Glorious French Sloops

[Borys]

http://www.kuk-kriegsmarine.at/bilder/ptatraklassekopie.jpg

83,5x7,8x3,2
2x10cm+6x7cm+1x2TT

[P3D]

And that's 1000t normal displacement, although undergunned as all small Austrian ships (unlike the overgunned BBs). I'd check out UK and US destroyers on Wikipedia.

[Borys]

The minimally smaller GTB 1913 (oil fring!) had 3x88 and 2x2 TT, 2x1TT

the Tatra was coal firing and capable of 32 knots (I wonder for how long .. )

[Carthaginian]

the Tatra was coal firing and capable of 32 knots (I wonder for how long .. )

If I was shoveling the coal... probably not long. ;)

[maddox]

Drawing such a vessel..; I barely can resuffle things on a battleship in paint.

if somebody else could supplement me (unfortunatly that Canis D still suffers from bad eyesight), I can be gratefull.

And yes, I realise that I like many guns on my Gloriously decadent French ships. And yes, that superfiring for destroyers and smaller are not in my technological grasp (not that anyone commented on that)

So, the new idea.
The 3 105's are kept, nicely distributed.
The 2 casemate mounted 70mm guns are kept, those are in the forcastle, smack in the largest space available for the sailors.
Removed the 2 centre side 70mm guns
4 25mm machine guns in nests on a small deckhouse what is build around one of the smokestacks.

The 2 torpedo tubes are just behind the bridge/smokestack and before the deckhouse around the second smokestack(with the machineguns), then the 105 Q gun , followed by a smokestack.
Further aft you have again 2 torpedo tubes and the last 105 gun.


                             70                   t                            t
                                                      25      25
                        105   bridgestack      stack   105  stack     105
                                                      25      25
                             70                   t                            t

Improbable, France Destroyer laid down 1907

Displacement:
   499 t light; 522 t standard; 574 t normal; 615 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   242,78 ft / 229,66 ft x 22,97 ft x 8,20 ft (normal load)
   74,00 m / 70,00 m x 7,00 m  x 2,50 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on centreline, all forward
     2 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 129 lbs / 58 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7.852 shp / 5.858 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 2.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 92 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   58 - 76

Cost:
   £0,069 million / $0,275 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 2,8%
   Machinery: 270 tons, 47,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 193 tons, 33,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 74 tons, 13,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     199 lbs / 90 Kg = 5,6 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,23
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 86 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,72

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,464
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,77 ft / 3,89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73,2%
   Waterplane Area: 3.404 Square feet or 316 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 51%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 112 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,51
      - Longitudinal: 4,51
      - Overall: 0,63
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Carthaginian]

I'll give it a whirl... if you don't mind. :) My skills are limited, but it'll give an idea of how it looks.

[Korpen]

A very basic scetch, the large scale i use is not very good for small ships, so the 25mm guns are not shown. And i placed the 70mm guns in deck mounts rather then casmettes.

[maddox]

A French patrol vessel, with additional options.

Barbelé, French sloop laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   1.000 t light; 1.032 t standard; 1.371 t normal; 1.643 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   298,56 ft / 295,28 ft x 39,37 ft x 9,45 ft (normal load)
   91,00 m / 90,00 m x 12,00 m  x 2,88 m

Armament:
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 44 lbs / 20 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180
   1 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5.037 shp / 3.758 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 611 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   112 - 146

Cost:
   £0,075 million / $0,299 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 0,4%
   Armour: 4 tons, 0,3%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0,3%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 252 tons, 18,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 498 tons, 36,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 372 tons, 27,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 240 tons, 17,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2.432 lbs / 1.103 Kg = 232,4 x 2,8 " / 70 mm shells or 0,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,34
   Metacentric height 2,1 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 11,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,45

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,437
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   6,56 ft / 2,00 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m before break)
      - Stern:      6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,02 ft / 3,36 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132,3%
   Waterplane Area: 7.339 Square feet or 682 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 173%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 47 lbs/sq ft or 230 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,48
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

150 mines, mine sweeping or troop transport capacity for up to 100 soldiers.
A short ranged marconi and a bit of comfort increasing measures make from these nifty ships a potential posting to be wanted.

The bow tube can be a nasty surprise for the moment an attacker daring to come in range.

[The Rock Doctor]

Like I asked about Korpen's minesweeper - is the freeboard representing a continuously sloping main deck?

I'm coming round to the notion that any ship fitted for multiple jobs like minesweeping, minelaying, and troop transport ought to be fitted with the equipment necessary for all of the jobs at the same time.  This might be the case here, but you've not indicated the allocation of the miscellaneous weight.

[maddox]

The mine equipment stays, but for trooptransport the mines stay home, as the space, and weight are needed to put the soldiers in.

Hm, what about that decadence, even French mines have airco...

[maddox]

France has bought 25 sloops of the Fleurus II type from the UKN ,back in 1902. But now, after 5 years of operating them, the disadvantages are becoming clear.
The weak hull gets damaged easely, the cramped crew quarters and enginering spaces make these ships less than liked assignments.
On paper and during trials these ships looked great, good armament, good speed and good range. But what good is speed if every serious wave can buckle a hull plate, what is good armament if every hit recieved cripples the ship and what good is range if the crew is suffering cabin fever after a few days?

The Nverse 2 -Frenchified- version

Fleurus II, France sloop laid down 1903 (Engine 1908)

Displacement:
   1.107 t light; 1.150 t standard; 1.513 t normal; 1.804 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   311,68 ft / 311,68 ft x 32,81 ft x 11,48 ft (normal load)
   95,00 m / 95,00 m x 10,00 m  x 3,50 m

Armament:
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1903 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 212 lbs / 96 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 12.541 shp / 9.356 Kw = 25,06 kts
   Range 4.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 654 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   120 - 157

Cost:
   £0,154 million / $0,615 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 27 tons, 1,8%
   Machinery: 663 tons, 43,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 397 tons, 26,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 406 tons, 26,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 1,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     678 lbs / 307 Kg = 8,1 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,68
   Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 9,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,15
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,54

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,451
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Stern:      12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,94 ft / 3,95 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 156,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76,9%
   Waterplane Area: 6.221 Square feet or 578 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 164 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,63
      - Longitudinal: 1,65
      - Overall: 0,69
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

A proposal from the naval yards at Tricomalee

Janking out 1 boiler, reducing available HP, reducing range and cruise speed to reduce hull load.
The same for torpedos and guns. Removing 2 70mm QF guns and 4 25mm machine guns, 2 tubes and all the spare torpedos, installing a newer Marconi unit.
These alterations would yield a real sloop, not a Destroyer on steroids.

Fleurus II, refit 1909, France sloop laid down 1903 (Engine 1908)

Displacement:
   1.278 t light; 1.320 t standard; 1.513 t normal; 1.667 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   311,68 ft / 311,68 ft x 32,81 ft x 11,48 ft (normal load)
   95,00 m / 95,00 m x 10,00 m  x 3,50 m

Armament:
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1903 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 207 lbs / 94 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 12.417 shp / 9.263 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 347 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   120 - 157

Cost:
   £0,158 million / $0,633 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 24 tons, 1,6%
   Machinery: 670 tons, 44,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 575 tons, 38,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 235 tons, 15,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 0,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     925 lbs / 419 Kg = 11,0 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,47
   Metacentric height 1,8 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 10,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,16
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,45

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,451
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Stern:      12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,94 ft / 3,95 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 155,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91,7%
   Waterplane Area: 6.221 Square feet or 578 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 49 lbs/sq ft or 237 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,91
      - Longitudinal: 2,39
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Much better. Although I don't see any decrease in HP.
Maybe part of the problem is having 5,5" guns? Maybe cut back to one such weapon?

Borys

[P3D]

Machinery weight should the same, a boiler is more than 100SHP, but it is marginal so does not matter. The rebuild is essentially removing all the above-mentioned stuff, and reinforcing the hull on the expense of coal capacity.
The cost of such rebuild, combined with an early refit would be 0.2BP and $1.7.

I'd also increase ammo capacity, there's enough space for a bit more.

[maddox]

A refit of .2 Bp, isn't that a bit excessive?
All France does is remove stuff.

For a .2 BP refit France could use the rules and fit in oil firing, that would give me no reduction in speed or armament.

[P3D]

The difference between the light displacements is 171t. That steel comes from somewhere - all that extra tons go into the hull, see weight breakdown. Make it 0.17BP if 0.2 is too much, I just rounded up to reflect that the reinforcement is an afterthought.

My $ cost figure was completely off, make it 0.17BP and $0.20 (or $0.30 if you make a full refit).
Oil-firing would mean throwing out half of the new boilers, an additional 0.4BP and $0.8