Norse primer

[Kaiser Kirk]

Norse Primer

I am of the opinion that if we can get you to the point where you are exploring making your own Norse designs, that is for the best.

The last Norse designs were termed "placeholders". 
I collected folks designs and reposted them here :
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7863.msg100370.html#msg100370

As a player, Walter and Khyrses work is set.
But our 'placeholders' can be changed.
If you're learning Springsharp, I'd suggest you keep them, and move forward with your own designs

For 1923.5 – 1928.5  I will finish the ships under production,
but new vessels will simply be 'Cruiser' and the tonnage for it.
That way you can work in your own designs.

The last Norse Turn was 1923, HY 1. (6 month turns, HY1 and HY2 ...or 1923.0 and 1923.5).
The Norse have a fairly formidable warfleet.
You had the following in production  then.
I will be updat
2 x Vili class Battleship, completing HY 1, 1926
3 x Valkyrie class light cruisers, completing HY1, 1924.
4 x Jottun class destroyers, completing HY2, 1923
2 x Kadirr class destroyers, completing HY2, 1923
15 x MTB-F (see rules-technology, there's a MTB chart there)
2 x auxiliary minesweepers(see rules-naval construction, design, upkeep for aux rules )
2 x auxiliary tenders completing HY2, 1923
4 x G-Class submarines 1920 750t each, completing HY2, 1923
5 x H-Class submarines 1920 250t each (see rules-technology, there's a Sub  chart there)

Gun Tech
Any gun listed on ships in your encyclopedia is available.
The following are also available.
You have lots of guns

	1915 Naval Tech
	405L50
	250L55		Complete 1924.0
	205L55
	155L55		Complete 1923.5
	120L50
	75L55 AA
	40L60 AA		Complete 1924.0
	New Mountings
1915	405L50	True Quad
1915	405L50	Three gun
1915	405L50	Two gun
1910	405/45	pair of twins
1920	250L55	Three gun
1920	250L55	Two gun
1910	405/45	Two gun
1915	205L55	Three Gun Turret
1915	205L55	Two Gun  Turret
1915	405L50	Three Gun Turret
1920	155L55	Three Gun Turret
1920	155L55	Two Gun  M&H
1910	155L50	Twin Turret
1910	155/50	twin mount & h
1915	120L50	Two gun M&H
1915	120L50	Twin M&H
1915	75L55 AA	Twin M&H
1920	8x 40AA		Complete 1926.0
1920	4x 40AA	Quad
1920	2x 40AA	Twin

Other Tech ..
as of 1923.0 you have pretty average tech for that time.
You will gain a great deal more by 1928.5.

Technology

Naval Artillery

1915: Shells can be 10% over SS default

Naval Propulsion:

1915: Diesel Engines

Capital Ship Architecture:

1914: True Quadruple turrets, Sloped external belts

Aircraft/Seaplane Carrier Architecture:

1918: gunpowder catapults for floatplanes; separate landing and taking-off decks for wheeled aircraft. Early Air-Launched torpedoes. Rapid Consecutive Takeoffs limited to single aircraft.

in progress

1922: hydraulic catapults; full length decks for wheeled aircraft; arrestor wires. Primitive Anti-Shipping Bombs. Rapid Consecutive Takeoffs limited to single squadrons

Cruiser Architecture: For all years, Cruisers with turrets shall have a composite hull strength > 1.0.

1920:  No restriction (high or low) on caliber of turreted guns. Cruisers under 3000 tons may have composite hull strength > 0.75, Cruisers under 8000 tons may have composite hull strength >0.90

Note: effective HY1, 1913: Pre-existing cruisers are grandfathered. If they have a turret and 0.90 hull, presume they have required extra bracing, and the lesson has been learned.

Destroyer, Torpedo Boat, and Motor Torpedo Boat Architecture:

1922

1918: quad TTs, 2000t Type E, F MTB

Mine Warfare:

1908: Early antenna mines. Advanced paravanes, active charges.

Night Fighting & Remote Sensing Devices:

in progress

1918: Illuminating shells with parachute, improved night scopes

Rangefinding, Fire Control and Gunnery:

Refitted to fleet

1918: Spotting planes, Central director stations, long base-length RF - 24km

Torpedo Technologies:

in progress

1918: Advanced warheads. Advanced contact fuses.

Submarines and Countermeasures:

1922

1920

Army & Artillery :

Land Units

1915: Great War era equipment. Advanced Bolt-action rifles. Proliferation of light MGs, sprinkling of heavy MGs. Field mortars. Improvised Short range Anti-Armor equipment. Increase number of heavy guns. Experimental MLRS-style weapons.

Aircraft and Countermeasures:

1918: Up to Historical 1919 aircraft and countermeasures

1922: Up to Historical 1924 aircraft and countermeasures

Amphibious Technology:

1910: X-Lighters, troop transports

Can offensively use 1/3 deployment points / turn. Can launch 5 amphibious invasions / turn.

Logistics:

1910: Motorized Headquarters and communication units

Mechanization:[/u]

1915: Early Armored Cars. Primitive Tanks

Signals/Intelligence:

1912:  Centralized cryptographic institutions, enforced radio discipline, Room 40

History of the Americas–  Since you have a good chunk, figure you should know the backstory...which frankly doesn't matter that much.

Take home message – Much higher original populations, with better tech. The NPC nations are a little behind the player nations, while the areas that were conquered had many small states and about early 1800s tech.  In the game, Player expansion was all  1910+, and the new territories were much much like how 'real world' India was divided up.

One of the major 'keypoints' is that in the 200s, Roman ships trading along the West Coast of Africa set up a trade port in the Cape Verde islands. By the 300s they had more seaworthy vessels, and some were carried by storm to South America. A secretive limited trade was set up. Thus the great plagues of the old world were introduced 1000 years early...along with some new technologies. The Empire of Rome never ...quite...fell, but nearly did. The colony withered and died, lost to time.

The 'legendary' voyages from Mali in the 1300s are then true, spurred by finding literary evidence of the ancient Roman voyage and diagrams of the ship design. They followed the coast north to the Caribbean. This led to contact with the Aztecs and Mayans. The native populations, already resistant to diseases, and with better metallurgy, are too formidible for the Mali to conquer. So trade and conquest of smaller states happened,  introduction of gunpowder, the Muslim religion, and a bit of the triangle trade.  The last collapsed when Indian states became competitive in sugar and cotton.

So you wind up with an Americas much more robust when the Italian leads the Iberian mission to find out where those Mali traders were coming from.


I've attached a range of "Norse" springsharps if you want them , you can play around with how different choices make Springsharp react.

Key point - SS does not model Destroyers well, so we go with 50% comp hull and 50.0+% machinery weight.
Likewise, cruisers were built lighter, so the techs unlocks 3000t cruisers at .75 comp hull, and 8000t at 0.9 hull.

Ok, that's enough for right now.
Folks are willing to help out.
Just ask :)   ...and enjoy

[SmokeGrenadiers]

I've got a question in regards to drydocks, with the Norse being many years dated would it be possible to sim a drydock or 2 being expanded during that time since ships would be getting bigger?

[Kaiser Kirk]

Absolutely.
The Norse do have some long docks,
but tell me the length you'd like to see.

In 1923.0 the longest the Norse had were
3 x 270m in Belfast - 1 dock, 2 slipways
1 x 270m in Quebec

Then they have several 220m
1x 220m Clydebank
1x 220m slip - Dundee
1x 220m slip - Govan

You have 1 drydock on the Great Lakes - a 160m.

[SmokeGrenadiers]

Absolutely.
The Norse do have some long docks,
but tell me the length you'd like to see.

In 1923.0 the longest the Norse had were
3 x 270m in Belfast - 1 dock, 2 slipways
1 x 270m in Quebec

Then they have several 220m
1x 220m Clydebank
1x 220m slip - Dundee
1x 220m slip - Govan

You have 1 drydock on the Great Lakes - a 160m.

So i'd be looking to have 1 slipdock and 1 drydock expanded somewhere between 300M and 320M whatever is possible at this time

[Jefgte]

So i'd be looking to have 1 slipdock and 1 drydock expanded somewhere between 300M and 320M whatever is possible at this time

Monsters are planned.

[Jefgte]

Attached is Walter's last report from 1923.
There you will find lots of informations about Norse.

[SmokeGrenadiers]

So i'd be looking to have 1 slipdock and 1 drydock expanded somewhere between 300M and 320M whatever is possible at this time

Monsters are planned.

No...no... I just wanna uh intimidate my enemies by having big drydocks......yeah that's right.....

[The Rock Doctor]

Absolutely, I would quake at the sight of 1,000 m drydocks.

[TacCovert4]

Absolutely, I would quake at the sight of 1,000 m drydocks.

HMS Habakkuk

[The Rock Doctor]

*Cries in Polish*

[TacCovert4]

*Cries in Polish*

Habakkuk, Aztec Mega-Carrier laid down 1940

Displacement:
   72,984 t light; 75,539 t standard; 83,020 t normal; 89,004 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (1,115.49 ft / 1,115.49 ft) x 131.23 ft x (36.09 / 38.14 ft)
   (340.00 m / 340.00 m) x 40.00 m  x (11.00 / 11.62 m)

Armament:
      40 - 4.72" / 120 mm 55.0 cal guns - 56.91lbs / 25.81kg shells, 400 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1940 Model
     20 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      20 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      64 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 2.11lbs / 0.96kg shells, 4,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1940 Model
     16 x 4 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
      92 - 1.18" / 30.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 0.87lbs / 0.40kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1940 Model
     28 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
     18 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      18 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      Weight of broadside 2,492 lbs / 1,130 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.12" / 130 mm   725.07 ft / 221.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   3.54" / 90 mm   390.39 ft / 118.99 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   3.54" / 90 mm   725.07 ft / 221.00 m   36.09 ft / 11.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.97" / 50 mm   725.07 ft / 221.00 m   30.12 ft / 9.18 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 104.99 ft / 32.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.54" / 90 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.54" / 90 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:         -            -         0.79" / 20 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 7.09" / 180 mm
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 6 shafts, 293,199 shp / 218,726 Kw = 33.00 kts
   Range 20,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 13,465 tons

Complement:
   2,445 - 3,179

Cost:
   £23.715 million / $94.858 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 738 tons, 0.9 %
      - Guns: 738 tons, 0.9 %
   Armour: 20,831 tons, 25.1 %
      - Belts: 7,104 tons, 8.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,591 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armament: 436 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 11,556 tons, 13.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 145 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 7,840 tons, 9.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 28,551 tons, 34.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 10,036 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 15,024 tons, 18.1 %
      - Hull below water: 7,310 tons
      - Hull above water: 7,310 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 20 tons
      - Above deck: 384 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     238,208 lbs / 108,049 Kg = 4,518.0 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 36.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
   Metacentric height 12.8 ft / 3.9 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.558
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 33.40 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  49.21 ft / 15.00 m,  49.21 ft / 15.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  49.21 ft / 15.00 m,  49.21 ft / 15.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  49.21 ft / 15.00 m,  49.21 ft / 15.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  49.21 ft / 15.00 m,  49.21 ft / 15.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      49.21 ft / 15.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 391.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 102,164 Square feet or 9,491 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 153 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 845 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.93
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

74t - 1918 FC
50t - NF Devices x 2
50t - LR Radio x 2
10t - Additional SR Radio

20t - 4 x Catapult

7920t - 72 x 2 Engine Aircraft
5700t - 72 x Single Engine Aircraft

200t - Additional Fire Suppression in Hangar
200t - Additional Damage Control Pumps
100t - Flag Bridge
100t - Flag Accommodations
100t - Fleet Command Air Group
100t - Fleet Air Information Center
100t - Air Conditioning
300t - Aircraft Maintenance Workshops

Flight Deck is 100mm Armored with a 30mm Lower Hangar Floor over Vital Spaces

Main Battery Sponson Deck is at 7m above waterline
AA Battery Sponson Deck is at 12m above waterline

[TacCovert4]

For the record, that's a 7 year build ship......

[Kaiser Kirk]

On a more serious note, I have updated the Norse to 1928.
I have left room for the following placeholders

Smokegrenadiers is in no way "locked" into these vessels.
If he wants a 10,000 ton carrier to start, and to scrap the armored cruiser for a bunch of destroyers- or spend 36,000 on a BC... all doable.


1924.5    "Carrier 1924" Full Flight Deck Carrier (or Flight deck cruiser), 12000tons light
1925.0      "Armored Cruiser 1925", 18000tons light. 

1926.0      "Cruiser 1926"  - 12000 tons light.

1926.0      "Kaupang – fleet supply vessel" - a 14,400 ton merchant to support the fleet. Upgrade to the "Knarr" class. Each 1000tons of "Fleet Support" supports 10,000 tons on extended duty stations. The 8x Knarr alone support 400,000 tons, or 1/3rd of your navy.
Auxiliaries are addressed 2nd to last here : https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7030.0.html

1928.0      Carrier 1928 – either repeat of 1924 or 15000ts
                 Destroyer 1928 - 2000ts   Sonar, DC etc are all under Rules/Ship Design and there's a quote box with ASW tonnages.

1928.5      Battleship/BattleCruiser 1928. – 39,000 ts, 1920 405/50 in 4-G, 3-G, or 2-G turrets.    Variety of AA available. 75/55, 37/60, 25/90, 15/90


Reasoning

Regarding the 1925 & 1926 cruisers.
The last of the Valkyrie light cruisers complete in 1925.5, so you will need a new cruiser class. 
You can do the 8000 ton, 0.9 comp hull to match Messana or Rhein (below) or
field something in the 10-12,000 range with intention to overwhelm them. I was able to come up with an 11,300 ton 9x255/55 32knot vessel which would be very respectable. You could work either way from there.

I would suggest deciding what sort of designs you'd like, and giving them a try.
As a new member, it will be a bit of a plunge into new stuff, folks are helpful...well meaning at least.

If you choose to hold a 'design competition', folks would happily submit ideas to you,
and you can get an idea of different approaches and reverse-engineer things.

With the 1920 Cruiser tech done, there are several options
   A)  3000t , 0.75 comp hull, only M&H
   B)  6000t, 0.90 comp hull, only M&H
   C)  8000t, 0.90 comp hull, only M&H.    The Pensacola class.
History and the player base has deemed that 205/55 guns in "M&H" are possible, but are slow training and loading- which is tolerable for longer ranges. 10% of gun & mount wieght as 'power assist' under misc weight is advised.
   D)  turreted cruisers of any tonnage. This where most 205mm cruisers and all 250mm cruisers wind up.

What are the Opposing Forces in beginning of 1925?
The Roman Messana class 9000t, 8x180L50, 31knots is their newest. Follows the similar Isca 6x180 class. Very much the Roman 'standard' cruiser it seems.
The Dux Antione Szorfaclass 21100t, 8x235L45, 32 knots is recent.   Invincible level armor.

The Wilno Rhein class 7911t, 8x150L45, 32knots is their newest.
There is a pair of 18000t vessels building, 3 barbettes, but you would not know the details yet.
The last pair of 18000t vessels were in 1911 and 8x250L45, 28knots. Which would stand in battle against the  Dux Antione Szorfa

The current Valkyrie class cruiser is decent vs. the Rhein and other Wilno vessels.
There really is a bit of a mismatch with the larger cruisers.

The 18,000 and 12000 ton placeholders should give plenty of  options,
but they can be changed to a series of 8000-9000 ton ships if desired.
You are not locked into anything.

  "1925 Armored Cruiser" 18000 tons light. Potentially for the 250L55.
The 1926 Cruiser...this could be 2x 12000 tons light with turreted 205L55s.
       https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7084.0.html

Important Note : These are placeholders
         Perfectly possible to go back and
            1) change the tonnages  + or -
If only a little more/less tonnage is needed, the numbers of  DDs and Subs be adjusted to compensate.
            2) delete the class.


Questions?
I'd rather expect there may be one..maybe two...or 37...
But it gives SmokeGrenadiers a place to start experimenting.
Jump in ! the waters fine !

[snip]

The Roman Messana class 9000t, 8x180L50, 31knots is their newest. Follows the similar Isca 6x180 class. Very much the Roman 'standard' cruiser it seems.
The Dux Antione Szorfaclass 21100t, 8x235L45, 32 knots is recent.   Invincible level armor.

To further comment on this, since I'm behind. The first of the new Mediolanum class would be in the water for a bit by 1928H2. They are largely similar to Messana with the updates mostly to AA. Dux Antione would still be the newest AC, Gloriosum would still be a bit away from completion.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Thanks for that addition.

There are a couple post-1926 classes, but I was checking my list to see what would be "known" at the time of Norse laydown.
We all get surprised with folks later builds improving on their former :)