Habsburger Schlachtschiffe

Borys · April 08, 2007, 04:31:55 AM

Ahoj!
In what I can do I am limited by the size of my slips/drydocks - 170 metres long, and HP/shaft - 12000. The guns are comparable to the British 13,5/45.
The turrets are in echelon, the reinforcement of the hull to carry that weight is represented by the 1,05 hull strenght.
I am not so happy with stability, but I guess you can't have everything.

Planned areas of operations:
- Mediterranean
- Middle and South Atlantic
- Pacific, off the Philippines and China
- Indian Ocean

Borys

laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   21 091 t light; 22 288 t standard; 23 703 t normal; 24 835 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   551,18 ft / 551,18 ft x 87,27 ft x 29,23 ft (normal load)
   168,00 m / 168,00 m x 26,60 m x 8,91 m

Armament:
8 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1 250,00lbs / 566,99kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 110,00lbs / 49,90kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
8 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 11 536 lbs / 5 233 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   150,00 ft / 45,72 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
     1,18 ft / 0,36 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 112% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   40,00 ft / 12,19 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   6,00" / 152 mm   2,00" / 51 mm        -
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm     -           -

- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47 381 shp / 35 346 Kw = 23,50 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 547 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   954 - 1 241

Cost:
   £2,262 million / $9,048 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 419 tons, 6,0%
   Armour: 8 400 tons, 35,4%
     - Belts: 3 819 tons, 16,1%
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 110 tons, 4,7%
     - Armament: 1 985 tons, 8,4%
     - Armour Deck: 1 290 tons, 5,4%
     - Conning Tower: 196 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2 369 tons, 10,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 503 tons, 35,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 612 tons, 11,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24 784 lbs / 11 242 Kg = 20,1 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 4,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,04
   Metacentric height 4,4 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 17,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,69
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,32 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      26,05 ft / 7,94 m
     - Forecastle (35%):   23,79 ft / 7,25 m (16,57 ft / 5,05 m aft of break)
     - Mid (50%):      16,57 ft / 5,05 m
     - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,57 ft / 5,05 m
     - Stern:      16,57 ft / 5,05 m
     - Average freeboard:   19,41 ft / 5,92 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115,3%
   Waterplane Area: 34 853 Square feet or 3 238 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 830 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,78
      - Overall: 1,05
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Walter · April 08, 2007, 04:48:57 AM

Well, Borys. That 1.04 stability is the sacrifice you have to make if you want the "steady gun platform". I usually don't go for the "steady gun platform" when that causes my stability to drob below 1.05. You might sacrifice the 1.05 hullstrength and raise the freeboard a bit. It is possible that you can get to a "steady gun platform" with a stability of 1.05 or a bit more.

Borys · April 08, 2007, 05:00:34 AM

Excellent suggestion, thank you. I ditched the forecastle and raised overal freeboard. I don't want to go for 1,0 hull strenght, as I feel a bit uneasy with 13,5 inch wing turrets.
Borys

laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   21 432 t light; 22 636 t standard; 24 065 t normal; 25 208 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   551,18 ft / 551,18 ft x 87,27 ft x 29,23 ft (normal load)
   168,00 m / 168,00 m x 26,60 m x 8,91 m

Armament:
8 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1 250,00lbs / 566,99kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 110,00lbs / 49,90kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
8 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 11 536 lbs / 5 233 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   150,00 ft / 45,72 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
     1,18 ft / 0,36 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 112% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   40,00 ft / 12,19 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   6,00" / 152 mm   2,00" / 51 mm        -
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm     -           -

- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47 994 shp / 35 803 Kw = 23,50 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 572 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   965 - 1 255

Cost:
   £2,278 million / $9,113 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 419 tons, 5,9%
   Armour: 8 521 tons, 35,4%
     - Belts: 3 821 tons, 15,9%
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 110 tons, 4,6%
     - Armament: 2 092 tons, 8,7%
     - Armour Deck: 1 300 tons, 5,4%
     - Conning Tower: 198 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2 400 tons, 10,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 692 tons, 36,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 633 tons, 10,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27 859 lbs / 12 637 Kg = 22,6 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 4,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
   Metacentric height 4,7 ft / 1,4 m
   Roll period: 16,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,73
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,599
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,32 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
     - Forecastle (35%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
     - Mid (50%):      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
     - Quarterdeck (15%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
     - Stern:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
     - Average freeboard:   21,06 ft / 6,42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136,6%
   Waterplane Area: 35 148 Square feet or 3 265 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 830 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,94
      - Overall: 1,05
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Walter · April 08, 2007, 05:21:07 AM

One other thing I noticed. When you look at the sim reoprt, the 2 inches for "Other gunhouse" for the secondary guns have no effect. For casemate guns, that option is useless. You could easily enter 2,000,000,000,000,000 inches and gain nothing in weight.
The "Other gunhouse" is for above deck only. When you look at SS, you'll see that it says (in order):
- Face/Shield
- Other above deck
- Barbette/Below deck
... so to sim additional armor to the casemates sides, you need to use the "Barbette/Below deck" option.

In my sims, I try to avoid the "x ft / y m Unarmoured ends" in the report. To me that indicates sloppy work on the part of the designers. :D

Any special reason for the 40 feet high torpedo bulkhead?

Walter · April 08, 2007, 05:24:31 AM

... but I just noticed I do the same thing with the "Other gunhouse" wich has probably to do with all those turrets I sim and it has become a habit to enter a thickness there as well. However, I do use the "Barbette/hoist" as well to sim additional armor to the casemate.

Korpen · April 08, 2007, 05:26:34 AM

Quote from: Walter on April 08, 2007, 05:21:07 AM
Any special reason for the 40 feet high torpedo bulkhead?

I would guess he extends the TB up behind the main belt to contain blast and splinter from a shell that penetrates the man/upper belt.

Walter · April 08, 2007, 05:31:47 AM

Maybe so, but when I work with SS, I hate it when SS starts to whine about "Torpedo Bulkhead too tall for hull" (or any other warnings) because I cannot see the HS at that point...
... so I usually sim such armor using either the uper belt (when I use aon armor) or use additional thickness to the main belt.

Borys · April 08, 2007, 05:32:12 AM

Ahoj!
- armoured the lacking 12 inches of hull :);
- gave armour to casematte sides as per instructions;
- the Torpedo Bulkhead extends to Upper belt height, as splinter catcher.

EDITED:
Yes, Korpen got it right. Fome reason SS protests against draught+MB=UB = TB. But that is only one foot and a half difference - I can live with that 40cm gap.

laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   21 697 t light; 22 906 t standard; 24 346 t normal; 25 498 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   551,18 ft / 551,18 ft x 87,27 ft x 29,23 ft (normal load)
   168,00 m / 168,00 m x 26,60 m x 8,91 m

Armament:
8 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1 250,00lbs / 566,99kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 110,00lbs / 49,90kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
8 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 11 536 lbs / 5 233 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   151,00 ft / 46,02 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 112% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   48,00 ft / 14,63 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   6,00" / 152 mm     -         2,00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm     -           -

- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48 472 shp / 36 160 Kw = 23,50 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 591 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   973 - 1 266

Cost:
   £2,291 million / $9,163 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 419 tons, 5,8%
   Armour: 8 761 tons, 36,0%
     - Belts: 3 825 tons, 15,7%
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 332 tons, 5,5%
     - Armament: 2 096 tons, 8,6%
     - Armour Deck: 1 309 tons, 5,4%
     - Conning Tower: 199 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2 424 tons, 10,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 693 tons, 35,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 649 tons, 10,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     28 404 lbs / 12 884 Kg = 23,1 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 4,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
   Metacentric height 4,8 ft / 1,5 m
   Roll period: 16,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,72
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,606
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,32 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
     - Forecastle (35%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
     - Mid (50%):      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
     - Quarterdeck (15%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
     - Stern:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
     - Average freeboard:   21,06 ft / 6,42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136,3%
   Waterplane Area: 35 378 Square feet or 3 287 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 169 lbs/sq ft or 826 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,93
      - Overall: 1,05
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Korpen · April 08, 2007, 05:39:59 AM

Quote from: Borys on April 08, 2007, 05:32:12 AM
Ahoj!
- armoured the lacking 12 inches of hull :);
- gave armour to casematte sides as per instructions;
- the Torpedo Bulkhead extends to Upper belt height, as splinter catcher.

EDITED:
Yes, Korpen got it right. Fome reason SS protests against draught+MB=UB = TB. But that is only one foot and a half difference - I can live with that 40cm gap.

of course mb+draft gets you a too high tb, around half the main belt is below the waterline...

Walter · April 08, 2007, 05:44:28 AM

Quotearmoured the lacking 12 inches of hull

Don't forget, an extremely lucky small caliber shot could just squeeze through that gap and cause serious damage to your ship. :D
Whoops!! Now your enemies can no longer exploit that weakness in your armor anymore. ;D
(Looking at my ships, it seems like I have a gap in my armor to fix as well. ^_^;;)

Quote- gave armour to casematte sides as per instructions;

So did you try entering a ridiculously high number to see what it would give you? :)

Question I have now is: Is there adequate space for the torpedo bulkhead? I ask since you are using 13.5 inch wing turrets. I have none on the Satsuma as I thought the 12 inch wing turrets, their barbettes and the magazines would interfere with the TBH.

Quoteof course mb+draft gets you a too high tb, around half the main belt is below the waterline...

Still it should not give the warning as your hull should be draught+freeboard.

Borys · April 08, 2007, 06:00:20 AM

Quote from: Walter on April 08, 2007, 05:44:28 AM

Question I have now is: Is there adequate space for the torpedo bulkhead? I ask since you are using 13.5 inch wing turrets. I have none on the Satsuma as I thought the 12 inch wing turrets, their barbettes and the magazines would interfere with the TBH.

I do not know. I posed this question at Warship Projects.

Borys

Borys · April 08, 2007, 06:07:55 AM

Ahoj!
Re Satsuma:
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships

Shouldn't this be the other way around,
2x2 on centreline ends, evenly spread,
and,
4x2 on side, all amidships

In other words - Nassau or modified Dreadnaught?

And there are some differences:
- you have VTE whilst I have turbines; VTE take up more space
- you have four turrets (?) two pairs with matching twin one the other side; I have two wing turrets, stagarred, so I can move them further from the beams (I think); I am aware that my barbettes should be larger;

Borys

Walter · April 08, 2007, 06:15:07 AM

Staggered should work then.
Re Satsuma:
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships

... at least that was what the archive site of warships1 gave me. I assume (but could be wrong) that the layout is two twins on the centerline, two twins on sides amidship and singles fore and aft of the twins on the side. Almost the same as the historical Satsuma with the mixed 12 and 10 inch guns, but with 12 inch guns on the sides instead of the 10 inch guns (and four of the turrets being singles).

Borys · April 08, 2007, 06:23:52 AM

Ahoj!
To me (sorry missed the "single mounts" )

8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships

looks like this:

The back-to-back fore turrets are an artifact of my lack of drawing skils :)
Borys

Walter · April 08, 2007, 06:31:23 AM

Yes, the report suggests that but if I were to sim them on the sides, I would have

4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (6 mounts), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships

(note: above is simply edited, not taken from SS file)
"6 mounts". Since I have twin mounts already, I just added the side turrets to it as well. It is not quite correct though.
... seeing as I have 4 out of 5 weapon slots in use, I think might as well sim those 12 inch guns separate. I need to fix that gap in the armor anyway...
:)

Edit: fixed Satsuma entry. It now reads:

4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side ends, evenly spread