Battleship on a Budget?

[Carthaginian]

OK, the CSA is looking for a battleship design for general duty on the high seas and in the Gulf/Caribbean. It's to be well-armed, well-armored, capable of a decent top speed. Range was a secondary concern, but it was intended to be able to cross the Atlantic without refueling. It's primary concern, though, was to be cheap enough to produce in quantity.

I settled on design with 3x2 13.5", 12 6" in casemates, and a few light anti-TB guns as she's never intended to be without an escort. Any helpful hints or suggestions? I know that I don't have all the necessary techs as yet, but I hope to have them by laydown. If not, I'll just modify the Virginia's design. Also, the only Misc Weight is for the Marconi; this isn't intended to be modified much if at all.


Nuevo Leon, Confederate States of America Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   16,250 t light; 17,213 t standard; 18,042 t normal; 18,705 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   485.00 ft / 485.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
   147.83 m / 147.83 m x 24.38 m  x 7.01 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 8,796 lbs / 3,990 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   315.00 ft / 96.01 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   170.00 ft / 51.82 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   315.00 ft / 96.01 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      3.00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,577 shp / 17,588 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,491 tons

Complement:
   777 - 1,011

Cost:
   £1.639 million / $6.558 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,096 tons, 6.1 %
   Armour: 7,672 tons, 42.5 %
      - Belts: 4,066 tons, 22.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,950 tons, 10.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,448 tons, 8.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 207 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 1,072 tons, 5.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,385 tons, 35.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,792 tons, 9.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 0.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24,948 lbs / 11,316 Kg = 20.3 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 17.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.27

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.708
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.06 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.02 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.48 ft / 5.02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,310 Square feet or 2,909 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 153 lbs/sq ft or 745 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.55
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Any tips or hints for improving her? My biggest problem is getting enough new ships (6 if possible) in the water to cover both coasts. I have a decent BB fleet, but they are getting old quickly.

What can I do to make this design better? OR should I start over?
I just don't want to get too big and expensive.

[P3D]

Shallow draft, and very high block coefficient. Draught should be increased to 26-27', and  the beam too - you scarcely have any stability margin (1.04 is bad).
Increase range - it does not cost much with oil firing.
No torpedo bulkhead.
I'd adjust armor thickness to the adjusted values.
Belt is very deep - 24' belt, 16' average freeboard - not leaving a deck for the casemated guns.

[Earl822]

With Helm Hammerhand under build, plus Dreadnought and her sisters also rapidly approaching commission, I'd reckon you need to look for something Bigger, maybe something ala Dreadnought.

[Korpen]

Shallow draft, and very high block coefficient. Draught should be increased to 26-27', and  the beam too - you scarcely have any stability margin (1.04 is bad).
Increase range - it does not cost much with oil firing.
No torpedo bulkhead.
I'd adjust armor thickness to the adjusted values.
Belt is very deep - 24' belt, 16' average freeboard - not leaving a deck for the casemated guns.

Casemated guns are on the deck protected by the uper belt, that is kind of the main function of a upper belt.
Also about half the main belt is below the waterline.

[Carthaginian]

Casemated guns are on the deck protected by the uper belt, that is kind of the main function of a upper belt.
Also about half the main belt is below the waterline.

Yeah. I wanted this ship to be well-protected. A battleship is an investment, and it needs to be well protected. This ship centers on excellent protection for a fair amount of firepower rather than getting a large amount of firepower in the water at once.

Shallow draft, and very high block coefficient. Draught should be increased to 26-27', and  the beam too - you scarcely have any stability margin (1.04 is bad). deck for the casemated guns.

The draft, P3D was shallow and the BC high because the ship was intended for the Gulf/Caribbean... and I wanted them to at least maintain the appearance of being 'shallow draft.' Also, the shallower draft increased survivability a bit.

What would a minimal 'good stability' number be on a ship?

With Helm Hammerhand under build, plus Dreadnought and her sisters also rapidly approaching commission, I'd reckon you need to look for something Bigger, maybe something ala Dreadnought.

Well, Earl, I was hoping that this ship would never have to go up against a Rohan ship; and though it's smaller than Dreadnought and her sisters, they are a little better protected and I could put more in the water. For about the same money, BP and time, I could churn out 4 of these instead of 3 Dreadnoughts.



I'll work on the design a bit and try again. I'm still probably going to keep the ship a bit smaller than the monsters that are getting proposed. I don't think it'd be 'in character' for the CSA to go building something like the historical Orion, even though I could when I get my new drydocks. My navy is supposed to be mostly defensive in nature, and I think that means smaller ships that are made for 'protecting' rather than larger ships meant for attacking.

[Carthaginian]

Another six-gun version- I'm trying to stick to this price/displacement range, even though I know it's a bit small.

Nuevo Leon, Confederate States of America Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   16,500 t light; 17,470 t standard; 18,369 t normal; 19,088 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   484.00 ft / 484.00 ft x 84.00 ft (Bulges 90.00 ft) x 23.00 ft (normal load)
   147.52 m / 147.52 m x 25.60 m (Bulges 27.43 m)  x 7.01 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 8,796 lbs / 3,990 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   314.00 ft / 95.71 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   170.00 ft / 51.82 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   315.00 ft / 96.01 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      3.00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,755 shp / 17,721 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,618 tons

Complement:
   788 - 1,025

Cost:
   £1.649 million / $6.597 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,096 tons, 6.0 %
   Armour: 7,656 tons, 41.7 %
      - Belts: 4,066 tons, 22.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,950 tons, 10.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,430 tons, 7.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 210 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 1,080 tons, 5.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,644 tons, 36.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,869 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 0.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26,038 lbs / 11,811 Kg = 21.2 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 17.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.642
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.38 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.48 ft / 5.02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 30,909 Square feet or 2,871 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 159 lbs/sq ft or 775 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.60
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Earl822]

I have to say I actually prefer the second one, she is certainly the most cost effective.

[Borys]

Purdy!

[maddox]

6 gun version please.  You can build 4 of these for the pricetag of 3 of the bigger ones.

[Carthaginian]

6 gun version please.  You can build 4 of these for the pricetag of 3 of the bigger ones.

That's what I'm trying to stick to... but I haven't gotten too much 'good' input on the design. I don't have a lot of possessions to defend, but I do have three coasts to take care of. I'd much rather build 6 'adequate' ships and have them everywhere I need one rather than 5 excellent chips and a hole in my line.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Six gun version.
Borys

[Earl822]

I now greatly prefer the 6-gun version.

On the design, maybe drop down to 11-12inch barbettes for the main guns, which will give you some strength savings, 14inches is very heavy.

[Carthaginian]

Thanks, Earl...I'll try that.
I'd rather start 'too heavy' and make things lighter than try and find spare weight later on, so I tend to try and overbuild things. I might even invest some of those savings in mounting more 6" guns, or maybe even a few lighter ones if that might help.

[Carthaginian]

OK, hopefully, this should be the final form. I decided to just dump the savings into miscellaneous weight in order to give the ships some room to grow. Survivability went up, and the price stayed in my range: $16.50 and 16.5 BP. Planned for a run of 4 ships, with two to be laid down in 2nd/1907, and at least 2 later. Hopefully, by then I'll be working on better guns and better engines for the next class.



Nuevo Leon, Confederate States of America Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   16,500 t light; 17,470 t standard; 18,369 t normal; 19,088 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   484.00 ft / 484.00 ft x 84.00 ft (Bulges 90.00 ft) x 23.00 ft (normal load)
   147.52 m / 147.52 m x 25.60 m (Bulges 27.43 m)  x 7.01 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 8,796 lbs / 3,990 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   314.00 ft / 95.71 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   170.00 ft / 51.82 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   315.00 ft / 96.01 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      3.00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,755 shp / 17,721 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,618 tons

Complement:
   788 - 1,025

Cost:
   £1.649 million / $6.597 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,096 tons, 6.0 %
   Armour: 7,506 tons, 40.9 %
      - Belts: 4,066 tons, 22.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,800 tons, 9.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,430 tons, 7.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 210 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 1,080 tons, 5.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,659 tons, 36.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,869 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 160 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25,925 lbs / 11,760 Kg = 21.1 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 17.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.642
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.38 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.48 ft / 5.02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 30,909 Square feet or 2,871 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 159 lbs/sq ft or 777 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.62
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

160 tons: Misc Weight
  25 tons: Marconi Set
  20 tons: Flagship Facilities
110 tons: Expansion and Growth

Nuevo Leon
Coahuila
Florida
Arkansas