Toying around with an idea

[khymerion]

As most warships seems to be built around the concept of broadside weights and thus, battle lines are built along the idea from ancient days of great ships meeting across from each other but for a small nation with an equally small navy can't compete in a line verse line exchange.  Thus, wanting to spread disorder and chaos in tradition lines by a single unit, a radical idea came across the ship designers of the Confederation, a battle line breacher.   Meant to pick out the center of a line, the ship would drive as fast as possible for the center, understandably weathering wiltering fire.  The reinforced prow, brought back with the submerged torpedo tubes to add hell with the near ramming (or heck, if possible, actually try for a glancing ramming hit across the bow or stern of a ship) maneuver, would hopefully absorb the attack.

Needless to say, only the most hearty and fearless men with no allusions of the future would be asked to crew such a ship.   But, since I was toying with the idea... like the high speed freighter...  wouldn't mind an oppinion or two or six.  Oh, by the way, the bridge is set far back much like Rodney and Nelson were... and having to work within the constraints of the limited technology and gun sizes available or will soon be available to the Confederation.

Forgive the very poor MS Paint side profile of the ship... it was the only thing I could do with what little time I had to help visualize the ship.   Any advice to refine or improve it would be greatly appreciated... heck, it it is just junk, I will also be not insulted to hear those oppinions.

BCS Mane (Lunar), Baltic Confederation Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t251/Khymerion/Lunar.jpg

Displacement:
   28,780 t light; 30,051 t standard; 32,500 t normal; 34,460 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720.00 ft / 720.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   219.46 m / 219.46 m x 27.43 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      2 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (1x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline forward
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all amidships, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      22 - 4.10" / 104 mm guns in single mounts, 34.46lbs / 15.63kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on bow with limited arc
   Weight of broadside 10,262 lbs / 4,655 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   468.00 ft / 142.65 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   16.0" / 406 mm   251.98 ft / 76.80 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   12.0" / 305 mm   468.00 ft / 142.65 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   468.00 ft / 142.65 m   28.00 ft / 8.53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   14.0" / 356 mm      16.0" / 406 mm
   2nd:   16.0" / 406 mm   14.0" / 356 mm      16.0" / 406 mm
   3rd:   16.0" / 406 mm         -         9.00" / 229 mm
   4th:   16.0" / 406 mm         -         9.00" / 229 mm
   5th:   16.0" / 406 mm         -         9.00" / 229 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 16.00" / 406 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,993 shp / 35,803 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 11.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,409 tons (80% coal)

Complement:
   1,209 - 1,573

Cost:
   £2.414 million / $9.657 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,283 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 14,012 tons, 43.1 %
      - Belts: 7,540 tons, 23.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 485 tons, 1.5 %
      - Armament: 3,907 tons, 12.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,729 tons, 5.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 351 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 2,353 tons, 7.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,698 tons, 32.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,720 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 435 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     51,288 lbs / 23,264 Kg = 59.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 7.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.585
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forecastle (30 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Mid (70 %):      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Stern:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 46,739 Square feet or 4,342 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 161 lbs/sq ft or 787 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.01
      - Longitudinal: 0.99
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

One word: torpedoes.

At 20kts it takes 7-8 min to cross the 5ky distance between the battlelines, during which the ship would be in range of enemy torpedoes. Take four ships, each firing 2 fish  every minute = 50+ torpedoes.

[khymerion]

Like I said, horrible idea...  was just toying with the idea... idea bad.  Good... now I can move on with my life.

Edit:   Wait, couldn't the fact that it is not presenting her side to the approaching torpedoes like a traditional battleship make the torpedoes a bit harder to target upon the ship at full speed or is this an idea best saved till a much more refined engine system is developed?

[The Rock Doctor]

I think my initial response would be that you can build two "normal" battleships with 3x2 armament for virtually the same cost.  However, there's no reason (to me, anyway) that you shouldn't tinker with an all-forward armament if you want.

Another wacky idea you might find interesting is the notion of a "torpedo cruiser" with heavy armor and heaps of tubes.  I think it was something the Russians cooked up but never bothered to build.  It might be an interesting "line-breaker".

Edit:  turning to face torpedos reduces the odds of a hit if they all come from one direction.  However, the enemy will probably have destroyers or cruisers coming out to try and take this tub out with attacks oblique to the battleline.

[Ithekro]

Well if you want weird yet functional (perhaps), I has this set for Wesworld (after a fashion) and just modified it for an earlier date.  Not much cheaper than Luna, but with a lot more 12 inch guns.

Samwise will charge in where none dear go.  With all main guns able to be fired ahead, heavy armor all around the belt and torpedoes on its own to leave as gifts, the Samwise should be able to pierce enemy formations.  (Samwise is counting on the general poor ability shown by torpedoes in hitting targets, especially targets with a smaller profile (bow on shots).

Samwise

Rohan Battleship laid down 1909

Displacement:
   24,866 t light; 26,101 t standard; 27,500 t normal; 28,510 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   550.00 ft / 540.00 ft x 104.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   167.64 m / 164.59 m x 31.70 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x3 guns), 926.00lbs / 420.03kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 926.00lbs / 420.03kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all aft
      8 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9,822 lbs / 4,455 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   2 - 16.0" / 406.4 mm above water torpedoes, 6 - 16.0" / 406.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   355.00 ft / 108.20 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   14.0" / 356 mm   185.00 ft / 56.39 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   14.0" / 356 mm   355.00 ft / 108.20 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   355.00 ft / 108.20 m   27.00 ft / 8.23 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   3rd:   7.00" / 178 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 22.68 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,519 tons)

Complement:
   1,067 - 1,388

Cost:
   £2.142 million / $8.568 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,150 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 11,228 tons, 40.8 %
      - Belts: 5,829 tons, 21.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 709 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armament: 2,870 tons, 10.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,544 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 276 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 2,182 tons, 7.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,246 tons, 37.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,634 tons, 9.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     35,895 lbs / 16,282 Kg = 41.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.635
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.19 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21.04 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Stern:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.32 ft / 6.80 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 41,730 Square feet or 3,877 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 887 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 2.01
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

That would work better...but with five turrets forwards/amidships, I think she'd really dig in by the bow.

[khymerion]

That was kinda the reason I went with the three very spaced apart centerlined turrets (I don't really have the technology to do much better currently) but the Luna carries the same number of 12" guns (curses to the lack of a better gun, forcing me to think like this), just with the four on the bow locked forward, rather than on a turret.  But I like what the Samwise does on a smaller hull (not the behemoth that Luna would sit in at), covering almost all the same capabilities.   Perhaps with an increase in the number of secondary weapons (at the slightly lower armor value) could serve as a deterent to the flanking destroyers.

[Ithekro]

Heh...Well, if this was a Rohan design there would be four turrets, the two centerline would be triple turrets.  Two forward, two amidships and all the casemates aft.  If one wanted to be cleaver (which I was not trying to be) one could stagger the amidship turrets for cross deck fire...thereby having ten guns forward aand on either broadside....and if you work the aft structure right, four heavy guns aft (though only two for most of the after arcs).

I assume that the 4.5" can be replaced with 6" and the armor belt reduced to 12" or maybe just some parts of the armored sectors.

Another option is to use the centerline for main batteries and try something funky like superimposed wing turrets of a ligher caliber (8" probably) so you can have 6 main guns plus 8 heavy secondary guns forward on a charge.

[Ithekro]

You know....I missed that you had four more 12" guns mounted low in casemates in the bow of the ship.  The is truely different.  O don't know if that would work for what you have in mind, but that is a different way to get 10 guns forward than what I had in mind.

On the torpedo thought...how many ships actually carried that many torpedoes and could reload them that fast...especially battleships with underwater tubes?  I can see 8 fish, maybe 16....but 50+?

[Korpen]

One word: torpedoes.

At 20kts it takes 7-8 min to cross the 5ky distance between the battlelines, during which the ship would be in range of enemy torpedoes. Take four ships, each firing 2 fish  every minute = 50+ torpedoes.

In this era torpedoes are quite overvalued (but i get a feeling people here have gotten taken in by the sales pitch). Even in ideal circumstances we are looking at a hit percentage of around 10%, and the number of functioning hits is lower then that.
If we take ww1 one as a guide, the number of times a manoeuvring warship was hit by torpedoes from another surface ship can almost be counted on one hand.

[Ithekro]

From gaming experiance (yes I know that's not always accurate and it depends on the system being played) torpedoes are really, really hard to get to hit anything that is moving, and expecially if it is moving towards you (as you have such a thin target to hit)  While it might be easier to predict the vessels path if it is charging, actually hitting it the problem.  In some systems its hit or miss based on luck, other's it's predicting where your enemy will be (then hit or dud, or value of damage).  But when a torpedo hits full on, generally its bad for whoever is receiving...but in most systems (Seekrieg, General Quarters 3, and Fire when Ready), you can have maybe two dozen torpedoes launched from warships and maybe get one hit.  In others (Genreal Quarters 2) you can fire 7 torpedo spreads with destroyers and hit almost every time (if you are lucky that is...I was and so the Italy were...the French and British were not.  I didn't sink any of them, but crippled them enough so they, the British Battlecruisers and French Armored Cruisers, would not escape the Italian and Austrian Battleships.)

[khymerion]

The 8 tubes that Luna carried would almost be mounted on the fore, as a final closing weapon, just to add insult to injury... so to speak.  At most, the ship would only carry perhaps 16 torpedoes in a ready position, 8 in tube, 8 for a potential reload after the first pass is long completed, with an additional 8 in storage in the magazine for later use.  Due to the nature of the ship, need for too many more is not a concern.  It is understood that the hit percentage is low, which is why they would reserved for when the name plate on the ship could almost be read, not as a long ranged weapon.   As for the 4 forward guns, well... it ws the only thing that I could think of to get more forward firing weapons without wing turrets or true superfiring capability.

And as for how I envisioned it being deployed, I was a bit misleading.  I was only meaning the fact that numbers prevented multiple battleships from operating together a good deal of time, not that she would go without escorts all together.  It might be invisioned or called a battleship destroyer, much like the heavy gunboats that many field in the role of torpedoboat destroyers, than a traditional line battleship.

[Korpen]

From gaming experiance (yes I know that's not always accurate and it depends on the system being played) torpedoes are really, really hard to get to hit anything that is moving, and expecially if it is moving towards you (as you have such a thin target to hit)  While it might be easier to predict the vessels path if it is charging, actually hitting it the problem.  In some systems its hit or miss based on luck, other's it's predicting where your enemy will be (then hit or dud, or value of damage).  But when a torpedo hits full on, generally its bad for whoever is receiving...but in most systems (Seekrieg, General Quarters 3, and Fire when Ready), you can have maybe two dozen torpedoes launched from warships and maybe get one hit.  In others (Genreal Quarters 2) you can fire 7 torpedo spreads with destroyers and hit almost every time (if you are lucky that is...I was and so the Italy were...the French and British were not.  I didn't sink any of them, but crippled them enough so they, the British Battlecruisers and French Armored Cruisers, would not escape the Italian and Austrian Battleships.)

To be honest, i have not played many naval wargames, but in many i have looked at there is a tendency to overvalue torpedoes.
And hitting a charging ship is very hard, as there is a good chance that the torpedo will simply bounce off at such a low impact angle (firing at a target moving away is even harder).

But one advantage is of course that you force the enemy to manoeuvre in response to the torpedo attack, and that might be very valuable if you of example what to disengage you main battlelina.

[Korpen]

      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on bow with limited arc

You know that casamete mounts are not powered, i feel sorry for the people loading 400kg shells by hand?

Also, i think you should raise the freeboard aft deck, or calculate the extra eight of the double-height barbarette as well as making both raised, as at the moment, springsharp only consider the centre turret to be mounted above the deck.

[khymerion]

Hmmmmm... more holes in the program that I didn't realize...