Maps

[maddox]

There is no reason to keep your head down.  Not if it comes to asking for a playing country.

[Ithekro]

While I think I know what you are trying to do Foxy, I don't think that works logically with the climate of Rohan.  In your version Edoras or Minas Tirith are on the Equator.  I don't imagine cavalry charges in the tropics being very practical.  Moving it north or sourth in needed for something closer to the correct temperate zone.

I have a larger trade map of 1924 that is New World centric and has a grid.  I've scaled up ME to fit the scale at the equator and shifted them to see where it could be placed based on.  It again is rough, but might give us some perspective.

Closer to the DKB


Closer to North America with Numenor acting like a slightly farther north version of Hawaii.  It's even on the main trade route naturally.


As for Atlantis, it probably isn't needed, unless it is the substatue for the Azores and the home of the ACM.

[Ithekro]

Or with Numenor closer to Japan and Russia, but a Swiss point on there way from the Philippines to Alaska?

[Ithekro]

Sorry this is a quickly map...I should probably use Foxy's once we get ME's final placement down.



Fixed Baltic alittle.  Replaced North American Rohan with enlarged California, A much larger Haven (big Indian problems), and a smaller more southerly Eastern Kingdom.   Alternately we could but the Eastern Kingdom on western Middle Earth, but then one would have to figure out A) Why they would care about Anchorage?  B) How the UKA would attack them?  C) If there are airships involved still?

I actaully am not looking forward to a Mexican Empire (at least in the Spanish decent version of it)  The rump Mexico with an enlarged Confederacy seemed more fun.  Also it wouldn't do to have the entire empire fall apart due to a war in the far south if they got up to and hold gold rich California.

I suppose the question is how much of what has been done are we keeping?   How much is going away?  How much can be safetly shifted without loosing the flavor already optained?  I got a lot of purchased ships from the Confederacy that have been renamed after Northwestern Indian tribes and nations.  A lot of Native stuff has been thrown into Rohan to fit the region it rest in before the shift.  Effort was placed to keep California free and some effort was spent to try to keep the Swiss from grabbing a larger foothold than they already had.  (no sense having more "invaders" on the continent).

How much of what we change are we going to fill?  How much will we leave for someone new?  How much will be fill with pre-done NPC or ready to go PC countries?

These probably should be addressed before we get to far into the nation building aspect as oppose to the geographical aspect of things.

[P3D]

Problem is that basically there's not much place for new nations right now, as everyone went landgrabbing and Ithreko decided to ignore my objections when drawing the maps. If we are putting colonies to prime lands, new nations would get the dregs.

I don't want lump nations with over 200 million populations. Like China or Russia

[Earl822]

I prefer Norman Empire, not UKA.

P3D: What we have here is actually very feasible in terms of nations that exist, though I admit it may be prudent to slip Russia in two, maybe Eastern & Western Empires, which disagree on minor issues, hence the split. Also there is the Chance for somebody to play a far more powerful Romania, with a small Black Sea Empire, not to mention, the Spanish, the Dutch, the Italians, Egypt, India, etc.

Some minor problems with the latest map proposed:-

That spare land in the middle of North America is useless, maybe significantly reduce the New Swiss Holdings back to the Alaskan Border, shrink the EK, moving it North towards and into the Yukon, place another enclave of it in the North of Canada, and create a Canadian State, with it's main Seaport being at Vancouver

[Ithekro]

How open do we want the lands?  Do we want to premake stuff for peolpe, or leave stuff open and borderless?

P3D:  I appologies for ignoring your complaints, but I'm trying for geography verses what geopolitics has happened, verses the proposed changes.



This map has only the most basic knowns and alterations by wish list to player nations.  I've erased the majority of the remaining political borders of the older PC and NPC nations to show how much space is open for new players or old players that want a fresh start.

Great shifts in countries might not be useful if that country has a player nation and wants to keep at it (Ottoman Empire verse Bynantium).  I don't know if we should remove all the muslim nations as that give a great chance for conflict.  And some players have tried to play muslim nations before in one context or another.  But that is a moderator decision.

I agree with Swamphen that placing Rohan is the southern Pacific messes up the flow more than having it in the center-northern Pacific and tilted  if we keep events going from before.  If it is placed in the south it will need to be turned a different direction to fit the climate.  The older inverted idea worked for the 1.2 world, but it seems too close to Zeeland and removed from New Beleriand.   Shifting in inverse from its present 90 degree tilt might do it in place of Easter Island and the Pitcairn Islands.

Like so? (using Foxy's map as a base here)


What I'm looking for is an A-OK on the geography of the landmasses from one of the various maps, or a combination that works for all involved in the region effected.  I'm assuming Atlantis is dropped.  After we have that fixed we can worry about the geopolitical spheres.

[Desertfox]

Note: Written before your reply Ithekro.

ME could be moved slightly south and flipped around, that could fix the climate problem. Also having the Incas be the Eye, could better explain how they end up in Brazil.

But with Rohan down south, the Spanish would have made inroads into Mexico. And the USA without New England and the Great Lakes would have been weaker, which explains how Mexico manages to keep South California, Arizona, and New Mexico.

Get rid of EK, with Japan around it is not needed, another country can take its place in the IC fiasco.

Actually there is plenty of prime land remaining and we cant touch China without Phoenix's approval.

But for Potential Player Nations we have:
In Asia,
Japan
Siberia
Mongol Empire
Persian Empire
Mughal Empire
Siam

Europe,
stronger Spain
Rumanian/Ukranian Empire
Russia
Neatherlands
ACM/Atlantis

Africa,
Carthage
Egypt
Ethiopean Empire
Zimbabawe?

America,
United States
Mexico
Union Sud Americana
Quebec?
Brazil?

Oceania,
Western Australia
Middle Earth (remaining non Rohan parts)

I count 22 potential player nations, plus more possible if a strong nation is not wanted.


A note on NS, if possible I want to locate NS between the Marshalls and Hawaii.

[Ithekro]

Move what to where?  What is NS in this case?

Actaully that was the reason I didn't want to move Rohan south.  I don't want the Spanish to go that foothold early on and thus leave room for a more native North America rather than having it overrun with Europeans.  Having Rohan destroy an Incan Empire doesn't work either as the Anahuac Plateau is in Mexico, plus that doesn't make the canal aspect necessary if New Beleriand in in South America (the main reason for the war being the tention between Followers of the Eye verse Gondorians)...also no Caribbean Fleet.

Now if New Beleriand is shifted to South America, France and Gran Columbia can duel out a canal or two.  Rohan would be defending South American natives (thus I'd need to rename my purchased ships, and figure out who I bought them from).  The local Followers of the Eye Empire would be defeated in 1900 and thus new territory added to New Beleriand and the remaining state reordered as a republic I imagine (to fit the earlier pattern without having to do it over again completely.  Clipperton Island is now noplace the Mark needs to transit to get troops to New Beleriand, so the pirate conflict of the war would have to have been around Easter Island and the Great Battle near one of the closer South American Islands.

This would mean the Spanish got shafted in southern South America leaving much smaller colonies (if any) other than what is now Gran Columbia.

Spanish North and Central America would them be about normal, but we'd have to have a thread for plugging in histories after we get the geography and then the geopolitics settled.

[Desertfox]

NS in this case would be an England size main island in an archipelago.

Inserting ME will have to cause some changes, another possibility is to graft ME into North America ala current Australia. That would require the least amount of history changes, and would remove any Swiss need for California. And with the most of the UKA being disbanded would fill in the empty spaces in NA.

[Ithekro]

What like this?



This is with Numenor as it's proper distance from Middle Earth.  It can be moved I suppose as it was suppose to have sunk ages ago (and be on a fault that seperates it but that would fit more in the Atlantic than Pacific)

Doesn't quite defeat the purpose of adding new lands, but comes close to it.  North America is altered a bit on the West Coast, Australia is bigger as is Hawaii.   Waterways have been cut through lands to give more lands access to the seas.  However we have no new continent to put new players on.

[Earl822]

Move ME to the right when looking at the map, meaning it sticks out from North America, though Anchorage would now be a harbour on a Med sized sea.

EDIT: Try left :-[

[Desertfox]

Flip ME around, should look better.

Hawaii should remain the same, the main NS island would be between it and the Marshalls.

As for new continents how about placing the remaining ME islands in the South Pacific as was discusses with ME? We can also keep Atlantis as the ACM was located there. That together with bigger Australia and ME islands should give enough new land.

[swamphen]

Not keeping up with the NS discussion yet, but I think it would work better as Ithekro's Australiddle Earth version, adding yet another continent to the Pacific on a size=Earth world rather reduces naval options...

I'd advise not taking away any of China, you don't want to anger the Dragon Lady...

The Bear, on the other hand, goes into the butcher shop. The "Caspian Channel" helps a lot here. ;D Also added an EK and Pakistan, and scuttled Atlantis (and colored in the Baltic Confederation).



In the US...how about a Lake Bonneville?

[Ithekro]

Due to climate I don't think I can invert ME in NA this time.  But I took the rest of the suggestions for modifications to see what it would look like.



Shamphen's path is probably the better way, or a slight mixing to the two.  As with all compromises, no one gets exactly what they want...but then that is usually why wars are started.