Glorious French Sloops

[Borys]

ROTFL!

[Desertfox]

Modern day triemes? Well they are designed for the Mediterrean, and wasn't it the French who kept Galleys into the 1800s as slave ships?

[maddox]

Ok, next revision

Removed 2 of the hull mounted 70mm guns and the 2 others are placed in the forcastle

Improbable, France Destroyer laid down 1907

Displacement:
   497 t light; 522 t standard; 574 t normal; 615 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   242,78 ft / 229,66 ft x 22,97 ft x 8,20 ft (normal load)
   74,00 m / 70,00 m x 7,00 m  x 2,50 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     2 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 150 lbs / 68 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7.852 shp / 5.858 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 2.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 92 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   58 - 76

Cost:
   £0,070 million / $0,281 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 19 tons, 3,3%
   Machinery: 266 tons, 46,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 192 tons, 33,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 77 tons, 13,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     193 lbs / 88 Kg = 5,5 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 86 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,71

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,464
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,77 ft / 3,89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73,2%
   Waterplane Area: 3.404 Square feet or 316 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 50%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 112 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 4,46
      - Overall: 0,62
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[P3D]

Modern day triemes? Well they are designed for the Mediterrean, and wasn't it the French who kept Galleys into the 1800s as slave ships?

Unireme, only one row of oars ;)

[Borys]

OOC
Frpm what I've been reading on the subject lately, it is more about the rows of rowers than oars.
Borys

[maddox]

So, the latest revision of the Improbable class is satisfying?

As I did review it a bit, and got the Probable.

Probable, French Destroyer laid down 1908

Displacement:
   496 t light; 521 t standard; 596 t normal; 655 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   236,22 ft / 229,66 ft x 22,31 ft x 10,17 ft (normal load)
   72,00 m / 70,00 m x 6,80 m  x 3,10 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      6 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns (3x2 guns), 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward
   Weight of broadside 146 lbs / 66 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9.129 shp / 6.810 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 134 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   59 - 78

Cost:
   £0,072 million / $0,286 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 18 tons, 3,1%
   Machinery: 278 tons, 46,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 180 tons, 30,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 100 tons, 16,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     171 lbs / 77 Kg = 4,8 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,25
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,43

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,29 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,37 ft / 5,60 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Mid (50%):      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,22 ft / 3,42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 55,3%
   Waterplane Area: 3.154 Square feet or 293 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 50%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,52
      - Longitudinal: 3,38
      - Overall: 0,62
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Desertfox]

It's looking like a destroyer now, a pretty good one at that. Compared to what Im laying down: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1018.0

If you still want the 140mm guns perhaps a version of it with one foward and rear 105s replaced with 70s.

[The Rock Doctor]

I think twin guns would be unusual at the time (and in such a slender hull).  Three single 105s and three single 47s would be a significant armament for that size ship, I think.

[maddox]

This one can take the 140's if I reduce the amount of tubes, torpedo's and the 47mm guns .

The twin 47mm's are a brainstorm, not in use yet. If they get used, it will come forward that the 47mm guns aren't powerfull enough to stop any attacker on a reasonable range, nor that they can traverse fast enough.

Probable, french gunboat laid down 1908

Displacement:
   491 t light; 521 t standard; 596 t normal; 655 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   236,22 ft / 229,66 ft x 22,31 ft x 10,17 ft (normal load)
   72,00 m / 70,00 m x 6,80 m  x 3,10 m

Armament:
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 206 lbs / 93 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9.129 shp / 6.810 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 134 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   59 - 78

Cost:
   £0,075 million / $0,299 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 24 tons, 4,0%
   Machinery: 270 tons, 45,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 183 tons, 30,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 104 tons, 17,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 2,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     172 lbs / 78 Kg = 2,1 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,35
   Metacentric height 0,9 ft / 0,3 m
   Roll period: 9,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,49

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,29 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,37 ft / 5,60 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Mid (50%):      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,22 ft / 3,42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81,6%
   Waterplane Area: 3.154 Square feet or 293 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 118 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,51
      - Longitudinal: 3,63
      - Overall: 0,62
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Carthaginian]

I'd still go with the 105's, even though I too like to put the biggest possible 'boomstick' on a ship that can be crammed aboard.

3 x 105mm
4 x   70mm
Would that fit?

[maddox]

I hear Borys already yell "Not enough Deck Space"

France has only single torpedo tubes, so the sides are already pretty much crammed with 2 tubes and 1 gun a side.

Probable, French destroyer type laid down 1908

Displacement:
   494 t light; 521 t standard; 596 t normal; 655 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   236,22 ft / 229,66 ft x 22,31 ft x 10,17 ft (normal load)
   72,00 m / 70,00 m x 6,80 m  x 3,10 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      3 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
    on centreline, evenly spread , all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 165 lbs / 75 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9.129 shp / 6.810 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 134 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   59 - 78

Cost:
   £0,073 million / $0,292 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 21 tons, 3,5%
   Machinery: 274 tons, 46,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 179 tons, 30,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 102 tons, 17,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     167 lbs / 76 Kg = 4,7 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,26
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,43

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,29 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,37 ft / 5,60 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Mid (50%):      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,22 ft / 3,42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 55,3%
   Waterplane Area: 3.154 Square feet or 293 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 50%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,51
      - Longitudinal: 3,34
      - Overall: 0,61
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Nice ship in SS, impossible in RL ... and ... not enough deck space :)
Borys

[P3D]

Get rid of either one 105mm gun and the 57mm guns, or all the smaller calibers.

[Carthaginian]

I was suggesting without the 57mm's... just the three centerline 105's and the 70's between them... but I didn't know you had the whole sides taken up with torp tubes.

[Korpen]

Make a drawing of the ship, then it will be quite clear what fits and what does not fit.