Yet another Swiss Ship...

[Desertfox]

With United States and Antares nearly finished, and no more battleships planned I will have a bunch of spare BPs. So here goes another new ship. This one is a cheap inexpensive multi purpose torpedo gunboat/minelayer/destroyer. The ship is design with easiness of changing from one role to another in mind. At least 50 of these will be built. More are not out ofthe question.

The 20 tons of misc weight is divded as such: 5 tons for special quick change fittings, 5 tons minewarfare gear (rails, cranes, sweeping gear etc), 10 tons spare for either torpedoes, extra guns, or mines.

There are 4 stations on the side, each one can take either a single fixed TT, or a sngle 40mm gun. The amidship twin TTs are removable, and the gun after can be changed from a single 4" to a single or twin 40mm. 

Versions:

Standard, 1x4", 1/2x40mm, 2x18" TT (trainable amidship), 10 mines or spare parts.

Gunboat, 2x4", 4x40mm, extra ammo

Torpedo boat, 1x4", 1x40mm, 4x18"/19.7" TT (fixed sides)

Minewarfare, 1x4", 1x40mm, 20 mines or minsweeping equipment

Different combinations of the above can be made.


The specs are for the Standard version, the others whave different amounts of misc weight depending on their weapons load.

M-1 , New Switzerland Multi Purpose Destroyer laid down 1906 (Engine
1909)

Displacement:
   291 t light; 303 t standard; 343 t normal; 376 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   250.00 ft / 250.00 ft x 24.00 ft x 4.45 ft (normal load)
   76.20 m / 76.20 m x 7.32 m  x 1.36 m

Armament (Standard):
      1 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg
shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      1 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg
shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
   Weight of broadside 34 lbs / 15 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 240
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes


Armament (Gunboat):
      2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg
shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg
shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 72 lbs / 33 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 240

Armament (Torpedoboat):
      1 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg
shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      1 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg
shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
   Weight of broadside 34 lbs / 15 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 240
   4 - 19.7" / 500.38 mm above water torpedoes

Armament (Minewarfare):
      1 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg
shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      1 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg
shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
   Weight of broadside 34 lbs / 15 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 240
   20 - 1,000lb Mines or Minesweeping gear


Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,633 shp / 3,456 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 2,400nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 73 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   39 - 51

Cost:
   £0.036 million / $0.145 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 4 tons, 1.2 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.3 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 161 tons, 46.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 105 tons, 30.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 52 tons, 15.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 5.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     144 lbs / 65 Kg = 4.5 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
   Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Mid (50 %):      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarterdeck (25 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m before
break)
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   8.90 ft / 2.71 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 167.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,827 Square feet or 356 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 86 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.84
      - Overall: 0.52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[The Rock Doctor]

I can see the utility of the type in a coastal/defensive role - the freeboard and range not being overly suitable for high seas work. 

I'm not sure a modular approach is period-appropriate - but if it is, I'd be curious to see line drawings reconciling the deck space requirements of the various kits with the permanent fixtures.  Springsharp reckons you're good for deck space but I have some reservations.

[Desertfox]

I got adequate room even with 4 20" torpedoes which really surprised me. Im working on a drawing right now.


And another version of the same ship, now a dedicated Leader. Increased accomodations, no quick change capability (the rear gun can be exchanged for 40mm, and the TT and 40mm removed), no minelaying capability (but does have minesweeping equipment), and a small wireless.

L-1 , New Switzerland Multi Purpose Destroyer Leader laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   297 t light; 313 t standard; 355 t normal; 387 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   250.00 ft / 250.00 ft x 24.00 ft x 4.70 ft (normal load)
   76.20 m / 76.20 m x 7.32 m  x 1.43 m

Armament:
      2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 68 lbs / 31 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 240
   2 - 19.7" / 500.38 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,680 shp / 3,491 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 2,400nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 74 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   40 - 53

Cost:
   £0.040 million / $0.159 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 8 tons, 2.4 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0.6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 158 tons, 44.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 114 tons, 32.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 57 tons, 16.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 14 tons, 3.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     151 lbs / 68 Kg = 4.7 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.42
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 9.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.440
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (30 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Mid (50 %):      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m before break)
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 167.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,797 Square feet or 353 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 90 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.06
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[P3D]

Forget the quick change ability. AFAIK it has no historical precedence at all. And such a light ships should not be used for minesweeping.

If you insist on jack-of-all trades, they will be a bit more expensive to account for all the spare equipment, and due to the increased training requirements in so many fields they will have reduced efficiency in all tasks.

Nevermind that their hull is too fragile and would get damaged from the exploding mines it is sweeping.

[Desertfox]

Still working on the drawing, but the preliminary one showed that if anything I have too much space. I can fit 6x21" torpedo tubes and 2x4" guns, all without  using the 60ft long quarterdeck. That 60ft quarterdeck can be used for all sorts of nefarious ideas, zodiac style comando boats, smoke/gas generators, 1 man blimps...

There is no historical precedent for the quick change but there is a N-verse precedent in my conversion of 8 Fritz into minelayers/sweepers and back to destroyers, by the removal of 1x3" gun and 2xTT. Also one of the problems I had in the war was that I had torpedo boats when I needed gunboats and gunboats when I needed torpedoboats.

All the spare equipment is accounted for in the misc weight. Extra training is only required for minewarfare tasks in which case minewarfare specialists would be on board. Quick change = unbolt torpedo tube, bolt on 40mm gun, whats so hard about that? I have put in 1 ton of misc weight per quick change mount.

As for being too light for minesweeping, I have yet to see a minesweeper over 1,000 tons, with most SEAGOING minesweepers being under 500 tons. Coastal minesweepers seldom displace over 100 tons.

[P3D]

The being light said as it has 0.50 cross-sectional strength - pretty fragile, IMO. Nevermind that 24 knots is far from FAST combatant so do not stretch the rules.

If you want a multipurpose vessel, the training itself will be more expensive, and also their effectiveness in any specific roles will be diminished compared to vessels that are specialists. This is not a debate, I am informing you about it.

And I do not care about N-verse precedent.

Cost: Increase $ cost by 50% and BP cost should be 20t higher than the base version. That would cover it.

[Desertfox]

24 kts right now is fast. In Wesworld where we have 34kt battlecruisers I can understand that, but here where the fastest heavy ship is the 27kt Antares, 24 kts does qualify it as a fast light combatant.

I can understand the increased training cost, but I dont understand reduced effectiveness as increased training will cover that.

Will increase $cost, but I dont see why it needs more BPs, as all the extra stuff is covered by the Misc weight and mines, torpedoes, and ammo are covered by upkeep costs.

[P3D]

24kts is not fast at all. My slow protected cruisers can make 24kts. My destroyers with 1905 engines can make 27kts. DKB is building two ships that can do 24kts.

You do like to cite Wesworld rules so much, could you cite what it defines as fast?

[Walter]

It was agreed that it would be 24 knots or faster...
... but I was never too fond of that.

[Walter]

There is one thing you should remember with "fast"...
I am fairly certain that most of you design your ships as you want them to be. If you want them slow and well armored, you make them slow and well armored. If you want it fast and light armored, you make it fast and light armored. If you want them fast and well armored, you make them big so they can be just that.
I on the other hand (with permission of the moderators) used and simmed the historical Japanese warships as they were (except for the 1903/1904 design and the modified Satsuma). I still have to work on the DDs and TPBs, but the fastest of the bigger ships I have posted at the moment is the Tone at 21.75 knots... and that one is still under construction.
I'd like to know how fast the historical ships from other nations were back in 1905. It is quite possible that what you call a "slow protected cruiser" is actually very fast compared to historical ships of the same size and era.

BTW, data regarding Japan's DDs and TPBs...

Maximum speeds, Destroyers.
Ikazuchi => 1897, 31 knots
Murakumo => 1897, 30 knots
Akatsuki => 1900, 31 knots
Shirakumo => 1901, 31 knots
Harusame => 1902, 29 knots
Asakaze => 1904, 29 knots

Maximum speeds, Torpedo boats

TB-5 => 1888/9?, 20 knots
TB-21 => 1890/1?, 20.75 knots (TB-15/20 21 knots)
TB-22 => 1890/1?, 22.5 knots (TB-31 and later 24 knots)
TB-29 => 1897/8?, 22.5 knots
TB-39 => 1898/9?, 26 knots
TB-50 => 1898/9?, 20 knots
TB-67 => 1900/1?, 23.5 knots
Kotaka => 1885/6?, 19 knots
Hayabusa => 1897/8?, 29 knots
Shirataka => 1899, 28 knots

I would think that those speeds are the absolute maximum they could do so I am actually simming Japan's DDs and TPBs based on engine output rather than the maximum speed.


Regarding those 34 knot Wesworld battlecruisers... I was the one who simmed them (and I call that really fast). I am also the proud owner of the fastest ships with a standard displacement >20,000 tons (carriers Soryu and Hiryu at 34.3 knots) and I could be wrong, but I think that I am also the proud owner of the fastest ships >10,000 tons (carriers Chitose and Chiyoda at 35.5 knots).

[Ithekro]

Jane's listed speeds in 1914:

German light cruisers 1902-1905: 23 - 23.5 knots
German light cruisers 1906: 24.5 knots
German light cruisers 1907 - 1910: 25.5 knots
German light cruisers 1911 - 1914: 28 knots

British light cruisers 1903 - 1912: 25 knots
British light cruisers (late) 1912 - 1914: 30 knots
Fastest British cruiser of other type: 23 knots

American light cruisers 1905: 24 knots

Austrian light cruisers 1908: 26 knots
Austrian light cruisers 1911: 27 knots

Russian light cruisers 1913: 27.5 knots
Russian Jentchug 1903: 24 knots

Italian light cruisers: 1909 - 1914: 28 knots
Italian heavy warships 1905 - 1913: 22.5 knots

French cruisers 1896 - 1907: 21 - 23 knots (goes up and down)

Japanese light cruiser Tone 1905: 23 knots
Japanese light cruisers 1909: 26 knots

[Walter]

You know, with a transom stern, I might be able to get the Tone's speed up to 23 knots... :)
Looking at those speeds around 1905 as well as a couple of designs of the late 90s, I wouldn't call a 24 knot protected cruisers "Slow". In 1905/6 there were quite a few ships around that were not in Janes 1914, ships that were slower than what is given in that list.

[Desertfox]

Here's the picture, the combinations are just some of the possible ones.

[Desertfox]

Noticed, that the ship wouldnt fit in a Type 0 slip, so I redesigned it. I had too much deckspace so that wont be a problem and now it costs 20 tons less.

M-1 , New Switzerland Multi Purpose Destroyer laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   272 t light; 284 t standard; 324 t normal; 355 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   220.00 ft / 220.00 ft x 22.00 ft x 5.20 ft (normal load)
   67.06 m / 67.06 m x 6.71 m  x 1.58 m

Armament:
      1 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      1 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
   Weight of broadside 34 lbs / 15 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 270
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,710 shp / 3,514 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 71 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   37 - 49

Cost:
   £0.035 million / $0.138 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 4 tons, 1.3 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.3 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 153 tons, 47.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 94 tons, 29.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 51 tons, 15.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 6.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     121 lbs / 55 Kg = 3.8 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
   Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 9.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.11
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Mid (50 %):      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarterdeck (25 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m before break)
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   8.90 ft / 2.71 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,087 Square feet or 287 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 62 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 86 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.28
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform