Glorious French cruisers

[Walter]

armor isn't as showy as a ship with a wake at 26 kts or carrying battleship sized guns

So why haven't you ditched the deck armor yet? :D

[Carthaginian]

If the CSA would have colonies....

The CSA would, had Glorious France not eaten up all the available locations. ;)
We are currently actually 'shopping' for some colonial locations.

[Walter]

... with no deck armor...


Gloire, France Unprotected Cruiser laid down 1907

Displacement:
   10,183 t light; 10,952 t standard; 12,897 t normal; 14,452 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   544.62 ft / 544.62 ft x 65.62 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   166.00 m / 166.00 m x 20.00 m  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      6 - 10.83" / 275 mm guns (3x2 guns), 683.43lbs / 310.00kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Main guns limited to end-on fire
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      32 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92.59lbs / 42.00kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships, 8 raised mounts - superfiring
     14 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      12 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      10 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 7,106 lbs / 3,223 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes, 2 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   6.89" / 175 mm      6.89" / 175 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 46,495 shp / 34,685 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,500 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   604 - 786

Cost:
   £1.449 million / $5.795 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 816 tons, 6.3 %
   Armour: 1,160 tons, 9.0 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,160 tons, 9.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 2,906 tons, 22.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,201 tons, 40.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,714 tons, 21.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,289 lbs / 4,214 Kg = 14.6 x 10.8 " / 275 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 14.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.05
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.30 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.34 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Mid (70 %):      21.33 ft / 6.50 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.86 ft / 5.75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,940 Square feet or 2,317 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 658 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.54
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[maddox]

The ships are still protected cruisers. Tradition demands deck armor and coal bunkers on the side to act as the belt.

Otherwise we could call these superdestroyers, and composit strength to .75.

[P3D]

That's a LOT of turtleback armor for the original design BTW.

Problem is that if the ship is loaded light, the turtleback does not reach deep below the waterline - a lucky shot can get below the deck, as waves and the wake exposes unprotected parts.

If the ship is loaded heavy (full bunkers) even a 4" destroyer gun could penetrate the hull and cause flooding over the (sloped) deck, which is not too high above the water in this case.

     |  __
_WL__| /
     |/
     |

[maddox]

Never said these ships were good.  Just showpieces.  Also, just designstudies.....

First the Amble class in use, then the next generation.

[Desertfox]

Interesting concept and one I might just 'borrow' for my own use! After all a Fisher Follie with armor? What a sacrilege! :D

Just consider that against most this ship might work but it is actually pretty vulnerable to NS tactics, which consists of packs of cruisers and destroyers blasting everything unarmored before finising the ship of with torpedoes.

[Earl822]

But how long would a DD, or even most NS LC's be around once they came in range of all those 140mm guns, to say nothing of the main armament.

Also, this ships main armament would make a fair mess of any NS Heavy Cruiser

[The Rock Doctor]

There's only one way to find out...

This "really big protected cruiser"  is a bit of a pain to design counters for.  Foxy may be right about swarms of cruisers and cans piling on to one of these ships, but you'd be needing superior tonnage to get the job done regardless.  I had hoped to avoid battlecruisers for Gran Colombia, but it might have to be done if a few of these ships are zooming around.

[Desertfox]

I actually am not worried about this ship. Yes she is a pain to counter but I am already building a counter. Constellation is faster (27kt), much better armored (3" deck, 7" belt), and has a similar armament (8x8").  And with my emphasis in long range fire Connie would have the advantage unless the range closed to 5.5" range and even then Connie has armor.

As for swarms of DDs, and CLs...I currently have the second largest (only France has more, slightly more) Cruiser and Destroyer Feet in the world, and have at least 200+ ships under 3,000 tons planned in the next few years...

For her role of showing of as a colonial cruiser, she is perfect. For scouting she reminds me of the original Lexington. But for meeting an equal in battle she will need exceptional fire control or she will be toast.

[Borys]

laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   10 535 t light; 11 170 t standard; 12 921 t normal; 14 322 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   550,00 ft / 550,00 ft x 65,00 ft x 23,00 ft (normal load)
   167,64 m / 167,64 m x 19,81 m  x 7,01 m

Armament:
      4 - 10,90" / 277 mm guns (2x2 guns), 683,43lbs / 310,00kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      26 - 5,50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      10 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5 184 lbs / 2 352 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   6 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   20,00 ft / 6,10 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 112% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   3,00" / 76 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 46 273 shp / 34 520 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 152 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   605 - 787

Cost:
   £1,196 million / $4,785 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 599 tons, 4,6%
   Armour: 2 937 tons, 22,7%
      - Belts: 665 tons, 5,1%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 793 tons, 6,1%
      - Armour Deck: 1 385 tons, 10,7%
      - Conning Tower: 95 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 2 314 tons, 17,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 535 tons, 35,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 386 tons, 18,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13 019 lbs / 5 905 Kg = 20,1 x 10,9 " / 277 mm shells or 1,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
   Metacentric height 3,7 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 14,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,46 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25,80 ft / 7,86 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   16,42 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      16,42 ft / 5,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,42 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,42 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,17 ft / 5,23 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129,0%
   Waterplane Area: 24 950 Square feet or 2 318 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 583 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,40
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Ithekro]

If one were to follow the British Large Protected Cruiser program, these ships should have 6 inches of deck armor and no belts.  ;D

[Desertfox]

I am getting all sorts of truly insane ideas, not that my ideas where sane in the first place...Ah Fisher would be proud. Dont worry Walter, someone WILL build an Unprotected Cruiser...

[maddox]

One of the idiotic ideas to rebuild Gloire.

A refit allows the adding of a torpedo blister and a new bow, and the overhaul on the engines can bring it up the rule of 1895 VTE= build 1900-
The 140 mm and 70mm guns in the casemates got replaced with the 140mm QF gun with heavy shell.
20 deck mounted 70 mm QF guns are squized in anywere a spot is found
Increased misc weight is partialy used to mount a better Marconi instalation.

Gloire, France large protected cruiser laid down 1895 (Engine 1900)
refit 1907

Displacement:
   12.406 t light; 13.142 t standard; 15.426 t normal; 17.254 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   521,49 ft / 520,00 ft x 70,00 ft (Bulges 76,00 ft) x 27,00 ft (normal load)
   158,95 m / 158,50 m x 21,34 m (Bulges 23,16 m)  x 8,23 m

Armament:
      2 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns in single mounts, 634,55lbs / 287,83kg shells, 1895 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      32 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in any sea
      20 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
      16 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1895 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4.492 lbs / 2.038 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      6,00" / 152 mm

   - Armour deck: 6,00" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 27.115 ihp / 20.228 Kw = 21,90 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.112 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   691 - 899

Cost:
   £1,463 million / $5,853 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 526 tons, 3,4%
   Armour: 3.075 tons, 19,9%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 208 tons, 1,3%
      - Armour Deck: 2.707 tons, 17,5%
      - Conning Tower: 160 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 4.195 tons, 27,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.310 tons, 27,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.021 tons, 19,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9.850 lbs / 4.468 Kg = 15,5 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 1,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,55
   Metacentric height 6,1 ft / 1,9 m
   Roll period: 12,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,16
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,30

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,506
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,84 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,80 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17,00 ft / 5,18 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   17,00 ft / 5,18 m (12,00 ft / 3,66 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
      - Stern:      10,00 ft / 3,05 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,35 ft / 3,76 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 121,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77,0%
   Waterplane Area: 24.386 Square feet or 2.265 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 581 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,22
      - Overall: 1,01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[maddox]

With the plans and a live example of the exellent  CSA Rattlesnake class cruiser, france sees fit copy these ships, with, of course changes in armor and armament.
Also, by lack of suitable sources of oil, reverted to Coal fired boilers.
Thanks to the still standing deals on engines, newer UKN turbine plans are aquired.

Demarce, France protected cruiser laid down 1909 (Engine 1910)

Displacement:
   4.881 t light; 5.149 t standard; 5.938 t normal; 6.570 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   470,00 ft / 470,00 ft x 50,00 ft x 19,00 ft (normal load)
   143,26 m / 143,26 m x 15,24 m  x 5,79 m

Armament:
      4 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns in single mounts, 143,30lbs / 65,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 6,50" / 165 mm guns in single mounts, 143,30lbs / 65,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 1.230 lbs / 558 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   305,00 ft / 92,96 m   8,49 ft / 2,59 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 3,00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21.253 shp / 15.854 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.420 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   337 - 439

Cost:
   £0,430 million / $1,720 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 148 tons, 2,5%
   Armour: 1.419 tons, 23,9%
      - Belts: 216 tons, 3,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 58 tons, 1,0%
      - Armour Deck: 1.124 tons, 18,9%
      - Conning Tower: 21 tons, 0,4%
   Machinery: 966 tons, 16,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.268 tons, 38,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.058 tons, 17,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 1,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9.879 lbs / 4.481 Kg = 72,1 x 6,5 " / 165 mm shells or 1,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
   Metacentric height 2,3 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 13,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,77
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,466
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,40 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,48 ft / 5,63 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138,1%
   Waterplane Area: 15.186 Square feet or 1.411 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 84 lbs/sq ft or 410 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,19
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather