Vilnius Union Ships, 1930+: The Good, The Bad, and the Unseaworthy

[Kaiser Kirk]

I'm cognizant that the wee little carrier Labedz just isn't really big enough to do anything really useful now, and her dimensions make the use of post-1933 aircraft, even in a training capacity doubtful.  Setting aside what I might do with that ship, it raises the question of what to do about carrier training.

Actually at 149m, she's longer than the RN HMS Audacity, the first Escort carrier.
She was converted from a freighter in 1941, and was fighters- only 8, but fighters.
She also was only 15 knots, not 30.

Plus based on the distances the USN wanted for flight deck cruisers, the length is adequate, probably can't park planes forward while landing, but can cycle.

Certainly sounds like it would be adequate for training.

[Kaiser Kirk]

First take on the 1934 battleship.

Tsk tsk, that's like Parthian level armor.

I will note that the foredeck has very thick armor...but no side splinter protection.

Further, the faceplate on the main battery is nearly the same thickness as the main belt, but lacks the decapping plate/spacing/inclined armor.

The curved barbette gets a pass, as the chance of hitting square on is minimal.

[The Rock Doctor]

I'm cognizant that the wee little carrier Labedz just isn't really big enough to do anything really useful now, and her dimensions make the use of post-1933 aircraft, even in a training capacity doubtful.  Setting aside what I might do with that ship, it raises the question of what to do about carrier training.

Actually at 149m, she's longer than the RN HMS Audacity, the first Escort carrier.
She was converted from a freighter in 1941, and was fighters- only 8, but fighters.
She also was only 15 knots, not 30.

Plus based on the distances the USN wanted for flight deck cruisers, the length is adequate, probably can't park planes forward while landing, but can cycle.

Certainly sounds like it would be adequate for training.

I'm not worried about the length of the deck - it's the width of the deck that I think isn't holding up.  Just a fourteen metre beam, so the deck can't be more than 17 or 18 metres at best.

[Kaiser Kirk]

That's probably broad enough to land and take off training aircraft.

Audacity had only a 17.2m beam. Honsho 17.98, so you do seem to be thinner than typical.

There's not a lot to go on, but HMS Vindictive/Cavendish would seem the "minimum" model.
She didn't even have a full flight deck, just tank off and landing.

Of course she was demilitarized under the Treaty of London, so who knows how she would have handled modern aircraft.
formed the 106-foot (32 m) flying-off deck. The 193 by 57 feet (58.8 by 17.4 m) landing deck

So your 17-18m would be comparable.

A Swordfish type with 14m wingspan might be spooked about the island, but
a Gladiator type with a <10m should be fine.
So I'd expect for training it's still viable.

[The Rock Doctor]

A new river gunboat to replace the fairly dated Type 1901 class.

There's a nice (relatively) big gun to make tanks nervous, some decent AA capability, and a small howitzer.  Protection is mainly against splinter and small-arms fire. 

The hull would be wet forward in ocean-going conditions but at worst this thing will only ever be skirting coastlines.  They should be fine on rivers and most lakes, and I have Borys and Ledeper to move them between continents.

Chances are I build two at a time in a single 100m drydock. 


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1933

Displacement:
   104 t light; 114 t standard; 117 t normal; 119 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (118.42 ft / 114.83 ft) x 18.04 ft x (3.28 / 3.33 ft)
   (36.09 m / 35.00 m) x 5.50 m  x (1.00 / 1.01 m)

Armament:
      1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 100 per gun [Note:  Howitzer]
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1933 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 300 per gun
     Dual purpose gun in deck mount, 1933 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
      1 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 60.0 cal gun - 4.18lbs / 1.89kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1933 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      1 raised mount
      4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 4,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1933 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 31 lbs / 14 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   0.79" / 20 mm     74.64 ft / 22.75 m   4.92 ft / 1.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.59" / 15 mm            -
   3rd:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 0.79" / 20 mm
   Forecastle: 0.79" / 20 mm  Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 0.79" / 20 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 402 shp / 300 Kw = 13.73 kts
   Range 490nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4 tons

Complement:
   17 - 23

Cost:
   £0.034 million / $0.134 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 5.6 %
      - Guns: 6 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 43 tons, 36.8 %
      - Belts: 13 tons, 10.9 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 6.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 22 tons, 19.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 12 tons, 10.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 34 tons, 29.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 12 tons, 10.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 9 tons, 7.7 %
      - Hull below water: 4 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 3 tons
      - Above deck: 2 tons

Fittings:
-4t:  Diesel engines (BW)
-2t:  Weight reserve (FD)
-1t:  Searchlight (AD)
-1t:  1930 fire control, such as it is (AD)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     262 lbs / 119 Kg = 20.4 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 10.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.602
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.36 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10.72 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.97 ft / 0.60 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   24.00 %,  9.19 ft / 2.80 m,  7.22 ft / 2.20 m
      - Forward deck:   24.00 %,  7.22 ft / 2.20 m,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m
      - Aft deck:   37.00 %,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m
      - Average freeboard:      6.15 ft / 1.87 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,515 Square feet or 141 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 126 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 87 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.67
      - Longitudinal: 1.85
      - Overall: 0.75
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[The Rock Doctor]

Note that I can also swap the 50mm single for a 25mm twin and an additional 5mm on the waterline armor belt.

[Jefgte]

A new river gunboat to replace the fairly dated Type 1901 class.

There's a nice (relatively) big gun to make tanks nervous, some decent AA capability, and a small howitzer.  Protection is mainly against splinter and small-arms fire.

The hull would be wet forward in ocean-going conditions but at worst this thing will only ever be skirting coastlines.  They should be fine on rivers and most lakes, and I have Borys and Ledeper to move them between continents.

Former players...
Gran Colombia and Peru are far away...

[The Rock Doctor]

Playing around with ideas for 1932-tech cruisers and this is an Arethusa knock-off.  Notionally its job is, like its inspiration, trade protection.  It sacrifices hull strength, a turret and a bit of protection compared to the larger, existing CL types.

On the other hand, it retains the speed and range to operate with fleet units if required, and brings a useful AA battery to bear if so.


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1935

Displacement:
   5,998 t light; 6,342 t standard; 7,175 t normal; 7,841 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (545.52 ft / 531.17 ft) x 52.49 ft x (20.01 / 21.29 ft)
   (166.28 m / 161.90 m) x 16.00 m  x (6.10 / 6.49 m)

Armament:
      6 - 5.91" / 150 mm 50.0 cal guns - 121.25lbs / 55.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 3.94" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.77lbs / 13.96kg shells, 400 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      12 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 4.18lbs / 1.89kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 1,025 lbs / 465 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.54" / 90 mm   345.28 ft / 105.24 m   16.37 ft / 4.99 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 16.00 degrees (positive = in)

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.12" / 130 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.54" / 90 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.59" / 15 mm            -
   3rd:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm  Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 65,013 shp / 48,500 Kw = 32.04 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,499 tons

Complement:
   389 - 506

Cost:
   £2.817 million / $11.267 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 258 tons, 3.6 %
      - Guns: 258 tons, 3.6 %
   Armour: 1,715 tons, 23.9 %
      - Belts: 819 tons, 11.4 %
      - Armament: 199 tons, 2.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 668 tons, 9.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,847 tons, 25.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,885 tons, 26.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,177 tons, 16.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 293 tons, 4.1 %
      - On freeboard deck: 103 tons
      - Above deck: 190 tons

FD:  Probably one plane and a cat, 2x4 torpedoes
AD:  FC, flag, L/R wireless, Huelsmeyer device, nightfighting doodads

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,581 lbs / 2,985 Kg = 63.9 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.35
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and small transom stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.450 / 0.462
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.12 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.80 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  25.92 ft / 7.90 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.45 ft / 5.32 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,199 Square feet or 1,691 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 332 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.72
      - Longitudinal: 1.11
      - Overall: 0.75
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

[Kaiser Kirk]

On the gunboat, nice little ship.
For the early 30s, a 75mm 45 cal is a huge AT weapon :)
Is there a reason the aft 75mm is breechloading and the forward DP? They seem to otherwise be the same gun, both 45cal.  I know I mount a HOW in one of those positions, and that's BL, but ~21cal long.
I would think the 2x25mm AA would be more useful than a single 50mm vs. strafing glide/dive bombing.

I would also think reducing the deck to 10-15mm might allow more belt armor.
Against shore based targets range will be very short, so no plunging fire. There is potential for guns on slopes to fire downwards though, so there's a value there.

The 6000 tonner is fairly robust.
The choice of BL instead of QF seems a likely oversight, but would reduce ROF.

The side armor is 2 decks high, which seems a possible luxury. Cruiser shells can't dive as far.
But since I'm the only one that espouses the madness of listing deck heights, hard to tell what it's covering, I presume +3m to -2m or so.
You don't list the incline math, so the true height isn't clear.
With the Norse using 6" and the Romans 5.5", I wonder at the need for 50mm deck. Though in the 1930s that could also be bomb protection.

[The Rock Doctor]

The aft gun on the gunboat is a howitzer.  Or is supposed to be, at any rate.  I'll have to tweak that.

[The Rock Doctor]

Tweaked a bit on the 1934 battleship, which will be laid down as Johannes Kepler.  They'll be operationally compatible with the Ingenhousz class.

The belt armor is 90mm decapping in front of 350mm.  The 16' inclination means the 4.99 m tall belt protects a vertical height of 4.80 metres, or two deck levels.

I imagine a decapping plate is impractical on the turret face, so just slapped a homogenous 500mm plate on them.

The sketch tweaks the preceding Ingenhousz class, but has a cleaner look since there are fewer secondary and tertiary mounts this time around.


Kepler, Vilnius Union Ship of the Line, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1934

Displacement:
   46,330 t light; 48,857 t standard; 52,336 t normal; 55,119 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (805.31 ft / 787.40 ft) x 108.27 ft (Bulges 114.83 ft) x (31.17 / 32.66 ft)
   (245.46 m / 240.00 m) x 33.00 m (Bulges 35.00 m)  x (9.50 / 9.95 m)

Armament:
      8 - 15.75" / 400 mm 50.0 cal guns - 2,425.09lbs / 1,100.00kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1934 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5.12" / 130 mm 45.0 cal guns - 67.62lbs / 30.67kg shells, 400 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1934 Model
     8 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
      28 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 4.19lbs / 1.90kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1934 Model
     12 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1934 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 20,872 lbs / 9,467 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   17.3" / 440 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   16.37 ft / 4.99 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 16.00 degrees (positive = in)

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      2.95" / 75 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   29.92 ft / 9.12 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 82.02 ft / 25.00 m

   - Hull Bulges:
      0.59" / 15 mm   456.36 ft / 139.10 m   29.20 ft / 8.90 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   19.7" / 500 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      15.0" / 380 mm
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 6.69" / 170 mm
   Forecastle: 5.51" / 140 mm  Quarter deck: 6.69" / 170 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 15.75" / 400 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 120,643 shp / 90,000 Kw = 27.01 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,262 tons

Complement:
   1,729 - 2,249

Cost:
   £19.432 million / $77.729 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 4,075 tons, 7.8 %
      - Guns: 4,075 tons, 7.8 %
   Armour: 20,693 tons, 39.5 %
      - Belts: 6,259 tons, 12.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,673 tons, 3.2 %
      - Bulges: 291 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armament: 3,971 tons, 7.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 8,024 tons, 15.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 475 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,471 tons, 6.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,193 tons, 32.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,007 tons, 11.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 898 tons, 1.7 %
      - On freeboard deck: 198 tons
      - Above deck: 700 tons

Fittings:
-408 t:  1930 fire control (AD)
-50 t:  Redundant L/R wireless (AD)
-25 t:  Huelsmeyer device (AD)
-25 t:  Nightfighting doodads (AD)
-100 t:  Flag facilities (AD)
-60 t:  2 armed scoutplanes and cross-deck catapult (FD)
-92 t and 182 t:  Weight reserve (AD/FD)


Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     91,684 lbs / 41,587 Kg = 47.0 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 17.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 7.1 ft / 2.2 m
   Roll period: 18.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.653
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  31.17 ft / 9.50 m,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Forward deck:   40.00 %,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      23.62 ft / 7.20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 65,307 Square feet or 6,067 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,027 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.21
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[snip]

Ya, that would not be a fun thing to deal with. At least my in-service wagons have the speed advantage, its about all they have going for them.

[Kaiser Kirk]

The parallels to my Arwand are interesting. As these things get bigger and more expensive, the cost of different choices may be pushing a bit of a convergence.

[Jefgte]

440mm => The belt is very thick

[The Rock Doctor]

440mm => The belt is very thick

It is, but it's intended to be a 90mm decapping plate outboard of a 350mm inclined belt.  Not a homogenous slab.