Privateer

[Ithekro]

I imagine the Indians coming to drive him (Captain Sparrow) out once they get the notion they have a pirate operating out of their islands.

[Desertfox]

Pirate? No my friend, unlicensed privateer. :P Course he wont be the only one operating from there...

[Korpen]

Pirate? No my friend, unlicensed privateer. :P Course he wont be the only one operating from there...

Privateers are pirates.

[Ithekro]

That depends on point of view.  A pirate is a person who steals on the high seas for profit.  A privateer is a person who steals on the high seas for someone else, generally in times of war or for economic warfare.  To the ones he preys on, he is a pirate.  To those he steals for or those he doesn't bother in the least, he is a privateer....a pirate who may pirate things legally under a  Letter of Marque.

[miketr]

The question is was there anything like the Declaration of Paris; April 16, 1856 in game?

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/decparis.htm

The Plenipotentiaries who signed the Treaty of Paris of March assembled in conference,

Considering: That maritime law in time of war has long been the subject of deplorable disputes;

That the uncertainty of the law and of the duties in such a matter gives rise to differences of opinion between neutrals and belligerents which may occasion serious difficulties, and even conflicts; that it is consequently advantageous to establish a uniform doctrine on so important a point;

That the Plenipotentiaries assembled in Congress at Paris cannot better respond to the intentions by which their Governments are animated than by seeking to introduce into International relations fixed principles in this respect.

The above-mentioned Plenipotentiaries, being duly authorized, resolved to concert among themselves as to the means of attaining this object; and having come to an agreement, have adopted the following solemn declaration:

1. Privateering is and remains abolished;

2. The neutral flag covers enemy's goods, with the exception of contraband of war;

3. Neutral goods, with the exception of contraband of war, are not liable to capture under enemy's flag;

4. Blockades, in order to be binding, must be effective-that is to say, maintained by a forge sufficient really to prevent access to the coast of the enemy.

The Governments of the undersigned Plenipotentiaries engage to bring the present declaration to the knowledge of the States which have not taken part in the Congress of Paris, and to invite them to accede.

Convinced that the maxims which they now proclaim cannot but be received with gratitude by the whole world, the undersigned Plenipotentiaries doubt not that the efforts of their Governments to obtain the general adoption thereof will be crowned with full success.

The present Declaration is not and shall not be binding, except between those Powers who have acceded, or shall accede, to it.

[Ithekro]

And even if so, who signed it and who did not.  Rohan most certainly did not sign it even if there was such a Treaty.

[Korpen]

That depends on point of view.  A pirate is a person who steals on the high seas for profit.  A privateer is a person who steals on the high seas for someone else, generally in times of war or for economic warfare.  To the ones he preys on, he is a pirate.  To those he steals for or those he doesn't bother in the least, he is a privateer....a pirate who may pirate things legally under a  Letter of Marque.

A pirate is a private person who attacks  shipping on the high seas for profit, it does not matter if he has the support of a state or not.
If then then choose to call himself pirate, buccaneer, privateer or corsairs is irrelevant.

This issue is treated indirectly in the Haag drafts.

[Carthaginian]

The CSA considers privateering not only a legitimate military tactic, but a hobby, diversion and art form among those able to afford it during times of war. Indeed, if not for privateers guarding it's coasts and seeking out enemy commerce in wartime, the CSA might have to devote a larger portion of it's budget to the military.

A pirate is a private person who attacks  shipping on the high seas for profit, it does not matter if he has the support of a state or not.

Only if this treaty is considered law.
Prior to that, privateering was legal.
The Confederacy continues to support this stance, and will do so at the upcoming conference.



OoC: Privateering also makes for good story material.

[Ithekro]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque

A Privateer being a commissioned "agent" (officer if you like) who is authorized to seek and destroy assets or personnel of an enemy.  He might be likened to a common pirate, but he (or she) is legally authorized by a government as a warrented or commissioned officer and therefore should be considered a legitimate extension of one's navy when sailing (or steaming) under a Letter of Marque and Reprisal.

As noted this is usually done either during times or war, or for instances where war is not to be declared but an offense must be managed.

(Rohan presently has two privateer vessels on retainer...neither is active at present.)

[Korpen]

The CSA considers privateering not only a legitimate military tactic, but a hobby, diversion and art form among those able to afford it during times of war. Indeed, if not for privateers guarding it's coasts and seeking out enemy commerce in wartime, the CSA might have to devote a larger portion of it's budget to the military.

A pirate is a private person who attacks  shipping on the high seas for profit, it does not matter if he has the support of a state or not.

Only if this treaty is considered law.
Prior to that, privateering was legal.
The Confederacy continues to support this stance, and will do so at the upcoming conference.



OoC: Privateering also makes for good story material.

First rule-wise; does offering letters of marques, give the state free ships?


Privateers are bloody silly, as by this time there are no real economic motives for them. No state who has been able to afford ships for commerce raiding have used privateers.

Privateers do not operate under naval discipline and command of the state, they are private individual how has entered a contractual agreement with a state. Giving a caption a commission as officer does not change anything as the ship it self is not a naval vessel, nor operates under government control or orders.
A tricky issue with privateers is if they are to be treated as soldiers or civilians, and that makes them very tricky for neutrals in a conflict as well as how prisoners are to be treated. And if a privateer commits atrocities, are the government responsible for him or not, is a privateer supposed to live up to the responsibilities a government ship has in conduct? And if the privateer are supposed to act like a warship, what way to enforce it is open to the state offering the letter?
And that is only a small selection of issues...

[Ithekro]

All of these issues have been dealt with in real history.  If a privateer commits atrocities usually the letter is revoked and the privateer is labeled a pirate by his own government.

And they are not free, cheaper perhaps, but not free.  Their fees are rather large for services rendered.  When not engaging their Letters they go about as regular merchantmen.


I might note that the historical United States of America never signed the Declaration of Paris and thus has even considered the use of privateers into the 21st century.

[Ithekro]

For the Record, Rohan's privateers are held under military disipline.  They know if they waver in their duty they will have to answer for their crimes.  The Lord of Mithlond does not like it when those that travel under his flag soil it's honor, and less if they dishonor the reputation of the King of Rohan.  If the privateers of Rohan defy their Letters, Lord Harlock will hunt them down personally with the Arcadia.

I might note that a Rohirrim Privateer enaged what appeared to be a French privateer (or some kind of armed merchantmen) in the recent past, after the French ship crippled and nearly sank the Brandenburg Armored Cruiser Furst Bismarck.

(And to be honest, basic privateering will be on the way out within the decade or so as more dedicated raiders are built instead of arming/constructing civilian warships.  There will probably always be some sort of armed merchant cruiser and the like, but the days of the private warship is coming to a close dispite what Rohan, the Confederate States of America, or the Swiss say.)

[Korpen]

All of these issues have been dealt with in real history.  If a privateer commits atrocities usually the letter is revoked and the privateer is labeled a pirate by his own government.

And they are not free, cheaper perhaps, but not free.  Their fees are rather large for services rendered.  When not engaging their Letters they go about as regular merchantmen.


I might note that the historical United States of America never signed the Declaration of Paris and thus has even considered the use of privateer into the 21st century.

Fees? The do not get paid, that was kind of the point of them. They get to keep what they capture, how much depends on the nature of the contract they have with a state.
LoM has their origin in a period when there were no real difference between merchantman and a warship, in fact most navies were created by arming merchant ships. If you could afford it , you put the ship under you direct control (and then you, the state, got to keep most of the ships captured),if not, and if it was beyond you control, you issued privateers. This was not very different from how warfare on land was conducted (the rather large plunder marches called "campaigns").

But here there is no need to issue LoM, even the smallest warships can overpower a merchantman armed with some small guns (as the captain has to pay for them himself) and a half-trained (as gunners and fighter) crew on a ship that is not built to fight, but to carry cargo as cheaply as possible. It is much more efficient to send out a well-armed and well-trained AMC if you want merchantmen to go raiding.

And Lom;s only got recalled in practice if the privateer conducted atrocities against the country issuing the letter.

And while the USA have not signed the declaration of Paris, they have signed the laws of the high seas, and that bans privateers indirectly.
Also, they have never issued privateers since the Napoleonic era.

[Carthaginian]

Privateers do not operate under naval discipline and command of the state, they are private individual how has entered a contractual agreement with a state. Giving a caption a commission as officer does not change anything as the ship it self is not a naval vessel, nor operates under government control or orders.

I don't have to get a ship out of navy yard to make it an effective combatant agianst torpedo boats or merchantmen. A few 6, 12, or 25 pound guns, a floating ship, a reliable engine, and a willing crew are all you need to pull that off.

And the government can requisition anything it pleases in time of war. If that harbor tug looks like it would be more effective as a patrol boat at the moment, it's going to be a patrol boat as soon as the gun mounts can be bolted on. The crew will be military as soon as they raise their hands and are sworn into my military. They might not be disciplined, and they might not be as effective as real trained fighting men... but they are probably going to try and make up for that in enthusiasm. Lord knows that the commerce raiders of the real life Confederate States Navy proved that. Heck, Lieutenant (later Captain) John Lowe and his little ship Tuscaloosa took a couple of prizes with nothing more than a few of Alabama's pop-guns and some black poles painted to look like 32-pounders before being captured. ;D

They were a crew of British volunteers, on a captured (requisitioned) civilian vessel, and they did a fine job of improvising in the face of a far superior foe.

A tricky issue with privateers is if they are to be treated as soldiers or civilians, and that makes them very tricky for neutrals in a conflict as well as how prisoners are to be treated. And if a privateer commits atrocities, are the government responsible for him or not, is a privateer supposed to live up to the responsibilities a government ship has in conduct? And if the privateer are supposed to act like a warship, what way to enforce it is open to the state offering the letter?

If they are privateers bearing a legitimate letter of Marquee, then they are in the military of that nation as mercenaries under contract. While they are in the employ of that nation, they should conduct themselves in a manner befitting fighting men of that nation. If they do not, they will be subjected to the same standards as mercenaries. This is a good point of discussion for the Conference.

[Carthaginian]

And I agree that Privateering is a soon to be gone relic of the past.
WWI was the 'Commerce Raider's Last Hurrah', as it just became too easy to find, track and kill a surface raider with smaller, longer ranged warships as radio and other innovations made 'outrunning the law' a more difficult feat.