Capital ships design studies from the Netherlands

[Ithekro]

She's got nice firepower, but poor aft firing arcs.  Also a glass jaw if she engages even the 13.4" gun armed battleships.  The 12" gunned vessels maybe have difficulty in penetrating the belt armor or deck armor.  The 14" gunned warships shouldn't have much problem at "normal" combat ranges.

However the leap towards 15" guns will of cause lead to even larger guns...and thicker armor.  The speed and range issue will be dependent on the countries tactical and strategic mindset I think.  (Means Rohan will need to look into those 15.5" guns more seriously than before).

[Blooded]

Hello,

That secret research rule was abandoned.
And yes, developing a gun take 2 years. Of course it could have been hidden in the 'general expenses' or whatever category.

First I heard of the secret research being abandoned. When was this and why are people still doing it?

What do you mean by 'hidden'. Gun research is research and should be listed and accounted for in the Research Section and budget of the report. Unless you are suggesting that it does not come from Research funding, if that is the case I'll be pissed as I have been funding guns from it since 1908.

Maybe there should be less 'Fog of War' in the reports. I am somewhat guilty as well since I don't list where I am getting some techs from and such. In trying to decipher others Reports, I cannot often account for where monies and such are coming from. We really don't scrutinize reports much, but when I have tried it is very easy to get lost.

They lasted two years, but BP expansion gave me more research money midway.

I could find nothing in 1910(except for a very long term project). 1909 secrets(two) cost $0.5 and lasted 2 halves. There was some integrating secrets(two) in 1911 costing $0.5 and lasting 2 halves. So I can't see where it was done.  ???

[Korpen]

Hello,
I could find nothing in 1910(except for a very long term project). 1909 secrets(two) cost $0.5 and lasted 2 halves. There was some integrating secrets(two) in 1911 costing $0.5 and lasting 2 halves. So I can't see where it was done.  ???

It is because it was done in secret, it is not listed at all.

[Desertfox]

The more people spend on their big shiny toys, the more they lose when their ship eats fish. ;D

Now just imagine a dark stormy night, 8 inch guns at 10 paces...


I'm just wondering, how long untill Yamato appears? 4-5 years?

[Sachmle]

Hello,
I could find nothing in 1910(except for a very long term project). 1909 secrets(two) cost $0.5 and lasted 2 halves. There was some integrating secrets(two) in 1911 costing $0.5 and lasting 2 halves. So I can't see where it was done.  ???

It is because it was done in secret, it is not listed at all.

Basically, if you go through Korpen's HY reports for the last few years he always comes up a few $$ short. Money that was there, doesn't show up in the report, but it doesn't carry over either, this is his "Blackbook" budget. Same way DF built his "Secret" bases.

[Ithekro]

Also in a way like the Shadowfax/Arcadia was paid for and rebuilt starting earlier than what the news might suggest.  The costs (at that time all based in tonnage) were spread out into other projects that forced them all to take a lot longer than normal (a 1,000 tons here, 500 tons there).  All the funds were paid, just not in the open for various reasons.  The end result looks clear and official...the path to get there was not quite so clear.

[Korpen]

She's got nice firepower, but poor aft firing arcs.  Also a glass jaw if she engages even the 13.4" gun armed battleships.  The 12" gunned vessels maybe have difficulty in penetrating the belt armor or deck armor.  The 14" gunned warships shouldn't have much problem at "normal" combat ranges.

Much depends on what one considers "normal". Her belt should be able to stop 13,5" shells at 140hm/15 000 yards, and 356mm shells at 150hm / 16 500 yards. This is one reason for the large ammo load out, to be able to fire at long ranges without fear of running out of ammo.
Also at that kind of ranges her own guns will be able to defeat the armour of most battleships, either belts or deck, and in some (well, most) cases both.

So while she might have a bit of a glass jaw, her firepower is enough to punch trough the armour of battleship at any range were they can hurt her. And with their speed they is less likely to be for forced to fight under unfavourable conditions. :)

However the leap towards 15" guns will of cause lead to even larger guns...and thicker armor.  The speed and range issue will be dependent on the countries tactical and strategic mindset I think.  (Means Rohan will need to look into those 15.5" guns more seriously than before).

Quite possibly, but that is still a few years in the future.

[Borys]

That secret research rule was abandoned.

It was?
Borys

[Korpen]

The more people spend on their big shiny toys, the more they lose when their ship eats fish. ;D

Well if done well, it is the other ones shiny toys that sink.  ;)

Now just imagine a dark stormy night, 8 inch guns at 10 paces...

That is what torpedoes are for, effectively a 10 pace groin kick. But I can agree that at night everyone fight even.

I'm just wondering, how long untill Yamato appears? 4-5 years?

Nah, at least untill 1924, as 1919, as that is the earliest 45cm gun can see service, and it will take five years to build such an gigant.  8)

Btw, does anyone have any views on the internal layout, does it seems sensible?

[Carthaginian]

So... we have HMS Hood running around. Kinda makes building anything anyone else has planned for the next 5 years a moot point, don't it.

While that ship being able to do 27 knots might seem cool,. it's going to meet the same fate as the real HMS Hood if she ever comes up against a ship with 15" guns... or makes the mistake of getting too close to any other ship with a decent 12" gun.

Considering that we all have a practical range limit of 12k yards ATM, I'd say these ships are a BAD IDEA, as at 12k yards (max range for your fire control) any battleship afloat has a good chance of punching a hole in her.

[Valles]

A prime case for 'Speed is Waste'.

OTOH, cramming eight 380s into 25,000 tons with decent handling at those speeds is an impressive piece of design work no matter what one thinks of its guiding principles.

[Korpen]

So... we have HMS Hood running around. Kinda makes building anything anyone else has planned for the next 5 years a moot point, don't it.

Interesting saw no such reactions to the french 38cm gunned ships.
But there is a risk i might have misunderstood you here.

While that ship being able to do 27 knots might seem cool,. it's going to meet the same fate as the real HMS Hood if she ever comes up against a ship with 15" guns... or makes the mistake of getting too close to any other ship with a decent 12" gun.

The reverse is also likely, she got enough firepower to penetrated the armour of all battleships at a range were 12" inch guns are likely to penetrate her armour. So at worst both ships got a equal chance to destroy each other. And if two ships both got that capacity to destroy each other, i would bet on the faster ships that can manoeuvre into tactically advantageous positions.   :D

Considering that we all have a practical range limit of 12k yards ATM, I'd say these ships are a BAD IDEA, as at 12k yards (max range for your fire control) any battleship afloat has a good chance of punching a hole in her.

It is the effective limit, not the maximum limit. Hits can be scored at much longer ranges. To score hits at 50% more range under good conditions should not be outside the realm of possibility, at least not if one use history as a guideline.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Korpen, I beleive you are a bit too optimistic as to the 9,8" belt keeping out 13,5" shells at 15K yards. At Skagerrak didn't the German battlecruisers inflict damage on the British ships  with smaller guns, and at greater range?

Yes, it is MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction - my Seven Turret Wonder has double the chance of hitting your eggshell with sledghammer than vice versa - due to sheer number of shells put in the air.

Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
Korpen, I beleive you are a bit too optimistic as to the 9,8" belt keeping out 13,5" shells at 15K yards. At Skagerrak didn't the German battlecruisers inflict damage on the British ships  with smaller guns, and at greater range?

The inclination does give about 25mm more effective protection; but i checked again, was optimistic, 16 500 -17k yards is proof against 13,5 inch shells.
The range at Skagerack was about the same (14km) but the armour was thinner.

Yes, it is MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction - my Seven Turret Wonder has double the chance of hitting your eggshell with sledghammer than vice versa - due to sheer number of shells put in the air.

Borys

Well, all other thing equal, the larger gun is slightly more accurate. But i grant you rain of shell have its advantages, and the shorter the range the greater the advantage! Your turret park I death to everything below 9km.
My ship is a compromise to fulfil my operational requirement, and aiming for a heavy gun long range fighter seems to me to be the most cost-effective and flexible way of doing things. And it is in line with my previous designs.

[Walter]

So... we have HMS Hood running around. Kinda makes building anything anyone else has planned for the next 5 years a moot point, don't it.

Well, I guess that it is a good thing for me that, unlike Wesworld where I have planned everything up to 1940 and roughly planned everything up to 1943, I have absolutely nothing planned for Japan here in the couple of years and I pretty much plan ship construction when I start creating the next report.

I'm just wondering, how long untill Yamato appears? 4-5 years?

You do not have to wait that long for it. Yamato is going to be laid down next quarter. :)

Picture is a slightly modified version of CanisD's picture of his hypothetical fast Yamato. Used with his permission.
Oh wait! This is Navalism, not Wesworld. :D

But seriously, if you have looked at the Japanese ship list, you know that the Yamato and the Musashi already exists. And to properly give an answer to your question, THE Yamato and THE Musashi will appear when I want to build it and no sooner. Any other vessel like Yamato will just be a cheap immitation of the Real Deal. :)

... and anyone who steals the name "Yamato" or "MUsashi" will be sued by the Empire of Japan. :D