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Mayan Storyline War

Started by Kaiser Kirk, August 06, 2022, 08:36:58 PM

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The Rock Doctor

Quote from: snip on August 09, 2022, 07:16:43 PM
And Rome thinks; All this behavior that we have a land boarder with. Perhaps a problem with a reachable resolution
*Rome gives North American holdings to Vilnius Union*

Kaiser Kirk

While I am inclined to chalk this up to 'honest error'  - I certainly am not going to retroactively remove the provinces...
But ultimately the players are responsible for garrisoning their territories like they are supposed to.

So I also don't view it as reasonable to retcon so there is suddenly a very large force there.
Perhaps a 1-2 LP and DP could be rushed in to put down the rebellion...

But such a small force basically will get steamrollered, the Maya would have no problems
generating a 3:1+ superiority.  Even if you count the forts in that equation 2LP+3Fort x 3 = 15.
The Mayans can manage that. I expect they can devote 20-30DP to this. I will need to actually
do that math this weekend *adds to list*.

Folks  never quite get the war we expect, do they ?
Did they beat the drum slowly,
Did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down,
Did the band play the last post and chorus,
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest

Desertfox

I'm pretty sure I noted putting like 10 LPs down there, let me look around, heck half my fleet is already in the area.
"We don't run from the end of the world. We CHARGE!" Schlock

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20090102.html

Desertfox

Yup here it is:

https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7308.0.html

Order of Battle as of January 1922

Central America
13 Army Units
1 Aircraft Unit
10 Deployment Units
3 Fortification units
"We don't run from the end of the world. We CHARGE!" Schlock

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20090102.html

Desertfox

And the navy units for the same time period:

Costa Rica/Galapagos (Pacific)

BB Shikishima
BB Hatsuse
BB Mikasa
BB Asahi
BC Tsukuba
BC Ikoma
AC Izomo
AZ Azuma
SC Yahagi class x 4
DD Umikaze class x 12
DD Kamikaze class x 12
DD Sakura class x 12
DD Izokaze x 24

AUX Kobayashi Maru class x 2

GB Tenryu
GB Tatsuta
GB Surabaya
GB Makassar
GB Kuma
GB Tama
AUX Aikoku Maru class
ML Tokiwa class x 2
AUX Toph Maru class x 4
AUX Toph Maru II class x 2
AUX Matsu Maru class x 4

BB Tango (Nieposkromiony), ARMY
PC Takasago, DMG, ARMY
PC Kasagi, DMG, ARMY
C(ASW) Chihaya
C(ASW) Unnamed
C(ASW) Unnamed
C(ASW) Unnamed
A1 Class x 16

Aux Jingei I class
MTB 1905 class x 20

SS Type 18 class x 4

Costa Rica (Caribbean)

BB Suwo (San Antonio)
BB Hizen (San Sebastian)
AC Tsugaru
AC Aso
SC Mogami
SC Mikuma
SC Hirado
SC Mogami class
DD Kawakaze class x 24
Aux Seta Maru x 4

ML Suzuya (Ricalde)
ML Soya (Laya)

Aux Jingei II
SS Type 6 class x 4

Aux Jingei I class
MTB 1905 class x 20
"We don't run from the end of the world. We CHARGE!" Schlock

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20090102.html

Kaiser Kirk

Well that's more reasonable amount for that area.

In the name of Fun and everyone's human, we'll take that OOB as where your troops are when this kicks off.

I was going off the turn sheet, which is where the army is supposed to be allocated.
That's what I use to guide if your garrisons are adequate for the # of provinces.
Your colonial IC long ago was adequate.

That gap between 1912 and 1922 is a bit much to, had this war kicked off in 1920-21,
then you had nothing there.  Those provinces technically should have revolted :)


   LAND FORCES               
   Homeland Forces      Deployment Strength         
Description   Location At Beginning of HY   Units   Assigned support         
Regular   North   3            
Regular   Capital   10            
Regular   Central    10            
Regular   South   3            
   Colonial Region Forces               
Regular   Pacific Northwest   4   3         
Regular   Alaska   2   2         
Regular   Pacific   3   2         
Regular   Phillippines North    4   1         
Regular   Phillippines South   4   3         
Regular   Java   4   4         
Regular   Sulawesi   4   3         
Regular   Victoria   4   1         
Regular   New South Wales   7   5         
Regular   South Australia   2   2         
Regular   Queensland   2   2         
Regular   Guyana   4   4         
       70   32         
                  
   Unassigned Deployment Strength      Unassigned support         
   North      0         
   Capital       0         
   Central       0         
   South      0         
                  
                  
   Air Force Deployments               
Description   Location At Beginning of HY   Units   Assigned support (In Colonies)         
Scouting   Homeland   2   0         
Scouting   Phillipines   2   0         
Scouting   Java/Sulawesi   2   0         
Scouting   Central America   2   0         
Scouting   Guyana   1   0         
Scouting   Australia   1   0         
                  
   Fortifications               
   Region Assigned to   Number of Fort points            
   North   2            
   Capital   14            
   Central   12            
   South   6            
   Java   1            
   Guyana   1            
   Costa Rica   3            
   Phillipines North   2            
Did they beat the drum slowly,
Did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down,
Did the band play the last post and chorus,
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest

The Rock Doctor

So the Mayans are driving for the canal.

We'd need to work out what they're doing with their other frontlines.

1) Aztec border:  Are they attacking in earnest, making spoiler attacks/probes to fix Aztec units in place, or hunkering down to wait for a possible Aztec attack?

2) Alabama:  Are they attacking either of Rome or the Union?  Are they reinforcing the territory above and beyond what is necessary to prevent revolts?

3) South America:  Are they attacking the Japanese neighbours in earnest or to pin down Japanese units?  Are they going to move on Union territories?

My gut instincts:

1)  Spoiler attacks; present a threat that the Aztecs must respect, but taking southern Azteca is not a war objective

2)  Minimal reinforcement, possibly against an Aztec naval assault; may not have the resources to do more.

3)  Minimal reinforcement, harass Japanese so the latter don't strip garrison and send them to canal.  If they overrun Japanese Panama and are poised to attack Union territory, then harassing this other side of the Union territory likely makes sense.

TacCovert4

Merely a buildup along the line would pin units.  The Oaxaca line forts are huge and numerous, and the line's not that wide.  I'd anticipate the Mayans more worried about the Aztecs attacking out of Oaxaca than trying to launch spoiling attacks to encourage attacks from there.  Generally speaking, attacking lines manned for decades, with large and deep concrete fortifications and 11in mortars.....is called a bad idea.
His Most Honorable Majesty,  Ali the 8th, Sultan of All Aztecs,  Eagle of the Sun, Jaguar of the Sun, Snake of the Sun, Seal of the Sun, Whale of the Sun, Defender of the Faith, Keeper of the Teachings of Allah most gracious and merciful.

Kaiser Kirk

I believe Jefgte's opinion should be sought.

If I was the Mayans and wishing to attack, and my Tech was 7 years behind the big guys,
I'd want to go after 1922, with some new 1915 equipment at an advantageous time for me.

The skirmish with the Romans and their rapprochement with the Aztecs is 'bad'
to the Mayans.  Waiting doesn't help them much, so now is actually 'good' for them.

I think German's WW1 strategy is the most likely - a knockout blow one way, then pivot and engage the other.

In Tac's points
1) Aztec Border : With the number of Fort points, they should have a pretty good fortified strip, and enough land units to match Atzec DP 1:1.
Both sides can hold the Border lines.
So they would free to 'risk' a large number of DP to drive South, wrap that up, then redeploy internally.

2) Alabama : On my task list for this weekend is breaking down the Mayan Land/Fort/DP and colonial IC.  The point of Alabama for them was a potential port at Mobile, closing the 'back door' of the Havana channel for Aztec trade. The Mayan Bases on the Yucatan, and in Venezuela take care of the rest.

3) South America : Again,on my task list. 

Speculation :

1) So yes- some spoiler attacks on both Aztec and Japanese assets under the banner of 'Revenging the San Diego attack'.
They may try to annoy Parthia too, as we were passing along info. We didn't really want the Mayans next to us.
But classic harbor raid stuff, get any raiders at sea. Make sure they can't be counterstruck in harbor easily.
Perhaps a bait and trap attempt.

The Aztec offensive lift of 8 units ... the Japanese 13.  That is 21... not enough without the Japanese units in-country.

if I was the Mayans, I would guess that as I drove down Central America, the Aztecs and Japanese would scramble to reinforce.
IF the Mayans can conquer it before the reinforcements get there in number, it would be very hard to retake.
So I'd be trying to catch and destroy Aztec/Japanese reinforcement convoys heading there.

I should point out - there are no major ports there.
There are minor ports due to the two IC, but those 2 IC only support 2 units in Central America. The rest need to be fed through ports.
but if you think of Normandy, and the sheer need for throughput of supplies, not having Cherbourg was a big deal. 

I had posted earlier on supply points. I had been thinking like 4-6 supply pts for a coastal IC, and like +16 for a port symbol (as you can conquer a 4x4 region from it).
Even if unlimited, the Japanese and Aztec will need to keep those ports busy and safe from Mayan threats.

For land offensives, the Logistics will trim how many you can send the further from 'home'.

Again, hopefully chip away at that this weekend.

But it may make use of the Wilno ports more critical to the entire result.

2) All of that means the Aztec/Japanese should be too busy to take a stab at Mobile. So they don't need to massively reinforce it.  Probably have 1-2 IC there, some land units and a couple fort points, probably an Air point for recon. Potentially a small naval force (up to Jefgte) or just set up to support one. A cruiser sized drydock.

3) I agree - probably a spoiling attack to fix the Japanese and demonstrate they can bring pressure. 
Conceptually, grabbing that colony was both a 'last chance' to get something, and a way to get a base for trade raiding.

I was originally thinking storywise a major attack on Parthia here would make sense,
but now I am thinking they are smarter than that.
Parthia has a very large offensive amphibious ability, even deducting for colonies I can manage with an offensive amphibious lift of 31 points, and decent sized navy...3x their size.
They may feel it's best not to poke that bear, esp if relations with Rome and Wilno just soured.
Part of that being 'smart' is a medium power not deliberately picking fights with everyone.

other :
Quote
Order of Battle as of January 1922

Central America
13 Army Units
1 Aircraft Unit
10 Deployment Units
3 Fortification units

I will point out that is 14 Land + Air vs 10 deployment + 2 IC = 12
So 2 more DP must be there.
Did they beat the drum slowly,
Did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down,
Did the band play the last post and chorus,
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest

Jefgte

#24
QuoteI believe Jefgte's opinion should be sought.

I don't really study the land scenario and politics too much, I build the Mayan Fleet.

For the outbreak of hostilities, I envisage attacks like Port Arthur 1904 to neutralize some large enemy ships and restore a certain balance.

I think Kaiser's ratios are correct...

"You French are fighting for money, while we English are fighting for honor!"
"Everyone is fighting for what they miss. "
Surcouf

Jefgte

#25
Quote
1) Aztec border:  Are they attacking in earnest, making spoiler attacks/probes to fix Aztec units in place, or hunkering down to wait for a possible Aztec attack?

2) Alabama:  Are they attacking either of Rome or the Union?  Are they reinforcing the territory above and beyond what is necessary to prevent revolts?

3) South America:  Are they attacking the Japanese neighbours in earnest or to pin down Japanese units?  Are they going to move on Union territories?

I studied the map

So, objective of the war:
1 - The Mayans drive the Japanese out of Costa Rica.
2 - The Mayans drive the Japanese out of Guyana & Suriname
------------
Attacking Parthians, Romans or the Union is out of the question. It would be suicide.
Alabama Mayans troops are just on defensive position.
------------
Idea for Tac
Take advantage of the attack of the Mayans against the Japs in Costa Rica and attack the Japs to the north to have other colonies...

"You French are fighting for money, while we English are fighting for honor!"
"Everyone is fighting for what they miss. "
Surcouf

Kaiser Kirk

Quote from: TacCovert4 on August 12, 2022, 07:10:45 AM
Merely a buildup along the line would pin units.  The Oaxaca line forts are huge and numerous, and the line's not that wide.  I'd anticipate the Mayans more worried about the Aztecs attacking out of Oaxaca than trying to launch spoiling attacks to encourage attacks from there.  Generally speaking, attacking lines manned for decades, with large and deep concrete fortifications and 11in mortars.....is called a bad idea.

Agreed - it's a bad Idea, capital I.
Increased rail and radio traffic, strong recon teams,  showing 'something was up'.
Add in some new clearings and roads the Aztec can see in Aerial recon, but to what ?
And I would think making a wooden howitzer battery wouldn't be that hard.

I do not think the Aztec and Japanese will be completely unaware, that would be very unreasonable.

I agree with Jefgte that in the long run, the Mayans may bite off more than they can chew.
But it should be fun finding that out.


Other Notes :

Snip's points design is that forts are Regional.
While we can storyline them as lines or whatever,
they apply throughout the province.
Functionally they are more like the Belgian forts - guarding key points, and providing
successive fall back positions.
Ironically more difficult for armor to make deep penetration runs.

Terrain will be a land combat/supply  factor.
The Conquistadors did report Central America as savanna, not jungle
so that won't be a huge deal for that battle.

Did they beat the drum slowly,
Did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down,
Did the band play the last post and chorus,
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest

Kaiser Kirk

#27
The Maya....

I sat down and tried to figure out the Mayan Side.

They are much smaller than the original PCs, and so have 2 Regions, "Homeland" and "Southern".
The colonies are "Mobile" and "Cumana"

I kept the total number of "points" the same, but moved 3 around.

[Mayan National Region [/u]
The Homeland Region is extremely well known to the Aztec by now.
It has 5 coastal forts, and 17 Land forts.
I expect the Mayans normally keep ~75 Land units here.
making any Aztec thrust overmatched.

The Southern Region has lighter defenses,
4 coast, 6 land.
I expect the Mayans normally keep ~35 units here.
which is in proportion to it's size.
They would have reinforced it once Wilno showed up,
and there has been some new fortification.

For the Strike into Costa Rica:
Increased probing and operations against the Aztec line, Forts would be brought
up to full staffing. Aerial recon increased.
Some additional activity in the South, but carefully keep the very front line units in the south the same.
No new units or call signs.

Behind that shield, move most of the mobile army to the South.
Time a full call up for just after the "go" so the increased radio and rail traffic
doesn't snarl the active force's movement.

That would give a 'Go time' force of
Homeland : 17 forts, 45 Land + Mobile Resv 10 Land+ 10 deployment, 4 air
Southland : 6 forts, 25 Land  + Assault Force (30 Land + 30 Deployment), 6 air.

The 10 unit Mobile Reserve would ensure that it' seen by the Aztecs prewar.
That's proof that there's frontline units staffed and active and ready to assault the Aztec Line.
They would be the one to carry out force recon efforts, shell forts, etc.

Functionally, the reserve allows the Maya to patch a breakthrough, rush to a landing site, etc.
The possibility of a major power is a gamble, but if they have 25 dug in troops and add 10 more,
they can hold off even Wilno's Marine force.

The 30 unit Assault force would be the main assault force.
Only if for some reason the Assault force is almost at victory, but can't seal the deal would the Reserve be considered.



Cautionary :  I thought a fair bit about how to do land combat in this game. I've even written some down somewhere.  I've just been busy with lots of other stuff to flesh it out.
There will likely be a "max troops/province" factor added, along with considerations for supply. So those 30 may not "Fit" all at once, though the frontage is 2 provinces wide.


Colonies
The Maya took Cumana  In HY1 1913.
The Maya took Mobile in HY 1 1914

They have built infrastructure 'backbones' in each, allowing them to supply the border areas from the ports.
They maintain heavy garrisons as they need sufficient force to ensure the locals welcome their enlightenment.

One may presume it is sufficient, in conjunction with the coastal defenses,
to defeat a potential Aztec Amphibious force.

The Mayans are aware of the Japanese neighbors to Cumana, and have a sufficient force there
to allow reinforcements to arrive.

These forces reduce the number of deployment points available.

They have built up naval bases at both Port symbols, but not a Pensacola.
These feature built up coastal defenses and a couple drydocks each to support an aerial recon unit and naval unit.
They have established light fortifications in the South American Interior, controlling the transport routes.

Japanese Costa Rica
Looking over the map,
There are no major natural harbors.
With 2 IC, there should be some developed minor port(s).

But historically.. On the Caribbean side, there was a paucity.
Limon would be one, created in 1852.
Puerto Veijo de Talamanca "old harbor" the other on the coast.
From Google earth, it's plain the "old harbor" is a shallow bay
with an islet in the center, restricting length to ~80m...if a raft.

So Limon has to be the port on the Caribbean side.
It is ~70nm from the Mayan Border, but a comfortable 500nm from the nearest sheltered Anchorage in South Region.
Limon port has a natural point, with a breakwater extending south,
creating a sheltered area 1000m wide with piers 350m long.
The Japanese have no naval infrastructure here.

To the Southeast is the approach bay.
Ships can approach without pilot from the SE to ~5000m away.
Unmineably deep water starts roughly 5-10,000m away.
However, the breakwater will not obscure sighting from the East
Did they beat the drum slowly,
Did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down,
Did the band play the last post and chorus,
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest

TacCovert4

Sorry everyone, I had hoped to get something done with this this week....however, air and stupidity are two things we aren't running out of......I'm running on 3 hours of sleep regularly after getting called out multiple times this week. 
His Most Honorable Majesty,  Ali the 8th, Sultan of All Aztecs,  Eagle of the Sun, Jaguar of the Sun, Snake of the Sun, Seal of the Sun, Whale of the Sun, Defender of the Faith, Keeper of the Teachings of Allah most gracious and merciful.

Jefgte

I have nearly finish the Excel board of the Maya fleet.
I will post it soon.

Jef  ;)
"You French are fighting for money, while we English are fighting for honor!"
"Everyone is fighting for what they miss. "
Surcouf