Iberian 1907 Armored Cruiser

[Borys]

229 to 254 for you metrics out there :)

Borys

[miketr]

So till directory fire control comes out I have some winner.  Or till something naster runs them down.  I think I will go with the 15kt version as its nearly a 25 knot design.

Any other thoughts or suggestions for the designs?

Looking over shells / guns at naval weapons.

US shell 10" 25.4cm 510 lbs
AH 9.4" / 24 cm 474 lbs
German 9.4" / 24cm 308-332lbs
UK 10" / 25.4 cm 500 lbs
UK 9.2" /23.4 cm 380 lbs
Japan 10" / 25.4 cm 518 lbs
Spain 9.4" / 24 cm 330 lbs
Italy 10" / 25.4 cm 500 lbs

Other than German and gulp... Spain everyone used a shell around 500 lbs for this size gun.  No doubt Spain had some type of help from krupp and thats why such anemic shells were used.  Even Austria used a heavier shell and it used Krupp weapons.  So I am going to hide behind my hapsburg alliance connections and go for a a shell nearly if not quiet at 500 lbs / 226.7 kg.  After all I got my new shell tech someplace didn't I! 

Hmmm.... Perhaps a 220 kg / 485 lbs or 225 kg / 496 lbs shell then.  Need real AP shells ASAP.

Michael 

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The lightness of the German shell is due to design philosphy - they wanted flatter trajectories, at higher velocity, and thus used lighter shells.
The UK and Austra were in the heavier shell at lower velocity camp. But this seems to bring dividends only over 10,000y or more.

Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
The lightness of the German shell is due to design philosphy - they wanted flatter trajectories, at higher velocity, and thus used lighter shells.
The UK and Austra were in the heavier shell at lower velocity camp. But this seems to bring dividends only over 10,000y or more.

Borys

But it improves the life-time of the barrel. High Vo is really detrimental to barrel life.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Yes. But sometimes a more expensive approach is chosen, for other reasons.
The German reasoning was poor visibility in North Sea, with low combat ranges, and it is easier to hit with a high velocity flat trajectory weapon, lower obliquity strike angle, etc., etc.

Borys

[Ithekro]

I'd imagine visibility is better in the Mediterranean Sea and maybe in the Atlantic Ocean than the North Sea.

[miketr]

This is my attempt to create a drawing for a redesign of the suspended AC-1907.

I am not too pleased with the look and even less so when saving it as a GIF trashed the color.



The redesign has the following changes:

1) Mixed Fired Boilers and slight change in range from 10,000 miles to 11,000
2) Deleted the lowered quarter deck to create a flushed deck design
3) Raised the bow to improve sea keeping
4) Changed the number and layout of the 150mm, 75mm and switched the 37mm with 50mm.
5) Replaced the 18" torpedos with 20"

AC-1907c, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1907

Displacement:
   15,188 t light; 16,290 t standard; 18,273 t normal; 19,859 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570.00 ft / 570.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 25.50 ft (normal load)
   173.74 m / 173.74 m x 24.38 m  x 7.77 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (3x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      14 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,160 lbs / 2,794 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   370.50 ft / 112.93 m   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   199.48 ft / 60.80 m   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   370.50 ft / 112.93 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 24.80 kts
   Range 11,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,569 tons (67% coal)

Complement:
   785 - 1,021

Cost:
   £1.585 million / $6.340 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 770 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 5,073 tons, 27.8 %
      - Belts: 2,199 tons, 12.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,547 tons, 8.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,177 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 149 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,904 tons, 15.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,408 tons, 35.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,084 tons, 16.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 33 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,998 lbs / 9,071 Kg = 41.9 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.71 ft / 9.06 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Stern:      16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.75 ft / 5.41 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,824 Square feet or 2,957 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 688 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.37
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Ithekro]

Is this a cruiser or and icebreaker?  A nearly 4 meter raise to the bow?

[P3D]

Save as .png. It is also a lossless format (no smearing at the edges like jpg), but have more colors than GIF.

[miketr]

Freeboard is one of the things I disliked about springsharp over springstyle.  I always had problems with it when I tried to creat anything other than a totally flat deck.

This should hurt your eye's less once I get around to creating a new picture.

Michael

AC-1907d, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1907

Displacement:
   15,274 t light; 16,376 t standard; 18,273 t normal; 19,790 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570.00 ft / 570.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 25.50 ft (normal load)
   173.74 m / 173.74 m x 24.38 m  x 7.77 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (3x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      14 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,160 lbs / 2,794 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   370.50 ft / 112.93 m   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   199.48 ft / 60.80 m   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   370.50 ft / 112.93 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 24.80 kts
   Range 10,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,414 tons (67% coal)

Complement:
   785 - 1,021

Cost:
   £1.588 million / $6.352 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 770 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 5,099 tons, 27.9 %
      - Belts: 2,199 tons, 12.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,573 tons, 8.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,177 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 149 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,904 tons, 15.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,468 tons, 35.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,998 tons, 16.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 33 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,220 lbs / 9,172 Kg = 42.4 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.71 ft / 7.23 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.71 ft / 5.70 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Stern:      16.71 ft / 5.09 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.81 ft / 5.43 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,824 Square feet or 2,957 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 694 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.38
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[miketr]

Ice Breaker no more?

Michael

[Ithekro]

Much nicer.

[P3D]

Move 'O' turret aft. I have the impression that the guns would hit the bridge if they are turned for cross-deck firing. Also, just 13' longer than what would fit in a lvl2 dock. You could increase draft a bit and shorten the ship. Also, you don't need 200 shells for each gun (shorter citadel). A bit more misc. weight for future growth might not be a bad idea.
2 underwater TT should be enough to finish cripples.

[miketr]

Move 'O' turret aft. I have the impression that the guns would hit the bridge if they are turned for cross-deck firing. Also, just 13' longer than what would fit in a lvl2 dock. You could increase draft a bit and shorten the ship. Also, you don't need 200 shells for each gun (shorter citadel). A bit more misc. weight for future growth might not be a bad idea.
2 underwater TT should be enough to finish cripples.

I checked and the turret in question can cross deck with 2 whole feet (pixel) to spare.





If your going to fire torpedo's might as well fire two to be sure.

If I cut the ship size down by 15 feet and widen the hull by 2 I loose a tiny amount of speed but I also loose my sea keeping.  Also steel has already been cut and I would have trouble rationalizing any type of major changes to the ships dimensions.  I have more naval infrastructure than I can use so I am good on the current size.  If anything I would like the ship to be made longer to try to improve the length to width ratio. 

As to misc weight, I could add another 40 tons on the current design.  Also I just noticed the engine date is wrong, AGAIN, I have done this with several designs now.  its 1907 and I am using 1909 engines imported from DKB which gives me another .12 of composit strength.  Hmmm... I have time to kill might as well write up a story about the error getting caught.

Michael

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Nice.
The next step is 220 metres, so you have 150' of lenght to fool around with.

Borys