cruiser/fast battleship to be laid down in 1916.
Speed decreased to 29kts, and 6" secondaries replaced by 5" ones.
Increasing draught to 33' would save like 500t.
A-XY with 5" mounts in B and Q position superfiring.
Orange Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
30,000 t light; 31,501 t standard; 33,640 t normal; 35,351 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
712.62 ft / 710.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
217.21 m / 216.41 m x 28.35 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.00lbs / 557.92kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,186 lbs / 5,527 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
24 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 469.00 ft / 142.95 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 185.00 ft / 56.39 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
56.00 ft / 17.07 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 469.00 ft / 142.95 m 41.00 ft / 12.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 120,886 shp / 90,181 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,850 tons
Complement:
1,241 - 1,614
Cost:
£4.844 million / $19.376 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,523 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 11,766 tons, 35.0 %
- Belts: 4,384 tons, 13.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,423 tons, 4.2 %
- Armament: 2,535 tons, 7.5 %
- Armour Deck: 3,111 tons, 9.2 %
- Conning Tower: 314 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,504 tons, 13.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,776 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,640 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 430 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,093 lbs / 18,640 Kg = 33.4 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.594
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.5 %
Waterplane Area: 48,040 Square feet or 4,463 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 844 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.17
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Impressive - a lot of torpedoes, though.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on January 08, 2009, 07:25:32 PM
Impressive - a lot of torpedoes, though.
im with rock, HOLY HELL Thats alot of torpedos... wouldnt a few TBs be a more eficiant method of delivery
Left it there from a previous design, it does not really affect anything. I need some fishes to finish ships that were shot to pieces but still afloat when no smaller ships are available - 8TTs (4x2) with two reloads is not that much - and the ship does not have to be loaded full with torpedoes.
Quote from: P3D on January 08, 2009, 07:08:58 PM
24 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Quote from: P3D on January 08, 2009, 08:27:44 PM
Left it there from a previous design, it does not really affect anything. I need some fishes to finish ships that were shot to pieces but still afloat when no smaller ships are available - 8TTs (4x2) with two reloads is not that much - and the ship does not have to be loaded full with torpedoes.
now corect me if im right, but isnt 24 three times eight? Granted it dosnt realy matter, but might help out your above decks space, as you are curently saying it has 24 launchers located above decks. the better way would be to say ok it has 8 tubes and acount for the reloads in misc weight.
Quite nice fast battleship.
Even though I don't like ships with six guns.
Would it be possible to cut back on Belt - to 12,5-13", and Turret Face 14", and manage one more MG turret?
Borys
Quote from: Borys on January 09, 2009, 10:05:24 AM
Quite nice fast battleship.
Even though I don't like ships with six guns.
Would it be possible to cut back on Belt - to 12,5-13", and Turret Face 14", and manage one more MG turret?
Borys
What six main guns? I have 9.
Sorry, I meant three turrets :)
Borys
Would cost further 4700t. 4th turret has to be superfiring to have enough deck space for the secondaries, and that needs 102' beam for 1.10 stability.
Orange Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
34,700 t light; 36,552 t standard; 38,876 t normal; 40,735 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
719.20 ft / 714.00 ft x 102.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
219.21 m / 217.63 m x 31.09 m x 10.06 m
Armament:
12 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 15,878 lbs / 7,202 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
12 - 21.0" / 533mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 471.00 ft / 143.56 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 189.00 ft / 57.61 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
54.00 ft / 16.46 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 471.00 ft / 143.56 m 41.00 ft / 12.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 131,700 shp / 98,248 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,183 tons
Complement:
1,383 - 1,799
Cost:
£5.840 million / $23.359 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,985 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 13,057 tons, 33.6 %
- Belts: 4,474 tons, 11.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,429 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 3,466 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 3,341 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Tower: 346 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,907 tons, 12.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,301 tons, 36.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,176 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
45,168 lbs / 20,488 Kg = 36.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 6.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.566
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.72 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.50 ft / 8.99 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (55 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 21.76 ft / 6.63 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.4 %
Waterplane Area: 51,602 Square feet or 4,794 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 954 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.35
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Speed 28 knots?
2x3, 2x2 superfiring?
But nevertheless, as she is at 35K tonnes, she's a powerful, Fast Battleship.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on January 09, 2009, 01:43:24 PMSpeed 28 knots?
2x3, 2x2 superfiring?
But nevertheless, as she is at 35K tonnes, she's a powerful, Fast Battleship.
Borys
There's no Orange ship with the speed of 28kts. OTOH there is a lot with 28.5-29kts (6 cruisers 2 frigates and a few dozen destroyers).
Orange has adequate experience with the tree-turret-arrangement, so fire control/gunnery issues should be already figured out (this would be the 7th such ship laid down).
The 10-gun version would be only 1000t lighter - or 3000t heavier than the 9-gun one. But let's put some more stuff on the 12-gunned version:
Orange Cruiser with even more armor laid down 1916
Displacement:
36,200 t light; 38,084 t standard; 40,468 t normal; 42,375 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
719.29 ft / 714.00 ft x 104.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
219.24 m / 217.63 m x 31.70 m x 10.06 m
Armament:
12 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 15,878 lbs / 7,202 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 462.00 ft / 140.82 m 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 189.00 ft / 57.61 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
63.00 ft / 19.20 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 462.00 ft / 140.82 m 41.00 ft / 12.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 136,133 shp / 101,555 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,290 tons
Complement:
1,426 - 1,854
Cost:
£5.963 million / $23.854 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,985 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 14,017 tons, 34.6 %
- Belts: 4,558 tons, 11.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,402 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 3,740 tons, 9.2 %
- Armour Deck: 3,937 tons, 9.7 %
- Conning Tower: 381 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 5,072 tons, 12.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,676 tons, 36.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,268 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
48,402 lbs / 21,955 Kg = 39.3 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 7.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.578
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.87 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.72 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (59 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 22.12 ft / 6.74 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.7 %
Waterplane Area: 53,203 Square feet or 4,943 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 196 lbs/sq ft or 957 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.36
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Increased draught to 33' (which is about as far as I would go on my 16" ships) and extending the end belt, I could squeeze the ship into 29500t. No end belt (pure AoN) would allow a 28500t ship - but as 6-10" equipped ships are possible adversaries that might not be the best idea.
AoN version of the smaller 12-gunned cruiser is 33600t.
Orange Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
29,500 t light; 30,990 t standard; 33,090 t normal; 34,770 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
704.11 ft / 699.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
214.61 m / 213.06 m x 28.35 m x 10.06 m
Armament:
9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,188 lbs / 5,528 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 462.00 ft / 140.82 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 235.00 ft / 71.63 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
2.00 ft / 0.61 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 462.00 ft / 140.82 m 41.00 ft / 12.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 117,606 shp / 87,734 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,780 tons
Complement:
1,226 - 1,594
Cost:
£4.787 million / $19.150 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,523 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 11,620 tons, 35.1 %
- Belts: 4,472 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,402 tons, 4.2 %
- Armament: 2,525 tons, 7.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,910 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 311 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,382 tons, 13.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,536 tons, 34.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,590 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 439 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37,974 lbs / 17,225 Kg = 30.9 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (44 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 19.92 ft / 6.07 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.5 %
Waterplane Area: 44,940 Square feet or 4,175 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 858 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Some additional tweaking. 6" secondaries but only 12 guns. Armor reduced: deck shaved down to 3", belt 12" inclined, so protection level is similar to the battleline (13" + 2" armored bulkhead, 2.5"-3" deck).
Orange Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
28,600 t light; 30,093 t standard; 32,152 t normal; 33,799 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
692.71 ft / 690.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
211.14 m / 210.31 m x 28.35 m x 10.06 m
Armament:
9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.00lbs / 557.92kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
16 - 0.36" / 9.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,482 lbs / 5,662 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.2" / 310 mm 469.00 ft / 142.95 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 221.00 ft / 67.36 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 469.00 ft / 142.95 m 41.00 ft / 12.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 115,881 shp / 86,447 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,706 tons
Complement:
1,199 - 1,560
Cost:
£4.772 million / $19.088 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,561 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 10,841 tons, 33.7 %
- Belts: 4,138 tons, 12.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,423 tons, 4.4 %
- Armament: 2,533 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,443 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Tower: 305 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,317 tons, 13.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,521 tons, 35.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,552 tons, 11.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 360 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36,235 lbs / 16,436 Kg = 29.5 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.531
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (45 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.16 ft / 6.14 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.4 %
Waterplane Area: 44,012 Square feet or 4,089 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 871 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
A 28K cruiser.... I tought I was overdoing with my Demarce IV's.
Well, cruiser in Orange nomenclature, others might say battlecruiser or fast battleship.
Quote from: P3D on February 05, 2009, 12:59:54 AM
Well, cruiser in Orange nomenclature, others might say battlecruiser or fast battleship.
And Others may say "Arms race".
This will be the first Orange "fast battleship". So joining late to whatever race is.
Was thinking more along the "DKB-OR" past issues. I've never really been clear on which one, or if it was the Swiss, that started the whole 23kt Battleline thing..and now you're planning a 29kt BB...time to get back to SS for me...
The 23kts battleline was 'forced' by the DKB - S&G were ~24kts and the first published KWII study (by Swamphen) had the speed of 23.something knots. Then as Orange I had to decide whether to give the DKB 3kts battleline speed advantage (2 existing BBs of 20kts) or go for 23kts - about the maximum by the engines of the day for the armament in question. That speed was judged adequate for the first generation of BCs (of 24-25kts speed), and I could not get an adequately armored ship capable of 27kts with 80,000SHP. It was on the borderline, but I decided to expand the battleline instead.
Why 29kts? Orange has several ships around this speed, and with the plethora of 27-29kts cruisers/destroyers around the IO should not go below it IMHO. I also had a 31kts design but the SHP issue was at last fixed, so I limited speed at 29kts.
I rate Warrior as an armored cruiser, so it's just a matter of nomenclature.
The design looks good in general, but the number of AA machine guns seems excessive to me.
Why the AA guns in the first place? What have aircraft done that would merit the guns? Only zeppelins have proved useful and those can't be shot down by 1" guns.
Interesting question...
The current gen of CSA Capital Ships (the Enterprises) carry 6x2x1" MGs. This is the standard CSA twin mount, which I imagine being capable of up to 45 degree elevation. Originally, this weapon was useful mostly against small surface craft, but the Confederates surely located them to be useful in AA work as well, in both the Enterprises and the Chattanooga class cruisers.
Additionally, we've flirted with a 1 pounder, and then quickly moved on to a 2 pounder. I've intended to do a little news post about that. This would be roughly equivalent to the RN's Mark II (HA). Essentially, we were looking for something that would be better at shooting holes in GC's airships, if necessary, while still having some use against fixed wing aircraft, and on smaller ships, small surface targets. Enterprise carries 6 single mountings of these.
The next CSA Capital Ships are being designed with space reserved for a new HA 3" mounting, though the gun will not yet exist when they are laid down. I'd expect this gun to hit the scene in 1918 or so. Still, in mounting a pair of these, they'll lose a pair of the 2 pounders.
So some hindsightedness here? Maybe. I still wouldn't really consider this an adequate AA battery against any sort of massed attack. Mostly the AA guns have made it in though as I've wanted something to fill up some space in illustrations. I suspect that the OR's AA loadouts could be an indirect response to the direction followed by the CSA or others.
I have similar thoughts. To stop any massed attack I need more than one MG every 10m or so per side.
So I don't know myself whatever is justified as an AA. Most probably the Italians would use their planes for more than reconnaissance in any future conflict.
BTW large AA weaponry also means significantly increased manning requirements, which might make some navies think about it twice.
What massed attacks? There's only been ONE attack by an airplane on a ship, and it failed miserably.
Apparently using all available assets to overwhelm enemy defenses is alien to New Zion.
At this point, if one's navy believes that aircraft can hurt capital ships and will attack in large numbers and won't be scared off by a couple of anti-balloon guns shooting in their general direction, then a large AA battery is reasonable. But I think it's a very progressive attitude not yet justified by sim-reality.
I guess I can cut the light AA to half, the 3"s are "dual-purpose" - i.e. anti-TB/anti-baloon.
We can have DP guns?
According to SS, this is FAR too early for those.
Quote from: Carthaginian on February 08, 2009, 05:35:47 PM
We can have DP guns?
According to SS, this is FAR too early for those.
Depending on how one define DP. Even low angle guns can shoot at aircrafts at low level but it is not a DP gun for that, and a AA gun can shoot at targets on the surface, it is after all just a question of depressing the gun.
Korpen, you're an artillery man. Imagine loading a LA gun with the breach almost to the deck. Not to think about the recoil.
You're totaly right that it's just a matter of depressing/elevating the gun.
To put it simple
The AA tech is in discussion, but Springsharp doesn't accept DP guns before a certain date.
In the the end, it's Springsharp dat dictates most of the naval matters. Even if it isn't accurate in certain respects, to free or to restricted where OTL desings surpass those constraints.
It is not 'just a question of elevation'- you as an artilleryman know that just because a 155mm can elevate to 60 degrees or so, it is quite useless against a target without the correct sighting equipment and ammunition. My Grandfather- an artilleryman as well- made this abundantly clear to me. The HA mount will be highly unsuccessful in attempting to engage a surface target- it would be a tactic reserved for desperate straits and poorly effective.
The biggest reason AA mounts weren't much good against surface targets was trunnion height. If you could elevate a pedestal mounted weapon high enough for AA use, it's breech would be way off the deck when shooting at low elevations, making the gun hard to work. The other main difference with AA mounts was needing to train them faster. A local AA "sight" in almost all cases was a plain old ring site, which could be mounted alongside a more sophisticated surface sight easily.
So, to accommodate both surface and AA fire, designers had to turn to either gun wells, which presented their own problems, or mounts incorporating raised platforms for their crews, ala the famed US base ring mountings. The main drawback of these was they were heavier and taller.
All that said, a 3" mount isn't all that big, and the ammunition isn't all that difficult to handle. I'm confident that as long as it doesn't have extreme elevation capability (say 45 degrees or so), that it could make a useful anti-surface weapon and still at least scare the crew of a balloon.
Or to put it all more succinctly: I don't think we need to get too excited about trying to legislate away our navies trying to point the occasional 3" gun at an air target.
Quote from: guinness on February 08, 2009, 05:57:41 PM
Or to put it all more succinctly: I don't think we need to get too excited about trying to legislate away our navies trying to point the occasional 3" gun at an air target.
Unfortunately, as with so many other things, without limits on the small the great also seem to be abused.
What a futuristic Idea!
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNAust_27-50_Skoda.htm
Some more early 'DP' mounts - i.e. normal AA guns, capable of depressing 10* below horizontal. I see no reason why these guns could not have been used in ant-surface role, especially as this category was laid individually, not under the central director control. The later DP mounts are significantly different beasts. Internal hoists for 4-5" ammo, fuse setting machines and central director controls.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3-50_mk2.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3-50_mk10-22.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_3-40_mk1.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_3-45_mk1.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc13.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_3-30_Lender.htm
20° angle...
I was envisioning guns with a 45-80° angle.
In other words, these are the guns I had in mind for a fairly standard 3" range. usable for potshots at airships
Of course the 90° version is a funny one. It seems the people making springsharp overlooked that exact type of gun and only allow a 1910 AA version. For Dual purpose you need to wait untill 1920.
Like somebody before already pointed out, these AA/AB (anit baloon) guns are all in the 2,75"-3,5" range.
So I suggest cut-off calibre at 90mm (for the metrically minded).
Borys
The changed AA tech should conform to this...
Quote from: Borys on February 09, 2009, 02:29:35 AM
Like somebody before already pointed out, these AA/AB (anit baloon) guns are all in the 2,75"-3,5" range.
So I suggest cut-off calibre at 90mm (for the metrically minded).
Borys
Larger guns then that was used as AA guns as well, often the same guns as used in LA mounts.
Better to say no gun shields on over 9cm guns, as that seems to have been extremely rare on larger AA guns, at least until the 30s.
Quote from: P3D on February 08, 2009, 11:15:04 PM
What a futuristic Idea!
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNAust_27-50_Skoda.htm
Well, given the amount of swing, I'd hate to be the poor SOB with the backbreaking job of loading her at high angles (GAWD, there couldn't be more than 16" to spare between the breech and deck at max) but it could indeed directed at both types of targets if the loader was both a former gymnast and very dedicated to his current job.
I agree that most of the suggestions for a refined AA tech table would cover this situation. I also like the 'no shields' idea, Korpen, as that would really make tese guns of limited value in a 'hot' environment.
I think if there is a change to the AA rule, it should deal with the number of guns and not type or size. Like I've said before, there is not going to be any massed aircraft raids on large ships for at least another 20 years. A capital ship in range of land based aircraft is in range of MTBs, coastal submarines, and defensive minefields, all better options than planes dropping 30lb dynamite sticks. A torpedo bomber dropping a single light torpedo at 70 knots is hardly better than a MTB dropping four larger torpedoes at 35 knots.
I don't want to regulate AA gun numbers any more than I want to regulate secondary gun numbers or torpedo numbers or depth charge numbers.
Orange has two semi-arcadia battleships, 6x12" 20kts but no fire control. The first finished 1906, it is time to refurbish them after 10 years of uneventful service.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=186.0
Decided to put the two refurbishment options up to Discussion. Which is the better option?
The first is a minimal one. Installing oil burners in the boilers, a fire control system on the cost of reduced oil bunkerage. Add 8x1" AA guns. Range would be the same as with coal firing, but overall relatively short. 4000@12). Cost is $0.5 and 0.25BP (FC), $2.8 (refurbishment), $0.25 and 0.25 BP (assorted equipment and structural strengthening). Total $3.55 and 0.5BP.
Range with 100% fuel oil is 4000@12, 90% coal firing is kept in the sim below to get correct weights.
Second is the more extensive modification. Besides the FC and AAA, the ship gets a new oil-firing powerplant to get the 23kts speed of the battleline and some misc.weight. Additional cost is $2.6 and 1.3BP for the engine, $0.1 and 0.1BP for the additional functional misc. weight (rest is reserve), and the ship also gets nice cruising range. Cost is $6.25 and 1.9BP.
Economy version:
Whitwatersrand Battleship, laid down 1905, refurbished 1917
Displacement:
14,030 t light; 14,719 t standard; 15,645 t normal; 16,385 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
490.00 ft / 490.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
149.35 m / 149.35 m x 21.34 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1905 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,538 lbs / 2,966 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Weight of broadside 6,534 lbs / 2,964 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 140.00 ft / 42.67 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
19.00 ft / 5.79 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,002 shp / 14,921 Kw = 19.92 kts
Range 4,490nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,666 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
699 - 909
Cost:
£1.408 million / $5.633 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 817 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 6,357 tons, 40.6 %
- Belts: 3,278 tons, 21.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 441 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 1,288 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,175 tons, 7.5 %
- Conning Tower: 175 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,650 tons, 10.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,886 tons, 31.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,614 tons, 10.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 320 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,788 lbs / 8,069 Kg = 20.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.37
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.614
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.59 ft / 7.19 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.69 ft / 4.78 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.9 %
Waterplane Area: 25,416 Square feet or 2,361 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 640 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.45
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The re-engined version:
Whitwatersrand Battleship, laid down 1905, refurbished 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
13,785 t light; 14,474 t standard; 15,645 t normal; 16,581 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
490.00 ft / 490.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
149.35 m / 149.35 m x 21.34 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1915 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,538 lbs / 2,966 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 140.00 ft / 42.67 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
19.00 ft / 5.79 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 331.00 ft / 100.89 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 34,982 shp / 26,096 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,107 tons
Complement:
699 - 909
Cost:
£1.351 million / $5.406 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 817 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 6,357 tons, 40.6 %
- Belts: 3,278 tons, 21.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 441 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 1,288 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,175 tons, 7.5 %
- Conning Tower: 175 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,303 tons, 8.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,957 tons, 31.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,860 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,603 lbs / 8,892 Kg = 22.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.614
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.59 ft / 7.19 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.69 ft / 4.78 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.9 %
Waterplane Area: 25,416 Square feet or 2,361 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 649 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.49
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
DKB Hat on: Which ever is easier to sink.
Sachmle Hat on: The second is Soooo worth the extra cost.
Second rebuilt to light BB is better.
With about 20 years of life to come. it's the most interresting rebuilt.
(not realy a big surprise from Jef :D ).
;)
The second option would also give me a 4-ship 12" BB-division.
Now let's see if i can find a use for the machinery...
Apparently not much.
If I use them in a sloop, I need 300t larger ship (1300t instead of 1000t) for saving 0.1BP and $0.3. So I need to build 4 sloops total with one turbine each.
Scrapping the machinery yields 0.2475BP - so final cost would be $6 and 1.65BP.
Reuse the machinery
You have 20 000SHP x 2
you could built 2 sloops with 20 000SHP or
1 cruiser with 40 000SHP perhaps more interresting.
Design nota:
- BBs Boillers are tall, so you need to have a sup deck on the freeboard level with the top of the boilers. That mean also that middle TTs & Barbettes in "Centreline grouped-centre" disposition are not possible.
Interresting Design Chalenge to do ;)
I tried to get 23kts speed with the old machinery - arguing that I'd install 8 turbines with TE propulsion, but the ship would be just damn too big, like 19000t and have only 6x12" guns.
The best option I found is to install the machinery as powerplant and connect it to the grid. The turbines are a mere 10 years old anyways and not worn out, and they would still provide 30MW of electricity. They weight twice as much as 1916 machinery, so the 1650t of machinery of one ship would be (roughly) the equivalent of $1.65 investment in IC. Either in Orange or donated to a friendly small nation (Madagascar/Oman).
QuoteI tried to get 23kts speed with the old machinery - arguing that I'd install 8 turbines with TE propulsion, but the ship would be just damn too big, like 19000t and have only 6x12" guns.
You install 8 turbines ... TE propulsion...
You have actualy:
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,002 shp / 14,921 Kw = 19.92 kts
Range 4,490nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,666 tons (90% coal)
IMO, change just the boilers to 1916 model
You have 4 turbines/4 shafts, you could have 4 or 8 1916 boilers .
It is not too difficult to increase the speed from 19.9 to 23kts
with about 40 000SHP.
Caution, if you increase the speed to 23kts, the Seaboat quality (1.37) decrease
Increase the length & perhaps the stem & forecastle by 0.5 deck.
Autofagasta rebuilt is:
3T2x340 - 23kts - 16200t
Whitwatersrand rebuilt is:
3T2x305 - 23kts - 19000t ...hmmm... heavy ???
Did you made the SS
;)
New boilers are not enough as the turbines are really first-generation ones, 20% maybe but not doubling the power.
Lengthening the ship would be too expensive for marginal increase of combat capability. The ship is fine with 1.00+ seakeeping, granted a wet boat but having a higher bow would require rebuild instead of reconstruction IMO.
My refit is <14,000t light (see first post), the19,000t figure is for reusing the old machinery.
Just don't worth it, the machinery is so much larger that savings from reusing even the turbines only are lost in the need for a heavier hull. Year 1916 engines have twice the SHP/ton, cheaper to build the ship with new engines.
OK, I checked it, as an exercise. New oil-fired boilers, 8 old turbines driving dynamos for TE (throw in some misc weight for that). With 1908 engines (to get the appropriate engine weight) I could get 2T3x13.5" on 18800t and adequate-ish armor that could do 23kts, and I could reuse 1.6BP worth of turbines.
But rather spend 10BP more on a ship with 16" guns, as I'd have four light battleships with the refits.