Capital ships design studies from the Netherlands

[Ithekro]

Well the Battleship can probably stand up to most vessels in the world or on the drawing board at present.  The Battlecruiser is by default flawed just because of how it is intended to perform its primary function (scouting with enough firepower to be able to kill anything, or run if it can't) using battleship guns and better than most armored cruiser's speeds (actually better than most any cruiser's speed when the idea was put forth).

[Desertfox]

Current battlecruiser designs are not true battlecruisers but more like fast battleships. They just don't have the speed to run down Swiss Cruisers or even the Swiss Super Cruisers, and once the Constitutions get converted to Oil firing... Waste of money in my opinion. You either build a BC or you don't.

[Korpen]

Well the Battleship can probably stand up to most vessels in the world or on the drawing board at present.  The Battlecruiser is by default flawed just because of how it is intended to perform its primary function (scouting with enough firepower to be able to kill anything, or run if it can't) using battleship guns and better than most armored cruiser's speeds (actually better than most any cruiser's speed when the idea was put forth).

Well I do not consider the concept flawed,  the armour of the ships are enough to withstand the secondaries of enemy battleships and mains of enemy armoured cruisers leavening the fight to be one of main guns, and she packs more large guns then all but the most modern battleships. With her speed over extended distances, they would be more then capable to avoid those. Also the speed allows them to close with more heavily armoured ships, cutting the distance to a range were both ships guns have an equal chance of penetrating the other sides armour. They are not scouts, they are main line ships.

[Korpen]

Current battlecruiser designs are not true battlecruisers but more like fast battleships. They just don't have the speed to run down Swiss Cruisers or even the Swiss Super Cruisers, and once the Constitutions get converted to Oil firing... Waste of money in my opinion. You either build a BC or you don't.

Well the few remaining Swiss cruisers are outside rules so nothing can be done about them speed wise, and these BCs are capable to outfight every Swiss ships afloat, with the possible exception of one of the ex-orange ships.
And giving the constitutions oil firing will not really increase their speed by any significant amount, at most you could get about 1kts more out of them, if you change the turbines as well (and they are still afloat by then). And with only half the real firepower, they would not be much of a match for a ship with twice as many main guns.

[The Rock Doctor]

I think that in both cases, a slight increase in size (~5-10%) would probably allow for improved characteristics such as steadiness and higher freeboard.  Considering that you will probably have these ships in operation for twenty years or more, I'd recommend you make the most of them.

The deck break on your designs ought to be around 2.4 - 2.5 metres, not 2.0 metres, as it implies either complicated internal arrangements or a crew of vertically challenged Dutchmen.

I think the BC is, in fact, a true battlecruiser - although smaller than Invincible, her protection, armament, and speed are comparable.  The secondaries are fine with me - they ought to be heavy enough and with sufficient rate of fire to take out torpedo-boats.  If a cruiser is the problem, that's what the main battery or cruiser escorts are for.

On the whole, I'd be thinking of two battlecruisers for the NEI area before I went with a battleship, but ask me after the war is over.

They just don't have the speed to run down Swiss Cruisers or even the Swiss Super Cruisers

This is only a problem if any of the Swiss cruisers or super cruisers survive the current war; two have already been sunk.

[Carthaginian]

Current battlecruiser designs are not true battlecruisers but more like fast battleships. They just don't have the speed to run down Swiss Cruisers or even the Swiss Super Cruisers, and once the Constitutions get converted to Oil firing... Waste of money in my opinion. You either build a BC or you don't.

There won't be any more 'Swiss Super Cruisers' very soon. I could easily have a design ready by Dec 1909 that will be the equal of any of them. In fact, MOST nations can do that now. And since the ability to have that kind of SHP isn't available to anyone anymore until they get the requisite engine tech... well, they are like as not a dead breed.

[Korpen]

I think that in both cases, a slight increase in size (~5-10%) would probably allow for improved characteristics such as steadiness and higher freeboard.  Considering that you will probably have these ships in operation for twenty years or more, I'd recommend you make the most of them.

That is were the devil is, as when all the big stuff is put into the design, just a little bit tonnage will allow you to put on just the extra armour you want, or increase the freeboard just so much...
And then I am looking at a 18kton design...
So I did restrict myself to 14kton as that is the max I think I can afford, two such ships will eat up more then half my BPs under their construction.
Then again, just one or two hundred ton extra cannot hurt much...

The deck break on your designs ought to be around 2.4 - 2.5 metres, not 2.0 metres, as it implies either complicated internal arrangements or a crew of vertically challenged Dutchmen.

Neither design got any hull break, they are both flushed deck, but with a raising hull line.

I think the BC is, in fact, a true battlecruiser - although smaller than Invincible, her protection, armament, and speed are comparable.  The secondaries are fine with me - they ought to be heavy enough and with sufficient rate of fire to take out torpedo-boats.  If a cruiser is the problem, that's what the main battery or cruiser escorts are for.

So far 12cm guns have been quite effective against enemy TBs, and the smaller calibre allows for more barrels, something considered more valuable then weight of shell.

[Korpen]

The French point of view on the Wilhelmina der Nederlanden proposal.

The long range and high speed of these ships have advantages for a large widespread empire as the Netherlands.  But it sacrifices the ability to take a punch and keep on going. Especialy because the oil firing. Coal fired ships have a larger damage soak capacity.

Maybe, but the ships are intended mainly for Asian service, were there are plenty of oil and refineries, but very little good coal close by, so the oil firing is dictated mainly be the greater fuel security it offers.

The stepped hull and the low positively angled bow are invitations for green water over the bow, and therefor over the forward main guns.
The wet forward is compounded by the "adequate" room for everything.
It's like living  in an appartment for a family, but then with 4 adults. The wet forward and the fact everybody and thing has "just" enough space combined with the long range will wreak havoc on the crew moral.
It's unimaginable that a modern French Marine National vessel doesn't have things like individual heads for the officers rooms. Just to give an example.

The ships is not particularly wet, and the quite substantial flare (not visible on the drawing) will hopefully help prevent the flooding of the turrets. And compared to what hardy Dutch sailors are used to, she will be like a fist class liner when it comes to accommodations!
But a more angled bow should defiantly be taken under consideration.

The business end of this large ship, the main guns. All 10 of them. There is a distinct advantage by having a lot of large guns.
But isn't this offset by raising the B and Y turrets? It means a huge slab of armor rises trough the armor deck. To what benefit, having a 4 gun straight forward or astern line of fire. With a course change of 25° all deck level guns, from bow to stern  can engage. Just a swing of the rudder, or 100's of tons of expensive, exposed magazine waiting to be hit.

The main advantage of the raised turrets are not for/aft firing arcs, but the fact that is allows for a shorter, better protected citadel. Putting all five turrets flush with the deck would require a 20m longer citadel, and about 20% less armour on it, something the less weight in barbarette armour do not compensate. Also it would require a longer hull, and then the ships would no longer be able to use existing facilities in the Dutch NOI bases.

But the very feeble secundary, and only other guns, the strange sized 120mm casemated peashooters are to small to engage cruisers, and to large to keep dedicated torpedo boat attacks at bay.

Peashooters work well against tin ships. ;)

Thanks allot for the feedback, i love it ;)

[Desertfox]

There won't be any more 'Swiss Super Cruisers' very soon. I could easily have a design ready by Dec 1909 that will be the equal of any of them. In fact, MOST nations can do that now. And since the ability to have that kind of SHP isn't available to anyone anymore until they get the requisite engine tech... well, they are like as not a dead breed.

True, but the jump from a Constitution to an Invincible is a lot less than the jump from S&G to Invincible. The current BCs being built just don't have the edge required. Replace S&G with Consti & Alliance at the Falkands, and it might just end with a German victory.

[The Rock Doctor]

I don't know - DKB-Scharnhorst seems to have had the necessary edge on them. 

The Dutch design trades armor for firepower compared to Alliance/Connie, and are probably around equalish.  Question will be whether designing against Swiss supercruisers is the appropriate course for the Dutch in 1909.

[Ithekro]

Well there are still the Firanji Super Cruisers if the Swiss ones are nuetralized.

[The Rock Doctor]

Given recent rhetoric, I reckon the Dutch should design their battlecruisers with one eye on the latest Iberian armored cruisers. 

[Korpen]

Given recent rhetoric, I reckon the Dutch should design their battlecruisers with one eye on the latest Iberian armored cruisers. 

Actually, that is what I have done.
The most likely opponents for the Netherlands (apart from the New Swiss) are after all the Swiss-aligned powers, Iberia and Oranje.

The BCs are equal the the Iberian ships in speed and armour, and superior in firepower.

[The Rock Doctor]

How do they line up compared to Orange designs?  I recall a fairly fast battleship being planned.

It's interesting that the trend at the moment is for battlecruisers in the 14,000 to 16,000 t (light range) - Scharnhorst, Shadowfax, this one...meanwhile, I'm only contemplating something in the 24,000 t (light) range.

Incidently - is that single torpedo tube on the battlecruiser intentional, or accidental?

[Korpen]

How do they line up compared to Orange designs?  I recall a fairly fast battleship being planned.

It's interesting that the trend at the moment is for battlecruisers in the 14,000 to 16,000 t (light range) - Scharnhorst, Shadowfax, this one...meanwhile, I'm only contemplating something in the 24,000 t (light) range.

Incidently - is that single torpedo tube on the battlecruiser intentional, or accidental?

It is intentional, it is a pure coup-the-crace weapon, as a pair of BC might be called on to operate in a more independent role, so there might not be a TB available to put a torpedo or two into a enemy ship crippled by gunfire.

Far as I know Oranje have one 23kts BB under construction, and yes that ship could defeat a BC, but as it is 8000ton larger, anything else would be surprising.

Wilhelmina would be the response to that ship, as she got a massive advantage in firepower.