Glorious French cruisers

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Armament:
      4 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns in single mounts, 143,30lbs / 65,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns in single mounts, 143,30lbs / 65,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships

This are not the fastest training nor the fastest firing of guns ... good for BB casemattes, but not for open mounts on small cruisers.
Not that the 5,5" QF is any better - with 65kg fixed shell+cartridge weight ...

Borys

[maddox]

The 140mm QF is a very common French naval gun for the N-verse. 
The other gun I could use is the rarely used 105. What lacks the punch to sink thing larger than a DD.

In effect, the rattlesnake derivate, Demarce, is seen as a cheaper successor on the Ville Class Armored cruisers.

But, if I replace the 165mm guns, I could put on a wagonload of 105's, what makes them good as a screening cruiser for the main force. But less usefull as lone raider , nor something that can hurt a larger ship. 
By removing the 4 side 165's and substituting them with 8 105's, replacing the torpedo tubes to submerged get the the room makes this ship a "better" allrounder.

Demarce, France protected cruiser laid down 1909 (Engine 1910)

Displacement:
   4.784 t light; 5.023 t standard; 5.938 t normal; 6.671 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   470,00 ft / 470,00 ft x 50,00 ft x 19,00 ft (normal load)
   143,26 m / 143,26 m x 15,24 m  x 5,79 m

Armament:
      4 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns in single mounts, 143,30lbs / 65,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 39,68lbs / 18,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 974 lbs / 442 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,50" / 89 mm   305,00 ft / 92,96 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3,00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21.253 shp / 15.854 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.648 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   337 - 439

Cost:
   £0,399 million / $1,595 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 114 tons, 1,9%
   Armour: 1.417 tons, 23,9%
      - Belts: 491 tons, 8,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 62 tons, 1,0%
      - Armour Deck: 843 tons, 14,2%
      - Conning Tower: 21 tons, 0,4%
   Machinery: 966 tons, 16,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.167 tons, 36,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.155 tons, 19,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9.735 lbs / 4.416 Kg = 71,0 x 6,5 " / 165 mm shells or 1,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
   Metacentric height 2,4 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 13,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,466
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,40 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,48 ft / 5,63 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,5%
   Waterplane Area: 15.186 Square feet or 1.411 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 391 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,10
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Korpen]

The 140mm QF is a very common French naval gun for the N-verse. 
The other gun I could use is the rarely used 105. What lacks the punch to sink thing larger than a DD.

In effect, the rattlesnake derivate, Demarce, is seen as a cheaper successor on the Ville Class Armored cruisers.

But, if I replace the 165mm guns, I could put on a wagonload of 105's, what makes them good as a screening cruiser for the main force. But less usefull as lone raider , nor something that can hurt a larger ship. 
By removing the 4 side 165's and substituting them with 8 105's, replacing the torpedo tubes to submerged get the the room makes this ship a "better" allrounder.

Is the 165mm guns mounted back to back, or side by side?
I think she is an improvement, the larger number of guns makes her more flexible then the first draft.

[maddox]

The 165's are  placed behind each other, so the most angles can be attained. I even tought about setting them closer to each other, so the gun more to the center has to swing the barrel up to get past the forward (or stern) gun. But that is a bad idea. 
Pure frontal fire isn't that important to the N-verse French naval doctrine.
"My" admirals see more in an oblique approach so all guns can be unmasked.

[P3D]

Way too thick armored deck. 1-1.5" at most. Battleships has less.

[maddox]

It's a hold over from the Gloires.   Originaly I did use the Rattlesnake SS file ,and put all of the armor allowance in deck armor, so she became a real protected cruiser.

From there I started juggling. And now she's a "light armored cruiser", classified as protected cruiser.

And yes, BB's have less armor, still, the incredible thick dech armor of the Gloires worked too.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Ze mixed version c'est better.

Borys

[maddox]

Why is it better? 

The broadside weight lowers.  The more flexible 4 deck mounted torpedo tubes are replaced by underwater tubes.
The invincible deck armor diminished. And so on....

[Korpen]

Why is it better? 

The broadside weight lowers.  The more flexible 4 deck mounted torpedo tubes are replaced by underwater tubes.
The invincible deck armor diminished. And so on....

But the effective throw weight is not much lower, and the 10cm guns are superior against small TBs, and just as efficient against light cruisers.
The thick deck only protects against instantly critical damage, it does not give a good protection against progressive flooding. So if a ship without a belt suffers waterline damage she will have to slow down or risk ripping herself apart.

The advantage of the submerged tubes are that they are much better protected, and as they can be loaded just before action, it is possible to adjust their running depth to suit the target.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I agree with Korpen - the 105's will put more metal in the air (6x4 inch puts more metal in the air than 6x4,7 inch, BTW).
A 1,5 inch deck is plenty. But if the French like thick decks ...

Borys

[maddox]

This better?

Demarce, France protected cruiser laid down 1909 (Engine 1910)

Displacement:
   4.784 t light; 5.023 t standard; 5.938 t normal; 6.671 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   470,00 ft / 470,00 ft x 50,00 ft x 19,00 ft (normal load)
   143,26 m / 143,26 m x 15,24 m  x 5,79 m

Armament:
      4 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns in single mounts, 143,30lbs / 65,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 39,68lbs / 18,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 974 lbs / 442 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,50" / 89 mm   390,00 ft / 118,87 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 128% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 3,00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21.253 shp / 15.854 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.648 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   337 - 439

Cost:
   £0,399 million / $1,595 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 114 tons, 1,9%
   Armour: 1.413 tons, 23,8%
      - Belts: 768 tons, 12,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 62 tons, 1,0%
      - Armour Deck: 562 tons, 9,5%
      - Conning Tower: 21 tons, 0,4%
   Machinery: 966 tons, 16,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.171 tons, 36,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.155 tons, 19,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9.737 lbs / 4.417 Kg = 71,0 x 6,5 " / 165 mm shells or 1,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
   Metacentric height 2,4 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 13,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,466
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,40 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,48 ft / 5,63 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,5%
   Waterplane Area: 15.186 Square feet or 1.411 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 392 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,10
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Even better. Slowish, but ... you could do a lot worse than build 8-12 such vessels to patrol the oceans.
Borys

[P3D]

Engine year should be 1909. 70mm guns are unnecessary, keep 2 of them for anti-airship use. Way too slow for an 5000t ship, speed should be at least 26kts. The range can be cut to 6000nm, too.
Also, excessive freeboard. It just provides a larger target. Seakeeping is maxed out.

[The Rock Doctor]

I think the freeboard is reasonable for an ocean-going cruiser.  The high seakeeping rating is partly a function of the lowish speed and fine lines of the hull.

I see the sneaky French are retaining the submerged torpedoes for use against impetuous Swissmen...

[Desertfox]

Which is why I'm going with the 'All Big Gun' Cruiser, no sense getting within range of underwater TTs.