Glorious French Sloops

[maddox]

With the world going crazy on Torpedo boat Destroyers, France looked into this matter.

With 25 of the most modern sloops that almost have the same qualities as what others look for in a destroyer. The mentioned ships are the UNK build Fleurus II class.

Unfortunatly, French engineers and designers can't get the wished for speed, nor armament on a ships as small as others can. Also, the turbine engines they would love to use are rare, and the foreign suppliers have domestical restrictions.  Untill France can get domestic turbines build, VTE's are the best option.

So, a slower vessel, with about the same armament as the Fleurus II sloop, based upon the same hull is designed and the tests do promise a lot.

Fleurus III, France sloop laid down 1907

Displacement:
   1.228 t light; 1.273 t standard; 1.513 t normal; 1.705 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   311,68 ft / 311,68 ft x 32,81 ft x 11,48 ft (normal load)
   95,00 m / 95,00 m x 10,00 m  x 3,50 m

Armament:
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1902 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 243 lbs / 110 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5.140 ihp / 3.835 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 4.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 432 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   120 - 157

Cost:
   £0,148 million / $0,594 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 30 tons, 2,0%
   Machinery: 571 tons, 37,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 606 tons, 40,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 285 tons, 18,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 1,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1.197 lbs / 543 Kg = 14,3 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,36
   Metacentric height 1,6 ft / 0,5 m
   Roll period: 10,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,28
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,451
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Stern:      12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Average freeboard:   13,83 ft / 4,22 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 138,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102,1%
   Waterplane Area: 6.528 Square feet or 606 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 48 lbs/sq ft or 236 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,91
      - Longitudinal: 2,94
      - Overall: 1,03
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

These ships won't be seen alone, as they are envisioned to escort battlegroups, or as escorts for merchants.

[Borys]

4x100mm are better than 2x140m. But that's your fleet ...

[maddox]

The 140mm is also the main weapon mounted on the Fleurus II class sloops. It gives a bit of flexibility of targets engaged.

[maddox]

After Admiral Geons talk with Premier Paixhans, and the knowledge that the med fleet is losing 4 battleships, a fast answer has to be found. Building a battleship takes years. Building 10 or even 20 contre torpilleurs, even with the obsolete French technology is a lot faster and gives more flexibility in actions.
One of the designs is this.

Improbable, France Destroyer laid down 1907

Displacement:
   500 t light; 529 t standard; 581 t normal; 623 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   262,47 ft / 249,34 ft x 26,25 ft x 6,89 ft (normal load)
   80,00 m / 76,00 m x 8,00 m  x 2,10 m

Armament:
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 271 lbs / 123 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8.979 shp / 6.698 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 2.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 94 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   58 - 76

Cost:
   £0,080 million / $0,322 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 32 tons, 5,4%
   Machinery: 260 tons, 44,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 189 tons, 32,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 81 tons, 13,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     175 lbs / 80 Kg = 2,1 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,38
   Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,48

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,451
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,79 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,77 ft / 3,89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105,5%
   Waterplane Area: 4.178 Square feet or 388 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 42%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 107 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,42
      - Longitudinal: 2,93
      - Overall: 0,51
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Desertfox]

You sure you want the 0.42 Cross Section? It would be a pity to lose ships to broken backs.

[The Rock Doctor]

Quiet!

...though I'd add that ten gun installations on that hull would be cozy.

[maddox]

You 2 have valid points.  

A sleightly redone version. dropped speed with 1 kts, removed 2 deck mounted 70mm guns.

Improbable, France Destroyer laid down 1907

Displacement:
   500 t light; 523 t standard; 575 t normal; 616 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   242,78 ft / 229,66 ft x 22,97 ft x 8,20 ft (normal load)
   74,00 m / 70,00 m x 7,00 m  x 2,50 m

Armament:
     2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
     4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 250 lbs / 113 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7.868 shp / 5.869 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 2.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 92 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   58 - 76

Cost:
   £0,077 million / $0,308 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 29 tons, 5,0%
   Machinery: 252 tons, 43,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 204 tons, 35,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 75 tons, 13,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 2,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     189 lbs / 86 Kg = 2,3 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,23
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 87 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1,00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,74

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,465
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,77 ft / 3,89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73,2%
   Waterplane Area: 3.407 Square feet or 317 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 118 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 5,03
      - Overall: 0,63
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Borys]

Do I have to say what I think about those 14cm guns?

  - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1,00

A broadside, combined with a larger wave, will make the boats go turtle. 2 or 3 guns of 3/3,5 inch calibre on a boat like that is the limit.

Borys

[maddox]

But France likes its cumbersome, overpowered 140mm guns. It's becoming the workhorse of the MN.

But alas, again a valid point.   Another reworked version.

The 2 140mm guns are replaced by 3 105mm guns. Increased munition storage from 80 to 100 shells per gun.

Improbable, France Destroyer laid down 1907

Displacement:
   500 t light; 523 t standard; 575 t normal; 616 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   242,78 ft / 229,66 ft x 22,97 ft x 8,20 ft (normal load)
   74,00 m / 70,00 m x 7,00 m  x 2,50 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 171 lbs / 77 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7.868 shp / 5.869 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 2.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 92 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   58 - 76

Cost:
   £0,072 million / $0,289 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 21 tons, 3,7%
   Machinery: 263 tons, 45,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 201 tons, 35,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 74 tons, 12,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 2,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     201 lbs / 91 Kg = 5,7 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,23
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,69

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,464
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,77 ft / 3,89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73,2%
   Waterplane Area: 3.407 Square feet or 317 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 117 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,52
      - Longitudinal: 4,64
      - Overall: 0,64
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[P3D]

Destroyers usually had 150-200 shells per gun.

[Carthaginian]

Though slow, they would provide a lot of utility as 'point defense' against an enemy fleet.
Since your primary weapon for these ships is torpedoes, though, I might even drop back to several 75mm guns and try to squeeze more speed out of them.

Destroyers usually had 150-200 shells per gun.

I think he's banking on larger calibers needing less shell to tell against the target.

[Desertfox]

Me and my big mouth. :-X

Still that's a lot of guns on a small ships and you have torpedoes to worry about too. I can't belive Borys didn't say 'not enough deck space'! The closest I can find where the Siamese Gunboats with 2x6", 4x3" on a similar size boat. But they where 15 knoters and had no torpedoes.

How about a single 140mm foward, and say 2 70mm back and 2 amidship?

[maddox]

Ok, next incarnation

150 shells
4 torpedo's in the tubes, 4 reloads and a small marconi.

Improbable, France Destroyer laid down 1907

Displacement:
   499 t light; 527 t standard; 578 t normal; 620 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   242,78 ft / 229,66 ft x 22,97 ft x 8,20 ft (normal load)
   74,00 m / 70,00 m x 7,00 m  x 2,50 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 171 lbs / 77 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7.914 shp / 5.904 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 2.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 93 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   58 - 76

Cost:
   £0,072 million / $0,289 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 21 tons, 3,7%
   Machinery: 264 tons, 45,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 194 tons, 33,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 79 tons, 13,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     191 lbs / 87 Kg = 5,4 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,69

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,468
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,77 ft / 3,89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73,4%
   Waterplane Area: 3.416 Square feet or 317 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 112 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 4,43
      - Overall: 0,62
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Borys]

Ahoj!
To make Desertfox's shattered world come back together ... may I say "not enough deck space"?
:)
And - with an average freeboard of 3,8m how exactly do you plan to install "hull casemettes"? One metre above the waterline? Or will you be port-bound at sea states above 2? or 3 - if you feel wantom?

Borys

[P3D]

My guess those lower casemate 70mm guns have very long tubes, and function as oars for auxiliary propulsion- therefore they are placed low.