Iberian 1907 Armored Cruiser

[miketr]

1907 AC, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1907

Displacement:
   13,712 t light; 14,586 t standard; 16,500 t normal; 18,032 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   560.00 ft / 560.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   170.69 m / 170.69 m x 22.86 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (3x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 6,090 lbs / 2,762 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   357.50 ft / 108.97 m   10.04 ft / 3.06 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   192.48 ft / 58.67 m   10.04 ft / 3.06 m
     10.02 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   4.50" / 114 mm   357.50 ft / 108.97 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 34,000 shp / 25,364 Kw = 23.06 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,446 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   727 - 946

Cost:
   £1.417 million / $5.667 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 761 tons, 4.6 %
   Armour: 4,824 tons, 29.2 %
      - Belts: 2,077 tons, 12.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,523 tons, 9.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,085 tons, 6.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 140 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,125 tons, 12.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,973 tons, 36.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,788 tons, 16.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 29 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,695 lbs / 8,934 Kg = 41.3 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.36

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.47 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.80 ft / 7.86 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.42 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.42 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.42 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.42 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.17 ft / 5.23 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,311 Square feet or 2,723 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 684 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.38
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


***********************
Improved Henrique o Navegador Class
2 5,000 shp cruise turbines 16.5 knots
2 12,000 shp speed turbines (imports)

[Korpen]

I simply she is either too small or too large, she does not outgun older and slower ACs, and she cannot outrun the newer battlecruises that are starting to appear.
So either make her maybe 2000 ton larger and up gun to 30cm guns, or make her 2000t smaller and more in line with other ACs.


A suggestion: :)


Food for thoght, Iberia Armoured cruiser laid down 1907

Displacement:
   11 730 t light; 12 348 t standard; 13 909 t normal; 15 158 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   479,00 ft / 479,00 ft x 72,18 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
   146,00 m / 146,00 m x 22,00 m  x 8,50 m

Armament:
      6 - 9,84" / 250 mm guns (3x2 guns), 476,75lbs / 216,25kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      4 - 9,84" / 250 mm guns in single mounts, 476,75lbs / 216,25kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      6 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 17,64lbs / 8,00kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5 720 lbs / 2 594 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,27" / 210 mm   269,03 ft / 82,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   3,94" / 100 mm   209,97 ft / 64,00 m   11,15 ft / 3,40 m
   Upper:   3,94" / 100 mm   298,56 ft / 91,00 m   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
     Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,27" / 210 mm   4,33" / 110 mm      6,69" / 170 mm
   2nd:   8,27" / 210 mm   4,33" / 110 mm      6,69" / 170 mm
   3rd:   5,91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,17" / 55 mm, Conning tower: 7,99" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32 000 shp / 23 872 Kw = 23,06 kts
   Range 6 200nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 810 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   639 - 832

Cost:
   £1,293 million / $5,171 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 717 tons, 5,2 %
   Armour: 4 338 tons, 31,2 %
      - Belts: 2 070 tons, 14,9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 1 241 tons, 8,9 %
      - Armour Deck: 927 tons, 6,7 %
      - Conning Tower: 100 tons, 0,7 %
   Machinery: 2 000 tons, 14,4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 625 tons, 33,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 179 tons, 15,7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14 347 lbs / 6 508 Kg = 30,1 x 9,8 " / 250 mm shells or 2,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
   Metacentric height 4,0 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 15,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,44
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,505
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (30 %):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   15,17 ft / 4,63 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 23 139 Square feet or 2 150 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 650 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,94
      - Longitudinal: 1,79
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[miketr]

I simply she is either too small or too large, she does not outgun older and slower ACs, and she cannot outrun the newer battlecruises that are starting to appear.
So either make her maybe 2000 ton larger and up gun to 30cm guns, or make her 2000t smaller and more in line with other ACs.


A suggestion: :)

Design is not bad over all...  Other than I need at least 8,000 nm range I feel for my large cruisers.

As to ships likely to encounter.

I have looked over other peoples designs and from what I see your latest AC's are about the only ones I feel my design doesn't over match in total firepower and speed.  There are a lot of mixed battery designs out there vs. my uniform battery design and few over 20 knots speed.

Now if I push displacement up 2,000 tons I get this design... Besides the extra 2k displacement no small mater for my production of 8 BP a half year it also needs 4 12,000 shp turbines, to push to speed to near 25 knots, I will have a limited number of such power plants because their imports.

Iberia is a navy on a budget  I can't do everything I want.  To be honest I don't know when I am going to lay down a new BB.  The 1907 design once I looked over my economy and everyone else is going to stay a design.  I just can't afford to try to build it and everything else I need. 

The jump to BC is one I will odds are have to make but not till I have no choice; the size is just to much for me to bite off right now.

If you could point out other AC's designs that over match the 13 kt design I would be grateful.

1907 AC, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1907

Displacement:
   15,326 t light; 16,235 t standard; 18,273 t normal; 19,903 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570.00 ft / 570.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 25.50 ft (normal load)
   173.74 m / 173.74 m x 24.38 m  x 7.77 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (3x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 6,090 lbs / 2,762 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   370.50 ft / 112.93 m   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   199.48 ft / 60.80 m   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   370.50 ft / 112.93 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 24.80 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,668 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   785 - 1,021

Cost:
   £1.596 million / $6.383 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 761 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 5,102 tons, 27.9 %
      - Belts: 2,199 tons, 12.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,576 tons, 8.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,177 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 149 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 3,000 tons, 16.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,433 tons, 35.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,947 tons, 16.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 29 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,842 lbs / 9,000 Kg = 41.6 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.26 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Stern:      16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.47 ft / 5.33 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,824 Square feet or 2,957 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 693 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.34
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Considering the 4000-7000 metres fighting ranges, 10x250 is deadly. These guns can be expected to penetrate about 10 inches of armour at that range.  Only 11-12 inch and thicker belts offer protection.
So, anything less armoured than a battleship is a little meal.
Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
Considering the 4000-7000 metres fighting ranges, 10x250 is deadly. These guns can be expected to penetrate about 10 inches of armour at that range.  Only 11-12 inch and thicker belts offer protection.
So, anything less armoured than a battleship is a little meal.
Borys

Do really un-capped shells penetrate that much at that distance?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Interestingly, data for c.10 guns on the NavWeapons site is not that numerous.
One should also check for obliquity, steel type, etc. At 4000-7000 yards striking angles are 3 to 8 degrees.
At 7000 yards 9-10 inch plate SHOULD be enough. Maybe even 8. But remember about spalding.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_10-40_mk3.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_92-47_mk10.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_92-50_mk11.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_945-40_skc94.htm

This seems to be the best, and least complimentary table. But the shell looks oddly light ...
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSpain_945-42_Canet.htm


Borys

[miketr]

Borys the Spanish shell is actually heavier than the Austro-German shell of the same cal.  150 kg vs. 140 / 146 kg. 

What I expect of these ships is that they will be able to deal with Small / Protected cruisers and other armored cruisers.  So I am not asking them to deal with ships with more than 8" of belt anything larger they should try to run from.

Michael

[P3D]

For UK 9.2" with 380lbs shell and MC of 2890fps, penetration is 6" at 5ky and 3.5" at 10kyds for uncapped shells. For APC, the figures are 8" and 5".

[Borys]

Ahoj!
As these are 9,85" guns, a 500 lb shell is likely.

Borys

[P3D]

Hm... 7"/4.4" and 9"/6".

[Ithekro]

Well the stronger values would punch through the armor on Rohirrim Combat Cruisers, the olders ones having 6" of Harvey steel then 7" became standard, only the last two would have Krupp steel and the last one has 9" of belt armor.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I take it that
7"/4,4" is for uncapped at 5ky/10ky
9"/6" is for capped at 5ky/10ky

So at 5ky the Iberian ships massacre all the parts of a battleship not protected by the main belt. Cap or no cap - if the penetration (fly-through-armour, I understand) for uncapped is 7 inches, I'd expect hits on 8 inch plate to produce "interesting" effects behind it ...

P3D - could you quote for 7ky?

Borys

[P3D]

The armor values are for WWII 'class A' armor. Use the appropriate armore value modifiers to get the Krupp thickness.

~6" at 7ky for AP.

[swamphen]

As a note, the upcoming DKB 9.45" Model 1908 will be using a 419lb (190kg) shell.

[P3D]

There will be minimal differences for gun calibers from 9" to 10". At least we can account for that.