Aztec Ship Designs 1929-1934

[TacCovert4]

It is a bummer that you've got a modern, capable, and kind of expensive hull that just doesn't really work for you any more.

Well, they were a stopgap design, you'll note that they were in the big wave of 'we don't have the new modern guns yet but we need certain types of warships now since the whole fleet basically got wiped by Rome' category.  They didn't get engaged in the Mayan war because the Mayans didn't come out to fight my Pacific Fleet.  I guess I can keep the refit Sultan Alis at home and send these with a minor refit into the Pacific as we now have tighter ties with the Parthians, making for two significant pacific powers that we're on quite good terms with and have a need to keep ships in the region to support joint regional security.

[Jefgte]

I find that Baja are very correct.
Balanced weaponry, speed, protection.

=> There are just 100mm to change in DP.

[TacCovert4]

Another thing to consider is that I have 3 of the R-class Razees.  3 double 280mm guns.  But not the armor of a battlecruiser, well not one designed to take on other ships in its class.  Looking forward to refits, these may rate a larger rebuild pulling the 280mm twins in place of triple 240s.

[The Rock Doctor]

Yeah, you might have to prioritize resources.

[TacCovert4]

Thinking forward, and embracing odd ideas, I wanted to get opinions.

The AA effectiveness of a triple or quadruple 120mm turret?  Considering the possibility of a cruiser with 15+ 120/55 DP guns in turrets.

[The Rock Doctor]

I don't recall much historical success with the British triple 4" or the French quad 130, but doesn't make it impossible.   

[TacCovert4]

I don't recall much historical success with the British triple 4" or the French quad 130, but doesn't make it impossible.

She has the same issues as her historical counterparts, that being namely stability.  But she's basically 3 top of the line destroyers in a trench coat, with a flag bridge, floatplanes, and armor......

Mylanta, Aztec Corvette laid down 1935

Displacement:
   9,419 t light; 9,893 t standard; 10,788 t normal; 11,504 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (595.83 ft / 590.55 ft) x 59.06 ft x (19.69 / 20.71 ft)
   (181.61 m / 180.00 m) x 18.00 m  x (6.00 / 6.31 m)

Armament:
      18 - 4.72" / 120 mm 55.0 cal guns - 56.91lbs / 25.81kg shells, 300 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
     4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
      16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 2.07lbs / 0.94kg shells, 4,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1935 Model
     4 x 4 row quad mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      20 - 1.18" / 30.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 0.87lbs / 0.40kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 1,075 lbs / 488 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.54" / 90 mm   472.44 ft / 144.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   118.08 ft / 35.99 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.57" / 40 mm   472.44 ft / 144.00 m   19.59 ft / 5.97 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 45.93 ft / 14.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.76" / 70 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.76" / 70 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 1.57" / 40 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 2.76" / 70 mm, Aft 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 79,731 shp / 59,479 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,611 tons

Complement:
   529 - 688

Cost:
   £3.933 million / $15.732 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 409 tons, 3.8 %
      - Guns: 409 tons, 3.8 %
   Armour: 2,815 tons, 26.1 %
      - Belts: 741 tons, 6.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 539 tons, 5.0 %
      - Armament: 359 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,118 tons, 10.4 %
      - Conning Towers: 58 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,265 tons, 21.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,588 tons, 33.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,369 tons, 12.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 341 tons, 3.2 %
      - Hull above water: 41 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
      - Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,132 lbs / 6,864 Kg = 287.0 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.557
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   10.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   50.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   10.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,339 Square feet or 2,261 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 100 lbs/sq ft or 486 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.13
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

82t - 1930 FC x 2
50t - NF Devices x 2
25t - LR Radio
10t - Additional SR Radio
74t - Flag Bridge

40t - 2 x 5 x 21in HW TT Aft
60t - 2 x Armed Floatplane and Catapult Amidships

[TacCovert4]

And an honestly more reasonable ship.  Less torpedo defense, but that's more to do with the ship being that much lighter than it having less TDS.  The fun part is that almost the entire ship is taken up with magazines and engineering spaces, but they're relatively small and light.  1935 is probably a bit early for them though, as 1938 or so is when aircraft become interesting enough to make a ship like this quite reliable.

Mylanta, Aztec Corvette laid down 1935

Displacement:
   6,725 t light; 7,075 t standard; 7,803 t normal; 8,386 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (530.65 ft / 524.93 ft) x 52.49 ft x (18.70 / 19.78 ft)
   (161.74 m / 160.00 m) x 16.00 m  x (5.70 / 6.03 m)

Armament:
      12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 55.0 cal guns - 56.91lbs / 25.81kg shells, 300 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1935 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
      16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 2.07lbs / 0.94kg shells, 4,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1935 Model
     4 x 4 row quad mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      10 - 1.18" / 30.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 0.87lbs / 0.40kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 725 lbs / 329 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   430.45 ft / 131.20 m   8.69 ft / 2.65 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm     94.46 ft / 28.79 m   8.69 ft / 2.65 m
     Main Belt covers 126 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.57" / 40 mm   430.45 ft / 131.20 m   16.93 ft / 5.16 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 39.37 ft / 12.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.15" / 80 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.15" / 80 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
   Forecastle: 1.26" / 32 mm  Quarter deck: 1.57" / 40 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.15" / 80 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 67,917 shp / 50,666 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,311 tons

Complement:
   414 - 539

Cost:
   £3.007 million / $12.027 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 258 tons, 3.3 %
      - Guns: 258 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 2,031 tons, 26.0 %
      - Belts: 644 tons, 8.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 425 tons, 5.4 %
      - Armament: 127 tons, 1.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 809 tons, 10.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 27 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,929 tons, 24.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,335 tons, 29.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,079 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 171 tons, 2.2 %
      - Hull above water: 13 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 70 tons
      - Above deck: 88 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,944 lbs / 4,057 Kg = 169.6 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.530 / 0.538
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   10.00 %,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Aft deck:   52.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   8.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.31 ft / 5.58 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 123.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,875 Square feet or 1,754 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 79 lbs/sq ft or 388 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.87
      - Longitudinal: 1.23
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

26t - 1930 FC
50t - NF Devices x 2
25t - LR Radio


40t - 2 x 5 x 21in HW TT Aft
30t - 1 x Armed Floatplane and Catapult Amidships

[TacCovert4]

Looking at the AA refit of my two remaining classes of battleships, the Ms and Victories, I've got a decision to make.

As the refit will have to be substantial to replace the 130mm single purpose guns with 120mm DP guns, do I refit the more modern Victory class first?  Or do I refit the Monarch first as she's the oldest of them?  On the one hand it's providing protection to the flagships of the slow battle squadrons.  On the other hand, as I've got to eat the expense of a more expensive refit.....I can replace engines and do other things relatively cheaply within the refit.

[Jefgte]

IMO, replace engines to increase speed is very expensive.
Keep the speed of 24 kts, like the majority of your battleships.
Change 130 QF to 120DP.
For refit, I recommend a recent one, an old one alternating.

[TacCovert4]

IMO, replace engines to increase speed is very expensive.
Keep the speed of 24 kts, like the majority of your battleships.
Change 130 QF to 120DP.
For refit, I recommend a recent one, an old one alternating.

Point.   If I replaced engines it would probably be to get more free tonnage for other things like radar whenever I get there which is soon.  I dont think I could get them to 27kts and it's not worth it for less.

[Jefgte]

... If I replaced engines it would probably be to get more free tonnage for other things like radar whenever I get there which is soon...

Changing engines is very expensive !!!
I prefer to remove a little secondary armament to save a little weight useful for radar or other things.
Eventually, these recovered guns could be used on gunboats.

[TacCovert4]

I realized that I may not have posted the actual production model of the Royal Sovereign BB now under construction:

Royal Sovereign, Aztec Battleship laid down 1930

Displacement:
   58,686 t light; 61,657 t standard; 65,282 t normal; 68,181 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (926.11 ft / 918.64 ft) x 131.23 ft x (32.68 / 33.85 ft)
   (282.28 m / 280.00 m) x 40.00 m  x (9.96 / 10.32 m)

Armament:
      8 - 17.72" / 450 mm 45.0 cal guns - 2,804.10lbs / 1,271.92kg shells, 110 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1930 Model
     2 x 4-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
      1 raised mount
      16 - 4.72" / 120 mm 55.0 cal guns - 56.90lbs / 25.81kg shells, 300 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1930 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck aft
      1 raised mount - superfiring
      24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 2.12lbs / 0.96kg shells, 4,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1930 Model
     4 x 4 row quad mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
      32 - 1.18" / 30.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 0.86lbs / 0.39kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
     32 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 23,422 lbs / 10,624 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.2" / 385 mm   597.11 ft / 182.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      2.36" / 60 mm   597.11 ft / 182.00 m   30.94 ft / 9.43 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 104.99 ft / 32.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.5" / 420 mm   9.84" / 250 mm      15.7" / 400 mm
   2nd:   2.76" / 70 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      2.76" / 70 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 6.54" / 166 mm
   Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm  Quarter deck: 3.94" / 100 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.81" / 300 mm, Aft 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 192,911 shp / 143,912 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,524 tons

Complement:
   2,041 - 2,654

Cost:
   £21.240 million / $84.959 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 4,533 tons, 6.9 %
      - Guns: 4,533 tons, 6.9 %
   Armour: 21,693 tons, 33.2 %
      - Belts: 6,374 tons, 9.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,615 tons, 2.5 %
      - Armament: 3,675 tons, 5.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 9,204 tons, 14.1 %
      - Conning Towers: 825 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 5,846 tons, 9.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 24,290 tons, 37.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,596 tons, 10.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2,324 tons, 3.6 %
      - Hull below water: 1,560 tons
      - Hull above water: 227 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 110 tons
      - Above deck: 427 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     99,764 lbs / 45,252 Kg = 35.9 x 17.7 " / 450 mm shells or 17.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
   Metacentric height 10.1 ft / 3.1 m
   Roll period: 17.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.580 / 0.585
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 30.31 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  27.89 ft / 8.50 m,  26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  26.25 ft / 8.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      22.11 ft / 6.74 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 86,537 Square feet or 8,040 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 236 lbs/sq ft or 1,155 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.05
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

454t - 1918 FC
75t - NF Devices x 3
25t - LR Radio
100t - Flag Bridge
200t - Flag Quarters and Habitability Improvements

100t - Additional DC Equipment
110t - 4 x Armed Floatplane w/ 2 x Catapult
1460t - Electric Drives

Deck is 140mm with an 26mm Splinter
QD is a Box over the Shaft Runs and Steering Gear Only
Belt is 400mm in upper half, tapering to 340mm in lower half.

Range is 11500nm at 14kts

[The Rock Doctor]

Certainly a powerful customer.  Her dimensions will prevent her from using the Trans-Eryka Canal but you know that already.

Is the 40mm layout correct? Should those singles be quads?

The conning tower thicknesses seem kind of oddly intermediate?

[Jefgte]

The "keystone" of the Aztec Navy.