Design Competition: 2000 t Destroyer

Nobody · June 25, 2010, 03:09:51 AM

Since I got the 1918 DD tech, I should lay down some of them in 1920, shouldn't I?

So how would your 2000 t DD design look like?

Preferred would be a ship which

fits into a type 1 slip/dock
is fast, 34 to 35 knots would be my dream

And this is my very first attempt:
2000 t Destroyer, Orange large Destroyer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   1.981 t light; 2.064 t standard; 2.563 t normal; 2.962 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   459,32 ft / 459,32 ft x 39,37 ft x 11,81 ft (normal load)
   140,00 m / 140,00 m x 12,00 m x 3,60 m

Armament:
5 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62,50lbs / 28,35kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
2 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns in single mounts, 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 367 lbs / 166 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 37.997 shp / 28.346 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 4.000nm at 20,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 898 tons

Complement:
   179 - 234

Cost:
   £0,651 million / $2,604 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 46 tons, 1,8%
   Machinery: 1.197 tons, 46,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 589 tons, 23,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 582 tons, 22,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 149 tons, 5,8%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     647 lbs / 293 Kg = 10,4 x 5,0 " / 127 mm shells or 0,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,41
   Metacentric height 2,3 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 11,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,420
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      20,34 ft / 6,20 m
     - Forecastle (20%):   15,09 ft / 4,60 m
     - Mid (42%):      14,76 ft / 4,50 m (10,17 ft / 3,10 m aft of break)
     - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,17 ft / 3,10 m
     - Stern:      10,83 ft / 3,30 m
     - Average freeboard:   12,67 ft / 3,86 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98,2%
   Waterplane Area: 11.274 Square feet or 1.047 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 81%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 33 lbs/sq ft or 162 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 0,52
      - Overall: 0,50
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

25 t FC
25 t Radio
25 t Sonar
48 t Torpedos (8+16)
15 t Dept Charges (60?)
11 t fluff

ctwaterman · June 25, 2010, 04:28:30 AM

You did a pretty good Job your Trial Speed is 32.5 knots only a .5 knot bonus from the calculator.... :'(

I honestly dont know how to get a Destroyer out of SS that isnt dangerously undstable in high seas

Guinness · June 25, 2010, 07:10:07 AM

A 2000 ton ship does not need 4 3in AA guns. Indeed I think it would be difficult to fit them and the 5 main guns on a ship this size, along with so many tubes. What it does need is some sort of AA autocannon, I think. If one is willing to accept historical freeboard heights, you get something like this:

Quote

DD Concept, Orange Republic Destroyer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   2,000 t light; 2,074 t standard; 2,305 t normal; 2,489 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   355.97 ft / 347.77 ft x 36.75 ft x 12.14 ft (normal load)
   108.50 m / 106.00 m x 11.20 m x 3.70 m

Armament:
5 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
1 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline amidships
1 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline amidships, 1 raised gun
2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 328 lbs / 149 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.59" / 15 mm     -           -

- Conning tower: 0.59" / 15 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 58,000 shp / 43,268 Kw = 33.90 kts
   Range 3,770nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 416 tons

Complement:
   166 - 216

Cost:
   £0.717 million / $2.870 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 41 tons, 1.8 %
   Armour: 11 tons, 0.5 %
     - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Armament: 8 tons, 0.4 %
     - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 1,422 tons, 61.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 468 tons, 20.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 305 tons, 13.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 58 tons, 2.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     342 lbs / 155 Kg = 5.5 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.30
   Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 11.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.52

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.520
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.46 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 95
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19.33 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      18.70 ft / 5.70 m
     - Forecastle (17 %):   17.72 ft / 5.40 m
     - Mid (40 %):      17.06 ft / 5.20 m (9.19 ft / 2.80 m aft of break)
     - Quarterdeck (9 %):   9.19 ft / 2.80 m
     - Stern:      9.19 ft / 2.80 m
     - Average freeboard:   12.59 ft / 3.84 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 215.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,672 Square feet or 806 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 52 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 33 lbs/sq ft or 163 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.88
      - Overall: 0.53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

Misc Weights:
12t: 6 21" Torpedoes
25t: Fire control
1t: Depth Charges(4)
10t: Minesweeping Gear
10t: Misc equipment and reserve

Range at max speed: 339nm or 10 hours
Trial Speed: 34.5 knots

miketr · June 25, 2010, 07:16:20 AM

My attempt

QuoteDD-1920 (L), Iberia Destroyer Leader laid down 1920

Displacement:
   1,999 t light; 2,073 t standard; 2,300 t normal; 2,481 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   377.30 ft / 377.30 ft x 37.73 ft x 12.57 ft (normal load)
   115.00 m / 115.00 m x 11.50 m x 3.83 m

Armament:
6 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (3x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
4 - 0.49" / 12.5 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 329 lbs / 149 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   12 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm     -           -
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm     -           -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm     -           -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 49,458 shp / 36,896 Kw = 33.50 kts
   Range 6,300nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 408 tons

Complement:
   165 - 215

Cost:
   £0.677 million / $2.709 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 41 tons, 1.8 %
   Armour: 14 tons, 0.6 %
     - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Armament: 14 tons, 0.6 %
     - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 1,300 tons, 56.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 544 tons, 23.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 301 tons, 13.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 4.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     441 lbs / 200 Kg = 8.4 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 12.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.84

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 83
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      15.75 ft / 4.80 m
     - Forecastle (20 %):   15.09 ft / 4.60 m
     - Mid (50 %):      14.11 ft / 4.30 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.45 ft / 4.10 m
     - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Average freeboard:   14.27 ft / 4.35 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 200.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 62.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,080 Square feet or 844 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 59 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 166 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.16
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

DD-FC= 25 tons
Long Range Radio = 25 tons
2 ton Torpedos 3 x 4 x 2 tons = 24 tons
30 Depth Charges = 10 tons
Construction reserve = 16 tons

Trial Speed = 34 Knots

Kaiser Kirk · June 25, 2010, 08:48:36 AM

Ahh the perils of checking posts while at work. While I expect my Falke class could easily be modified to suit - it's 32 kts now, delete the 25% coal and add 1920 engines, push the freeboard up and/or draft slightly down... but I likely can't try until tomorrow :(

Jefgte · June 25, 2010, 09:13:51 AM

NUS choices are very similar than Iberia for armament & speed/range

but NUS Admiralty did't accept

Quote...Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather...

miketr · June 25, 2010, 09:22:29 AM

Quote from: Jefgte on June 25, 2010, 09:13:51 AM
NUS choices are very similar than Iberia for armament & speed/range

but NUS Admiralty did't accept
Quote...Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather...

As the mods pointed out DD's and TB's are to in a sense a different standard. They aren't cruisers or battleships. What wouldn't be acceptable for the later is for the former.

Michael

TexanCowboy · June 25, 2010, 10:16:02 AM

All the ship's posted here have ridiciously high ranges for historical destroyers and destroyer leaders at this time period. They also have excessive misc. weight, which isn't needed, because

QuoteFC weight will continue to be part of a ship's miscellaneous weight until you achieve the second level of Fire Control tech (1912) and, in the case of existing ships, then refit those ships. We will amend the tech tree shortly to clarify this.

QuoteAdmiral, Orange Destroyer Leader laid down 1920

Displacement:
   2,000 t light; 2,073 t standard; 2,194 t normal; 2,291 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   332.50 ft / 332.50 ft x 33.25 ft x 13.89 ft (normal load)
   101.35 m / 101.35 m x 10.13 m x 4.23 m

Armament:
5 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 340 lbs / 154 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 57,121 shp / 42,612 Kw = 34.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 218 tons

Complement:
   159 - 208

Cost:
   £0.700 million / $2.799 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 42 tons, 1.9 %
   Machinery: 1,360 tons, 62.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 581 tons, 26.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 194 tons, 8.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     364 lbs / 165 Kg = 5.8 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 12.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.23 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 73 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
     - Forecastle (30 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
     - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     - Average freeboard:   17.18 ft / 5.24 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 215.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 61.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,366 Square feet or 684 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 50 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 165 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 3.31
      - Overall: 0.60
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

ctwaterman · June 25, 2010, 12:36:19 PM

Now Cool Just Cool I need to reprint a few of my Rules Pages so some of my DD designs werent quite so bad and .6 Sea Keeping in a DD is not completely a bad thing. Still not something I want running loose in a Typhoon.

Charles

Nobody · June 25, 2010, 12:39:17 PM

Quote from: TexanCowboy on June 25, 2010, 10:16:02 AM
All the ship's posted here have ridiciously high ranges for historical destroyers and destroyer leaders at this time period. They also have excessive misc. weight, which isn't needed, because
QuoteFC weight will continue to be part of a ship's miscellaneous weight until you achieve the second level of Fire Control tech (1912) and, in the case of existing ships, then refit those ships. We will amend the tech tree shortly to clarify this.

But until that is the case I will have to continue reserving misc for that.

I do think that the weight of additional equipment should be adjusted though.
For example:
25 t could be a decent weight for an early WW2 radar suit, but our current Huelsmeyer-devices only have the size of a suitcase! (http://www.radarworld.org/huelsmeyer.html) Later in WW2 they became smaller again (at least the allied models).
For sonar/hydrophones the situation is similar, for a modern submarine 25 t wouldn't be enough but until the 1950's more than a few tons are way too much, and should depend on the ship-size/-class.
And why does a radio weight 25 tons? except on a battleship were hundreds of meters of cables are used as the antenna.

Guinness · June 25, 2010, 12:40:38 PM

I have in mind a revision of the misc weight rules for a number of items in the future, but have not yet had a chance to distill them and talk to the mods. So for now, design for the rules we have.

Guinness · June 25, 2010, 02:38:22 PM

No, it's stated in a comment detailing previous changes to the rules that have been made. We haven't yet actually updated the rules, so stick with the ruleset we've got until we do that. When we do it, we'll probably actually detail misc weights for items in the ship design guidelines.

P3D · June 25, 2010, 09:35:29 PM

Now, 220t fuel for a 2000t destroyer is kinda low...