1909 Brandenburg GK

[swamphen]

These are the "kolonial großer kreuzers" that will serve as flagships of the Neueguineaflotte and Afrikaflotte. They mount the 240mm/50 Ersatz Model (Model 1908) gun in single-sleeve triple turrets, the first triple turrets to be built by the Reich.

SMS Bismarck
SMS Von der Tann

German Großer Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   9,411 t light; 9,941 t standard; 10,896 t normal; 11,661 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   562.53 ft / 557.74 ft x 68.90 ft x 18.04 ft (normal load)
   171.46 m / 170.00 m x 21.00 m  x 5.50 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (2x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1901 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
     10 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

   Weight of broadside 3,534 lbs / 1,603 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:      5.91" / 150 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:      1.97" / 50 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:      1.97" / 50 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      7.87" / 200 mm   5.12" / 130 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   2nd:      1.97" / 50 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:      0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 36,000 shp / 26,856 Kw = 24.97 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,720 tons) (75% coal)

Complement:
   533 - 693

Cost:
   £0.950 million / $3.801 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 446 tons, 4.1 %
   Armour: 2,851 tons, 26.2 %
      - Belts: 1,304 tons, 12.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 508 tons, 4.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 977 tons, 9.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 1,756 tons, 16.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,233 tons, 38.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,485 tons, 13.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,286 lbs / 6,480 Kg = 33.9 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.58 ft / 4.75 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.58 ft / 4.75 m
      - Stern:         15.58 ft / 4.75 m
      - Average freeboard:      15.94 ft / 4.86 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,818 Square feet or 2,491 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 559 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.05
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[maddox]

Pocket battleship anyone?

[Desertfox]

Nothing I can't handle. Like her!

[swamphen]

Current plans are for two of the class 'firm', with a third 'if resources allow'. However, depending on how things go, additional ships of the class cannot be ruled out - they can be built rather quicker than those 28,000-ton-light Über-Derfflingers.  ;)

Pocket battleship anyone?

Heh, actually the panzerschiffen were slightly in the back of my mind when it came to ship size, but I wanted a 3x2 layout for the main battery. However that required a rather larger ship, while 2x3 allowed the vessel to be under the dictated limit of 10,000 tons light.

Nothing I can't handle.

You say that now...

[maddox]

1 of these ones isn't a big deal for a battleship- painfull, yes, annoying, assuredly, but with a 1 on 1 it delivers 10 000 tons to Davey Jones's locker.

On the other hand, anything except the best armored cruisers will know it was ran over.

And I doubt we'll see this little kickass run around alone.

[P3D]

She is a AC with a bit more guns and an extra 4kts speed. If engages old big ACs 1:1, she wins, if more than one, she lose.

[Desertfox]

Constellation will eat them for lunch. Even Antares should be able to take one on on equal terms, and once the Mirias (ex-Phoenix) arrive they'll totaly outclass her.

I have a similar design Im planning to build only she will be slower and for the Great Lakes.

[Ithekro]

Maybe so, but I image the Brandenburgs being able to built two for one against your supercruisers and heavy cruisers.  This vessel won't do so good against Rohan's new combat cruiser Valandil, but then it would get crushed by the Snowmane.  Fortunately Rohan and Brandenburg are not presently enemies, nor are Swiss and Rohan.  (the Brandenburg ships could also bebuilt at a two to one ratio to the Rohirrim ships....numbers verse size....the Graf Spree found that out personally at the River Plate)

[The Rock Doctor]

No sense in adding to the "Yeah, well, my new ship..." part of the discussion.  I would ask Swampy how he envisions these ships operating if their colonial station is attacked, so I can better understand the armament/armor/speed balance.

[swamphen]

I would ask Swampy how he envisions these ships operating if their colonial station is attacked, so I can better understand the armament/armor/speed balance.

Well it depends on the threat level of the attacking force. Their primary mission is a combination of acting as an administrative centre for the colonial fleet, and providing fire support for ground troops should the natives get restless. (I may wind up equipping the 240/50 Ersatz Model with slightly lighter shells to increase the mv/range for this purpose).

In the event of being engaged by enemy forces, it depends on the threat level. Should the enemy force be inferior (say, for instance, New Zion decides to make a grab for Viktorialand), their job is to stomp it. Against an equal or slightly superior force, their job is to backstop the torpedobooten assigned to whittle it down to size. Against a superior force - i.e. battleships - , they are to hold for as long as possible, try to sting them into going away but if not do as much damage as possible before doing the 'bravely brave Sir Robin' bit. ;)

[Desertfox]

I thought only Swiss ships did that  ;D I see that you too beleive in: Better a live dog than a dead lion!

I gotta whip something up for New Zion...

[Borys]

Ahoj!
From Warhammer Fantasy Battle, a Skaven (ratmen) saying:
- "He who runs away lives to fight another day"

BTW - the Skaven get a bonus to flee distance :D

Borys

[swamphen]

Ships cost money to build, crews cost money to train. Neither does the Reich any good if they're in Herr Davy Jones' service. ;)

(Prepare for a PM on NZ fleet ideas...)

[swamphen]

Revised design; All Oil Firing, draught/BC/freeboard fiddled with (end result extra freeboard and an extra ~500t light), nearly 2 knots speed added, slightly thinned turret armor (-10mm), extra range, stern torpedo tube added.

GK09, German Großer Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   9,911 t light; 10,444 t standard; 11,347 t normal; 12,068 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   563.39 ft / 557.74 ft x 68.90 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   171.72 m / 170.00 m x 21.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (2x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1901 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

   Weight of broadside 3,490 lbs / 1,583 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

   1 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedo tube
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:      5.91" / 150 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:      1.97" / 50 mm   196.85 ft / 60.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:      1.97" / 50 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      7.87" / 200 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      4.72" / 120 mm
   2nd:      1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   3rd:      0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 26.81 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,624 tons)

Complement:
   549 - 714

Cost:
   £1.023 million / $4.092 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 441 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 2,831 tons, 24.9 %
      - Belts: 1,367 tons, 12.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 458 tons, 4.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 954 tons, 8.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,182 tons, 19.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,342 tons, 38.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,436 tons, 12.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 115 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,363 lbs / 6,061 Kg = 31.7 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 14.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         27.07 ft / 8.25 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):      17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:         16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.48 ft / 5.33 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,199 Square feet or 2,434 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 562 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.25
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

The range is a bit low for such a large cruiser with oil-firing.
Secondaries: you might want to go with just 88mm guns, against DDs it is enough, against larger ships you have the 9.4". 4x15cm on a side is a bit weak.
The 50mm upper armor can be penetrated even by 4" common shells.

1 above water TT?