Den Haag conferentie Hague Conference

[maddox]

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=785.0

The draft the Dutch governement shared with the invited members to this conference.

Let the talks begin.

Admiral Geon and Minister Capet are attending.

[Korpen]

Well, not quite, yet ;)
i will quote my self:

Well, first of all, i would remind everybody that if you have any questions, objections or suggestions on any of the conventions or parts of them, please contact the Government of the Netherlands for clarifications or discussion prior to the conference. I cannot stress this enough.

If people think they will have had time to at least look trough the main conventions and comment (to me) on them, i aim to start the conference in the beginning of next week (in real life that is).
As each convention is a separate entity, and can be signed individually, it would be at least one thread for each convention.

So after monday :)
And please send me feedback before then!

[maddox]

Admiral Geon aks

Vessels and ships are nice words; but what I want to ask, are warships included? As defender of France on the 7 seas, I want to know if a potential enemy could gather a fleet in plain view, and then get international support if the coastal state reacts on it.

From Minister Capet comes the following question.

"why the arbitrairy line of 3 miles? Why not 5 km? Or something that really can be messured, not the ever shifting sands of a beach, or the retreating seawall of the cliffs."

[khymerion]

Admiral Garris Stokk gives his view:

"While it does pain us to have to say this, we have to agree with the French on the 3km point.  With the rapid progression of capabilities of modern warships and their support ships, the 5 km line would be be more supported... as to prevent the possibility in the future of ships beyond the line being able to fire accurately upon a coastal city or town.  That is one of our few concerns.

"And in a point of being vague... what is the status of armed civilian ships and the response by warships.  In addition to this, what is the status of transports being escorted by warships during a time of war on the high seas?  Fear of treachery or being declared a pirate or rogue power brings this point up.

"Beyond that...  most of the other parts of the convention, while quite verbose, make sense... this is just the Confederation's initial reactions."

[Phoenix]

Prince Pu Lun nodded. "We are indeed worried about the short distance you proposed. We always felt it more prudent that a 20 mile stretch would be adequate to protect one's coast from prying eyes and searching cannons. 20 miles is preferable.
And we have very strong notions about piracy. We would prefer to protect convoys and such with armed vessels. You know what kind of demon roams the seas these days. Piracy is a scourge that should be eradicated with the most stern measures. And that includes government-sponsored piracy that is called by some by the term of "privateers" as well !"

[maddox]

Monsieur Le president de conference, You are right. This convention did not put any distance to the coastal water limits.

I just assumed that the previous  proposals from the convention of Vienna are seen as a base for this one.

On Admiral Geons question, and your answer to this, we will clarify.  It is generaly know that the normal battlerange of the battleline of 7000 yards is surpassed by the range of modern guns, even the smaller ones mounted on large warships.
So with a battlefleet doing a 2 mile pass by that could destroy all the coastal towns.
That rule is more against your own coast, than of any other of our countries. No coastline is as densely populated as the Dutch.

[Walter]

Japan's representative, Lord Kujaku, remains silent for now. He has nothing important to say at this moment.

OOC: Maddox, Khymerion. Reading the statements from the representatives of your nations, I get the impression that you want to increase the range of the territorial waters to five kilometers. However going from 3 miles to 5 kilometers is actually decreasing that range.We're talking about the territorial waters, so we're dealing with nautical miles here. 1 nautical mile is 1.852 kilometers so 3 nautical miles is 5.556 kilometers. Thus the three mile range is greater than the 5 kilometer.
So why is the range in nautical miles? Simple. Your speed is in knots. That's why. 1 knot is 1 nautical mile per hour. This would mean that when a ship moves at 10 knots away from the coast, he'll get to the three mile mark after 18 minutes. At 20 knots, it will be in 9 minutes.

[The Rock Doctor]

Foreign Affairs Minister Eduard Torres comments, "Gran Colombia generally finds itself agreeable with the various proposals [the historical docs] being discussed.

"Gran Colombia does view the issue of territorial water distances as a matter of legal jurisdiction:  how far out our laws apply.  So long as the concept of innocent passage is upheld, the extent of territorial waters do not affect military operations whatsoever:  if the foreign ship off your coast is peaceful, it is just as peaceful five miles away as it is three miles away.  If the foreign ship intends to bombard one's coast, it really does not matter how wide one's territorial waters are."

To Prince Pu Lin, Minister Torres says, "A vessel that preys upon our shipping, persons, or property is either owned by, controlled by, and subject to the military law of a foreign government, or it is not.  In the former case, its assault constitutes an act of war; in the latter case, it is an act of piracy, for which specific sentences are perscribed under our criminal code."

To Admiral Stokk, he says, "I suspect the status of a transport or freighter in times of war to depend upon its cargo.  If considered war materials - military personnel, weapons, ammunition and so forth - the vessel should be considered a warship.  If the cargo is non-military in nature, or unfinished, such as food, rubber, ores, and so forth, the vessel should be considered civilian."

[Carthaginian]

The Confederate States' representative, Ambassador Theodore Roosevelt, Jr addresses the current points made:

"Anything within three miles of the coast of the Confederate States of America is the sovereign territory, our laws apply there as surely as though it was the ground underneath the capital building. I find the honorable Senior Torres of Gran Colombia to be correct in his point that peaceful is peaceful regardless of distance, and hostile is hostile regardless of distance.

Prince Pu Lun has stated that twenty miles might be more sufficient. I say that is hardly the case. Today, as the honorable Delegation form France has pointed out, guns can reach more than 7000 yards. "Let us set a range beyond that reach" he says. I ask, what shall we do in ten years, when that distance might be 17,000 yards? Do we return here to renegotiate? Do we then move the limits of a nations waters out that far? What of 50 years form now? How far will guns be able to fire then... 70 miles... 700 miles... OR even 7000?

We'd never leave this table, nor would our sons nor theirs, should we take this route. I'd bet we ran out of oceans in which to draw boundaries before we came up with a 'safe' distance.

Three miles it's been,and three miles it should remain.

On to the issue of Piracy, then.
The Confederate States of America retains and intends to retain, the ability to issue letters of Marquis and Reprisal to our citizens who are willing and able to contribute to our war efforts in a direct way. We will regard any ship bearing such letters as a de facto member of the issuing nation's military forces as a mercenary under contract. The captain and crews of such ships will be treated in a manner befitting that of fighting men in uniform, whatever their state of dress might be, and will consequently be treated as such. They will, consequently, be held responsible to the code of conduct that such men must abide by, and will face trail and punishment under the same if they violate it.

Any nation that does not reciprocate will be committing, in our sight, and act of war equal to that of effecting an attack on our military.

Any ship physically lacking such official Letters, and not priorly registered with it's government as a corsair, is considered a free-booting pirate, and shall be taken into custody and tried as such if possible, or shall be otherwise dealt with if not.

On the question of the status of a merchant ship, the Confederate States of America says this:

1.) Any ship under the flag of a belligerent nation is subject to sinking or seizure as a prize of war.

2.) Any ship of a neutral flag is subject to seizure of it's cargo only as a prize of war if it's cargo be military in nature, or to denial of right of passage to it's destination if it's cargo be peaceful in nature. Seized cargo may be reacquired by the seller after payment of prize fees to the capturing nation.

3.) In light of the recent innovations in submarine warfare, and looking towards even greater developments in this arena, the Confederate States of America seeks a pledge from all nations participating in this conference that any such vessels as presently exist, or shall in the future exist, under their command will refrain from attacking merchantmen who are clearly not operating under the flag of their enemy nation."

[swamphen]

Theobald von Bethmann-Holzweig represents the DKB:

"It is the position of the Second German Reich that the generally accepted and exsisting limit of territorial waters set at three nautical miles from the mean high tide level, should be maintained."



(ooc: As for the rest, guess I'd better do some reading.  ;D )

[miketr]

Iberia shows up and says nothing so far.

[maddox]

OOC, the French confusion about miles, kilometers and nautical miles isn't a surprise.
There is a +/-200m difference between the Nm and the m, and again +/- 150m between the mile and the kilometer. France is using the metric system since Napoleon convinced the parlimant to get rid of all those strange messurements as ell, feet, hand,stone,hogshead et all.

IC

Admiral Geon.
The 3 nautical mile, or whatever bonduary that will be concluded here is only a calculation. I'm concerned about the safety of France.  And wish to press upon the other participants that warships of any kind at least have to announce and await the agreement on passage. Just an act of courtesy. That is what I'll advice my governement, despite what is concluded here.

[Carthaginian]

The 3 nautical mile, or whatever bonduary that will be concluded here is only a calculation. I'm concerned about the safety of France.  And wish to press upon the other participants that warships of any kind at least have to announce and await the agreement on passage. Just an act of courtesy. That is what I'll advice my governement, despite what is concluded here.

The Confederate States of America also agrees that any time that another nation's warships penetrate the territorial waters of nation, they should- insofar as possible, recognizing the continuing difficulties of ship-to-shore communication- notify the government of the nation who's waters will be transited.

If immediate and exact notification is impossible, then a general declaration of intent communicated between governments containing more general terms might also be acceptable.

[Ithekro]

"The Mark finds most of the document agreeable.  Some of its points are without specific numerical references, such as the distance ones territorial seas should extend."

"Rohan's views on what a pirate is and is not seems to clash with that of the European world.  More specificially the what qualities a privateer has.  It has been Rohan's experiance that our own privateeers have been honorable men who have chosen to live free of ones military and yet still aid their people and their king against hostile countries or peoples.  In more resent times the status of Privateer is an awarded position for either retired military personel that wish to serve the King on their own accord, or loyal merchantmen that state their case to defend the Mark from piracy and foreign raiders.  The Mark's Privateers no longer prey on shipping except in times of war, and even then they are usually tasked with the dangerous mission of baiting would be pirates and raiders into attacking someone who is more than able to defend themselves.  Because this position warrents the highest loyalty and honor, their are at best three opening for the title Privateer of the Mark in this day and age.  Only two of which are filled at present, the third has been unfilled for many decades, and the Marshals of the Mark and the King feel that once these remaining two title holders retire, so too will the title Privateer of the Mark."

OOC:  The third title of Privateer of the Mark was with the Harlock's of Mithlond, but since the Harlocks have been in actual naval service for many decades now, that title has not been transfered.  Each title has its own flag...the Harlock title having been gifted as the Family Flag after it was retired as a formal civilian title.  Thus Lord Harlock flys the "Skull and Crossbones" of this family along with the War Ensign of the Mark on the Arcadia as is his right.  His family has taken a dim view of those that would fly and soil his families flag...his "flag of freedom".

(Well the Matsumoto version of the flag anyway)

[maddox]

Minister capet.


We of Glorious France agree on the statement of Rohan that a honorable privateer from the Mark is a valuable addition of the countries fighting resources.
But alas, there are less savory countries with less than honorable intentions, and who do not have any use for honor, nor privateers with a personal code that is acceptable for civilised states. (slight glimps towards the New Swiss delegate)

We of France will only accept the Letters of Marque issued by Rohan. As these are the only ones that have the connotation to honor. On other privateers. The only concession we will make is that these, after a suitable time in French custody, will return to the land that issued the illegitimid Letter of Marque.
This is a lot better than what Glorious France has for punishment to pirates and boucaniers lifelong in the state coalmines, or hard labor on the Cruezet islands.